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| kanzure | http://www.google.com/search?q=printing+on+plastic+films | 03:56 |
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| kanzure | Hm. | 16:14 |
| kanzure | I have acquired another box. | 16:14 |
| kanzure | And a small, 15" monitor. | 16:15 |
| kanzure | A really nice set of keys too. | 16:15 |
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| kanzure | Grr. | 16:28 |
| kanzure | IRC needs to have message confirmation. | 16:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.realtimesoft.com/multimon/gallery_browse.asp?ID=168&date=desc&nummon=true&mon=desc <-- Haha. Make it a research project, and the university will fund you, right? :) | 16:28 |
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| kanzure | http://larry-the-sizzlemaster.blogspot.com/2007/08/i-first-met-larry.html | 16:42 |
| kanzure | from http://www.realtimesoft.com/multimon/gallery_browse.asp?ID=142&date=desc&nummon=true&mon=desc | 16:42 |
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| -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: Semi-intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio toolkit: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS perspectives on Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ | 18:02 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Sat Jul 5 23:09:51 2008] | 18:02 | |
| [Users #hplusroadmap] | 18:02 | |
| [ fenn ] [ jm|earth] [ Overand ] [ procto ] [ willPow3r] | 18:02 | |
| [ freer] [ kanzure ] [ Phreedom_] [ Splicer] [ ybit ] | 18:02 | |
| -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 10 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 10 normal] | 18:02 | |
| -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 | 18:03 | |
| -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 34 secs | 18:03 | |
| kanzure | hm | 18:47 |
| kanzure | :) | 18:47 |
| kanzure | freecycle is awesome | 18:47 |
| kanzure | Heh heh. | 19:06 |
| kanzure | I just got off the phone with a guy way the hell up north in Texas who runs his own 'esoteric engineering research laboratory' | 19:06 |
| fenn | what does he research? | 19:06 |
| kanzure | uh, it seems to be everything | 19:06 |
| kanzure | we spent an hour talking beowulfs, ramjets, non object-oriented approaches to physics, vw buses, transmissions, rectifiers, etc. | 19:07 |
| kanzure | his shop is apparently something of a cross between a data center, forge/foundry, and scrap equipment wired up doing interesting things | 19:09 |
| * fenn looks around.. yep sounds familiar | 19:09 | |
| kanzure | diesel alternatives that he has (almost) running in diesel engines | 19:10 |
| kanzure | since apparently he doesn't want to pay for fuel | 19:10 |
| kanzure | he was claiming (1) it's a common household material, (2) a "truck load" would provide a gallon of the finished extract, and (3) it could run in a diesel engine | 19:10 |
| kanzure | that's a bit too little to go looking for what it is that he's been working with | 19:10 |
| fenn | with thermal decomposition technology, that could be anything | 19:11 |
| kanzure | so it's nice to see some local esoteric individuals that might have a clue (or at least a lot of junk)O | 19:12 |
| kanzure | I've been running around the area picking up free stuff on doorsteps from freecycle | 19:12 |
| kanzure | so I have a few more boxes and screens now | 19:12 |
| kanzure | for integration I've been looking at xrandr, xinerama, TwinView, xdmx, synergy, MultiMon, UltraMon, MultiSeat | 19:12 |
| kanzure | it all sucks as far as I can tell, | 19:12 |
| kanzure | xinerama has died | 19:12 |
| kanzure | xrandr isn't functional yet | 19:13 |
| kanzure | xdmx isn't enough | 19:13 |
| kanzure | or something | 19:13 |
| fenn | the whole X project sorta exploded due to politics | 19:13 |
| kanzure | each one has those minor peculiarities that prevent them from actually functioning | 19:13 |
| kanzure | oh? | 19:13 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization | 19:14 |
| fenn | basically, you put trash in a pressure cooker for a half hour | 19:14 |
| kanzure | uhm, so what the hell am I going to do with these monitors | 19:16 |
| kanzure | I guess I could just install Windows 98 and go from there | 19:16 |
| kanzure | since I recall Windows having good multimonitor support | 19:16 |
| fenn | seriously they don't work? i thought for sure this is the sort of thing linux would excel at | 19:17 |
