--- Log opened Fri Jul 11 00:00:37 2025
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02:58 < fenn> what does one do with a bioprinter
04:30 < fenn> when human genetic engineering finally goes mainstream, we're going to have to make a lot of decisions about what's "good" and what's "bad" and this will necessarily involve approximations and simulations to predict the effect of a gene or set of genes, and sometimes this will be wrong
04:31 < fenn> so perhaps it will be necessary to set aside an experimental group to try out genes which are believed to be "bad" and let people live out their lives and see what happens
04:32 < fenn> and perhaps this is what Earth is, and the galactic federation are just as appalled as we all are down here, but they don't want to ruin the experiment
04:57 < L29Ah> 11:58:11]<fenn> what does one do with a bioprinter
04:57 < L29Ah> livers
04:57 < L29Ah> probably not much else
05:02 < fenn> i don't understand what's taking so long with artificial organs
05:04 < L29Ah> having all the necessary signalling molecules and scaffolding around at right times to grow proper organs outside of a complete body?
05:04 < fenn> decellularized was first mentioned here in 2012, that's a lot of time to work out the bugs
05:05 < L29Ah> i'm not sure we even have all the differentiating cells' epigenetic data for the organs yet
05:06 < fenn> aren't we supposed to be some sort of roadmap creating organization
05:07 < fenn> gantt charts and shit
05:07 < fenn> what do i even pay you people for
05:19 < L29Ah> you made me recall some other h+ roadmap creating organization that did in fact create roadmaps // http://www.2045.com/images/milestones_en.png
05:20 < L29Ah> http://www.2045.com/images/roadmap_small_en.jpg hahaha roadmaps go brrr
05:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> someone sent me an overview in their work on ex vivo tissue vascularization, not clear to me what's new since jordan miller's vasculature bio printer work
06:49 < TMA> fenn: hey! I delivered everything you paid me for and I did it on schedule!
06:53 < TMA> L29Ah: nice roadmap. so BCI controlled robotic body is available for 5 years already? where can I buy it?
06:55 < kanzure> huh, i don't think i'm aware of the state of artificial organs, in fact i'm still not sure why the artificial heart is able to stay connected long-term to the circulatory system
06:55 < L29Ah> don't ask me
06:56 < kanzure> organ xenotransplantation seems more plausible, although if you're willing to work with animals then might as well test artificial organs
06:56 < kanzure> probably some amount of acceleration can be achieved by directly testing in animals instead of assaying a bazillion times ahead of animal trials
06:57 < L29Ah> i googled for this thing founder, and seems like he went out of favor of .ru powers or smth, haven't seen anything about him for years
06:57 < kanzure> need a name for this, maybe surgericalist science
06:58 < kanzure> surgical cell-cell fusion is surprisingly underdeveloped and while it has the potential to avoid the genetic reductionism of synthetic biology, it has not yet produced direct control of biological morphology or anatomy, possibly due to lack of anyone bothering since the 1920s
06:59 < kanzure> (of interest to reproducible "bioprinting", e.g. biological neural network quines  that learn their own weights and then can direct cell-cell fusion machines to replicate its patterns in refreshed materials)
06:59 < L29Ah> in a certain russian social fiction work, they cloned a homo erectus to use it as an animal to test medical interventions on, since it is legally not a human
06:59 < kanzure> ((if biological brains really do have 10x orders of magnitudes over silicon machines then an entire emulation layer for learning its own weights should still outperform silicon for at least another few months))
07:00 < kanzure> singularitypeople should have a log-scale year numbering system so that our dates or timelines don't sound insane in the future
11:06 < hprmbridge> nmz787> is there a EEG or whatever sensor tech, with ML/AI interpretation... brain controlled keyboard?
11:06 < hprmbridge> nmz787> that I can buy and just use?
11:06 < hprmbridge> nmz787> or are we still 25 years from that being a COTS product?
11:07 < hprmbridge> nmz787> the stupid tongue mouse is still "we'll let you know"
11:29 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Gpt says no 😦
11:29 < hprmbridge> nmz787> 5-10 wpm with current bci keyboards which are also basically research project level development status
11:46 < kanzure> basically nothing.
11:48 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I want to walk around with hi-res AR glasses and a mind-controlled keyboard and I guess mouse/cursor... all the time
11:48 < hprmbridge> nmz787> even now, I'm so tired of typing...
