| --- Day changed Fri May 30 2008 | ||
| kanzure | people? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| ybit | goodnight friends | 00:16 |
| * ybit will be up early reading more on these topics :) | 00:16 | |
| fenn | they sell 'merchandise' which seems so narrow and limited there must be some kind of kickback | 00:24 |
| fenn | also lots of 'membership' stuff and 'donate now' buttons | 00:25 |
| fenn | if they're a 501c3 i think they have to publish where the money comes from | 00:26 |
| fenn | '(c) Extension of human-level rights protections to great apes.' | 00:28 |
| fenn | hmmmmm...mm.. | 00:28 |
| fenn | slippery sloppy slope | 00:29 |
| fenn | Arrange letter-writing, protests, and boycotts of especially offensive films, television programs and books. | 00:30 |
| fenn | YES i want to DONATE NOW!!! | 00:30 |
| fenn | personally i think "I, Robot" did more to advance transhumanism than transhumanism.org ever did | 00:31 |
| Phreedom | lol | 00:32 |
| kanzure | or Iron Man | 00:32 |
| kanzure | unless you mean the book | 00:32 |
| kanzure | oh shit. | 00:32 |
| * kanzure loses one geek point | 00:32 | |
| fenn | no i meant the movie | 00:33 |
| kanzure | I went to James Clement, the executive director of WTA, and said that SKDB/OSCOMAK/etc. is the missing puzzle piece to transhumanism.org | 00:33 |
| fenn | i wonder what they consider to be offensive films tv and books | 00:34 |
| kanzure | he wants to get transhumanism.org actually *doing* something, but he seems reluctant to push it | 00:34 |
| kanzure | he says "oh, but it needs money, so we need to do rebranding ... so we've hired a firm to do it for us" | 00:34 |
| kanzure | but the whole point is that it *doesn't* require that much money | 00:34 |
| kanzure | kfjdlafjkalkdjf | 00:34 |
| kanzure | grumble | 00:34 |
| fenn | uh.. kanzure did you just sell us out to offshore coders? | 00:34 |
| fenn | oh he's the webcam guy | 00:35 |
| kanzure | huh? | 00:35 |
| fenn | on imminst.org | 00:35 |
| kanzure | I don't know what you're talking about. | 00:36 |
| fenn | nevermind | 00:36 |
| fenn | quite frankly the 'so weve hired a firm to do it for us' scares the shit out of me | 00:37 |
| kanzure | yes | 00:38 |
| kanzure | me too | 00:38 |
| kanzure | I'm thinking of doing a hostile takeover | 00:38 |
| fenn | i dont know what that is supposed to mean | 00:38 |
| kanzure | these guys are supposed to be asserting themselves at the front of human technological development | 00:38 |
| kanzure | and it's a total failure | 00:38 |
| kanzure | so why not get hostile, move in, set up camp, call the organization a quack, and steal some thunder (the funding thunder, really, there's not much else) | 00:39 |
| kanzure | well, there's also the "meme territory" to claim | 00:39 |
| Vedestin | wouldn't the funding be intrinsically linked to the individuals rather than the organisation itself | 00:40 |
| kanzure | the organization is not funding itself. | 00:40 |
| Vedestin | people don't just throw money at an organisation because of the name | 00:41 |
| Vedestin | not big money anyawy | 00:41 |
| kanzure | well, they do there apparently | 00:41 |
| kanzure | because holy shit ;-) | 00:41 |
| kanzure | I should be rolling in dough. | 00:41 |
| Vedestin | ok, do it | 00:42 |
| Vedestin | but i'm telling you, blazing in to the scene half cocked is a sure way to lose the respect of venture capitalists and donators | 00:42 |
| Phreedom | Vedestin: sometimes they do | 00:42 |
| fenn | http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/outage08/ | 00:42 |
| Phreedom | Vedestin: the trouble is that I never found any :) and always end up funding my activities myself | 00:43 |
| kanzure | yep :) | 00:43 |
| kanzure | it's all diy anyway in the end | 00:43 |
| kanzure | so the fact that they went out to another firm, as fenn says, scares the shit out of me | 00:44 |
| kanzure | they're about self-transformation, not "let others transform you for you" | 00:44 |
| kanzure | Hrm. | 00:44 |
| fenn | and did he ever say "hey, looks like you need some help with your image, maybe we can help, lets talk"? no, its "thats a good idea, *yoink* and fuck you" | 00:45 |
| kanzure | wait, what? | 00:45 |
| fenn | are they going to help us? seriously, what do you think | 00:46 |
| kanzure | I think it's all of them, it's not just one guy screwing it all up | 00:46 |
| kanzure | at the moment the prospects are slim | 00:46 |
| kanzure | even though ideologically they *claim* they are on the ball | 00:46 |
| kanzure | they don't measure up | 00:46 |
| fenn | i dont think they have enough technical savvy to even explain what we're on about | 00:47 |
| fenn | sigh.. anyway | 00:47 |
| kanzure | so, do we want to do anything about that? | 00:47 |
| kanzure | probably not - it might be more of a distraction in getting our projects rolling | 00:48 |
| kanzure | but at the same time, it seems that 'networking' is the large problem at the moment | 00:48 |
| fenn | i dunno, if they want to play fair and work *together* then it might be beneficial for us to have some kind of "legitimate" backing | 00:48 |
| Vedestin | why don't you just do honours projects | 00:48 |
| fenn | where legitimacy is based on how bland and groomed your website looks | 00:48 |
| kanzure | so it's definitely legitimacy that we're working on? | 00:49 |
| fenn | and calling yourself 'world transhumanist association' hah | 00:49 |
| kanzure | because we could come up with a spiffy website if we really had to | 00:49 |
| fenn | no, its a technical project, but often its easier to convince coders to volunteer for something 'real' than just a pile of junk in some guy's garage | 00:49 |
| kanzure | but I'm not sure if that would get us some of the bootstrapping funding we need (or bootstrapping junk/parts) | 00:49 |
| kanzure | heh :) | 00:49 |
| fenn | i'm falling for it myself, tearing my hair out over gershenfield | 00:50 |
| kanzure | has he replied? | 00:50 |
| fenn | no | 00:50 |
| kanzure | so basically we're the only ones playing fair | 00:50 |