| kanzure | well | 19:19 |
| kanzure | really this is sort of combined experience plus some reading around and seeing the technical problems that others are facing | 19:19 |
| fenn | what do you mean by "combined experience"? | 19:19 |
| kanzure | well, I've fiddled around with xrandr, xinerama and some other stuff before | 19:20 |
| kanzure | and nothing productive ever came out of it | 19:20 |
| kanzure | by luck I have xrandr working at the moment, but it's really not two separate desktops and instead it's just one large continuous screen that spreads over to the other monitor | 19:21 |
| kanzure | (I'm on the laptop) | 19:21 |
| kanzure | I'm willing to fiddle some more, but I'm also worried about the hardware implementation details | 19:22 |
| kanzure | for instance, should I even bother buying three more dualhead video cards? | 19:22 |
| kanzure | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130085 | 19:22 |
| kanzure | EVGA 256-P2-N751-TR GeForce 8600 GT 256MB 128-bit GDDR3 | 19:22 |
| fenn | you can get separate screens by tiling them in a diagonal manner? | 19:22 |
| kanzure | huh? | 19:22 |
| kanzure | wikipedia? | 19:22 |
| fenn | so they only overlap in the corners (not touching at all really) | 19:23 |
| kanzure | i gues | 19:23 |
| kanzure | *guess | 19:23 |
| fenn | your monitors accept dvi? | 19:24 |
| kanzure | "Despite these problems, Xinerama offers two overwhelming advantages over separate X screens (see next section). First, you can move windows between Xinerama screens. Second, a single application can have windows open on the different Xinerama screens at the same time." | 19:24 |
| kanzure | no | 19:24 |
| kanzure | these are all d-sub beasts | 19:24 |
| fenn | then dont get a dvi-only card :P | 19:24 |
| kanzure | comes with a dvi-to-dsub adapter | 19:24 |
| fenn | hmm | 19:25 |
| kanzure | and I have a few spares | 19:25 |
| kanzure | how much video memory do I possibly need | 19:25 |
| kanzure | really I only need one "strong/workhorse" card | 19:25 |
| kanzure | and then a bunch of other small 64 MB cards or something | 19:25 |
| kanzure | for the extra screens and displays | 19:25 |
| kanzure | right? | 19:25 |
| fenn | i have no idea | 19:25 |
| kanzure | and then just hope I can force all 'serious' rendering to the workhorse | 19:26 |
| kanzure | but how the hell do I specify this in my googlings | 19:26 |
| fenn | video cards are so unscientific and anecdotal it's impossible to say anything really | 19:26 |
| kanzure | sucks | 19:26 |
| kanzure | I was looking into the possibility of a PCI extender | 19:26 |
| kanzure | of something that plugs into a PCI slot and gives you another 13 PCI slots | 19:26 |
| kanzure | then just load up with some simple cards | 19:26 |
| fenn | with too many slow pci cards you can have bus contention | 19:27 |
| kanzure | grumble grumble | 19:28 |
| kanzure | what if I just use multiple boxes | 19:28 |
| kanzure | I have enough of these things laying around, it's not a big deal | 19:28 |
| kanzure | but I'd like to be able to pretend on the software end of things that it's all the same system | 19:29 |
| fenn | ssh -CX :P | 19:29 |
| fenn | there must be some vnc hack to do just that | 19:29 |
| kanzure | but then what about that local hdd? | 19:29 |
| fenn | what about it? | 19:29 |
| kanzure | I don't want to have to ssh to access that | 19:30 |
| kanzure | I want it mounted in /mnt/blah on all systems | 19:30 |
| kanzure | or better yet, a sector spanning across multiple physical hdd units | 19:30 |
| kanzure | hrm, a /mnt/ entry is probably good enough | 19:30 |
| fenn | er. ssh -X runs te proces on the remote system and displays it on the local box | 19:30 |
| fenn | so it really is running on one system | 19:30 |
| kanzure | guess I'd have to script up the bootup scripts? | 19:32 |
| kanzure | I don't want to have to manually type out commands each time I want to move a window to a different screen | 19:32 |
| kanzure | sucks | 19:32 |
| kanzure | http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/07/166253 | 19:34 |
| kanzure | meh | 19:37 |
| kanzure | but apparently Tony knows Nicole Yankelovich. | 19:37 |
| kanzure | http://io9.com/5022316/mad-science-contest-build-a-lifeform-and-well-send-you-to-hong-kong-or-give-you-1000 | 19:39 |
| kanzure | meh, if I enter I'll win | 19:43 |
| kanzure | what's the fun in that? | 19:43 |
| kanzure | specifically just throw in the writozyme to bacteria ("UnColi") | 19:44 |
