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| -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] | 07:53 | |
| [Users #hplusroadmap] | 07:53 | |
| [ fenn] [ fenn_] [ krebs] [ Phreedom] | 07:53 | |
| -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 4 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal] | 07:53 | |
| -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 | 07:53 | |
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| Biopunk | oh.. now I recognize you | 16:14 |
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| Biopunk | hello kanzure | 17:56 |
| kanzure | Hi Biopunk. | 17:57 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sustained_attention | 17:58 |
| kanzure | $1 per mg for the chemicals to make it happen. Soo that sucks. I'm going to make a bacteria to produce it. | 17:58 |
| Biopunk | I wan´t someone else to try it first | 18:05 |
| Biopunk | want | 18:05 |
| * nsh mentally fixes that apostrophe | 18:07 | |
| kanzure | I'll do it. | 18:07 |
| nsh | yay, now i can read | 18:07 |
| kanzure | :) | 18:08 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sustained_attention#Basal_forebrain_glutamatergic_modulation_of_cortical_acetylcholine_release | 18:08 |
| Biopunk | I was reading about schizofrenia... someone noted that the way it's diagnosed is to match behavour against a list... like if a person has more than 5 out of 8 symptoms then they have it... | 18:08 |
| nsh | schizophrenia is not a medical condition. | 18:08 |
| Biopunk | it's a state of mind? ;) | 18:09 |
| * nsh smiles | 18:09 | |
| Biopunk | it probably is... for instance bacause it runs in families | 18:09 |
| Biopunk | so there is a genetic component. | 18:10 |
| nsh | the problem is that it's so easy to do what you're unwittingly doing | 18:10 |
| Biopunk | whatäs that? | 18:11 |
| nsh | making an implicit connection between the discrete (specifical, particular) _diagnosis_ of schizophrenia and a similarly discrete underlying psychophysiological 'condition' | 18:11 |
| nsh | if you'd said "being diagnosed with schizophrenia runs in families", it'd be another thing altogether | 18:11 |
| nsh | i remember as a child being told i had "tonsilitis" | 18:12 |
| nsh | and i though tonsilitis was like chicken pox, or the library or blue peter (kids show) | 18:12 |
| nsh | that is, a specific thing | 18:13 |
| nsh | then i learnt that tonsilities just means an inflamation of the tonsils | 18:13 |
| nsh | which can be caused by all manner of things | 18:13 |
| Biopunk | so... | 18:13 |
| nsh | people used to have medical conditions given the same ontological singularity in the past | 18:14 |
| nsh | like "hysteria", or "melancholia" | 18:15 |
| Biopunk | yes... and we are making the same thin g with schizophrenia today | 18:15 |
| nsh | right | 18:15 |
| Biopunk | cause it's not well known what the causes can be' | 18:16 |
| nsh | but the binaryness of "X has schizophrenia" vs. "X does not have it" masks the underlying lack of knowledge | 18:16 |
| Biopunk | yes | 18:16 |
| nsh | while its diagnosis is generally understood to be as clear-cut as something that actually does have strict modality, like chicken pox | 18:17 |
| Biopunk | and it's diagnosed the same way as say pneumonia a hundred years ago... | 18:17 |
| Biopunk | it probably has an ok fit | 18:17 |
| nsh | according to the diagnostic and statistical manual | 18:18 |
| Biopunk | but noone knows what it actually is | 18:18 |
| nsh | a direct lineage from which can probably be traced back to the 'manuals' for determining sorcery | 18:18 |
| nsh | and whatever the terms predating that 'diagnosis' were :-) | 18:18 |
| kanzure | My psychology teacher swerves for butterflies. | 18:19 |
| Biopunk | ok ok... but it's still better than nothing. | 18:19 |
| Biopunk | ? | 18:19 |
| kanzure | nsh: What about the schizophrenic's GIANT GAPING VENTRICULAR HOLE in their brain? | 18:19 |
