| --- Day changed Sun Aug 31 2008 | ||
| kanzure | argh | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | somebody pm'd me asking me "okay, I actually have resources and tools ... what the hell are people really supposed to *do* with this damned kit?" | 00:07 |
| pks | which kit? | 00:08 |
| kanzure | http://biohack.sf.net/ | 00:09 |
| kanzure | biotech toolkit thingy | 00:09 |
| pks | iirc there's a tonnnn of stuff in there | 00:10 |
| kanzure | yep | 00:10 |
| kanzure | he wants to know how to be enhanced | 00:11 |
| pks | lol... | 00:11 |
| pks | well | 00:11 |
| pks | who doesn't | 00:11 |
| kanzure | the problem is that there's no quantification of enhancement | 00:11 |
| kanzure | and my general disbelief in the existence of intelligence | 00:12 |
| kanzure | hm | 00:14 |
| kanzure | maybe I could consider "intelligence" in the context of "ability to design better thingies" and then take a limiting context, such as skdb and the parts available to the local thinker, and then say that intelligence can be quantified within these constraints | 00:14 |
| kanzure | but freeform intelligence ... eh | 00:14 |
| kanzure | hey, that sounded moderately intelligent | 00:29 |
| kanzure | cool | 00:29 |
| kanzure | (it passed the "come back 10 minutes later" test) | 00:29 |
| ybit | hehe | 00:56 |
| kanzure | "you constructing ways and technologies which are far out of our horizon" | 00:57 |
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| willPow3r | skdb == serial killer database? | 11:35 |
| nsh | sexual kinetics database | 11:35 |
| willPow3r | fucking krispy kreme hoes never get my order right | 11:36 |
| willPow3r | which is further evidence to support my hypothesis that humanity is doomed | 11:38 |
| kanzure | huh | 11:52 |
| kanzure | Bill Nye is back | 11:52 |
| kanzure | 'Nye was also the assistant of Emmett "Doc" Brown in the live-action segments of Back to the Future: The Animated Series (1991–1993). In one episode, Bill corrected Doc Brown on the pronunciation of gigawatt (not jigawatt), only for Doc Brown to fire back with "Who are you, Bill Nye the science guy?". ' | 11:57 |
| * kanzure totally missed that | 11:57 | |
| kanzure | also, that disc is in the cd tray at the moment | 11:57 |
| kanzure | hey, has anyone ever seen a bash and pipelining implementation where programs have to specify the format of the parameters? | 13:16 |
| kanzure | wait, wouldn't a python shell do that? | 13:28 |
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| kanzure | Hey Depucelator | 14:32 |
| Depucelator | Hey Bryan | 14:35 |
| kanzure | http://shell.appspot.com/ interactive server-side shell for google apps? | 14:35 |
| Depucelator | I've never used the google app engine; it's only for use with python? | 14:37 |
| Depucelator | ugh, I hate python | 14:38 |
| kanzure | why? | 14:40 |
| Depucelator | whitespace sensitivity mostly | 14:40 |
| kanzure | they say you'll learn to love that | 14:40 |
| * kanzure hasn't... yet. | 14:40 | |
| Depucelator | I was trying to run this python app on linux, and was getting some cryptic error that really made no sense whatsoever | 14:41 |
| Depucelator | and after hours of trying to get it to work, I accidentally converted all the windows linebreaks to unix linebreaks | 14:41 |
| Depucelator | and it ran perfectly | 14:42 |
| Depucelator | That, to me, is insane in the year 2008 | 14:43 |
| kanzure | So I was talking with a guy last night who was asking me what to actually do with the biotech toolkit, what "enhancements" to the human body could be made. He claimed to have money and resources, tools and materials. I'm sure he was lying right out of his ass, but that's not the point .. | 14:47 |
| kanzure | It seems hard to convince people that you're not going to be able to guarantee "enhancements", just as you can't guarantee a weight loss program will work. | 14:47 |
| kanzure | well, there's some metabolism that I'm sure you could guarantee if you investigate their biochemistry enough I suppose | 14:47 |
| kanzure | but that's not the point | 14:47 |
| kanzure | The genotype of alterations doesn't necessarily correlate with a phenotype at all ... so that's why you have to focus on the infrastructure to keep playing around with the genotypes, no matter the phenotype. But it's hard to convert this directly into action since you can't say "well, our goal is to get tools and .. do stuff." | 14:48 |
