--- Log opened Tue Aug 26 00:00:21 2025
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01:40 < fenn>  Croatian freediver Vitomir Maričić broke the world record for longest human breath hold for 29 minutes. he breathed pure oxygen for several minutes before making his attempt.
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02:43 < fenn> https://devonzuegel.com/ivf-egg-retrieval-notes
02:46 < fenn> only 29 injections!
02:49 < fenn> 33 for round 2
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03:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yeah it's elaborate
04:16 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "intraovarian injection of platelet-rich plasma" improves egg yield
04:19 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "We, therefore, hypothesized that more oocytes could be obtained by continuing ovarian stimulation after the first oocyte retrieval under direct ovarian administration of rhFSH" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9219872/
04:20 < hprmbridge> kanzure> there's just so much backwards science out there.. why is direct intraovarian stimulation only a recent thing?
04:21 < hprmbridge> kanzure> we ought to demand manuscripts include a "Why we did not think of this earlier and why we are stupid" sections.
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05:40 < fenn> "sometimes there are things that are invented that seem obvious in retrospect"
05:41 < fenn> .t https://youtu.be/YZkLQsv3huo
05:41 < saxo> Demonstrating a technique to track Stealth Fighters with cheap cameras. - Director's cut / Q\u0026A.
05:50 < fenn> he says the technique can be used for upgrading scanning electron microscopes and ultrasound, not sure how that would work
06:01 < fenn> could be useful for BCI?
06:03 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what is the technique
06:05 < fenn> project a cone of pixel gaussian into a voxel grid, each grid location accumulates the pixel density and with multiple cameras you get hot spots are the locations where an object in 3d space actually is located, even if it's only 1 faint pixel in the original image. he also uses differences between frames to amplify sensitivity, which usually makes a mess due to noise, but this type of noise
06:05 < fenn> doesn't bother the voxel accumulator
06:06 < fenn> he says ray tracing but that doesn't seem right to me
06:06 < fenn> honestly i thought this was how CT worked
06:09 < fenn> i have concerns about distortion in the media like from density differences in air or seawater, or irregular skull density
06:10 < fenn> also high resolution voxel grids use a lot of ram
06:11 < fenn> maybe there is some clever tiling chunking method to speed up ray projection and accumulation
06:12 < fenn> you'd have to tile and chunk in 3 dimensions instead of the usual 2 dimensions for matrix multiplication
06:20 < L29Ah> .t https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-025-03861-x
06:20 < saxo> Pig-to-human lung xenotransplantation into a brain-dead recipient | Nature Medicine
06:24 < hprmbridge> kanzure> 200 hours? I thought egenesis has had months of implantation time.
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09:41 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "One reason to not spend overly much time lawyering the meaning of words to minimize LLM’s capabilities is that you should not want to redefine thinking such that many humans have never thought."
09:44 < L29Ah> MuaddibLLM: what does this even mean
09:44 < MuaddibLLM> L29Ah: It’s a warning that if you define “thinking” narrowly just to exclude LLMs (e.g., must have introspective self-models, explicit symbols, long-horizon goals), you’ll also exclude lots of humans some of the time - so don’t move the goalposts so far that ordinary human cognition wouldn’t count.
09:47 < hprmbridge> kanzure> qwen edit https://openart.ai/workflows/make_dawn/qwen-all-in-one-cockpit-wqwen-edit/XJvWfntXU3fFX4flmhiB
09:55 < TMA> but many humans have never thought regardless of any particular definition of thinking that does not forgo correctness or certain level of complexity
09:57 < TMA> human males are capable recognizing the voice of their females asking them a question of a form 'will you X?' and answer it with 'I will' whithout even being aware of the fact
09:58 < TMA> the feat is much more impressive in other languages than English, where it requires actually declining the verb correctly
09:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://developers.googleblog.com/en/introducing-gemini-2-5-flash-image/
09:59 < TMA> thinking is much rarer than expected of humans
10:07 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Fenn cool video, I was just working on something that smells similar a few weeks ago, but for X-ray images of a circuit board. The gantry moved the PCB under the camera and got perspective distortion and occlusion from tall components on the surface or from different metal traces in the buried layers... I need to think about the image diff stuff, since the camera was moving in larger steps like
10:07 < hprmbridge> nmz787> 30% of the field at a time
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10:38 < hprmbridge> kanzure> LLM ranking comparison tool https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/kimi-k2
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13:51 < kanzure> jrayhawk: does criu work for arbitrary gui state on linux?
