| --- Day changed Tue Apr 15 2008 | ||
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| kanzure | Hey. | 17:44 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/docs/Intense_world_syndrome.pdf | 17:47 |
| Splicer | heybryan | 17:52 |
| kanzure | Hi Splicer. | 17:52 |
| Splicer | ..yeah, not gonna read that one.. maybe I have ADHD | 17:53 |
| Splicer | (joke) | 17:54 |
| kanzure | *I* am the one with ADHD. | 17:55 |
| Splicer | you have the opposite | 17:56 |
| Splicer | I read skimmed some of the ideonomy papers today | 17:57 |
| kanzure | I have some pretty powerful ADHD, my friend. | 17:57 |
| kanzure | Did you like ideonomy stuff? | 17:57 |
| Splicer | hmm... i liked the introduction.. a lot, extremely well written piece | 17:58 |
| kanzure | Yes. I talked with Gunkel a month ago when David Dalrymple (he came in here a few weeks ago to explain to us the computational complexity classes) pointed him out. I saw that Gunkel might have been in Austin, so I emailed him and asked if I could get him a lunch sometime. He replied back, we talked a little, he's completely done with ideonomy, too intense for his tastes. | 17:59 |
| Splicer | i never really understood how it would be related to math... to me it seemed to be about organizing things, very subjective, like an iq test or something | 18:00 |
| Splicer | i mean, the thing begins with defining what thing goes where, and that's dependant on that one already somehow know it | 18:02 |
| kanzure | Mathematics and organization go together - that's how we have so many mathematical structures, as well as datastructs in our programming libraries. | 18:02 |
| Splicer | yeah, but isn´t the big task finding the right categories and ordering those? | 18:03 |
| Splicer | the philosoper who uses it, ken wilber, he organizes societies according to colors | 18:04 |
| kanzure | The 'right' ones? :) | 18:04 |
| Splicer | safe colors | 18:05 |
| Splicer | i kinda like memetics, organizing is not my kink | 18:07 |
| kanzure | You seem to make arbitrary distinctions where none exist. It's not about organizing things, but rather combinatorics, and to do combinatorics you need to be able to do lists of things; so if you recursively go through the list, then you can assume you have saturated the structs. | 18:08 |
| kanzure | If you find you missed a piece, you go back and add it. But then you need computers to rebuild the rest, else that's *tons* of manual work. That's what impressed me about Gunkel. I was *sure* that he had overcame the overhead problem. | 18:08 |
| kanzure | fenn: I'd like you to take a look at that PDF. | 18:12 |
| Splicer | i didn´t read that far... but isn´t what you are describing about organizing? and the reason for the importance of organizing.. as oposed to memetics which is about how an idea is tansmitted and how it evolves | 18:13 |
| kanzure | Memetics is more than how the idea is transmitted, it's also about the 'monster' (meme) while inside the brain. | 18:14 |
| Splicer | yeah, that's what intrests me, the autopsy isn´t that interesting | 18:15 |
| Splicer | societies by color: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics | 18:15 |
| kanzure | sounds like a weird name to name it | 18:16 |
| kanzure | first few sentences seem to check out | 18:16 |
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| Insanity3 | Hi kanzure sent me here saying there are other people interested in Henry Markram's research | 19:02 |
| fenn | Splicer: the categorization scheme is called an ontology | 19:12 |
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| fenn | so gunkel is over ideonomics, what does he do? | 19:14 |
| fenn | from what i read it seemed to entirely consume his life | 19:14 |
| fenn | Splicer: if you admit that there's an objective reality, then there are questions that can be asked about that reality, and answers to the questions | 19:15 |
| Splicer | yes? | 19:20 |
| fenn | hm. spiral dynamics seems rather muddled and doesnt say a lot | 19:20 |
| Splicer | i think you´re absolutely right | 19:21 |
