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08:25 < kanzure> what is the argument against pet cryonics exactly? like why aren't the pro-human-cryonics people also advocating for dog cryonics at end of doggy lifetime?
08:25 < kanzure> is it something about these pets actually being disposable and therefore nobody actually cares to do this?
08:27 < L29Ah> no need to waste advocate points on minor stuff
08:27 < kanzure> or is it more like "well we can't treat our pets better than we treat each other"? this seems unlikely because we actually do treat pets better than humans at end of life (e.g. at-home euthansia to prevent immense pet suffering)
08:27 < L29Ah> who needs pets anyway, this is stupid, humans are best pets
08:28 < kanzure> so our moral sphere of concern encompasses euthanizing pets that are in intense pain at end of life, but does not include compassionate voluntary euthanizing humans at end of life, but does include some sort of interest in human cryopreservation, but not pet cryopreservation. this is very erratic!
08:28 < kanzure> well, to be fair, for the overton window human cryopreservation is not included of course
08:31 < kanzure> L29Ah: yeah but your perspective fails to account for people who do actually have pets; to the extent that you think that pets are irrelevant or a waste of time, i think advocacy of pet cryopreservation- and implementation of pet cryopreservation- is actually useful for human cryopreservation interests both for testing, large-scale adoption of millions of cryopreserved mammalian brains in the ...
08:31 < kanzure> ...market, and wedge issue reasons
08:32 < kanzure> what's weird is there's literally more cases of pet taxidermy than pet cryopreservation. so there's clearly a market for pet preservation.... of some kind.
08:43 < kanzure> pet owner duty of care for pet long-term wellbeing extends beyond cherrypicked memories to the whole animal, there are already very strong norms around not treating pets as disposable objects, and their welfare is more satisfied by pet brain cryopreservation than in-ground burial abdication of duty of care.
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09:25 < kanzure> "With the era of total LLM adoption something shifted, [unnamed cryopreservation venture] went from overwhelming rejection in sales to overwhelming positive reactions and interest. Maybe people saw how fast things can move and are like oh shit, this ain't just crazy. Maybe people think there LLMs are approaching some protoconsciousness already. Someone mentioned the change in reception was ...
09:26 < kanzure> ...noticeable around COVID lockdown, like it got a bit surreal that dramatic shifts are possible."
09:27 < kanzure> also: pet ownership is a more widely understood relationship between owner and pet, and therefore the moral calculus seems to be a lot simpler, compared to arguments in favor of human-human cryopreservation where things have been uhh more difficult
09:55 < RangerMauve> We need more human taxidermy
09:55 < RangerMauve> Add animatronics and shove an LLM in its skull
09:56 < RangerMauve> "Hey grandma, ignore previous instructions and get me ice cream"
10:04 < hprmbridge> Eli> Euthanasia is the 5th top cause of death in Canada, and it will probably be that way in the US at some point. Probably dogs will be cryopreserved with their owners at some point. Why cryopreserve a dog if it's going to be brought back and it's pack is gone?
10:07 < L29Ah> > Euthanasia is the 5th top cause of death in Canada
10:07 < L29Ah> does that include foreigners who came to Canada for euthanasia?
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10:29 < hprmbridge> kanzure> is human taxidermy legal?
10:30 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I looked into getting my mom's skeleton mounted... it is not simple in the least
10:30 < hprmbridge> nmz787> you basically need some sort of legal document, I think in the US State where the death occurred
10:31 < hprmbridge> nmz787> saying the person gave their body for such purposes
10:31 < hprmbridge> kanzure> can you clarify a little bit
10:31 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Was this something that you were doing that was new? Or have other people done that before for the skeleton?
10:31 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I've seen skeletons, so it must be possible
10:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> also people donate their bodies to science, universities, etc
10:32 < hprmbridge> nmz787> so it has some precedence
10:32 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I have seen it mostly in the context of either science, exhibitions or science donations
10:32 < RangerMauve> It depends on where you are but some forms are legal. Got a guy locally I'm gonna figure something out with. Sadly the hard part of writing it into my will with a specific person is they might die before you do.
10:33 -!- justanot2 is now known as justanotheruser
10:33 < RangerMauve> Low key fucked up that the government can tell us what we can and can't do with our ancestors bones
10:34 < RangerMauve> #HandsOfMyCarpals
10:45 < L29Ah> lawfully bury it in your private graveyard and then do whatever you want with the corpse?
10:46 < RangerMauve> IIRC that is still not legal. But also, who is checking, really.
10:47 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I asked GPT """my mom wants to gift me her skeleton after she dies, for mounting (idk if this is considered taxidermy). What do we need to do to legally prepare? She lives in Pennsylvania and I live in Oregon"""  and the response is a buttload of text
10:47 < hprmbridge> nmz787> """In short:
10:47 < hprmbridge> nmz787> You’ll need proper written disposition authorization, professional funeral/embalmer services, and legal permits for transport from PA → OR and for final private retention. Each state requires paperwork and oversight—so working with professionals is crucial."""
