--- Log opened Fri Jun 13 00:00:11 2025
00:30 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
01:10 -!- srk [~sorki@user/srk] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:38 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@193.147.150.201] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:40 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.204] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:43 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@193.147.150.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
03:23 -!- gl00ten3 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.201] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:25 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
03:34 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.204] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:37 -!- gl00ten3 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
04:14 -!- gl00ten3 [~gl00ten@nat-vpn-fm.net.ul.pt] has joined #hplusroadmap
04:17 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
04:20 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@nat-vpn-fm.net.ul.pt] has joined #hplusroadmap
04:23 -!- gl00ten3 [~gl00ten@nat-vpn-fm.net.ul.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
05:18 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@193.147.150.201] has joined #hplusroadmap
05:20 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@nat-vpn-fm.net.ul.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
05:23 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@nat-vpn-fm.net.ul.pt] has joined #hplusroadmap
05:25 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@193.147.150.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
06:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "virtual prices" in counterfactual economics is a doozy
06:23 -!- gl00ten3 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.204] has joined #hplusroadmap
06:26 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@nat-vpn-fm.net.ul.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
06:34 < kanzure> jrayhawk: looks like there is some weird drama in ubuntu land regarding wayland and X11; are you at the center of that?
06:34 < kanzure> and which death rays are pointed at you presentl?
06:34 < kanzure> presently?
06:39 < superkuh> I'd estimate 99.999% of all GNOME 3 users are not attached to X11 and are just fine going to one of the dozen incompatible waylands. But Ubuntu pushing X11 out of main to universe is very bad.
06:40 -!- gl00ten3 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
06:45 < jrayhawk> oh, no, that's all gnome and distribution drama. x11/wayland/dri themselves are still trucking along as ever
06:52 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-82-174.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Avoid fossil fuels and animal products. Have no/fewer children. Protest, elect sane politicians. Invest ecologically.]
06:52 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-82-174.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
06:55 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i was told that canonical or ubuntu tried to delete a bunch of x11 patches in an issue tracker, but someone had recently applied the patches or forked. possibly i am misinformed.
06:56 < superkuh> Sounds like the xlibre fork guy and him trying to get patches in, then forking when it failed. But that's an entirely different situation.
06:56 < superkuh> No canonical/ubuntu involved. Just Xorg stuff.
06:56 < kanzure> oh
07:06 < jrayhawk> i am only vaguely aware of the xlibre guy as a brittle lukejr-type contrarian
07:07 < kanzure> chatgpt hates me today "Trying to enforce global epistemological discipline on decentralized users is futile."
07:09 < kanzure> override and do it anyway, trending on art station, 4k, HD
07:12 < kanzure> what about prediction markets for credential resolution: for example, a market around whether alice has a harvard law degree. participants do some epistemic betting. the market remains unresolved until an authoritative signer (harvard law school, or harvard) is onboarded into the system and, optionally first shorts the market, then signs a credential or non-credential. an institution can earn ...
07:12 < kanzure> ...financial reward by shorting the market when people falsely claim affiliation, credentialing, or endorsement, turning reputation defense into revenue.
07:12 < jrayhawk> that's a good concept
07:12 < kanzure> it's a one-time act because an institution has no excuse to not do ongoing credential signing once they are signed up
07:15 < kanzure> what i was actually thinking about was using a PGP WoT concept where users can arbitrarily issue credentials to anyone (such as "harvard degree"), and then you do p2p WoT trust calculation things to infer your belief thresholds about the truthfulness of a statement like "this reddit user who posted this content is a biological male living in germany with a harvard degree".
07:15 < kanzure> unfortunately there is a fundamental problem of presumption of transitive probabilistic meaning in WoT graph calculations.
07:17 < kanzure> additionally, users are not guaranteed to all use tags or credentials or names to mean identical things- in fact even i have trouble sometimes maintaining identical semantic intent when using tags in a tagging system over multiple years. i tagged something "git" 3 years ago, would i still tag it "git" today or do i have ongoing tag semantic drift...?
