| --- Day changed Fri Aug 15 2008 | ||
| kanzure | odd | 06:01 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | I met somebody today complaining about | 06:01 |
| kanzure | *tonight | 06:01 |
| kanzure | about: | 06:01 |
| kanzure | 1) emc | 06:01 |
| kanzure | 2) papakura | 06:01 |
| kanzure | 3) CADs | 06:01 |
| kanzure | 4) gcode | 06:01 |
| kanzure | I asked him if his name was ben but he said no | 06:01 |
| * kanzure is terribly confused. | 06:02 | |
| bkero | what | 06:04 |
| * bkero 's name is ben | 06:04 | |
| bkero | What's EMC? | 06:04 |
| bkero | I don't know what any of those are besides CADs and Google code? | 06:05 |
| ybit | gcode is for CAD | 06:06 |
| kanzure | bkero: fenn is ben too | 06:07 |
| bkero | o | 06:07 |
| kanzure | EMC is #emc | 06:07 |
| bkero | C is for cookie and that's good enough for me. Fuck, now I want warm gooey cookies. | 06:07 |
| ybit | heh | 06:08 |
| kanzure | emc is linux cnc code | 06:08 |
| kanzure | papakura is the art of folding paper, kind of like origami | 06:08 |
| kanzure | gcode is what CAD software spits out to your machines to actually make your crappy product | 06:08 |
| bkero | Er | 06:09 |
| bkero | I've always used solidworks->toolpathes | 06:09 |
| kanzure | toolpathes? | 06:09 |
| bkero | Then fed that to cnc mills | 06:09 |
| bkero | Yea | 06:09 |
| kanzure | hm | 06:09 |
| kanzure | I think that's kind of like gcode | 06:09 |
| bkero | It's a path an x-axis cnc mill takes to cut your piece | 06:09 |
| kanzure | gcode is more like "move the arm in this direction" | 06:09 |
| kanzure | right | 06:09 |
| bkero | Yes, gcode would be a toolpath then | 06:09 |
| kanzure | Anyway. | 06:10 |
| kanzure | At some point in my life I'm going to get smart enough to stop going to physical meetups to talk about Really Important Problems. Tonight I was talking with an ancient biologist about these Really Important Problems, and he has accumulated this terabyte array of random junk from over the decades. | 06:10 |
| kanzure | And he has no index. | 06:10 |
| bkero | I'm on the solar challenge vehicle team here, and we used solidworks to design the body, then cut the shape out of styrofoam, then male that a mold, and lay fiberglass on top of that to make a compiste. | 06:10 |
| kanzure | basically the same boat that we're all in | 06:10 |
| bkero | *compsite | 06:10 |
| * kanzure has an Austin Electric Vehicle group, if that counts | 06:11 | |
| * bkero has made several electric vehicles. :) | 06:11 | |
| bkero | Although I've seen some awesome shit on austinev | 06:11 |
| kanzure | you're on the mailing list? | 06:11 |
| * bkero drools over electric r | 06:11 | |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mailing_lists.html <-- pick out what you have in common please | 06:11 |
| bkero | *rx7 | 06:11 |
| bkero | I have a lot of friends that work for cafeelectric designing zill acontrollers | 06:12 |
| kanzure | Anyway, he has no index, and he's thinking of making one, and the problem that you come across with natural language indices is that they're just as shitty as the original solution you had. | 06:12 |
| kanzure | Soon enough you'll be doing one of the damn Borges scenarios with indices of indices of indices and you'll never groundtruth your damn experiment or whatever. | 06:12 |
| kanzure | So I think the adequate alternative is to always have the information cached in some real, live brains that are actively working in the same problem space. | 06:12 |
| kanzure | This would be better than just hoping you can go back through 10 terabytes of stolen web pages and papers. | 06:13 |
| bkero | Gave some talks at barcamp, majoring in bioinformatics, I maintain some biosql packages in gentoo, I'm working for google in 2 months building GFS, I work on a fork of pidgin called bitlbee, and do freecycle :P | 06:14 |
| kanzure | Also, the issue of formatted data storage from the sciences came up, and it struck me while I was talking with these guys that we don't actually need to really be storing much information that you go around collecting -- what you need to be storing is the information on how to reconstruct the context in which the measurements were being taken (a.k.a SKDB ;-). | 06:14 |
| kanzure | bkero: Maybe Google would like some of my projects. *cough* Semantic Search Facilitator *cough* AutoScholar http://heybryan.org/projects/autoscholar/ | 06:15 |
| bkero | I've actually been coming up with a keyword-based filesystem. It's non-hierarchical and works off groups, keywords, and tags. | 06:15 |
| kanzure | tagging hurrah | 06:15 |
