| --- Day changed Mon Apr 14 2008 | ||
| Aulere | ok, I get phase locked loop | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Aulere | so the auditory wave is phase locked to the brain wave which then increases attention how? | 00:01 |
| fenn | uh, the other way around | 00:01 |
| fenn | the brain wave is locked onto the auditory signal | 00:01 |
| Aulere | ok | 00:01 |
| Aulere | right, sorry, that's what I meant. | 00:02 |
| fenn | i wouldnt say it increases attention, rather it shifts attention | 00:02 |
| Aulere | oh? | 00:02 |
| fenn | yeah, which causes more attention, bach or eminem | 00:02 |
| fenn | (trick question) | 00:03 |
| Aulere | ok, so how would it do that? how would brain wave locking increase oxygen/glucose consumption in attentional areas? | 00:03 |
| Aulere | in certain attentional areas and not others? | 00:04 |
| fenn | er.. i dunno | 00:05 |
| Aulere | ok no worries | 00:05 |
| fenn | once you get into cell differentiation i'm pretty clueless | 00:06 |
| Aulere | no problem. thanks for helping :) | 00:06 |
| Aulere | where are you from? | 00:07 |
| fenn | bloomington indiana | 00:09 |
| fenn | its like austin texas, i hear | 00:09 |
| Aulere | cool. I've been to Indiana | 00:09 |
| fenn | university town, in a sea of conservativism | 00:09 |
| Aulere | really? nah. Texas has huge bugs | 00:09 |
| Aulere | ah | 00:10 |
| Aulere | are you a student? | 00:10 |
| Aulere | (whereas I am in a sea of liberalism - Northampton, MA) | 00:11 |
| fenn | not sure if i'm a student or not. there's no money exchanging hands for my learning, if that's what you want to know | 00:12 |
| Aulere | ? | 00:13 |
| Aulere | mine niether actually. But I'm definitely a student. | 00:13 |
| fenn | i'm in search of an ethically consistent financial strategy | 00:13 |
| Aulere | *neither | 00:13 |
| Aulere | hehe | 00:13 |
| Aulere | sounds interesting | 00:13 |
| fenn | you mean, 'sounds like an impossible problem youve cooked up' | 00:14 |
| Aulere | heh | 00:14 |
| fenn | dont worry, its just NP complete | 00:14 |
| Aulere | NP? | 00:14 |
| fenn | nevermind | 00:15 |
| Aulere | nondeterministic polynomial time? | 00:16 |
| Aulere | by the by, I'm on #ai to learn; not because I know much about the more esoteric aspects, yet. | 00:17 |
| Aulere | *"esoteric" (comic effect again) | 00:17 |
| Aulere | so what do you study? or where do you work? | 00:17 |
| Aulere | computers. | 00:20 |
| fenn | ostensibly i'm following a technological development path that should lead to my very own space colony in twenty years or so, but i'm interested in open hardware as a movement in the meanwhile | 00:24 |
| Aulere | cool | 00:24 |
| Aulere | Well, time for bed for me. Night. | 00:25 |
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| kanzure | krebs: !help | 07:25 |
| kanzure | !help | 07:25 |
| krebs | help topics: 6 core modules: auth, basics, config, httputil, remote, userdata; 73 plugins: alias, autoop, autorejoin, azgame, babel, bans, bash, cal, chanserv, chucknorris, debug, deepthoughts, delicious, dice, dict, digg, dns, eightball, excuse, factoids, figlet, forecast, fortune, freshmeat, grouphug, hl2, host, imdb, insult, iplookup, karma, keywords, lart, lastfm, linkbot, markov, math, modes, nickserv, q, quiz, quote, reaction, realm, remind, | 07:25 |
| krebs | remotectl, ri, roshambo, rot, roulette, rss, salut, script, search, seen, shiritori, shortenurls, slashdot, spell, theyfightcrime, threat, time, topic, translator, tube, twitter, unicode, urban, url, usermodes, weather, wheeloffortune, wserver (help <topic> for more info) | 07:25 |
| kanzure | hosting DTDs looks like a viable option | 07:38 |
| kanzure | it's a good way to associate/aggregate metadata about a file format all at one place | 07:39 |
| kanzure | what type of bullshit is this? "Study calls free will into question" | 07:42 |
| kanzure | http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/13/2052206 | 07:42 |
| kanzure | for example - http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=521078&cid=23060336 | 07:43 |
| kanzure | that's an utter failure of reasoning | 07:43 |
| kanzure | http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=521078&cid=23060922 might have some sense | 07:43 |
| kanzure | http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=521078&cid=23059182 moving intellectual processing into automatic responses and triggering - re: reactions / defense mechanisms last night | 07:45 |
| kanzure | http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=521078&cid=23058772 "The idea that physical forces control us is silly unless you believe in dualism, we *are* those physical forces." | 07:48 |
| kanzure | For some reason there is this very large pressure from science fanboys to bash the concept of 'free will', but I like to take the Pascalean approach to it: if you have free will and you don't do everything you can, you screw up. If you do have free will and you do as much as possible, congrats. If you don't, then you've maximized the situation anyway. | 07:50 |
| kanzure | I suspect the confusion is because other people want to use it as a way to assess responsibility and blame and other bullshit | 07:51 |
| kanzure | *If you don't [have it], then you've maximized the situation anyway. | 07:51 |
| kanzure | weird, I was testing out mod_rewrite and found http://heybryan.org/test/ | 08:05 |
| kanzure | seems to be an XMLHttpRequest testbed | 08:06 |
| kanzure | wtf was this? http://heybryan.org/wiki | 08:17 |
| kanzure | mv wiki wiki_old | 08:18 |
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| faceface | gah! what did I miss? | 10:12 |
| faceface | I am compiling a list of protein structures with 'open access' articles. | 10:12 |
| faceface | I'll upload them here soon... http://PDBWiki.org | 10:13 |
| fenn | i havent seen anything worth reading on slashdot in a long time | 13:12 |
| fenn | not in the sense of news at least | 13:13 |
| * faceface listens to the radio only | 13:18 | |
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| fenn | i've been reading about XML Schema, and decided I hate it | 18:01 |
| kanzure | what about DTD? | 18:01 |
| fenn | instead, i think i'm going to use YAML, and validate the _data structure_ when it's alive in code | 18:01 |
| fenn | instead of validating a dead document | 18:01 |
| fenn | yaml just represents the data structure, there's no built-in validation, so it separates the complexity into more manageable chunks | 18:02 |
| fenn | and, xml is fucking impossible to read | 18:02 |
| kanzure | validate the runtime data struct? huh? | 18:02 |
| fenn | right | 18:03 |
| fenn | its like duck typing | 18:03 |
| kanzure | how does that work? if the data can't be serialized into the struct, then it's invalid? | 18:03 |
| kanzure | hm | 18:03 |
| fenn | well, i'm thinking it would be de-serialized (parsed) automatically, by yaml | 18:03 |
| fenn | so we'd write the individual package metadata in yaml, and the validation rules in (any language that can read yaml) | 18:04 |
| kanzure | would we also write the package file in yaml? | 18:04 |
| fenn | i'm only talking about the package file (so far) | 18:04 |
