| --- Day changed Sun Apr 13 2008 | ||
| Aulere | interesting | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| Aulere | I'd like to see intuition - excuse me, incubation - studied in MRI | 00:05 |
| Aulere | The DLPFC was found to be a main component of working memory - perhaps even the executive controller of working memory; | 00:07 |
| Aulere | (by studying activation in the absense of stimulation) | 00:07 |
| Aulere | I wonder if a similar study exists for more long-term incubation. | 00:07 |
| kanzure | DLPFC? | 00:09 |
| Aulere | Sorry, Dorsolateral Prefrontal Cortex | 00:09 |
| kanzure | Hm. | 00:09 |
| Aulere | Rowe et. al 2000 | 00:21 |
| kanzure | I'll look into it. | 00:22 |
| Aulere | < just the main one. several others. | 00:24 |
| Aulere | eh, it's only tertiarily related ;-) | 00:24 |
| kanzure | I still need to poke fenn into reviewing the todo list. I've spent the majority of the day going through the list of tabs that I have open as opposed to getting any work done. On the other hand, I did learn about some neat open source pyrosequencing techniques. | 00:25 |
| Aulere | hehe | 00:26 |
| fenn | i got distracted by bio and asteroid mining | 00:38 |
| fenn | oh, and zinc-air fuel cells | 00:38 |
| fenn | i'm thinking about making an electric tractor, and lead acid batteries just dont appeal to me | 00:38 |
| fenn | The Apollo astronauts had some difficulty extracting subsurface samples. While the top was powdery and soft their attempts to drill into the surface resulted in the seizing of the drills which had to be abandoned in place. | 00:41 |
| fenn | obviously, the cheese melted onto the drills | 00:41 |
| kanzure | hah | 00:44 |
| kanzure | so it looks like we'd have to detonate on the moon if we wanted to mine | 00:44 |
| kanzure | and we'd have to constrain/focus the detonation blasts | 00:44 |
| kanzure | or use biomining techniques of course | 00:44 |
| fenn | oh, of course | 00:44 |
| kanzure | of course! | 00:44 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Moontank | 00:45 |
| fenn | i was reading about ceres today, theoretically it's up to 10% water by mass, about the size of Luna | 00:45 |
| kanzure | ceres = moon of mars? | 00:45 |
| kanzure | satellite of mars | 00:45 |
| fenn | a big asteroid | 00:45 |
| kanzure | oh, | 00:45 |
| fenn | ok, so, smaller than luna by a lot :) | 00:48 |
| fenn | ooo the nature of the bright spot is uncertain | 00:50 |
| kanzure | I need a list of all genes suspected to be related to the functioning of the brain. | 00:55 |
| fenn | most of them | 00:56 |
| fenn | maybe you should try to get a list of genes _not_ related to the functioning of the brain | 00:56 |
| kanzure | great | 00:56 |
| Aulere | heh | 00:56 |
| kanzure | I guess I want the Brain Atlas project for humans to be completed | 01:00 |
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| * Splicer is back | 04:32 | |
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| kanzure | Splicer: You alive? | 09:06 |
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| kanzure | Hi Splicer2. | 10:26 |
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| kanzure | I do not necessarily agree with your kink comment -- whether or not the neocortex pings is irrelevant in comparison to the established physical systems in existence; just because you don't look up does not mean the stars vanish. | 10:29 |
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| kanzure | http://openvirgle.net/ | 12:11 |
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| kanzure | http://www.starlarvae.org kind of kooky | 12:44 |
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| Splicer | sorry about the jogging | 13:26 |
| kanzure | So what's up? | 13:27 |
| Splicer | my connection | 13:27 |
| Splicer | about the stars still being there though noone is looking; | 13:28 |
| Splicer | i think my point was that the reason they are important in the frist place is a kink... cause the universe isn't really important | 13:28 |
| kanzure | Important to who? | 13:29 |
| fenn | what is the sound of one hand typing | 13:30 |
| Splicer | it's as important as britney spears | 13:30 |
| kanzure | fenn: a buddhist monk crying | 13:30 |
| Splicer | yeah... zen | 13:30 |
| Splicer | hehehe | 13:30 |
| kanzure | oh, I got it | 13:30 |
| kanzure | haha, finally :) | 13:30 |
| fenn | *fap fap fap* | 13:31 |
| kanzure | sure | 13:31 |
| * kanzure admits that he has tried one-hand typing, but really so that he can use two keyboards at once | 13:31 | |
| Splicer | kanzure is a sick puppy | 13:32 |
| kanzure | Splicer: Have you ever considered a wiki+gits combination? | 13:36 |
| kanzure | ikiwiki, maybe | 13:37 |
| fenn | git, not gits | 13:37 |
| kanzure | difference exists? | 13:38 |
| kanzure | #perl tells me - http://ikiwiki.info/ | 13:38 |
| kanzure | neat, ikiwiki uses git | 13:38 |
| fenn | nice | 13:39 |
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| kanzure | Awesome. I just found a new station for me to listen to while programming. http://www.scenemusic.eu:8002/live.mp3.m3u | 13:46 |
| Splicer2 | chipmusic? | 13:47 |
| Splicer2 | i take that back | 13:47 |
| kanzure | I don't know what to call it, it claims it's 'demoscene', but I haven't heard this before. | 13:47 |
| Splicer2 | is that word used any more: "The scene"? | 13:50 |
| fenn | a scene is geographically localized | 13:53 |
| kanzure | where's program 'lame' located? | 13:53 |
| Splicer2 | it used to be the name of a subculture | 13:53 |
| kanzure | I think it's supposed to be an mp3 encoder. | 13:53 |
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| fenn | apt-get install lame? | 13:55 |
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| fenn | mp3 is patented, so lame isnt installed by default on some systems | 13:55 |
| kanzure | aha, http://lame.sf.net/ | 13:56 |
| kanzure | apt-get install lame doesn't work | 13:56 |
| fenn | libmp3lame0? | 13:56 |
| fenn | i seem to have both | 13:57 |
| kanzure | hm, it seems to have changed to 'twolame' | 13:57 |
| fenn | no that's mpeg layer 2 i think | 13:58 |
| kanzure | woot, it worked | 13:59 |
| kanzure | nope, apparently not | 13:59 |
| Splicer | ..... | 13:59 |
| Splicer | back to howard stern | 14:00 |
| kanzure | Okay, I am set now. Got my dragonforce speedmetal and my eurodemoscene or whatever it's called, so I can get to work now. | 14:00 |
| fenn | so is ikiwiki just a wiki that keeps its db in a repository? or can you actually edit real files with it | 14:02 |
| kanzure | all pages are stored in git | 14:03 |
| kanzure | http://ikiwiki.info/features/ | 14:04 |
| kanzure | "Rather than implement its own system for storing page histories etc, ikiwiki uses a real Revision Control System. This isn't (just) because we're lazy, it's because a real RCS is a good thing to have, and there are advantages to using one that are not possible with a standard wiki." | 14:04 |
| kanzure | --> ikiwiki can be run from a post-commit hook to update your wiki immediately whenever you commit a change using the RCS. | 14:04 |
| fenn | yeah but what if you have some other random files in your repository, can ikiwiki show and/or edit them? | 14:04 |
| kanzure | ikiwiki also supports files of any other type, including plain text, images, etc. These are not converted to wiki pages, they are just copied unchanged by ikiwiki as it builds your wiki. So you can check in an image, program, or other special file and link to it from your wiki pages. | 14:05 |
| kanzure | "they are just copied unchanged by ikiwiki as it builds your wiki" | 14:05 |
| kanzure | so I'm guessing that means it'll put up images or binaries or whatever, and not do silly wiki formatting on them | 14:05 |
| kanzure | okay, next step is getting something like an apt frontend to an external git server install, yes? | 14:06 |
| fenn | uh, i dont know | 14:06 |
| kanzure | we don't want it all a web interface | 14:07 |
| kanzure | oh | 14:07 |
| kanzure | I guess that's more of a server daemon to work with git on the server-end | 14:07 |
| kanzure | so our clients connect to the daemons, which look at the directories under the control of the versioning system | 14:07 |
| fenn | yes, an apt-like interface is desirable, but i dont know if that's the next step | 14:07 |
| kanzure | what else? | 14:07 |
| fenn | git already has a protocol, and a http interface | 14:08 |
| kanzure | how so? | 14:08 |
| fenn | git://git.fennetic.net or whatever (not set up) | 14:08 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/gitdir/project-info-page or something? | 14:08 |
| kanzure | is it something like a file selection interface? | 14:08 |
| fenn | if you wanted to mirror the repo you'd do: git-clone git://git.fennetic.net/ | 14:08 |
| kanzure | because if I did an apt and apt-server-daemon on top of the versioning system, that's obviously redundant ... | 14:09 |
| fenn | well, its another layer of abstraction | 14:09 |
| kanzure | I suppose the question is how extendable the git interfacing layer is | 14:09 |
| fenn | if we decide git is horrible and evil we can keep the same client code and just change the server code | 14:10 |
| kanzure | okay (and as a bonus, ikiwiki treats the versioners as a blackbox, so it doesn't rely on git, and supports others like cvs/subversion/etc) | 14:10 |
| fenn | the git protocol is supposedly much faster than http but can have problems with bad firewalls | 14:13 |
| kanzure | interesting, it is hard to track down anybody that knows how APT actually works | 14:19 |
| kanzure | nobody in #debian can link me to the apt sources, and debian.org isn't being helpful either | 14:20 |
| kanzure | but I have tracked it down to http://www.us.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/ | 14:20 |
| fenn | the real #debian is on oftc, not freenode | 14:20 |
| kanzure | http://www.us.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/ap-tools.en.html debian package maintainer tools | 14:21 |
| kanzure | oh | 14:21 |
| fenn | i think they are more of a mailing list culture anyway | 14:21 |
| kanzure | I can deal with that. :) | 14:22 |
| fenn | it is quite strange that there's no home page for apt the software itself | 14:23 |
| kanzure | don't tens of thousands of people use it ? | 14:24 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Packaging_Tool | 14:26 |
| kanzure | hm, maybe the focus was on dpkg | 14:26 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dpkg | 14:27 |
| kanzure | `dpkg was originally created by Matt Welsh, Carl Streeter and Ian Murdock, first as a Perl program, and then later the main part was rewritten in C by Ian Jackson in 1993. ` | 14:27 |
| kanzure | aha, yes, they are a mailing list community - http://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/ | 14:28 |
| fenn | i guess between a mailing list, howto pages, source repository, and documentation, there isnt a whole lot else to do with a web page | 14:29 |
| kanzure | libapt-front --> http://libapt-front.alioth.debian.org/ | 14:29 |
| kanzure | what a terrible font on the page | 14:29 |
| kanzure | 'debtags, the next generation package search system' go figure | 14:30 |
| kanzure | http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/ | 14:30 |
| fenn | i was playing around with adept, which uses tags | 14:30 |
| kanzure | what's it like? | 14:30 |
| fenn | terrible interface, but i like the idea | 14:30 |
| kanzure | okay, so libapt-front and debtags seem to just be interfaces to the repositories; how does the repository-architecture work? | 14:32 |