| Biopunk | people can have that without being schizofrenic | 18:20 |
| fenn | acetylcholine is expensive? | 18:20 |
| kanzure | fenn: lemme check | 18:20 |
| kanzure | I've been looking stuff up on http://sigma-aldrich.com/ | 18:20 |
| nsh | you mean, what about the 'giant gaping ventricular hole in the brain'-patient's posited schizophrenia | 18:20 |
| nsh | surely | 18:20 |
| kanzure | hm? | 18:20 |
| kanzure | Just do a brain scan to see if it's there. | 18:20 |
| kanzure | Kinda something important. | 18:20 |
| nsh | right | 18:20 |
| nsh | but the hole in the brain is something you can see | 18:21 |
| kanzure | hm, they have anticholinesterase-human | 18:21 |
| kanzure | oops, I mean Acetylcholinesterase | 18:21 |
| fenn | kanzure: everything from sigma-aldrich is expensive | 18:21 |
| fenn | look up lab-grade salt | 18:21 |
| kanzure | fenn: aha | 18:22 |
| kanzure | this explains it | 18:22 |
| kanzure | okay | 18:22 |
| fenn | or whatever grade the acetylcholine is | 18:22 |
| Biopunk | no need for the 5 out of 8 list.. there would be something physiological to see | 18:22 |
| fenn | then compare to the price of salt at grocery store | 18:22 |
| fenn | Biopunk: medical doctors use fancy words to cover up their ignorance, it's not your fault | 18:22 |
| Biopunk | that's a load off my chest | 18:23 |
| kanzure | fenn: I've been considering inserting the acetylcholine synthesis genes into bacteria | 18:23 |
| kanzure | and then implanting these into the gi-tract | 18:23 |
| kanzure | however, that's not very controlled | 18:23 |
| kanzure | I am hoping for an iv drip system | 18:23 |
| kanzure | but then you get into infection problems etc. | 18:23 |
| fenn | hmm.. just grow it in a vat and purify the acetylcholine | 18:23 |
| * nsh agrees with fenn | 18:24 | |
| kanzure | right, but you need to deliver it to the brain in a timely manner | 18:24 |
| fenn | why? how timely? | 18:24 |
| kanzure | 20 to 30 minutes would be nice | 18:24 |
| fenn | huh? | 18:24 |
| kanzure | so iv drip :) | 18:24 |
| nsh | people take choline sources orally, iirc | 18:24 |
| Biopunk | you guys need to go rat-shopping | 18:24 |
| kanzure | hm | 18:24 |
| kanzure | rat shopping? | 18:24 |
| kanzure | you mean mice-shopping? | 18:24 |
| fenn | i've noticed that if you take a lot of piracetam you'll probably get a really weird headache, unless you take an equivalent amount of lecithin | 18:25 |
| * nsh nods | 18:25 | |
| kanzure | where's Enki-2 when you need him | 18:25 |
| nsh | i was considering ordering some piracetam a while back | 18:25 |
| kanzure | he's very focused on aniracetams | 18:25 |
| kanzure | and other *racetams | 18:25 |
| nsh | what's your experience with it, fenn? | 18:25 |
| fenn | nsh: it increased my ability to discern people's drama/bullshit mechanisms | 18:26 |
| fenn | that's all | 18:26 |
| nsh | ah | 18:26 |
| fenn | also it had some minor grumbly tummy effect | 18:26 |
| nsh | i don't think i need any help with that faculty | 18:26 |
| nsh | through lack of exposure if not competance :-) | 18:26 |
| fenn | how do you manage that? | 18:27 |
| nsh | currently, by remaining on the penumbra of social spheres | 18:28 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Fine_chemicals there's not many companies that sell chemicals, it seems | 18:28 |
| nsh | that's probably not the best metric | 18:29 |
| fenn | everyone knows that if you need chemicals you're either a) making drugs b) a terrorist c) a well-funded research scientist | 18:29 |
| nsh | is there a category for chemical companies on wp? | 18:29 |
| * nsh nods frowningly | 18:30 | |
| kanzure | I guess I'm all three | 18:30 |
| kanzure | what now? | 18:30 |
| nsh | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chemical_companies_of_the_United_States | 18:30 |
| kanzure | oh, DuPont | 18:31 |
| nsh | ( and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chemical_companies ) | 18:31 |