| fenn | say you had a chair module, that has specialized attributes/units of "comfiness" | 18:05 |
| fenn | the yaml would be something like comfiness: 2.0 | 18:05 |
| fenn | this gets parsed into an object with attribute comfiness, like mychair.comfiness | 18:06 |
| fenn | now, if there's no specialized code to use that attribute, nothing happens to it | 18:06 |
| fenn | or, if the code is expecting this attribute to exist, it will complain in the standard way "no attribute" | 18:06 |
| fenn | it took me a while to figure out that yaml only represents a (annotated) data structure | 18:07 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://techshop.ws/ | 19:04 |
| kanzure | I need to go read up on yaml, because I still don't understand that explanation | 19:58 |
| kanzure | would we use a verification module that loads up the struct into a runtime instance, or would we wait for validation to occur at the last possible mometn? | 19:58 |
| kanzure | *moment | 19:58 |
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| kanzure | Aha. | 20:21 |
| Aulere | :) | 20:21 |
| kanzure | yaml looks carefully written, fenn - http://yaml.org/spec/cvs/current.html | 20:27 |
| kanzure | fenn: would we just write classes in python and then call some yaml libraries to serialize the data directly? | 20:41 |
| kanzure | it looks like we don't have to do any yaml by hand, which might be interesting | 20:42 |
| fenn | yes that would be one way to do it, for example setting up templates | 20:46 |
| fenn | then mortals can go in and edit the yaml | 20:46 |
| fenn | then we read the yaml back in to process dependencies and functionalities | 20:47 |
| kanzure | not bad | 20:47 |
| kanzure | so in that case, what does 'dependencies' refer to? | 20:48 |
| kanzure | there are many types of dependencies that we've been throwing around obviously | 20:48 |
| fenn | dependencies is technological specifications, interfaces and signal types and measured units | 20:48 |
| kanzure | All dependencies throughout the entire project? | 20:49 |
| fenn | like, chair is made of wood | 20:49 |
| kanzure | that sounds like it might work, but I don't want to be too eager | 20:49 |
| kanzure | oh, so if yaml needs a dependency for one of the serialized structs, it can spit out a specific error | 20:49 |
| kanzure | and then the client can go grab 'em | 20:50 |
| kanzure | ideally the metadata would specify which package has that, yes? | 20:50 |
| fenn | yaml doesnt do anything but turn flat text files into live data structures | 20:50 |
| fenn | something has to come along and 'validate' those structures, by examining them | 20:51 |
| fenn | if it doesn't know what an element in the struct is, it says 'help!' and looks in the mime database for a specialized module | 20:51 |
| kanzure | mime database? or is it now a yaml database? | 20:52 |
| fenn | i dont know exactly what to call that type of program | 20:52 |
| fenn | yaml can store mime information right? | 20:52 |
| fenn | well, it doesnt matter | 20:52 |
| kanzure | ok | 20:52 |
| kanzure | oh, what if it was a yaml querying language | 20:52 |
| fenn | there's a field, common to all package files, that describes the modules needed to process the package dependencies | 20:52 |
| kanzure | would that be a good way to call it? | 20:52 |
| kanzure | probably a list of fields, but yes | 20:52 |
| fenn | what's a yaml querying language? | 20:53 |
| kanzure | sounds like what we just described -- have a database that we can query to get missing pieces of a puzzle, a partially 'self-correcting' (self-validating) code structure, and when it comes across ambiguities it asks for user help (and generates log files, error reports, etc.) | 20:54 |
| kanzure | if it doesn't find something, then its "help!" is basically a query, isn't it? | 20:54 |
| kanzure | "find me something to fix this problem" | 20:54 |
| fenn | so a specialized module would be 'chair' and it would get called when you run across the 'chair:' element while traversing the tree | 20:54 |
| kanzure | sure | 20:54 |
| kanzure | and the chair might require a wood package or something | 20:54 |
| kanzure | and the local user doesn't have wood downloaded | 20:54 |
| fenn | yes, 'help' is a query | 20:55 |
| kanzure | so the yaml says "help!" (as a query) and the local database finds it has metadata that points towards somewhere on the web to download the entire package contents (not just the package file / metadata for the package) | 20:55 |
| fenn | no, yaml isnt doing anything | 20:55 |
| kanzure | hm | 20:55 |
| fenn | lets give the process a name, maybe 'autospec' | 20:56 |
| fenn | autospec is concerned with understanding specifications | 20:56 |
| kanzure | is this runtime autospec, or pre-runtime? (maketime, call it) | 20:56 |
| kanzure | maketime is ambiguous, nevermind | 20:56 |
| fenn | it traverses the tree generated from dead yaml files, examining each element, making sure they are consistent and make sense | 20:56 |
| kanzure | how does it fill in the gaps? | 20:57 |
| kanzure | or identify a gap? | 20:57 |
| fenn | what gaps? | 20:57 |
| kanzure | if you have chair, and it requires wood, you don't have wood installed yet | 20:57 |
| kanzure | shouldn't it be able to identify that situation? | 20:57 |
| fenn | that's later on | 20:57 |
| fenn | that's the package manager's job | 20:58 |
| kanzure | this is just package-file / metadata-file validation? | 20:58 |
| kanzure | not within the context of other packages | 20:58 |
| kanzure | just local, very specific validation | 20:58 |
| fenn | right | 20:58 |
| fenn | just make sure we arent getting bad input, and that we have everything needed to understand the input | 20:58 |
| fenn | obviously you dont know if it's good or bad if you cant read it | 20:58 |
| fenn | by read i mean, have methods that correspond to each element in the specification | 20:59 |
| kanzure | why do we need autospec for the end-user? | 21:00 |
| kanzure | just validate it once, at the repo | 21:01 |
| fenn | to make sure they have software needed for processing the package file they are looking at (or recursively depended upon somehow) | 21:01 |
| fenn | then you require all users to have up to date software installations if they want to be able to read a package | 21:01 |
| kanzure | how would whether or not something passes yaml-syntax tell you if you have the software needed to work with that file format? | 21:01 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:01 |
| fenn | then you get versions like sid etch lenny, etc | 21:01 |
| fenn | if you have methods that understand the package dependencies, that's the software | 21:02 |
| kanzure | I don't think that answers my question | 21:02 |
| kanzure | yaml-synatx validation is not the same thing as checking your MIME-lookup-database-tables to see if you have software for working with such-and-such fileformat. | 21:03 |
| kanzure | (in this case we get to s/MIME/yaml/ since yaml doubles for MIME) | 21:03 |
| fenn | MAML :) | 21:03 |
| kanzure | so | 21:04 |
| kanzure | load up all of the file format data structs at the same time, and then yaml doesn't cry if it comes across something new? | 21:04 |