13:53 < kanzure> is there an application that implements this for randomized criu of long-unused inactive windows?
13:58 < L29Ah> kanzure: no
14:02 < kanzure> hmph
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14:07 < jrayhawk> Sure, though you'd need a means of detaching each userspace's worth of windows with e.g. xpra.
14:09 < kanzure> nah this is for my localhost
14:10 < jrayhawk> Yeah, you'd still need to freeze a whole compositor/window manager per userspace in order to get it to work out.
14:10 < kanzure> oof
14:11 < hprmbridge> nmz787> time to build a multi threaded window manager?
14:11 < jrayhawk> I haven't seen anyone do this, but I imagine the Qubes folks would have the most incentive to make it happen.
14:11 < L29Ah> it is not about threads, it is about restoring compositor-side state
14:11 < kanzure> qubes would simply tell you to use more disposable VMs and just suspend them
14:12 < jrayhawk> Yeah, really this would just be "Qubes without the virtio/kernels"
14:14 < kanzure> is this worth any brainjuice? why not just launch applications into separate VMs and suspend them that way.
14:14 < L29Ah> why not just implement proper state saving functionality in your gui app instead of dumping its entire memory and hairy stuff over that
14:15 < jrayhawk> Firejail might actually be close to doing that by now. I lost track of their architecture after they did some rewriting, but I know they were condoming everything through xpra for a while.
14:15 < L29Ah> firejail does nothing to gui by itself
14:15 < L29Ah> it can shove xpra to the contained software comfortably, yes
14:15 < kanzure> L29Ah: well mainly my use case is terminals and browsers. and ideally i'm supposed to use browsers by one-tab-per-window but it's hard to enforce that in modern browsers.
14:15 < L29Ah> xpra is slow tho
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14:16 < kanzure> so, given the limited set of gui applications on my hit list here, yeah maybe customizing each one is plausible
14:16 < kanzure> L29Ah: jrayhawk has built some fairly fast xpra infrastructure
14:18 < L29Ah> faster than virtualbox with the video acceleration virtio thing?
14:18 < jrayhawk> probably not super practical for running Blender, no
14:19 < jrayhawk> Not at 4k, anyway.
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14:20 < L29Ah> i tried to use regular xpra for browser and didn't like it, ended up containing it with apparmor and hoping for the best
14:20 < L29Ah> also https://github.com/VirtualGL/virtualgl/issues/37 is concerning
14:21 < L29Ah> so far the best news is xnamespace being rolled out in xlibre, but it needs more work
14:32 < jrayhawk> i wonder if you can make some sort of general-purpose "don't exit, attempt to reconnect and resynchronize to wayland compositor" shim http://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/qt6_wayland_robustness/
14:33 < jrayhawk> which can then just be slapped in front of xwayland or whatever else you care about detaching
14:35 < L29Ah> big if true
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15:39 < jrayhawk> re: worth the brainjuice: I think there's four different levels you could tackle this at. 1) https://github.com/munabedan/incul-manager is already trying to do disciplined qubes-like containerized applications for which criu is probably extremely simple. 2) Modify Firejail for a ad-hocy best-effort sort of gui isolation with xpra that will probably work for 90% of usecases, 3) modify xpra to do 
15:39 < jrayhawk> wayland things (like pass around descriptors for zero-copy shared memory operations) (I think this is already a WIP within the project), or 4) analyze the qt6.6 wayland detachment stuff and see if it can be generalized into client libraries or stuck into a WAYLAND_DISPLAY socket shim or something. 3) might turn into 4).
15:40 < jrayhawk> 1) is probably practicall free, the rest are probably in the $500-10k range of developer time. I am not qualified to be doing that work or estimating that work, however.
15:41 < jrayhawk> 4) is the most architecturally sensible option long-term.