| fenn | superkuh pointed me to some forum where they had lists of suppliers, now i dont remember | 18:31 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/forums.html | 18:32 |
| kanzure | probably the chemicals and weapons forum | 18:32 |
| kanzure | on roguescience.org | 18:32 |
| kanzure | or possibly the amateur experimentalism forum | 18:32 |
| kanzure | roguesci.org, I mean | 18:32 |
| * nsh installs bugmenot | 18:33 | |
| fenn | major problem is that procedural knowledge can't be explained (only declarative knowledge) | 18:34 |
| nsh | i don't grok | 18:35 |
| nsh | (you can explain a procedure..) | 18:35 |
| fenn | procedural knowledge is 'how to do it' and mostly learned through repetition | 18:36 |
| nsh | ah | 18:36 |
| fenn | its what makes you twitch in dreams | 18:36 |
| fenn | declarative knowledge is like f=ma | 18:36 |
| nsh | basically, experience isn't transferable as informatio | 18:37 |
| nsh | (at present) | 18:37 |
| kanzure | brb | 18:39 |
| kanzure | still looking for that list | 18:39 |
| kanzure | of chemical suppliers | 18:39 |
| Biopunk | I have a friend who can do things right the first time he does them | 18:39 |
| Biopunk | I've seen this ability be called 'pattern recognition' | 18:40 |
| Biopunk | it's strange to see | 18:40 |
| fenn | Biopunk: often that's the result of actually doing some research before you attempt something | 18:44 |
| fenn | Biopunk: put him on a skateboard and see what happens :) | 18:44 |
| fenn | kanzure: heh THC is listed as an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor | 18:47 |
| fenn | that's only ~$0.014 per mg in crude form | 18:48 |
| Biopunk | fenn: I think 10 years ago he would have learned as much skateboard in a day as others do in 2months | 18:49 |
| kanzure | Biopunk: That's just called focusing & repetition. | 19:08 |
| kanzure | I mean, if you do anything for an entire day ... | 19:08 |
| kanzure | I can read a textbook in a day, and at most a week, if I have the time. | 19:08 |
| fenn | "we really need some product lifecycle management that isn't evil" - bruce sterling | 19:09 |
| fenn | i forgot about disassembly/recycling requirements in skdb | 19:09 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol | 19:10 |
| kanzure | Weizmann Institute again | 19:10 |
| kanzure | argh, who are these people? | 19:10 |
| kanzure | I think they are Jewish | 19:10 |
| kanzure | Markram comes from the Weizmann Institute. | 19:10 |
| kanzure | 'The Weizmann Institute of Science (Hebrew: מכון ויצמן למדע), known as Machon Weizmann is a university and research institute in Rehovot, Israel. It differs from other Israeli universities in that it offers only graduate and post-graduate studies in the sciences.' | 19:10 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Israel | 19:11 |
| kanzure | 'The school is also known for having one of the world's top electrical engineering faculties as well as the Western world's largest computer science faculty.' | 19:12 |
| kanzure | that school is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technion_-_Israel_Institute_of_Technology not Weizmann | 19:12 |
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| kanzure | re: recycling, we have that problem *in general*. Like the recycling-plants, they have issues separating everything into categories. Although .. as long as 'fabhat' knows what materials it has, what it has made, etc., then it should be able to keep it categorized. | 19:14 |
| fenn | could you explain in detail what "fabhat" means? | 19:15 |
| fenn | is it a standardized collection of junk, or just any arbitrary junk being managed with skdb? | 19:16 |
| kanzure | fabhat == skdb, but I like to use 'fabhat' to make a comparison to 'redhat' (or debian or gentoo or ...) | 19:16 |
| kanzure | it's the physical 'standardized distribution' | 19:17 |
| kanzure | just like your hard drive is given a specific filesystem and directory structure for the linux-variant operating system, the same with the techshop/factory/machines/tools/etc. | 19:17 |