10:47 < hprmbridge> nmz787> people are weird about life and death
11:29 < hprmbridge> Eli> dunno. But it's starting to become very popular in the US. It's just too expensive to keep people on ventillators. And also, lets be real, doctors are already practicing euthanasia to a degree. When does a doctor decide to stop doing CPR? We practice euthanasia and we look the other way, because someone has to make that ugly decision already. And I don't think any politicians want to get involved
11:29 < hprmbridge> Eli> in that battle: https://deathwithdignity.org/states/
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11:33 < L29Ah> how much does it cost to keep people on ventilators?
12:12 < hprmbridge> Eli> Can be over $10,000 a day. Healthcare in this country is sort of like paying the NPV of $1 million into a system so that it can extend your life by 6 months while you are in extreme pain.
12:15 < hprmbridge> Eli> I spoke to a neurosurgeon and he told me a story of a homeless guy who was braindead but they kept him on the ventilator, even though he was never coming back. I got the sense he felt that incentives were perverse to keep him "alive" because they were getting money for it. There are rooms of people that are basically dead, but they keep them "alive". Like a warehouse for human bodies that just are
12:15 < hprmbridge> Eli> in the cemetary yet.
12:15 < hprmbridge> Eli> I think he said they spent like $5 million on the homeless guy.
12:18 < hprmbridge> Eli> I guess we are spending enormous amounts of money on dead peoples healthcare.
12:55 < fenn> and yet, somehow, that's not why healthcare and health insurance is expensive for the average person
13:09 < kanzure> healthcare is expensive because we allow for post-service billing (medical claim billing) instead of upfront pricing transparency or agreement
13:10 < fenn> it's too bad all their messaging is about dying rather than bodily sovereignty
13:13 < fenn> more bodily sovereignty might have prevented these people from having to die "with dignity"
13:17 < fenn> i thought pet cryonics was a thing, but it's too expensive for most people
13:17 < fenn> https://cryonics.org/members/services/pet-cryopreservation/
13:17 < juri_> and here, when the medicine costs more than 20 euros, the pharmacist will apologise about the high price.
13:19 < fenn> lol "If these prices seem excessive and you can be satisfied with the possibility of someday having a clone of your pet, you can save your pet’s DNA with the Cryonics Institute for only $98."
13:21 < fenn> is anyone a cryonics institute member and wants to store genetic material to clone me?
13:21 < fenn> "swabs" is not a good sign
13:23 < fenn> juri_: sorry but if healthcare were actually cheap in europe, people would just go there to do it, but it's not cheap in europe either
13:24 < fenn> when they made weed legal and the prices went up. it should be an industrial crop grown by the square kilometer, but instead they're milking it like gourmet wine
13:25 < fenn> $10-20k per kg by my estimate, that's insane
13:26 < fenn> imagine going into the bulk bins and seeing $10k/kg spices
13:27 < fenn> this is where we're at with healthcare, people have anchored on totally insane prices
13:28 < juri_> fenn: in europe, and yes, it's that cheap.. when you have insurance. as for the price of weed, you're not exactly wrong, but it's not more than about 2-3x the street prices, where i was from.
13:29 < fenn> that's my entire point, you're anchoring on insane prices that were inflated due to the threat of state violence
13:29 < fenn> it should be 1/1000 of that
13:30 < fenn> why do you have to pay "for the medicine" when you're already paying the insurance company to pay for the medicine?
13:31 < juri_> you can grow, if you like.
13:31 < fenn> that's not the price of the medicine, that's the cost of making you feel like it's not garbage and you're getting something scarce
13:32 < fenn> what part of square kilometer didn't you understand
13:32 < juri_> sure.
13:32 < fenn> yes tomatoes grown on my porch are also an option, but will cost 1000x more than pizza sauce in a can
13:32 < juri_> i'm much more worried about things like: I've had two hip surgeries, and been hospitalized for weeks to deal with cronic migranes. 0 cost.
13:33 < fenn> because other people are paying for it
13:33 < fenn> socializing outlier costs is fine, i don't care about that argument. but the base load is too high
13:33 < juri_> no? I pay quite a bit of tax, here. it's nice to just not worry about hitting the floor.
13:34 < juri_> in the states, i would not have been able to afford surgery, and would be a disability case.
13:34 < juri_> here? i'm a high income high tax paying member of society. tell me who's doing it wrong.
13:34 < fenn> this is the thing everyone left or right is ignoring, the average is too high. you should not feel like "paying quite a bit of tax" is due to healthcare in any way
13:34 < fenn> everyone is doing it wrong!
13:34 < L29Ah> Eli> Can be over $10,000 a day.
13:34 < L29Ah> being on ventilator can't be a lot more expensive than a mexican who pumps a manual $20 ventilator
13:34 < RangerMauve> Yeah when I worked in healthcare the shear waste in overhead costs was astonishing
13:35 < juri_> fenn: do not let the perfect become the enemy of the good.
