| --- Day changed Sat May 24 2008 | ||
| -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] | 00:49 | |
| -!- ybit [n=u1@c-71-207-240-143.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 00:50 | |
| ybit | http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=3086075142 | 00:58 |
|---|---|---|
| ybit | thought this might stimulate no intellectual conversation whatsoever | 00:59 |
| ybit | also located here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL_CVwqnn4k | 01:01 |
| -!- kramer3d [n=kramer3d@ip98-169-184-165.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 01:28 | |
| -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d58-111-90-12.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 05:06 | |
| -!- kramer3d [n=kramer3d@unaffiliated/kramer3d] has quit [] | 05:28 | |
| -!- Biopunk [n=p@h13n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [] | 06:08 | |
| -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d58-111-90-12.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #hplusroadmap | 08:27 | |
| -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d58-111-90-12.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 09:32 | |
| -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 09:58 | |
| kanzure | CD3WD's clone: http://www.humaninfo.org/project_details.html 'The equivalent knowledge of 16 full university degrees available at fingertips' | 10:00 |
| kanzure | 'An average university degree of four years requires integrating about 10.000 pages of information and knowledge. This HDL library 2.0 contains 160.000 pages, all accessible within seconds. This means the equivalent knowledge of about 16 full university degrees available at fingertips to any person.' | 10:00 |
| kanzure | This is a terrible idea: http://nzdl.sadl.uleth.ca/cgi-bin/library?a=p&p=about&c=mhl | 10:11 |
| kanzure | "Humanity Info Project" ... oh, but you must use our interface to the information | 10:11 |
| kanzure | http://www.unisdr.org/eng/public_aware/world_camp/2008-2009/wdrc-2008-2009.html International Strategy for Disaster Reduction | 10:14 |
| kanzure | Hm. | 10:14 |
| -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d58-111-90-12.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #hplusroadmap | 12:31 | |
| -!- kramer3d [n=kramer3d@ip98-169-184-165.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 13:12 | |
| kanzure | Hey kramer3d. | 13:13 |
| kanzure | Hi Vedestin. | 13:13 |
| kramer3d | hey kanzure whats up | 13:13 |
| kanzure | I'm going through some international organizations, seeing some things that might be relevant to SKDB. | 13:13 |
| Vedestin | hi kanzure | 13:14 |
| kanzure | http://www.isi.edu/~salemi/ self-reconfigurable robotics for space exploration | 13:51 |
| Vedestin | cool | 13:54 |
| -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@www.online.dn.ua] has joined #hplusroadmap | 13:57 | |
| -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p54B1B449.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #hplusroadmap | 14:04 | |
| kanzure | Hey amaruk. | 14:06 |
| -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p54B1B449.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 14:08 | |
| kanzure | It'd be nice if we could solve the browser problem. | 14:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_summ.jsp?pims_id=13346 | 14:54 |
| -!- kramer3d [n=kramer3d@unaffiliated/kramer3d] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 15:55 | |
| -!- kramer3d [n=kramer3d@ip98-169-184-165.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 15:57 | |
| kanzure | http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/novak/cgi/apserver.cgi automatic programming? | 16:20 |
| -!- kramer3d [n=kramer3d@unaffiliated/kramer3d] has quit [] | 17:37 | |
| -!- kramer3d [n=kramer3d@ip98-169-184-165.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:03 | |
| -!- kramer3d [n=kramer3d@unaffiliated/kramer3d] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 18:04 | |
| fenn | its so automatic i dont even have to run the program to get equivalent results! | 18:50 |
| kanzure | neat. | 18:50 |
| kanzure | hehe | 18:50 |
| kanzure | I think it means "intentional programming" | 18:50 |
| fenn | well, 0=0 | 18:50 |
| kanzure | also, isoc.org should be interested in our projects | 18:50 |
| kanzure | if not, I'm investigating the local manufacturing, uh, 'clubs' | 18:50 |
| kanzure | sanctioned by the uni | 18:50 |
| kanzure | also, to solve my browser problems | 18:51 |
| kanzure | I'm considering hacking konqueror | 18:51 |
| kanzure | I want to put it under the control of a messy perl script | 18:51 |
| fenn | check out dcop | 18:51 |
| fenn | run 'kdcop' | 18:51 |
| kanzure | and this script would be what I control/navigate-with --- it would track link following behavior, back/forward/next calls, and close/open windows on demand and do my 'tabbing' | 18:51 |
| kanzure | okay | 18:51 |
| kanzure | what is this ? | 18:52 |
| fenn | a list of methods callable through dcop | 18:52 |
| kanzure | direct api access ? | 18:52 |
| * kanzure runs off to eat | 18:53 | |
| -!- Biopunk [n=p@h194n2c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:53 | |
| fenn | i use this one all the time, mapped to ctrl-alt-l in icewm: http://fenn.freeshell.org/gnurds/newkonq.sh | 18:55 |
| fenn | its like hyperwords but less mouse-clicky | 18:56 |