| fenn | i think *.edu has a massive spam filter that blocks fenn@* | 00:50 |
| fenn | excluding my parents, i've NEVER received a reply from any professor on any subject | 00:51 |
| kanzure | so basically we're the only ones playing fair | 00:51 |
| fenn | like wtf are they doing, whacking off in their office all day? | 00:51 |
| Vedestin | yeah, probably | 00:52 |
| Vedestin | or out there doing fund raising gigs all day | 00:52 |
| Vedestin | like greenpeace | 00:52 |
| Vedestin | do you know how much money greenpeace spend on fundraising a year? | 00:52 |
| fenn | greenpeace has this cool boat that they heckle other boats with though | 00:52 |
| Vedestin | so? these guys have a cool website that they look all sauve and tech with | 00:52 |
| Vedestin | make you us look like dorks | 00:53 |
| Vedestin | you us, lol | 00:53 |
| Vedestin | can you tell i didn't sleep last night> | 00:53 |
| Vedestin | not hardly | 00:53 |
| fenn | we dorks, slept deprivationed legion | 00:53 |
| fenn | nobody ever said free-running-sleep was socially acceptable | 00:53 |
| fenn | honestly kanzure i never liked the word 'transhuman' it just sounded like some froofery | 00:54 |
| fenn | intelligence augmentation, sure; physical augmentation, neato | 00:55 |
| fenn | 'cybernetic' is played out | 00:55 |
| Vedestin | can't we just call it terminator | 00:56 |
| Vedestin | i mean really, that's what we're talking about | 00:56 |
| fenn | i like to mean what i say and say what i mean, and 'transhuman' doesnt really mean anything (especially since we cant even define intelligence) | 00:56 |
| fenn | i'm not talking about a terminator | 00:56 |
| Vedestin | fine then | 00:57 |
| fenn | USA is already spending $500 billion/yr on that shit | 00:57 |
| Vedestin | when i get buttloads of funding you can't have any of it | 00:57 |
| fenn | fine then | 00:57 |
| * Vedestin goes back in time to find jahn caahnaa | 00:57 | |
| * fenn goes forwards in time to find john titor | 00:57 | |
| kanzure | John Titor, heh, is that the usenet future guy? | 00:57 |
| Vedestin | what? john titor is alive now | 00:57 |
| kanzure | re: not using the word transhuman, | 00:57 |
| kanzure | do we need to use any word at all? | 00:57 |
| Vedestin | he lives in florida | 00:58 |
| kanzure | nah, we don't need a word | 00:58 |
| kanzure | but at the same time, 'word compression' is just something I tend to do naturally | 00:58 |
| fenn | i always get more excited when i see someone saying things i agree with | 00:58 |
| kanzure | so that I can start to refer to certain things via acronyms or shortened versions | 00:59 |
| fenn | jargon-- legion | 00:59 |
| fenn | we are verbose! jargon-- unite! | 00:59 |
| Vedestin | ohh | 00:59 |
| Vedestin | kanzure | 00:59 |
| kanzure | hrm | 00:59 |
| Vedestin | do you know of anyone who's working out a way to quantify learning | 01:00 |
| kanzure | fenn: but how verbose do we have to be? | 01:00 |
| kanzure | I mean, I've had a terrible time doing this | 01:00 |
| kanzure | writing it all out and so on | 01:00 |
| kanzure | there's just too much to cover | 01:00 |
| Vedestin | like, who's actually developing a real mathematical tool to measure how much someone has learned | 01:00 |
| fenn | like # of university degrees? | 01:00 |
| kanzure | F/OSS, GNU, manufacturing and its love affair with money, scarcity, post/pre-scarcity, gift economies, SKDB architecture, python, pyyaml, rdf, semantic web nonsense, wikis, ... | 01:00 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: Hm. | 01:00 |
| kanzure | That's pretty hard. | 01:01 |
| Vedestin | i'm thinking so that you can compare experimental data for nootropics and such fenn | 01:01 |
| Vedestin | yeah, it's really hard | 01:01 |
| fenn | ah i see | 01:01 |
| kanzure | I don't know of anybody actually doing it. But I know of SuperMemo and the like, but that's just software. | 01:01 |
| kanzure | yeah | 01:01 |
| fenn | not all nootropics are about learning | 01:01 |
| kanzure | that's what the organotypical experiments are for | 01:01 |
| Vedestin | supermemo is flashcards | 01:01 |
| Vedestin | no, they arent | 01:01 |
| Vedestin | nootropics or experimental techniques, that sort of thing fenn | 01:01 |
| fenn | can't you just use intelligence tests? | 01:02 |
| Vedestin | i'm not sure | 01:02 |
| Vedestin | there needs to be some way to index them | 01:02 |
| fenn | i'm no psychologist but i know there are different tests for measuring different aspects of intelligence (learning, pattern recognition, memory etc) | 01:02 |
| Vedestin | this answer won't come from a psychologist | 01:02 |
| fenn | why not? | 01:02 |
| Vedestin | they don't know enough math | 01:02 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Neuropods | 01:02 |
| kanzure | uh? | 01:02 |
| kanzure | why do you think I'm doing it ? | 01:02 |
| kanzure | it's to automate the selection process via GAs | 01:02 |
| kanzure | so that these neurotissue slices can be built from 'rules' for learning | 01:02 |
| kanzure | and then we can quantify this by whether or not they are able to solve problems | 01:02 |
| kanzure | not solving == death | 01:02 |
| kanzure | very easy to see the winners | 01:03 |
| kanzure | woah, did you guys get any of my messages? from "uh" to "very easy" ? | 01:03 |
| Vedestin | yes | 01:03 |
| Vedestin | all at once | 01:03 |
| kanzure | I got the opposite - your messages all at once | 01:03 |
| Vedestin | it's called lag | 01:03 |
| fenn | yay irc! | 01:03 |
| kanzure | "intelligence tests" <- the suck | 01:03 |
| Vedestin | yeah, you need a common index | 01:03 |
| kanzure | no | 01:03 |
| kanzure | you need to not suck | 01:03 |
| fenn | intelligence tests just arent sensitive enough | 01:04 |
| Vedestin | so that you don't have to compare methodology in each new paper you read about how effective a technique or drug or treatment is in learning | 01:04 |
| kanzure | I don't know what a "test" for intelligence would be anway | 01:04 |
| kanzure | since we can't definite intelligence. | 01:04 |
| Vedestin | intelligence has nothing to do with learning | 01:04 |
