--- Log opened Fri Jul 25 00:00:51 2025
01:27 < fenn> https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Americas-AI-Action-Plan.pdf
01:38 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> I keep wondering when we're going to see anti-AI protests on the streets
01:38 < fenn> "The United States must meet global demand for AI by exporting its full AI technology stack— hardware, models, software, applications, and standards—to all countries willing to join America’s AI alliance. A failure to meet this demand would be an unforced error, causing these countries to turn to our rivals. The distribution and diffusion of American technology will stop our strategic
01:38 < fenn> rivals from making our allies dependent on foreign adversary technology."
01:39 < fenn> i wonder what the terms of this deal will be
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07:13 < kanzure> DNA synthesis regulations might accelerate or continue because of safetyism in the government; a government regulator in this area will want to squash all the risk either by designing effective regulations (screening if screening could actually work) or by banning the industry or equipment completely.
07:14 < kanzure> granted, you could simply go find physical ebola and culture it yourself and extract any pathogenic or biosecurity-risk DNA manually, it would probably cost about the same as ordering from a synthesis company anyway, but thankfully synthesis companies are not responsible for that option existing
07:15 < kanzure> if they discover that requiring synthesis companies to screen orders does not actually eliminate synthetic DNA biosecurity risk in their view, then i think they would be more likely to try to ban the domestic synthesis industry and/or go to congress for outlawing instead of just mere regulation through executive order
07:15 < kanzure> in which case the question then turns to: what arguments can the incumbent DNA synthesis companies offer to the government as to why their industry should be allowed to exist?
07:16 < kanzure> things like biotech R&D, anti-disease progress, technological innovation are all pleasant and good arguments that long-term thinkers will enjoy, but these are all hypothetical in a way that a short-term safetyist doesn't entirely care about (e.g. national security risk of bioweapons bypassing government screening)
07:18 < kanzure> s/government screening/government-mandated screening/
07:20 < kanzure> some of this will be accused of being overthinking and that some minimum amount of screening should suffice, which i might even agree with! except the trend seems to be that increasingly onerous and additional terms nad responsibilities are being directed towards the synthesis companies and they don't seem to be fighting back or presently have a way to declare a definitive boundary of "good ...
07:20 < kanzure> ...enough". so therefore i predict that, unless something changes, that these companies will continue to have additional screening and regulatory requirements added by government.
07:22 < kanzure> or as jrayhawk would say the government has a strong interest in externalizing biosecurity accountability to synthesis companies and they seem willing to accept this responsibility (or unable to resist this assignment of responsibility), and the government itself has some sort of unlimited exposure to biosecurity responsibility, so to the extent that these companies can be used to accept this ...
07:22 < kanzure> ...externalized accountability then the government will continue to offload to the companies--- at least until Something Bad Happens (either bypasses the filters or a biosecurity incident unrelated to synthesis companies but still related to synthetic DNA or something)
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07:37 < kanzure> maybe an argument to the government would suffice that it is better to have synthesis companies with screening and monitoring than to eliminate the synthesis companies completely, because most criminals are going to be stupid; allows for ongoing monitoring, screening, KYC, customer profiling, recordskeeping, etc. if the concern is the non-stupid unlimited-agency criminal types, then the ...
07:37 < kanzure> ...existence or non-existence of synthesis companies will not greatly impact those criminal outcomes.
07:38 < kanzure> or "but you will create an even more adversarial black market" arguments, although many governments seem to be immune to this kind of argumentation!
07:39 < kanzure> is "regulatory overreach paradox" (excessively onerous compliance that lacks a "good enough" terminal endpoint incentivizes concealment of near‑misses) a widely recognized phenomena by safetyists or over-regulators?
07:52 < L29Ah> 10:38:21]<hprmbridge> .monokhrome> I keep wondering when we're going to see anti-AI protests on the streets
07:52 < L29Ah> https://nitter.net/chrisprucha/status/1717629943868534980#m
07:54 < kanzure> also: it would be nice to have someone thinking about actual solutions to biosecurity like sealed environments, protocols for establishing contact between space colonies, improved nanopore sensors, nanopore sequencing, non-sequencing nanopore monitoring both in human enclosures and exterior environmental sensors, human genome recoding/resequencing for anti-virus purposes, agriculture livestock ...
07:54 < kanzure> ...recoding, and eventually migrating from vulnerable biologies to more secure solid state alternatives.