| -!- wrldpc [n=ben@pool-71-174-89-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:57 | |
| wrldpc | Hello. | 18:57 |
| fenn | hi | 18:58 |
| fenn | what brings you to our humble channel? | 18:59 |
| kanzure | Hello wrldpc. | 19:04 |
| kanzure | fenn: so your script is partially what I'm looking for. | 19:05 |
| kanzure | I also want to interface with konq so that I get back/forward commands, stuff that's important to record like that | 19:05 |
| kanzure | I could do logging via a proxy gateway I guess | 19:05 |
| fenn | so you can record your 'path' and replay it? | 19:05 |
| kanzure | yes, and other things | 19:05 |
| kanzure | for example, my 300+ tabs in Opera from a few minutes ago | 19:05 |
| kanzure | was making this thing sound like a jet airplane | 19:05 |
| fenn | beeeeooooooowwwwpshshhhh | 19:06 |
| kanzure | so, I want to be able to do tabbing sessions without the agonizing ridiculousness | 19:06 |
| kanzure | nah, before takeoff | 19:06 |
| kanzure | I'm trying to come up with a good idea for an interface | 19:06 |
| kanzure | might just do bookmarking | 19:06 |
| fenn | it all comes back to graph visualization it seems | 19:07 |
| kanzure | right | 19:07 |
| kanzure | but in this case I'm thinking of a small list of 'tabs' | 19:07 |
| kanzure | this could be a page rendered by an app feeding off of my bookmarks db | 19:07 |
| kanzure | simple XBEL -> HTML rendering or something | 19:07 |
| kanzure | but it doesn't allow for easy tab manipulation like in Opera :-/ | 19:07 |
| fenn | never having used opera, i can't provide any meaningful insight on that | 19:08 |
| kanzure | oh, well | 19:08 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-05-24.png | 19:08 |
| fenn | so what, it's just a list with little icons next to them | 19:09 |
| fenn | easily done with frames | 19:09 |
| kanzure | it's not just a list though, it's drag/droppable too | 19:10 |
| kanzure | and a double click sends you to the tab | 19:10 |
| kanzure | yeah, it's that stupid -- all of them are in immediate mem | 19:10 |
| fenn | where do you drag them to? | 19:10 |
| kanzure | bookmark manager, for example | 19:10 |
| fenn | how is that useful? | 19:10 |
| kanzure | well, it's the only way I can bookmark in Opera | 19:10 |
| kanzure | without it crashing | 19:10 |
| kanzure | I guess this could all be replicated with a JS interface | 19:11 |
| kanzure | but frankly I'd like to avoid that. | 19:11 |
| fenn | so. user interface stuff is hard to explain | 19:11 |
| fenn | unless you have extensively studied HCI and know all the lingo | 19:11 |
| kanzure | well, what would an alternative interface be like | 19:12 |
| kanzure | still need a list of active tabs that you're working with, right? | 19:12 |
| fenn | well, for one thing it'd never lose any input to the system (like elephant) | 19:12 |
| kanzure | elephant? but yes. | 19:12 |
| fenn | should be able to make both hierarchical and tagged sorting representations | 19:12 |
| kanzure | should be able to scripthack the hell out of all of it | 19:13 |
| fenn | semantically and graphically zoomable | 19:13 |
| kanzure | eh? | 19:13 |
| fenn | 'preview' icons are just the beginning | 19:13 |
| fenn | but shrinking the rendered page down only goes so far.. everything ends up looking like white boxes with black text | 19:13 |
| kanzure | right | 19:14 |
| kanzure | back when I was using firefox I found this extension that was called 'webhistory' or something | 19:14 |
| fenn | so we have these 'favico.ico' or whatever - the little pics next to the bookmark | 19:14 |
| kanzure | it was sqlite + history + bookmarks + your browser trail session in one | 19:14 |
| kanzure | on the side of the screen | 19:14 |
| kanzure | the favico.ico doesn't matter much to me | 19:14 |
| kanzure | I just need a list that can facilitate my selection of pages to open up in a timely manner, really | 19:14 |
| kanzure | I don't care if it has to fetch it from disk | 19:15 |
| kanzure | as long as I get to play around with different strategies for managing it | 19:15 |
| fenn | well, with gigs of ram you shouldn't need to fetch it from disk :) | 19:15 |
| kanzure | you'd think so, but still | 19:15 |
| fenn | yes one would think so, but apparently the engineers at firefox have their own ideas | 19:15 |
| kanzure | I have 1 GB RAM and Opera still whines like a whore with +300 tabs | 19:15 |
| wrldpc | anyone know of a top secret tech project code named 'stonehenge' ? | 19:16 |
| fenn | hmm was that the druid mainframe? | 19:16 |
| wrldpc | heh | 19:16 |
| wrldpc | got it | 19:17 |
| wrldpc | Adobe's new CS4 | 19:17 |
| wrldpc | or CS 'whateva' | 19:17 |
| wrldpc | Bryan you are a legend in Boston :) | 19:18 |
| * fenn stares at wrldpc blankly | 19:18 | |
| kanzure | Am I? | 19:18 |
| kanzure | How's that? | 19:18 |
| fenn | adobe? wasnt that some proprietary software company from the nineties? | 19:18 |
| kanzure | fenn: no, it was a brick | 19:19 |
| fenn | oh, right, like superadobe | 19:19 |
| kanzure | used to make houses in the 0090s. | 19:19 |
| wrldpc | At the DIY Bio meet up your name wasn't mentioned but you were referenced positively as "some high school genius doing everything himself" | 19:19 |
| fenn | since obsolesced by compressed earth block | 19:19 |
| kanzure | Awesome. | 19:19 |
| kanzure | wrldpc: There's new updates to http://heybryan.org/ btw. | 19:20 |