| kanzure | I'm not sure how to show these types of people this .. | 14:48 |
| kanzure | fenn, not even an operating system has a full 'inventory management system' other than people just remembering where the important directories are .. have there been alternative implementations ? I'm trying to think up some analogies, but none are coming to mind. | 14:49 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Data_Interchange | 15:12 |
| Depucelator | there was a story about EDIFACT on The Daily WTF just the other day | 15:13 |
| Depucelator | it was pretty funny | 15:13 |
| kanzure | http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Unix-With-QuikBill!.aspx | 15:16 |
| Depucelator | yeah that's the one | 15:16 |
| kanzure | "“As I’m sure you’re aware,” the presenter spoke as he advanced the slide in the presentation, “our primary focus at Enterprise Business Systems is to enable our clients to formulate key objectives through strategic initiatives to develop a comprehensive strategy that will provide the critical foundation for creating a proactive, synergy-driven directive for utilizing technological approaches to achieve cross-departmental…”" | 15:18 |
| kanzure | that's classic :) | 15:18 |
| kanzure | "“Oh,” the trainer responded, “actually, all that API tech stuff is in the back of the binder.” That answer was quite possibly the only worthwhile bit of information Simon had gotten from the entire day. But it was worth it: at least now he knew where to start." | 15:19 |
| kanzure | awesome | 15:19 |
| kanzure | 'On a tour of the offices, Simon got a chance to see how the accounts payable department worked. When a QuikBill client sends a bill over the modem, the server translates the EDIFACT message to a fixed-column formatted file and saved to disk. A printer then picks up the formatted file and prints the invoice on a form. From there, an accounts payable clerk takes the form off the printer and types it in to their voucher system to be paid.' | 15:21 |
| kanzure | How sad. | 15:22 |
| Depucelator | Wooden table phenomenon | 15:23 |
| kanzure | Hm? | 15:23 |
| Depucelator | the site is the source of endless new terms | 15:23 |
| Depucelator | "the wooden table phenomenon" originates from an article about a school website whose pages are digital camera pictures of a printout on a wooden table of the web site pages | 15:24 |
| Depucelator | which is sadly not far from some of the shit they pull at my workplace | 15:24 |
| kanzure | but how else are you going to make a secure website except by taking a photograph of it? | 15:25 |
| kanzure | I mean, if it works for the mafia holding hostages | 15:25 |
| kanzure | then why not here? | 15:25 |
| Depucelator | one time I received the "source codes" for a program that was printed out, photocopied, scanned in and then each page converted to a PDF file and emailed to me | 15:25 |
| kanzure | wtf? | 15:25 |
| Depucelator | ha ha ha for dynamic webpages they should automatically print out the web page and take a digital camera snapshot of it and upload it to the user | 15:26 |
| kanzure | :) | 15:26 |
| Depucelator | the best ever was this guy who backed up his website by saving them individually while browsing through the inbuilt FTP client in internet explorer | 15:27 |
| Depucelator | except when IE saves webpages, it saves the URL they were saved from as a comment in the page | 15:27 |
| Depucelator | and the urls were all ftp://username:password@domain.com/website.htm | 15:27 |
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| Depucelator | en puhu suomea | 15:31 |
| Depucelator | anteeksi | 15:31 |
| nsh | sen on tyhma kieli | 15:54 |
| nsh | *se | 15:54 |
| Depucelator | oh okay, well that clears things up | 15:54 |
| * nsh chuckles at above ie ftp story | 15:55 | |
| * kanzure cries at above ie ftp story | 16:07 | |
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| nsh | ETOOMUCHFAITHINHUMANITY | 16:30 |
| nsh | remember: a cynic is harder to disappoint | 16:31 |
| kanzure | ETOO? | 16:33 |
| kanzure | also, what if we apply the "trade through many traders" ideas about ebay (if ebay was really doing what it's supposed to be doing) to procurement and material acquisiton ? that way, a designer sitting behind the graphs and design studio can see relative likelihood of people pitching in the materials and such that are required to make something Really Happen | 16:34 |