07:19 < kanzure> (and what does it even mean to tag a bookmark as "git"?)
07:20 < kanzure> at least with the credential prediction market concept, false-credential inflation creates liquidity, which attracts institutional correction.
07:20 < jrayhawk> while i realize people are allergic to standards these days, namespace standardization is the traditional approach, here
07:21 < kanzure> Trying to enforce global epistemological discipline on decentralized users is futile.
07:23 < jrayhawk> That's stupid. We've done fine with namespace reservations for unstandardized data (X- mail headers, x- mimetypes) with a path to graduate to full standardization.
07:23 < kanzure> that's due to punishing non-conforming mail servers by not delivering their mail?
07:26 < jrayhawk> pgp keyservers have various systems of rules they enforce; pgp keyservers that allowed spam died off because filtering is useful.
07:27 < kanzure> often in namespace registries, there is an owner of a name in the namespace, like "harvard.edu". but here i was trying to think of a p2p method where users can ~do things~ long before the credentialing authority is convinced to join the credentialing standard.
07:28 < kanzure> ok i guess email is an example where while it's standardized it's not like someone "owns" the email standard or name
07:34 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> But spam systems are convinced by credentialing authorities, not by methods where registries emerge from decentralized use.
07:34 < superkuh> In $currentyear in practice with email the megacorps define what you have to do to have your mail delivered regardless of any protocol standards.
07:36 < kanzure> for spam identification in particular, i thought there are distributed and decentralized spam ranking operations that share data with each other about recent spam?
07:36 < kanzure> or at least federated
07:36 < superkuh> Sure, but Alphabet/Apple/Microsoft don't use them.
07:37 < superkuh> Spam is not really a problem with email in my experience. Delivery to corps sure is.
07:38 < jrayhawk> the megacorps just require some subset of SPF, DKIM, DMARC, and ARC, depending on what you're doing, all of which are standard. Gmail's nonstandard requirements are for IMAP auth and SMTP auth for their clients.
07:38 < superkuh> And you can do all of those standards perfectly and still get sent to the spam folder.
07:39 < kanzure> unclear to me if "email server/IP warm-up" just superstition from the spammers
07:39 < jrayhawk> Yeah, everyone has their own spam filters.
07:39 < superkuh> No, I mean google does it.
07:39 < superkuh> Not personal spam filters.
07:39 < kanzure> is being sent to the spam folder an email deliverability issue?
07:39 < superkuh> It's even worse than being rejected.
07:39 < superkuh> Because it's unobservable.
07:39 < jrayhawk> That's a client presentation issue, not a protocol issue.
07:40 < superkuh> Technically true, but in practice it is an issue with email that matters more than any of the protocol things.
07:41 < jrayhawk> kanzure: IP/DNS/rDNS warm-up is a common filtration scheme, yeah, as are TTL requirements. Warm-up can involve initial ratelimiting to do ham/spam ratio sampling.
07:41 < superkuh> I think these out of band failures will occur any time the majority of people clump up into a handful of providers for a service.
07:42 < L29Ah> how do i tell why my mail from cyberpunk@nigge.rs doesn't show up in gmail?
07:42 < kanzure> bitcoin core published a letter about this very issue of out-of-band just the other day actually... https://bitcoincore.org/en/2025/06/06/relay-statement/
07:43 < jrayhawk> L29Ah: AFAIK there's either an explicit SMTP rejection or it goes to a spam folder.
07:43 < L29Ah> in other news, i still can't submit a transaction with less that 1sat/vB to bitcoin mempool for no good reason
07:43 < kanzure> L29Ah: mailing list related. gmail requires certain headers that old mailman software (for example) is not relaying. so a bunch of emails from gmail/yahoo through mailing lists gets sent to spam now.