| kanzure | that could be a lot of overhead | 21:04 |
| fenn | if you dont have software that can do anything with the specification, why bother reading it at all? | 21:04 |
| kanzure | can we make yaml do a lookup in our local database? | 21:04 |
| kanzure | (the MIME db, or as you call it, MAML) | 21:04 |
| fenn | autospec would be the one crying | 21:05 |
| kanzure | autospec retries once yaml fails? (retries after loading up a supposed fix, that is) | 21:05 |
| fenn | no no, yaml just reads text files and spits out code objects | 21:05 |
| fenn | autospec catches those code objects and looks at them, if it doesnt understand what they are it queries the mime db | 21:06 |
| fenn | if the db has nothing, then you try to download new software or give up | 21:06 |
| kanzure | what does understanding consist of | 21:06 |
| fenn | mathematical models, essentially | 21:07 |
| kanzure | giving the name of a program that can work with that file format? | 21:07 |
| kanzure | *that data format | 21:07 |
| fenn | also, relations between specific logical symbols | 21:07 |
| kanzure | what does autospec call to the mime db besides 'lookup this' | 21:07 |
| kanzure | and what does mime db return? | 21:07 |
| fenn | autospec already knows the name of the program that can work with the file format (if it doesnt, it queries the db) | 21:07 |
| kanzure | how would autospec already know? have a lookup table of its own, filled with commonly needed programs? | 21:08 |
| kanzure | *program pointers / paths | 21:08 |
| fenn | the db returns an autospec plugin that can verify whether or not the two packages are compatible | 21:08 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:08 |
| fenn | so, say you have a tire, you want to know if it goes on a car | 21:09 |
| kanzure | the mime db *contents* and the autospec plugins should be the same thing, but mime db has the daemon that should be able to fetch other software and so on | 21:09 |
| kanzure | yes? | 21:09 |
| fenn | you look at the tire spec, you look at the car spec, call some specialized code in either car or tire modules, and it returns a 'yes' or 'no' | 21:09 |
| fenn | or, say you want to make the tire, you run some program on the rubber-molder to see if it can do it | 21:10 |
| kanzure | how would that look like on the shell | 21:11 |
| kanzure | # autospec rubberMolder my.tire.file ? | 21:11 |
| fenn | yep | 21:11 |
| fenn | i guess | 21:11 |
| kanzure | what about my message re: mime db *contents* being the same thing as the autospec plugins? | 21:11 |
| kanzure | they are basically the same thing | 21:12 |
| fenn | the car/tire thing is easier because it's a defined interface | 21:12 |
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| fenn | yes they are the same thing | 21:12 |
| fenn | we can make wrappers so autospec can use external programs | 21:13 |
| fenn | but probably most of it will be new code | 21:13 |
| fenn | you know, stuff like, does a class 4 bolt fit in a class 2 bolt hole | 21:13 |
| * kanzure is still digging http://heybryan.org/music/Scenemusic%20-%20live.mp3.m3u | 21:14 | |
| kanzure | now, I was originally thinking that mime db would have some daemons to manage its collection or something | 21:14 |
| kanzure | so that it could go out and make a request to a meta-repository somewhere to get new software for a specific file format that it doesn't know how to deal with | 21:15 |
| kanzure | this is why even though they are the same thing, there's still a difference | 21:15 |
| kanzure | or would autospec deal with fetching ? | 21:15 |
| kanzure | would we want it separated? | 21:15 |
| fenn | i'd rather autospec just look at files and load plugins | 21:15 |
| fenn | not fetch new software | 21:15 |
| kanzure | then the mime db can have a software interface | 21:16 |
| fenn | unix philosophy of small tools that do one thing well | 21:16 |
| kanzure | so that autospec doesn't know if it's getting plugins from the net or locally | 21:16 |
| fenn | yes | 21:16 |
| kanzure | how does it load plugins? yaml parses the file, and then gives us an object that we can work with; do we just do "object matching"? I don't know what that means, frankly | 21:17 |
| fenn | you could look at each of the object's attributes and see if you have methods for them | 21:18 |
| kanzure | http://openbabel.org/wiki/Main_Page Open Babel is a chemical toolbox designed to speak the many languages of chemical data. It's an open, collaborative project allowing anyone to search, convert, analyze, or store data from molecular modeling, chemistry, solid-state materials, biochemistry, or related areas. | 21:18 |
| kanzure | so then every new object must have new attributes? | 21:18 |
| kanzure | I think this is what duck typing is about? | 21:18 |
| fenn | um, i dont understand why you're asking that? | 21:18 |
| fenn | an object is like a box full of stuff | 21:18 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:19 |
| kanzure | and it has attribute variables | 21:19 |
| kanzure | you say match the attributes to the mime db | 21:19 |
| kanzure | to an entry in the db, I mean | 21:19 |
| kanzure | so if I have 5 attributes for car, and 5 attributes for window, is that a conflict? | 21:19 |
| fenn | no, because a car can have windows | 21:19 |
| fenn | uh. hm. | 21:20 |
| fenn | i dont want this to turn into cyc | 21:20 |
| kanzure | we'd have to do unique names for attributes | 21:20 |
| fenn | namespaces | 21:20 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:20 |
| kanzure | or it's all in the same namespace, and the code has weird hash ids for the variables, but with a human readable overlay map | 21:20 |
| fenn | it boils down to the same thing | 21:21 |
| kanzure | so that when you submit code to the database, the variable names are replaced with IDs, but a 'human key/legend' is given down | 21:21 |
| kanzure | *is given | 21:21 |
| kanzure | which way would be simpler? | 21:21 |
| fenn | c++ does that with 'mangling' and i think its silly | 21:21 |
| kanzure | how would we implement namespaces? | 21:21 |
| fenn | by module | 21:21 |
| fenn | car, window | 21:21 |
| fenn | you say object.car.wheel | 21:21 |
| fenn | so the first layer autospec looks at is the top layer (car) | 21:22 |
| kanzure | okay, but this isn't entirely centralized | 21:22 |
| fenn | it loads the car module, then car.wheel makes sense too | 21:22 |
| kanzure | what if I have a package obj.car.wheel and then from another one I have obj.airplane.wheel or something | 21:22 |
| kanzure | and there's overlap, but there's not mean to be overlap between car wheel and airplane wheel | 21:22 |
| kanzure | thus a namespace violation | 21:22 |
| kanzure | conflict. | 21:22 |
| fenn | in the car module, you can inherit from the 'wheel' class which is defined elsewhere (and so does the airplane module) | 21:22 |
| fenn | because a car 'has' wheels | 21:23 |
| kanzure | okay | 21:23 |
| fenn | the car class has an attribute 'wheel' that isnt necessarily defined in the car class code | 21:23 |
| fenn | i dont know the gory details, but it involves function pointers | 21:24 |
| kanzure | I thought autospec would resolve those glory details | 21:24 |