| kanzure | fenn: so, uh, interface. here's a good way to decide: | 19:21 |
| kanzure | clicking required or no clicking? | 19:21 |
| fenn | response time under 0.1 sec | 19:21 |
| kanzure | this is mainly for the list of tabs | 19:21 |
| kanzure | of 'current workspace' (whatever you're browsing about) | 19:22 |
| kanzure | I think no clicking would be very nice | 19:22 |
| kanzure | only time you should click is when konqueror is brought up | 19:22 |
| kanzure | and you want to visit a link or something | 19:22 |
| fenn | actually konqueror has these 'access keys' if you tap ctrl, gives you a letter for each link | 19:22 |
| fenn | i never got the hang of it | 19:23 |
| kanzure | oh, so that's what that is | 19:24 |
| kanzure | hard to predict | 19:24 |
| kanzure | seems to miss a few links on my sie | 19:26 |
| fenn | i wonder how these humanitarian projects compare to wikipedia | 19:26 |
| kanzure | fenn: hm? | 19:27 |
| kanzure | the cd3wd projects? | 19:27 |
| kanzure | or places like WHO? | 19:27 |
| fenn | yes that and humaninfo.org | 19:27 |
| kanzure | hm | 19:27 |
| kanzure | well, they aren't wikis | 19:27 |
| kanzure | and they probably should be | 19:27 |
| kanzure | apparently it's just UN pamphlets dumped into a CD | 19:27 |
| fenn | they are just agglomerations of various organizations' attempts to write a how-to encyclopedia | 19:28 |
| kanzure | it's the UN ;-) | 19:28 |
| fenn | ffs they could at least try to make the format consistent | 19:28 |
| kanzure | making me download it from cnet is a stupid thing | 19:28 |
| kanzure | I was going through each of the individual pages and clicking 'download' | 19:28 |
| kanzure | so they suck. | 19:28 |
| fenn | sure that's just cluelessness | 19:29 |
| fenn | ideally there's be a torrent with all 16GB or whatever | 19:29 |
| kanzure | right | 19:29 |
| fenn | alex seems to come from a "commercial" programming background | 19:29 |
| kanzure | peculiar :) | 19:30 |
| fenn | buncha weirdoes :) | 19:30 |
| kanzure | assbackwards | 19:30 |
| fenn | no it makes perfect sense | 19:30 |
| fenn | in the usual assbackwards way | 19:30 |
| fenn | see, these relief organizations get a big chunk of money, they're like crap what do we do with this money! i know, we'll hire some consultants | 19:30 |
| kanzure | guy who makes profit decides to turn around and liberate 3rd world development info in his spare time? | 19:30 |
| kanzure | *steal steal steal* | 19:31 |
| fenn | so then they use the same techniques as huge corporations with constant cash flows | 19:31 |
| fenn | but they dont have a cash flow, they just have this big chunk at the beginning, then the data rots after that | 19:31 |
| fenn | the methodology requires constant input of paid effort (since there's the commit access problem, no redistribution/modification etc) | 19:32 |
| kanzure | maybe I don't need a list-view of tabs. just do a queue manager and go through it linearly. when done with a page, dump it in the bookmarks and write a few notes | 19:32 |
| fenn | now i see why you want back-links to project maintainers | 19:34 |
| fenn | i figured that it doesn't matter who the maintainer is, if all the documentation and source is there, and you have equal clout to modify and redistribute | 19:35 |
| kanzure | sure you do, but .. the S in skdb is important :) | 19:35 |
| fenn | S meaning social interaction? | 19:35 |
| kanzure | yeah, it's a good bet that the guys who were doing the code might have a better clue than you | 19:35 |
| kanzure | what did you realize about my wanting the backlinks anyway? | 19:36 |
| fenn | oh, well i was browsing archive.org on the NIST hexapod project, and i realized that they didnt just delete all the data on purpose, it was some guy got laid off and his pet projects bit-rotted | 19:36 |
| kanzure | oh, sure, that too | 19:37 |
| fenn | and nobody even knew about their existence so they disappeared | 19:37 |
| kanzure | I'm seeing a lot of organizations that *should* be very enthusiastic about skdb | 19:37 |
| kanzure | IRTF, IETF, ISOC, WFP, ILO, FAO, UNESCO, UNICEF, UNEP, WMO, UNDP, WHO, NIST, WTA, NSF, etc. | 19:38 |
| fenn | found this vrml model last night on archive.org (unfortunately not the pro-engineer files) http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/nist_hexapod.png | 19:38 |
| kanzure | heh, blender | 19:38 |
| kanzure | or is that you? | 19:39 |
| fenn | that's me importing vrml into blender | 19:39 |
| kanzure | ah, right, vrml model | 19:39 |
| fenn | its nice to finally see it in 3d thogh | 19:39 |
| kanzure | fenn: tell me why I need a visual list of tabs in my queue | 19:40 |
| kanzure | much less a list that I can jump around in | 19:40 |
| kanzure | do I really need that ? | 19:40 |
| kanzure | do you? | 19:40 |
| fenn | um, i'd like to "burn" a path through the desert and be able to look back on it | 19:40 |
| fenn | but i dont know how to turn that into a computer interface exactly | 19:40 |
| kanzure | path visualization can be done pretty easily, IMHO, at least as linear paths (retrospectively) | 19:41 |
| kanzure | for example, in your bookmarks you could say "show session-pathings" | 19:41 |
| kanzure | and then it would show what you were doing that got you to that page | 19:41 |
| fenn | not so much jump around, but pull something from a couple minutes ago back into view, relating it to the current set of things i'm paying attention to | 19:41 |