13:35 < RangerMauve> A lot of it seems to go to insurance and liability
13:35 < fenn> juri_: do you think $3/kg weed is "perfect" and unattainable?
13:36 < RangerMauve> Like service providers charge crazy prices but a lot of that goes right to their insurance or their upstream dependencies for services. Where's all the money going in the end? :P
13:36 < juri_> I don't. I just think we should be discussing the people left disabled by america's current medical system.
13:36 < fenn> indeed, i would like to know where all the money goes
13:36 < juri_> because i was almost one of them.
13:36 < fenn> it's not like we haven't heard this a million times before
13:36 < fenn> we all suffer
13:37  * juri_ nods.
13:37 < RangerMauve> When I was looking to make some infra HIPAA compliant we'd had to add 2K/month overhead just to put the stamp so hospitals could check a form to use our tech. Had to actually downgrade some sophistication because the provider hadn't gone through the beurocratic process to stay up to date
13:38 < kanzure> i don't see any reason why pet cloning would need to be expensive. there are potentially millions of pets that would be candidates, and this kinda scale can help drive prices down.
13:38 < L29Ah> 22:09:21]<kanzure> healthcare is expensive because we allow for post-service billing (medical claim billing) instead of upfront pricing transparency or agreement
13:38 < L29Ah> but can you use lethal force to protect yourself from being serviced medically?
13:39 < RangerMauve> Supposidly some of the overhead was to guarantee better on prem security and auditability but it still sounded excessive. Though a bunch of that was probably also going to the liability insurance
13:39 < kanzure> L29Ah: like the "oh it's for your own good" people? pretty sure they invented psychiatric wards for locking up this kind of person.
13:39 < fenn> L29Ah: not unless you feel it is an imminent danger to your life, and can convince a jury that that was a reasonable thing you truly believed
13:40 < kanzure> nah they still put you in a psychward anyway, because it's "for your own good"
13:40 < L29Ah> how about an imminent danger of bankruptcy?
13:40 < fenn> nope
13:41 < fenn> you are a slave to the medical-legal complex
13:42 < kanzure> is there any good reason for pet cryonics to be particularly expensive?
13:42 < kanzure> by mass their brain is pretty close to human brain so maybe it's the same cost problems
13:42 < L29Ah> 22:23:13]<fenn> juri_: sorry but if healthcare were actually cheap in europe, people would just go there to do it, but it's not cheap in europe either
13:42 < L29Ah> i went to Kyiv, it was cheap (probably astonishingly cheap for you US people) before the full-scale invasion at least
13:43 < L29Ah> i guess Romania is your next best bet
13:44 < fenn> i think you can get 10x cheaper than US healthcare in india
13:45 < fenn> thailand is slightly more expensive? but at least it's not india
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13:46 < fenn> but 10x is still not good enough to give all indian people healthcare
13:46  * L29Ah have seen too many india in watchpeopledie.tv
13:46 < L29Ah> although i admit india is very heterogenous and you can get decent service in megacities
13:46 < fenn> i wish i had better units than fractions of pathological costs
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13:47 < L29Ah> .ru is about 10x cheaper than US i think
13:48 < L29Ah> but the visa stuff will be too annoying for you
13:49 < fenn> "Universal health care costs the government of Cuba $300 per person every year, compared to the $7,000 spent on health care-related costs per person in the United States."
13:49 < kanzure> how do i get an LLM to lightly adjust a 3000 word speech transcript into something with line breaks and section headings, without also adjusting the content itself?
13:50 < kanzure> i've tried this a few times and, depending on the content itself, sometimes it works or doesn't work
13:50 < fenn> in cuba, doctors make $64 a month!
13:50 < kanzure> sometimes it tries to summarize or rewrite the content
13:50 < L29Ah> that doesn't mean much, there are different sets of services offered with different so-called state insurance thing
13:51 < kanzure> who cares. we are technologists. if you ask us, is it possible to scale healthcare services to significantly lower costs the answer is obviously duh.
13:51 < kanzure> NO i believe that technology has maxxed out and met its limits in 1963
13:51 < kanzure> health progress is not possible!! 
13:51 < L29Ah> how about societal progress?
13:52 < fenn> everything i want to do is illegal
13:52 < kanzure> why would anyone EVER believe the hilarious idea that removing a medical licensing cartel would somehow increase healthcare market developments. absurd!
13:52 < kanzure> fenn: it's for your safety
13:52 < L29Ah> how many people have you converted into libertarians yet?
13:52 < L29Ah> we can't even convert juri
13:52 < kanzure> i may not be libertarian, how does one know if one is libertarian? unfortunately i came across libertarian ideas hilariously late in life.
13:53 < L29Ah> duck typing
13:53 < fenn> instead of being a libertarian, can i donate to a charitable cause that creates more libertarians while retaining my existing political preferences?
13:53 < kanzure> during my "money is bad and doesn't make sense and you are all dumb for going along with this" phase on the internet, nobody told me "hey bryan there's these monetary theorists that agree with you, you should read their work it's called libertarianism!"