| kanzure | right, I definitely agree that there needs to be integration in that sense, Vedestin | 01:04 |
| fenn | if the level of drug effect is large enough to show on an intelligence effect it'd be more than just 'i read about this on erowid' | 01:04 |
| Vedestin | or rather, it has nothing to do with how much you've learned | 01:04 |
| fenn | s/effect/test/ | 01:04 |
| kanzure | it's not going to be a test, as far as I can tell | 01:05 |
| Vedestin | we need some mathematical minds to work on that model kanzure | 01:05 |
| kanzure | it's not measurable since we can't definte it | 01:05 |
| kanzure | so you have to look elsewhere | 01:05 |
| kanzure | i.e., attention | 01:05 |
| Vedestin | if it's not measurable we might as well be doing arts degrees | 01:05 |
| Vedestin | reading poetry | 01:05 |
| fenn | surely you can define pattern recognition, memory? | 01:05 |
| fenn | synthesis is a bit harder to define | 01:05 |
| kanzure | *define | 01:05 |
| kanzure | right | 01:05 |
| kanzure | hm, we're getting off topic | 01:06 |
| Vedestin | sorry | 01:06 |
| Vedestin | derailed it a bit | 01:06 |
| kanzure | I'm definitely interested in the engineering of intelligence | 01:06 |
| kanzure | and that's why I have the 'staged' strategy or whatever -- an engineered brain with plug-and-play thoughts/perceptions | 01:07 |
| Vedestin | i just see so many people so interested in this field | 01:07 |
| kanzure | which would allow permutation and recombination and selectivity in the desgin of brains, perceptual processes, etc. | 01:07 |
| kanzure | yeah | 01:07 |
| kanzure | certianly | 01:07 |
| kanzure | *certainly | 01:07 |
| Vedestin | but they're hobbled by it either being done from first principles | 01:07 |
| fenn | Vedestin: that's the amplifying power of the internet, not reality | 01:07 |
| Vedestin | or just skipping that part and assuming their methodology is good enough | 01:07 |
| kanzure | those aren't "first principles" ;-) | 01:07 |
| Phreedom | fenn: regarding your coders for a pile of junk complaint... do you really have a useful pile of junk in your gaage? ;) | 01:07 |
| fenn | Phreedom: no, not really | 01:08 |
| fenn | fake it til you make it baby | 01:08 |
| Vedestin | not being done from first principles i meant kanzure | 01:08 |
| * kanzure has sudden urge to stab fenn | 01:08 | |
| Vedestin | there are no first principles | 01:08 |
| Vedestin | that's what we need to find out | 01:08 |
| kanzure | "Fake it till you make it" is the reason I was forced through high school. | 01:08 |
| fenn | i've been in a coding slump for a half a year or so | 01:08 |
| Vedestin | fake it till you make it? | 01:08 |
| Vedestin | i've never heard that one | 01:09 |
| fenn | its a jazz improv thing | 01:09 |
| kanzure | it means bullshit | 01:09 |
| Phreedom | but sure experienced many times ;) | 01:09 |
| Vedestin | how does that apply to your high school kanzure? | 01:09 |
| kanzure | so I'm wondering if we really have to put together a better presentation of the project | 01:09 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: The parents. They had the say. | 01:09 |
| fenn | well the diagram i drew doesnt really explain the concept very well | 01:10 |
| fenn | its more of a 'how to implement this thing' diagram | 01:10 |
| kanzure | let's go back to the GNU analogy | 01:10 |
| kanzure | Stallman had the advantage of not having to explain to everybody what the hell a 'unix' was ;-) | 01:10 |
| fenn | indeed | 01:10 |
| kanzure | so he didn't need much to complete that part of the puzzle | 01:10 |
| fenn | also, he didnt have to convince everyone that such a thing as a 'unix' could actually work | 01:10 |
| Phreedom | but you don't need to explain anyone what GPL is ;) | 01:11 |
| fenn | GPL won't work for us, unfortunately | 01:11 |
| Phreedom | or open-source for that matter | 01:11 |
| kanzure | so, our 'unix' is really manufacturing overall | 01:12 |
| kanzure | which is really hard to explain since it's always behind closed doors | 01:12 |
| fenn | we can copyleft the design files and the software to make it work, but the hardware is 'property' in the end (i guess it doesnt matter much though) | 01:12 |
| kanzure | in giant factories that nobody knows much about | 01:12 |
| fenn | no, our unix is BETTER than manufacturing | 01:12 |
| kanzure | that's true | 01:12 |
| fenn | it takes these guys months and years to get a single product revision out the door | 01:12 |
| Phreedom | kanzure: you're mistaken | 01:12 |
| Phreedom | hardware is not really secret | 01:12 |
| kanzure | uh? it's all proprietary | 01:13 |
| fenn | it's secret _and_ proprietary | 01:13 |
| Phreedom | yes, but the science behind it isn't | 01:13 |
| fenn | oh really | 01:13 |
| kanzure | give me some citations | 01:13 |
| Phreedom | really | 01:13 |
| kanzure | and I'll go get the papers | 01:13 |
| fenn | science is a mixed bag | 01:13 |
| kanzure | I'd like some papers that do full reviews over manufacturing automation, metrology, materials science, chemical engineering 'unit processes', | 01:13 |
| Phreedom | at least I've never enountered stuff for which I couldn't find an acceptable description based on scientific works+patents | 01:14 |
| kanzure | biomining, and uhh tools, bootstrapping designs, and the historical routes of the fabrication of exact tools (genealogy) | 01:14 |
| fenn | tell me how to make a quantum tunneling composite (QTC pill) | 01:14 |
| Phreedom | businesses don't R&D half of your list | 01:14 |
| kanzure | because somebody else did a hundred years ago | 01:14 |
| kanzure | heh' | 01:14 |
| kanzure | look, we know that we can go walk around and pick up stones and make our own composites, our own plastics and our own ceramics from scratch if we had to | 01:15 |
| kanzure | but that's a long, long ass way away from what we're really trying to do | 01:15 |
| fenn | a lot of the things of interest to us have been funded by NASA fortunately, and they make everything available for free to the public | 01:15 |
| fenn | bootstrapping and self-contained manufacturing | 01:16 |