| kanzure | now, in cases where you didn't click to it (random insight to do a search versus being given a link), that's up to you - I guess you could always write down a few words, but I don't know any ML for that. | 19:41 |
| kanzure | hm | 19:42 |
| kanzure | yes, I do that too | 19:42 |
| kanzure | I also jump between pages a lot | 19:42 |
| kanzure | like when copying information in some stupid way | 19:42 |
| fenn | also would like to tag/annotate/score a numerical "interestingness level" and possibly auto-archive over a certain level | 19:42 |
| kanzure | sure | 19:43 |
| fenn | but i think the whole bookmark idea is fubared | 19:43 |
| kanzure | how's that? | 19:43 |
| fenn | its just a bunch of links | 19:43 |
| kanzure | oh, bookmarks-as-active-tabs ? | 19:43 |
| kanzure | yes | 19:43 |
| fenn | its supposed to be a memory augmentation system | 19:43 |
| kanzure | right? | 19:43 |
| kanzure | why can't it be links to local caches too? | 19:43 |
| fenn | like.. i'm thinking of some page, its mostly red and has something to do with 1959 ford's | 19:43 |
| fenn | can bookmarks do that? | 19:44 |
| kanzure | uh, are they designed to? | 19:44 |
| fenn | no fucking way | 19:44 |
| kanzure | I don't think that's the idea | 19:44 |
| fenn | its just a bunch of links | 19:44 |
| kanzure | it's not a memory augmentation system | 19:44 |
| kanzure | rather, | 19:44 |
| kanzure | it's like an skdb package ;-) | 19:44 |
| kanzure | these links can't really be intuited out of the divine void | 19:44 |
| kanzure | that's why we have to use search engines | 19:44 |
| kanzure | (and remember some particular servers, of course) | 19:44 |
| kanzure | screw URLs, just imagine as if they are IP addresses only | 19:45 |
| kanzure | because essentially the URLs are only for remembering | 19:45 |
| fenn | back in the early days before search engines, there were these 'phone books' that had basically a hierarchical organization of pages by topic | 19:45 |
| kanzure | but they are still essentially like IP addresses in that you can't really do the whole territory=map BS | 19:45 |
| kanzure | yeah | 19:45 |
| kanzure | but that's a MPOV thing | 19:45 |
| kanzure | and that sounds like hierarchical bookmarks to me :-/ | 19:45 |
| kanzure | the links were telephone numbers instead of hyperlinks | 19:46 |
| fenn | oh, not phone numbers, real hyperlinks | 19:46 |
| fenn | think gopher | 19:47 |
| kanzure | ? | 19:47 |
| fenn | anyway, you're right, that's no different from bookmarks | 19:47 |
| kanzure | I don't know what you want, | 19:47 |
| kanzure | this isn't my 'revolutionary web interface' stuff :) | 19:48 |
| kanzure | this is just me trying to get through the day | 19:48 |
| kanzure | IMHO, the next generation web interface will be my neurosci projects | 19:48 |
| kanzure | the ones that exploit the information otherwise trapped in your head | 19:48 |
| kanzure | ones where you can literally "import" information and so bookmarks are just a part of the underlying framework | 19:49 |
| fenn | well, i've always been more of a fan of wearables than implants.. considering a PC a wearable in this context | 19:50 |
| fenn | PC is an intelligence/memory/communication augmentation system no? | 19:50 |
| kanzure | in a limited sense, yeah of course | 19:51 |
| kanzure | I'm much more myself on a box than on paper, for example | 19:51 |
| Biopunk | I've been thinking along the lines of 3d mindmaps | 19:56 |
| kanzure | Eh? | 19:56 |
| kanzure | You mean the 'write everything down as a map' strategy? | 19:56 |
| Biopunk | for organizing large chunks of information in a way I can remember it | 19:56 |
| kanzure | Anything that requires you to write, sucks. | 19:56 |
| fenn | agreed | 19:56 |
| * Biopunk sucks | 19:57 | |
| kanzure | My brain compiler architecture is based off of the idea of auto-importing and integration of ideas, stimulation, and the automated processing of excess information. | 19:57 |
| kanzure | Haha. | 19:57 |
| kanzure | Biopunk: :) Don't take it that way. | 19:57 |
| Biopunk | sob | 19:57 |
| fenn | writing is about 100-1000 times slower than reading | 19:57 |
| kanzure | Biopunk: I would like to see a 3D mindmap anyway, especially if it had those fancy navigation controls like characters flying through simulations. | 19:57 |
| Biopunk | I meant for myself.. like to learn all the biology terminology | 19:57 |
| kanzure | plus colors and fields of colors or something, I'm sure somebody's tried that out with fogs and so on | 19:57 |
| kanzure | ah. | 19:57 |
| fenn | mnemosyne? supermemo? | 19:58 |
| kanzure | all of the bio terminology? that would overload supermemo | 19:58 |
| kanzure | I mean, you could do it, if you could spend 14 hours a day | 19:58 |
| Biopunk | i want fog | 19:58 |
| fenn | even a hierarchical menu is faster than trying to fly through some VR environment | 19:59 |
| Biopunk | i have been thinking about weather it would work... it adds the spacial tag to info... and level | 19:59 |
| kanzure | while true, the supermemo strategy of repetitious and so on ... it's hard to download 20,000 terms into your head that way | 19:59 |
| kanzure | I was spending way too much time with the tagging problem and writing questions / new content into the db | 19:59 |
| kanzure | importing it all at once would have been nice, but | 19:59 |
