--- Log opened Fri Aug 01 00:00:57 2025
01:04 -!- Gooberpatrol66 [~Gooberpat@user/gooberpatrol66] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
01:05 -!- Gooberpatrol66 [~Gooberpat@user/gooberpatrol66] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:57  * fenn squints at "herasight" - heretic? parasite? gotta work on that branding
02:32 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-82-174.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Avoid fossil fuels and animal products. Have no/fewer children. Protest, elect sane politicians. Invest ecologically.]
02:33 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-82-174.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:55 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: justanotheruser
03:02 < hprmbridge> kanzure> greek god that tossed a child off a cliff
03:14 < fenn> oh snap
03:15 < fenn> that makes a lot of sense, but then we wouldn't have hephaestus
03:22 < fenn> Black and white image of Hephaestus in a winged, wheelchair-like chariot, adorned with crane motifs, within a white circle; from circa 550 B.C.E https://www.flickr.com/photos/capriuni/5673353509/
03:23 < fenn> durned time travelers muckin up muh timeline
03:27 < fenn> "It's not hard to imagine that the first hammer was invented by someone who lacked the hand or arm strength to smash open a marrow bone or nut with a rock alone... And then, others in the clan kept finding reason to borrow it, and make their own. Seen in this way, all technology is assistive technology."
03:38 < fenn> if we use very young females for egg donation will this increase the number of eggs recovered to an absurd amount?
03:38 < fenn> i remember the graph being very steep and somewhat mind boggling
03:39 < fenn> note log plot https://images.ctfassets.net/iqo3fk8od6t9/r5D47o3UIdFqpB68U3Lk3/a7e56fff4db3d8be6ac569716c43e16d/Female_fertility.jpg
03:40 < fenn> that only shows a 10x difference
03:41 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yields from young women are often 20-50+ eggs
03:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> or for sufficiently young males you can find eggs in the testes https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/in-vitro-fertilization/Oocytes%20in%20newborn%20mouse%20testes%20-%202008.pdf
03:44 < fenn> how much more than 50?
03:45 < fenn> what causes the sharp increase in the rate of egg loss around age 30?
03:46 < fenn> is there a way to slow that down
03:46 < fenn> "lifelong consumption of a diet rich in omega-3 fatty acids"?
03:47 < fenn> .t https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5624332/
03:47 < saxo> Prolonging the female reproductive lifespan and improving egg quality with dietary omega-3 fatty acids - PMC
03:50 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@gateway/tor-sasl/justanotheruser] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:51 < fenn> is menopause even natural?
03:57 < hprmbridge> kanzure> see also https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/in-vitro-fertilization/Postnatal%20oogenesis%20review%20-%202024.pdf
04:30 < TMA> fenn: there are arguments for (freerange humans have been observed to have it) and against (you should be already dead by then) evolutionary biologists think it has positive fitness impact ("grandma" theory) as opposed to "grandmas" having children themselves in advanced age
04:31 < fenn> "freerange humans"?
04:32 < fenn> i was unable to find any studies on menopause age in populations eating a traditional high omega-3 low omega-6 diet, primarily on account of them not existing anymore
04:35 < fenn> another fun question is why women have breasts in the first place
04:36 < fenn> i read a very tortured explanation about game theory and avoiding mate competition by pretending you're already pregnant, but it wasn't very convincing
04:37 < fenn> https://web.archive.org/web/20100918101115/https://www.evolution-x.com/breasts.htm
04:39 < TMA> fenn: "savages" in XIXth century parlance
04:40 < fenn> well the savages all eat spam and cheetos like the rest of us now
04:40 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> There are hunter gatherers like the  Tsimane who have unusually good health into old age, they definitely experience menopause
04:40 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5421261/
04:41 < fenn> "They are primarily a subsistence agriculture culture" says wikipedia
04:41 < fenn> "although hunting and fishing contribute significantly to many"
04:42 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> They hardly get cardiovascular disease in old age, which suggests they are free of the ravages of modern diets and lifestyle
04:44 < fenn> i'm sorry, but that's not good enough
04:44 < fenn> maybe they're only 50% unhealthy instead of 100% unhealthy
04:48 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> I would think immunity to cardiovascular disease would be at least as interesting as not getting menopause
04:48 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)30752-3/abstract
04:49 < fenn> well yes of course it's good, but we (channel members anyway) already knew that
04:50 < fenn> .t
04:50 < saxo> Just a moment...