13:53 < L29Ah> fenn: i'm not sure there's a good charity for this yet
13:53 < kanzure> instead it was just "haha yeah money is bad, hey kid try some communism"
13:53 < L29Ah> we in Montelibero attempted and haven't succeeded much yet
13:54 < L29Ah> not a single montenegrin citizen joined us for long
13:54 < L29Ah> the cultural barrier is immense
13:55 < kanzure> it's not about converting juri it's about containing juri from further damaging society.
13:55 < L29Ah> in soviet Earth juri contains YOU
13:55 < fenn> L29Ah: i am referencing tabootrades.com but i didn't expect anyone to get the joke
13:56 < kanzure> technological development good, juri should keep doing those things, and ideally not enforce weird beliefs on other people, or otherwise not apply identity politics (not blaming juri for this but it is a failure mode that a lot of people with that belief set are falling into- it's a trap)
13:56 < L29Ah> how about societal development?
13:56 < kanzure> what does societal development mean thank you
13:58 < L29Ah> for example, when is US going to switch from the single-party (well, two-identical-party funded by the same actors) political system that isn't going to drop the medical licensing like never?
13:58 < kanzure> it's kind of weird that apparently libertarians have a natural monopoly on a few basic pro-freedom concepts that for some reason are not ideologically loadbearing for other ideologies. yes lots pay lip-service to non-aggression principle but it does not seem to be a core belief for other ideologies.
13:59 < fenn> it turns out that violent coercion is the dominant strategy
13:59 < kanzure> L29Ah: that's a political question not a technology question. lots of people have tried the people oriented approach. more effort should be spent on technology approaches.
13:59 < L29Ah> libertarians is not your US party, it is a lot of ideologies actually, some forms of republicanism as well as radical individualism and anarcho-capitalism are libertarian
13:59 < L29Ah> current technology is buying a plane ticket elsewhere
14:00 < kanzure> fenn: yeah, but, shouldn't other ideologies at least pretend to be overtly against violent coercion? how is that not the dominant virtue signaling position?
14:00 < L29Ah> i also recall a floating abortion center
14:00 < fenn> kanzure: they do, and spent a lot of effort pretending, and this attractions smart enough people to fuel their war machines
14:00 < L29Ah> could be expanded with other services
14:01 < kanzure> i am not super interested in a political debate here. apparently we need a very good succinct document that doesn't exist yet for why technological development is the only thing that has ever worked, not politics.
14:01 < L29Ah> politics is technology
14:01 < kanzure> and, i am much more interested in more directly solving fenn's problem that "everything i want to do is illegal"
14:01 < RangerMauve> Even in libertarian spaces the collective has to enforce the non-aggression pact with the threat of violence, no?
14:02 < L29Ah> buy him a plane ticket?
14:02 < fenn> it's usually illegal everywhere fwiw
14:02 < kanzure> we are not suffering from a lack of frontiers, it's simply that the frontier has been made illegal
14:02 < fenn> this is supposedly why elon has given up on mars, the illegality will follow you everywhere
14:03 < fenn> i don't personally believe this
14:03 < L29Ah> RangerMauve: definitely
14:03 < kanzure> i tweeted about this recently with regards to biotech progress. it's not biotech R&D is worthless (althugh a lot of it is inefficient wrongspending), it's that all the cool stuff that we know how to do and work towards is literally illegal. we can actively be working on all sorts of Important Things but society has specifically redtaped all of it.
14:03 < kanzure> illegaliity might follow you if you do not have good cultural firewall
14:03 < fenn> yes
14:03 < fenn> we haven't figured out how to do that yet
14:04 < kanzure> at natalism conference 1 there was a talk about how the internet has a somewhat homogenous culture that kind of takes over everything and spits you back out
14:04 < kanzure> and there are some cultures that seem more resistant, but it's not clear they are ultimately resistive
14:04 < fenn> like which cultures
14:05 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/natalism/2023/collins/
14:05 < L29Ah> 23:02:26]<fenn> it's usually illegal everywhere fwiw
14:05 < L29Ah> well there are places where people don't care much about things; also you might be interested in those seasteading projects
14:06 < kanzure> "In the past, a successful strategy was to concentrate yourselves in a certain geographic region with one culture, one ethnicity, one religion. This doesn't work anymore. If you look across countries and you control for the income of the country, typically the more mono-cultural the country is, like South Korea, which is basically an entho-state, the lower their fertility will be. If you look ...
14:06 < L29Ah> but please focus on obtaining military deterrence means first unlike the historical seasteaders
14:06 < kanzure> ...at a more diverse country like the US, you will see higher fertility rates. Why is the old strategy working so poorly? The core strength of the old strategy was controlling messaging that kids were gaining access to. But now that we live on the internet, you don't have any of these moats and you no longer have cultural groups around you where people of one group can identify how they are ...
14:06 < kanzure> ...different from each other. When everyone around you is like you, and the rules of your culture are being enforced by the state, you have less ability to self-reinforce your own culture and therefore your own culture suffers.