07:56 < L29Ah> come check out the «Biosphere 2», i wonder if it is still in operation proper
08:04 < kanzure> more like a network of biosphere II projects and testing are they really able to detect biological threats when linking up to trade human tongue splatter speech or human exhaust gases between each other once they meet.
08:29 < kanzure> oh wow, just got a policy refusal from chatgpt (asking about oocytes)
08:33 < L29Ah> unleash the mechahitler
09:20 < kanzure> "Somatic sex: On the origin of neoplasms with chromosome counts in uneven ploidy ranges" https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/cell-and-developmental-biology/articles/10.3389/fcell.2021.631946/full
09:20 < kanzure> this is a remarkably fascinating article.
09:22 < kanzure> in particular it proposes cell-cell fusions as an explanation for bizarre aneuplodies found in various cancers, which cannot be explained by aberrant mutation accumulation
09:24 < kanzure> apparently tumors have been found with very high chromosome counts and unusual combinations
09:28 < kanzure> "Of specific interest are those biologically and clinically distinct subsets of hematologic malignancies and solid tumors whose genomes are characterized by extraordinary stable chromosome counts in uneven ploidy ranges, including hyperhaploid, hyperdiploid (more than 52 chromosomes) near-triploid, near-pentaploid and near hexaploid ones. [...] The core idea of the now already 30 years old and ...
09:28 < kanzure> ...still endorsed model is that nonrandom uneven ploidy patterns are the outcome of hitherto unidentified genetic or epigenetic perturbations in one or several components of the cell division machinery, which eventually cause the maldistribution of chromosomes most likely in a single abnormal cell division (Paulsson et al., 2005). [...] Both [hypothetical] routes (iii) and (iv), on the other ...
09:28 < kanzure> ...hand, still require multiple convoluted and hypothetical steps to achieve the final form of aneuploidy."
09:29 < kanzure> "The model proposed herein is not only able to reconcile virtually all hitherto accumulated and partly contradicting findings, but it is also able to explain how any such aneuploidies can in principle be straightforwardly generated in a single step. Rather than evoking any particular type of cell-intrinsic causative genetic or epigenetic defects, it suggests that any such nonrandom ...
09:29 < kanzure> ...aneuploidies result from an interaction of mitotic and a G0/G1 cells, either in form of a partial or complete cell fusion."
09:32 < kanzure> various implicaitons for human reproduction are mentioned, such as somatic cell embryos or whatever we are calling those. he also cites a 2017 report of a 7 year old girl with mostly triploid genome- an interesting exception to the observation that "triploid conceptuses can sometimes fully develop and occasionally even survive for several months after birth"
09:33 < kanzure> various fun things from cancer are mentioned as well, including tumor microenvironments that can elicit cell-cell fusion as being somewhat analogous to testicles or ovaries which also create specific microenvironments for cell-cell fusion or other differentiation.
09:34 < kanzure> or, and i don't know where he mentioned this but i saw it, something about cancerous cells incubating intracellular parasite cells, as a result of cell-cell fusion eents.
09:34 < kanzure> *events
09:34 < kanzure> "... some spermatocytes are supposed to acquire certain oocyte-specific features that would render them penetrable for other sperms, a notion that also suffices to explain the high risk of developing testicular germ cell tumors in phenotypic female but genetically male individuals (Muretto et al., 2001; Lu et al., 2005). The most thought-provoking issue of such postulated fusion processes is ...
09:34 < kanzure> ...obviously that these phenomena completely blur and traverse the borders of germ and somatic cell domains (Grichnik, 2008)."
09:47 < kanzure> i am not sure how well-known it is among the cancer people that a lot of what's going on is micro-evolution and selection within tissues for cells that can survive and proliferate; what should probably be more astonishing is that cancer is rare, and not that tumors happen at all.
09:54 < kanzure> unclear to me but some cancerpeople might believe in "spontaneous dedifferentiation" which would be a very cool and very useful result, although seems unlikely to me.
11:06 < kanzure> "Oocytes in the testis" https://www.nature.com/articles/283688a0 (1980)
11:07 < kanzure> "Oocytes in newborn mouse testes" https://academic.oup.com/biolreprod/article-abstract/79/1/9/2557490
11:10 < kanzure> "testicular oocytes" https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C44&q=%22testicular+oocytes%22&btnG=
11:15 < kanzure> some tried and reported successful fusing of mouse sperm with mouse testicular eggs https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.0406769102
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11:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> i wonder if any of the fish androgenesis stuff is actually just testicular oocytes, instead of maternal genome elimination
11:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ah, androgenetic fish apparently retain maternal mtDNA. okay then.
