--- Log opened Wed Jun 18 00:00:15 2025
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09:53 < kanzure> is there someone who is taking the michael levin bioelectricity career trajectory but without the friction and baggage of the other woo science? this seems like a furtile niche that someone should be occupying.
10:10 < kanzure> "plant galls" https://www.waynesword.net/pljuly99.htm
10:20 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://www.ihp-microelectronics.com/services/research-and-prototyping-service/mpw-prototyping-service/schedule-price-list
10:30 < kanzure> "Why death and aging? All memories are imperfect." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0079610724000178 
10:31 < kanzure> "These cellular collective actions are crucially dependent on cell-based memories as acquired patterns of response to environmental stressors. Notably, in a cellular self-referential framework, all biological information is ambiguous. This conditional requirement imposes a previously unexplored derivative. All cellular memories are imperfect. From this atypical background, a novel theory of ...
10:31 < kanzure> ...aging and death is proposed. Since cellular decision-making is memory-dependent and biology is a continuous natural learning system, the accumulation of previously acquired imperfect memories eventually overwhelms the flexibility cells require to react adroitly to contemporaneous stresses to support continued cellular homeorhetic balance. The result is a gradual breakdown of the critical ...
10:31 < kanzure> ...ability to efficiently measure environmental information and effect cell-cell communication. This age-dependent accretion governs senescence, ultimately ending in death as an organism-wide failure of cellular networking."
10:31 < kanzure> although not promising to see "This approach to aging and death is compatible with all prior theories" (i don't think this should be considered positive?)
10:44 < kanzure> from levin's "agentila memory" article: https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/26/6/481 
10:44 < kanzure> ".. if engrams are not in the synaptic structures [217], where are they? My current hypothesis, driven by the above multi-scale perspective [218], is that there is no single substrate for memory[49]. Every component of the system, including but not limited to those that bubble up to conscious recollections, could be using everything in its environment as an interpretable scratchpad[50]. The ...
10:44 < kanzure> ...deep levels of biological structure and dynamics offer an incredibly high-dimensional physical reservoir [223,224,225,226] (referred to as the senome in [19,227]) that can be exploited for memory remapping[51]. In this view, neuronal networks are not so much used for holding memory as they are for learning to interpret the engrams embodied by subcellular components [34,35]."
10:45 < kanzure> not sure why he felt the need to invoke subcellular memory engram embodiment (isn't it sufficient to say high-dimensional physical system if he belives in a "senome")?)
10:52 < kanzure> well maybe it's because he has some evidence of at least one physical memory engram substrate (and it seems to be a likely molecular object, like RNA) from his references 111 through 122 showing memory transfer to different somatic selflets (other animals) (mostly from the 1960s) by e.g. brain tissue extracts, RNA, or other objects.
10:54 < kanzure> still, biological neuronal networks can still have other roles like learning to interpret or utilize other high-dimensional physical reservoires besides just subcellular molecular memory objects and i'm not sure if possible to rule that out as a modality.
10:58 < kanzure> for the purposes of memory preservation, computational read/write of memory, uploading, or similar purposes, it would be very convenient if there is at least one physical substrate of memory that is accessible to our technologies such as DNA sequencing, RNA sequencing, electron beam scanning of the connectome, DNA memory tape readout, or another practicable technique.
10:59 < kanzure> if there really are multiple competing substrate options for biological cognitive memory storage, then we ought to try artificial selection to nudge towards a single modality; i have previously commented on the idea of artificial selection to nudge towards physical memory consolidation in a specific location in the brain instead of whole-brain memory storage or sparse storage, a related ...
10:59 < kanzure> ...concept.
11:00 < kanzure> nudging towards single memory object type (of our choice) and a single centralized location is useful for goals like storage, preservation, memory read/write, and amenable to lesioning proofs.
11:02 < kanzure> i should add physical extraction to that list. physical extraction is useful because it lets us poke at things in a way that "here is a big brain have fun not being able to orchestrate it to run your studies" does not.
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13:16 < kanzure> "The Genomic Code: the genome instantiates a generative model of the organism" https://www.cell.com/trends/genetics/fulltext/S0168-9525(25)00008-3
14:12 < kanzure> strange little coding interface and repl in the browser (multiple files saved to localstorage) https://codeboot.org/5.3.1/
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