| fenn | it wasnt that long ago a smith could make everything in his shop he needed | 01:16 |
| Phreedom | fenn: probably QTC patents are still pending | 01:16 |
| kanzure | society has already done some of the bootstrapping -- now it's a social aggregation deal, or we just bootstrap it. We can do both at the same time. The bootstrapping -- from scratch -- is just so slow in comparison that we get to try to do this other stuff with society in the mean time. | 01:17 |
| Phreedom | kanzure: you'll end up bootstrapping almost from scratch | 01:17 |
| fenn | oh another one was that refractory 'paint' made out of hairspray, the guy paints it on an egg and takes an oxyacetylene torch to it - doesnt boil the egg | 01:17 |
| Phreedom | especially if you have plans for automatted manufacturing | 01:17 |
| Phreedom | fenn: cutting edge may be a problem | 01:18 |
| kanzure | you know that when I say from scratch I really mean from scratch, as in, cave man discover fire type scratch ;-) | 01:18 |
| fenn | this was ten years ago | 01:18 |
| Phreedom | oh well, you like to bring some obscure things to the table :P | 01:18 |
| fenn | it's obscure because it's proprietary and secret! | 01:18 |
| Phreedom | fenn: of course you can enounter bits of this stuff | 01:19 |
| Phreedom | but overall it's not as bad | 01:19 |
| fenn | you could have a micro gas turbine generator in your PDA if you had that kind of refractory material | 01:19 |
| Phreedom | information wants to be free | 01:19 |
| Phreedom | and wants it so badly that it usually escapes ;) | 01:19 |
| fenn | that's simply a statement of thermodynamics | 01:19 |
| fenn | heat wants to be free | 01:19 |
| kanzure | I want to be free. | 01:20 |
| Phreedom | so go ahead and escape too :P | 01:20 |
| Phreedom | and what does it mean to be free? | 01:20 |
| Phreedom | free to kill others? ;) | 01:20 |
| kanzure | okay, so back on topic | 01:21 |
| kanzure | hm? | 01:21 |
| Phreedom | so I assume the answer is yes :P | 01:22 |
| fenn | what's the topic? | 01:22 |
| -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help | 01:22 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] | 01:22 | |
| fenn | !topic | 01:22 |
| kanzure | I don't know what you mean, Phreedom - if you don't want people to die, why not back them up? | 01:22 |
| kanzure | fenn: the topic was back around something about Stallman or something | 01:22 |
| kanzure | i.e., do we really, really want to invest into a more formal front for ourselves | 01:22 |
| kanzure | by 'invest' I mean time | 01:22 |
| kanzure | especially re: the problems that Stallman got to ignore. | 01:23 |
| fenn | i think this is part of why i wanted an "autogenix technology distribution" | 01:23 |
| kanzure | remember how hard it was for people to convince manufacturers about PCs? | 01:23 |
| fenn | heh i just read some quote about that | 01:24 |
| kanzure | I wonder how people got convinced of 'business machines' in the first place. I think the automated calculators looked good .... because it did the finances and the moneymaking stuff. | 01:24 |
| fenn | So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.' | 01:24 |
| kanzure | yeah :( | 01:24 |
| fenn | too bad apple turned into the devil's little brother | 01:25 |
| kanzure | well, they didn't have an 'open source movement' to back them up | 01:25 |
| kanzure | theoretically we could tap into it | 01:25 |
| kanzure | hey, uh, do we want to abduct Stallman? | 01:25 |
| kanzure | is that the solution? | 01:25 |
| fenn | stallman's brain is crystallized | 01:25 |
| fenn | he wouldnt go for it | 01:26 |
| kanzure | see-through? | 01:26 |
| kanzure | hehe | 01:26 |
| fenn | just stuck in a rut | 01:26 |
| kanzure | that's true, he's basically done | 01:26 |
| fenn | it happens when you get old | 01:26 |
| kanzure | although I don't know about that re: his programming, does he still write anything? | 01:26 |
| fenn | where old = 30 | 01:26 |
| fenn | shit i've got 4 years until i'm useless | 01:26 |
| kanzure | meh, that's a lie | 01:26 |
| fenn | 2012 the day fenn becam useless | 01:26 |
| fenn | rofl | 01:27 |
| kanzure | happens to be the year I graduate from undergrad | 01:27 |
| kanzure | if I stay ;-) | 01:27 |
| kanzure | oh, did I give you my updated stance on governments? | 01:27 |
| fenn | "4 years is a small price, she said" | 01:27 |
| kanzure | basically any government that is imposing 'artificial scarcity' needs to be revolted against | 01:27 |
| Phreedom | fenn: so your only hope is kanzure... maybe one day he'll come and help you reverse aging :P | 01:27 |
| kanzure | Phreedom: antiaging is one of my subprojects, as it turns out. | 01:28 |
| kanzure | If we have clanking replicators we can do millions of tissue experiments + antiaging possibilities to test it all out. | 01:28 |
| kanzure | Also, Aubrey needs to double his efforts. Why the hell doesn't he make his machine setups open source etc.? | 01:28 |
| kanzure | he's getting millions in funding evidently ... grr. | 01:28 |
| kanzure | http://sens.org/ | 01:28 |
| Phreedom | maybe that's a condition he had to agree to | 01:28 |
| fenn | kanzure: example of government that's -not- imposing artificial scarcity? | 01:29 |
| kanzure | fenn: one that would see to SKDB. | 01:29 |
| fenn | sweden is toeing the line, maybe, sorta | 01:29 |
| kanzure | or autogenix etc. | 01:29 |
| fenn | piratbyren or whatever | 01:29 |
| kanzure | the govt should only be there to help people communicate and get together | 01:29 |
| Phreedom | yeah yeah | 01:29 |
| kanzure | and even then only to help 'human liberation' cause | 01:29 |
| kanzure | what I mean by that is that the current governments should be making your space habitats, fenn | 01:29 |
| Phreedom | really govt should protect life and freedom | 01:29 |
| Phreedom | the rest it's only going to stiffle | 01:30 |
| kanzure | Phreedom: protect? | 01:30 |
| fenn | kanzure: fuck they should have made them 40 years ago | 01:30 |
| fenn | i shouldnt have to deal with this shit | 01:30 |