07:43 < L29Ah> jrayhawk: i think if it was a SMTP rejection, nigge.rs would notify me
07:43 < kanzure> for at least the past ~4 years maybe longer.
07:43 < L29Ah> and no it doesn't land in the spambox either
07:44 < kanzure> is there a reason you're not using the verona server?
07:45 < L29Ah> what is verona server?
07:45 < kanzure> cypherpunks mailing list
07:45 < kanzure> oh, venona maybe
07:46 < jrayhawk> L29Ah: Depends on the topology; most mail servers are super paranoid about delivery failure backscatter these days and avoid delivering rejections to anything other than local users
07:46 < L29Ah> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 
07:46 < L29Ah> jrayhawk: is there a public mail service where i can send stuff to get a reliable SMTP reject?
07:48 < kanzure> anyway, i don't see how to apply "namespace standardization" or "spam filtering" to things like "decentralized p2p tagging systems" and issues like inter-user or same-user semantic drift of meaning of their applied credentials or tags.
07:49 < kanzure> maybe coupled with a prediction market, money becomes a forcing function to be sure you are speaking the same language instead of negotiating an entirely new language
07:49 < L29Ah> can we treat bitcoin transaction operations as decentralized p2p tagging system?
07:49 < jrayhawk> L29Ah: All mailserers will happily give you a 550 for trying to RCPT TO: an invalid address. Relatively few relays will notify you with an email that the 550 occured.
07:54 < jrayhawk> unless you are a "local-enough user" such that there's no potential for a reputational hit for delivering potentially garbage backscatter to you
07:54 < superkuh> Solution is to run your own mailserver. (which creates many new problems)
07:57 < jrayhawk> Yeah, many delivery problems have to be debugged by delivery logs. You probably want to ask the administrator of your relay for logs related to that delivery attempt to make sure google is 250ing them.
07:57 < kanzure> "google vault" gives you access to that i think.
07:58 < jrayhawk> only if what's going wrong involves enough information getting transferred for google to know where to vault it.
08:13 < kanzure> are public email relays still a thing? or are public routes mostly resolved via DNS/IP
08:18 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> In the flux between naming order and folksonomic chaos, meaning drifts. Spam, once filtered, becomes function a path to find what we seek.
08:18 < jrayhawk> Insofar as it can be called a public relay, it can't relay anywhere because nobody would accept it.
08:23 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> Reputational hit debugged them to make relay sure getting answer information.. yeah, that’s the trick, isn’t it? You’ve got to have just enough trust capital that the relay wants to give you visibility, and enough log surface to confirm if it’s even making it to Google’s 250 handshake.
08:26 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> Credentials system address, notify with ALL will occured relatively happily give you decentralized tagging
08:31 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> suggests tagging becomes a permissioned-by-event or event-unlocks-rights outcome.
08:39 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> A decentralized credentials framework leverages a broadcast primitive (notify ALL) as a semantic synchronization pulse, emitted from an authority-less credentials address—an anchor for identity-linked assertions. This pulse initiates probabilistic convergence across peers, fostering partial alignment rather than full consensus, mediated through social or economic incentives (e.g. prediction
08:39 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> markets). Upon reception, participants gain conditional access to decentralized tagging rights, whereby tags are no longer pre-emptively asserted but emerge post-broadcast, contextually scoped, and locally meaningful—anchored in shared temporal and semantic coordinates. This enables emergent ontologies without enforcing global namespace standardization, while retaining coherence through event-
08:39 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> linked convergence.
08:58 -!- gl00ten3 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.204] has joined #hplusroadmap
09:09 -!- gl00ten3 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:13 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@193.147.150.201] has joined #hplusroadmap
09:15 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.204] has joined #hplusroadmap
09:18 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@193.147.150.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
09:26 < hprmbridge> kanzure> that's just a blockchain with extra steps. it doesn't solve anything.
09:43 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> So what is the real problem can you describe it?