| kanzure | Eventually you'd think I'd come to think that maybe it's /me/ who is wrong after so many other people 'doin it wrong' but evidently this hasn't happened yet. | 16:35 |
| willPow3r | change to deeply ingrained social process does not come quickly | 16:36 |
| kanzure | nope, this doesn't really need that | 16:36 |
| kanzure | I think it would just as easily apply on a scale of 10 people as >10 | 16:37 |
| kanzure | *as it would to >10 | 16:37 |
| willPow3r | then start a $multi-million company | 16:37 |
| kanzure | What? | 16:37 |
| kanzure | what are you on about? | 16:37 |
| willPow3r | do an implementation of ebay that caters to the needs of corporations | 16:38 |
| kanzure | willPow3r: it's ridiculously easy to code up ebay | 16:38 |
| kanzure | the implementation isn't the hard part | 16:39 |
| willPow3r | then what is? it takes the guesswork out of bidding for materials | 16:39 |
| kanzure | the hardwork is the social network and convincing people that it's useful | 16:40 |
| kanzure | they don't just magically download and install :-) | 16:40 |
| willPow3r | thats why you would need somebody who's good w/ the business end | 16:40 |
| kanzure | besides, I'm sure there's already an (analogous) "ebay-to-AutoCAD" plugin | 16:41 |
| kanzure | eh? | 16:41 |
| kanzure | this /is/ the business though | 16:41 |
| kanzure | sigh | 16:41 |
| willPow3r | nm | 16:42 |
| willPow3r | i'll just steal your idea then | 16:42 |
| kanzure | maybe I'm missing something, but a business guy can't do anything that I can't | 16:42 |
| kanzure | it's not like he's magical | 16:42 |
| kanzure | so however he acquires a network should be the same for me | 16:43 |
| kanzure | no? | 16:43 |
| willPow3r | to throw a sales pitch, all you need is an abstract of the technology and a "why this is good for you" | 16:43 |
| kanzure | people seriously go for this sort of thing ? | 16:43 |
| willPow3r | if it would save a corporation lots of money, manpower, and time | 16:43 |
| willPow3r | they would | 16:43 |
| willPow3r | you would charge them for the ability to use it | 16:44 |
| willPow3r | a nominal fee | 16:44 |
| kanzure | the thing is that this wouldn't save them money at first because nobody is on the 'system' of dumping files on their server stating what they have for search engines to find | 16:44 |
| kanzure | or for them to have their daemons for strategic "deal bidding" (of course, not automatic -- humans have to review the deals or something) | 16:44 |
| willPow3r | that's the tricky part, i suppose | 16:44 |
| kanzure | yeah, but they're charging for "nothing" | 16:44 |
| willPow3r | it would probably take some effort to begin with, but the ends are worth it, imo | 16:45 |
| kanzure | btw, I hear Chinese factories (for instance) are highly competitive to the point of doing thorough background checks on all of their customers just to make sure they're not their competitor factories in disguise trying to figure out pricing | 16:45 |
| kanzure | yeah, the ends are definitely worthwhile of course | 16:45 |
| kanzure | so having an automatic system for "making deals" from the designer's point of view (feasability checking and such) would scare them shitless | 16:46 |
| willPow3r | you could take that guesswork out of the problem for the procurement side | 16:46 |
| willPow3r | analogous to ebay, it would be like buyer's feedback ratings | 16:46 |
| willPow3r | company profiles, etc | 16:46 |
| kanzure | on ebay you still see the pricing no matter what | 16:47 |
| kanzure | that's what they are worried about (IIRC) | 16:47 |
| willPow3r | and it would make a more global system of capitalism | 16:47 |
| willPow3r | ie, free market economy | 16:47 |
| kanzure | I don't know how unstable their businesses must be, | 16:47 |
| kanzure | but if a few cents of difference between prices between competitors makes such a big difference | 16:48 |
| kanzure | or they're worried that much | 16:48 |
| kanzure | maybe they have other problems to deal with ? | 16:48 |
| kanzure | heh' | 16:48 |
| willPow3r | on a large scale, a few cents difference when purchasing, say, thousands of tons of materials, makes a notable difference | 16:49 |
| kanzure | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V20-4B3JVBN-1&_user=108429&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000059713&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=108429&md5=821c16c4f14ccf5ebaf5c7dbb304df38 | 16:49 |
| kanzure | 'Enabling information sharing between E-commerce systems for construction material procurement' | 16:49 |