| kanzure | this can't be too hard to mimic, could it? | 14:32 |
| kanzure | mostly users just grab new sources-lists | 14:32 |
| fenn | repository is just a big directory full of files, usually though they are sorted by distro version and architecture | 14:32 |
| kanzure | and then HTTP over to the servers, get a list of packages (lots of files of short descriptions), and then download the real files for the ones they want | 14:33 |
| kanzure | so they get some meta-data and then the user chooses what they want | 14:33 |
| kanzure | not much to that | 14:33 |
| fenn | the repository goes through all the packages and extracts the control files, these get glommed into whatever gets downloaded when you do an apt-get update | 14:33 |
| fenn | control = metadata | 14:33 |
| kanzure | so the difference here is only that we have a new way to specify package formats *and* all of these packages are in a versioning control + wiki directory (which means nothing for the interfacing and so on - so we can ignore this) | 14:34 |
| kanzure | I am not sure if apt-get is worth using then | 14:34 |
| kanzure | what could it possibly be but a fancy way of doing automated wget/curl calls? | 14:34 |
| fenn | it also manages the user's installation, removing unused packages and so on | 14:34 |
| kanzure | hm | 14:34 |
| kanzure | actually, I am wrong on another aspect too | 14:35 |
| kanzure | it's not just web calls when we consider things like debtags | 14:35 |
| fenn | its not? | 14:35 |
| fenn | what's "it" btw? | 14:35 |
| kanzure | well, I guess we can store tags in metadata | 14:35 |
| kanzure | apt-get interface | 14:35 |
| kanzure | okay, nevermind, it can be in the flatfile metadata | 14:35 |
| kanzure | I was originally considering an SQL backend somewhere | 14:35 |
| kanzure | so that the system can do backlinks between packages and so on, but this isn't really necessary | 14:35 |
| kanzure | that can be done by flatfile processing and ext3 to keep track of when a nasty crash didn't complete a revisioning of the files | 14:36 |
| kanzure | backlinks means editing the other packages, wouldn't it? | 14:36 |
| kanzure | that's what I've been thinking. | 14:36 |
| fenn | ugh you lost me | 14:36 |
| kanzure | backlinks are important, aren't they? | 14:37 |
| kanzure | and so I was wondering about the implementation | 14:37 |
| kanzure | there are a few ways to do this - they can be done in the file system, which isn't implemented in ext3, they can be done in a database (think: mediawiki backlinks), or they can be done in flatfile meta data for each of the packages | 14:37 |
| kanzure | 1) ext3 fs modifications - meh, I don't want to do that | 14:37 |
| fenn | i was thinking flat file metadata | 14:37 |
| kanzure | 2) database - well, we're already doing flatfiles in a cvs thing | 14:37 |
| fenn | stored in a git repository | 14:37 |
| kanzure | 3) flatfile meta data - then we need some server daemons to update everything | 14:37 |
| fenn | presented and possibly edited/annotated with a wiki | 14:38 |
| kanzure | oh, can git do backlink-management for us? | 14:38 |
| fenn | what is a backlink? | 14:38 |
| kanzure | take a look at Wikipedia | 14:38 |
| kanzure | you can click for a list of links to any article on the wiki | 14:38 |
| kanzure | so that you see what other articles reference the current article | 14:38 |
| fenn | search for tags basically | 14:38 |
| kanzure | no? | 14:39 |
| fenn | or do you mean fix dangling references when a file changes names? | 14:39 |
| kanzure | yep, that especially | 14:39 |
| kanzure | and also for dependency information | 14:39 |
| kanzure | so I agree with you that flatfile would be good, with server-daemons to process the flat files and manage that sort of meta data, but what about users that are searching with tags for packages? | 14:41 |
| kanzure | Downloading all of the meta-data might be impractical -- a wiki does this with categories/voluntary-tagging, so an interface for accessing this functionality would be nice | 14:41 |
| kanzure | i.e., browse to http://skdb.org/tagxyz to get a processed list of backlinks, can be just plaintext generated by the server | 14:41 |
| kanzure | that doesn't even have to be a daemon process, just a web service running under apache (a php script with some mod_rewrite turned on in the .htaccess or sites-enabled config file) | 14:42 |
| kanzure | the service or php script or whatever would then search for all packages tagged xyz (in that example) and spit out a list of the locations of the files or their immediate metadata | 14:43 |
| fenn | ok, so in general this means both client-side search and server-side search | 14:49 |
| fenn | it might be impractical for every client to mirror the git repo | 14:49 |
| fenn | but it might be practical to download all of the current metadata | 14:50 |
| fenn | debian has 26000 packages, and it seems to work ok to download the current metadata | 14:50 |
| fenn | its like 10MB compressed | 14:51 |
| fenn | we shouldnt be worrying about this stuff now though | 14:52 |
| kanzure | 10 MB isn't bad at all | 14:53 |
| fenn | originally i thought we could base the metadata format on debian's metadata format, but it turns out that our metadata is much more complex and will probably require code modules to parse completely | 14:53 |
| kanzure | yep, so that's where the idea of downloadable scripts comes into play - "to read this article you need to check out this interpreter" and it would link to the various packages associated with it - "download chemistry-package-viewer?" or something | 14:54 |
| kanzure | but allowing scripts to be edited on a wiki so easily? ehhh | 14:54 |
| kanzure | thus the verification/authorization process | 14:55 |
| kanzure | right? | 14:55 |
| fenn | well, more like annotation than editing | 14:55 |
| kanzure | who cares if you drop code in through the wiki instead of uploading via gits? | 14:55 |
| fenn | but yes we could sign files if that's required | 14:55 |
| kanzure | remember, in ikiwiki's case, git=wiki basically | 14:56 |
| fenn | gEDA has a symbol library that has a web interface showing the human-based test results | 14:57 |
| fenn | you can say 'it works' or 'it doesnt work' etc | 14:58 |
| kanzure | okay | 14:58 |
| kanzure | that's good too | 14:58 |
| fenn | and then it processes those and puts a green yellow or red dot next to the symbol | 14:58 |
| kanzure | that could be some experience-annotation data that can be summarized in the metadata, and stored in the package dir too as an extra file that somebody could trudge through if they wanted to hunt down something more specific (it would be nice if this was like bugzilla) | 14:59 |
| fenn | maybe we could simply restrict editing of executables to developers, and have a 'discussion' page too | 14:59 |
| fenn | people could paste diffs there | 14:59 |
| kanzure | that works | 14:59 |
| fenn | or maybe a patch library associated with each file somehow | 14:59 |
| kanzure | that would be easy since it's a version control system in the first place | 15:00 |
| kanzure | can git work in terms of diff files instead of just updating the file directly? | 15:00 |
| kanzure | well, updating the file directly saves time later | 15:00 |
| fenn | git works with the concept of 'change sets' | 15:00 |
| fenn | it's not as decentralized as darcs, you still have to have a repository to apply the changes to | 15:01 |
| fenn | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 (havent watched yet, will watch now) | 15:02 |
| kanzure | what was that? | 15:03 |
| kanzure | btw, I have a tendency to click any link except youtube, mainly because of opera+flash problems, so it has to be worth the trouble | 15:04 |
| kanzure | haha | 15:04 |
| fenn | linus google tech-talk on git | 15:04 |
| kanzure | excellent | 15:04 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Murdock | 15:11 |
| kanzure | huh, apparently that's the Ian in debIAN. And he did apt. Makes sense. But I didn't know he was Murdock. The kitten in my lap happens to be named Murdoch (full name is Murdoch t. Slayer) | 15:12 |
| fenn | torvalds isnt a very good speaker | 15:12 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package_manager might have a few hints | 15:12 |
| kanzure | I don't know why people can't be better speakers | 15:13 |
| kanzure | I find it easy ... just be intelligent and run the show. | 15:13 |
| fenn | ok finally he gets going at about 10:00 | 15:13 |
| Splicer | not everyone can have a reality distortion field | 15:18 |
| fenn | 'get away from commit access mentality' <- sounds good to me | 15:19 |
| kanzure | hm | 15:20 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portage_(software) | 15:20 |
| kanzure | looks like Gentoo has formalized their packaging system | 15:20 |
| kanzure | "PMS project - package manager specification" | 15:20 |
| kanzure | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/pms.xml | 15:21 |
| kanzure | http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=1 | 15:22 |
| kanzure | http://www.gentoo-portage.com/ | 15:23 |
| kanzure | yum sources - http://linux.duke.edu/yum/scm.ptml | 15:34 |
| fenn | yum sucks in my experience | 15:35 |
| kanzure | they're the only guys with readily accessible code :-/ | 15:38 |
| fenn | huh? compared to what? | 15:38 |
| kanzure | apt, portage, .. | 15:38 |
| fenn | here's the apt source, i cant seem to get the bzr to work http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/apt/apt_0.6.46.4-0.1.tar.gz | 15:42 |
| kanzure | I thought it was apt-frontlib or something | 15:44 |
| fenn | i dont know what that is | 15:45 |
| fenn | are you thinking we can re-use the source from some package manager? | 15:47 |
| kanzure | yes | 15:47 |
| kanzure | but if not - it doesn't look too hard to code on our own | 15:48 |
| kanzure | ah, what I meant - libapt-front http://libapt-front.alioth.debian.org/ | 15:54 |
| fenn | huh. the website is ikiwiki | 16:01 |
| fenn | http://web.mornfall.net/libept.html | 16:01 |
| fenn | the new version of libapt-front | 16:01 |
| kanzure | repository seems to be dead | 16:06 |
| fenn | that sucks | 16:09 |
| kanzure | fenn: the (real) #debian guys suggest http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/PythonEggs python-eggs | 16:18 |
| kanzure | hm | 16:23 |
| kanzure | they suggest a setup script for declaring dependencies, instead of a metadata file for dependency declaration | 16:23 |
| kanzure | (python eggs = they) | 16:23 |
| fenn | setup script goes through the sources and finds library calls? | 16:25 |
| kanzure | that's what I was thinking at first, but I think they have a setup script that the chicken (programmer) makes when laying the egg | 16:26 |
| fenn | egg looks like just another package format | 16:29 |
| fenn | like cpan or .deb | 16:29 |
| fenn | er, cpan is more like apt really | 16:29 |
| fenn | but it's tailored to a specific language, which seems like reinventing the wheel | 16:30 |
| kanzure | deb is to dpkg as cpan is to pm | 16:44 |
| kanzure | wait | 16:44 |
| kanzure | deb is to dpkg as pm is to cpan | 16:44 |
| kanzure | okay, so I'm going to have to concur with your earlier comment re: different packages for different projects being more specific. The general format of the package format should always reference what user software can be used with the file format, or specify what version or ID the file format is, so that the file-format-db can be properly queried | 16:49 |