| Splicer | it's an example to me that the categorisations become subjective | 19:22 |
| fenn | ok | 19:22 |
| kanzure | fenn: it looks like some basic ideas from the first few sentences that I read. | 19:23 |
| fenn | i think most philosophers are not familiar enough with game theory to point at a particular strategy and say "this is green" or whatever | 19:23 |
| fenn | sure, memes, value systems in moral relativism | 19:23 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://heybryan.org/docs/Intense_world_syndrome.pdf <-- read this. | 19:23 |
| fenn | there was a UN survey on value systems by country, and correlated various value systems with declared happiness | 19:24 |
| fenn | wah | 19:24 |
| fenn | they have autistic rats? | 19:26 |
| Splicer | fenn: So has anyone solved it? if the basedata is subjective, appying math to it won´t make science. | 19:26 |
| fenn | Splicer: no, i'm saying the value systems are objective, and you can find the mathematics behind them if you study game theory | 19:27 |
| Splicer | it all becomes mussy as you say, like this: http://ideonomy.mit.edu/mapsandlists-set1/pic016.html | 19:27 |
| Splicer | what do you mean by value system? | 19:28 |
| fenn | actually, my brain made that last sentence up | 19:28 |
| fenn | i disclaim all responsibility for it! | 19:28 |
| fenn | value system = vMeme of spiral dynamics | 19:29 |
| Splicer | hehe.. i usually say 'I take it back and claim the opposite' | 19:29 |
| fenn | its basically your philosophy behind life, which memes can flourish in you | 19:29 |
| Splicer | yeah, it's subjetive | 19:29 |
| fenn | but anyway, with ideonomics, there might be multiple ontologies talking about the same objective reality | 19:29 |
| fenn | it can be hard to stick to one ontology sometimes | 19:30 |
| kanzure | right | 19:30 |
| Splicer | i think you´re right | 19:30 |
| fenn | if we had a theory of everything, well, maybe you could use it for everything, but maybe not | 19:30 |
| * Splicer is waiting for the singularity | 19:31 | |
| Splicer | *tap* *tap' *tap* | 19:31 |
| kanzure | Splicer: I am working as fast as I can. I'll try to go faster. | 19:31 |
| fenn | you have to admit it's a clever map | 19:31 |
| fenn | er, diagram | 19:31 |
| kanzure | "The map is not the territory" - thus emphasis on 'clever' | 19:32 |
| kanzure | and i.e. mapmaking as an art and science | 19:32 |
| kanzure | thus my maps of the internet. | 19:32 |
| Splicer | it's a good saying that "The map is not the territory" | 19:33 |
| Splicer | (except in math) | 19:33 |
| kanzure | Nope, in math you get to study maps, like in topology, set theory, category theory, graph theory, topos, number theory, ... | 19:34 |
| Splicer | i love the concept of memespaces | 19:35 |
| fenn | what is a memespace? | 19:35 |
| Splicer | the collection of memes that make out a piece of territory | 19:35 |
| fenn | are you sure that isnt a meme complex? | 19:36 |
| fenn | from what i gather, memespace is the set of all possible memes | 19:38 |
| Splicer | hmm. according to wikipedia i think yes | 19:38 |
| Splicer | i've never used it to mean that | 19:38 |
| fenn | perhaps you mean something like a local memespace (whatever that might mean) | 19:40 |
| Splicer | wikipedia seems to use both: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memespace | 19:40 |
| Splicer | (n memespace gets twice the hist on google) | 19:42 |
| Splicer | ((hits)) | 19:42 |
| fenn | (((zowee!))) | 19:43 |
| Splicer | ((((\m/)))) | 19:43 |
| * Splicer goes to sleep | 20:05 | |
| Splicer | cu | 20:05 |
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| fenn | kanzure: i dont know 20% of the words in that paper, it just looks like a review article to me | 20:12 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html | 20:12 |
| kanzure | fenn: the hypothesis suggests what we were discussing last night | 20:13 |
| kanzure | that autism is intense information processing | 20:13 |
| kanzure | but this puts those ideas to specific brain structures that have been experimentally confirmed | 20:13 |
| fenn | auditory startle - no effect | 20:14 |