| kanzure | and then just do some fancy illustrations | 19:44 |
| kanzure | need a way to make it "cute" for it to win | 19:47 |
| fenn | "plausibility" bah | 19:47 |
| kanzure | writozyme is plausible :) | 19:47 |
| fenn | if it doesnt exist, it doesnt exist | 19:48 |
| kanzure | hah | 19:48 |
| kanzure | yes, this is a good point | 19:48 |
| fenn | 'please submit all entries in the form of a lifeform' | 19:48 |
| fenn | is what i would put in the rules | 19:48 |
| kanzure | sperm in an envelope | 19:48 |
| fenn | ew | 19:48 |
| kanzure | endlessly amusing | 19:48 |
| fenn | i'm not sure sperm qualifies | 19:49 |
| kanzure | what would make a writozyme-organism interesting | 19:49 |
| kanzure | besides the obvious uses | 19:49 |
| kanzure | it's clear that you will not win just because you're technically righty | 19:49 |
| kanzure | *right | 19:49 |
| kanzure | "diagnostics" or "self-programming" or "programming bacteria without paying a cent" isn't "cute" | 19:50 |
| kanzure | but maybe growing color displays is ? | 19:50 |
| kanzure | not that you're going to get much of a pattern | 19:50 |
| fenn | instant organism-wide genetic immunity | 19:50 |
| kanzure | how is that cute | 19:50 |
| fenn | uh, sorry, what's cute in the context of bacterial colonies? | 19:50 |
| fenn | i have no precedent | 19:51 |
| kanzure | " | 19:51 |
| kanzure | There are two categories in the contest, each with their own prize. The important thing to remember is that this contest is about creating cool new lifeforms that are also, in some way, entertaining. So each entry will be judged for plausibility (i.e. whether it is scientifically justifiable), creativity, usefulness, and entertainment value." | 19:51 |
| kanzure | creativity, usefulness, and entertainment value | 19:51 |
| kanzure | I suspect the emphasis is on entertainment value | 19:51 |
| kanzure | bacteria that pragmatically produce MDMA | 19:51 |
| kanzure | problem solved? | 19:51 |
| fenn | i think that's usefulness not entertainment value | 19:52 |
| fenn | bacteria that speek esperanto | 19:52 |
| fenn | bacteria that download porn into your brain | 19:53 |
| kanzure | bacterial chorus? | 19:53 |
| kanzure | how the hell do you make programming 'of entertaining value' anyway | 19:53 |
| kanzure | http://scratch.mit.edu/ is all that I can think of really | 19:53 |
| kanzure | game programming and such | 19:53 |
| fenn | its not programming, its an art contest | 19:53 |
| kanzure | but the writozyme is about writing | 19:54 |
| fenn | any programming of 'entertainment value' is only of entertainment value to extreme nerds and intellectuals | 19:54 |
| kanzure | brainfuck | 19:54 |
| fenn | therefore, not going to be a winner in a mass media contest | 19:54 |
| fenn | kanzure: if it weren't named brainfuck it wouldnt be funny | 19:54 |
| kanzure | I thought the entertainment value was the ridiculousness of the language and what's involved in actually using it | 19:55 |
| kanzure | hm, what's entertaining anyway? | 19:55 |
| fenn | lolcat language is more genuinely entertaining | 19:55 |
| kanzure | hm | 19:56 |
| fenn | http://lolcode.com/examples | 19:56 |
| kanzure | holy shit | 19:57 |
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| kanzure | but what keeps people entertained | 19:58 |
| kanzure | reading lolcats isn't enough really | 19:58 |
| fenn | you might think that... :( | 19:58 |
| fenn | icanhascheesburger.com proves otherwise | 19:59 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/camera/internet/ I've been down that path before | 19:59 |
| fenn | or whatever the url is | 19:59 |
| kanzure | I think there's a z somewhere in there | 20:00 |
| fenn | icanhascheezburger.com | 20:01 |
| kanzure | "Hey kids! What could be more fun than curing your dad's diabetes?" | 20:03 |
| kanzure | hm | 20:03 |
| kanzure | oh | 20:03 |
| kanzure | here's an idea | 20:03 |
| kanzure | put them inside of a contact lense | 20:04 |
| kanzure | a thin layer of reprogrammable biological photonic filters | 20:04 |
| kanzure | have it secrete certain proteins, and certain wavelengths of light are less likely to come through, for instance | 20:04 |
| kanzure | is that fun? | 20:06 |
| fenn | only if it shows porn | 20:06 |
| fenn | cat halfbakery/*bio* > contest.entry | 20:07 |
| kanzure | heh | 20:07 |
| kanzure | okay, so what the hell is entertaining about bacteria anyway | 20:08 |
| kanzure | anything that will be done with them will be over a long period of time | 20:08 |