| kanzure | so the [file-format-db] file format is the only thing we then really have to finalize, right? | 16:49 |
| kanzure | it'll be a list of packages that can work with the input/output of that file format, like I was mentioning a few days ago | 16:49 |
| kanzure | so two things to specify: (1) {file format db} entry format, (2) file format io parameter specs for a given program ... this is to be stored in param_io.xml in the same dir for each package, no matter whether it's software or a physical project (so data inputs or theoretical GNU units inputs) | 16:50 |
| fenn | i wish everyone just used git as their filesystem | 17:37 |
| fenn | or something compatible | 17:37 |
| kanzure | there has to be somebody already using a file format database where files are distributed and are meant to reference the database ... | 17:38 |
| fenn | there are versioning filesystems but none of them are production-stable | 17:38 |
| fenn | and there are neat things at xeroc parc that we civilians never hear about | 17:39 |
| kanzure | I have mega geek points of my own for having received emails from an @parc.com address ;) | 17:39 |
| fenn | kanzure++ | 17:40 |
| kanzure | yep | 17:40 |
| fenn | lolz | 17:40 |
| fenn | guess docushare.xerox.com is down | 17:41 |
| kanzure | #perl is suggesting MIME for my 'file format database' idea | 17:44 |
| kanzure | maybe the guy didn't understand | 17:45 |
| fenn | you should re-factor your idea and use different words | 17:45 |
| fenn | because i dont know what you said and i think i told you the idea originally :) | 17:45 |
| kanzure | file format database | 17:46 |
| kanzure | you go there and say "hey, what's ID 3951041041 about?" | 17:46 |
| kanzure | it says: "USE LYNX." | 17:46 |
| fenn | isnt that what mime does? | 17:47 |
| kanzure | no? | 17:47 |
| kanzure | mime just says content-type: blah/blahblah | 17:47 |
| fenn | except its not centralized | 17:47 |
| fenn | mime says, for content blah/blahblah use blah-view.exe | 17:47 |
| kanzure | mime doesn't offer you a suggestion for a database to query, nor a standardized id as far as I remember | 17:47 |
| kanzure | hm | 17:47 |
| kanzure | it says to use something? | 17:47 |
| fenn | yes | 17:47 |
| fenn | the trend as of late has been to ship web browsers with no default mime applications, so they always ask you what to do | 17:48 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME | 17:48 |
| kanzure | no, | 17:48 |
| kanzure | you just said that the MIME that the web server spits out would specify a suggested program | 17:48 |
| kanzure | and besides, I don't want just one suggested program | 17:48 |
| kanzure | I want to link to a hard reference in a database somewhere | 17:49 |
| fenn | not the webserver the web browser | 17:49 |
| kanzure | so that the program can work with the meta data over there | 17:49 |
| kanzure | but the MIME is the output of the web server | 17:49 |
| kanzure | the whole point is that you don't have the content | 17:49 |
| kanzure | heh' | 17:49 |
| fenn | and the web browser tells you what to do with that | 17:49 |
| kanzure | nor knowledge of what software can work with it | 17:49 |
| fenn | because it knows the mime type | 17:49 |
| fenn | mime is like an unambiguous filename extension | 17:50 |
| kanzure | then how's that not what we want? | 17:50 |
| fenn | you still have to associate the mime type with an application | 17:50 |
| kanzure | that's what the database was supposed to do | 17:51 |
| fenn | so, it's half of what we want | 17:51 |
| kanzure | but you claim that the browser would do that | 17:51 |
| kanzure | but the browser wouldn't know that necessarily | 17:51 |
| kanzure | so I guess the trick is to download mime types | 17:51 |
| kanzure | from teh db? | 17:51 |
| fenn | there shouldnt be too many mime types, can you just include them with the package manager? | 17:51 |
| kanzure | I don't know what that means | 17:52 |
| kanzure | if we were using APT for the package manager, include them in APT? | 17:52 |
| fenn | how do you store mime metadata about a file? in the package metadata, one for each file? | 17:52 |
| kanzure | hm | 17:52 |
| kanzure | there's a few options | 17:52 |
| kanzure | - one giant one for the entire metadata of the package | 17:53 |
| fenn | say there's an infinite number of file formats out there on the intarweb, but we only use 200 different file formats | 17:53 |
| kanzure | - one dot-mime file/header for each file in the package | 17:53 |
| fenn | ew | 17:53 |
| kanzure | yeah ... | 17:53 |
| kanzure | why isn't mime integrated into a file system | 17:54 |
| kanzure | unambiguous file extensions are ideal | 17:54 |
| fenn | well, what i'm saying is that the package cant possibly know about all the different programs out there, which might be newer than the package itself | 17:54 |
| kanzure | oh, sure | 17:54 |
| kanzure | I agree | 17:54 |
| kanzure | the point is that the user's interface to the package database | 17:54 |
| kanzure | should be able to query a file-format-database and check for software that can work with those formats | 17:54 |
| kanzure | anything specific to the package would be specified in the package file of course | 17:55 |
| fenn | so, when you do a metadata update, the package manager downloads a new list of mime <-> program associations | 17:55 |
| kanzure | who is 'you'? a package maintainer? an end-user? | 17:55 |
| fenn | end-user | 17:55 |
| kanzure | hm, perhaps - why not just do a metadata update for the current package? | 17:55 |
| kanzure | I guess you can download all mime<->program assocs | 17:56 |
| fenn | because it might be out of date | 17:56 |
| fenn | it might tell you to use mosaic for html files | 17:56 |
| kanzure | nono, the package has its metadata somewhere | 17:56 |
| kanzure | oh | 17:56 |
| fenn | then you need to download both mosaic and netscape | 17:56 |
| kanzure | you're just saying that instead of my "ask the db" model | 17:56 |
| kanzure | do an entire download of the mime-program assocs | 17:56 |
| kanzure | that's fine | 17:56 |
| kanzure | that's just minor details methinks | 17:56 |
| kanzure | the reason I want that database though is so that you can do the backlinks to other programs that work with the formats | 17:57 |
| kanzure | plus it's a good way to aggregate a list of mime-prog assocs that the end-user would be doing updates on too =) | 17:57 |
| fenn | true/false: end user should be able to determine what program is used to process a file | 17:58 |
| fenn | s/be able// | 17:58 |
| fenn | i forget why we need to do this stuff in the first place | 18:00 |
| kanzure | hm | 18:01 |
| kanzure | well, I thought it was because of the packages in skdb | 18:01 |
| kanzure | the package format for an element is by no means the same thing as for an automobile | 18:01 |
| kanzure | there's different stuff that you have to specify | 18:01 |
| kanzure | and then you have different programs that can deal with that file format | 18:02 |
| fenn | it would be nice if all the programs out there already specified which mime-types they could use | 18:03 |
| kanzure | right | 18:03 |
| fenn | i dont exactly want to re-package a million chemistry and cad programs | 18:04 |
| kanzure | but instead we have to do this metadata for them | 18:04 |
| fenn | and provide infrastructure to download them | 18:04 |
| kanzure | :( what else can we do ? | 18:04 |
| fenn | i'd rather just say 'do apt-get stuff' | 18:04 |
| kanzure | btw, I don't know about repackaging | 18:04 |
| kanzure | think of us as a ghost extra layer | 18:04 |
| kanzure | this way we just say "download this package, over here, at this site, at this version" | 18:07 |
| kanzure | and then we can add in more software on our own infrastructure if necessary | 18:07 |
| fenn | version control should really be visualized in 3d | 18:19 |
| kanzure | for the navigation, or for a real variabilized use of the three dimensional axis? | 18:19 |
| fenn | for navigating multiple files and seeing the changes/continuity | 18:20 |
| Splicer | maybe when the good cheap 3d goggles arrive | 18:20 |
| fenn | naw we already have opengl acceleration, i think it's good enough | 18:21 |
| Splicer | this thing you´re building... is it xml based? | 18:21 |
| fenn | yes, probably | 18:21 |
| fenn | re: mime metadata, it strikes me as similar to Makefiles | 18:23 |
| Splicer | curious to see how you will succeed with it... if it gets to be a defacto standard... it would be a cool piece of work | 18:23 |
| fenn | Splicer: honestly i'd rather have a CAD program | 18:23 |
| Splicer | taling about goggles now? | 18:23 |
| Splicer | talking | 18:23 |
| kanzure | yes, similar to makefiles in more ways than one ... make for compilation v. make for however-else-you-process-information | 18:24 |
| fenn | technology management isnt that useful when there's no tools to create the technology with | 18:24 |
| kanzure | 'make' should be called 'prepare' | 18:24 |
| Splicer | i didn´t know | 18:24 |
| kanzure | haha, some poor high school student just asked me for some links on study stuff for his AP exams | 18:25 |
| kanzure | so now he's drowning in 40,000 links that I just gave him | 18:25 |
| Splicer | i bet he didn´t see that one coming.... never seen anyone harvest links like you do | 18:26 |
| kanzure | Google? | 18:27 |
| Splicer | yeah.. well | 18:27 |
| Splicer | a living spider | 18:27 |
| kanzure | http://www.dichotomistic.com/mind_readings_spider%20minds.html | 18:28 |
| kanzure | that's a good one on spiders | 18:28 |
| Splicer | hahahaha | 18:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.nus.edu.sg/corporate/research/gallery/research82.htm spiders with selective attention | 18:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.nus.edu.sg/corporate/research/gallery/research82.htm spider web as a neural net | 18:28 |
| fenn | http://thecoffeefix.blogspot.com/2006/07/spider-webs-on-caffeine.html | 18:28 |
| kanzure | I'd like to do an fMRI study on a spider brain as it spins a web ... I have no idea how it's doing that. | 18:28 |
| kanzure | yes | 18:28 |
| kanzure | drugged spiders (LSD, not just caffeine): | 18:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n13/experiment/spider.htm | 18:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.cannabis.net/weblife.html | 18:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzdsFiBbFc | 18:29 |
| Splicer | does anyone remeber seeing the documantry where kary mullis talks about lsd? | 18:31 |
| kanzure | No? | 18:32 |
| Splicer | have you seen an interview with him ever? | 18:32 |
| kanzure | no? | 18:33 |
| Splicer | I don´t know but he looks like maybe ha spent too much time with acid | 18:34 |
| kanzure | http://fusionanomaly.net/ <-- too much acid | 18:35 |
| Splicer | there is an interview in a documentary where he talks about how he used to lie in bed on acid, watching imaginery molecules and playing with them... | 18:36 |
| Splicer | he says that it was because he used to do that he eventually invented pcr | 18:37 |
| Splicer | He's a strange guy | 18:37 |
| fenn | gee everythin cool happened in 1969 | 18:38 |
| Splicer | not sure i´d want to trade place with mullis | 18:39 |
| kanzure | This poor kid doesn't get it ... I have absolutely *no* links on economics | 18:40 |
| fenn | are there any other exponential growth processes like pcr that we have control over? | 18:41 |
| fenn | maybe some beam splitting optics setup could be construed to be an exponential growth process | 18:42 |