| kanzure | right | 16:49 |
| kanzure | so they have strong incentive not to do this | 16:50 |
| kanzure | but from the procurement side, it's better if you can see prices more quickly, no? | 16:50 |
| willPow3r | its is | 16:50 |
| willPow3r | thats the point | 16:51 |
| kanzure | imagine designing a new thingy, say a car, and adding a new exhaust pipe and immediately seeing the rework on the factory floor that would be needed, as well as new material costs, etc. | 16:51 |
| willPow3r | and it allows the suppliers to be more competitive | 16:51 |
| kanzure | there might be enough pressure if everyone does it | 16:51 |
| kanzure | but | 16:51 |
| kanzure | since there's finite resources, these material suppliers and so on can easily be a monopoly | 16:51 |
| kanzure | no? | 16:51 |
| willPow3r | with the current system, yea | 16:52 |
| kanzure | so they could just ignore the market forces. | 16:52 |
| kanzure | wtv | 16:52 |
| kanzure | wtf | 16:52 |
| kanzure | I just said 'market forces' | 16:52 |
| willPow3r | with a visible auction-style format, there would be no real possibility of monopoly | 16:54 |
| willPow3r | it would even allow small companies to participate | 16:54 |
| willPow3r | and would definitely spur development of more efficient production processes | 16:54 |
| willPow3r | more $$ would be dumped into research to remain competitive | 16:55 |
| willPow3r | among sellers | 16:55 |
| willPow3r | but the beauty of the system is that goods would be bought by a company, processed to make new goods, then resold on the same system | 16:56 |
| willPow3r | but then again, this idea does reek of utopian miasma | 16:56 |
| kanzure | really it's just XML files on a web server or something | 16:56 |
| kanzure | and RSS informing designers of new tools or materials to incorporate into the "CAD alternative" (I'm thinking the graph grammar methodology is a way to do it without "draw a line" to represent edges of the final product, etc.) | 16:57 |
| kanzure | possibly also pingback servers to tell them of potential deals that are forming | 16:57 |
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| willPow3r | right, the whole system could be modular | 16:58 |
| kanzure | what I like about it is that broke people :-) such as myself :-) wouldn't have to worry about the actual resources since it's a "press here to make it happen" system where others can donate money or resources to the cause | 16:58 |
| kanzure | so it's a finite/staggard system of 'doing stuff' heh | 16:58 |
| * kanzure isn't actually all that broke | 16:59 | |
| * kanzure assumes he is, though | 16:59 | |
| willPow3r | it looks good on paper | 16:59 |
| kanzure | what does? | 16:59 |
| willPow3r | global auction-style e-commerce | 16:59 |
| kanzure | it also looks good on the screen .. software's been doing this for ages, except without the commerce aspects really | 17:00 |
| kanzure | I don't know if you would call it that, the auctions aren't all that centralized of course | 17:00 |
| willPow3r | i'm thinking of an ebay analog that connects buyers with sellers | 17:03 |
| kanzure | Phreedom: We were talking the other day about a designer behind this hypothetical system making, say, the designs for the engines of some particular car. This would be the general 'makefile' including the CFD calculations for all sorts of minor adjustments and simulation of the engine. | 17:03 |
| kanzure | Then, designers could do all of the pretty graphical stuff and "draw a car". So for the "engine engineering" aspect, could you imagine that being done from a "sea of processes" (*not* a sea of "parts") from which the engineer selects from? Does this make sense to you? | 17:03 |
| willPow3r | it would definitely bring about more connections | 17:03 |
| kanzure | no, there's already that, sort of | 17:04 |
| kanzure | I'm not interested in doing another ebay | 17:04 |
| kanzure | ebay is centralized | 17:04 |
| kanzure | the alternative would be more like bit torrent ;-) | 17:04 |
| kanzure | this way, businesses get to keep their servers to themselves | 17:04 |
| kanzure | their information is completely under their control | 17:04 |
| kanzure | could just be a box sitting in a corner of course | 17:04 |
| kanzure | or hosted somewhere else out on the net | 17:05 |
| kanzure | think of the RSS aggregator sites and what they do .. that's been done with some priceshopper-dot-coms before, but it's not as "open" as it could be | 17:05 |