| kanzure | for instance, the tic-tac-toe ribozyme system | 20:08 |
| kanzure | took four hours to complete a single move or the game, one of the two | 20:08 |
| kanzure | yes, about 30 minutes per move | 20:08 |
| fenn | that's just because your bio-logic sucks | 20:09 |
| kanzure | nobody has the sustained attention for that to be considered entertainment | 20:09 |
| kanzure | but consider anything else done with biology though | 20:09 |
| kanzure | what the hell is going to be fast enough to be 'fun' | 20:09 |
| kanzure | and 'entertaining' ? | 20:09 |
| fenn | you're missing the point | 20:09 |
| fenn | the contest _entry_ is supposed to be entertaining | 20:09 |
| kanzure | presentation style? | 20:10 |
| kanzure | then it'll be in the form of a mad scientist's monologue for world domination with reprogrammable bacteria | 20:12 |
| kanzure | easy enough | 20:12 |
| kanzure | just turn it into a creative writing exercise | 20:12 |
| kanzure | with inlets/excerpts that explain the actual technical implementation details | 20:12 |
| fenn | really they should be doing this in slashdot style | 20:12 |
| fenn | just post a slashdot article calling for entries :) | 20:12 |
| fenn | i find this interesting for some reason (the general princple of it, not necessarily flavored meats) http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/_22Bio-seasoned_22_20meats#1078074000 | 20:16 |
| fenn | unfortunately GMO is not fashionable today | 20:17 |
| kanzure | halfbakery is not because things are halfbaked, but because things don't die | 20:52 |
| kanzure | reprap is halfbakery | 20:52 |
| kanzure | or *halfbaked | 20:52 |
| kanzure | http://industrycommunity.com/ee/ee-2-next2/messages/301.html monitor schematics on CD ? | 20:54 |
| kanzure | I bet it's just the stuff in the manuals, not anything important | 20:54 |
| kanzure | http://www.industrycommunity.com/myforum/james_whitehouse_next1/index.html | 20:56 |
| kanzure | "$69 DOS controller" | 20:56 |
| kanzure | wtf | 20:56 |
| kanzure | ah, an embedded | 20:57 |
| kanzure | http://machinetools.com/MT/machines/index.tmpl?page=index_country&countryID=CT9984321042268 | 21:01 |
| kanzure | potentially useful ontology? | 21:02 |
| * kanzure is distracted, obviously | 21:02 | |
| kanzure | http://www.altmanmachinery.com/photo.php?stockNumber=7196 <-- wtf? | 21:08 |
| fenn | no, many of those groups overlap | 21:11 |
| fenn | and further, i'd say it's not useful because it's not functionally descriptive | 21:12 |
| fenn | well, not all of the categories | 21:13 |
| kanzure | hrm | 21:13 |
| kanzure | we need a warehouse | 21:13 |
| kanzure | I hear there's some cheap stuff in the Bay Area because of a recently closed military operation | 21:13 |
| fenn | the big dirty thing is a hydraulic press, probably used for punching shapes out of sheet metal | 21:14 |
| fenn | i dont want a warehouse.. part of why i'm interested in hexapods is that they dont require massive investment in infrastructure because of the mass and un-disassemblability | 21:15 |
| fenn | so you can transport without a flatbed trailer | 21:15 |
| fenn | and dont need a warehouse to store | 21:15 |
| fenn | 90% of used machinery cost is shipping | 21:16 |
| fenn | look at http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/ for examples of inexpensive yet hard to ship machinery | 21:17 |
| kanzure | the problem is not knowing what to do -- having examples of functional machinery that does Stuff means you get to have parts to play with to make those them there hexapodders | 21:18 |
| fenn | seems to be, the bigger it is the less it costs | 21:18 |
| kanzure | eh? | 21:18 |
| fenn | for milling machines at least | 21:18 |
| * fenn mumbles about bootstrapping | 21:19 | |
| kanzure | see | 21:20 |
| kanzure | :) | 21:20 |
| kanzure | speaking of that | 21:20 |
| kanzure | I was thinking last night (or really this morning) about some rebootstrapping my digital storage | 21:20 |
| kanzure | photography development is practiced by many people in their own homes | 21:20 |
| kanzure | and optical recording of data should be feasible | 21:21 |
| fenn | so is whittling, embroidery, and calligraphy? | 21:21 |
| fenn | i dont see the connection to bootstrapping | 21:21 |
| kanzure | digital storage without building a giant hdd fabber | 21:21 |
| kanzure | well, analog storage really | 21:21 |
| fenn | microfilm can be digital | 21:21 |