| Splicer | pcr is pretty elegant | 18:44 |
| kanzure | fenn: don't like those prospects of the 'ghost layer'? heh | 18:48 |
| fenn | sounds like a lot of work is all | 18:49 |
| fenn | non-productive work | 18:49 |
| kanzure | how is it nonproductive | 18:50 |
| kanzure | bruteforcing may be the only way to do solid state exponential growth processes | 18:50 |
| fenn | well its nonproductive because it really should be someone else's job | 18:52 |
| fenn | i mean, we arent any closer to having a technology distribution just because the software works | 18:53 |
| kanzure | right, it'll take some time to fill in all of the details | 18:53 |
| fenn | its like setting up a website with no content | 18:53 |
| fenn | sometimes the structure _is_ the content, but not when it's just how to deal with third party extensions | 18:54 |
| kanzure | obviously the structure would also include specific data though | 18:54 |
| kanzure | like in the package for an automobile, wouldn't you make it somewhat automobile specific? | 18:54 |
| kanzure | and then write up some software locally too? | 18:55 |
| kanzure | there's no reason that it has to be all third party software | 18:55 |
| kanzure | the point is that you're not going to rewrite software that is already out there | 18:55 |
| fenn | ah, now i see how you got on this track | 18:55 |
| kanzure | please explain | 18:55 |
| fenn | i was thinking you could specify the custom code explicitly, directly, like automobile::safety-rating | 18:56 |
| fenn | automobile would be a custom code module | 18:56 |
| fenn | each car design would reference the automobile code (or write their own specifications if there is no possibility for generalization) | 18:57 |
| fenn | i think there's always possibility for generalization, and it will help clarify what you're trying to do | 18:57 |
| kanzure | and instead? | 18:57 |
| Splicer | a stupid question; aren´t you describing xml? | 18:57 |
| fenn | not "CNC mill" but "3d subtractive shape-modification" | 18:57 |
| fenn | Splicer: xml is just a serialization format for structured data | 18:58 |
| kanzure | the problem with your custom code object library is that it's a giant OOP library of madness | 18:58 |
| Splicer | ok.. the recepie of xml then | 18:58 |
| Splicer | the dtd | 18:58 |
| kanzure | have you been reading what we've been talking about? | 18:58 |
| fenn | Splicer: you could have an xml file with something like <module name="automobile"><element name="safety-rating">6.8</el></mod> | 18:58 |
| kanzure | basically DTD is only for verification/parsing | 18:58 |
| kanzure | but not for MIME-data | 18:59 |
| fenn | but without code backing up those names they're just words | 18:59 |
| kanzure | yep | 18:59 |
| kanzure | so you have to have modules that can parse and interpret and work with that information | 18:59 |
| fenn | kanzure: could you expand on giant oop library of madness | 18:59 |
| Splicer | i think i understood, i was talking about the the ghost layer as I understood it | 19:00 |
| Splicer | seen this btw?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idTj5JXgoLs | 19:00 |
| kanzure | fenn: well, a giant OOP library of madness would have everything given a specific type and class; you could say truck inherits from car inherits from vehicle inherits from tech inherits from blah; this is too strict and demands way too much; after all, what about the other ways of classifying everything? | 19:00 |
| kanzure | the alternative is to just have packages that have software associated with them, more decentralized | 19:01 |
| kanzure | (except all of the software happens to be hosted by us locally or whatever - or in the case where we're just ghosting metadata we're pointing to other projects and their repositories) | 19:01 |
| fenn | Splicer: yeah and i hate how they use that big fucking gantry | 19:01 |
| Splicer | there are other versions | 19:02 |
| fenn | and they really should use arches | 19:03 |
| fenn | like, what keeps the window from collapsing as soon as it's made | 19:04 |
| Splicer | they have this little arm that puts a beam over top of the window as the printer gets there | 19:05 |
| fenn | kanzure: oop doesn't have to be strict and rigid, that's just how java and c++ do it | 19:05 |
| fenn | the more you use beams and prefab components the less useful the system becomes | 19:06 |
| fenn | well, the more you have to | 19:07 |
| fenn | anyway, they should use a robocrane | 19:07 |
| fenn | or this thing i invented: http://fennetic.net/sketches/hexegrity.png | 19:07 |
| fenn | springs in the wrong place, they should go radially, not tangential | 19:07 |
| kanzure | think of skdb as an aggregation layer and then autogenix as a way to query the aggregation layer to get stuff done | 19:08 |
| fenn | ok, good, interfaces, let's do more of those :) | 19:09 |
| kanzure | sarcasm? | 19:09 |
| fenn | no, serious | 19:09 |
| fenn | when's the last time you said 'this darn thing has too many interfaces' | 19:09 |
| Splicer | fenn: a piece of art? | 19:10 |
| fenn | splicer it's an xyz/rpw crane | 19:10 |
| kanzure | Splicer: I was thinking more along the lines of "a woman?" but then I realized that's a great thing | 19:10 |
| kanzure | oh | 19:10 |
| kanzure | you weren't answering his direct question | 19:10 |
| kanzure | heh | 19:10 |
| fenn | attach the concrete extruder to the blue spool shape, then vary the length of the black lines | 19:10 |
| fenn | it's hard to visualize if you have nothing to compare it to, so dont worry if you dont understand | 19:11 |
| Splicer | it torques around z axis right? | 19:11 |
| kanzure | torque = force * radius | 19:12 |
| kanzure | so I think you mean spins? | 19:12 |
| Splicer | rotates | 19:12 |
| Splicer | yeah | 19:12 |
| fenn | if you tighten the top 3 and loosen the bottom 3 it will rotate clockwise (looking down) | 19:12 |
| Splicer | but how is it a crane? | 19:13 |
| fenn | well, it can move in XYZ too | 19:13 |
| fenn | and because it's just wires attached at 3 points, it's easy to make arbitrarily large | 19:13 |
| fenn | the 3 orange things would be at the top of 3 towers | 19:14 |
| fenn | you could do that by erecting a large octahedron, or just a prism if the loads are going to be low | 19:14 |
| Splicer | yeah | 19:14 |
| fenn | here's something similar http://fennetic.net/machines/robocrane | 19:15 |
| Splicer | http://www.pbase.com/qleap/image/52265074 | 19:15 |
| fenn | yes, that's a tensegrity | 19:16 |
| fenn | its not as tall as it looks in the photo, the beams get shorter as you go up | 19:17 |
| Splicer | yeah, first time i heard the term was with that tower | 19:17 |
| fenn | could be interesting to make a 'robot arm' where you stack several of these and reel the wire in and out | 19:19 |
| fenn | i bet that's how nano utility-fog will turn out | 19:19 |
| fenn | instead of this cube nonsense | 19:19 |
| kanzure | hm? | 19:19 |
| fenn | just a mesh network of things with two connectors that can extend and retract | 19:20 |
| Splicer | cause of the powercords?;) | 19:20 |
| fenn | each connector could hook on to more than one other connector | 19:20 |
| kanzure | solid state fabrication is the key, I still want to investigate piezoelectric semiconductor nanocrytals for the piezo effect and field effect as a way to do self-replication; but that's just a hunch | 19:20 |
| fenn | i think you'd need to connect four at once to make a stable structure (tetrahedrons) | 19:20 |
| kanzure | esp. if the nanocrystals are mostly carbon | 19:20 |
| fenn | did you see the smay lab ceramic squirter link? | 19:21 |
| kanzure | yes, didn't do a full recurse through it though | 19:21 |
| kanzure | not yet | 19:21 |
| kanzure | it's in my queue | 19:21 |
| fenn | well, it's basically reprap/contour crafting but with ceramics, and he's done some PZT research, so maybe it will turn into something useful | 19:22 |
| kanzure | huh | 19:23 |
| fenn | PZT = a piezo ceramic | 19:23 |
| fenn | otherwise how do you get the piezo crystals to assume the shape you want? | 19:24 |
| kanzure | I was thinking of nanopiezos | 19:25 |
| kanzure | so that they're all of roughly the same size | 19:25 |
| kanzure | little tiny beads | 19:25 |
| fenn | making them smaller doesnt magically mean they will be the shape you want | 19:25 |
| fenn | you just get a pile of beads | 19:25 |
| fenn | maybe you could do acoustic holography to promote crystal growth in certain areas :P | 19:26 |
| kanzure | I have to be careful with this techno-music. It sort of satisfies my 'repetition obsession' because of the musical repetivity. So instead of doing something I just sit there blankly -- not good. hehe | 19:27 |
| fenn | hah. you could say that about any music (not just repetitve stuff) | 19:28 |
| Splicer | i have howard stern on... requires no processing power | 19:30 |
| fenn | just noise | 19:30 |
| fenn | it's hard to really think when there's noise on | 19:30 |
| Splicer | it's odd but voices are ok form me, i block them out better than music now | 19:31 |
| Splicer | Maiden sold 82000 tickets in 2.5hrs here last year | 19:33 |
| Splicer | pop of sweden is about 9 million... so close to a percent of the population went to see them | 19:35 |
| kanzure | Iron Maiden? | 19:46 |
| Splicer | yes | 19:46 |
| kanzure | X Japan just came back at the Tokyo Dome. Within a month of announcement, all 80,000 tickets were sold, they had to add another 45,000 (an entire day of performance); rather impressive. | 19:46 |
| kanzure | It was going at something like $120/ticket | 19:46 |
| Splicer | a month is longer than 2.5h | 19:46 |
| kanzure | hm | 19:50 |
| fenn | torque = force * radius / angle | 19:50 |
| fenn | the whole world's got it wrong | 19:50 |
| kanzure | really? | 19:50 |
| kanzure | can you cite a few links? | 19:50 |
| fenn | otherwise it's just force * distance = energy | 19:50 |
| kanzure | work = force * distance = energy | 19:51 |
| kanzure | this is the 'physics' they are teaching these days | 19:51 |
| kanzure | in schools, at least. | 19:51 |
| fenn | torque is obviously not energy, you have to have torque over an angle | 19:51 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque#Extended_units_in_relation_with_rotation_angles | 19:52 |
| fenn | it stems from the idiotic decision not to make angles a base unit | 19:53 |
| fenn | instead they are just 'nothing' | 19:53 |
| fenn | as if that were supposed to help somehow | 19:53 |
| Splicer | it looks normal to me | 19:55 |
| fenn | Splicer: Nm/rad looks normal to you? | 19:58 |
| Splicer | as compared to what? I'm used to the metric system | 19:59 |
| fenn | Nm is the normal way to specify torque (though i'm arguing that it's wrong) | 20:00 |
| Splicer | that looks like the way to define any energy | 20:02 |
| fenn | this is where the SI bureaucrat says 'no no monsieur, that is mN' | 20:03 |
| fenn | eh something like that | 20:03 |
| fenn | mN would be millinewton, m*N is work | 20:03 |
| Splicer | well.. it happens to be pretty much the rest of the world you know | 20:03 |
| fenn | huh? i'm just saying the SI is wrong | 20:04 |
| Splicer | it's the way it's defined, so it really can´t be wrong | 20:05 |
| fenn | no, it's inconsistent, therefore it's wrong | 20:06 |
| fenn | you cant have two symbols meaning the same thing | 20:07 |
| fenn | er, that's not what i meant | 20:07 |
| fenn | you cant have two different concepts that use the same symbol | 20:07 |
| fenn | in the same context | 20:07 |
