| --- Day changed Wed Jun 04 2008 | ||
| kanzure | these references are quickly getting me into the photography-PDF papers from the '60s | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | hahah, oh boy, crash crash crash | 00:09 |
| * kanzure frowns at losing 20 pages of notes | 00:10 | |
| kanzure | savestate http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Polymerase | 00:50 |
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| kanzure | Hi ybit. | 00:52 |
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| kanzure | fenn: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Polymerase the big, giant blog of text is probably what will be most helpful | 02:10 |
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| joshcryer | So it seems to me most of you guys are focused on bioengineering. | 02:38 |
| joshcryer | Rather than chemistry or electronics or software. | 02:38 |
| Vedestin | there's a chemistry channel | 02:38 |
| joshcryer | Related to replicatin or h+/ | 02:38 |
| Vedestin | oh, no | 02:39 |
| Vedestin | they're mostly drug addicts | 02:39 |
| joshcryer | #chemistry is general purpose... I don't think they'd like my ramblings much. | 02:39 |
| joshcryer | Though they'd understand more about how I think we could go about this. | 02:39 |
| Vedestin | what are you thinking? | 02:39 |
| joshcryer | High temperature compound seperation (recycling). | 02:40 |
| joshcryer | I'm converting those Thermodynamic Tables to Djvu format (because Adobe PDF is hopelessly slow). | 02:40 |
| joshcryer | It's taken almost 24 hours. | 02:40 |
| Vedestin | ahh | 02:41 |
| Vedestin | so what are you going to do? mine landfill? | 02:42 |
| joshcryer | Yeah you could. | 02:46 |
| joshcryer | Part of the problem is breaking things down to their constituant parts. | 02:46 |
| joshcryer | Now I read some of the backlog and lot here seem to look to bioengineering for that. | 02:46 |
| joshcryer | But that's an unknown field imvho. | 02:46 |
| joshcryer | We already know how to melt stuff down and chemically seperate. | 02:46 |
| joshcryer | The Thermodynamic Tables have every combination known to man. | 02:47 |
| joshcryer | The other part of the problem is recombining those elements into something useful. | 02:47 |
| facefaceface | but plastics don't melt nice | 02:47 |
| joshcryer | I think RepRap is doing OK in that vein so why not meet them halfway? | 02:47 |
| facefaceface | there is no propper tm, cus they ... scorch? I forgot the precise term | 02:48 |
| joshcryer | Plastics don't normally biodegrade, either. | 02:48 |
| joshcryer | You gotta engineer something that will eat them. | 02:48 |
| facefaceface | word | 02:48 |
| joshcryer | Ever hear about the Great Pacific Landfill? | 02:48 |
| joshcryer | A great amount of the worlds plastic winds up there. | 02:48 |
| Vedestin | the ocean? | 02:48 |
| joshcryer | It photodegrades. | 02:48 |
| -!- facefaceface is now known as faceface | 02:48 | |
| joshcryer | So it will break down into smaller molocules. | 02:48 |
| joshcryer | But what happens is the ocean currents put it in the north pacific. | 02:49 |
| Vedestin | so what is it, just a big island of floating shit | 02:49 |
| joshcryer | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch | 02:49 |
| joshcryer | Yep. | 02:49 |
| joshcryer | Valueable shit! | 02:49 |
| joshcryer | 100 million tons of plastic and other garbage. | 02:50 |
| Vedestin | yeah, no i have heard of that | 02:51 |
| Vedestin | so what do you want to do? gather up discarded plastic, put it under heat and pressure and make it back in to useful shit? | 02:55 |
| joshcryer | Yeah | 02:56 |
| joshcryer | But not just that. | 02:56 |
| joshcryer | Plain soil has 10g of Ti, 90g of Al, etc. | 02:56 |
| joshcryer | (1000 grams of soil.) | 02:56 |
| joshcryer | So it'd be great for recycling landfills but you could use it to make stuff out of plain dirt! | 02:57 |