| fenn | but how big is a gigabyte on microfilm | 21:22 |
| kanzure | that's just a space issue -- I'm more worried about read/write and if those actions are possible with homebrew equipment | 21:22 |
| kanzure | especially for digital | 21:22 |
| fenn | define homebrew | 21:22 |
| kanzure | with analog it's obvious we have VCRs that read/write | 21:22 |
| kanzure | well, "not a giant hdd fabber" | 21:22 |
| kanzure | or "not a giant flash mem fabber" | 21:22 |
| fenn | err | 21:22 |
| fenn | can we use transistors? | 21:22 |
| kanzure | giant as in 'multi million dollar fab' | 21:23 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:23 |
| fenn | photodiodes? | 21:23 |
| kanzure | I'd prefer not | 21:23 |
| kanzure | bleh | 21:23 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:23 |
| kanzure | we'd have to have photodiodes, wouldn't we? | 21:23 |
| fenn | i guess you can make a geiger-counter-ish light sensitive tube | 21:23 |
| fenn | cant remember the name now | 21:23 |
| kanzure | photoamplifier? | 21:24 |
| kanzure | light source => project through the film => photoamplifier => typical acoustic equipment (not digital signal processing) | 21:24 |
| fenn | aha - photomultiplier tube | 21:27 |
| kanzure | erm | 21:27 |
| fenn | yes they are expensive to buy but they look simple to construct | 21:28 |
| kanzure | really you just need a way to write, and a way to read, so why not a printer, and why not a flatbed feeder scanner? | 21:28 |
| fenn | ffs man you just said homebrew | 21:28 |
| fenn | scanner != homebrew | 21:28 |
| fenn | why not a hard disk! | 21:29 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:29 |
| kanzure | scanner just needs optical input really, right? | 21:29 |
| kanzure | that's the difficult issue, no? | 21:29 |
| fenn | why not punch cards? | 21:30 |
| fenn | engraved stone tablets | 21:30 |
| kanzure | punch cards work | 21:30 |
| kanzure | I'd stay away from stone tablets | 21:30 |
| kanzure | ah, | 21:30 |
| fenn | 1) define the problem 2) solve the problem | 21:30 |
| kanzure | because punch cards aren't reusable? | 21:30 |
| kanzure | rewritable | 21:30 |
| fenn | well, neither are hard drives (for sufficiently high number of rewrites) | 21:30 |
| fenn | you can "erase" a stone tablet many times | 21:31 |
| kanzure | are oil-water-oil-water stacked emulsions possible? | 21:31 |
| kanzure | just use dyes and shine laser through it | 21:31 |
| fenn | i think that's how CD-R's work | 21:32 |
| kanzure | then have a stack of straws (one straw is a single stack) | 21:32 |
| kanzure | so maybe have 20 straws going in parallel | 21:32 |
| kanzure | and you suddenly have liquid data storage at astonishingly low speeds | 21:32 |
| fenn | amazing | 21:32 |
| fenn | you can also use bubbles | 21:32 |
| kanzure | really? | 21:33 |
| kanzure | oh | 21:33 |
| kanzure | right | 21:33 |
| kanzure | blowing bubbles in a straw | 21:33 |
| fenn | see manu prakash's research on bubble computers | 21:33 |
| kanzure | okay, so the requirements | 21:33 |
| kanzure | read/write machinery is allowed to be 'somewhat' difficult | 21:33 |
| kanzure | the media on which the data is stored must be easily 'synthesized' or constructed from 'everyday materials' | 21:34 |
| kanzure | (DNA doesn't count) | 21:34 |
| kanzure | must be higher density than punch cards / paper-hole-punching | 21:34 |
| kanzure | and maybe also faster :) | 21:34 |
| kanzure | paper is a good medium though because of the easy construction routine | 21:35 |
| kanzure | imagine a long, small strip of paper with single-file tiny holes being fed into an electrical circuit (either completes/shorts the circuit) | 21:36 |
| fenn | yes punch tapes are more efficient than cards, but harder to manipulate without a computer | 21:38 |
| kanzure | so? | 21:43 |
| fenn | that's why they were used | 21:44 |
| fenn | presumably whatever situation that makes use of homebrew data storage and retrieval will have similar constraints | 21:44 |
| kanzure | sure | 21:45 |
| kanzure | btw, the punch tape could just be normal tape, and more appropriately, just paper, and a very sharp pointy stick to write holes | 21:45 |
| kanzure | I wonder how fast we could get it | 21:47 |
| kanzure | blargh, disconnect | 21:47 |
| kanzure | anyway, | 21:47 |
| kanzure | 50k rpm on a centrifuge => 50k rpm on a CD if necessary, | 21:47 |
| fenn | cd's explode at 10krpm | 21:47 |
| kanzure | or a certain holes per minute with paper backup? | 21:47 |