| fenn | no, that's just an object oriented language | 21:24 |
| kanzure | python does it natively, yes? | 21:24 |
| fenn | yes | 21:24 |
| fenn | so, the car module would have a software dependency on the wheel module | 21:25 |
| fenn | resolved by some apt-like system | 21:25 |
| kanzure | but the car would also have a physical dependency on it, in the final project/ implementation | 21:25 |
| kanzure | and this has to be specified too somehow | 21:26 |
| fenn | yeah, and that's the more squishy problem | 21:26 |
| fenn | does a car have 4 wheels? what about one of those three-wheeler thingies | 21:26 |
| fenn | what about a 6 wheel dumptruck | 21:26 |
| fenn | is that a car? | 21:26 |
| kanzure | right, so there would be a variety of classes and objects | 21:26 |
| fenn | i'd rather make the definitions broad, since you're just calling it a car to access the car class's code | 21:27 |
| kanzure | well, you could at the very least create a table or matrix to suggest somebody some axis of definitions, i.e. one variable of adjustment could be the number of wheels | 21:27 |
| kanzure | yep | 21:27 |
| kanzure | and also the (broad) manufacturing code | 21:27 |
| fenn | i mean, it could be a toaster with a v6 engine, not necessarily a car, but you want to use the specifications provided by the car class | 21:27 |
| fenn | maybe automobile is more appropriate | 21:27 |
| fenn | generalize until it doesnt mean anything, eh wot | 21:28 |
| kanzure | well, the idea is that specialized people will come in and add projects | 21:28 |
| kanzure | and then some others can go link to it back and forth on other projects so that more people can be aware of it | 21:28 |
| kanzure | that's all editable, we don't do top-down in general | 21:28 |
| kanzure | it's definitely going to be bottom-up contributions, but that's okay, some of us will work top-down, trying to connect the dots | 21:28 |
| fenn | you dont want a million differnt classes that do the same thing | 21:29 |
| kanzure | thus refactoring, redirection, etc. | 21:29 |
| fenn | someone's gotta come through and refactor, right | 21:29 |
| kanzure | we have to do this *anyway* without skdb | 21:30 |
| fenn | we have to refactor what? | 21:30 |
| kanzure | (I've taken to calling this 'metarepo' actually, for obvious reasons - it's a ghost layer for aggregation of packages with definite specifications, and the metarepo itself can be copied by anybody -- preferably with a solid connection back to our instance) | 21:30 |
| kanzure | hm? | 21:30 |
| kanzure | refactor manufacturing projects | 21:30 |
| kanzure | think about how you do an electrical circuit at the moment | 21:30 |
| kanzure | you refactor and reuse various schematics from before | 21:31 |
| kanzure | no? | 21:31 |
| fenn | sure | 21:31 |
| kanzure | well, this sort of refactoring is just much more useful IMO | 21:31 |
| fenn | sometimes i'll even get lucky and it will do exactly what i want straight from te plans | 21:31 |
| kanzure | has that actually happened? | 21:31 |
| kanzure | it's been a while since I've done electronics | 21:31 |
| fenn | yes, a laminator temperature controller | 21:31 |
| fenn | i didnt actually build it, but i was going to | 21:32 |
| fenn | http://thomaspfeifer.net/laminator_temperatur_regelung.htm | 21:35 |
| fenn | it's very hard to search for electronic circuits | 21:36 |
| kanzure | it's ok, skdb will help fix that - it's a giant aggregation model - one of the aspects of file formats for packages that I will insist on is a module for specifying social network data, like email addresses, mailing lists, specific websites, phone numbers, etc. | 21:37 |
| fenn | upstream contact | 21:37 |
| kanzure | is that a ref to something else, or a terming? | 21:38 |
| fenn | its the debian dterminology | 21:38 |
| kanzure | I've never seen it before. | 21:38 |
| fenn | see, the debian team maintains a copy that closely follows the original package, but has modifications that make everything 'just work' | 21:39 |
| kanzure | huh, that's interesting, so they're really just coding for themselves | 21:39 |
| kanzure | and then release snippits and tidbits in formal releases | 21:39 |
| fenn | usually the person who wrote the original package doesnt want to go through all the trouble of learning how to make a debian package and comply with debian policy like where files go and so on | 21:40 |
| fenn | its more like, they maintain a patch set | 21:40 |
| fenn | sometimes the original author is the debian maintainer | 21:40 |
| fenn | in which case he would either maintain a patch set for debian, or put some code that does those actions during compilation | 21:41 |
| fenn | so, you might have a car designer, but he just knows how to draw pretty pictures | 21:41 |
| fenn | and another guy who knows nothing about car design, but he can assimilate 500 tech projects in a week | 21:42 |
| fenn | well, nothing is stretching it | 21:42 |
| fenn | but there's no requirement for genius | 21:42 |
| kanzure | yes, from what I've seen there are debian evangelicalists (which is not bad at all) that go around trying to help people putting their software into packages | 21:43 |
| fenn | many people dont understand that their projects will be used by others with widely varying tools and situations | 21:44 |
| fenn | so they just write the specifics of what they did | 21:44 |
| fenn | well, that doesnt help 90% of the people out there, the traditional way to deal with it is to re-factor everything by hand | 21:44 |
| fenn | (again, for your specific situation) | 21:44 |
| fenn | so if you dont have a welder, you'd redesign all the parts to be bolted together | 21:45 |
| fenn | or if you cant cast aluminum, you'd make some CNC code to cut it out of a block | 21:45 |
| fenn | or if you dont like PIC chips, you'd re-write the code for AVR | 21:45 |
| fenn | these all change the structure, but the functionality is generally equivalent | 21:46 |
| fenn | i'd like to get the original specification in a form that can be 'compiled' into either of the generally equivalent ways of doing it | 21:46 |
| fenn | maybe it's too much to ask for PIC/AVR | 21:47 |
| kanzure | atm the equivalency is only 'socially known' rather than formally specified such that a file format converter could do the task | 21:47 |
| kanzure | but we're getting there, probably | 21:47 |
| fenn | well, nothing is exactly equivalent | 21:47 |
| kanzure | oh, as for PIC and AVR, sure | 21:47 |
| fenn | i mean, welded joints are usually stronger and more lightweight than bolted joints | 21:48 |
| fenn | but they induce distortion | 21:48 |
| fenn | so you have to say exactly why you're using a welded joint | 21:48 |
| fenn | usually it's just 'because i had a welder and know how to use it' | 21:48 |
| fenn | and then you get into role-playing game stuff, modeling people and their skills | 21:49 |
| fenn | how much they're willing to learn/work vs spend money vs product quality | 21:50 |
| kanzure | guess I need to do some py-yaml | 21:56 |
| fenn | the other thing i figured out today was that 'eval()' is generally evil | 21:57 |
| kanzure | deceptive functionality? | 21:57 |