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12:46 < kanzure> "Adult bi-paternal offspring generated through direct modification of imprinted genes in mammals" https://www.cell.com/cell-stem-cell/fulltext/S1934-5909(25)00005-0 (2025)
12:46 < kanzure> "Fertile androgenetic mice generated by targeted epigenetic editing of imprinting control regions" https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.2425307122 (2025)
12:46 < kanzure> at least one of those two papers was previously discussed in this channel. don't remember which.
12:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> editor asleep at the wheel https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1398392938920280279/image.jpg?ex=68853269&is=6883e0e9&hm=23b650785d8657df1cf84beba27c834d931d8a1f76e6d8d76fcf98fccecea72e&
13:14 < kanzure> fetiform teratoma homunculus (not an ectopic pregnancy) (a teratoma resembling a malformed fetus) https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2582647/
13:27 < kanzure> also it's not "fetus-in-fetu"
14:37 < kanzure> fetiform homunculus teratoma with a brain of its own https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/bdra.10133
15:04 < hprmbridge> kanzure> lol wtf "During medieval and early modern times, it was thought that homunculus, an artificial humanlike being, could be created through alchemy.[1] The homunculus first appears by name in alchemical writings attributed to Paracelsus (1493–1541). De natura rerum (1537) outlines his method for creating homunculi: That the sperm of a man be putrefied by itself in a sealed cucurbit for forty days
15:04 < hprmbridge> kanzure> with the highest degree of putrefaction in a horse's womb ["venter equinus", meaning "warm, fermenting horse dung"[2]], or at least so long that it comes to life and moves itself, and stirs, which is easily observed. After this time, it will look somewhat like a man, but transparent, without a body. If, after this, it be fed wisely with the Arcanum of human blood, and be nourished for up to forty
15:04 < hprmbridge> kanzure> weeks, and be kept in the even heat of the horse's womb, a living human child grows therefrom, with all its members like another child, which is born of a woman, but much smaller.[3]: 328–329 "
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19:02 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://youtu.be/rXPpkzdS-q4
19:25 < fenn> i think the USDA RDA for calcium is too high. there's no way you can get that much without supplementing or eating cheese
19:25 < fenn> you'd have to have 4 plates of collard greens every day
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19:31  * L29Ah supplements
19:31 < L29Ah> those kindeys and sweat glands will dump the possible excess alright
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20:24 < jrayhawk> pathological ectopic calcification and clotting due to regulatory overload is endemic in the U.S. population, including arterial calcification, aortic valve calcification, strokes, kidney stones, gal stones, bone spurs, calcified ligaments, hip and wrist ossification, etc.
20:24 < jrayhawk> standard of care considers this a disease of aging, but really it's a disease of the consequences of doing dumb shit accumulating over time
20:25 < jrayhawk> a disease of epistemology
20:29 < jrayhawk> the USDA's mandate is to promote U.S. agriculture, not U.S. health.
20:36 < jrayhawk> actual calcium insufficiency is rare in the U.S.; almost always what's going on is insufficiency of regulatory molecules: retinoids, vitamin-D, and menatetrenone, or other bone-forming minerals, most commonly magnesium (due to the USDA's motivated disregard for bioavailability issues around phytate-bound magnesium and inorganic magnesium)
20:40 < jrayhawk> (they will similarly lie their asses off about vitamin equivalent in the case of "K" and "A")
20:40 < jrayhawk> er, equivalence
20:47 < L29Ah> jrayhawk: do you keep structured public notes on your lots of findings re optimal food anywhere?
20:49 < jrayhawk> Nope. It's rare that I have much original to say.
20:50 < fenn> i think most of those diseases you listed are due to inadequate K2
20:51 < jrayhawk> That's a perfectly reasonable framing.
20:52 < fenn> the cows don't eat grass anymore?
20:52 < fenn> why is poultry so much more efficient at converting K1 to K2?
20:53 < jrayhawk> Poultry are bred to produce a ludicrous excess of eggs.
20:53 < fenn> geese are the best
20:53 < fenn> did they breed geese to produce eggs?