| kanzure | huh | 21:47 |
| kanzure | that sucks | 21:47 |
| fenn | that's why 52x is the fastest you can buy | 21:48 |
| fenn | what about AFM stuff | 21:48 |
| fenn | "stone tablets" :) | 21:49 |
| fenn | now i cant remember the name of the link i posted in here | 21:49 |
| kanzure | http://www.spmtips.com/bibliography/data_storage/ | 21:50 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20070313210126/http://www.spmtips.com/bibliography/data_storage/ | 21:51 |
| fenn | ah yes, "nanochip plans to make MEMS cantilever arrays to store 100GB on a chip by 2010" | 21:52 |
| fenn | their website sucks though, no information | 21:52 |
| kanzure | 'magnetic force microscopy' | 21:53 |
| kanzure | Magnetization reversal processes in perpendicular anisotropy thin films observed with magnetic force microscopy | 21:54 |
| kanzure | J. Schmidt, E. Dan Dahlberg, C. Merton, S. Foss, G. Skidmore | 21:54 |
| kanzure | Journal of Magnetism and Magnetic Materials, 190 (1998), 1-2, 81-88 | 21:54 |
| kanzure | perpendicular magnetic recording? | 21:55 |
| kanzure | what difference does it make, the orientation? | 21:55 |
| fenn | it's more compact, like punching holes in the paper instead of varying the thickness of the paper | 21:55 |
| kanzure | " It is turned out, that application of the AFM is not limited by using it only as a surface characterization technique. Principles of scanning probe microscopy themselves are of growing importance in respect to their possible use for information storage. A cursory glance to the design of read/write system in magnetic hard disk is enough to notice the substantial resemblance with the system of data acquisition in scanning pro | 21:56 |
| kanzure | heh | 21:56 |
| kanzure | ' Bennewitz et al. [1354] discuss the limits of pushing storage density by means of STM to the atomic scale at room temperatures. It was tentatively shown that the smallest possible bit can be coded with a single silicon atom, positioned at lattice sites along self-assembled tracks with a pitch of five atom rows. These tracks were obtained by depositing 0.4 monolayers of gold onto a Si(111) surface at 700° C with a post-anneal | 21:56 |
| fenn | i wonder why it's taken so long to get to the point where people are thinking about afm for data storage | 21:56 |
| kanzure | 'Estimated speed by means of one probe would be of 6·106 points/sec, which is respectable but still slower than today's hard disks. The future speed enhancement could be achieved in application of parallelism to such systems.' | 21:58 |
| kanzure | AFM was only 1986 / Smalley et al. | 21:58 |
| kanzure | 22 years is long enough | 21:58 |
| fenn | well, it doesnt have to be AFM even, just microminiaturized punch cards | 21:59 |
| fenn | it all leads to the same place eventually | 21:59 |
| kanzure | the /dev/null ? | 21:59 |
| fenn | the omega point, silly! | 21:59 |
| kanzure | what's a good writable medium for AFM? Actually, STM might be a better idea -- shoot some electrons at 'em. | 22:00 |
| fenn | uh, rhodopsin? | 22:00 |
| fenn | some kind of natural flip-flop molecule would be preferable to just throwing a bunch of atoms on a surface | 22:01 |
| fenn | a self assembled monolayer of them | 22:01 |
| fenn | gosh i almost sound like i know what i'm talking about | 22:01 |
| kanzure | http://www.cem.msu.edu/~cem181h/projects/96/memory/index.html bacteriorhodoopsin memory | 22:01 |
| fenn | 404 | 22:01 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteriorhodopsin | 22:02 |
| kanzure | 'Protein-coated disc - theoretical data storage capacity of 50 terabytes' | 22:02 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein-coated_disc | 22:02 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20070822031912/http://www.cem.msu.edu/~cem181h/projects/96/memory/index.html | 22:04 |
| kanzure | this is photon based, not electron | 22:04 |
| kanzure | but there are some electron pumps, IIRC | 22:04 |
| kanzure | 'Among the most promising of the new alternatives are photopolymer-based devices, holographic optical memory storage devices, and protein-based optical memory storage using rhodopsin , photosynthetic reaction centers, cytochrome c, photosystems I and II, phycobiliproteins, and phytochrome. This website focuses mainly on protein-based optical memory storage using the photosensitive protein bacteriorhodopsin with the two-photon meth | 22:05 |