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| kanzure | http://www.pdfernhout.net/ | 20:28 |
| Biopunk | nsh: tampere? | 20:33 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/pipermail/hplusroadmap/2008-May/000530.html <-- An update on attention; I don't quite have the fully synthesized model yet. | 20:34 |
| Biopunk | kanzure: It's not just focusing and repetition I think. Some people seem to have a gift to connect fields of knowledge that don't are not obvously connected. And it seems to be an uncontious procedure, seen from the outside they seem to know that something should be done one way instead of another... it's not repetition. | 20:42 |
| kanzure | The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. -- Albert Einstein | 20:44 |
| Biopunk | (subcontious, not uncontious) | 20:44 |
| Biopunk | heh.. did he really say that? | 20:44 |
| kanzure | Apparently. | 20:45 |
| Biopunk | in any case.. the pattern recognition phenomena(lacking a better word for it) exists | 20:46 |
| fenn | declarative memory can be transformed to procedural memory by practice and repetition, and procedural->declarative by introspection/analysis/scientific method | 20:47 |
| kanzure | I think it's only 'nonobvious' to *you*. | 20:47 |
| kanzure | There's no magic in this :) | 20:48 |
| fenn | i beg to differ! | 20:48 |
| kanzure | oh so? | 20:48 |
| kanzure | hm | 20:48 |
| * fenn mumbles something about arthur clarke | 20:48 | |
| Biopunk | its a gift... a knid of intelligence | 20:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: I think I lost a few geek points, that's a good call | 20:48 |
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| fenn | the word 'magic' has been abused even more thoroughly than 'god' | 20:49 |
| fenn | and 'revolution' while i'm at it | 20:50 |
| kanzure | What I mean to say when I say "no magic" is this: "What one human can think, so can another." i.e., I'm exerting the fact that it's actually happening | 20:50 |
| fenn | oh, well, i beg to differ there too - there's obviously some genetic variation | 20:50 |
| kanzure | ultimately you can use your hands and tools to import that variation if necessary | 20:51 |
| fenn | i was watching this documentary on r. crumb the comic artist, and his brothers were also (even more insane) comic artists | 20:51 |
| kanzure | but yes. | 20:51 |
| fenn | the guy couldn't stop drawing, it just flows out of him | 20:51 |
| kanzure | fenn: did you see my notes on the Collyer brothers a while back? | 20:51 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/infohoarding.html | 20:51 |
| fenn | maybe.. i read abou them and some tangents | 20:51 |
| kanzure | these were two brothers that both had an obsessive condition | 20:51 |
| fenn | ocd and ocpd | 20:51 |
| kanzure | right | 20:51 |
| kanzure | it's not drawing, but they both had the condition | 20:51 |
| kanzure | and for some reason lived / worked together | 20:52 |
| fenn | love that name.. Lotta Lotass | 20:52 |
| Biopunk | his brother was the one liked to molest women right? | 20:53 |
| Biopunk | he killed himself? | 20:53 |
| fenn | r. crumb's brother liked to pull down women's shorts | 20:53 |
| fenn | and yes, a year after they made the documentary r. crumb killed himself | 20:54 |
| Biopunk | yeah... and crumb liked piggybackriding | 20:54 |
| kanzure | what comics did the crumbs brothers draw? | 20:54 |
| kanzure | crumb would have liked Henry Massalin, then. | 20:54 |
| kanzure | *Crumb. | 20:54 |
| kanzure | consistency :) | 20:54 |
| fenn | buncha weird shit | 20:54 |
| fenn | http://bp1.blogger.com/_K44CMeToWsA/R92rkHWGvZI/AAAAAAAAAF8/Qjvzj6mFgBk/s1600-h/Tommy-Toiet.jpg | 20:55 |
| Biopunk | good advise | 20:56 |
| fenn | i thought the same thing when i saw him piggybacking | 20:57 |
| Biopunk | I was looking through clips with GG Allin a while back | 21:01 |