| willPow3r | oh, i see | 17:06 |
| willPow3r | like google shopping | 17:06 |
| kanzure | uhm, well, I'm pretty sure they are automated | 17:06 |
| kanzure | I'd hate to learn that they're being done by hand | 17:06 |
| * kanzure goes back to check the daily wtf | 17:06 | |
| willPow3r | google product search or amazon even | 17:07 |
| kanzure | that's posisble | 17:07 |
| kanzure | but think more of the torrent search engines I guess | 17:07 |
| kanzure | and trackers. | 17:08 |
| * willPow3r wonders if google product search works for raw materials | 17:08 | |
| willPow3r | right, a custom system | 17:09 |
| kanzure | semantic search for raw materials is the wrong way to do it | 17:10 |
| kanzure | instead, the information should be packaged into the units that can be installed into the developer's IDE thingy | 17:10 |
| kanzure | or CAD thingy | 17:10 |
| kanzure | so if you see a new company on the net that offers a zip file of their materials or something, go download it, and then you can incorporate that into your designs and you can see some new possible connections between different processes | 17:10 |
| kanzure | like | 17:11 |
| kanzure | "hey, I finally have that silver I needed! hurrah" | 17:11 |
| willPow3r | right | 17:11 |
| willPow3r | but the point is that the sellers of goods will see what the prices of other sellers is | 17:11 |
| willPow3r | and will be able to drop prices/innovate/etc to remain competitive | 17:12 |
| willPow3r | so what i'm proposing is something that will allow corporations to have multiple possible places of procurement, saving them money | 17:13 |
| willPow3r | and, by owning this system, i would make $$$ | 17:13 |
| willPow3r | because that's really the whole point of starting a business | 17:13 |
| willPow3r | you could add on the CAD plugins as a selling point | 17:14 |
| kanzure | oh, what I was thinking of was the "bedroom programmer model" where you wait until enough people donate and then you release your product thingy | 17:16 |
| kanzure | so here it would be that except more automated and the suppliers could feel more confident they aren't getting a bad deal off of their materials | 17:16 |
| willPow3r | you mean investors? | 17:16 |
| kanzure | no, this was specifically mentioned on Slashdot and other sites re: doing some sort of reputation stunts by doing stuff for free, building users and having your fanbase pay your way for your Next Great Thing | 17:17 |
| kanzure | oh | 17:18 |
| kanzure | Phreedom: sorry, that was a stupid question | 17:18 |
| kanzure | any "process" or "ecology of processes" can be modeled by graphs | 17:18 |
| kanzure | see the entire field of ecology or thermodynamic work flows etc. | 17:18 |
| * kanzure grabs a bite to eat. | 17:18 | |
| kanzure | guess that doesn't mean it's easy to design such things though | 17:23 |
| kanzure | for example, let's take http://www.processengr.com/images-css/Simulation_Project_Diagrams/refinery_flare_capacity.gif | 17:24 |
| kanzure | or other things listed on the 'process simulation' page - http://www.processengr.com/simprojects.html#sim_proj_fumeincenrecov | 17:24 |
| kanzure | it's just a giant system of equations, so I suppose if you start with two "big equations" you can always connect them with intermediate steps that the computer should be able to solve | 17:25 |
| kanzure | after all, this is what Mathematica is supposedly good at, no ? | 17:25 |
| kanzure | don't know if mathematica works with units though | 17:25 |
| kanzure | but the point is still there. | 17:25 |
| Phreedom | kanzure_: eh? | 17:38 |
| kanzure | blah? | 17:38 |
| kanzure | you don't remember our conversation? | 17:38 |
| Phreedom | oh | 17:39 |
| Phreedom | sorry didn't see the question | 17:39 |
| Phreedom | reading now :) | 17:39 |
| kanzure | reading's good | 17:39 |
| Phreedom | kanzure_: ok. I really should write some minimal explanation of what I'm up to | 17:40 |
| Phreedom | I'll do it shortly | 17:40 |
| kanzure | is it similar to this? | 17:40 |
| Phreedom | similar | 17:40 |
| kanzure | Don't leave me hanging .. | 17:41 |
| Phreedom | really it's better explained in a coherent short doc than a page of ramblings | 17:44 |
| kanzure | bah | 17:45 |
| willPow3r | http://www.businessweek.com/ebiz/9909/ec0907.htm | 18:59 |
| willPow3r | "Gray predicts that in five years, 40 percent to 50 percent of all textbooks will be electronic." this was predicted in 1999 | 19:00 |