| Splicer | N*m is always written Nm, mN is milli Newton | 20:08 |
| fenn | ok sure, that's basic | 20:08 |
| Splicer | it would be like writing kg gk some of the time | 20:08 |
| fenn | the point is that N * m = J = energy, but torque is not energy | 20:10 |
| kanzure | My flow was interrupted. What was I going to be doing? | 20:12 |
| fenn | learning how to write a DTD or XML schema? :) | 20:13 |
| fenn | Schema | 20:13 |
| kanzure | We've figured out that it's going to be best called an interface layer; ikiwiki+git+autogenix-frontend, MIME types for file information, | 20:13 |
| fenn | i'm not fully onboard with the MIME stuff | 20:13 |
| Splicer | mine too | 20:14 |
| fenn | just metadata about every file | 20:14 |
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| kanzure | okay | 20:15 |
| fenn | i think the original idea was that you have a simulator, and it makes some output, and you wanted a way to describe what that output was | 20:15 |
| kanzure | sure, same with input too | 20:15 |
| kanzure | "this simulator takes a CAD file as input" | 20:15 |
| kanzure | but just like we do this file format io specs for the software, we want it for the file formats too, right? | 20:16 |
| kanzure | so that we can backlink and trace and so on | 20:16 |
| fenn | maybe there are already some RDF frameworks for describing file contents that we could take advantage of | 20:16 |
| kanzure | how about this, we throw everything into a tar | 20:17 |
| kanzure | if you have a 3DS file, it goes into a tar | 20:17 |
| fenn | whee | 20:17 |
| kanzure | and then inside the tar is a meta file | 20:17 |
| kanzure | simple, no? | 20:17 |
| kanzure | and then we just enforce tar compliance | 20:17 |
| fenn | unfortunately it doesnt solve any problem | 20:17 |
| Splicer | fenn: Too tired to think about the torque thing, it doesn´t seem strange to me because they are different meters. | 20:18 |
| fenn | so now one meter's different from another meter eh? you sir, are a meterist | 20:18 |
| kanzure | it solves the problem, as long as we define the meta format -- all meta formats will be of the same version, they simply specify a hash or ID number for the other files in the same dir | 20:19 |
| kanzure | right? | 20:19 |
| * fenn drools | 20:19 | |
| Splicer | fenn: hehe, yeah | 20:19 |
| * Splicer goes to sleep | 20:19 | |
| Splicer | cu | 20:19 |
| kanzure | cya | 20:19 |
| -!- Splicer [n=p@h116n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [] | 20:19 | |
| fenn | you could just glom all the meta files together and forget about tar | 20:20 |
| fenn | then you can do stuff like: cadfiles/*.cad <cad-program> | 20:21 |
| kanzure | huh? but the idea is to package them in the same directory as the files that they describe | 20:21 |
| fenn | it doesnt matter where they are | 20:21 |
| kanzure | okay | 20:21 |
| kanzure | so these metafiles are package specific | 20:21 |
| kanzure | this is different than the metafiles that would be downloaded (those 10 MB) for package descriptions | 20:21 |
| fenn | it could be on the other side of the planet, as long as your hash key doesn't collide | 20:21 |
| kanzure | just to make sure we have that cleared up | 20:21 |
| kanzure | sure, makes sense | 20:22 |
| kanzure | where would we opt to put these in git? | 20:22 |
| fenn | but i dont like hash keys, they're the antithesis of readability | 20:22 |
| kanzure | same-level directory? | 20:22 |
| kanzure | just like make files are thrown into the same-level? | 20:22 |
| fenn | so this is how i ended up at Makefile | 20:22 |
| fenn | ever read "recursive make considered harmful"? | 20:23 |
| kanzure | no? | 20:23 |
| fenn | well, basically, the idea is that it's better to specify relationships in a single place, rather than spread out all over the place | 20:24 |
| fenn | but you also want to keep the relationships close to the objects they describe | 20:25 |
| kanzure | wait, so why is recursive make considered harmful? | 20:26 |
| kanzure | oh, I see | 20:26 |
| fenn | maybe i should read it again | 20:26 |
| kanzure | I am used to the multidir make systems :P | 20:26 |
| kanzure | and I suppose it is harmful, since it's that much harder to update | 20:26 |
| kanzure | and refactor .. | 20:26 |
| fenn | i think the problem is that the different make processes can't communicate | 20:26 |
| kanzure | makes sense. | 20:29 |
| fenn | the problem was that each make process builds its own dependency tree, so changes in one module can cause conflicts in other modules without you knowing about it. also, changes dont propagate automatically so things get out of date | 20:43 |
| fenn | sometimes i wonder if LSD wouldnt help loosen up the connections between peoples' neurons (mutation) and thus speed up the software bottleneck | 20:46 |
| fenn | you know, the generation of physicists must die before we get anything new, yada yada | 20:46 |
| kanzure | while I agree, I take a much more cautionary stance with molecules and my brain | 20:48 |
| kanzure | I haven't read too many studies trying to characterize LSD and its interactions | 20:49 |
| fenn | another something like slip-xml, with standards-body clout: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notation_3 | 20:49 |
| fenn | kanzure: yeah and dont you think that's quite an embarrassment to the neurosci community? | 20:51 |
| fenn | here we have this huge cultural phenomenon and nobody's studied it because it's taboo | 20:51 |
| kanzure | I always assumed it was because I just didn't find the studies yet | 20:52 |
| kanzure | surely they are out there | 20:52 |
| kanzure | I mean, we have 50% of the nation's high school students on weekly alcohol, and a significant percentage on acid too | 20:53 |
| fenn | the only people who ever talk about it are 'druggies' by which i mean subjective anecdotes, even though there are obviously some very objectively significant effects | 20:53 |
| kanzure | right | 20:53 |
| kanzure | they're coming from the other end | 20:53 |
| kanzure | as opposed to science -> down | 20:53 |
| fenn | what exactly are the effects of LSD? | 20:54 |
| kanzure | they're doing social interactions with druggie peers -> science | 20:54 |
| kanzure | hallucinations, I hear | 20:54 |
| kanzure | but I don't know what that means in terms of neurosci | 20:54 |
| fenn | that doesnt mean anything really | 20:54 |
| kanzure | I'm sure it's some kind of agonist or antagonist | 20:54 |
| fenn | money is a hallucination | 20:54 |
| fenn | the internet is a hallucination | 20:54 |
| kanzure | visual cortex interruptant? | 20:54 |
| fenn | maybe | 20:54 |
| fenn | i think those are just the easiest subjective experiences to communicate | 20:55 |
| fenn | visual experiences | 20:55 |
| fenn | you cant easily explain god perched on your head like a giant flaming bird | 20:55 |
| fenn | (from that movie about jesus) | 20:55 |
| kanzure | good point | 20:56 |
| kanzure | have you read my thinking.html page? | 20:57 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/thinking.html | 20:57 |
| kanzure | see the point about Poincare | 20:57 |
| kanzure | one of the first four large blockquotes | 20:57 |
| kanzure | he was describing his hypnagogic state that he gets into when doing mathematics or just before sleeping, | 20:57 |
| kanzure | and I have to admit I understand where he's coming from - the brain is very massive and can get easily confused, lots of various processing going on that is hard to identify all at once, | 20:57 |
| fenn | ideonomics = gas molecules | 20:58 |
| kanzure | heh | 20:58 |
| * fenn mumbles something unintelligible about quantum computing | 20:58 | |
| fenn | i'm sure we've all experienced heightened intellectual ability just before or after sleeping | 20:59 |
| fenn | then you have to jump up and run across the cold floor to write it down, or you'll forget | 20:59 |
| fenn | and that's the end of it, usually | 21:00 |
| fenn | maybe you'll get an aftershock | 21:00 |
| kanzure | it gets hard to capture thoughts down sometimes | 21:00 |
| kanzure | you know the erowid.org experience reports? I want those for thinking *in general* | 21:00 |
| kanzure | you don't need nootropics to have a reason to describe weird thinking effects and so on | 21:01 |
| fenn | i think of it as if your brain has an analog signal that you can't record, you have to put it into a digital form using symbols if you want to remember anything | 21:01 |
| fenn | yeah but nobody's into thinking, just us nerds | 21:01 |
| fenn | h++ | 21:01 |
| * fenn cries in his milk | 21:02 | |
| fenn | i've changed my stance on neural networks after watching geoff hinton's google talk | 21:03 |
| kanzure | how so? | 21:03 |
| fenn | they can categorize raw data | 21:03 |
| kanzure | what was your stance, and now what is your stance? | 21:03 |
| fenn | then you can do logical operations on that data! | 21:03 |
| fenn | i used to think it was bunk pseudoscience, that they were trying to explain how the brain works without any experimental verification | 21:04 |
| fenn | so anyway, it solves the symbol grounding problem, because then you have a connection between raw data (sensory input or WWW documents) and logical symbols | 21:05 |
| fenn | still there's the (minor?) problem of how to do it automatically, to build a 'brain' out of neural networks | 21:06 |
| fenn | and also motivation, goals, state | 21:06 |
| fenn | its basically a general modeling system, but the components are simple and regular, so its easier to deal with than more accurate but complex/irregular code elements | 21:09 |
| fenn | then you can run algorithms with the algorithms | 21:09 |
| fenn | (not just with the results of the algorithm) | 21:09 |
| fenn | blah, i'm babbling | 21:09 |
| kanzure | hm, it was bunk pseudoscience as far as I'm concerned, | 21:15 |
| kanzure | until recently I realized the entire field of computational neurosci | 21:15 |
| kanzure | I am truly impressed with it :) | 21:15 |
| kanzure | they aren't doing simple ANNs any more | 21:15 |
| kanzure | they're doing ion channel simulations, molecular dynamics, DNA/RNA physics, protein scenarios, signalling pathways, cognitive modeling, the brain atlas projects, gene maps, etc. etc. | 21:16 |
| kanzure | crap, I just realized I've been listening to the same song for the past hour | 21:18 |
| kanzure | fenn: I don't understand Notation3. Why not just flat-out XML? | 21:21 |
| fenn | because its hard to read | 21:33 |
| fenn | no, i mean ANN's | 21:34 |
| fenn | the whole ion channel simulations and stuff, what's the point | 21:34 |
| fenn | its a horrendously complicated and roundabout way of doing 'it' whatever 'it' is | 21:35 |
| fenn | sure a simulated brain would be cool, but it's sorta like a simulated clock escapement | 21:35 |
| fenn | just use the digital clock signal you already have | 21:36 |
| fenn | ANN's is like automated programming though | 21:36 |
| fenn | the algorithms you're allowed to use are really simple, or they would break (they're error tolerant) | 21:37 |
| fenn | you could throw in something like a fourier transform, or a mapreduce, somewhere in the ANN hierarchy | 21:38 |
| fenn | actually, a lot of the functions of mapreduce can be done with ANN's | 21:39 |
| fenn | the problem is they are hard to read.. it's not obvious what the network is doing because it doesnt have a nice name like generateHashKeys() | 21:41 |
| kanzure | in general I think it would be better if we had more supercomputers to play with to test out our NN ideas | 21:42 |
