--- Log opened Tue Jun 17 00:00:14 2025
00:17 < fenn> with laser direct imaging?
00:17 < hprmbridge> nmz787> yeah
00:19 < hprmbridge> nmz787> apparently I never uploaded the PCB images https://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/NEJE_Laser_Etcher/
00:20 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I have them... I just need to log in
00:24 < fenn> i don't know why i am even thinking about this... i ran across some thread where someone was making tiny boards for badUSB cables and complaining about end mills getting dull
00:24 < hprmbridge> nmz787> oh man, may 2016
00:51 <+gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/laser_etcher/commit/?id=68830a20 nmz787: Adding NEJE laser results of DIY PCB with direct-write laser exposure >> http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/NEJE_Laser_Etcher/first_pcb_experiment/spincoater.jpg
00:55 <+gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/laser_etcher/commit/?id=97825462 nmz787: forgot dir in paths >> http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/NEJE_Laser_Etcher/
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00:58 <+gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/laser_etcher/commit/?id=989d1cd4 nmz787: add linebreaks after imgs, add TOC >> http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/NEJE_Laser_Etcher/
00:58 < hprmbridge> nmz787> fenn, there you are sir
00:59 < hprmbridge> nmz787> that only diverted me for 40 minutes...
01:29 < fenn> thank you. the slop gods appreciate your contribution to the overmind
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03:26 < hprmbridge> kanzure> weizmann institute got hit :/
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04:01 < hprmbridge> nmz787> are we fans?
04:01 < hprmbridge> nmz787> (of anything particular)
04:04 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weizmann_Institute_of_Science
04:04 < hprmbridge> nmz787> affinity chromatography, ribosome structure, and early ripening melons... mmmm
04:29 < fenn> nobody got hurt
04:33 < fenn> some names that jump out at me from the list of faculty: shafi goldwasser (zero knowledge proofs), jacob hanna (embryo cloning), henry markram (brain tissue simulation), adi shamir (RSA encryption), 
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05:18 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.compactmag.com/article/can-natalism-be-normal/
05:23 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "All-atom protein sequence design using discrete diffusion models" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.06.13.659451v1
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08:14 < RangerMauve> fenn Radicle's p2p is just for connecting to others computers to treat them as git remotes. there's no automatic sharing of data. I think the only thing that really worked like that was freenet.
08:26 < kanzure> "retroactive public goods grants" is apparently something from the ethereum community about a layer 2 system (optimism) which captures some network fees and allocates them to this RPGG funding mechanism. seems like it should suffer from free riding? and why isn't it just called an award??
08:26 < kanzure> or s/award/prize
08:26 < kanzure> s/prize/impact prize
08:41 < RangerMauve> Regarding the natalist thing. I feel like the economic conditions of the working class is underappreciated. Most folks I know that don't want kids do so out of it being too expensive or not wanting to bring kids into a dying world that will work them to death with no opportunities.
08:42 < RangerMauve> Folks won't be having more kids so long as billionaires and plutocrats keep destroying peoples lives
08:43 < kanzure> how does that explain why lower income people have more births?
08:43 < kanzure> it seems directly contrary to the observed births
08:45 < RangerMauve> I'm mostly in contact with middle class folks 🤷 I think in the case of lower income people the lack of education makes them take more risks. A lot of folks I know from lower income households with lots of kids hated their upbringing due to being so resource constrained
08:45 < kanzure> everyone thinks they are middle class, it's absurd
08:45 < RangerMauve> Let me be more specific, 40-100k household income
08:45 < kanzure> that's below the poverty line in california
08:46 < RangerMauve> Err, I am in Canada. 😅
08:46 < kanzure> oh sorry, in san francisco the poverty line is $110k, rest of california is lower
08:47 < RangerMauve> Yeah the big cities seem like hell to live in costs wise
08:48 < RangerMauve> My experience is also subjective and relative to my pocket of human experience
08:48 < kanzure> anyway, the collapsing birth rate is a complex problem with many complex causes and effects; there are also weird confounding data points like the relative birth rate between different economic classes is in a non-obvious direction- and this happens across many different variables.
08:48 < RangerMauve> Oh also teen pregnancy is down from what I recall
08:49 < kanzure> which isn't to say it's unsolvable or inexplicable, of course
08:49 < kanzure> although i do personally believe that there is massive inertia behind this trend and reversing trends of this size and scale can be uhh difficult
08:50 < RangerMauve> Yeah. Personally I'm into what some countries are doing to pay new parents to incentivise childbirth
08:50 < kanzure> https://x.com/morebirths seems to be a fan of social and policy interventions to try to change the trend. he posts reasonably interesting graphs and data points about the collapsing global birth rates.