04:50 < fenn> "Coronary atherosclerosis in indigenous South American Tsimane"
04:51 < fenn> monokhrome the reason i'm asking is it would be nice if there were something women could do to delay the decline in eggs
04:52 < fenn> we have all sorts of advanced ways to intervene now
04:52 < fenn> i talked to a woman who spent $100k to have her eggs frozen
04:53 < fenn> that seems like an excessively large hurdle, and there's also the whole painful procedure
04:53 < fenn> vs say, a dietary supplement that makes you feel younger and healthier
04:54 < fenn> DHEA used to be a thing and then the FDA killed it (?)
04:55 < fenn> like maybe we should start taking DHEA at 30
04:56 < fenn> or even 25, looking at the graph
04:59 < fenn> for any other health problem we don't tell people to wait until they start having problems to take preventative action
05:05 < fenn> the tsimane high-BMI fertility is the same at 45-50 as for the age range 15-19
05:06 < TMA> fenn: they didn't at the time they were "discovered"; the article "not good enough" is another data point for "naturalness"
05:08 < fenn> https://fennetic.net/irc/tsimane_fertility.png vs https://www.scielosp.org/media/assets/bwho/v78n5/02f2.gif
05:08 < fenn> looks to me like they really pushed that curve out
05:09 < fenn> (tsimane chart is for females)
05:09 < L29Ah> how did they determine ages?
05:09 < fenn> heh
05:10 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydroepiandrosterone hmm zero mentions of FDA
05:12 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> That's a fair question - apparently they have government ids which give their year of birth, but they're illiterate and have little documentation regarding their lives, so maybe some of them aren't as old as is claimed
05:14 < fenn> weird i could swear it was banned for OTC sale
05:14 < fenn> LEF made a big stink about it
05:15 < fenn> must be another mandela effect
05:16 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> is dhea a performance enhancing drug, banned in sports?
05:16 < L29Ah> my european fren buys DHEA OTC
05:16 < fenn> MuaddibLLM: is dhea a performance enhancing drug, banned in sports?
05:16 < MuaddibLLM> Yes, DHEA is banned by WADA and most major sports organizations as an anabolic agent since it's a testosterone precursor - it's been on the prohibited list since at least 2004.
05:18 < fenn> https://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2007/6/cover_dhea
05:24 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> You sure dhea actually extends healthy fertility and doesn't just interfere with menopause, which may be natural and advantageous?
05:25 < fenn> i'm pretty sure menopause is a train wreck for women experiencing it, and society turns a blind eye the same as for other aging related diseases
05:25 < L29Ah> please don't use "natural", everything is
05:26 < fenn> i don't think anyone has tried lifelong DHEA supplementation since 25 so there would be no data at all
05:26 < fenn> i mean this is all wild speculation, i don't know how any of this stuff works
05:26 -!- gl00ten3 [~gl00ten@bl5-239-125.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:27 < fenn> personally i don't give a rat's ass about "the grandmother effect" if it means i have to suffer and die
05:28 < fenn> yes it may be natural and advantageous in some situation which is not the world i live in
05:29 < fenn> for genes, on average
05:35 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
05:35 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:05 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@gateway/tor-sasl/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:13 < kanzure> fenn: what is the specific ask here? delay menopause? rescue from menopause? preserve.. fertility?
08:14 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@gateway/tor-sasl/justanotheruser] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:16 < kanzure> females have mammaries because skin secretions were egg protective or otherwise nourishing to eggs or younglings and lessened dependency on egg yolk. also helps avoid a need for regurgitative feeding.