| Biopunk | maybe not if it's well organized | 19:59 |
| kanzure | but ideally you're writing the content that you throw into it because that's how you're encoding it | 19:59 |
| fenn | yeah supermemo doesn't give you a holistic view of things, which you need (at least initially) to build up a sense of what those definitions really _mean_ | 19:59 |
| kanzure | no, trust me, organization only makes it worse | 20:00 |
| kanzure | you need 'organization' (analysis) in terms of _processes_, not objects/hierarchies | 20:00 |
| Biopunk | mm... i kinda think it's vital | 20:00 |
| kanzure | how's that tree of life working out for ya | 20:00 |
| kanzure | hehe :) | 20:00 |
| Biopunk | ? the game? | 20:01 |
| kanzure | there's a game? | 20:01 |
| kanzure | that only complicates the issue | 20:01 |
| fenn | Biopunk: kanzure was referring to the observer bias in taxonomy | 20:01 |
| Biopunk | i was seeing some tree representation of the life game .. 'game of life'? | 20:01 |
| kanzure | and, the taxonomical problems of there being multiple ways to approach a subject | 20:01 |
| fenn | biologists have "solved" this problem by declaring "wah! i'm more senior than you! deal with it" | 20:02 |
| Biopunk | yeah.. but i was talking about info that's alrady organized.. as names in biology | 20:02 |
| kanzure | interesting solution, fenn | 20:02 |
| kanzure | too bad it sucks. | 20:02 |
| kanzure | I like that word today, apparently. | 20:03 |
| kanzure | re: jumping around / going back to something from a few minutes ago (using active attention as opposed to whatever script for tab-queue-processing you wrote earlier) | 20:04 |
| kanzure | what if you could have a log viewer for one monitor? | 20:04 |
| kanzure | I don't know if I like that implementation though | 20:04 |
| kanzure | something like that | 20:04 |
| Biopunk | fenn: you have a point with the 'organize along the process' though | 20:05 |
| Biopunk | t | 20:05 |
| fenn | i do? | 20:05 |
| Biopunk | you mean info has to be attached to a backbone | 20:06 |
| fenn | no, there is no backbone | 20:06 |
| Biopunk | hehehehe | 20:06 |
| fenn | your brain works by relating lots of different blobs of information | 20:06 |
| Biopunk | ok | 20:06 |
| fenn | its not a hierarchical tree with one root | 20:06 |
| fenn | this is why you can never get to the 'final' definition in a dictionary | 20:07 |
| Biopunk | i called your process backbone i think.. cause thigs are attaced to it.. bad word maybe | 20:07 |
| fenn | i dont understand kanzure's insistence on organization around processes - its just another type of bias imho | 20:08 |
| fenn | some languages like inuit? use process as a basic unit of communication | 20:08 |
| fenn | instead of nouns | 20:08 |
| fenn | or haskell vs java, this argument's been thoroughly flogged | 20:08 |
| Biopunk | do the inuits build nuclear subs? | 20:09 |
| fenn | are you saying nuclear subs are a good thing? :) | 20:09 |
| Biopunk | it's better to have them than not to | 20:09 |
| fenn | why is that? | 20:09 |
| Biopunk | mutual assured destruction? | 20:09 |
| fenn | yes, so any of our petty squabbles can result in destroying the entire planet, great | 20:10 |
| fenn | Biopunk: you're a poor representative for whitey | 20:10 |
| Biopunk | ... it takes som organized effort to build them enyway.. so i used them as an example | 20:10 |
| Biopunk | for 'the man' maybe | 20:11 |
| fenn | honestly i dont know much about the inuit.. i'm sure it takes a lot of community organization to live in the arctic wilderness | 20:11 |
| fenn | the point is almost moot. look at the lojban effort - people can't change their own bias even if they try | 20:12 |
| Biopunk | i'm a bit sceptical of putting indigenous people on pedistals | 20:12 |
| fenn | well. i'm a bit sceptical of putting invaders on pedestals | 20:13 |
| Biopunk | ok... indigenous cultures then | 20:13 |
| fenn | same diff | 20:13 |
| fenn | unfortunately they're all dead so there's nobody to argue for their way of life | 20:14 |
| fenn | or demonstrate it | 20:14 |
| fenn | so i might as well be talking about how cool babylonianism is | 20:14 |
| Biopunk | did their culture produce space flight and western medecine? | 20:15 |
| fenn | well, fwiw space flight and 'western' medicine came out of nazi germany | 20:15 |
| fenn | and with that, the thread has reached its natural conclusion :) | 20:16 |
| fenn | nice talkin to ya | 20:16 |
| Biopunk | there is a name for that somewhere... when the discussion ends with one calling the other a nazi i think? hehehe | 20:17 |
| fenn | godwin's law | 20:17 |
| Biopunk | ah ;) | 20:17 |
| Biopunk | just heard about it maybe a year ago | 20:18 |
| kanzure | Biopunk: It was I who was bringing up the 'backbone' process architecture stuff. | 20:24 |
| kanzure | fenn: it's not just another type of bias :) process is where you have something that is actually *doing it*, whereas objects are just static and stale | 20:24 |
| kanzure | re: effort to build submarines; a man in his backyard has built a nuclear submarine, IIRC. | 20:25 |
| kanzure | however, the idea was to have it swim, so that didn't quite work out | 20:25 |
| kanzure | my mom wants me to digg through trash | 20:25 |
| kanzure | why is she here? | 20:25 |
| Biopunk | kanzure: (yeah, I see that now) | 20:26 |
| Biopunk | kanzure.. is this cannel logged by krebs? | 20:26 |