08:51 < kanzure> to my knowledge only hungary is paying a reasonable amount to parents- everything else is like a tax incentive of a few hundred bucks or a thousand dollars, which does not seem to cause a massive increase in birth rate
08:51 < kanzure> i am less interested in policy interventions and i think we can more directly solve the problem by building the human gigafactory: https://diyhpl.us/wiki/human-gigafactory/
08:53 < kanzure> large scale vertical integration of human reproduction and offspring development, at scale, can generate billions of humans if we put some effort into it
08:53 < RangerMauve> Are all the humans going to be slaves, though? Brave new world style
08:54 < RangerMauve> I feel like if we want slaves we should just use machines for it
08:54 < kanzure> is that a philosophical question about the nature of human existence? or are you asking if the human gigafactory requires enslavement?
08:54 < RangerMauve> More like would the produced humans have agency to the level current humans do (in the better circumstances)
08:55 < RangerMauve> Oh I just read the thing
08:55 < RangerMauve> That makes sense
08:56 < RangerMauve> Could probably get some christian breeder cults in on it
09:05 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ah, okay. yeah I think there are at least several remaining reasons why people would make children besides coercion or enslavement. I don't think things are so dire that the only reproducing subset of the human population are those who are coerced into doing so.
09:15 < RangerMauve> Yeah, I agree. Also still lots of folks reproducing around successfully. Also the IVF options helped some pals of mine have several kids in their 40s, even
09:36 < kanzure> arguments over the internet ought to be retroactively replaced by summaries or conclusions. preserve the original argument for those who are curious, while saving billions of human hours from reading meandering argumentation. why get invested in reading an argument where none of the participants felt it necessary to summarize its conclusions or highlights?
09:43 < RangerMauve> My conclusions: I still feel that ecomonic approaches could use more of a go. Focused human breeding initiatives like your gigafactory idea seem reasonable. The plans to make IVF more accessible mentioned in the article seem like a good idea.
09:48 < juri_> howabout making society more liveable? me and my wife just took surgical options to prevent kids, because have you looked at this world?
09:49 < RangerMauve> Yeah big +1 to that. That's what I mean regarding seeing folks not having kids due to social conditions
09:50 < RangerMauve> I'm guessing a human gigafactory would need a major focus on having quality of life be at a level that folks wouldn't be in dispair and want to focus on child rearing more
09:50 < juri_> and before you go all "maybe you're not the type who should be having kids": I'm here for $reallysmart reasons, and my wife's grandfather literally shared an office with einstein. we're no dummies.
09:52 < juri_> thank you for having a discussion about population that includes lifestyle incentives.
10:00 < RangerMauve> Kind of tangential but I'm all for non-human biological machines being integrated in more of the world. The book Liliths Brood by Octavia Butler was pretty inspriational. Why have concrete and metal pipes when living structures could self heal and self grow
10:02 < juri_> you might even get better material properties; right now what we construct with has a low price, and hense low complexity. with a biological replacement, development costs will be higher, but you will get a similar 'complex features are free' like 3d printing.
11:26 < kanzure> where is that article that was talking about how central planning communism doesn't work because it is computationally intractable?
11:27 < kanzure> it's in the backlog somewhere, i think, but i have lost it multiple times now
11:31 < L29Ah> the gigafactory could work without enslavement if we lived longer and had longer-term global goals
11:32 < L29Ah> but yes enslavement makes things like rapid genetically improved population easier
11:33 < L29Ah> anyway enslavement isn't going to happen until china takes over the world, and then you are the slave in a gigafactory
11:36 < kanzure> juri_: "how about making society more liveable?" lack of universalized "liveability" is a feature, not a bug, and enables robust response to dynamic conditions; encourages niche transformation and development- either by adapting niches to suite various human needs, or adapting human forms into more survivable forms.
11:37 < kanzure> L29Ah: you can get rapid genetic enhancement without enslavement.
11:38 < L29Ah> kanzure: yes, and it takes about as much societal changes as the accepted enslavement
11:38 < L29Ah> if not more
11:38 < kanzure> explain? what societal change?
11:39 < L29Ah> christians and muslims were slavers just fine, never transhumans
11:41 < kanzure> my request for the central planning paper is actually a separate topic, i hadn't read the backlog when i sent that message. i am curious to see if centralized planning of social networking graph growth is computationally infeasible, better/worse than random, or otherwise viable.
11:43 < kanzure> there aren't that many signals that are used by humans to infer social graph (i, j) connection potential value before striking up a conversation, although predictions of long-term value may prove to be more difficult and/or no accessible surface signals to predict those long-term outcomes.