08:46 < hprmbridge> Eli> Ovaries are the fastest aging organ. It’s a problem and people are trying to figure it out. Apparently, “geriatric ovaries” is a legit science term.
08:55 < L29Ah> hmm, Artemyev claims he moved his aging research institute from Moscow to New York because it is easier and cheaper there (in 2013)
08:55 < L29Ah> and now i can't find it, the domain name is long gone
08:57 < L29Ah> https://web.archive.org/web/20120601000000*/http://bioaging.ru/ apparently the site never existed properly
08:57 < L29Ah> mayhaps that was some sort of charity laundering stuff
09:01 < kanzure> dunno where my notes are but one of my proposed interventions was something about targeting the short period where follicle and egg differentiation begins in an attempt to cause excess cell splitting. if you can 10x or 100x total lifetime egg supply then that would be a reasonably useful outcome for fertility purposes.
09:04 < kanzure> what do we even need eggs for if homunculus teratomas are real
09:19 < jrayhawk> there is an unusual amount of metabolic-syndrome-driven pathology to ovaries, such as the relationship between PCOS and insulin resistance.
09:21 < jrayhawk> i too lazy to look into it, but i suspect the recursive feedback cycle between histamine and estrogens would make them unusually vulnerable to inflammation
09:27 < kanzure> "Although fetus-in-fetu is thought to be a benign disorder, follow-up is necessary as a precaution against malignant recurrence, which has been described once."
09:29 < kanzure> what a sick joke. it's obviously because the diagnosis is wrong. it's not fetus-in-fetu if it has recurrence. what, the embedded fetus regenerated from a single cell left behind? it wasn't fully extracted? there was a delayed fetal lifeform that started developing post birth? come on....
09:29 < kanzure> recurrence would suggest that homunculus fetiform teratoma is a more correct diagnosis.
09:35 < kanzure> or check via zygosity at least.
10:01 < jrayhawk> wow, that testicular oocyte thing is disorienting
10:01 < jrayhawk> thanks for posting that
11:26 < kanzure> indeed!
14:13 < hprmbridge> kanzure> herasight pricing is approximately 50k https://x.com/hsu_steve/status/1951263974747488601
16:00 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-82-174.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
16:41 < hprmbridge> kanzure> kimi-k2-turbo-preview is reporting 40 tokens/sec. cerebras qwen3-coder-480b-a35b-instruct is reporting 2000 tokens/sec.
16:41 < hprmbridge> kanzure> windsurf posted a demo video of 'qwen3 fast' https://x.com/windsurf/status/1951340259192742063 wow.
16:47 < hprmbridge> kanzure> oh you can pin cerebras as the provider via openrouter. okay. possibly no caching that way.
17:22 -!- stipa_ [~stipa@user/stipa] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:24 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@gateway/tor-sasl/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:24 -!- stipa [~stipa@user/stipa] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:24 -!- stipa_ is now known as stipa
17:58 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@gateway/tor-sasl/justanotheruser] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:15 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Most academic discussion of this is dominated by ethicists talking about how problematic it is or academics talking about its limitations. Among the academics that care about this, a large majority are opposed to embryo selection for ideological reasons."
18:17 < L29Ah> plz no quoting anonymous dumbos
18:18 < hprmbridge> kanzure> GeneSmith
18:58 < L29Ah> .t https://www.lifespan.io/news/study-finds-metformins-action-is-regulated-by-the-brain/
18:58 < saxo> Study Finds Metformin’s Action Is Regulated by the Brain
20:23 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@idlerpg/player/Malvolio] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:00 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@idlerpg/player/Malvolio] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:24 -!- Gooberpatrol66 [~Gooberpat@user/gooberpatrol66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:34 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-82-174.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:54 -!- Gooberpatrol66 [~Gooberpat@user/gooberpatrol66] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:23 < fenn> https://www.helionenergy.com/articles/starting-to-build-the-worlds-first-fusion-power-plant-in-malaga-wa/
--- Log closed Sat Aug 02 00:00:58 2025