| kanzure | 'This website focuses mainly on protein-based optical memory storage using the photosensitive protein bacteriorhodopsin with the two-photon method of exciting the molecules, but briefly describes what is involved in the other two. Bacteriorhodopsin is a light-harvesting protein from bacteria that live in salt marshes that has shown some promise as a feasible optical data storage. The current work is to hybridize this biological | 22:05 |
| fenn | yes but why can't you modulate the tip at the proper frequency? | 22:05 |
| kanzure | what? | 22:05 |
| kanzure | why can't you? | 22:05 |
| kanzure | oh | 22:05 |
| kanzure | shoot photons from the tip? | 22:05 |
| fenn | essentially | 22:05 |
| fenn | anyway, not what i meant | 22:06 |
| fenn | rhodopsin is some protein, i was thinking of retinol | 22:06 |
| fenn | in particular how it flip-flops between states | 22:06 |
| fenn | gah all i get is cosmetics and sandals | 22:07 |
| kanzure | welcome to the web? | 22:07 |
| fenn | anyway, ever play with a barrette? it flip-flops between two states with mechanical pressure, due to its physical structure and the elasticity inherent in its materials | 22:08 |
| fenn | so you have an array of these things sticking up, and your afm tip comes along down the row flipping them left or right | 22:10 |
| kanzure | deja vu | 22:10 |
| kanzure | we've been here before | 22:10 |
| fenn | like bootstrapping your computer through the front panel switches | 22:11 |
| kanzure | I would feel much better about an photoelectrical effect | 22:11 |
| kanzure | or just an electrical effect | 22:11 |
| kanzure | mechanics seems iffy :-/ | 22:11 |
| fenn | its molecular conformational changes actually | 22:11 |
| fenn | seems to work for biology | 22:11 |
| kanzure | how do you make them | 22:11 |
| kanzure | how do you get them sticking up | 22:12 |
| kanzure | and how do you paste em to the board? | 22:12 |
| fenn | 1) ask an organic chemist 2) self assembled monolayers and 3) they stick on their own | 22:12 |
| fenn | this way all the high tech chip-fab mems stuff is in the cantilever array | 22:14 |
| kanzure | oh, it's a protein? | 22:14 |
| kanzure | wikipedia is telling me it might be an amino acid | 22:14 |
| kanzure | the retinol | 22:14 |
| kanzure | uh, and if it's in cosmetics | 22:14 |
| fenn | so you have several orders of magnitude higher data density than a mems flip-flop array | 22:14 |
| kanzure | then we are in luck | 22:14 |
| kanzure | there's a lot of cheap cosmetic products out there | 22:14 |
| kanzure | for testing | 22:14 |
| kanzure | then we can move to bioreactors | 22:14 |
| fenn | retinol is an organic molecule like a fatty acid with some stuff on the end | 22:15 |
| kanzure | doesn't sound frightening | 22:15 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/AFM | 22:16 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/AFM_nanolithography | 22:16 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/instrumentation/instru.html | 22:16 |
| kanzure | http://www.biophysik.physik.uni-muenchen.de/PlasticAFM/ | 22:16 |
| fenn | *wank* | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Project_overview.html | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/07/how_to_build_a_simple_scanning.html | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.bsc.ustc.edu.cn/~jlyang/research/STMWebPage.html | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.stanford.edu/group/quate_group/Litho/LithoPages/ExposureofResist/Hybrid.html | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.bsc.ustc.edu.cn/~jlyang/research/STMWebPage.html | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.lugoj.com/NanotechSTMArticles/HomeBrewSTMs.html | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.e-basteln.de/index_o.htm | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.advancedphysics.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6697 | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://stm2.nrl.navy.mil/how-afm/how-afm.html | 22:17 |
| fenn | please stop | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.lugoj.com/NanotechSTMArticles/HomeBrewSTMs.html | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/07/how_to_build_a_simple_scanning.html | 22:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/ | 22:17 |
| kanzure | bwahahah | 22:17 |
| kanzure | that's all | 22:17 |
| kanzure | my point is that we have the STM/AFM down well enough | 22:17 |
| fenn | no, you dont have the automation for high speed read and write | 22:17 |
| kanzure | *cough* | 22:18 |