| fenn | we do have supercomputers, what are you talking about | 21:42 |
| kanzure | do I have them accessible to me | 21:42 |
| * fenn pokes at the 1.6GHz 1GB ram 500GB storage space | 21:42 | |
| fenn | giga! | 21:42 |
| fenn | how many orders of magnitude excess capacity do you need? | 21:43 |
| kanzure | I think Merkle did some calculations on that | 21:43 |
| kanzure | just so that I can see where you are coming from | 21:43 |
| kanzure | how much reading on ai have you done? | 21:43 |
| kanzure | and brain simulation technologies? | 21:43 |
| fenn | very little on brain simulation | 21:43 |
| kanzure | there are many arguments for many different scenarios | 21:43 |
| fenn | i like the 'nanobots take over for dead neurons' idea | 21:44 |
| kanzure | for example, Novamente and the Goertzel crowd are doing parallel 'emergent' stuff (?) | 21:44 |
| kanzure | while the Yudkowsky approach I don't really know much about, he's a bit of a hermit | 21:44 |
| fenn | that was on purpose, ostensibly | 21:44 |
| kanzure | then there are other approaches, such as the Markram simulations, which have produced functional working models of rat brains | 21:44 |
| fenn | "to prevent dangerous ideas from getting into the hands of the wrong people" | 21:44 |
| kanzure | ugh | 21:45 |
| fenn | even though he admits they are just as foolish as anyone | 21:45 |
| kanzure | I wish I could get funding for not wanting to talk about my ideas | 21:45 |
| fenn | its a big split in his fanclub | 21:45 |
| kanzure | that would be awesome | 21:45 |
| kanzure | yes, he does have a fanclub | 21:45 |
| kanzure | and it's rather fanatical at times | 21:45 |
| kanzure | it's somewhat impressive | 21:45 |
| kanzure | do you monitor sl4.org? | 21:45 |
| fenn | yes | 21:45 |
| kanzure | they have massive, intense debates that go nowehre | 21:45 |
| kanzure | *nowhere | 21:45 |
| kanzure | although the front page might have been written from a time when SL4 was more productive | 21:45 |
| fenn | because the stakes are high (or so they think) | 21:46 |
| fenn | and there isnt any other forum | 21:46 |
| kanzure | all of the old men on the extropian mailing list have compared me to Yudkowsky | 21:46 |
| kanzure | it's kind of weird | 21:46 |
| fenn | why? | 21:46 |
| kanzure | "smart young kid with lots of ideas" | 21:46 |
| kanzure | but then they always mention that Yudkowsky screwed up | 21:46 |
| kanzure | lemme go get a quote | 21:46 |
| fenn | hm, i dont really follow the connection | 21:46 |
| kanzure | huh? | 21:47 |
| fenn | there must be other smart young kids with lots of ideas | 21:47 |
| kanzure | "There was another prodigy we had on the list a number of years ago who | 21:47 |
| kanzure | didn't get this concept. He posted on Exi-chat in his teens, and a very | 21:47 |
| kanzure | insightful teenager he was. He is a great mind; nearly 30 now. But he has | 21:47 |
| kanzure | limited himself severely by not realizing the value of other people's ideas. | 21:47 |
| kanzure | He is convinced that all of a person's great ideas are finished by age 30, | 21:47 |
| kanzure | so he is facing the prodigy's crisis. " | 21:47 |
| kanzure | you'd think so, and I think I know all of them | 21:48 |
| kanzure | I hope there's more, but I'd bet they would be as vocal as I am. | 21:48 |
| fenn | ah, and here's where LSD comes in | 21:48 |
| kanzure | ? | 21:48 |
| fenn | as i was just explaining, i think LSD and friends loosen the connection between neurons, thus making your perception of reality less strong, allowing new paradigms to take hold | 21:48 |
| fenn | so you dont have to die in order to have a fresh perspective of the world | 21:49 |
| fenn | i think this will become a major issue once old age is defeated | 21:49 |
| fenn | we'll have all these fogeys around telling the kids that they're wrong all the time, and jangling the keys/funding | 21:50 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damien_Broderick wrote to me - "I'm impressed by your posts; given that you're still at highschool | 21:50 |
| kanzure | (if I understood that correctly), I'd guess you might be the smartest | 21:50 |
| kanzure | kid to show up on the list since Eliezer. (And apologies for "kid" if | 21:50 |
| kanzure | that's seen as offensive--I mean it only chronologically.) I'm | 21:50 |
| kanzure | curious--have you had a formal IQ test? If so, care to disclose the number?" | 21:50 |
| fenn | so nothing will get done | 21:50 |
| fenn | ugh IQ gimme a break | 21:50 |
| kanzure | hm, perhaps | 21:50 |
| kanzure | yeah I know | 21:50 |
| kanzure | I basically told him "I'll look into it" | 21:50 |
| kanzure | but I won't. | 21:50 |
| fenn | have you ever measured the size of your cock? if so, care to disclose the number? | 21:50 |
| kanzure | do I get to add the obligatory two inches or not ? | 21:51 |
| kanzure | heh | 21:51 |
| kanzure | if only IQ was measured that way | 21:51 |
| kanzure | I mean, that's really simple, isn't it? | 21:51 |
| kanzure | whereas IQ tests are much more weird | 21:51 |
| Aulere | lol | 21:51 |
| fenn | eh? its not the size baby, its how you use it | 21:52 |
| kanzure | since when is IQ size? | 21:52 |
| fenn | since they started measuring it as a number? | 21:52 |
| kanzure | yep | 21:52 |
| Aulere | there should be an IQ test for each broadman's area; then it would come close to being accurate. | 21:52 |
| fenn | seriously, why would you ask someone for an IQ test result, that's demeaning | 21:53 |
| kanzure | it is | 21:53 |
| Aulere | actually, I take that back. global interaction would have to be accounted for. | 21:53 |
| kanzure | Aulere, I don't think so. | 21:54 |
| fenn | intelligence is such a jumbled self-influencing mess of factors, i dont know how you can hope to get anything meaningful out of it | 21:54 |
| Aulere | gifts differing. | 21:55 |
| kanzure | gifts? | 21:55 |
| kanzure | I had to work hard to get my mind the way it is. Screw gifts. | 21:55 |
| fenn | gifts dont have anything to do with intelligence, it's basically a way of saying you are a statistical anomaly | 21:55 |
| Aulere | lol | 21:55 |
| Aulere | it's an expression, have you never heard of it? | 21:55 |
| fenn | intelligence is good at creating statistically unlikely things | 21:55 |
| fenn | Aulere: it's more than an expression, it's a meme we have to fight very hard against constantly | 21:56 |
| kanzure | there are many expressions | 21:56 |
| fenn | god gave you this, be thankful for it and dont question the status quo, you little shit | 21:56 |
| Aulere | ok. It's imprecise, which is my sin. | 21:56 |
| kanzure | sin? | 21:56 |
| * kanzure doesn't think Aulere gets it | 21:56 | |
| kanzure | :( | 21:56 |
| kanzure | But anyway. What were we talking about earlier? | 21:57 |
| Aulere | Ok, what do I not get? | 21:57 |
| Aulere | Explain it to me. | 21:57 |
| Aulere | First, | 21:57 |
| kanzure | No, let me type. :) | 21:57 |
| Aulere | I'm not saying that it's a gift. It was just an expression. | 21:57 |
| Aulere | ok | 21:57 |
| * fenn passes the speaker's staff to kanzure | 21:57 | |
| Aulere | (The expression was just meant to communicate that everyone's intelligence is different ) | 21:58 |
| kanzure | Just the whole meme-fighting thing-- first it's gift, which you mentioned was imprecise, sure, and then you go on about sinning? That's also status quo, there's lots of memes that we have to intensely fight. | 21:58 |
| kanzure | but then why is it useful to call it intelligence | 21:58 |
| kanzure | it's not :( | 21:58 |
| Aulere | ok, "sin" was for comic effect | 21:58 |
| kanzure | in fact, 'it' might not even exist (thus my tendency to drop the word 'intelligence' in my conversations) | 21:58 |
| fenn | sin can also be thought of as an inconsistent system | 21:58 |
| kanzure | nevermind then | 21:58 |
| kanzure | perhaps | 21:58 |
| kanzure | design flaw? | 21:58 |
| fenn | cognitive dissonance | 21:59 |
| kanzure | that works. | 21:59 |
| fenn | it can be a result of environment and meme-clash as anything | 21:59 |
| kanzure | fenn and I have troubles communicating as it is when trying to get the software specs down heh' | 21:59 |
| fenn | i mean, a logic engine that breaks as soon as there's conflicting information is a bad design | 21:59 |
| Aulere | Sooo to summarize: "gifts differing" just means varying ability levels... "sin" is just a comic instrument. | 22:00 |
| fenn | Aulere: you havent spoken much, we dont know what you believe in general | 22:00 |
| Aulere | I'll have to be careful about speaking in expressions around you. | 22:00 |
| kanzure | haha, don't feel attacked | 22:00 |
| kanzure | we're just digesting and processing | 22:00 |
| Aulere | ok | 22:01 |
| fenn | irc is limited but i still feel it's better for technical conversations than telephone or videophone | 22:01 |
| kanzure | it'd be even worse in those scenarios | 22:02 |
| fenn | things like sarcasm and implied statements dont translate well into irc | 22:03 |
| Aulere | especially with people who are highly technical to begin with. | 22:03 |
| fenn | unfortunately, implied statements is a major feature of english natural language data compression | 22:03 |
| kanzure | highly technical --> maybe 'highly direct' | 22:04 |
| Aulere | overly literal? | 22:04 |
| Aulere | :) | 22:04 |
| fenn | is there such a thing? :P | 22:04 |
| kanzure | if we're going to muck with the brain, then I'm going to go puncture the brain and put some stuff in there ;) | 22:04 |
| Aulere | lol | 22:04 |
| kanzure | it's *right there* | 22:05 |
| fenn | kanzure what about TMS | 22:05 |
| fenn | seems less.. invasive | 22:05 |
| Aulere | too many seizures after repeated use. | 22:05 |
| Aulere | And we know kanzure would like repeated use ;-) | 22:05 |
| Aulere | hehe | 22:05 |
| kanzure | fenn: I am all for TMS. Don't know what Aulere is talking about ... might have to go hunt down those articles. | 22:05 |
| fenn | i hear he's a repetitition adddict | 22:05 |
| kanzure | I'm becoming one. | 22:06 |
| Aulere | it would take *alot* of repititions | 22:06 |
| Aulere | er repetitions. | 22:06 |
| fenn | kanzure: do you have any insight on what induces behavior we've labeled 'autistic'? | 22:06 |
| Aulere | yes, he does. | 22:06 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/recursion.html | 22:07 |
| kanzure | Hm. | 22:07 |
| fenn | i mean, some people choose to follow that path and some dont, despite similar biological/genetic factors (perhaps different environmental and social factors) | 22:08 |
| kanzure | I don't know how to explain my general understanding of autism, but I see way too many correlations between autism, repetitions, programming, transhumanism, etc., to be a coincidence. It might just be my own interest-bias appearing. | 22:08 |
| kanzure | In particular, autists seem to be able to block out intrusive noise ... how's that *not* programming? | 22:08 |
| fenn | i can't do that | 22:08 |
| fenn | or, i dont know how to do that | 22:08 |
| kanzure | perhaps, but let me give you an example | 22:08 |
| kanzure | have you ever had the "anger reaction" when startled? | 22:09 |
| fenn | yes | 22:09 |
| fenn | particularly when i'm in the bathroom :) | 22:09 |
| kanzure | for example, when somebody walks into my room and I'm deep in coding, I suddenly, spontaneously throw off my headphones and yell out a random-ass "What!" | 22:09 |
| kanzure | it's not because I'm angry or not in control or anything, it's a 'reaction mechanism' or 'defense mechanism' | 22:09 |