11:51 < RangerMauve> Given human connections are topologically small world networks I imagine the hubs in the social graph are where the value filtering happens the most. e.g. they will likely be around people that they value more and thus will connect them to more people as a result
11:52 < RangerMauve> Then it's a matter of folks already being social butterflies and striking up convos more often and having more dead ends than the average person  that'd socialize less
11:53 < RangerMauve> Main reason I go to conferences is to boost my social graph and reach across the graph
11:53 < RangerMauve> Where people are is a great social signal is what I mean by that
11:59 < kanzure> that's what people tell themselves about conferences but i'm not sure it plays out that way
12:00 < kanzure> at least at a conference random selection is technically better than pure random sampling over ~all of human society, but yeah it's still random even in that context
12:00 < kanzure> instead, i am considering a sampling protocol where you have an exploration phase and exploitation phase so that at a conference of N participants you don't need O(N) meetings
12:01 < RangerMauve> Personally I've had great success with regards to finding work, learning new techniques to apply, and inspiring other projects with techniques they haven't heard of
12:01 < kanzure> exploratory groups of say size n=5 or n=6 through iterated rounds then make (i, j) pairwise recommendations based on their prior interactions in the exploratory phase
12:01 < kanzure> each round of exploratory group is arranged by algorithm to get a good distribution of the overall set of participants
12:01 < RangerMauve> It's more like log(n) because of the small world networks. The super spreaders help facilitate introductions and they talk to each other more
12:01 < kanzure> and the result is a logarithmic sampling of the whole set of attendees without any individual needing O(n) meetings
12:02 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/chatgpt/social-networking.txt
12:04 < RangerMauve> unconference style meetings help get towards this IMO. Especially if you encourage folks to attend sessions with folks you haven't talked to yet. + plenty of hallway track and post con dinner socializing
12:05 < kanzure> it's absurd that linkedin has the largest business social networking site in the world and they choose to monetize it for recruiting instead of generative/predictive (paid) social networking
12:05 < RangerMauve> I'm down to bring up ideas with organizers or get small groups of folks to implement some of these protocols and report back. Gonna be at a conf in switzerland next month which should be pretty freeform and I'm pretty connected to the local meetup scene.
12:07 < kanzure> shrug, fine with me... there should be more experimentation at conferences anyway. the number of times i've received a quality survey after a conference is uhh very low i think zero?
12:07 < kanzure> a simple simulation can also demonstrate results versus random, especially with a contrived 'optimal' graph that a generative/learning algorithm has to discover or approximate
12:10 < kanzure> one result might be that random matchmaking is better than brownian motion at a conference.. that would be funny to see.
12:18 < hprmbridge> nmz787> A big, main, motivator for me to make DNA synthesis cheap and as easy as computer programming is to support r&d of Cinderella pumpkins that could be a nearly finished house (i don't wanna think about auto carriages right now)
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12:22 < RangerMauve> oooo yeah. How's your progress on that? Anything public I can follow along with?
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13:38 < hprmbridge> nmz787> eh, I was mudding drywall in the lab room two days ago
13:38 < hprmbridge> nmz787> sooo, nothing appreciable in terms of science
14:13 < kanzure> well if you make the occupants very tiny, then the existing hilariously large pumpkins should be fine
14:13 < kanzure> perhaps mice.
14:14 < hprmbridge> nmz787> already traditional breeding and caretaking produces child-playhouse sized pumpkins
14:14 < kanzure> yep that's what humans do when they are given optimization criteria
14:15 < hprmbridge> nmz787> so I don't see any reason a bunch of genetic hackery and extra fuel/power wouldn't work
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17:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.tobyord.com/writing/half-life
17:10 < L29Ah> damn polymarket only accepts ethereum shit :<
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17:45 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Identification of non-canonical peptides with moPepGen" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41587-025-02701-0
19:28 < RangerMauve> > If human performance scales differently with task length than AI agent performance, that would be an important result, suggesting that there is a notable inefficiency in the current AI paradigm. This warrants further research.
19:29 < RangerMauve> That's a neat thought. Taking time to reevaluate progress and redo past tasks seems like it could be helpful
19:54 < fenn> for humans too
19:56 < fenn> "peptide sequences absent from canonical reference databases (that is, non-canonical peptides)"
19:56 < fenn> why not just say artificial
19:57 < fenn> there is another definition of canonical peptides: "those protein sequences with less than 50 amino acids and composed by the 20 standard amino acids; non-canonical peptides are defined as peptides with chemical modifications either in the back-bone, cyclizations, or modified or wholly synthetical side-chains."
--- Log closed Wed Jun 18 00:00:15 2025