| kanzure | elias`: this is where you jump in with Enki-2's stuff | 06:15 |
| kanzure | bkero: So you clearly know about Xanadu, right? | 06:15 |
| bkero | I've built xanadu green ;) | 06:15 |
| kanzure | I need a graph theoretic file system | 06:15 |
| kanzure | virtual links aren't quite enough | 06:15 |
| kanzure | I need linkbacks | 06:15 |
| bkero | Haven't had the patience to set up xanadu gold | 06:16 |
| bkero | Two-way links you mean? | 06:16 |
| kanzure | yes | 06:16 |
| * bkero remembers reading nelsons rant against html | 06:16 | |
| kanzure | :) | 06:16 |
| kanzure | One of the other issues that came up tonight was that all of these CAMs/CADs and 3D modeling interfaces all tremendously suck | 06:17 |
| kanzure | Sketchup is apparently an improvement in a few ways or something | 06:17 |
| kanzure | but I'm not convinced. | 06:17 |
| bkero | We both have the same favorite restaurant | 06:17 |
| kanzure | Chili's? | 06:17 |
| bkero | Haha no | 06:18 |
| kanzure | who is we? | 06:18 |
| bkero | It's a little restaurant called The Spinnaker | 06:18 |
| ybit | bkero: i used bitlbee for awhile, and was always complaining the lack of otr support :) | 06:18 |
| bkero | Ted Nelson and I. | 06:18 |
| bkero | ybit: otr? | 06:18 |
| kanzure | ah | 06:18 |
| ybit | off-the-record | 06:18 |
| ybit | www.cypherpunks.ca/otr/ | 06:18 |
| bkero | Oh lol | 06:18 |
| bkero | I don't use jabber enough for that to mater | 06:18 |
| bkero | *xmpp | 06:18 |
| kanzure | :) | 06:18 |
| * kanzure goes to wake up jer | 06:18 | |
| kanzure | Anyway, it occured to me tonight that you need to give the finger to 3D visualization/artistic interfaces | 06:19 |
| kanzure | that's totally the wrong way to do it | 06:19 |
| kanzure | you can't just magically hope that anything you draw can be directly correlated to the manufacturing processes | 06:19 |
| kanzure | that's the /wrong/ way to go about doing this | 06:19 |
| kanzure | it's of course the one that intuitively makes sense though | 06:19 |
| kanzure | since you draw what you want, right? | 06:20 |
| bkero | But it's not about doing it the right way, it's about disassociating 3d modeling with physical instantiation. | 06:20 |
| kanzure | and then it's the engineer's fault for not making it happen | 06:20 |
| kanzure | :p | 06:20 |
| bkero | Because 3d modeleres don't work CNC machines. | 06:20 |
| kanzure | right, they generate the instructions to compile it into the form that the machines can work with | 06:20 |
| * bkero apologises for his typos, he had a glass of wine in celebration of his accomplishments. | 06:20 | |
| kanzure | but you see, it's not 3D modeling that we really want | 06:21 |
| bkero | The 3d modelers design valid objects that fit in 3d space with a slight hint of manufacturing optimization. | 06:21 |
| kanzure | it's not "3D space" it's "API space for the machines" or something | 06:21 |
| kanzure | aka you don't have a universal fabricator on the other end of your fabrication toolchain | 06:22 |
| bkero | We've built self-replicating machines :) | 06:22 |
| kanzure | cells | 06:22 |
| kanzure | not reprap | 06:22 |
| kanzure | don't give me the reprap bullshit | 06:22 |
| kanzure | :) | 06:22 |
| bkero | lol | 06:22 |
| bkero | It's so fun to blame the TSA for destroying it though. | 06:22 |
| kanzure | Hm? | 06:22 |
| bkero | After the makers faire the TSA destroyed it | 06:23 |
| bkero | While shipping | 06:23 |
| ybit | wine, yum | 06:25 |
| bkero | http://feeds.boingboing.net/~r/boingboing/iBag/~3/350879029/tsa-destroys-the-rep.html | 06:25 |
| bkero | It's some of that Yellow Tail Merlot | 06:25 |
| kanzure | bkero: The goal of SKDB is mostly to make a self-replicating machine the right way. | 06:25 |
| bkero | Not bad for a $10 bottle of wine. Definitely better than the $2.50 bottle I bought last time(I wanted to know what SUPEr cheap shitty wine tasted like) | 06:25 |
| kanzure | What we're doing is sifting through metadata of manufacturing processes to look for "dependency loops" that represent self-replicating processes. | 06:25 |
| bkero | Wouldn't you just get a lot of recursion that way? | 06:26 |
| ybit | bebo vino tinto para mi cumpleaños... just a few days ago | 06:27 |
| kanzure | bebo vino tinto? | 06:27 |
| ybit | i drunk red wine | 06:27 |
| ybit | (for my bday) | 06:27 |
| kanzure | http://papers.cnl.salk.edu/PDFs/23%20Problems%20in%20Systems%20Neuroscience%202005-2921.pdf | 06:27 |
| bkero | Wouldn't that be roja? | 06:27 |
| kanzure | That's what I would think. | 06:28 |