| fenn | krebs is some bot that epitron left here | 20:27 |
| Biopunk | so noone knows? | 20:27 |
| fenn | i keep logs fwiw, they are not published anywhere | 20:28 |
| Biopunk | thanks.. i like that | 20:28 |
| Biopunk | there is some humor in 'krebs is some bot that epitron left here' ;) | 20:29 |
| * Biopunk examines krebs | 20:30 | |
| Biopunk | !help | 20:31 |
| krebs | help topics: 6 core modules: auth, basics, config, httputil, remote, userdata; 73 plugins: alias, autoop, autorejoin, azgame, babel, bans, bash, cal, chanserv, chucknorris, debug, deepthoughts, delicious, dice, dict, digg, dns, eightball, excuse, factoids, figlet, forecast, fortune, freshmeat, grouphug, hl2, host, imdb, insult, iplookup, karma, keywords, lart, lastfm, linkbot, markov, math, modes, nickserv, q, quiz, quote, reaction, realm, remind, | 20:31 |
| krebs | remotectl, ri, roshambo, rot, roulette, rss, salut, script, search, seen, shiritori, shortenurls, slashdot, spell, theyfightcrime, threat, time, topic, translator, tube, twitter, unicode, urban, url, usermodes, weather, wheeloffortune, wserver (help <topic> for more info) | 20:31 |
| fenn | speaking of logs, i'm looking over some logs where kanzure is asking about a metalworking ontology; dmess answers 'its called the machinists handbook' which is true | 20:31 |
| fenn | unfortunately it's 400MB: http://fennetic.net/pub/ebooks/bookwarez/machinerys-handbook-26.tar | 20:32 |
| fenn | i wonder if that's accessible from outside | 20:33 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machinery's_Handbook | 20:35 |
| Biopunk | help basics | 20:37 |
| Biopunk | krebs help basics | 20:37 |
| krebs | basics: quit, restart, join, part, hide, save, nick, say, action, topic, quiet, talk, ping, mode | 20:37 |
| wrldpc | uh | 20:37 |
| fenn | Because the information in the Handbook was so varied, little attempt was made to arrange it by subject matter. It was thought sufficient to include an extensive index of over 30 pages, with more than 4500 references, from which the location of any subject in the Handbook could quickly be found. | 20:37 |
| kanzure | fenn: downloading to data server :) | 20:38 |
| fenn | hmm there is a 34MB torrent, i wonder what the diff is | 20:40 |
| kanzure | plaintext hopefully? | 20:40 |
| fenn | there are seriously a lot of diagrams | 20:42 |
| fenn | and tables and charts | 20:42 |
| Biopunk | *.djv compression? | 20:44 |
| -!- wrldpc [n=ben@pool-71-174-89-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] | 20:46 | |
| -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] | 20:47 | |
| kanzure | hm, djvu is just a pdf equiv IIRC | 20:47 |
| fenn | djv just has a bunch of little pictures for each letter instead of letters | 20:49 |
| -!- krebs_ [n=krebs@208.106.116.196] has joined #hplusroadmap | 20:50 | |
| Biopunk | from what i've seen it gives a really good compression for documents like charts | 20:50 |
| -!- krebs [n=krebs@208.106.116.196] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 20:51 | |
| kanzure | so again, re: jumping around to what you were working on a few moments ago, seeing the whole view of 'working mem' | 21:15 |
| kanzure | that's a general problem when making anything and zooming etc. | 21:15 |
| kanzure | when you make a giant complex system, how do you identify the components that contribute to 'emergent' behavior anyway ? | 21:15 |
| kanzure | I mean, when you 'make' something, just dropping a file in a folder doesn't do much | 21:15 |
| kanzure | except allow you to forget about it except in as much as you consider the whole dir | 21:15 |
| kanzure | as one single 'dir-file' | 21:16 |
| fenn | yeah the whole 7 working items thing | 21:16 |
| fenn | dmess (an air-force manufacturing contractor) claims the v-22 osprey has cost 200 billion in development - that's 10 years of NASA budget! | 21:20 |
| kanzure | and supposedly the X43A cost a few billion too | 21:22 |
| kanzure | why'd it cost that much to develop | 21:23 |
| kanzure | I want to see a budget report | 21:23 |
| kanzure | of the v-22 | 21:24 |
| fenn | dunno, wiki says $20 billion but he claims it's actually $200B | 21:25 |
| fenn | political pork gone mad | 21:26 |
| kanzure | I don't understand how it's $200B | 21:30 |
| fenn | me either | 21:30 |
| fenn | another open hardware machine tool project - watch this space: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.eafit.edu.co%2Fwiki%2Findex.php%2FHerramientas_de_Manufactura_Dise%C3%B1o_Abierto&sl=es&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 | 21:31 |
| fenn | we should contact mfg.com labs | 21:31 |
| kanzure | ' Joint Project with MFG.com' | 21:31 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:31 |
| kanzure | http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://www.mfgquote.com/about-mfg-management-team.cfm | 21:32 |
| fenn | i dunno about their management but some "researchers" have posted to the emc list about open hardware, and are quite enthusiastic | 21:33 |
| fenn | oh it was jorge barrera | 21:35 |
| kanzure | good | 21:35 |
| kanzure | I was going through ~50 tabs today on these topics | 21:35 |
| kanzure | had mfg.com or whatever there | 21:35 |
| kanzure | didn't get to it | 21:35 |
| kanzure | opera kept on crashing | 21:35 |
| fenn | does it preserve your tabs like firefox/konqueror do? | 21:36 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:36 |