15:48 < jrayhawk> stuff like dbus gets very messy in all situations, though
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16:23 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://github.com/LadybirdBrowser/ladybird/pull/5678
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17:02 < hprmbridge> kanzure> zolmitriptan for axon regeneration and nerve repair https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589514125001318
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17:12 < L29Ah> serotonin receptor agonists are at it again
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18:54 < fenn> nmz787: you should plant some Berberis nervosa or Berberis_aquifolium (oregon grape)
18:55 < fenn> for the apocalypse, you know. or perhaps to sell the roots
19:07 < L29Ah> MuaddibLLM: is soap a good way to stockpile food for apocalypse and societal breakdown?
19:07 < MuaddibLLM> As food, hell no - soap’s mildly toxic - but for apocalypse prep it’s great: cheap unscented hard bars keep basically forever if dry, are gold for hygiene and barter, you can DIY from fats+lye, and you should stock real calories (rice/beans/oil/salt/vit C) to actually eat.
19:08 < L29Ah> MuaddibLLM: what's toxic in soap?
19:08 < MuaddibLLM> Mostly the alkalinity and surfactant action: true soap (fatty acid sodium/potassium salts) is caustic if concentrated or if there’s unreacted lye, and modern bars often add detergents, fragrances, dyes, antibacterial agents, and preservatives that irritate mucosa; swallowing small amounts usually just causes nausea/diarrhea, but larger doses can burn, disrupt electrolytes, or aspirate into lungs.
19:09 < L29Ah> MuaddibLLM: there is acid in stomach, and there's an option to acquire additive-free soap bars
19:09 < MuaddibLLM> True, HCl will protonate soap into fatty acids + NaCl, but before that it’s a pH 9-11 surfactant that can irritate or burn mouth/esophagus and trigger vomiting/aspiration, and even additive-free bars can have residual lye - keep soap for cleaning/barter and stock actual calories like oil or lard for eating.
19:09 < L29Ah> MuaddibLLM: there are neutral soaps too
19:10 < MuaddibLLM> L29Ah: in practice “neutral soap” is almost always a syndet bar (pH ~7, eg sodium lauroyl isethionate blends) not true soap - real soap’s inherently alkaline (pH 9-11) even when superfatted, and either way it’s a surfactant not food, so still a hard no for eating; stash oil/lard/rice for calories and plain unscented bars for washing.
19:12 < fenn> crisco
19:12 < fenn> noooo they changed it!!! nevermind
19:15 < fenn> i have no idea where to get fully hydrogenated oil
19:20 < jrayhawk> it's not biologically appropriate. cell membranes maintain homeoviscosity by using a mixture of fatty acid saturations.
19:22 < L29Ah> MuaddibLLM: what are fatty acid compositions of membranes of various human tissues?
19:22 < MuaddibLLM> grabbing solid refs on tissue-specific membrane fatty acids, gimme a sec
19:22 < jrayhawk> https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=oleate+palmitate+ratio+insulin+resistance there are also more direct signalling mechanisms at play
19:22 < MuaddibLLM> need better data with actual percentages, that was just references
19:23 < MuaddibLLM> found some brain DHA data (12-14%) but need more tissue-specific breakdowns
19:23 < MuaddibLLM> L29Ah: Brain membranes are ~12-14% DHA (the highest of any tissue), ~45% saturated FAs; RBC membranes are ~35-45% saturated, 15-23% monounsaturated, 24-34% omega-6, 6-9% omega-3 PUFAs; heart/liver/muscle have similar ~45% saturated trends but I don't have complete tissue-specific breakdowns - comprehensive human membrane lipid atlases are surprisingly sparse in literature (sources: 
19:23 < MuaddibLLM> https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7146513/ and https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5373010/).
19:25 < L29Ah> MuaddibLLM: how do mammals maintain the fatty acid proportions of their membranes given the diverse and changing diets?
19:26 < MuaddibLLM> grabbing solid sources on membrane FA homeostasis and remodeling
19:26 < MuaddibLLM> L29Ah: Mammals use sophisticated homeostatic membrane remodeling - when dietary PUFAs get incorporated (within hours), they rapidly upregulate saturated fatty acids and cholesterol via SREBP2 transcriptional control to compensate and maintain membrane packing/permeability; they also downregulate desaturases (SCD1/SCD2) to reduce further unsaturation, essentially doing "homeoviscous adaptation" like cold-adapted organisms 
19:26 < MuaddibLLM> but for dietary perturbations (source: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7067841/).