| ybit | not sure if that is acceptable, but red is most always pronounced tinto when referring to wine | 06:29 |
| bkero | http://staff.osuosl.org/~bkero/lolreprap.png | 06:29 |
| ybit | perhaps any liquid | 06:29 |
| kanzure | Boing Boing lies | 06:30 |
| * ybit is n00b spanish speaker | 06:30 | |
| kanzure | I was pissed off when they started passing that press release around | 06:30 |
| ybit | heh | 06:30 |
| bkero | Heh | 06:30 |
| ybit | (laughing at image) | 06:30 |
| bkero | What else does it need? To supply it's own fuel? | 06:30 |
| kanzure | bkero: let's start with actually self-replicating | 06:30 |
| ybit | is reading #hplusroadmap log | 06:31 |
| kanzure | for instance, the microcontroller | 06:31 |
| kanzure | all of those fabricational processes are linear | 06:31 |
| kanzure | and not "self-replicating" and therefore the overall design is not self-replicating | 06:31 |
| bkero | You're referring to the procedures in the microcontroller? | 06:32 |
| kanzure | No, the manufacturing required to make the microcontroller. | 06:32 |
| bkero | So you're talking about outside sources of inputs. | 06:33 |
| kanzure | Inputs to what? | 06:33 |
| kanzure | you have to actually *build the thing first* | 06:34 |
| kanzure | and you haven't ... | 06:34 |
| kanzure | s/you/they/ | 06:34 |
| bkero | Inputs for replication | 06:34 |
| bkero | You're going to have to build something before it can self-replicate. It's going to require some outside influence to bootstrap itself. | 06:36 |
| kanzure | Correct. | 06:36 |
| bkero | So you're saying that the reprap folks haven't built something that can create another of itself? | 06:36 |
| kanzure | In a self-replicating system, such as an organism, the inputs are the materials that literally build the components required to process the inputs. This is not occuring in RepRap -- the materials required to build a microcontroller are not being dealt with at all. They're just hand-waved. | 06:36 |
| kanzure | It certainly does thermoplastic .. I can't argue with that. | 06:37 |
| kanzure | nor will I :) | 06:37 |
| bkero | But it still requires external influence(IE replenishing parts supply) | 06:37 |
| kanzure | What? | 06:38 |
| bkero | So you're saying the inputs for a self-replicating system are components TO build them, not to build them out of? | 06:40 |
| kanzure | rephrase | 06:40 |
| bkero | You're saying that the inputs for a self-replicating system are used by the progenitor as tools to build the new organism? | 06:42 |
| bkero | would you count mitosis as self-replication? | 06:42 |
| kanzure | I think so, yes. | 06:43 |
| kanzure | the problem with saying it that way is that it's harder to thnk about | 06:43 |
| kanzure | *think about | 06:43 |
| kanzure | heh' | 06:43 |
| bkero | I think the reprap guys took another angle. | 06:43 |
| kanzure | rapid prototyper hacked into something it's not? | 06:44 |
| bkero | They viewed self-replicating as all of the inputs are assembled to create a copy of itself | 06:44 |
| bkero | Rapid prototyper saying "Look! We can make it make itself!" | 06:44 |
| kanzure | but they can't | 06:46 |
| kanzure | it's not "making" | 06:46 |
| kanzure | the "making" is the manufacturing | 06:46 |
| bkero | It does make itself, but they have the replication part in the wrong spot. | 06:47 |
| bkero | Have you done anything in regards to biological computing? | 06:48 |
| bkero | One prototype is constructed from leech neurons, and is capable of performing simple arithmetic operations. | 06:49 |
| * bkero wants some biological logic gates and transistors. | 06:49 | |
| kanzure | Winfree's lab? | 06:51 |
| kanzure | :) | 06:51 |
| * kanzure was working on that in the lab here at UT | 06:51 | |
| kanzure | DNA logic gates called 'transcriptional switches' | 06:51 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Wittig_cohort | 06:51 |
| bkero | Sweet | 06:52 |
| kanzure | they are terribly slow and do everything *but* computation | 06:53 |
| kanzure | http://ellingtonlab.org/ | 06:54 |
| kanzure | we were going to use them for molecular manufacturing and "online logic" for turning Turing patterns into crystalline structures during PCR | 06:54 |
| kanzure | but anyway .. | 06:54 |
| kanzure | http://www.theonion.com/content/video/pentagons_unmanned_spokesdrone | 06:59 |
| kanzure | ^ that's worth the time | 06:59 |
| bkero | brb landlord is keeping me at the olympics | 07:00 |
| kanzure | hm ... http://www.theonion.com/content/video/study_most_children_strongly <-- you know, the kids are actually right | 07:18 |
| kanzure | just not for the reasons these guys propose :) | 07:19 |