| kanzure | opens/renders faster than both too | 21:36 |
| kanzure | even with 400 tabs open, once you convince it to actually open a page it does it pretty quickly | 21:37 |
| kanzure | but there are ... rules. | 21:37 |
| kanzure | for example, at 200+ tabs, if you just opened up a page in the background, opening up another one would mean right-click and *immediately* go to open in background tab, if you don't do this then it will freeze with your mouse there selecting the option | 21:37 |
| kanzure | or you can wait until the other tab is fully loaded | 21:38 |
| kanzure | that sort of thing | 21:38 |
| kanzure | it's kind of like teetering on an edge | 21:38 |
| kanzure | I feel like that a lot with tech and gamehacking sometimes | 21:38 |
| kanzure | it's retarded and shouldn't happen | 21:38 |
| fenn | i think you're pushing it beyond the design point | 21:38 |
| kanzure | oh, definitely | 21:38 |
| kanzure | I've heard some Opera developers gasp in horror | 21:38 |
| kanzure | I had to send in my old bookmarks file for their review | 21:39 |
| kanzure | because Opera fscked up a write | 21:39 |
| kanzure | I was hoping it was just a bitshift or something | 21:39 |
| kanzure | but they never did get back to me ... | 21:39 |
| Vedestin | why did you have 200 tabs open? | 21:39 |
| fenn | dunno if you're interested, but apparently kazehakase is hot shit | 21:40 |
| kanzure | but it uses gecko | 21:41 |
| kanzure | aka it's firefox | 21:41 |
| fenn | says you can switch to dillo/w3m | 21:41 |
| Vedestin | do you use mouse gestures? | 21:42 |
| Vedestin | i find them irritating | 21:42 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines | 21:42 |
| kanzure | I don't use gestures | 21:42 |
| Vedestin | good | 21:43 |
| Vedestin | gesture people are weird | 21:43 |
| fenn | also GTKhtml and webkit, whatever those are | 21:43 |
| Vedestin | i might go get a hard drive | 21:44 |
| fenn | oh wait, those are planned, nevermind | 21:44 |
| kanzure | hm? | 21:44 |
| kanzure | planned? | 21:44 |
| kanzure | ah, planned implementations | 21:44 |
| kanzure | nevemrind | 21:44 |
| kanzure | I've tried playing with gtkhtml and webkit before | 21:46 |
| kanzure | I don't remember what my results were | 21:46 |
| kanzure | webkit > khtml, seems to be the consensus | 21:47 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GtkHTML <-- a fork of khtml | 21:47 |
| kanzure | http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2007/07/23/the-unforking-of-kdes-khtml-and-webkit | 21:49 |
| kanzure | I dunno, I always sort of dislike the differences between renderings between khtml v. pandora (Opera's engine) for example | 21:51 |
| kanzure | it's just hard to get used to, it's almost like khtml is ignoring some stuff | 21:51 |
| kanzure | apple webkit always looks like it's never readable at all | 21:51 |
| -!- kramer3d [n=kramer3d@ip98-169-184-165.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 21:53 | |
| -!- krebs_ [n=krebs@208.106.116.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 21:54 | |
| kanzure | fenn: I got it :) | 23:04 |
| kanzure | how about a tab list much like ALT+TAB | 23:04 |
| kanzure | it'd be a hack to konqueror, and it'd just access a list from a flatfile somewhere or something | 23:04 |
| kanzure | and then everything else is controlled by the underlying perl/shell script on a terminal shell | 23:04 |
| fenn | doesnt seem practical for 200+ tabs | 23:04 |
| * fenn still stuck in revolutionary web-interface mode | 23:06 | |
| fenn | you need a ... tab manager! | 23:07 |
| kanzure | hrm | 23:07 |
| fenn | like a window manager, but instead of using the perfectly good window managers out there, we stick all the windows in the same window! | 23:07 |
| fenn | snark | 23:07 |
| fenn | i mean, um, narf | 23:08 |
| kanzure | fenn: have you seen screenshots of my, uh, screen? | 23:08 |
| kanzure | What are we going to do tonight, Brain? | 23:08 |
| fenn | what are we going to do tonight, Bryan? | 23:08 |
| kanzure | The same thing we do every night, Ben. | 23:08 |
| kanzure | Try to take over the world. :) | 23:08 |
| kanzure | The pinky and the brain, the pinky and the brain, one is a genius, the other is insane, | 23:09 |
| kanzure | hehe :) | 23:09 |
| * fenn is still trying to figure out which one he is | 23:09 | |
| kanzure | batfucking insane | 23:09 |
| kanzure | maybe not | 23:09 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-05-24_2.png | 23:09 |
| kanzure | so, that's with only, what, 33 tabs displayed there | 23:10 |
| kanzure | Opera does better density *and* a better scrollbar | 23:10 |
| kanzure | this sucks :( | 23:10 |
| fenn | i dont see any tabs? or do you mean tabs for the irc? | 23:10 |
| kanzure | uh, windows to the left ? | 23:11 |
| fenn | or do you mean the kde window manager? | 23:11 |
| kanzure | you mentioned window managers | 23:11 |
| kanzure | yes | 23:11 |
| fenn | yeah, agreed kde's wm stinks | 23:11 |
| fenn | i mean, it's ok, and much better than windows, but not "high performance" | 23:11 |
| kanzure | personally windows has always been faster, but the hackability sucks immensely (zero) | 23:12 |
| kanzure | just switching between two windows with alt+tab on kde sucks | 23:12 |
| fenn | i guess i use the favico's because thats what happens in icewm when you've opened lots of windows | 23:13 |