| faceface | "crystalline melting temperature" | 03:00 |
| faceface | The boiling point of a polymer substance is never defined because polymers will decompose before reaching theoretical boiling temperatures. | 03:01 |
| Vedestin | that's really more chemical engineering than transhumanism joshcryer | 03:02 |
| joshcryer | Vedestin, you gotta start somewhere. | 03:03 |
| joshcryer | Advanced production -> AI -> transhumanism. | 03:03 |
| joshcryer | imvho. | 03:03 |
| joshcryer | I came here cause kanzure said I might like it since you discuss replication. | 03:04 |
| Vedestin | yeah, fair point | 03:04 |
| joshcryer | The discussion started with moon base replicators in #space. :) | 03:05 |
| Vedestin | moon bases capable of building other moon bases? | 03:24 |
| joshcryer | Yeah | 03:27 |
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| Vedestin | it sure is interesting | 03:31 |
| Vedestin | but yeah, they talk about boot strapping and that sort of thing in here | 03:31 |
| Vedestin | i don't really know much about it | 03:31 |
| Vedestin | they tell an analogy to me about some guy who built his own milling machine out of scrap metal and old broken shit | 03:31 |
| joshcryer | Yeah | 03:34 |
| joshcryer | You can do that. | 03:34 |
| Vedestin | yeah, i know | 03:34 |
| joshcryer | You can make a forge that can melt metal that can be used to make a machine shop. | 03:34 |
| joshcryer | That's basically classic bootstrapping right there. | 03:35 |
| joshcryer | Then you use the machine shop tools to make even more intricate stuff. | 03:35 |
| Vedestin | yeah | 03:35 |
| faceface | to what extent is this idea of classic 'bootstrapping' analogous to a computer booting up? | 04:04 |
| faceface | does the analogy continue into the relm of developmental biology? | 04:05 |
| faceface | send me your essays by next tuesday | 04:05 |
| Vedestin | isn't that why it's called booting up | 04:09 |
| joshcryer | Consider insemination and duplication. | 04:27 |
| joshcryer | The rather classic example of biological bootstrapping. | 04:27 |
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| fenn | so, reprap finally did it: http://bp3.blogger.com/_sKFX5zDfq4o/SEW9ijZSbuI/AAAAAAAAALE/PV73sYll04g/s1600-h/pc-va.jpg | 13:42 |
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| kanzure | fenn: could you send me your FPGA DNA Winfree stuff ? | 14:40 |
| kanzure | you said you sent CBA the info, but I never saw your email | 14:40 |
| fenn | its just the wiki page: fennetic.net/machines/replicator | 15:13 |
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| parodyoflanguage | Hello? | 15:22 |
| parodyoflanguage | Anyone active? | 15:25 |
| fenn | sorta | 15:27 |
| parodyoflanguage | Well, hi then, to what is active. | 15:28 |
| parodyoflanguage | Anyway, I heard about this project from the extropy mailing list, and I've been on the hplusroadmap list. | 15:30 |
| parodyoflanguage | Though, there's a lot of stuff I'm not really understanding, but you guys are actually doing synthetic biology or just talking about it? | 15:30 |
| parodyoflanguage | I don't really know what the function/purpose of the programming you're doing is. | 15:33 |
| parodyoflanguage | hold on: found http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Getting_up_to_speed | 15:34 |
| parodyoflanguage | Are there logs of this channel? | 15:35 |
| fenn | no | 16:40 |
| fenn | bryan is doing (or will be shortly) synthetic biology at U. Texas/Austin | 16:40 |
| fenn | school crushed any interest i might have had in genetic engineering | 16:40 |
| fenn | so i'm now focused more on personal manufacturing | 16:41 |
| parodyoflanguage | ah | 16:56 |
| kanzure | *ahem* | 18:15 |
| * kanzure is sitting in the lab. | 18:15 | |
| kanzure | so, I apologize for my lag | 18:15 |