| Biopunk | the reason was an article I read about punk in China.. they interviewed a young man who was very much into GG Allin | 21:03 |
| Biopunk | "Most people only fantasize about eating their own poop -- G.G. Allin lived that dream" | 21:06 |
| fenn | a true modern pioneer | 21:08 |
| Biopunk | now.. the intresting part is that he had a following... and still has | 21:09 |
| kanzure | Biopunk: there are in fact people who eat shit | 21:10 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scatology IIRC | 21:10 |
| Biopunk | I know | 21:10 |
| fenn | 2girls1cup.com | 21:11 |
| kanzure | is that what it is ? | 21:12 |
| kanzure | the freshman in my art class talk about that all the time | 21:12 |
| Biopunk | GG Allin? | 21:12 |
| kanzure | I figured it was just goatse 2.0 | 21:12 |
| kanzure | no, 2girls1cup | 21:12 |
| fenn | yep apparently it's much worse than goatse (never watched it myself) | 21:13 |
| Biopunk | I'm not gonna look... I saw it once.. it was made viral by perex hilton | 21:13 |
| Biopunk | (perez) | 21:13 |
| kanzure | fenn: it seems to want registration? | 21:14 |
| * kanzure goes back to homogeneous differential equations | 21:15 | |
| kanzure | my dad was yelling at me earlier tonight because I'm getting low grades in the calculus 2 class | 21:15 |
| Biopunk | there is a festival south of here... it used to draw around 20000 people every year to listen to music for a couple of days... and for about 10 years there was one guy there who every year... | 21:16 |
| Biopunk | would undress, smear himslf in shit and run around until security rounded him up and hosed him down... | 21:16 |
| Biopunk | he was famous... the talk of the party.. everyone would be guessing when he would appear and what he would do... | 21:17 |
| Biopunk | a guy who used to work there explained that he was extremey popular among the girls there... as he was famous... and that he used to be very well behaved, clean.. good clothes.. everything | 21:18 |
| kanzure | okay | 21:19 |
| Biopunk | ...and that every apparance was very well planned... to get the attention | 21:19 |
| kanzure | I'll tell you if I see him. | 21:19 |
| Biopunk | he was a social hacker | 21:19 |
| kanzure | he was batfucking insane | 21:21 |
| kanzure | I kid. | 21:21 |
| Biopunk | GG Allin was | 21:21 |
| fenn | re: google and internet archive being beacons of hope: "once the person realized that she could get any information she wanted by a simple search, her need to hoard diminished dramatically" | 21:32 |
| Vedestin | GG Allin was a social hacker? | 21:35 |
| fenn | GG Allin was batfucking insane | 21:38 |
| Biopunk | no.. the other guy... GG Allin was fucked up | 21:38 |
| Vedestin | ohh, good | 21:38 |
| Biopunk | of course there are more pleasant ways to social hack ;) | 21:40 |
| Biopunk | Derren Brown is one of my big favourites | 21:45 |
| Biopunk | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW2yKlNFFuU&feature=related | 21:45 |
| kanzure | fenn: I like to compare Google to a single person. Imagine there was this autist, a man who went through all of the libraries of the world and could remember everything, and he would respond to anybody who asked him a question that was worded similarly. | 21:45 |
| kanzure | fenn: it's kind of a "romantic formulation", but it helps to put it in context | 21:45 |
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| fenn | kanzure: i think you like that formulation because you dislike the concept of AI | 21:49 |
| kanzure | well, I dislike many things about our presentation of ai, but if an ai showed up I'd be happy with it | 21:50 |
| kanzure | Google ain't ai because it's just path-finding and semantic processing | 21:50 |
| fenn | nice cinematography | 21:50 |
| Biopunk | time to sleep.. cu | 22:19 |
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| kanzure | http://chempedia.com/ | 23:34 |
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