| kanzure | hahah | 19:03 |
| kanzure | well | 19:03 |
| kanzure | of all new textbooks ? | 19:03 |
| willPow3r | yea | 19:03 |
| willPow3r | since new editions come out every other year or so | 19:03 |
| kanzure | well, there's online "supplements" that sometimes includes PDF chaptesr | 19:04 |
| kanzure | *chapters | 19:04 |
| willPow3r | ebooks might not have been such a good idea in 1999, but today the idea would be a lot more acceptable | 19:04 |
| willPow3r | especially since laptops now outsell desktops | 19:04 |
| willPow3r | i have all my books in electronic format | 19:05 |
| willPow3r | downloaded illegally, of course | 19:05 |
| willPow3r | but still, i only carry around a 3 lb laptop and a wacom | 19:05 |
| willPow3r | instead of 20+ lbs of books and binders | 19:05 |
| willPow3r | i happen to have a "wizeup" version of my physics textbook | 19:07 |
| willPow3r | pretty neat, but i think its a few versions old | 19:07 |
| kanzure | PDFs suck | 19:11 |
| willPow3r | you can bookmark them | 19:11 |
| kanzure | even though I have 80 GB of them .. | 19:11 |
| willPow3r | is there an OSS alternative to pdf? | 19:12 |
| willPow3r | except for it being proprietary, i like it | 19:12 |
| kanzure | plain text | 19:12 |
| kanzure | ps, maybe | 19:12 |
| willPow3r | perhaps | 19:12 |
| kanzure | the age of the ascii diagram will come once again! | 19:13 |
| * kanzure suicides into pearl harbor | 19:13 | |
| ybit | pdf is an open standard, what's wrong with that? | 19:13 |
| willPow3r | lol | 19:13 |
| willPow3r | bbs | 19:14 |
| kanzure | pdf renders terribly | 19:14 |
| kanzure | ybit: ever try 50 pdfs open at once? | 19:14 |
| ybit | 50 files of any format would crash this comp :P | 19:14 |
| kanzure | plain text? | 19:14 |
| ybit | okay, maybe not ascii | 19:14 |
| willPow3r | i'd love to see somebody publish scientific papers in plain text | 19:15 |
| ybit | plain-text, whatever | 19:15 |
| ybit | ascii, utf-9, iso-9880 i believe | 19:15 |
| ybit | think that's about all the plain-text formats | 19:15 |
| ybit | commonly used* | 19:15 |
| ybit | utf-8* | 19:16 |
| kanzure | you fail | 19:16 |
| ybit | heh | 19:16 |
| ybit | wow, i sure did | 19:18 |
| ybit | close, but um, ouch | 19:19 |
| * kanzure reads up on graph grammars some more http://www.biocheminfo.org/klotho/grammar.html | 19:19 | |
| ybit | just for the record, was thinking of iso/iec8859 character encoding | 19:21 |
| kanzure | 'Formalizing refactorings with graph transformations ' hm | 19:23 |
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| fenn | pdf is easy enough to convert to plain text | 20:21 |
| fenn | i'd love to find something that converts to html and preserves pictures and layout | 20:22 |
| willPow3r | http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdftohtml/ | 20:22 |
| fenn | google's "show as html" kinda sucks | 20:22 |
| fenn | doesn't really work, unfortunately | 20:23 |
| willPow3r | acrobat professional doesn't do a bad job | 20:34 |
| willPow3r | saving a pdf as an html 4.01 w/ CSS | 20:34 |
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| kanzure | I find it funny that when I go to forward an event to Charlie (newgenome), | 21:37 |
| kanzure | my little assistant thinger pops up "Charlie Stross" | 21:37 |
| kanzure | heh' | 21:37 |
| kanzure | http://holtz.org/Library/Social%20Science/Futurology/Stages%20in%20Future%20Evolution%20by%20Baxter.htm | 21:40 |
| kanzure | this generally pisses me off: http://holtz.org/Library/Social%20Science/Futurology/The%20Politics%20of%20Transhumanism.htm | 21:48 |
| kanzure | so nevermind. | 21:48 |
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| kanzure | I still don't know who this atomjack/fusionanomaly character is .. | 21:54 |
| biopunk | There is always some humor in people predicting the future in detail. | 22:04 |
| kanzure | No, Hughes has always been a pain in the ass. | 22:04 |
| kanzure | He's overly criticial of the extropian crowd because he thinks they just want to blow the government up .. I don't think Hughes is a programmer, I doubt he understands. | 22:05 |
| biopunk | It's not my fight | 22:06 |
| kanzure | It's not a fight at all -- just annoying :-) | 22:07 |
| biopunk | they´re all a bunch of wankers | 22:09 |
| kanzure | who? | 22:11 |