11:48 < hprmbridge> nmz787> barely even chatting
11:49 < kanzure> voice might be the best you can get for now
11:50 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I barely speak now tho... next I'll be having a gravely voice from overspeaking
11:56 < L29Ah> i love typing, it is the best BCI human invented so far
11:57 < L29Ah> i doubt EEG-based BCI can reach plain old qwerty in the next 20 years
11:57 < L29Ah> the only problem with typing i have is that there is a shortage of good wearable keyboard+pointer devices
12:01  * L29Ah didn't approach his wearable keyboard project since he had to flee .ru and .me seems ill-suited for low volume electronics manufacturing due to fucked up annoying customs T_T
12:02 < L29Ah> maybe i should open an electronic components shop to be able to write off components for manufacturing...
12:02 < hprmbridge> nmz787> i also don't want to learn a chording keyboard
12:03 < L29Ah> use split qwerty hanging from the sides of your body
12:03 < hprmbridge> nmz787> maybe you can just call me lazy... but I've always wanted a digital interface since I had some fever dream as a young child, where I saw the most interesting machinery and I knew I couldn't replicate it by drawing with my own hands
12:04 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I have a kinesis freestyle pro in split config
12:04 < hprmbridge> nmz787> link for a product like that hanging off?
12:04 < L29Ah> no links, i've never seen it yet
12:05 < L29Ah> it is my untested idea
12:05 < hprmbridge> nmz787> get your head out of the multiverse, damnit!
12:05 < hprmbridge> nmz787> bah
12:05 < hprmbridge> nmz787> we're all living it, in some way
12:06 < L29Ah> if your kinesis freestyle pro has a long enough joining cable, you can use stick-on velcro and sew the velcro receptacles to a belt
12:06 < L29Ah> tell us how it works out
12:07 < hprmbridge> nmz787> in between might fit one thigh
12:07 < hprmbridge> nmz787> not my waist
12:08 < L29Ah> replace it with a longer cable
12:08 < L29Ah> that broken usb c cable from your trash bin will do
12:09 < L29Ah> also, have any of you checked out the finger-mounted optical mouse?
12:09 < hprmbridge> nmz787> this says up to 110WPM but needs hard surface https://www.amazon.com/Tap-Strap-Wearable-Keyboard-Controller/dp/B09C2K7L73/   but recommends this for "any surface"... still reading https://www.amazon.com/TAPWITHUS-TapXR-Wrist-Keyboard-Controller/dp/B0CHJZVGZS/
12:10  * L29Ah has ~500cpm on qwerty
12:11 < hprmbridge> nmz787> one review on the TapXR """The original TapStraps relied on vibration for this, so needed a fairly positive contact the a typing surface - with much practice you could Tap on something softer, like an arm or Search term:leg, but never felt reliable to me to use to any great extent. The TapXR does work so very much better on soft surfaces, so long as you are mindful not to obscure the optical
12:11 < hprmbridge> nmz787> sensor from you figure tips. Do learn on a solid surface to start with though."""
12:12 < hprmbridge> nmz787> only review with "leg" in it
12:15 < hprmbridge> nmz787> bah, then a bunch of 1 star reviews
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14:49 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://blog.latch.bio/p/a-primer-on-ngs-technologies-and
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17:03 < L29Ah> https://geohot.github.io//blog/jekyll/update/2023/05/24/the-tiny-corp-raised-5M.html
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17:22 < hprmbridge> kanzure> besides 'kind' what is the other active human cloning startup
17:22 < hprmbridge> kanzure> or wait, maybe it's schloendorn's
17:34 < fenn> not log-scale year predictions but standard deviations
17:34 < fenn> tho i think it's bad to predict things in terms of years rather than as a tree of capability dependencies
17:35 < hprmbridge> kanzure> surgical whole body replacement therapy is apparently the driving motivator for the human cloning startups.
17:36 < hprmbridge> kanzure> obviously technology timelines should be noted in units of metric mass of bioethicists that need to be unalived for the unlock?
17:36 < fenn> L29Ah: you could just run an electronics components shop since it's a pain point...