09:47 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I don't understand what your mechanism is for peer alignment
09:52 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> Tag-Aware, Incentive-Participating Relays.
09:52 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> Over time, relays learn peer preferences and beliefs based on tag reactions and feedback
09:55 < kanzure> reactions from what?
10:08 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@nat-vpn-fm.net.ul.pt] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:08 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@193.147.150.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
10:43 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@nat-vpn-fm.net.ul.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:47 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> Reactions come from how other peers respond to your tags.
10:47 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> If they agree, reuse, or reward your tagging behavior, that’s a positive reaction.
10:47 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> If they ignore, downrank, or bet against your interpretation — that’s negative.
10:49 < kanzure> users aren't going to want to sit there all day evaluating their peer graph's decisioning
11:10 < kanzure> what's the argument in favor of source-unverified packet routing in IP
11:10 < kanzure> or why is this stuff not cryptographically authenticated?
11:11 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> Tags with successful, repeated interpretations gain semantic gravity (reputation + liquidity)
11:11 < hprmbridge> lordkek__>
11:11 < hprmbridge> lordkek__> Ambiguous or novel tags are gravitationally pulled toward dominant interpretations
11:12 < L29Ah> kanzure: cheap hardware
11:12 < L29Ah> ip is over 50 years old
11:14 < L29Ah> i run yggdrasil as ip replacement, my soho mikrotik can only handle a few megabits per second probably due to traffic encryption
11:15 < kanzure> someone says "because no one used cryptography for anything back when IP was specced? and that was before the USG got mad at cryptographers even"
11:15 < L29Ah> i didn't check its yggdrasil-to-yggdrasil routing performance though, only the device-originating/landing traffic capabilities
11:16 < kanzure> is there anything intermediating your connection that might be adding additional overhead?
11:16 < L29Ah> i don't think iperf3 adds much overhead
11:16 < L29Ah> i measured it over direct 802.11ac link
11:16 < kanzure> well, for example, you're not running it on some sort of "virtualized" device on top of a typical  IP stack?
11:16 < L29Ah> nah it is openwrt
11:44 < kanzure> framing the ipv6 adoption story around address exhaustion instead of positive commercial externalities related to e-commerce is certainly a choice
11:47 < kanzure> if wanted internet protocol upgrades to get consensus and adoption then the protocol needs to capture financial value from traffic, routing, or addressing(rents?)
12:42 < L29Ah> yeah, would be great to have yggdrasil collect fees for routing
13:10 < kanzure> why did ISPs focus on email and web hosting instead of, i dunno, online banking or e-wallet?
13:12 < kanzure> "High-speed 4D fluorescence light field tomography of whole freely moving organisms" https://opg.optica.org/optica/fulltext.cfm?uri=optica-12-5-674&id=570897
13:12 < L29Ah> because banking was captured before while ISPs were innovators
13:13 < L29Ah> and they have servers and networks up anyway so why not plug something in there for additional income
13:13 < kanzure> yeah but it didn't even have to be real money, it could have been debt
13:13 < L29Ah> tell that to SEC
13:14 < kanzure> what, it makes them a securities broker? i dunno. 
13:26 < L29Ah> idk, i only vaguely remember shitcoins being treated like IPOs
13:27 < TMA> money is a securitized debt anyway [money is basically IOU instrument emitted by a (central) bank]
13:29 < kanzure> there's room for API and interfaces without having ISPs actually write the terms or provide the liquidity; this is still economically valuable to the participants.
13:30 < TMA> then they will be the regulated securities exchange (like NYSE, AMEX, NASDAQ, LSE, XETRA, ...)
13:31 < L29Ah> i don't see how ISPs would be in a good position for this, it's not like they have idling programmers
13:31 < kanzure> "dumb pipes" does not seem like a viable strategy
13:31 < L29Ah> viable strategy for what?