| kanzure | I remember making excessive use of php's eval() function back in the day | 21:58 |
| fenn | easy to break, allows security holes that can hose your entire system | 21:58 |
| kanzure | I was storing php in mysql | 21:58 |
| fenn | so we need to sign packages and verify them before being used automatically | 21:58 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:59 |
| kanzure | "YAML represents type information of native data structures with a simple identifier, called a tag. Global tags are URIs and hence globally unique across all applications. The “tag:” URI scheme is recommended for all global YAML tags. In contrast, local tags are specific to a single application. Local tags start with “!”, are not URIs and are not expected to be globally unique. YAML provides a “TAG” directive to make t | 21:59 |
| kanzure | URIs. interesting. | 21:59 |
| kanzure | makes things easy I guess | 21:59 |
| kanzure | it's like the XML's use of DTD | 21:59 |
| fenn | org.yaml.int or something? | 21:59 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:59 |
| kanzure | can we use that to our advantage? | 21:59 |
| fenn | yeah | 21:59 |
| kanzure | giving a hint to the mime db? | 21:59 |
| kanzure | or do we want that to be the direct information for mime db? | 21:59 |
| kanzure | or what? | 22:00 |
| fenn | well, it provides plenty of namespaces | 22:00 |
| fenn | org.skdb.autospec could actually be downloaded from git.autogenix.org? | 22:01 |
| fenn | i'd rather have a layer of redirection available | 22:01 |
| fenn | the existing YAML libraries come with adequate, but not great, conversion tools for moving between XML and YAML | 22:04 |
| fenn | so the choice isnt set in stone | 22:04 |
| kanzure | sure, we can be that layer | 22:06 |
| kanzure | doesn't add but a handful of ms to processing time anyway | 22:06 |
| fenn | the layer is your db | 22:06 |
| kanzure | right, but autospec doesn't know if mime db is getting the plugins locally or from the net | 22:06 |
| kanzure | so that's the 'layer of redirection' | 22:06 |
| kanzure | yes? | 22:07 |
| fenn | autospec could care less who downloaded the plugins | 22:07 |
| fenn | the redirection is between yaml object type and download url | 22:08 |
| fenn | usually the type and download url would be similar | 22:08 |
| fenn | like org.autogenix.automobile | 22:08 |
| fenn | would point to autogenix.org/v1.23/automobile.deb | 22:09 |
| kanzure | that has a nice, direct mapping to directory structure for the database | 22:09 |
| fenn | or python egg or watever | 22:09 |
| fenn | sure, and then it would install in /usr/share/autogenix/autogenix/automobile | 22:09 |
| fenn | or /usr/share/skdb/autogenix/automobile | 22:10 |
| fenn | depending on exactly what name goes with what code | 22:10 |
| kanzure | autogenix is the client, I think it's just /usr/share/skdb/automobile/ or ~/.skdb/ (whatever) / packages/automobile | 22:10 |
| kanzure | dunno | 22:10 |
| kanzure | hm | 22:10 |
| fenn | then you have a namespace conflict in skdb/ | 22:11 |
| kanzure | so we want the code, metadata, software, various files, all separated into different directories? | 22:11 |
| kanzure | or do we want one package to have its own dir? | 22:11 |
| kanzure | and that's final? | 22:11 |
| fenn | um, i dunno | 22:11 |
| fenn | less directories is better usually | 22:11 |
| kanzure | but might mess up the $PATH for the user's os | 22:11 |
| fenn | eh? | 22:11 |
| kanzure | *user's env-variables | 22:11 |
| kanzure | I thought it was good practice to respect the user's path variable | 22:12 |
| fenn | env variables are inherited from te parent shell | 22:12 |
| kanzure | and not go off adding random new files into your own dirs, just follow the /usr/lib/share/ specs for that distro | 22:12 |
| kanzure | right? | 22:12 |
| kanzure | okay | 22:12 |
| fenn | if skdb is an installed program it will inherit the default $path, if the user installs it in their home dir and runs it as the user, it will use the user's $path | 22:12 |
| fenn | i've learned from emc2 that it's nice to have various development versions contained in a single directory, and then you can cd into that directory and run a script that changes your env variables to use that copy as if it were installed | 22:14 |
| fenn | each contained in a single directory of their own, like ~/skdb.stable ~/skdb.testing | 22:14 |
| fenn | but for an installed program on an end-user's machine, it doesnt matter so much, you can follow the distro's guidelines | 22:15 |
| fenn | oops: http://autogen.sourceforge.net/ | 22:17 |
| kanzure | Hm. | 22:18 |
| fenn | that's a near-miss, and probably where i got the name from | 22:18 |
| kanzure | :) | 22:18 |
| fenn | its very much what i'm trying to do though | 22:19 |
| fenn | as little source code as possible | 22:19 |
| kanzure | "A common example where this would be useful is in creating and maintaining the code required for processing program options. Processing options requires multiple constructs to be maintained in parallel in different places in your program" | 22:20 |
| kanzure | "options maintenance" - excellent | 22:20 |
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| kanzure | Hi Jarocks. | 22:20 |
| Jarocks | hi | 22:20 |
| kanzure | fenn: I wonder if their options maintenance is extensible to the point where it would work with our yaml system. | 22:21 |
| fenn | Jarocks: we're talking about an open-source engineering expert system | 22:21 |
| Jarocks | Okay | 22:21 |
| fenn | that we're making | 22:21 |
| kanzure | I found Jarocks in #biology, he does microbiology. | 22:21 |
| kanzure | so that means self-replicating (bio) machines | 22:22 |
| fenn | it may or may not be extendable to biotech, hard to say at this point | 22:22 |
| fenn | and my relative ignorance of modern bioinformatics | 22:22 |
| kanzure | faceface can help with that | 22:22 |
| fenn | i've used clustal if that helps :P | 22:22 |
| fenn | kanzure: how are you envisioning options maintenance being used? | 22:23 |
| fenn | i think they mean stuff like, myprogram --verbose --yeah-i-really-mean-it | 22:24 |
| Jarocks | What language is this being coded in? | 22:24 |
| kanzure | fenn: Wasn't that the idea of the 'file format io spec' metadata for programs? So that you can say "This program allows xyz input, as this parameter." | 22:24 |
| fenn | Jarocks: python, shell, yaml (more of a data format) | 22:24 |
| kanzure | Jarocks: Anything that ends up working. Right now it looks like python. We're doing some intense specifications. | 22:24 |
| Jarocks | Ahh | 22:24 |
| kanzure | Jarocks: There's an introduction to this project, sort of, at http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb | 22:24 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Self-replication | 22:25 |
| kanzure | and a more lucid, but varying attempt at http://heybryan.org/recursion.html | 22:25 |
| fenn | nice block of text on that last link :) | 22:25 |
| kanzure | fenn - I may have added some text to http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/2008-04-14 | 22:25 |
| kanzure | heh | 22:25 |
| fenn | a textoid plaque | 22:25 |
| kanzure | I ... can't help it. :) | 22:26 |