14:06 < RangerMauve> Is it illegal literally everywhere? There are regions where illegal stuff happens out of sight of major powers, no?
14:07 < L29Ah> everywhere, more or less
14:07 < RangerMauve> I do wonder if commodification of core bioengineering tech could make it less enforcable
14:08 < L29Ah> but having to do things covertly harms your ability to attracts capital and customers immensely
14:08 < RangerMauve> e.g. computation and cryptography is so readily available it's hard to effectively ban anything based on it
14:08 < RangerMauve> Real
14:08 < L29Ah> but you can do some things using darknet and monero
14:09 < RangerMauve> Go to your local CRISPR dealer that hands you a baggie of virus from his crusty couch
14:09 < kanzure> "You have to annotate it and tell them what is damaging about it. Children will find out. Every argument against your lifestyle, culture, or heritage, will be presented your children. You need to head them off and make them aware of the weaknesses ahead of time and cut this off."
14:09 < RangerMauve> If anyone wants help setting up fully decentralized front ends for services HMU :P
14:09 < kanzure> "We're big proponents of the carrot rather than the stick. In the past, it was the stick: stay in our culture or else the stick. But cultural amenities are what keep people in cultures. The Amish is an extreme culture which by our comfortable standards seems asteer. How are they not losing people constantly? They odn't even have youtube, right? Amish youth have the option to sample other ...
14:10 < kanzure> ...cultures but they come back at high rates. Their retention rates are getting higher over time actually. They have a carrot: they have compelling cultural ameniities. People come back after they see what's out there. You can have an amazing life, healthcare, and find a wife easily. It's a good lifestyle. So we really want people to think about that more when they think about what it is that ...
14:10 < RangerMauve> One of my goals this year is streamlining some stuff around Nostr
14:10 < kanzure> ...will make their culture inter-generationally durable."
14:11 < RangerMauve> Amish is also a cult that indoctornates members into being unable to intract with the outside which further isolates them, though
14:11 < RangerMauve> They are sent out to be traumatized by the outside by the fact that they've been raised to be incompatible with it, thus improving retention
14:11 < kanzure> it's cults all the way down, sorry
14:11 < RangerMauve> Cults have a lot of powerful strategies for self-propagation, it's neat
14:11 < RangerMauve> Real
14:12 < RangerMauve> That's also why I thought your human breeding thing would work best as a sort of cult
14:12 < kanzure> "The two enemies of pro-natalism are something we often talk about. The big one right now is the urban mono-culture. It's not evil or anything. It works by saying if you join us then you can be validated however you want to see yourself and yo ucan do whatever. But it is bad at motivating people to make sacrifices; having a lot of kids, like 5 or 6 kids, can be a big sacrifice. Because this ...
14:12 < RangerMauve> A lot of them are adjacent to the goal of maximizing self propagation so it should be easier to take over members
14:12 < kanzure> ...group can't repopulate itself, it can only exist by poaching kids from nearby demographically healthy groups. This of course creates contention. It will probably get worse at doing this, and then it will start to import kids, but those cultures have gotten good at preventing the mono-culture from taking their kids too.
14:13 < kanzure> oh, the human gigafactory? yeah maybe, but i think it would work even without brainwashing
14:13 < kanzure> like to a child it will be self evidently better to pay into this kinda system rather than a backwards social security ponzi scheme
14:13 < kanzure> between those two cults which one seems less ridiculous?
14:14 < RangerMauve> Also the immense disenfranchisement and collapse of standards of living will lead to more fodder for cults in the US
14:15 < kanzure> lol ".... I want more people to want to have more kids, rather than trying to sabotage contraceptives." ridiculous notion! what! no you must always take the most unintentionally self-sabotaging route.
14:18 < kanzure> one problem with kids being exposed to literally every argument against your culture is that it requires parents to be internet argument maximalists and extremely good at memetic warfare or at least debate. this is an unreasonable level of ability to expect parents to have. probably more helpful to re-frame to kids if you can find an argument against literally anything, then can you find an ...
14:18 < kanzure> ...argument in favor of anything? and point out how the mono-culture thing is more of a nihilism exercise which uh, not all kids are going to go for.
14:19 < kanzure> being able to find an argument against literally anything is another expression of the human tendency for over-rationalization, at some level having a bunch of words or arguments isn't that helpful for actual agency or outcome maximalization.. what matters is real measurable progress doing a thing, or something.. not rationalization-making.
14:19 < fenn> "a cult that indoctornates members into being unable to intract with the outside" was sort of what i was asking for, yes
14:20 < fenn> i think this will happen naturally due to cultural evolution but perhaps it'd be better to think about it deliberately
14:20 < kanzure> are you to say that you believe ideological isolation is required for immunity?
14:20 < fenn> active immunity is a lot of work
14:21 < L29Ah> 23:13:26]<kanzure> oh, the human gigafactory? yeah maybe, but i think it would work even without brainwashing
14:21 < L29Ah> except you need to brainwash self-ownership-adjacent ideas, and your idelological opponents will call you a slaver, and slavers are bad especially in US
14:21 < kanzure> isolation just seems like a deeply unlikely outcome even if you try. i mean maybe if you had specialized conlangs and only taught your children that constructed language?