| fenn | the kids used to drop pencils on the floor above my room, drove me nuts because it was so unpredictable | 22:10 |
| kanzure | preserving the brain state so that I can get stuff done | 22:10 |
| kanzure | yep | 22:10 |
| kanzure | I'd probably be okay with them doing it if they did it in a very specific pattern | 22:10 |
| fenn | meanwhile someone banging drums was no problem at all | 22:10 |
| kanzure | have you ever seen the leg bouncers? | 22:11 |
| kanzure | the hyperactive kids that do leg bouncing? | 22:11 |
| fenn | sewing machine foot? | 22:11 |
| kanzure | no | 22:11 |
| kanzure | wait, yes | 22:11 |
| fenn | i used to do that a lot | 22:11 |
| kanzure | I see that as very much like the repetitions that autistic kids do | 22:11 |
| kanzure | except that this is very specific and repetitive | 22:11 |
| fenn | i would watch a very cute girl in my social studies class wiggle.. mmm | 22:12 |
| kanzure | heh | 22:12 |
| kanzure | there's a girl in my social studies class too that does double legging, very ADD person, she does intense focusing on sodoku, but is otherwise trapped in Cosmo magazine or whatever | 22:12 |
| fenn | she had these sneakers with thick foam soles | 22:12 |
| fenn | somehow it amplified the wiggling resonance | 22:13 |
| fenn | i never do it anymore, now that i'm out of school | 22:13 |
| kanzure | cite reciprocality.org website re: the OCD/ADHD/programmer connections to dopamine tolerance and so on | 22:13 |
| fenn | sure sure | 22:14 |
| fenn | what specific environmental factors can we promote/advocate | 22:14 |
| fenn | is the question | 22:14 |
| kanzure | cite wrongplanet.net perhaps (or #wrongplanet, if you'd like to join me for observation) | 22:14 |
| fenn | eh, too cliquey | 22:14 |
| fenn | and drama | 22:14 |
| kanzure | right | 22:14 |
| kanzure | environmental factors, I am not really sure of | 22:15 |
| fenn | reminds me of self-conscious "punks" | 22:15 |
| fenn | i'm so punk i'm not! | 22:15 |
| kanzure | what worries me is the idea that I have a genetic proclivity to be the way I am, as opposed to all of this being acquired | 22:16 |
| kanzure | on the other hand, at times it seems like I can be more 'autistic' (even though I do not have autism) and other times most clearly not -- giving presentations, shooting the shit with friends, social engineering stuff | 22:17 |
| fenn | i have a genetic proclivity to being human :( | 22:17 |
| kanzure | well, what if my 'infinite motivator drive' that I wrestled and won through philosophical argumentation with myself was in fact just a byproduct of some pre-existing brain stuff going on? | 22:17 |
| kanzure | (okay, wasn't argumentation, but whatever) | 22:17 |
| Aulere | determinism vs. free will? | 22:18 |
| fenn | do you remember what caused you to tackle that? | 22:18 |
| fenn | a specific event in your life | 22:18 |
| kanzure | not being able to get anything done when programming | 22:18 |
| fenn | what were you trying to program? | 22:18 |
| kanzure | games, mostly | 22:18 |
| kanzure | http://allegro.cc/ was where I was hanging out | 22:18 |
| fenn | why were you writing games? | 22:18 |
| kanzure | I have no clue. | 22:18 |
| kanzure | I didn't play that many, in all honesty. I was captivated by the idea of creating big, giant adventure games. | 22:19 |
| fenn | was there a person or group of people you were trying to impress? | 22:19 |
| kanzure | there was a time that I was trying to impress a group of people, yes | 22:19 |
| kanzure | I have some chat logs left over from those days, sort of | 22:19 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/chats/chats/ (timestamps are wrong) | 22:20 |
| fenn | and now those people are totally irrelevant, but you're left with the brain imprint | 22:20 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/chats/chats/azh321_yepFULL.htm <-- must have been 2003? | 22:20 |
| kanzure | yeah, but these were sort of nasty individuals, a 4chan insult group would be a good way to word it | 22:20 |
| fenn | oh that's a harsh chat log | 22:21 |
| fenn | <insert surfer dude impression here> | 22:22 |
| kanzure | right, quite mean at the time | 22:22 |
| kanzure | I was making various commitments to projects that I couldn't complete at the time, if that's worth anything | 22:23 |
| kanzure | I remember being very angry with 'age-related' status-quos | 22:23 |
| kanzure | anyway, it's hard to say | 22:23 |
| fenn | its a biggie, and very unfair seeing how we keep people in prison so they won't learn anything | 22:24 |
| fenn | so then the prejudices are borne out by reality (although the reality is rigged) | 22:24 |
| kanzure | I was very, very mean. I wonder what I was thinking. | 22:25 |
| fenn | anyway, i have a different story, but just as non-straightforward | 22:25 |
| kanzure | yeah? | 22:25 |
| * fenn sips his tea | 22:26 | |
| fenn | i fell in love with a girl in high school, she never returned the feeling but never said no either | 22:26 |
| fenn | the result was three years of pain | 22:26 |
| kanzure | yep, know that story | 22:26 |
| kanzure | I recently ripped all of her images from a website though, so I'm done | 22:26 |
| kanzure | took me five years to get that link out of her | 22:27 |
| fenn | so i rebuilt my self as a strong personality, one who doesn't depend on anyone emotionally or technologically. actually i consider it a separate personality | 22:27 |
| fenn | so I was trying to build a giant exoskeleton, as a way of manifesting my emotional 'armor' | 22:27 |
| kanzure | literally? | 22:28 |
| fenn | this led me through engineering and eventually wiki-mongering and programming | 22:28 |
| kanzure | you got into such things late? | 22:28 |
| fenn | yes, literally. i had some nebulous explanations for why such a thing would be useful | 22:28 |
| fenn | i just knew i had to do it | 22:28 |
| kanzure | awesome | 22:28 |
| fenn | so, i have some airmuscles and a welder and metal shop and half-built tesla turbines | 22:29 |
| fenn | somehow space colonization got conflated into this, as a way to get away from all these stupid humans | 22:29 |
| fenn | i always had a fascination with big solid chunks of metal as a child though | 22:30 |
| fenn | mostly because everything you're around is lightweight plastic junk, i guess | 22:30 |
| fenn | i grew up with piles of legos | 22:31 |
| kanzure | same | 22:31 |
| fenn | technics and space (blacktron was my team) | 22:31 |
| kanzure | while I did use computers to some extent when I was younger, they were banned from http://austinwaldorf.org/ from age 6 to 10 when I was attending there, a significant chunk of my development obviously; when I got into the 'real world' (of public education) I started to watch television, got hooked on pokemon, got into the game hacking scene on the internet, and I can still trace my internet usage history back to that. | 22:32 |
| fenn | http://img.lugnet.com/display.cgi?set/new/upload/6876-1-1004641609.jpg | 22:33 |
| kanzure | other things were banned too - computers, television, plastic toys ("they're not natural!"), modern music, etc | 22:33 |
| Aulere | why were they banned? | 22:33 |
| kanzure | Aulere: the Steiner-Waldorf philosophy. | 22:33 |
| Aulere | ah. | 22:33 |
| kanzure | makes little sense | 22:34 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education | 22:34 |
| kanzure | Learning is interdisciplinary, integrates practical, artistic, and intellectual elements,[1] and is coordinated with "natural rhythms of everyday life".[2] The Waldorf approach emphasizes the role of the imagination in learning,[3][4][5] developing thinking that includes a creative as well as an analytic component.[6][7] Studies of the education describe | 22:34 |
| fenn | you really should read 'the diamond age' | 22:34 |
| kanzure | its overarching goal as providing young people the basis on which to develop into free, moral[8][9] and integrated individuals,[10][11][3] and to help every child fulfill his or her unique destiny | 22:34 |
| fenn | it'll only take 18 hours more or less | 22:35 |
| kanzure | it has never seemed appealing to me | 22:36 |
| kanzure | Neil Stephenson, right? | 22:36 |
| fenn | yeah, just read it, then you'll know | 22:36 |
| kanzure | I found this quote on the net that describes the experience of being at Waldorf: | 22:37 |
| kanzure | "At other times of the day, we knitted, crocheted, and played simple woodwind instruments en masse. Sometimes we merely gazed about while our teachers spoke. The teachers urged us to imaginatively identify with whatever we studied or saw—to feel the life-force coursing through a tree, | 22:37 |
| kanzure | or absorb an eagle’s noble spirit, or experience the meaning of a boulder. Information of all kinds was kept from us, not just the ideological sort. The teachers, whose priority was to quietly condition our souls and hearts to receive spiritual influences, | 22:37 |
| Aulere | wow | 22:37 |
| kanzure | those that possessed holy secrets, they had keys to cosmic truth. -- I developed esoteric yearnings—I was eager for revelation—I longed for things transcendent, for supernal beauty and grandeur. The expectation of these blessings grew in me for years and sustained me. | 22:37 |
| kanzure | But then, gradually, a reaction set in. It became increasingly pronounced as I progressed through high school. I was pained that the world, and I, fell so far short—always, it seemed, so far short. | 22:37 |
| kanzure | Dreams of the transcendent remained just that—vague, alluring dreams, perpetually out of reach. Longing for the unobtainable is a prescription for frustration, or desperation. I continued to long—perhaps more than ever—" | 22:37 |
| Aulere | omg. I would never have guessed. | 22:37 |
| Aulere | that you would have gone to such a school. | 22:38 |
| Aulere | How do you feel about your own experience in it? | 22:38 |
| fenn | my dear watson, it is self-evident. | 22:38 |
| kanzure | I was completely clueless. To me, it was fun. | 22:38 |
| Aulere | same? | 22:38 |
| Aulere | ah. | 22:38 |
| fenn | now kanzure is trying to fulfill his teachers' expectations by transcending into a jupiter-brain | 22:39 |
| Aulere | lol | 22:39 |
| Aulere | very interesting. | 22:39 |
| kanzure | that must have been some damn big expectation | 22:39 |
| kanzure | Sometime in 2004 I began to be addicted to http://gamma-ray.com/ as can still be evidenced by http://last.fm/user/kanzure -- it was only recently that I discovered that Gamma Ray, the scifi power metal band, also has some Steiner backgrounds. | 22:42 |
| Aulere | how long have you two (kanzure & fenn) known each other? | 22:48 |
| kanzure | three weeks? | 22:48 |
| Aulere | really? | 22:48 |
| kanzure | yes | 22:48 |
| Aulere | impressive natural communication between you two for so short a time. | 22:49 |
| fenn | he barged into #emc ranting about my website being down | 22:49 |
| Aulere | lol | 22:49 |
| fenn | a squirrel had chewed through my phone line | 22:49 |
| kanzure | pfft | 22:49 |
| fenn | causing erratic dsl | 22:49 |
| Aulere | hehe | 22:49 |
| kanzure | I saw him in a query for Dave Gingery, and was surprised that I had missed him | 22:49 |
| kanzure | however, it turns out that we've both been influenced by Superkuh on more than on occassion | 22:49 |
| Aulere | hehe | 22:49 |
| fenn | you know superkuh's bionic ducky? that's a good analogy for my self-reliant mental configuration | 22:50 |
| kanzure | bionic ducky? I know he has that symbol all over the place, but not its history | 22:51 |