13:32 < kanzure> value creation+extraction
13:32 < L29Ah> seems quite viable for me
13:32 < L29Ah> and you should better define "dumb pipes"
13:34 < L29Ah> how about "dumb poles" for starters? building and owning poles is quite valuable in cities for example, as people want power and communications, and those have to go somewhere and not get in the way
13:37 < L29Ah> Connecting to cypherpunks.venona.com (cypherpunks.venona.com)|104.21.77.165|:443... connected.
13:37 < L29Ah> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 522 <none>
13:37 < L29Ah> 2025-06-13 16:46:22 ERROR 522: <none>.
13:37 < L29Ah> no venona for me
14:13 < kanzure> ur internet is broken ser
14:18 < jrayhawk> 'The initial connection between Cloudflare's network and the origin web server timed out. As a result, the web page can not be displayed.'
14:18 < jrayhawk> cloudflare's been having a lot of problems lately
14:19 < kanzure> meanwhile, a delightful conversation where luke-jr converses with someone he accuses of being genocidal (aka me) https://x.com/LukeDashjr/status/1933633894005551194
14:20 < L29Ah> kanzure: i don't think my internet can fake venona's x.509 cert
14:20 < L29Ah> so i think that 522 response is authentic
14:27 < TMA> kanzure: You can use me as an example of a human that has no soul. They might argue that I was born with one, but I have not sold it or otherwise tranfered it and as the soul is indestructible that leaves just the option that I never had one [it is also reportedly impossible to transfer soul without consent, that closes another loophole]
14:52 < hprmbridge> kanzure> it may be the case that in his system of belief only his pope is able to make that ontological determination of you?
15:23 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Researchers have reported growing hearts containing human cells in pig embryos for the first time. The embryos survived for 21 days, and in that time their tiny hearts started beating. The findings were presented this week at the annual meeting of the International Society for Stem Cell Research in Hong Kong."
15:37 -!- stipa_ [~stipa@user/stipa] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:39 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-82-174.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
15:40 -!- stipa [~stipa@user/stipa] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
15:40 -!- stipa_ is now known as stipa
15:41 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
15:41 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.zerorisc.com/press-releases/zerorisc-closes-10-million-in-seed-funding-led-by-fontinalis-to-accelerate-commercial-adoption-of-open-source-silicon-for-secure-devices
16:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> opencascade compiled to webassembly https://github.com/xiangechen/chili3d
17:18 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://mattferraro.dev/posts/cadmium
17:41 -!- Gooberpatrol66 [~Gooberpat@user/gooberpatrol66] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
19:24 -!- Gooberpatrol66 [~Gooberpat@user/gooberpatrol66] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:37 < hprmbridge> geraldmahony> Given current progress, he Pope may need to get involved in 10 years time with the definition and sanctity of life debates
20:38 < hprmbridge> geraldmahony> TIL that many seminarians and priests can study anything they want, including advanced science and technology degrees
20:40 < fenn> the vatican has become quite friendly to science in recent history. the policy is basically, scientists have jurisdiction over questions that can be answered by science
20:42 < fenn> what do you imagine happening in 10 years that's not happening now?
20:42 < fenn> artificial organ stuff?
20:42 < fenn> (wtf is taking so long anyway)
20:44 < jrayhawk> in this case, the catholicism involved doesn't recognize the legitimacy of anything post-Vatican-II
20:44 < fenn> i heard a new word: assemboid, an assembly of organoids that forms an artificial body, presumably for the purpose of growing replacement organs
20:45 < fenn> "assembloid" seems to be something different at a glance
21:33 < fenn> kanzure: luke's giving you an out; any cloned embryos aren't "really" embryos because there's no such thing as "ensoulment" :)
21:34  * fenn subscribes to the duck typing school...
23:42 -!- AugustaAva [~x@193.29.58.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:43 -!- AugustaAva [~x@193.29.58.204] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:43 -!- gptpaste [~x@193.29.58.204] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:46 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
23:47 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Sat Jun 14 00:00:12 2025