20:53 < jrayhawk> Oh, that's surprising.
20:53 < jrayhawk> I have no explanation, then.
20:55 < jrayhawk> The more complete framing is "calcium load exceeding regulatory capacity", but increasing regulatory capacity, as you imply, is the less error-prone approach.
20:59 < fenn> right
20:59 < fenn> there's value in having bigger humans, it makes sense why the state would push that
21:00 < fenn> the recommendations should change a lot once you stop growing
21:00 < jrayhawk> because enlarged hearts and arteries make americans supermen
21:01 < fenn> you can shoot blood lasers out of your eyes
21:02 < jrayhawk> bone spurs can turn us into Wolverine
21:02 < fenn> "the Norwegian cheese Jarlsberg was one of the best vitamin K2 sources with 73 mcg of vitamin K2 per 100 grams" and as a bonus it actually tastes good
21:06 < fenn> when i did the math, kerrygold was not that great vs factory produced butter
21:08 < fenn> i calculated the most realistic source of k2 was chicken thighs (assuming you can't eat natto, which i can't) but this says it's only 24ug/100g so you'd have to eat 500g of chicken thighs a day
21:08 < jrayhawk> at this point i look at people who use the word "vitamin" with approximately the same amount of epistemic respect as people who use "humour" or "miasma"
21:09 < jrayhawk> it is a system of categorization that just makes people dumber
21:10 < jrayhawk> like believing that natto is comperable to chicken thighs or butter
21:11 < fenn> aside from the gene modulation from mk-4 i think natto is better? it lasts longer in the blood due to the longer tail
21:11 < fenn> if your goal is to live long not grow tall
21:11 < jrayhawk> it lasts longer in the blood because it doesn't get tissue uptake from lipoprotein lipase and is instead continuously recycled in the liver
21:12 < jrayhawk> due to being pushed into the center of lipoproteins by relatively low lipophilicity
21:13 < fenn> can we just make mk-4 with a modified strain?
21:13 < fenn> this is a stupid problem
21:13 < jrayhawk> it's like saying zinc picolinate is better because it lasts longer in the blood
21:16 < jrayhawk> natto also lacks the bioavailble nutrient concentration of a bajillion other things, but, sure, if you want to play mesa-alignment whack-a-mole
21:17 < jrayhawk> and also tastes like death, from what i am told
21:17 < fenn> well we're not going back to hunting roaming herds of bison and the chief eating the warm liver straight out of the beast
21:19 < jrayhawk> Butter and chicken seem fine.
21:21 < jrayhawk> I mean, as a range of options. Obviously butter has its issues with some people. (Caseine peptides with dangerously unregulated binding affinities, lactose-driven overgrowth, SFAs exacerbating lipoprotein processing disorders...)
21:28 < jrayhawk> i am an egg man, myself
21:29 < fenn> huh NCBI is down for 24 hours "for maintenance"
21:30 < fenn> or more
21:32 < jrayhawk> it's going to come back with an Anubis PoW firewall, isn't it
21:33 < jrayhawk> EPMC already agonizingly slowballs their direct http retrival system
21:36 < fenn> cloudflare already agonizingly slowballs everything for me
21:37 < fenn> eventually the AI companies will be the only ones with a decent mirror
21:37 < jrayhawk> huh, cloudflare's acceptance and rejection has always been lightning fast for me
21:38 < fenn> takes about 10 seconds for me
21:39 < fenn> nitter does it too
21:40 < fenn> i have all the privacy shit turned on
21:40 < jrayhawk> are there nitter interfaces without anubis anymore?
21:41 < fenn> i'm not sure what nitter's doing, it doesn't use a lot of CPU
21:43 < fenn> maybe it's just an anubis skin
21:43 < jrayhawk> of the five i have seen twiiit redirect to in the past few months, none of them support unchallenged requests
22:08 < fenn> they add menadione to poultry feed
22:18 < fenn> it increases the egg shell thickness?
22:18 < fenn> "Menadione sodium bisulfite complex has a GRAS status for use in poultry feed at 2 to 4 g per ton of feed ... States and FDA have given low regulatory priority for use of the above vitamin as source of vitamin K in other species’ feeds including pet food."
22:19 < fenn> dejavu link-up point
22:31 < jrayhawk> i am having NCBI withdrawal already
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--- Log closed Sat Jul 26 00:00:52 2025