| kanzure | hm | 20:14 |
| kanzure | in the paper that I linked to? | 20:14 |
| fenn | auditory fear generalization - enhanced | 20:15 |
| fenn | i dont know what these tests mean | 20:15 |
| kanzure | they are standards in the experimentalists' community, so it's just a lack of social knowledge here | 20:16 |
| kanzure | I'll go through the list and do a writeup when I get to it | 20:16 |
| kanzure | I have some blog posts to read over from an individual I picked up from #wrongplanet -- it's a good place to find individuals from time to time, but you really just have to get in and out and be done with it | 20:16 |
| fenn | dunno if you've ever read this, but i liked it | 20:19 |
| fenn | http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/autism | 20:19 |
| kanzure | grr, I need more Bayes | 20:24 |
| fenn | http://yudkowsky.net/bayes/bayes.html | 20:26 |
| fenn | he had a nice explanation about an AI in a computer with a monitor and a light sensor.. | 20:31 |
| fenn | i cant seem to find it | 20:32 |
| kanzure | heh, I'd rather go to the source of Eliezer's understanding of Bayes | 20:33 |
| kanzure | I'm pretty sure it's Jef. | 20:33 |
| fenn | can you see things without moving your eyes to look at them? | 20:46 |
| fenn | can you focus on them | 20:46 |
| kanzure | without moving my eyes? | 20:48 |
| kanzure | there's significant loss of detail to the point where I am pretty sure I'm not getting much relevant information except 'nothing is moving there, so you are okay' | 20:48 |
| fenn | i just cant read words | 20:49 |
| kanzure | huh? | 20:49 |
| kanzure | oh | 20:49 |
| fenn | i think my glasses interfere with peripheral vision too, probably why i hate them | 20:50 |
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| kanzure | Aulere: Hey. | 21:33 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html <-- what I've been working on tonight. | 21:33 |
| kanzure | spawned from http://heybryan.org/docs/Intense_world_syndrome.pdf | 21:34 |
| Aulere | hi kanzure - sorry for the delay | 21:47 |
| Aulere | very interesting | 21:50 |
| kanzure | Aulere: yeah? | 22:24 |
| kanzure | blah, somebody just called me an idiot on http://google.com/virgle - and here I am designing ways for him to become smarter | 22:41 |
| kanzure | why do I bother? | 22:41 |
| kanzure | (joking:)) | 22:41 |
| Aulere | hehe | 22:43 |
| Aulere | yeah, I found it very interesting. You've obviously studied the subject to some depth. | 22:43 |
| Aulere | So I learned a bit about it. | 22:43 |
| fenn | what about virgle? | 22:46 |
| kanzure | ? | 22:49 |
| kanzure | to either of you | 22:49 |
| fenn | to each his own | 22:53 |
| fenn | what does 'someone called me an idiot on' mean precisely | 22:53 |
| kanzure | it doesn't mean anything, I am just complaining | 22:54 |
| fenn | what is your stance on virgle? | 22:55 |
| kanzure | "Hey Bryan, I checked out your website AND YOU ARE AN IDIOT." <-- why would that noise come into play? | 22:55 |
| kanzure | my stance is proactionary and one of helpfulness | 22:55 |
| kanzure | http://openvirgle.net/ <-- am participating. | 22:55 |
| fenn | why not work with the mars society? | 22:55 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/notes.html | 22:56 |
| kanzure | sure | 22:56 |
| kanzure | and many other organizations | 22:56 |
| fenn | is that where you learnd about oscomak? | 22:57 |
| kanzure | I also work with Artemis, L5, the Moon Society, Interplanetary Ventures, FREDNET, Cringely, etc. | 22:57 |
| kanzure | yes | 22:57 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_Institute_of_Pathology <-- this looks delicious | 23:02 |
| fenn | did you ever contact fernhout about skdb? | 23:23 |
| fenn | nm i see you mentioned something, i guess that's all we got right now | 23:25 |
| kanzure | yes, I did, he seems to be in a rut and not caring | 23:27 |
| fenn | the semantic mediawiki thread? | 23:28 |
| fenn | its hard to see your own blind spots :) | 23:28 |
| fenn | ugh fernhout thinks scientific growth is over | 23:34 |
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