| fenn | also he was into exoskeletons | 22:52 |
| fenn | "monopropellant actuators" | 22:52 |
| kanzure | on his front page he still has a homebrew piezoelectric particle accelerator design | 22:53 |
| fenn | now i cant remember the url | 22:54 |
| kanzure | a few weeks ago I saw him in #biology and asked him what he's been up to re: his TMS projects. He said he stays in bed all day, and promptly quit all of the channels. Yikes. | 22:54 |
| kanzure | hold on | 22:54 |
| fenn | transonomia or something | 22:54 |
| fenn | who was nervousenergy.net? | 22:54 |
| kanzure | he doesn't pay any more | 22:54 |
| kanzure | nervous energy was him | 22:54 |
| kanzure | http://69.180.166.50/ | 22:54 |
| fenn | dang duude get some dyndna :) | 22:55 |
| fenn | dyndns* | 22:56 |
| kanzure | I don't know how to encourage these behaviors in others, or how to maintain them in me, clearly even I go through fluctuations of bout of productivity and so on | 23:00 |
| kanzure | you can see this in the dating of my documents on my site | 23:00 |
| kanzure | but to what extent is this due to school? But on the other hand, shouldn't I still be able to preserve the same functionality even with school? | 23:00 |
| kanzure | it has this way of messing with the mind | 23:01 |
| fenn | i think school is targeted exactly the opposite direction, so no, you wouldnt be able to maintain th same performance under the influence of school | 23:03 |
| fenn | unless you managed to neutralize every method they use | 23:03 |
| fenn | (unlikely) | 23:03 |
| kanzure | I wish my camera was working; I'd show you the pages upon pages of notes that I jot down by hand during the day, | 23:04 |
| kanzure | I have boxes of these pages; it's my way of trying to work through more useful problems rather than succumbing to school | 23:04 |
| kanzure | but I know that everything I write down is lost since I'm never in the right mind to read the text when I get home since I'm tired/exhausted from trying to keep the mental firewalls up ;) | 23:05 |
| kanzure | maybe I'm just being lazy. | 23:05 |
| fenn | dont be so hard on yourself | 23:06 |
| fenn | well lookie here http://69.180.166.50/library/meh/tensegritytripod.jpg | 23:07 |
| kanzure | you'll also see a tranegrity diagram somewhere on my site | 23:08 |
| kanzure | b-fuller got around | 23:08 |
| kanzure | *tensegrity | 23:08 |
| fenn | a transegrity diagram would be a self-supported network of transsexuals? | 23:09 |
| kanzure | dunno | 23:09 |
| fenn | maybe that's just bleed-over from #wrongplanet | 23:09 |
| kanzure | my #wrongplanet-absorption theory: the more you sit in there and read and be 'emotionally connected' to those random-chatters, the more autistic you become | 23:10 |
| kanzure | yep | 23:10 |
| kanzure | note the frequency of messages | 23:11 |
| kanzure | this must be a tradeoff for density or something | 23:12 |
| Aulere | heh | 23:12 |
| kanzure | it's a giant feedback loop of stimulation expectation | 23:14 |
| fenn | its kinda painful | 23:14 |
| Aulere | interesting | 23:14 |
| kanzure | I can read it and keep up with the flow, but there's little to no content going on | 23:15 |
| kanzure | and within the time that a response is generated, I have better/more ideas, so it's obviously not content | 23:15 |
| fenn | notice the lack of standard no-content chatroom abbreviations | 23:17 |
| fenn | u r y w/e | 23:17 |
| kanzure | what about 'lol'? | 23:17 |
| fenn | especially lol | 23:17 |
| kanzure | I am seeing it, though | 23:17 |
| fenn | just tornado | 23:18 |
| kanzure | Anyway, I can't stand much of that. | 23:18 |
| Aulere | it's rather funny | 23:19 |
| kanzure | maybe it's because their interest is in the chat room itself | 23:20 |
| kanzure | rather than having some other intense interest to focus on | 23:20 |
| Aulere | true | 23:21 |
| kanzure | fenn: re: reciprocality, did I show you the 'attention as the primary scarcity' page? | 23:22 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/thinking.html | 23:22 |
| kanzure | http://www.laetusinpraesens.org/musings/hypercom.php attention as the primary scarcity | 23:22 |
| kanzure | http://online.sfsu.edu/~kbach/emotion.html emotion-attention connection and defense mechanisms | 23:23 |
| fenn | secondlife economy is based around attention | 23:23 |
| fenn | and novelty | 23:23 |
| fenn | hyper hyper hyper! | 23:24 |
| kanzure | check the ~kbach page, ignore laetusinpraesens.org unless you want to spend a while parsing that guy | 23:24 |
| kanzure | anyway, nothing too serious there | 23:25 |
| kanzure | there are many people who treat autism as a disorder, whereas I see it as being particularly useful | 23:26 |
| kanzure | but if the beginnings of those studies have to go under the heading of 'philosophical psychopathology', so be it | 23:26 |
| Aulere | how do you see autism as useful? | 23:27 |
| fenn | its the only way to get anything done :) | 23:27 |
| fenn | do you know any computer programmers aulere? | 23:27 |
| Aulere | yes | 23:28 |
| fenn | i'd assume so since you're in #ai | 23:28 |
| fenn | well, ever notice that they never get anything done if you bug them | 23:28 |
| fenn | according to kanzure, autistics have a natural ability to block out distractions | 23:28 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome#Restricted_and_repetitive_interests_and_behavior | 23:29 |
| kanzure | "Pursuit of specific and narrow areas of interest is one of the most striking features of AS.[1] Individuals with AS may collect volumes of detailed information on a relatively narrow topic such as dinosaurs or deep fat fryers, without necessarily having genuine understanding of the broader topic" | 23:29 |
| fenn | this lends itself to being constantly in a state of altered consciousness that is useful for problem solving, understanding complex relationships, etc | 23:29 |
| kanzure | However, on the other hand, it's also interesting for *polymathism*, not just restricted interests | 23:29 |
| fenn | is polymath a broad or narrow topic? | 23:29 |
| Aulere | hmm | 23:29 |
| kanzure | fenn: that's the right question | 23:30 |
| fenn | what is the shape of the mathiverse?! | 23:30 |
| kanzure | fenn: you can be a polymath by going to the right feeding holes for in-depth information, but the 'polymaths' that don't really do much recursion aren't really polymaths | 23:30 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz <-- no way this guy was not somewhere on the autism spectrum | 23:30 |
| fenn | he had many mathematical conversations on his honeymoon (not with his wife) | 23:31 |
| fenn | hmm! | 23:31 |
| Aulere | I've personally wondered about the brain waves associated with attention | 23:32 |
| kanzure | brain waves? | 23:32 |
| * fenn yawns | 23:32 | |
| Aulere | gamma, beta, theta combos | 23:32 |
| kanzure | that ranks close to scientology with me | 23:32 |
| Aulere | oh? | 23:33 |
| fenn | it's the only tool neurologists had for a long time, so it became a sort of universal explanation | 23:33 |
| kanzure | true, and it's definitely there, but as a useful way of explaining things? | 23:33 |
| Aulere | studies have shown music increases attention in ADHD via brain wave manipulation | 23:33 |
| kanzure | 'via', really? | 23:34 |
| Aulere | as I can recall, yes. | 23:34 |
| fenn | and trucks deliver packages via the highway | 23:34 |
| Aulere | I'll try to find the study | 23:34 |
| kanzure | what about their engines? | 23:34 |
| fenn | what about the packages? | 23:34 |
| fenn | (not saying the engine isnt important too) | 23:35 |
| fenn | and where are all those damn trucks going anyway? | 23:35 |
| Aulere | so you're saying that the frequency differences are effect and not cause, right? | 23:35 |
| fenn | i'm just saying you're paying attention to the wrong thing | 23:36 |
| kanzure | More importantly, we *know* that there are neurotransmitter circuits and other phenomena going on inside the brain that are worth investigating; the 'frequency theory' seemed useful for some stuff, sure, but how far can you go with that? | 23:36 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuropsychopharmacology | 23:37 |
| Aulere | I don't know. As I said, I've just personally wondered about it. | 23:37 |
| fenn | also its like trying to study a computer by watching/manipulating the voltage of the power supply | 23:37 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience | 23:37 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuropsychology | 23:38 |
| Aulere | lol enough with the links :) | 23:38 |
| kanzure | in fact, it looks like their neurosci articles have improved | 23:38 |
| kanzure | "The methodologies employed by neuroscientists have been enormously expanded, from biochemical and genetic analysis of dynamics of individual nerve cells and their molecular constituents to imaging representations of perceptual and motor tasks in the brain." | 23:38 |
| fenn | fMRI isnt exactly a 'representation' | 23:39 |
| kanzure | isn't image synonymous with representation? | 23:40 |
| fenn | no? is a photograph a representation? i'd say not | 23:45 |
| fenn | a drawing of an object is a representation | 23:45 |
| fenn | a sketch of an fmri session is a representation | 23:46 |
| kanzure | the equations to interpret visual data and then draw, versus the equations that determine fMRI interpretation? | 23:46 |
| kanzure | what difference does it make? they are both transformations on the data, right? | 23:46 |
| kanzure | except one has a solid state definition | 23:46 |
| kanzure | actually, cameras are not solid state | 23:47 |
| kanzure | but I think fMRI is. | 23:47 |
| fenn | because an fMRI is a transformation of the actual data, whereas a representation is a mathematical model of the data | 23:48 |
| fenn | backpropagation of the neural net | 23:48 |
| kanzure | oh. | 23:48 |
| fenn | you might have a scope trace with all the noise and artifacts, and superimposed over that Real Data is the equation modeling it | 23:49 |
| fenn | image, representation | 23:49 |
| kanzure | http://pyxml.sf.net/ - let's implement an XML format where we have a tag immediately after the xml version and doc-type spec that mentions what the file version is, this is our 'metadata format' for files and programs (and can be extended with further name tags to make it more detailed) | 23:51 |
| kanzure | so I'll read upon DTD and get to work on a mockup of a program that queries a database to ask for a program to process a file or something | 23:51 |
| kanzure | the database to query will be defined by a file in /etc/filedb/something.conf or the like. | 23:52 |
| kanzure | *read up o n | 23:52 |
| kanzure | *up on | 23:52 |
| Aulere | at the risk of continuing to sound stupid, what is the mechanism by which sound waves affect attention? | 23:54 |
| -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 23:54 | |
| Aulere | nm, I'll ask the neurosci channel. | 23:56 |
| fenn | entrainment | 23:56 |
| fenn | maybe that's a buzzword | 23:56 |
| Aulere | do you think kanzure quit because that was such a stupid question? | 23:57 |
| fenn | do you know what a phase locked loop is? | 23:57 |
| Aulere | no | 23:57 |
| fenn | kanzure quite because he has to wake up to go to prison, probably | 23:57 |
| fenn | (aka public school) | 23:57 |
| Aulere | ah | 23:57 |
| Aulere | I'm not normally so sensitive to others' perceptions, really I'm not ;) | 23:57 |
| Aulere | ok, I'll google it. | 23:58 |
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