| kanzure | but having governments impose various artificial scarcities, like promoting the whole "money" thing | 01:30 |
| Phreedom | kanzure: you don't want to be murdered, do you? | 01:30 |
| Phreedom | life also extends into ecology | 01:30 |
| kanzure | Phreedom: Nope, but I'm working on that one. | 01:30 |
| kanzure | I'm planning on some automated cloning machines + automated education machines. | 01:30 |
| kanzure | think stormtrooper | 01:30 |
| * fenn pictures a guy wearing egg-crates | 01:31 | |
| kanzure | right now you don't have much of a hiding option except for earth, but if you had space habitats, who cares? just leave, go to another star | 01:31 |
| kanzure | you shouldn't be your only working copy anyway | 01:31 |
| kanzure | that's just stupid engineering | 01:31 |
| fenn | crackpots come onto luf-team all the time, talking about making new governments/islands etc | 01:33 |
| fenn | the general consensus seems to be that you'd get bombed to little bits within a week, and not even get any media coverage | 01:34 |
| kanzure | fenn: so let's doubletime our strategies; first, we'll do a formal front, try to make something that looks spiffy but at the same time addressing the wide range of possibilities here (ugh), and then implement some strategies for dumpster diving for materials :-/ | 01:34 |
| fenn | why dumpster diving for materials? or do you mean that figuratively? | 01:34 |
| kanzure | that's the "from scratch" approach, so it's slightly figuratively -- it's more like figuring ou how to bootstrap it all | 01:35 |
| kanzure | which sucks. even Gingery needed some dumpsterstuff :/ | 01:35 |
| fenn | we need to get this guy writing for us: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/free_matter_economy | 01:35 |
| kanzure | fenn: how much of a bang did he make? | 01:37 |
| fenn | its basically paul fernhout with some realistic strategy | 01:37 |
| fenn | kanzure: its kinda hard to measure the effect an idea has on the internet, isnt it? | 01:37 |
| kanzure | what's his strategy? | 01:37 |
| fenn | similar to skdb, he was trying to make a 'sourceforge' for hardware projects | 01:38 |
| fenn | he talks about "ISRU" in-situ resource utilization, aka dumpster-diving | 01:39 |
| fenn | but also digging in the dirt, refining trash | 01:39 |
| kanzure | yes, but what's his strategy to get people on board | 01:39 |
| kanzure | we can all do trash and dumpster-diving | 01:39 |
| fenn | writing magazine articles i guess | 01:39 |
| kanzure | but that's not fast enough for my taste | 01:39 |
| kanzure | eh | 01:39 |
| kanzure | surely there must be something better | 01:40 |
| fenn | hey i thought you had pages of this stuff, 'how to build community' | 01:40 |
| fenn | oh, it was sorta hybrid between sourceforge and ebay (mfg.com) | 01:41 |
| kanzure | hm | 01:41 |
| kanzure | hold on | 01:41 |
| kanzure | http://narya.net/ | 01:41 |
| fenn | "A tavern, with really good napkins"\ | 01:41 |
| fenn | i think it stalled because he was the only person working on it | 01:42 |
| fenn | the cad exchange format is really tough too (there is very little open source cad-related software) | 01:43 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/creating_communities.html | 01:43 |
| kanzure | oh, scheduling online events | 01:43 |
| kanzure | that's one we've missed | 01:43 |
| kanzure | we could just say "meet online at this location at this time for an active discussion" | 01:44 |
| fenn | yep | 01:44 |
| kanzure | but that feels like preaching :( | 01:45 |
| fenn | rl events too | 01:45 |
| kanzure | " Fake community statistics for vBulletin: make it seem like there's more activity than there really is." | 01:45 |
| fenn | austin is full of weird people | 01:45 |
| fenn | (and apparently some of them are actually good at technical stuff) | 01:45 |
| kanzure | " - Create a fake identity and write from that perspective." | 01:45 |
| kanzure | I suppose that's true. But then I'd need a physical workshop. ;-) | 01:46 |
| fenn | nah that fake stuff is a bad idea | 01:46 |
| fenn | spam is the most hated crime on the internet | 01:46 |
| fenn | best to distance yourself from it as much as possible | 01:46 |
| fenn | just dont publish usage statistics if you're embarrassed about them | 01:46 |
| kanzure | " - Organic content. Let the problem of "advertizing" become the user's, not yours. Many users, means many possible solutions that you hadn't thought of." | 01:46 |
| kanzure | " | 01:47 |
| kanzure | A few popular sites can spread infections rapidly - Those 40,000 visitors all originated with six email messages and a post on my personal site. Do your research, pick the most relevant and popular sites, and start with them. The ‘long tail’ matters - Only 16% of all visitors came directly from one of those four originating sites. The vast majority of traffic came from over 500 additional, less-popular sites and other sources. | 01:47 |
| fenn | really virgle was a goldmine - i should've been more involved in openvirgle | 01:47 |
| kanzure | I was stupid for waitnig 20 days oto | 01:48 |
| kanzure | *too | 01:48 |
| kanzure | *waiting | 01:48 |
| fenn | oh, one good thing is to have something new for a user/volunteer to look at and contribute to every day | 01:48 |
| kanzure | hm? | 01:48 |
| fenn | hijack the "check your email" gene | 01:48 |
| kanzure | ah | 01:48 |
| fenn | blogs etc | 01:48 |
| fenn | people love to comment them some blogs | 01:49 |
| kanzure | btw, the 'copywritable' stuff is good - always write it for the person to copy and send immediately in the intended purpose, not for the person to rewrite and reformulate | 01:49 |
| kanzure | I don't know why people like commenting on blogs | 01:49 |
| kanzure | it's a terrible interface | 01:49 |
| kanzure | read an article, click 'comments', type in a comment, click, reload the page, go back to the index, find your place | 01:49 |
| fenn | most email is also a terrible interface | 01:49 |
| kanzure | or do some tabbing | 01:49 |
| fenn | ever used webmail? its about the same | 01:49 |
| kanzure | meh, at least with email I have 'look, read, arrow, look, read, arrow" | 01:49 |