| kanzure | it really is personal manufacturing, the trick is that it's all wetware and wetware sucks since it's not solid state | 18:16 |
| kanzure | parodyoflanguage: Yes, there are logs of the channel. | 18:16 |
| kanzure | However, it's more of a need-to-know basis ... but last night I was uploading a partial log. http://heybryan.org/chats/2008-06-03_synthetic_biology_stuff_%23hplusroadmap.html | 18:17 |
| kanzure | fenn: so it turns out that not many enzymes are all that photosensitive | 18:24 |
| kanzure | however, I can't think of a 'go to next spot' signal that would be better than photons | 18:24 |
| kanzure | so if we can come up with, say, photo-activated rifampicin, which some papers have been saying specifically blocks stuff like RNA polymerase active site (where the magic happens), that would be great. by 'photo-activated' I mean 'make it into its pesky form, otherwise just sit there and do nothing special'. but it's sketchy. | 18:25 |
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| kanzure | oh | 18:38 |
| kanzure | I bet polymerase knows what the other nucleotide is, via voltages | 18:39 |
| kanzure | there's a distinct voltage for each nucleotide | 18:39 |
| kanzure | last I checked, there are STM tips that are sharp enough to scan DNA | 18:39 |
| kanzure | so we can use these tips + quantum tunneling to test that | 18:39 |
| kanzure | if so, we can just make tips that run in synch with the polymerase molecules | 18:39 |
| kanzure | but that's mixing solid state and wet ware :( | 18:39 |
| fenn | AFM is not solid state | 19:08 |
| fenn | and do you have any examples of actual DNA sequencing with STM/AFM? | 19:09 |
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| kanzure | fenn: possible collaboration with http://freedomofscience.org/ | 20:31 |
| kanzure | /they/ contacted /me/ | 20:31 |
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| kanzure | fenn: I just got a press release from RepRap saying it's able to make all of its parts | 22:05 |
| kanzure | 'RepRap has, so far, been capable of making everyday plastic goods such as | 22:06 |
| kanzure | door handles,sandals and coat hooks. Now, the machine has also succeeded | 22:06 |
| kanzure | in copying all its own 3D-printed parts. These parts have been printed' | 22:06 |
| fenn | yay. it's about time | 22:06 |
| kanzure | so, if this is true, then I estimate 30 days until it's covering the planet | 22:10 |
| Vedestin | 30 days | 22:21 |
| Vedestin | that's not long at all | 22:21 |
| Vedestin | what can't it reproduce? | 22:21 |
| kanzure | itself | 22:22 |
| Phreedom | Vedestin: almost everything | 22:24 |
| Vedestin | fair enough | 22:24 |
| Phreedom | plastic corners aren't very useful you know | 22:24 |
| Phreedom | and they didn't address generational degradation | 22:24 |
| Vedestin | no i guess not | 22:24 |
| Phreedom | so far (semi-)commerially manufatured reprap plastic parts were not printed by a reprap | 22:25 |
| Vedestin | so they're more durable? | 22:25 |
| Phreedom | and somewhat resemble the parts that are needed :) | 22:25 |
| Vedestin | i see | 22:25 |
| Phreedom | if you take a closer look at reprap-made reprap parts, you'll see what I'm talking about | 22:26 |
| kanzure | argh | 22:26 |
| Vedestin | are the angles wrong? | 22:26 |
| kanzure | why the hell would they do that sort of a press release | 22:26 |
| Phreedom | recently there were posted photos of quite high quality prints | 22:26 |
| kanzure | "WE DID IT! YAY AYAYAYAYAY! HUMANITY DAY" | 22:26 |
| Phreedom | but they were done using a better positioning system | 22:26 |
| Phreedom | or so it seems | 22:26 |
| Phreedom | I may be mistaken | 22:27 |
| Phreedom | so better see for yourself | 22:27 |
| Phreedom | of course reprap is progressing | 22:27 |
| Phreedom | but IMHO it's still not ready | 22:27 |
| Vedestin | not ready to what? | 22:27 |