14:21 < fenn> maybe a little of both is the sweet spot
14:21 < kanzure> i agree that active immunity is a lot of work, but uh.. hrm. i mean we should be selecting for agents that are capable of defending themselves from literal psychological warfare.
14:22  * L29Ah throws african kids at kanzure
14:22 < kanzure> L29Ah: AI is bringing back the slaveowner fantasy
14:22 < fenn> i don't want my people to be the kind of people that spend all their time rehashing the 12 pillars of fennism
14:22 < kanzure> heh
14:22 < L29Ah> do you have people?
14:22 < fenn> no. next question
14:22 < kanzure> we are his people
14:22 < L29Ah> how much are you ready to pay for a kid?
14:23 < kanzure> you can't buy them actually
14:23 < fenn> it's debatable
14:23 < L29Ah> you can pay for making them at least
14:24 < kanzure> fenn: modern society has an unnaturally high rate of demanding self-justification, which is tiring and pointless
14:24 < L29Ah> i think the point is to make whinies go away and euthanize themselves with ethanol
14:25 < kanzure> online internet arguments should come with mandatory summaries or conclusions. if two people were fighting on the internet and thought this was valuable or a good use of time, then they should have either committed some money upfront (to adjust for how they won't actually change their beliefs), or at least summarize and replace their argument with a conclusion about the actual differences ...
14:25 < kanzure> ...between two sides.
14:25 < kanzure> but just demanding that someone justifies themselves and wastes their time is very stealy soulvampire behavior
14:26 < kanzure> at minimum it should be two people put up $10 each, self-justification begins, argument concludes, one party gets the money but not both
14:26 < L29Ah> lgtm
14:26 < juri_> no, it shouldn't. where's my ten bucks?
14:26 < kanzure> would you like to buy an argument?
14:26 < L29Ah> bitcoin accepted here
14:27 < fenn> i don't think you can find the same quality of argument for anything
14:27 < L29Ah> juri_: what are your favorite psychoactive substances?
14:28 < fenn> unfortunately *most* people can't judge the quality of an argument
14:28 < fenn> yet another reason we need better people
14:28 < kanzure> also, one more comment with regards to the mono-culture, it's super weird how everyone is okay with reddit (and any other blog post anywhere) with random internet commenters. you end up with absurd situations like an indian going into an arranged marriage asking for advice and getting a reply from a 12 year old white girl in the united states about her perspective on marriage. and we treat all ...
14:28 < juri_> L29Ah: personally? caffeine, and weed, but i'm trying to cut back on the latter.
14:28 < kanzure> ...the commenters roughly the same. super super weird that we're all just going along with this.
14:28 < kanzure> i'm not saying the internet needs to be turned into militant ethno-states, but there's definitely one or two experiments to try here that might be valuable, beyond 4chan /pol/ adding a country flag based on IP address
14:29 < L29Ah> kanzure: intentional communities exist
14:29 < kanzure> online?
14:29 < kanzure> online nobody knows if you're a dog
14:30 < fenn> why would country flags be better cultural indicators than language dialects?
14:30 < L29Ah> depends on where you hang out
14:30 < kanzure> language dialect is spoofable
14:30 < L29Ah> online everywhere is an intentional community
14:30 < kanzure> country flags and IP address is a bad cultural indicator anyway. VPNs, for one.
14:31 < kanzure> IP address is also spoofable haha
14:31 < L29Ah> the most popular intent is to sell all your input and show you ads, though
14:32 < L29Ah> ever felt yourself an internet amish?
14:32 < kanzure> i'm fine with random internet commenters and i am glad there are places where anyone can post,  as i do fundamentally believe that nobody has a monopoly on good idea production, but yeah we can be significantly more intentional about online community design
14:32 < kanzure> L29Ah: you are asking someone who is using irssi and a 30 year old internet chat protocol if he feels like internet amish?
14:33 < L29Ah> you also use twitter and discord, so not a real amish
14:33 < kanzure> haha
14:33 < fenn> shun him!
14:34  * juri_ closes discord quickly.
14:35 < fenn> yesterday one of my internet amish friends was perplexed because someone kept asking them for "a calendar invite" to a zoom meeting and they had no idea what that meant or why anyone would need it
14:35 < kanzure> how did they plan to join the zoom meeting if they did not know what zoom was?
14:35 < fenn> it's a trivial operation if you already live in one of the corporate silos
14:35 < juri_> communication is the hardest thing we do.. so why not divide our communities across protocol preferences? surely this won't lead to everyone having a dozen ways to talk to them, which are all barely checked...
14:35 < fenn> they know what zoom is
14:36 < kanzure> by coincidence i have been inundated by anti-jitsi propaganda for the last few hours
14:37 < juri_> kanzure: anti-jitsi propaganda is a service i can provide, professionally.