| fenn | autoengix :P | 22:27 |
| Jarocks | Wow I'm way over my head here | 22:27 |
| Jarocks | Lol | 22:27 |
| fenn | not quite as memorable | 22:28 |
| kanzure | so are we | 22:28 |
| Jarocks | So this is like an open source labtable? | 22:28 |
| Jarocks | Sort of? | 22:28 |
| kanzure | That's a good way to put it. | 22:28 |
| kanzure | Have you heard of debian? | 22:28 |
| Jarocks | yes | 22:28 |
| kanzure | Then have you heard of apt? | 22:28 |
| fenn | Jarocks: imagine you have a santa claus machine, that can spit out almost anything | 22:28 |
| Jarocks | I prefer ubuntu but go on | 22:28 |
| fenn | this is the software that the machine uses to build the tools to build the tools.. | 22:28 |
| fenn | and to know which tools it needs to build for the end product | 22:28 |
| Jarocks | as in sudo-apt get | 22:28 |
| Jarocks | ? | 22:28 |
| fenn | yes | 22:28 |
| kanzure | Jarocks: APT for projects. | 22:28 |
| kanzure | not just software =) | 22:29 |
| fenn | apt goes and fetches all the programs and libraries you need to run software | 22:29 |
| fenn | autogenix builds all the tools you need to build (stuff) | 22:29 |
| fenn | or tells you what tools you need to get | 22:29 |
| Jarocks | ahh | 22:29 |
| fenn | or determines whether its possible to build X given Y tools and materials | 22:30 |
| Jarocks | Ahh | 22:30 |
| Jarocks | Related to biology | 22:30 |
| Jarocks | okay | 22:30 |
| Jarocks | I got it | 22:30 |
| Jarocks | sort of | 22:30 |
| fenn | yes, actually it might be easier with biology in some respects (patent issues aside) | 22:30 |
| Jarocks | Ahh | 22:31 |
| Jarocks | okay | 22:31 |
| fenn | a single cell is way more sophisticated and integrated than human technology is right now | 22:31 |
| Jarocks | yep | 22:32 |
| fenn | but, its not easily programmable. there's no documentation | 22:32 |
| Jarocks | For cells? | 22:33 |
| Jarocks | or desbianm | 22:33 |
| fenn | and you're limited to a certain range of temperature, material types, and lacking precision in large structures (except where it's a result of emergent properties) | 22:33 |
| fenn | cells are not easily programmable | 22:33 |
| fenn | you cant say, 'make me a toaster' | 22:33 |
| kanzure | Neat, Brett just came up to ask me about the synthesis of ethylene from methanic atmospheres. | 22:34 |
| fenn | hmm.. heavy metal catalysis? how would one go about that? | 22:34 |
| Jarocks | Yes | 22:34 |
| kanzure | I'd like to say make me a toaster - that's what biobricks is supposedly about, but they ignore these stuff. | 22:34 |
| kanzure | fenn: I was thinking it's a simple organic chem reaction method | 22:34 |
| fenn | why does he want to make ethylene | 22:35 |
| kanzure | methane -> ethylene is the addition of a carbon or something | 22:35 |
| fenn | removal of hydrogen | 22:35 |
| kanzure | now that he's quit his job, he just sits around all day doing nothing, supposedly he's writing a scifi manuscript, but from what I've seen him writing previously, eh | 22:35 |
| Jarocks | Do you have PHDs | 22:36 |
| fenn | (ch4)2 -> (ch2=ch2) + h2 | 22:36 |
| kanzure | Jarocks: http://heybryan.org/ to see who I am. | 22:36 |
| kanzure | fenn: s/Brett/dad/ | 22:36 |
| Jarocks | What do u mean by s/ | 22:36 |
| kanzure | it's a perl regular expression meaning replace | 22:37 |
| Jarocks | Ahh | 22:37 |
| fenn | it's sed syntax actually :) | 22:37 |
| kanzure | really | 22:37 |
| fenn | replace Brett with dad | 22:37 |
| kanzure | s/$1/$2/ means replace occurences of $1 with $2 | 22:37 |
| Jarocks | I've never been great with regular expression | 22:37 |
| fenn | yeah, in sed it's s/\1/\2/ i think | 22:37 |
| kanzure | Me either ;) | 22:37 |
| Jarocks | have always relied heavily on tutorials for it | 22:37 |
| fenn | well, no it's actually s/(stuff)/\1/ | 22:37 |
| kanzure | Jarocks: yeah, so we don't have PhDs. | 22:37 |
| fenn | would do precisely nothing | 22:37 |
| fenn | BS piled higher and deeper | 22:38 |
| fenn | i'm a level one academic | 22:38 |
| kanzure | fenn: def? | 22:39 |
| Jarocks | I'm still in AP bio | 22:39 |
| Jarocks | Taking Honors Micro also | 22:39 |
| kanzure | Jarocks: Yeah, I took AP bio last year | 22:39 |
| Jarocks | Gonna take Ap Chem next year | 22:39 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/school/Biology/notes/output.html are all of my notes from last year | 22:40 |
| kanzure | (on bio) | 22:40 |
| fenn | kanzure: BS == bachelor of science, is your first piece of paper | 22:40 |
| kanzure | that's level one? | 22:40 |
| fenn | then you get your MS == master's degree | 22:40 |
| kanzure | I thought level one would be the associate | 22:40 |
| kanzure | *associate's degree | 22:40 |
| kanzure | or something | 22:40 |
| fenn | i forget what the order is | 22:41 |
| kanzure | Associate's, BS, MS, PhD/MD, then some other random stuff throughout there to make you 'certified' like the GE for engineers and so on | 22:41 |
| fenn | somewhere in there, there's associate, doctorate, professor, emeritus(?) | 22:41 |
| Jarocks | Do you know anything about the mitosome beyond what wikipedia has | 22:41 |
| kanzure | emeritus is a degree? | 22:41 |
| fenn | well, its more like putting you out to pasture | 22:41 |
| kanzure | Hm. | 22:41 |
| fenn | a mitosome? whats that, like a mitochondria? | 22:42 |
| fenn | mitochondrium | 22:42 |
| kanzure | new organelle, fenn | 22:42 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitosome | 22:42 |
| kanzure | Unlike mitochondria, mitosomes do not have genes within them. The genes for mitosomal components are contained in the nuclear genome.[1] An early report suggested the presence of DNA in this organelle,[7] but more recent research has shown this not to be the case.[8] | 22:42 |
| kanzure | huh | 22:43 |
| kanzure | that's what http://sens.org/ is looking for | 22:43 |
| kanzure | if the mitosomes have the same functionality as mitochondria, and the genes are in the nuclear genome, then that's exactly it | 22:43 |
| fenn | why do they need this? | 22:44 |
| Jarocks | okay | 22:44 |
| fenn | i thought mitochondria didnt age | 22:44 |
| Jarocks | It doesn't age, It ages you :P | 22:44 |
| fenn | bah | 22:44 |
| Jarocks | Well it ages also | 22:44 |
| Jarocks | They do | 22:45 |
| Jarocks | Indirectly | 22:45 |
| Jarocks | Along with other factory | 22:45 |
| Jarocks | *factors | 22:45 |
| fenn | they dont age any more than bacteria age | 22:45 |
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| Jarocks | lost connection for a bit | 22:46 |
| * kanzure was interrupted again | 22:48 | |
| kanzure | fenn: mitochondria cause problems related to aging apparently | 22:48 |
| kanzure | MitoSENS explains | 22:48 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/transhuman/kanzure_questions.html | 22:49 |
| Jarocks | The free-radicals | 22:49 |
| kanzure | search for 'mito' | 22:49 |
| kanzure | Mitochondrial mutations oxidize circulating material and introduce toxins into mitochondrially healthy cells elsewhere. How does oxidized material contribute to senescence? | 22:49 |
| kanzure | [74] de Grey, A.D.N.J. (2003) in Genetics of mitochondrial diseases (Holt, I.J., Ed.), Oxford University | 22:49 |