| Phreedom | not ready to live up to its promise | 22:27 |
| Phreedom | lossless self-replication | 22:28 |
| Vedestin | oh | 22:28 |
| Vedestin | i'm not sure what the point of it is beyond that | 22:28 |
| Vedestin | why would you bother making anything with it other than another reprap | 22:28 |
| Phreedom | there's a hope reprap can be used to bootstrap other more useful manufacturing tehnologies | 22:28 |
| Phreedom | ie their idea is spread reprap first and then make repraps around the world continuously upgrade themselves | 22:29 |
| Vedestin | so repraps will eventually be able to make circuits? | 22:29 |
| Phreedom | better ask reprap devs ;) | 22:30 |
| Vedestin | seems kind of useless if it cant | 22:30 |
| kanzure | Vedestin: exactly | 22:30 |
| Phreedom | my take on this is that it can be done eventually... but it's like reinventing the wheel | 22:30 |
| Phreedom | so I'm trying do go a more direct route | 22:31 |
| Phreedom | that is produce a capable machine form the get go | 22:31 |
| Phreedom | *from | 22:31 |
| Vedestin | so it'll start with people getting a piece of pcb, reprap draws a circuit on and they etch it themselves or something | 22:31 |
| Phreedom | more or less | 22:31 |
| Vedestin | then they've got to get IC and all that | 22:31 |
| Phreedom | of ourse | 22:31 |
| Phreedom | reprap guys did a good job with plastic extruders | 22:32 |
| Phreedom | their extruder head is quite usable already | 22:32 |
| Phreedom | but on a good cnc machine, not a reprap :( | 22:32 |
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| kanzure | Hey joshcryer. | 23:04 |
| joshcryer | Sup | 23:05 |
| kanzure | Crying about #reprap. | 23:08 |
| joshcryer | There's a #reprap? | 23:08 |
| kanzure | yes | 23:08 |
| joshcryer | Ooh. | 23:08 |
| joshcryer | It's bigger than here. | 23:08 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: There was a press release today saying that RepRap self-replicates already. :( | 23:08 |
| kanzure | it implied it, at least. | 23:08 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, hah! HAH! | 23:08 |
| joshcryer | They didn't imply it there's a friggin picture showing the clone. :) | 23:09 |
| kanzure | sorry, it didn't build itself -- a critical component of the design is the electronics | 23:15 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, I just know not three days ago you and nsh were saying that it couldn't even do what it was supposed to do (make the parts that it claimed to be able to make). | 23:16 |
| kanzure | no | 23:16 |
| kanzure | it's supposed to self-replicate | 23:16 |
| kanzure | the claims from darwin are BS | 23:16 |
| kanzure | darwin is not replicating and thus shouldn't be taking up the name 'RepRap' | 23:17 |
| joshcryer | No. | 23:18 |
| joshcryer | 1.0 was supposed to create much of the parts that consist of its design. | 23:18 |
| joshcryer | The eventual goal is replication. | 23:18 |
| joshcryer | Not the first step. | 23:19 |
| joshcryer | We've been over this twice man. | 23:19 |
| fenn | then they should say that in the press release hmm? somehow "replication achieved" doesnt quite convey the same information | 23:25 |
| * fenn wonders if its worth reading #reprap backlog | 23:26 | |
| kanzure | fenn: it's more of the same | 23:28 |
| kanzure | fenn: however, there's one interesting thing I have learned | 23:28 |
| kanzure | they think it's "evolutionary" because of the *social* design process | 23:28 |
| kanzure | i.e., each person downloads it and they make an iterative hack on to the system | 23:28 |
| kanzure | and they say "look! it's evolving!" | 23:28 |
| fenn | they think it's "evolutionary" because it's named "darwin" | 23:28 |
| kanzure | basically, "because everybody wants it to self-replicate, they will make it do that eventually" | 23:29 |
| fenn | i.e. someone told them so | 23:29 |