| fenn | then mouse-over or alt-tab will show the full title | 23:13 |
| fenn | but the killer missing feature from kde is you can't ctl-alt-# to go to a specific desktop | 23:14 |
| kanzure | this sucks. | 23:15 |
| kanzure | so... | 23:17 |
| fenn | heh you could try twm | 23:18 |
| fenn | or a traditional unix-style 'collapse to icon' paradigm | 23:19 |
| fenn | s/a/any/ | 23:19 |
| fenn | the icons stack up on your desktop like tetris blocks | 23:19 |
| kanzure | I need text | 23:19 |
| kanzure | those might as well be .lnk files | 23:19 |
| fenn | sure you can do text too, at least for some things | 23:19 |
| kanzure | which is the whole idea of flat file bookmarking | 23:19 |
| kanzure | so what happens when I have 12,000 bookmark files on my desktop | 23:20 |
| kanzure | eh? | 23:20 |
| fenn | no, not like that.. hmm how to explain the difference | 23:20 |
| fenn | in say KDE when you save a page as .lnk it goes to a file, and the file is represented by an icon on the desktop | 23:20 |
| fenn | in twm when you click 'minimize' on a window, it is represented as an icon (or text) on the desktop | 23:20 |
| kanzure | right | 23:21 |
| fenn | when you click on the minimized window it pops back up | 23:21 |
| kanzure | I remember that. | 23:21 |
| fenn | so these arent bookmarks, they're just windows that you're getting out of the way | 23:21 |
| kanzure | it might as well be a bookmark to a program state | 23:21 |
| kanzure | it's also a different implementation | 23:21 |
| kanzure | than files being displayed on the desktop | 23:21 |
| kanzure | I know that, but it might as well just do a write too at the same time, or load up a collection of bookmarks as tabs in that sense | 23:21 |
| fenn | well, you dont want to bookmark every site you visit do you? | 23:22 |
| * kanzure ponders | 23:22 | |
| kanzure | if I don't want to bookmark it, I'll probably just close out of it anyway | 23:22 |
| fenn | ponder the difference between history and bookmark | 23:22 |
| kanzure | it should be stored in the history logs anyway | 23:22 |
| fenn | yes one might hope that, but my experience is browsers delete your history after a certain period of time or they explode | 23:23 |
| kanzure | so what | 23:23 |
| kanzure | we can write an encapsulating script | 23:23 |
| kanzure | for example, I've had 1000k webhits, it's all in my apache logs | 23:24 |
| kanzure | that's +200 MB of logs | 23:24 |
| kanzure | I've barely browsed that many websites methinks. | 23:24 |
| kanzure | so it's not much to deal with. | 23:24 |
| kanzure | as long as the logs are, uh, separated btw, none of this "all in one file" BS | 23:24 |
| fenn | you could do logrotate | 23:24 |
| fenn | i forget what the problem is now | 23:25 |
| fenn | opera too slow? | 23:25 |
| fenn | http://fluxbox.sourceforge.net/docbook/en/html/chap-tabs.html | 23:27 |
| kanzure | opera whines like a beast | 23:32 |
| kanzure | and then crashes when you start to do more tabs | 23:32 |
| kanzure | also, it can't bookmark anymore, unless I do it manually | 23:32 |
| Vedestin | do you like music kanzure? | 23:37 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: sure | 23:38 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/music2/ | 23:38 |
| kanzure | fenn: can we save a tabbing session and convert it into bookmarks | 23:39 |
| kanzure | if this isn't scriptably viable then it's just as useless | 23:39 |
| fenn | 'save a tabbing session' is basically browser history | 23:40 |
| kanzure | no, in fluxbox | 23:40 |
| kanzure | you have your working memory, | 23:40 |
| kanzure | which is different from history | 23:41 |
| kanzure | history is everything | 23:41 |
| kanzure | working memory is task-oriented | 23:41 |
| kanzure | (or can be grouped off into task-orientation) | 23:41 |
| kanzure | uh | 23:41 |
| kanzure | separate "no, in fluxbox" from the next message after that | 23:41 |
| fenn | if you're using konqueror you can just go through all open konq processes and do some dcop call to get the url | 23:43 |
| kanzure | maybe the idea of working memory and random browsing sucks | 23:43 |
| Vedestin | weird mix kanzure | 23:43 |
| kanzure | I doubt it though | 23:43 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: yeah, it's true. | 23:43 |
| kanzure | fenn: hm, okay | 23:43 |
| fenn | that's window manager independent | 23:44 |
| kanzure | also, I need a way to spawn a program call when closing konqueror | 23:44 |
| kanzure | a 'bookmarking hook' | 23:44 |
| fenn | hmm i'm not that kde-savvy | 23:44 |
| kanzure | the logger is just some proxy | 23:44 |
| kanzure | oh, I guess I could recompile konqueror | 23:44 |
| fenn | i mean there's probably already some way to do it | 23:44 |
| fenn | i dont think doing anything on program call is the right way to do it. instead you'd have some journalling system so things are preserved after a crash | 23:47 |
| fenn | duh. s/program call/program close/ | 23:47 |
| kanzure | mmhmm | 23:48 |
| kanzure | yes | 23:48 |
| kanzure | but at the same time there needs to be hooks for opening up new links easily | 23:48 |
| kanzure | so opening a link should be done via calling an external script | 23:48 |
| kanzure | surely *that* can be done | 23:48 |
| kanzure | maybe I'll just split up konqueror into some shell scripts and perl scripts and see how it goes from there | 23:59 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