| kanzure | yes, I have, but I have to really ask "why the hell use webmail" | 01:50 |
| kanzure | other than when on the road | 01:50 |
| kanzure | any other time it's inexecusable, it seems | 01:50 |
| fenn | what were you saying about 'copywritable'? i dont understand the context | 01:50 |
| kanzure | well, I've realized something | 01:50 |
| kanzure | when I make my announcements about projects and designs and so on | 01:50 |
| kanzure | nobody is going to rewrite it | 01:50 |
| kanzure | nobody is going to reinterpret | 01:50 |
| kanzure | when I posted emails, I realized that what was appearing on blogs, for example, | 01:51 |
| kanzure | was exactly what I had written | 01:51 |
| kanzure | and what I had written, frankly, *sucked* | 01:51 |
| kanzure | Makezine, as an example. | 01:51 |
| kanzure | I would've tailored it for their site had I known that it would've been a copy+paste thing. | 01:51 |
| kanzure | anyway, daily activities | 01:51 |
| fenn | ah so you sent out a 'press release' and they just published it | 01:51 |
| kanzure | I didn't know I was writing a press release :) | 01:52 |
| kanzure | but apparently that's what it was. | 01:52 |
| fenn | welcome to the 21st century, growing pains and all | 01:52 |
| kanzure | daily activities -> I don't really know. I guess we could do a blog about "how our poject solves yet another stupid problem if only you people would listen" | 01:53 |
| kanzure | but that's the angry old guy approach | 01:53 |
| kanzure | probably not good | 01:53 |
| fenn | this is a cool blog i read a lot (not daily, but could be aggregated if skdb proved useful to him) | 01:55 |
| fenn | http://www.anderswallin.net/ | 01:55 |
| fenn | he's into CAM software | 01:55 |
| fenn | (and RC sailboats) | 01:56 |
| fenn | something went screwy with the photo size, not usually like that | 01:56 |
| fenn | at the same time though, blog aggregation is pretty lame | 01:57 |
| kanzure | why isn't there a "shit I've solved world hunger, what now?" hotline ? | 01:58 |
| fenn | um.. dude, it's been solved for 50+ years | 01:58 |
| fenn | why isnt there a "what now" hotline maybe? | 01:59 |
| kanzure | sure | 02:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: if it's all secret knowledge, then what are we to do in the mean time? while we're trying to bootstrap it via stealing garbage + also trying the social routes? | 02:06 |
| kanzure | I think we could, theoretically, map out some strategies | 02:07 |
| kanzure | I mean, it's not like there were many 'manufacturing geniuses' back in the day, most of the processes have to be pretty simple, right? | 02:07 |
| fenn | CLI ftw: http://code.google.com/soc/2008/gimp/appinfo.html?csaid=645C8B60767929AF | 02:07 |
| fenn | a lot of manufacturing knowledge is still locked up in peoples' heads, simply because its so obvious once you try to do it | 02:08 |
| kanzure | trying to optimize, gain access to proprietary/hidden BS, all at the same time => probably a recipe for failure? | 02:08 |
| kanzure | hm. | 02:08 |
| fenn | its similar to the AI learning to speak problem | 02:08 |
| fenn | kanzure: the solving world hunger is a political problem, similar to IP. it's not secret or anything | 02:09 |
| fenn | like, we have all this food which is worth very little to us, but you cant have it even though you're starving, or.. you cant have it because your fucking dickhead government would rather use it as a tool than just give it to you | 02:10 |
| kanzure | http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=44506950346 <-- brings back lots of memories | 02:10 |
| kanzure | http://austinwaldorf.org/ | 02:10 |
| kanzure | oh, I always assumed it was really truly because of production | 02:10 |
| fenn | facebook hates me because i won't register | 02:10 |
| kanzure | eh, well, it's the Austin Waldorf School graduation ceremony | 02:11 |
| fenn | 'world hunger is already solved' was bucky fuller's tagline | 02:11 |
| kanzure | Class of 2008: George Black, Christopher Brockett, Hannah Campos, Colin Clark, Gina Daniel, Alexandra Frizzell, Zoe Gioja, Jessica Goldstein, Courtney Graves, Sorcha Grogan, Conor Hall, Patrick Hall, Alexandra Hoisington, Arielle Lewis-Zavala, Gabriela Moats, James Morton, Bridget O'Shaughnessy, Ixchel Parr, Rachel Rodgers, Karl Snyder, Steven Tijmes, Forest Trager, Daniel Winkler, Luke Zasowski | 02:12 |
| fenn | another fresh batch of fodder for the mills | 02:12 |
| kanzure | Forest and I were 'fort buddies' / Star Wars / Warcraft/Starcraft addicts back in the day. | 02:13 |
| kanzure | by back in the day I mean a few decades or something | 02:14 |
| kanzure | I don't understand the learning-to-speak problem | 02:14 |
| kanzure | Chomsky language acquisition stuff ? | 02:14 |
| fenn | the point of cyc was to make an explicit ontology/knowledge base defining all the common day-to-day common sense a child learns automatically | 02:16 |
| fenn | a new employee is like a baby because they dont know this stuff | 02:17 |
| fenn | at an industrial manufacturing job | 02:17 |
| fenn | unless their job is just to press the green button | 02:17 |
| fenn | i wasnt really going anywhere with this, it will become apparent what's missing once we try to use the system anyway | 02:18 |
| kanzure | I don't know what to do to get skdb actually working. I don't like this 'not knowing' thing. | 02:18 |
| kanzure | it's obvious that we're good on our end re: programming, infrastructure, database requirements, etc. | 02:19 |
| kanzure | we have that settled | 02:19 |
| fenn | i'm still a little stuck on what a validation should be validating.. and also how to settle units/requirements | 02:21 |
| fenn | mostly its just laziness/motivational deficiency | 02:22 |
| fenn | distraction, weird schedule and lack of sleep | 02:22 |
| kanzure | multiple levels of validation -- such as syntax, making sure the units can plug together when you're using a class-type-object-thing to specify a jumblement of packages put together to make a new one or something (fire+water => life, in the Aristotlean models) | 02:22 |