| Phreedom | actually they'll make it eventually | 23:41 |
| Phreedom | the question is when | 23:41 |
| fenn | there's no plan | 23:42 |
| Phreedom | yeah | 23:42 |
| Phreedom | no plan to address current known shortcomings | 23:42 |
| Phreedom | (without scapping the whole thing of course) | 23:42 |
| kanzure | scrapping? | 23:42 |
| Phreedom | throwing away | 23:42 |
| kanzure | I think they hate me because what I suggest would require scrapping :( | 23:42 |
| Phreedom | maybe I'm not very good at english | 23:42 |
| Phreedom | actually while I think reprap is far away from *lossless* replication, i think the project is partially successful and definitely useful | 23:43 |
| Phreedom | they made a good extruder head | 23:43 |
| Phreedom | and they managed to assemble community | 23:43 |
| kanzure | oh, it's successful, socially, it's useful, but it's not RepRap | 23:43 |
| Phreedom | so if a more practical project comes to replace reprap, there's some foundation to build on | 23:43 |
| kanzure | like SKDB | 23:43 |
| Phreedom | kanzure: correct | 23:44 |
| kanzure | *ahem* | 23:44 |
| kanzure | that's our whole point | 23:44 |
| kanzure | but talking to you is like preaching to the choir | 23:44 |
| kanzure | you're already doing similar work, right? | 23:44 |
| Phreedom | yes | 23:46 |
| Phreedom | a practical machine | 23:47 |
| Phreedom | without claims for self-replication, although it does make it's frame corners, metallic this time :) | 23:47 |
| Phreedom | and it can replicate frame corners losslessly | 23:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: interesting question-based approach | 23:49 |
| kanzure | forces them to answer something important | 23:49 |
| fenn | or just ignore me | 23:50 |
| Phreedom | or play games till you take ball and go home | 23:50 |
| kanzure | it just hurts so badly though | 23:51 |
| kanzure | why would they make such a press release | 23:51 |
| kanzure | how is that playing fair? | 23:51 |
| Phreedom | truth sucks if you ignore it too much | 23:51 |
| Phreedom | kanzure: but they are hurting themselves | 23:51 |
| Phreedom | not you | 23:51 |
| Phreedom | always check the facts, read articles, not headlines | 23:51 |
| Phreedom | and you'll be fine | 23:51 |
| kanzure | somehow I fear that they are, in fact, hurting me | 23:52 |
| kanzure | first, the fact that their snowball is well underway | 23:52 |
| kanzure | second, that there's no reasoning with them | 23:52 |
| kanzure | nobody there seems to have the will to talk it over | 23:52 |
| Phreedom | it's a question of time ;) | 23:53 |
| fenn | people in the chat room aren't actually building anything, btw | 23:53 |
| fenn | nor are they 'officially' affiliated | 23:54 |
| Phreedom | you don't go and try to talk every religious nut you meet into accepting reality? | 23:54 |
| kanzure | I've noticed something about that | 23:54 |
| fenn | so basically you're just talking to some people on freenode | 23:54 |
| kanzure | fenn, it's an academic project | 23:54 |
| kanzure | it looks like it's some hostile professor's project | 23:54 |
| kanzure | who otherwise has good intentions I'm sure | 23:54 |
| Phreedom | lol | 23:54 |
| fenn | why do you say hostile? | 23:54 |
| kanzure | but I think that's what might be going on. | 23:54 |
| kanzure | the fanboys are hostile | 23:54 |
| kanzure | but I'll have to investigate more closely | 23:54 |
| Phreedom | you don't have to call fanboys hostile. calling them fan boys is enough ;) | 23:56 |
| Phreedom | so really it's a bunch of guys playing a game+ army of misinformed fanboys | 23:57 |
| Phreedom | unless they go ahead and show a replicating design :) | 23:57 |
| kanzure | I don't like the insistence on the "well, 1.0 was met, so ha!" | 23:59 |
| kanzure | isn't that a fallacy | 23:59 |
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