| kanzure | Muscles are dependent on many thousands of mitochondria per myocyte. How can we localize PMRS inhibitors so as to not cause unintended muscle damage? | 22:49 |
| kanzure | mitochondriopathies | 22:49 |
| fenn | circulating material? | 22:49 |
| kanzure | educe the amount of NADH available to mitochondria (NADH takes electrons away, remember), via adding “intracellular electron acceptors.” | 22:50 |
| kanzure | wild-type mtDNA | 22:50 |
| kanzure | anyway, lots of notes on that page | 22:50 |
| fenn | hayflick limit is interesting | 22:51 |
| kanzure | dunno how that's corrected for in spermatogenesis/embryogenesis | 22:51 |
| fenn | i dont think anyone does (last i heard) | 22:51 |
| Jarocks | Is that related to the whole linear genome shortening of the dna thing | 22:52 |
| fenn | yes, telomeres etc | 22:52 |
| Jarocks | the hayflick limit not apply to prokaryotes | 22:52 |
| Jarocks | *does | 22:52 |
| fenn | or cancer cells | 22:52 |
| kanzure | Jarocks: was that +does or [-not +does] ? | 22:53 |
| Jarocks | +does | 22:53 |
| Jarocks | Does the hayflick limit not apply to prokaryotes? | 22:53 |
| fenn | it does not, otherwise they would all be dead by now | 22:54 |
| Jarocks | Lol | 22:54 |
| kanzure | serves them right | 22:54 |
| fenn | stupid prokaryotes | 22:54 |
| * kanzure kicks a few prokaries | 22:54 | |
| Jarocks | Doesn't apply to cancer >_< | 22:54 |
| Jarocks | Stupid telemerease | 22:55 |
| kanzure | killed Dolly, and anything that killed Dolly must be bad | 22:55 |
| Jarocks | (not that its stupid, only in the case of cancer) | 22:55 |
| Jarocks | Yep | 22:55 |
| fenn | bwaaaah | 22:55 |
| fenn | (sad sheep noise) | 22:56 |
| kanzure | fenn: you need to work on it | 22:56 |
| kanzure | I mistook it for your mother | 22:56 |
| kanzure | not bad, eh? | 22:56 |
| fenn | i dont get it | 22:56 |
| fenn | are you saying i was cloned from a sheep? | 22:57 |
| kanzure | the idea is to one-up each other with your-mom jokes, but it doesn't matter since I always lose | 22:57 |
| kanzure | my mom's a whore | 22:57 |
| kanzure | a stripper, I mean | 22:57 |
| Jarocks | lol | 22:57 |
| kanzure | http://lockhartwoodworks.com/ | 22:57 |
| Jarocks | Idk people don't do your mom jokes much anymore | 22:57 |
| kanzure | I see. | 22:57 |
| * kanzure gets back to work | 22:58 | |
| Jarocks | I really wanna make protobionts again, was fun yet pointless | 22:58 |
| kanzure | ? | 22:58 |
| Jarocks | Idk we made protobionts in ap bio | 22:58 |
| Jarocks | it was fun | 22:59 |
| Jarocks | yet they are unsuprisingly boring | 22:59 |
| Jarocks | Idk I like the whole origin of life thingy | 23:00 |
| Jarocks | Abiogenisis | 23:00 |
| fenn | people always assume it happened on earth though | 23:00 |
| fenn | even though life appeared unreasonably soon after the planet surface cooled off | 23:01 |
| Jarocks | Well if not on Earth | 23:01 |
| Jarocks | Then Mars is the next best canidate | 23:01 |
| fenn | bah | 23:01 |
| kanzure | shit, who told Wheeler to die | 23:01 |
| fenn | there's the whole rest of the universe out there | 23:01 |
| kanzure | "Eminent physicist John Archibald Wheeler has died from pneumonia at the age of 96. The coiner of the terms 'black hole' and 'wormhole,' Wheeler popularized the study of general relativity, and advised a distinguished list of graduate students including | 23:02 |
| kanzure | Kip Thorne and Richard Feynman. Other work included a collaboration with Niels Bohr to develop the 'liquid drop' model of nuclear fission. | 23:02 |
| kanzure | Max Tegmark, a cosmologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said of Dr. Wheeler, 'For me, he was the last Titan, the only physics superhero still standing.'" | 23:02 |
| kanzure | Max Tegmark does some good mathematics worth looking into, re: Zindell and Egan. | 23:02 |
| fenn | well, they're all dead, maybe we'll get some new physics now | 23:03 |
| Jarocks | well most people need to get over the fact that life probobly isn't as special as we would all like to think it | 23:03 |
| fenn | life is quite special, why do you think it's not? | 23:03 |
| Jarocks | It is | 23:04 |
| Jarocks | But if panspermia is true | 23:04 |
| kanzure | hm, Weinberg is still alive and local | 23:04 |
| Jarocks | Then life may be a universal norm | 23:04 |
| kanzure | So what if panspermia is true? | 23:04 |
| fenn | then earth isnt quite so special (but it's all we got) | 23:04 |
| fenn | also, i bet there arent any butterflies or mountain lions anywhere else in the universe | 23:05 |
| Jarocks | Lol | 23:05 |
| Jarocks | True | 23:06 |
| kanzure | ah, then there's Dyson and Gell-Mann, and Wolfram, some of them are still alive I guess (Wolfram just hung out with those guys, not necessarily such a biggie, not yet) | 23:06 |
| fenn | well, maybe | 23:06 |
| fenn | hard to say really | 23:06 |
| * fenn kicks wifi router | 23:06 | |
| Jarocks | lol | 23:06 |
| Jarocks | Mines not close enoug | 23:06 |
| Jarocks | *enough | 23:06 |
| fenn | mine's too far away | 23:06 |
| Jarocks | So are they doing anything about gravity | 23:07 |
| fenn | i have to ping it in order for my ssh session to update sometimes | 23:07 |
| Jarocks | Now that these people died | 23:07 |
| Jarocks | Because I still am not buying into that whole dark matter stuff | 23:07 |
| fenn | well its quite early, i mean, only like 8 hours ago or so | 23:07 |
| Jarocks | I think we got gravity wrong: again | 23:07 |
| fenn | give the man some respect before vulturing into his property! | 23:08 |
| Jarocks | lol | 23:08 |
| kanzure | re: gravity, see John Baez and Lee Smolin | 23:08 |
| Jarocks | ooh nanobacteria | 23:10 |
| kanzure | anybody remember 'surfer-dude physicist', A. Garret Lisi? | 23:10 |
| Jarocks | nope | 23:11 |
| kanzure | meh | 23:12 |
| Jarocks | Proboblu | 23:13 |
| Jarocks | *probobly | 23:13 |
| Jarocks | yeah | 23:13 |
| Jarocks | I think so | 23:14 |
| fenn | nanobacteria could be biological but not self-replicating | 23:14 |
| Jarocks | They have shown they can reproduce | 23:16 |
| Jarocks | theres i think even a pic of one dividing | 23:17 |
| fenn | nanobaclabs.com sets off my quack detector | 23:18 |
| fenn | er, investment-scam detector | 23:18 |
| kanzure | if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands. | 23:19 |
| Jarocks | New superweapon possably | 23:19 |
| fenn | interesting that wickramasinghe (panspermia guy) is an author on one of their papers | 23:20 |
| Jarocks | Heh the superantigen would actually be the best canidate for a bio weapon | 23:20 |
| kanzure | fenn: anybody suggesting panspermia and not doing active astrophysics spectra research, or not doing nucleic acid auto'genesis' research, is a quack | 23:20 |
| kanzure | there's absolutely no reason to dive into those sorts of experiments these days | 23:20 |
| kanzure | uh | 23:21 |
| kanzure | *to not dive into those experiments | 23:21 |
| fenn | um, they already did spectra | 23:21 |
| kanzure | neat | 23:21 |
| fenn | result: bacteria are damn near everywhere | 23:21 |
| fenn | then there's the stardust probe results | 23:21 |
| fenn | (bacteria fragments) | 23:21 |
| fenn | wickramasinghe was trying to isolate bacteria from the stratosphere | 23:22 |