| kanzure | as for settling units/requirements, I don't know what you mean by that -- like protocols for yelling at each other over whether or not it's in BTUs or candles? | 02:23 |
| fenn | no BTU into candle is done deal, GNU units handles that | 02:23 |
| kanzure | then what 'requirements' ? | 02:23 |
| fenn | its like interface definitions | 02:24 |
| kanzure | how to settle interference uh, conflicts? | 02:24 |
| kanzure | "conflicts of interest" except something else. | 02:24 |
| fenn | grr stupid manufacturing people havent even come up with stats to compare milling machines against each other | 02:24 |
| kanzure | conflicting realtime-unit-dependencies? | 02:24 |
| kanzure | wtf? | 02:25 |
| kanzure | that's just lame | 02:25 |
| fenn | not conflicts, just interoperability requirements | 02:25 |
| fenn | like your camera needs a USB charger or a wall outlet | 02:25 |
| fenn | i just havent generalized it yet | 02:25 |
| kanzure | okay, that's not bad | 02:25 |
| fenn | its one thing to write it in english, another to figure out how to do it in code | 02:25 |
| kanzure | doesn't sound like an impossible task | 02:26 |
| kanzure | we'll have a class that does input/output for physical plugging or something | 02:26 |
| kanzure | and then we'd have extra scripts to compare these in the 'design compilation process' or one of those validation check stages | 02:27 |
| fenn | i think its just me trying to avert possible problems in the future that we can probably work around in the future anyway | 02:27 |
| kanzure | heh | 02:27 |
| fenn | ther's a balance between worrying and fixing stupid decisions | 02:27 |
| fenn | stupid decisions get entrenched | 02:27 |
| fenn | but worrying isn't actually productive | 02:27 |
| fenn | manufacturing is absolutely chock full of stupid decisions | 02:28 |
| fenn | and they never get fixed because it creates exploitable scarcity | 02:28 |
| fenn | ok so units is a level below interface checking | 02:29 |
| kanzure | we need a contigency plan in case "some rich dude notices us" doesn't work out | 02:29 |
| fenn | "some rich dude notices us" isnt going to work out | 02:29 |
| kanzure | then we're going to have to dumpster-dive | 02:29 |
| fenn | that was never the plan anyway | 02:29 |
| kanzure | by "rich dude" I mean any possible sort of "rich"/charitable organization, or attention-directing source | 02:30 |
| fenn | right | 02:30 |
| kanzure | okay, so I guess I just need to move to somewhere that there's lots of free junk floating around | 02:30 |
| kanzure | and do scrapstrapping | 02:30 |
| fenn | i want to build dumpster-friendliness into the system anyway, because "some rich dude" wont be knocking on the door of everyone else in the world | 02:30 |
| kanzure | sur | 02:30 |
| kanzure | *sure | 02:31 |
| fenn | thats why i'm so adamant against black-boxiness | 02:31 |
| kanzure | what about whiteboxiness? you can look, but you don't have to | 02:31 |
| kanzure | that's what I call a blackbox | 02:31 |
| kanzure | whereas I think your blackbox == proprietary and so on | 02:31 |
| fenn | uh.. er.. i just mean something the computer doesnt have any wiggle room | 02:31 |
| kanzure | k | 02:31 |
| fenn | it should all be open source anyway, so a human could look at it | 02:32 |
| fenn | any thoughts on licensing strategies? | 02:32 |
| kanzure | ignore it | 02:32 |
| fenn | i like the affero gpl | 02:32 |
| kanzure | or if we have to, something viral | 02:32 |
| kanzure | Paul's been pushing for me to license my site | 02:33 |
| kanzure | but I already have a damned robots.txt file on there. | 02:33 |
| fenn | eh? whats robots.txt got to do with it | 02:33 |
| kanzure | it tells you what to save and what not to | 02:33 |
| kanzure | it's one of them there darned 'web standards' ;-) | 02:33 |
| fenn | its an ugly hack, not a web standard | 02:34 |
| fenn | bleh, anyway it doesnt say anything about the legality of re-publishing text and files from your site | 02:34 |
| kanzure | btw, my policy is sharing of course | 02:34 |
| kanzure | uhrm, so | 02:35 |
| kanzure | so if we're not going to rely on 'some rich dude' scenarios | 02:35 |
| fenn | you just need to be explicit about it | 02:35 |
| kanzure | then how would we go about diving? | 02:35 |
| kanzure | I mean, should I map it out on Google Maps and do daily routes? | 02:35 |
| kanzure | there's not much around in my area | 02:35 |
| kanzure | no manufacturing facilities really, wrong part of the continent | 02:36 |
| kanzure | we do, however, have a rock crushing facility | 02:36 |
| kanzure | since there's so much limestone around here. | 02:36 |
| fenn | that's not what i mean by dumpster diving | 02:36 |
| kanzure | "hunting for scraps in the junk yard" | 02:37 |
| fenn | usually, you will see something in the dumpster, think it's possibly useful and take it home | 02:37 |
| kanzure | right | 02:37 |
| kanzure | so I mean a route, as in, going through the neighborhoods and at the good dumpsters | 02:37 |
| fenn | over the years you accumulate large quantities of this crap, and have no easy way to integrate it into your cad systems | 02:37 |
| kanzure | eh? | 02:37 |
| fenn | however, say someone models the inkjet printer guts and their specs | 02:38 |
| fenn | then presto it's immediately 90% more useful than it was without that info available | 02:38 |
| fenn | so, yes i suppose you could look in dumpsters and see if anything's online in skdb regarding that particular piece of trash | 02:38 |
| fenn | roving wifi trash-nomads | 02:39 |
| kanzure | :/ that has to be very inefficient | 02:39 |
| kanzure | but visiting junkyards might be a better idea | 02:40 |
| kanzure | surely they keep more than cars, right? | 02:40 |
| kanzure | or does everybody throw out their microwaves and machinery via garbage cans these days? | 02:40 |
| fenn | good junkyards are disappearing due to insurance liability, general public froofiness, etc | 02:40 |
| fenn | i went to the recycling center where they had this trash can full of cell phones | 02:40 |