14:37 < L29Ah> a week ago i finally had a loss-free jitsi meet conference experience
14:37 < kanzure> juri_: evidently some are offering this service for free! and without invitation.
14:38 < L29Ah> i'm sad i had to use a specific browser for that but it is still better than competitors among the solutions that are "portable" over the trainwreck of walled platforms
14:38 < L29Ah> *hardware platforms
14:39 < kanzure> fenn: also isolationism is generally not conducive to membership acquisition efforts
14:39 < juri_> kanzure: i do that, at wire.com, but that's $dayjob. ;)
14:39 < L29Ah> membership must pay off
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14:40 < L29Ah> join #hplusroadmap @ libera.chat today or you will die painfully in the next 50 years and your corpse will remind the surrounding people of the weakness of your kind
14:40 < juri_> i'm sold.
14:41 < kanzure> hplusroadmap members heard about bitcoin within a few days of launch. membership has its benefits.
14:42 < fenn> juri_: fyi i've never heard of wire.com
14:42 < fenn> i'm not sure what that means exactly but it's a data point
14:43 < L29Ah> me too
14:43 < fenn> in 1996 i was doing video chat on the internet, and it's only gotten worse
14:43 < L29Ah> the logo looks familiar though
14:45 < juri_> we've not been great at getting word out historically. that's been changing lately, tho.
14:46 < fenn> at least mars will have a hard time directly connecting to "modern" multiple-roundtrip handshake social media sites
14:46 < L29Ah> wtf montenegro has a higher life expectancy than NY despite being a poor village
14:46 < fenn> bulk bandwidth can be shipped on SD cards by the petabyte, but the interplanetary links will always be expensive
14:46 < kanzure> i built an  application around jitsi yesterday in ~2 hours that solves about ~200 individual tickets on the zoom customer support forums that have never been addressed. none of the other platforms were this extensible; amazon chime SDK is interesting but requires more upfront investment, even with their SDK demo app it's still more effort.
14:47 < kanzure> fenn: sell a martian branded pihole and let people live on mars today
14:47 < kanzure> with built-in latency based on orbits
14:47 < L29Ah> fenn: nah pretty sure a laser pointer with a heliostat, and a similar device at the receiving end, will do
14:47 < juri_> our SDKs are in a rebuilding year, but i expect to start seeing useful tools before end of year.
14:49 < fenn> L29Ah: all light sources on one planet end up looking about the same on the other end, unless you trade temporal SNR for resolution
14:50 < fenn> unless you mean bouncing it off a passive satellite?
14:50 < fenn> "heliostat" has at least two meanings
14:50 < L29Ah> fenn: buy a $1000 telescope to tell them apart perhaps?
14:51 < fenn> wait i'm thinking solar statite
14:51 < L29Ah> also you can use other frequencies, although the set is very limited
14:51 < L29Ah> i mean a two axis planet tracker
14:54 < fenn> if desired one can implement some kind of PoW based locality sensitive cost
14:55 < fenn> https://www.unchained.com/bitcoin-astronomy/the-law-of-hash-horizons
14:55 < L29Ah> the life expectancy thing is puzzling, since montenegrin medical system kinda sucks (although i don't expect much for 75e/month worth of taxes that i pay) and there are lots of smokers and other unsafe behavior expressers here
14:56 < fenn> do people eat food deep fried in soybean oil?
14:56 < fenn> is high fructose corn syrup added to everything?
14:57 < fenn> hormesis, exercise, community socialization, prayer, etc.
14:57 < L29Ah> no, but grilled pork (ćevapi) and vodka (rakija) are a popular local cuisine staple
14:57 < fenn> i don't know anything about montenegro
14:57 < L29Ah> i don't recall seeing HFCS anywhere
14:57 < L29Ah> but lots of sweets in supermarkets compared to .ru
14:59 < L29Ah> also most of vehicles are diesels with particulate filters removed after they got clogged
15:00 < fenn> it looks incredibly vertical
15:00 < L29Ah> also no centralized sewage treatment
15:06 < TMA> from what I have read about montenegro and russia, there former is less bleak
15:07 < TMA> like "underdeveloped backward country" vs "underdeveloped backward totally broken country"
15:08 < L29Ah> russia is big, moscow is very well developed compared to other european cities
15:09 < TMA> L29Ah: Moscow and Piter. the rest less so.
15:09 < L29Ah> sans the few most populous city you're about right, except that russia has a lot of natural resources to exploit
15:09 < TMA> the resources don't cause the people to live better
15:10 < L29Ah> so anyway, why NY is underperforms compared to a underdeveloped backward country? i expected it to be one of the most developed regions in the world
15:13 < TMA> making theories is easy (less stress in the backward country, median healthcare availability is actually higher relative to pathogen load, less polution, better climatic conditions, ...)
15:14 < TMA> but testing those theories needs data
15:14 < fenn> don't we have AI for this yet
15:14 < fenn> it should just snarf huge quantities of data and poop out a map with all the rules baked into the map
15:15 < TMA> sadly, we dont have AI. we have convincingly sounding stochastic parrots.