19:35 < jrayhawk> humans are only partially adapted to high-SFA diets (as evidenced by the recent and incomplete loss of ApoE4), but even those of us so adapted are used to naturally occuring oils like dairy, lard, tallow, coconut, or palm that have a reasonable oleate-to-palmitate ratio
19:38 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Sfa?
19:38 < jrayhawk> saturated fatty acid
19:38 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Hmm so my declaration of only buying seed oils for non nutritional support items (i.e. snacks) might be ok?
19:39 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Or is there some big enough diff between non seed  unsaturated oils, and seed unsaturated?
19:40 < jrayhawk> MUFAs are largely stable at human body temperature, PUFAs are not.
19:44 < jrayhawk> MuaddibLLM: can you also talk about compensatory cholesterol synthesis, packaging, and distribution for inclusion in membranes on an SFA-rich diet?
19:45 < MuaddibLLM> grabbing primary refs on SREBP2/INSIG-SCAP, ACAT2/MTP VLDL packaging, and LDL/HDL trafficking under SFA load
19:45 < MuaddibLLM> diving deeper into cholesterol compensation mechanisms under high SFA load
19:45 < MuaddibLLM> jrayhawk: High SFA diets trigger SREBP-2 upregulation which cranks HMG-CoA reductase for more cholesterol synthesis; this gets packaged into smaller, denser VLDL particles (since SFA makes tighter TG packing), then distributed via LDL/HDL to tissues where it's preferentially incorporated into membranes to offset the rigidifying effect of excess palmitate/stearate - essentially the body floods membranes with cholesterol to 
19:45 < MuaddibLLM> maintain optimal fluidity when dietary SFA would otherwise make them too stiff (sources: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3119913/ and https://lipidworld.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12944-023-01993-y).
19:46 < jrayhawk> ah, that's better
19:52 < jrayhawk> this is one of the tragedies of statins; quality of life goes way down (memory loss, lethargy, rhabdo) because cells can no longer maintain homeoviscosity
19:58 < jrayhawk> fenn: good directional thinking, though. even when i buy really nice high-carotinoid tallow, it goes bad by like an inch every three months wherever it's exposed to oxygen when solid and all the way through when liquid, while even cheap pasteurized coconut oil is fine at 12 months.
19:59 < jrayhawk> in the future i think i am just going to use a fridge or freezer for bulk oils.
20:02 < L29Ah> MuaddibLLM: at what heat transfer (in watts) do compressor freezers become superior to peltier ones wrt energy efficiency?
20:03 < MuaddibLLM> ok, hunting for solid COP vs load data for TECs vs compressor freezers
20:03 < MuaddibLLM> need actual numbers on COP vs heat load - hunting for thermal engineering papers
20:03 < MuaddibLLM> paper has TEC COPs (0.4-4.1) but need actual crossover data vs compressor systems
20:04 < MuaddibLLM> L29Ah: Can't find solid data on the exact crossover point, but generally TECs have COPs ~0.5-1.5 while compressor systems run ~3-4 COP - so compressor systems are typically more efficient at virtually all practical heat loads above maybe 10-20W; TECs only make sense for very small loads (<50W) where compressor complexity/size/vibration matters more than efficiency (sources searched extensively but no specific watt 
20:04 < MuaddibLLM> crossover studies found).
20:17 < jrayhawk> MuaddibLLM: What are good examples of incomplete human genetic adaptation to high-SFA (e.g. coconut, palm, ruminant) diets besides familial hypercholesterolemia, ApoE4, and various thyroid disorders?
20:18 < MuaddibLLM> on it - pulling gene–SFA interaction refs so I don’t hand-wave
20:18 < MuaddibLLM> need more specific gene variants showing incomplete SFA adaptation - hunting population genetics data
20:18 < MuaddibLLM> struggling to find solid examples beyond the ones you mentioned - may need to pivot to general mechanisms
20:18 < MuaddibLLM> jrayhawk: Honestly struggling to find solid examples beyond what you mentioned - most genetic variants affecting SFA metabolism aren't framed as "incomplete adaptations" in the literature, but there are some candidates: PCSK9 variants (affecting LDL receptor degradation), CYP7A1 polymorphisms (bile acid synthesis from cholesterol varies ~3-fold between individuals), GALNT2 variants (HDL metabolism), and subtle LDLR 
20:19 < MuaddibLLM> variants below the FH threshold that still affect cholesterol handling - but these are more "individual metabolic variation" than clearly documented incomplete evolutionary adaptations to high-SFA diets.