| fenn | 'can i have a couple of those cell phones to disassemble and use in electronics projects?' | 02:41 |
| fenn | 'no, we arent allowed to redistribute them because you might electrocute yourself' | 02:41 |
| kanzure | shit | 02:41 |
| kanzure | recycling, you say? | 02:41 |
| fenn | so instead they are going to grind them up into a paste and reclaim the gold in order to buy some fucking calling cards for soldiers in iraq to use satellite phones | 02:41 |
| kanzure | lsdfdlkjadlkadsfklasfd | 02:41 |
| fenn | then they have this heavy-metal laden paste which gets dumped into the ocean | 02:42 |
| fenn | there is like $0.15 worth of gold in a phone | 02:42 |
| fenn | after recycling costs | 02:42 |
| fenn | so.. i dunno wtf they are thinking besides authority mentality | 02:42 |
| kanzure | I need a better electronics inventory anyway, my parts collection is ridiculously low | 02:43 |
| fenn | yep | 02:43 |
| kanzure | I only have a few cases full of resistors, transistors, capacitors anyway | 02:43 |
| kanzure | nothing else | 02:43 |
| fenn | oh, you mean actually getting the stuff | 02:43 |
| kanzure | only one soldering iron | 02:43 |
| fenn | futurlec is cheap and has mostly good useful stuff | 02:44 |
| kanzure | although it's come in handy ;-) | 02:44 |
| fenn | they sometimes take 2 months to ship your order though | 02:44 |
| fenn | jameco is also cheap and good selection | 02:44 |
| kanzure | digikey? | 02:44 |
| fenn | and digikey for everything else | 02:44 |
| kanzure | mouser? | 02:44 |
| kanzure | okay | 02:44 |
| fenn | fuck mouser | 02:44 |
| fenn | oh, digikey has the best prices on AVR's for some reason | 02:45 |
| fenn | i can make some electronics recommendations but i dont know what you're doing | 02:45 |
| kanzure | oh, nothing, just accumulating | 02:46 |
| kanzure | http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=junk+yards&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 | 02:46 |
| kanzure | looks like people thin it's mostly vehicles | 02:46 |
| kanzure | Local business results for junk yards near Buda, TX change locationA.Ken's Auto Buyer - maps.google.com - (512) 243-5277 - more | 02:47 |
| kanzure | B.On the Road Salvage - maps.google.com - (512) 389-1119 - more | 02:47 |
| kanzure | C.American Lung Association of Texas - www.texaslung.org - (512) 467-2534 - more | 02:47 |
| kanzure | HAHAH. | 02:47 |
| fenn | accumulating electronics from junk doesn't seem to really work in reality unless you are really good at electronics already | 02:47 |
| fenn | yeah texans smoke a lot doncha know | 02:47 |
| fenn | lungs are full of junk | 02:47 |
| fenn | maybe it will be easier to junk-source with skdb | 02:48 |
| fenn | "for this project you will need: a resistor, between 500 and 1500 ohm, a capacitor 50-300uF" etc | 02:48 |
| fenn | but common stuff is so damn cheap it's not even worth picking up off the floor | 02:49 |
| fenn | like 0.05 cent for a resistor | 02:49 |
| -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap | 02:49 | |
| fenn | people who shop at radio shack dont know this of course | 02:49 |
| kanzure | right | 02:49 |
| fenn | talk about artificial scarcity | 02:50 |
| kanzure | http://www.dnrec.state.de.us/dnrec2000/Divisions/AWM/hw/hw/salvage.htm Salvage Yard Manual | 02:50 |
| kanzure | 'The Salvage Yard manual was produced to provide guidance for handling or recycling waste fluids, scrap metal, machinery, equipment, and vehicles. You can download the chapters of this manual below.' | 02:50 |
| kanzure | heh, there's a *single* person to email to get more info | 02:50 |
| fenn | i would like to make a 'post-industrial shack' where we sell drill bits, RP equipment, electronics, and consulting? | 02:51 |
| kanzure | what's with the question mark? | 02:53 |
| kanzure | bleh, all of the stuff on the internet sucks ... the junkyards are all for 'auto' stuffs | 02:53 |
| kanzure | I guess everybody is throwing stuff away in stead | 02:53 |
| fenn | btw re: scrap yard manual, this is an interesting story about improper scrap yard practices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident | 02:54 |
| fenn | "consulting?" because i wasnt sure if that fit the business model | 02:55 |
| fenn | or the ideology | 02:55 |
| fenn | information wants to be free! but you have to pay me to answer your question | 02:55 |
| fenn | http://www.alpha.geek.nz/ARPANET.JPG | 03:01 |
| kanzure | well, Opera crashed, but there's some good links at the bottom of [[Scrap]] on Wikipedia | 03:06 |
| kanzure | g'night | 03:06 |
| -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 03:07 | |
| -!- shogunx [n=shogunx@rrcs-24-73-158-97.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 05:18 | |
| -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d122-109-35-58.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 07:53 | |
| -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 14:44 | |
| kanzure | http://cosmeng.org/ the Order of Cosmic Engineers. | 15:26 |
| kanzure | but again ... they're not actually *doing* engineering (skdb) | 15:26 |
| -!- Splicer [n=p@h98n2c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:14 | |
| -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 19:24 | |
| -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap | 19:24 | |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Undergaduate_neuroscience <-- I sent an email to the Director of the Neuroscience Institute at UT Austin about setting up an undergrad program in neurosci | 19:30 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Manufacturing_engineering <-- also looks good for UT. Anyway, I'm late for graduation now. Or something. | 19:31 |
| Splicer | good luck with the day.. cu | 19:40 |
| -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d122-109-35-58.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #hplusroadmap | 22:16 | |
| -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@www.online.dn.ua] has left #hplusroadmap ["Kopete 0.12.4 : http://kopete.kde.org"] | 22:24 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