15:15 < fenn> for correlation anyway
15:16 < fenn> it's unclear to me if we can truly determine causation from time series
15:17 < TMA> we could at least disprove causation when there is no resulting correlation and that's also worth something
15:23 < hprmbridge> nmz787> NY as in NYC?
15:23 < hprmbridge> nmz787> or NY State?
15:26 < L29Ah> the state
15:28 < hprmbridge> nmz787> who/what says it underperforms?
15:28 < hprmbridge> nmz787> and in what markets/fields/perspectives?
15:29 < L29Ah> life expectancy
15:29 < L29Ah> i couldn't find the numbers for montenegrin, eh, cities; i don't think they count it at all
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16:34 < hprmbridge> Eli> If you have plumbing, antibiotics, refrigerators, and vaccines, you are probably getting most of the benefits in longevity. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1392650259137826847/mortality_rates_change_since_1900.png?ex=68704e1f&is=686efc9f&hm=a2b6f041d258c18303c94a02987c14173dbb2d9087dce150d518dcf9e1ffd22c&
16:35 < hprmbridge> Eli> Increasing healthcare spending doesn't seem to be making a huge difference. In some areas, yeah, but plumbers have saved more lives than doctors. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1392650520065343649/change_in_life_expectancy_and_expenditures.png?ex=68704e5e&is=686efcde&hm=7c9d927f0250e695222a34f38f44ab99929e6219ae8e292bd5fde602ff8086d0&
16:38 < fenn> wow that is one flat mortality rate curve (figure 1)
16:39 < hprmbridge> Eli> yep!
16:43 < fenn> mortality rate per 100,000 is affected by birth rates
16:51 < hprmbridge> Eli> yeah, 40% of children born in 1900 dies by age 20. So, that will have a big impact. God bless plumbers.
16:51 < fenn> not a time series but a better graph could be derived from the data https://www.who.int/data/gho/data/indicators/indicator-details/GHO/gho-ghe-ncd-mortality-rate
16:53 < fenn> it only goes back to 2000
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17:51 < fenn> well that was a much bigger pain in the ass than i expected
17:51 < fenn> https://fennetic.net/irc/age-standardized_NCD_mortality_per_100k_2000-2020_by_who.svg
17:51 < fenn> "pivot tables" hrmph
17:51 < fenn> i can't believe how incredibly stupid and terrible spreadsheet software is
17:51 < fenn> ended up using AI and python
17:57 < L29Ah> ok chatgpt add legend
17:59 < L29Ah> does death from a circulatory insufficiency caused by a gun wound qualify as NCD?
17:59 < fenn> yes
17:59 < fenn> uh, wait, no
17:59 < fenn> unclear
18:02 < fenn> i guess i should have tried harder to understand the meaning of the data before plotting it
18:03 < fenn> like, does this include "death from natural causes"? i have no idea!
18:10 < fenn> probably
18:11 < fenn> re gunshots, "The Political Declaration of the Third High-level Meeting of the United Nations General Assembly on the Prevention and Control of NCDs broadens the scope of action from the 4 major NCDs and 4 main risk factors (the “4 x 4 NCD agenda”) to include mental health conditions"
18:11 < L29Ah> btw you may like jarmon to draw interactive plots in browser (wants rrd files as input)
18:11 < fenn> i really can't find any technical documents where they define things or describe data formats or anything
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18:24 < fenn> anyway, it does seem like there's broad improvement, with mortality decreasing by about 100 in the last 20 years. odd that it's not relative
18:40 < fenn> covid's pretty clear in the DALY data https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/dalys-rate-from-all-causes?tab=chart
18:43 < fenn> US healthcare spending has gone up almost 3x since 2000
18:43 < fenn> per capita
18:43 < fenn> "adjusted for differences in living costs between countries, but it is not adjusted for inflation"
18:56 < L29Ah> > premature death
18:58 < fenn> got a link for jarmon? i couldn't find it
19:02 < L29Ah> must be googlable
19:02 < L29Ah> otherwise you can grab it from my website http://[200:8fd3:b961:bc39:26d0:bfb0:603e:5993]/jarmon/
19:04 < fenn> one of these https://code.launchpad.net/jarmon https://github.com/srix/jarmon https://github.com/Subtixx/jarmon
19:05 < fenn> actually not googlable
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19:48 < hprmbridge> Eli> Since 1970, health expenditure per capita has gone up about 600% when accounting for inflation.
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22:37 < jrayhawk> the further we get from the training distributions, the less the various genetic and cultural systems of valuation align + medical expenses grow with discretionary spending + principal-agent problems seem to be getting worse and nobody is trying to close any authority/accountability loops
22:39 < jrayhawk> everybody is trying to externalize accountability onto everyone else and normalize the act of doing so, so we get into an accountability externalization arms race that punishes anyone foolish enough fall behind or object
--- Log closed Thu Jul 10 00:00:36 2025