20:22 < fenn> the idea wasn't to maintain optimal health it was to provide long term shelf stable calories
20:24 < fenn> i would probably add BHT, rosemary extract, and/or vitamin E
20:24 < fenn> mason jars seem like the easiest to acquire low oxygen permeability packaging solution. cans would be best but i'm not a mormon so that's not an option
20:25 < fenn> freezer won't save your fats from oxidation (learned that one the hard way)
20:26 < fenn> it probably slows it down but 2 years ground beef is not safe to eat
20:26 < jrayhawk> yeah. Slowing things down and also keep it from liquifying in the summer.
20:27 < jrayhawk> liquification is a disaster if some subset of it has already run out of reduction agents like polyphenols or toco*enols
20:28 < fenn> hmm crisco has citric acid to chelate trace metal ions that initiate fenton reactions
20:29 < fenn> i wonder how you add citric acid to a fat
20:31 < fenn> "residual polar molecules in the product create polar microenvironments. Citric acid preferentially associates with those polar sites. ... High shear and cooling while mixing trap the citric acid in a stable dispersion of tiny particles"
20:32 < fenn> sounds complicated
20:32 < fenn> that's like an ice cream maker, but you can't get condensation
20:39 < fenn> Citric Acid Esters of Mono- and Diglycerides of Fatty Acids (E472c)
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20:52 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> is that how MREs work? Get rid of oxygen?
21:00 < fenn> "Rancimat"
21:02 < fenn> seems like refined palm oil shortening (55-60C melting point) is the best you can do. it lasts 114 hr in the rancimat vs 0.02 for beef fat
21:02 < fenn> mutton fat made a good show at 0.41 hours
21:03 < fenn> the 55-60C version is 10x longer than the next lower grade
21:04 < fenn> it's primarily C16 and C18 saturated fat
21:05 < fenn> i'm not sure how you're supposed to eat something that melts at 55C, perhaps it needs to be mixed with shorter chain fats or unsaturated fats (though where are you gonna get those if your stockpile is bad by then)
21:08 < fenn> "Rancimat method is based on accelerating the oxidation process of the sample by raising its temperature and passing a continuous stream of air through it. The air flow transports volatile oxidation products from the sample vessel into a vessel containing distilled water. The oxidative stability instrument measures the conductivity of the water. A sudden, strong increase in conductivity marks the
21:08 < fenn> induction time."
21:12 < hprmbridge> nmz787> huh beef isn't good at 2 years frozen?
21:13 < fenn> it gave me a bad headache and malaise
21:13 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I have some super lean stuff that I bartered with a farmer like 2 years ago, maybe 3, I can't recall... been pretty slow to eat it as it was so lean
21:13 < hprmbridge> nmz787> hmm, I haven't experienced headaches from it
21:16 < fenn> not sure why the recommendation for hamburger is so much worse than whole chicken (or chicken in general for that matter) https://www.foodsafety.gov/food-safety-charts/cold-food-storage-charts
21:18 < fenn> they have different values for fatty fish vs lean fish
21:19 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I guess air got mixed in during grinding?
21:19 < fenn> i think it's not crazy to wrap in well crimped aluminum foil with an oxygen absorber packet, before freezing. maybe add a ziploc bag around that too
21:20 < hprmbridge> nmz787> these are just wrapped in butcher paper, I think wax or something coated
21:21 < hprmbridge> nmz787> hmm this sentence at the top "The guidelines for freezer storage are for quality only—frozen foods stored continuously at 0°F (-18°C) or below can be kept indefinitely."
21:30 < fenn> then why would fatty fish be different
21:33 < fenn> maybe USDA believes that if it doesn't kill you immediately it's not a safety issue
21:43 < hprmbridge> nmz787> seems reasonable
21:43 < hprmbridge> nmz787> (to expect from the gubment)
21:47 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> didn't prisoners in siberian work camps used to eat 10,000 year old frozen mammoth meat?
21:57 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> That might be an urban legend
22:13 < jrayhawk> wax paper would prevent sublimation
--- Log closed Wed Aug 27 00:00:22 2025