17:36 < fenn> i mean surely you're not the only one with this problem
17:37 < fenn> kanzure: again that's about the precision of your unaliving capability... there's only a few cells that need to be unalived
17:38 < fenn> they don't pay me the big bucks because i don't know where to hit it with the tiny hammer
17:41 < fenn> kinesis you were so close... https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/FS2B-pc-ls2.jpg
17:42 < fenn> anyway, nowadays there is a whole cottage industry catering to custom keyboard designs
17:43 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fenn how would you make a very good throat microphone for nearly subvocal vocalization pickup
17:44 < L29Ah> 02:36:50]<fenn> i mean surely you're not the only one with this problem
17:44 < L29Ah> yes but the market is tiny
17:44 < L29Ah> i live in a village, remember?
17:44 < fenn> i mean you'd mail stuff internally
17:44 < L29Ah> 600k ppl total in .me
17:45 < fenn> i don't know what i'm talking about here so feel free to ignore my dumb suggestion
17:45 < L29Ah> and i doubt there are many electronics enthusiasts among them, as those would have emigrated by the time (.me citizens has visa-free entry to schengen and other nice places)
17:45 < fenn> at the local hackerspace they have a vending machine with various commodity chips at ~2x china prices
17:46 < fenn> or did anyway
17:48 < L29Ah> so you have hackerspaces that somehow earn their rent and exist long enough to have vending machines, so probably get their money from patrons and not some generous donor? pretty sure you live in a >1M city
17:49 < fenn> yes
18:02 < fenn> kanzure i don't know much about microphones but it seems like throat mics are not very good. on the timeline i am from, the startup "Myo" were initially using subthreshold muscle activation detection to control computer interfaces, and their first product was a "voice" controlled wheelchair neckband that picked up subthreshold nerve signals from the throat
18:03 < fenn> it's a moderately difficult electronics problem due to the low signal amplitude
18:03 < hprmbridge> kanzure> some kinda VC fund accelerator scheme (not accelerating startups, but VC funds themselves) https://govclab.com/2025/05/01/the-perfect-vc-fundraising-schedule/ (poorly written page- you have been warned)
18:04 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fenn what about an oral microphone prosthesis, eg embedded in a retainer.
18:05 < hprmbridge> kanzure> part of the issue solved for here is small critters swiping at earbuds
18:05 < fenn> because they have wires dangling?
18:06 < fenn> how about a necklace?
18:07 < fenn> apparently a lot of throat mics are "fake" which i guess means they are just microphones
18:07 < fenn> which sounds like what you want
18:08 < hprmbridge> kanzure> necklaces are notorious for being swiped? also, the total spoken volume needs to be very low.
18:08 < hprmbridge> kanzure> earbuds are swiped not because of the wires, but because they are something unusual and small creatures optimize for messing with unusual things...
18:09 < hprmbridge> kanzure> air pods do not have wires
18:09 < fenn> right
18:12 < L29Ah> saturate the environment with unusual things
18:19 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "De novo assembly and delivery of synthetic megabase-scale human DNA into mouse early embryos" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41592-025-02746-8
18:19 < hprmbridge> kanzure> for methylation imprinting studies.
18:22 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://searchengineland.com/cloudflare-pay-per-crawl-seo-geo-458310
18:25 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "A chimeric viral platform for directed evolution in mammalian cells" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-59438-2
18:30  * fenn mumbles something about beamforming or tracking parabolic reflector
18:35 < fenn> so cloudflare is literally going to kill the open internet, great
18:41 < hprmbridge> kanzure> well we need alternative proposals
18:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> my idea was switch from ad impressions to pre funding patronage style, but where you don't have to pick the creators upfront
18:44 < L29Ah> sunday is free website access day
18:44 < L29Ah> https://miraikumiko.com/blog/monero_payment_gateway how to get paid
18:55 < fenn> i doubt monero scales to file-level webpage viewing microtransactions for the entire planet
18:56 < fenn> if i have to make an account for each website and maintain a balance, now they have a way to track my interests across sessions...
18:57 < fenn> it's just more shit to worry about, and friction, and burden
18:57 < hprmbridge> kanzure> creators should be able to find sponsorships that align with their content goals. and then take payment.
18:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> but requiring sponsors to find niche creators like via patreon is not a scalable solution
19:00 < fenn> 99% of the time i am looking at a particular website because some other human has linked me to it, and need to understand the content of the specific link they have referenced, not because i particularly value that website
19:00 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yes. so the funding has to come from somewhere else.
19:00 < hprmbridge> kanzure> and apparently it's not advertisers anymore
22:44 < jrayhawk> normalizing HTTP 402 and standardizing payment methods would be a dream come true
--- Log closed Sat Jul 12 00:00:38 2025