| fenn | how fast can one tip read? really | 22:18 |
| kanzure | where the hell is percent_ | 22:18 |
| fenn | it takes like a minute to get a decent picture | 22:18 |
| kanzure | oh dratz | 22:18 |
| kanzure | we were here a few months ago when we were on about piezo tubes | 22:18 |
| kanzure | http://members.misty.com/don/pzfix.html http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/mini_piezo_tweeter.html | 22:19 |
| kanzure | piezo electric film? http://www.imagesco.com/catalog/sensors/film.html | 22:19 |
| kanzure | tubes: http://www.chem.pacificu.edu/Johnson/JohnsonResearch/STM/PIEZO.HTM | 22:19 |
| kanzure | anyway | 22:19 |
| kanzure | we don't need microscopic writing ability | 22:20 |
| kanzure | let's do a velocity of a few mm/sec | 22:20 |
| kanzure | and do very large writing patches | 22:20 |
| kanzure | i.e., not "one bit per atom" but "one bit per mm^2" | 22:20 |
| kanzure | for starters. | 22:20 |
| kanzure | it's an ester reaction http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Vitamin-A-Synthese.png | 22:20 |
| kanzure | what would we be scanning for? | 22:24 |
| kanzure | average roughness? | 22:24 |
| kanzure | of the region for one bit? | 22:24 |
| kanzure | -? | 22:24 |
| * fenn is bored with this conversation | 22:25 | |
| kanzure | really? | 22:25 |
| kanzure | there was a mechanical state | 22:26 |
| kanzure | and this has to be detected somehow | 22:26 |
| kanzure | it was left/right, you mentioned | 22:26 |
| kanzure | at high speeds this would probably look like a grating direction | 22:26 |
| fenn | you scan a row, and if the flip flop is there it shows up as a force on the tip | 22:26 |
| kanzure | how do you determine state? | 22:27 |
| fenn | if it's there or not | 22:27 |
| kanzure | so you write by placing a retinol molecule? | 22:27 |
| fenn | they're in a regular array so you can assume that there is a flip flop in every position | 22:27 |
| fenn | no, forget about retinol | 22:27 |
| fenn | think light switches | 22:28 |
| fenn | you dont turn on a light switch by placing a light switch on the wall | 22:28 |
| kanzure | you complete a circuit? | 22:29 |
| fenn | you move the switch | 22:29 |
| fenn | then you can see that the switch is either up or down | 22:29 |
| kanzure | so there's, what, a few angstroms the molecule moves? | 22:29 |
| fenn | um, i can never remember bond lengths and so forth | 22:30 |
| fenn | more like 10-20 angstroms | 22:30 |
| fenn | but it's an engineering question really | 22:31 |
| fenn | how big do you want it to be | 22:31 |
| kanzure | that wouldn't be an issue if we had the nm-range actuators | 22:32 |
| kanzure | but we don't | 22:32 |
| kanzure | so we need something bigger, something where we can scan a few micrometers at a time | 22:32 |
| fenn | i'm sure there are a zillion and one ways to encode information with an AFM tip | 22:32 |
| kanzure | at that speed I sincerely doubt you can measure angstrom-scale differences | 22:32 |
| fenn | when you say 'scan a few micrometers' does that mean the whole image is a few micrometers across or each "pixel" is a few micrometers? | 22:33 |
| kanzure | the bit is a few micrometers^2 | 22:34 |
| kanzure | until we can get more precise actuators | 22:34 |
| fenn | well, that's still ~1Mbit/mm^2 | 22:35 |
| fenn | micrometers are huge though man | 22:35 |
| fenn | you can do that with an optical microscope | 22:36 |
| fenn | http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/GeetikaKumar.shtml | 22:37 |
| kanzure | how would the optical microscope write? | 22:38 |
| kanzure | Litho? | 22:38 |
| fenn | you know all the hype about blu-ray etc is because of the diffraction limit varies with wavelength | 22:38 |
| fenn | i'm not sure how dvd's are pressed in a factory but dvd-r's use a photosensitive dye | 22:40 |
| fenn | and cd's are just impressions laser etched into a glass plate that gets stamped into plastic | 22:40 |
| kanzure | photosensitive dye sounds like etchants | 22:42 |
| fenn | no, i mean the dye changes color when hit by a laser pulse of enough power | 22:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.provincia.va.it/preziosita/ukvarese/pers/ramelli.htm | 23:33 |
| -!- Phreedom_ [n=freedom@195.216.211.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 23:45 | |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookwheel | 23:57 |
| fenn | has a picture at least | 23:58 |
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