| kanzure | did he succeed? | 23:22 |
| Jarocks | Probobly | 23:22 |
| fenn | dunno, i think they were either hard to culture or pretty normal bacteria | 23:22 |
| fenn | doesn't say much either way | 23:23 |
| Jarocks | These nanobes look awsome | 23:23 |
| fenn | they did isotope analysis of the bacteria, i forget what the results were | 23:23 |
| Jarocks | smaller than 300 nm! | 23:23 |
| Jarocks | Possably the most primative life | 23:23 |
| Jarocks | ? | 23:23 |
| fenn | http://www.panspermia.org/whatsne32.htm#040331 | 23:24 |
| fenn | i talked with brig klyce at the alife conference, he seemed like a normal scientist | 23:24 |
| kanzure | are you on the alife mailing list? | 23:25 |
| fenn | no | 23:25 |
| Jarocks | Can you find out what the deal is with the nannobacteria | 23:25 |
| Jarocks | Apparently theres evidence to support them | 23:25 |
| kanzure | http://lists.idyll.org/listinfo/alife-announce | 23:25 |
| Jarocks | and other stuff | 23:25 |
| Jarocks | confusing | 23:25 |
| kanzure | it's mostly postdoc position and conf announcements | 23:27 |
| fenn | it's the -announce list | 23:27 |
| fenn | i think scientists mostly talk one-on-one or write letters to journals | 23:28 |
| fenn | or go to conferences | 23:28 |
| fenn | it's changing of course, but they're not totally decentralized like we are | 23:29 |
| kanzure | I have a file in my ~/cache/ that talks about changing the way sci is done to be more like programmer hackfests | 23:29 |
| kanzure | for more rapid communication, especially over the net and in person for 48 hour periods of intense work | 23:30 |
| kanzure | voluntary cramtime | 23:30 |
| fenn | yeah its pretty stupid that people spend 2 months preparing a speech at a conference | 23:30 |
| kanzure | yikes | 23:30 |
| fenn | well, maybe not that much | 23:30 |
| kanzure | they should do it like perl lightning talks | 23:30 |
| fenn | depends on the conference | 23:30 |
| kanzure | 5 minute talks, stand up, get your point across, sit back down, bitch | 23:30 |
| fenn | hah | 23:31 |
| Jarocks | God I've been searching google, theres nothing | 23:31 |
| Jarocks | Nothing usefull | 23:31 |
| kanzure | Have you ever considered that Google *is* god? | 23:31 |
| fenn | google, i've been searching, there's nothing! | 23:31 |
| fenn | google why have you forsaken me | 23:31 |
| kanzure | "file a bug report" | 23:31 |
| Jarocks | lol | 23:32 |
| Jarocks | I mean nothing usefull | 23:33 |
| fenn | sounds like you need AutoScholar | 23:33 |
| Jarocks | as into sheding the light onto what the hell nanobacterium | 23:33 |
| kanzure | indeed! | 23:33 |
| Jarocks | are | 23:33 |
| fenn | for only 4 million dollars, you can have lightning-fast access to any scientific publication on the planet! | 23:33 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/projects/autoscholar/ | 23:33 |
| Jarocks | Lol | 23:33 |
| fenn | this might be a good place to start, if you're really interested (see why i hate accademia) http://www.nanobaclabs.com/content/scientific-publications.htm | 23:34 |
| kanzure | fenn: would be nice to see AutoScholar integration with autogenix (not necessarily skdb) | 23:34 |
| fenn | meh | 23:34 |
| kanzure | would be an interface package perhaps | 23:35 |
| fenn | i dont expect a computer to get anything useful from natural language descriptions | 23:35 |
| kanzure | sure | 23:35 |
| kanzure | but with BibTex being passed around, some good could come of it | 23:35 |
| kanzure | especially if BibTeX is given reference-links to directly get the file | 23:35 |
| kanzure | with open access sci papers, shuffling bits and bytes becomes easier | 23:35 |
| kanzure | in fact, there's no reason to not just pass along a depth-tree of history references | 23:35 |
| fenn | right | 23:36 |
| kanzure | and then if you want the full paper and all references, go to a watering hole somewhere (a packaging/aggregator server for papers) | 23:36 |
| fenn | well, there's no reason not to pass along the whole paper really | 23:36 |
| kanzure | right | 23:36 |
| fenn | anyway.. | 23:36 |
| kanzure | and then some references too while we're at it | 23:36 |
| kanzure | it's not much space | 23:36 |
| kanzure | unless it's image-only format | 23:36 |
| kanzure | in which case somebody needs to be shot | 23:37 |
| fenn | i will slay anyone who releases a paper in image format | 23:37 |
| Jarocks | Well you've lost me here | 23:37 |
| Jarocks | lol | 23:37 |
| fenn | its 2008 there's no excuse | 23:37 |
| kanzure | Jarocks: some scientists release papers about their studies, but they do it as an image | 23:37 |
| kanzure | think of it as taking a picture of your paper | 23:37 |
| kanzure | and then uploading the picture | 23:37 |
| kanzure | instead of the plain text | 23:37 |
| Jarocks | IC | 23:37 |
| Jarocks | B/C just putting up a plaintext version would be too easy? | 23:38 |
| Jarocks | What about some sort of text recognition system? | 23:38 |
| kanzure | tried that | 23:38 |
| kanzure | see http://heybryan.org/projects/autoscholar/ | 23:38 |
| fenn | because they think the pdf is prettier, and are using broken software | 23:38 |
| kanzure | OCR software really sucks with image-based PDFs anyway | 23:38 |
| kanzure | because normally the paper that they pictured was wrinkly or something | 23:38 |
| fenn | not enough resolution? | 23:38 |
| kanzure | dunno | 23:38 |
| kanzure | that too | 23:39 |
| kanzure | lots of problems | 23:39 |
| fenn | ocr needs lots of resolution still | 23:39 |
| fenn | reading is a very involved process | 23:39 |
| kanzure | yes | 23:39 |
| fenn | you practically need something like cyc to disambiguate | 23:39 |
| fenn | in which case you can just blank out entire sentences and get the gist | 23:40 |
| kanzure | plus some magic =) | 23:40 |
| kanzure | grammatoscope | 23:40 |
| fenn | yeah, check out geoff hinton, that's magic | 23:40 |
| kanzure | zoomable grammars and expandable texts | 23:40 |
| fenn | the ANN stuff | 23:40 |
| kanzure | not for zoomability, that's just "assisted authoring" plus some heavy-duty XMLing | 23:40 |
| fenn | heh | 23:41 |
| kanzure | Japanese cell phones do intense assisted authoring, last I heard | 23:41 |
| kanzure | never tried it | 23:41 |
| fenn | would you like the abstract? or an infinite amount of text? | 23:41 |
| kanzure | don't tempt me? | 23:41 |
| fenn | i'll take the abstract, thanks | 23:42 |
| fenn | if only they had pictures in abstracts | 23:42 |
| Jarocks | lol | 23:42 |
| fenn | dont lol me, mister | 23:42 |
| kanzure | more SVG for pics too, please | 23:42 |
| kanzure | but photographs are okay | 23:42 |
| fenn | svg for representative art | 23:42 |
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| kanzure | He wasn't that cool anyway. | 23:43 |
| fenn | for MEMS/carbon nanotube stuff, electron micrographs are really helpful | 23:43 |
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| Jarocks | Well I Have to go | 23:44 |
| Jarocks | Cya | 23:44 |
| fenn | tata | 23:44 |
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| fenn | tata box inhibitor! | 23:44 |
| kanzure | 'night | 23:46 |
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