| ybit | kanzure, an update on your open-rtms project? | 07:53 |
| kanzure | NEED PARTS | 08:17 |
| kanzure | please give | 08:17 |
| kanzure | heh' | 08:17 |
| kanzure | uhm, but I actually need to continue to collect papers really | 08:18 |
| kanzure | and then do a massive paper review :) | 08:18 |
| kanzure | there's a few that I neglected | 08:18 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/open-rtms/stuff_to_get.txt | 08:18 |
| bkero | Nice shopping list | 08:22 |
| kanzure | :) | 08:22 |
| kanzure | the list was Superkuh's doing | 08:22 |
| kanzure | actually | 08:22 |
| kanzure | it was an extraction of his directory of papers | 08:22 |
| kanzure | he already had them, but since he's limiting himself to 10 kbps I figured it'd be faster to just go get them myself | 08:23 |
| kanzure | http://www.innerspacefoundation.org/advisers.htm | 09:26 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HeUixe_Lpg water printer | 09:46 |
| kanzure | http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/12655 the boy mechanic - 700 (dangerous?) things for boys to do | 09:48 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/2008-08-15.html | 09:58 |
| kanzure | http://villagetelco.org/ 'an easy-to-use, scalable, standards-based, wireless, local, do-it-yourself, telephone company toolkit' | 12:00 |
| kanzure | http://scyourway.nacse.org/conference/selection | 14:15 |
| kanzure | I wonder if I can skip out on some school for this | 14:15 |
| kanzure | haha | 14:20 |
| kanzure | $600 in fees | 14:20 |
| kanzure | retarded | 14:20 |
| kanzure | Hm. I need a faculty sponsor. | 14:23 |
| kanzure | fenn: suppose you're to give the finger to 3D modeling interfaces across all of the many applications and uses | 17:19 |
| kanzure | what's the alternative? | 17:19 |
| kanzure | I don't recall anything from history that served as a precursor to people saying "hey, let's make a gui for all of this!" really ... it was almost immediately that people went from "have the architect draw it out on paper" to "woah, what if he could do this on a computer" | 17:20 |
| bkero | You're referring to the parts of the application that aren't the 2d representation of a 3d scene? | 17:48 |
| kanzure | No, I don't think so. | 17:48 |
| kanzure | it's not a '3d scene' | 17:48 |
| kanzure | stop thinking jaa | 17:48 |
| kanzure | *java | 17:48 |
| bkero | I don't know java. | 17:48 |
| kanzure | s/java/OOP/ | 17:48 |
| kanzure | Just as the map is not the territory, you really only need to be specifying constraints on the design space more than anything | 17:49 |
| kanzure | but people don't think like this | 17:49 |
| kanzure | they just draw a cup or something | 17:49 |
| bkero | Aren't vector graphics about specifying constraints on design space? | 17:50 |
| kanzure | Nope. They're about actual lines that are transmitted to the CNC machines to "make it happen". | 17:50 |
| bkero | If you want to do that you can just do modeling in toolpath applications. :P | 17:50 |
| bkero | Sorry, CAM software | 17:51 |
| kanzure | Have you ever done non-3D modeling, like in a mathematical or computational sense? | 17:51 |
| kanzure | There's a distinct difference that's worth noting. The 3D modeling stuff is kind of like telling yourself lies. | 17:51 |
| bkero | I've done extradimensional modeling using POGL before. | 17:51 |
| kanzure | of what? | 17:52 |
| kanzure | oh, you mean 3D modeling | 17:52 |
| kanzure | eerm | 17:52 |
| kanzure | I mean, you mean "using the GPU" | 17:52 |
| kanzure | heh' | 17:52 |
| bkero | For display purposes | 17:53 |
| bkero | Modeling hypercubes :P | 17:53 |
| kanzure | Surely you've played with differential equations before? | 17:53 |
| bkero | Sure | 17:53 |
| kanzure | That's a form of modeling. | 17:53 |
| bkero | Ok | 17:54 |
| kanzure | When you draw a random curve in your CAD app, it's not the same thing as drawing a curve in your diff-eq solver because in the mathematical context you have axioms and general rules of topology or mapping between various types of numbers, real or otherwise, and whatever else you require. In CAD, you ignore all of that stuff and just kinda say "hey, this didn't turn out like I wanted it, wahh". all seems like a hack .. | 17:56 |
| bkero | Such models don't have to follow physical laws, but have to obey most mathematical laws | 17:57 |
| bkero | (IE you can't have negative absolute space) | 17:57 |
| -!- Splicer is now known as biopunk | 20:19 | |
| bkero | hplus | 21:13 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