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| biopunk | the transhuman crowd kurzweil, bostrom, the imminst crowd... what's the other swedish neuroscience guy... they're a bunch of mental masturbators | 22:14 |
| fenn | hmm fusionanomaly sounds familiar | 22:15 |
| willPow3r_ | philosophers == mental masturbators | 22:15 |
| biopunk | not karl popper surely | 22:16 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://fusionanomaly.net/ | 22:16 |
| kanzure | "you ar ewhat you cache" and such | 22:16 |
| biopunk | those guys are not philosophers really either.. they're just nerds | 22:16 |
| willPow3r_ | they want their predictions of the future to become reality so bad | 22:17 |
| kanzure | uhm? | 22:17 |
| willPow3r_ | that they are blinded by science and scientists that say otherwise | 22:17 |
| kanzure | let's not broadly generalize here, there's a good number of them that are actually building shit :-) | 22:17 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with that ? | 22:17 |
| * kanzure just lost interest in the 'graph grammars' crowd .. it's just another case of OOP | 22:18 | |
| fenn | don't discount something just because it's OOP | 22:18 |
| kanzure | "nodes are objects and vertices are highly convoluted relations between them" | 22:18 |
| kanzure | did you catch the discussion with Phreedom yesterday, fenn? | 22:18 |
| * biopunk fails to see any bigger difference between Kurzweil and Deepak Chopra | 22:18 | |
| fenn | sorta | 22:18 |
| kanzure | basically the idea is that the core system that you design isn't an object, you throw some equations together to model the damned thing and then others can go and say "ooh, here's a fancy hubcap" or something | 22:19 |
| kanzure | so the equations and such don't really jump out at me as being object-oriented really | 22:19 |
| kanzure | such as the equations describing a diesel engine | 22:19 |
| kanzure | I'm easily wrong here, I was just thinking about this a few moments ago too | 22:19 |
| kanzure | oh wait, because I brought it up | 22:19 |
| fenn | there's more than one way to skin a diesel engine | 22:19 |
| kanzure | mm | 22:19 |
| kanzure | it's not an object though, it's like a trace of different people's contributions in 'diesel engine design' from history and such .. "oh, you're using a Feynman hyperdrive and a two-legged Drexler coater! awesome!" not just "here's a hunk of points" | 22:20 |
| kanzure | anyway, I need to go back and think | 22:20 |
| fenn | better to refer to things by the principles in how they work, rather than some dead guy's name | 22:21 |
| kanzure | that's fine too | 22:21 |
| willPow3r_ | i am very skeptical about people who refer to themselves as "singularitarians" | 22:22 |
| kanzure | willPow3r_: that just means they love Eliezer | 22:22 |
| fenn | willPow3r_: i dont think anyone seriously refers to themselves as singularitarian | 22:22 |
| willPow3r_ | believing too firmly in one possible future is rediculous | 22:22 |
| willPow3r_ | some do | 22:22 |
| kanzure | fenn: check the SL4 mailing list | 22:22 |
| kanzure | you'd be surprised | 22:22 |
| kanzure | also, the people I was living with up in California | 22:23 |
| willPow3r_ | lots of people even consider it a [i]religion[/i] | 22:23 |
| fenn | it seems to me that the term is more often used by skeptical journalists trying to make some kind of sensation | 22:23 |
| kanzure | 'Modeling the Variability with UML for TRIZ Based CAI System' heh .. buzz word alert.. UMl, TRIZ, CAI, uh oh | 22:23 |
| fenn | what's CAI? | 22:24 |
| fenn | hmm.. a buzzword i see :) | 22:25 |
| kanzure | 'computer aided integration' | 22:25 |
| kanzure | or something | 22:25 |
| fenn | innovation | 22:25 |
| kanzure | oh | 22:26 |
| fenn | another cult :) | 22:26 |
| kanzure | 'In object-oriented programming, programmers can think of a program as a collection of interacting objects, while in functional programming a program can be thought of as a sequence of stateless function evaluations. When programming computers or systems with many processors, process-oriented programming allows programmers to think about applications as sets of concurrent processes acting upon logically shared data structures.' | 22:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/conf/prolamat/index.html prolomat = programming languages for manufacturing | 22:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/conf/prolamat/index.html | 22:30 |
| fenn | concurrent process acting on logically shared data structure = race condition clusterfuck | 22:30 |
| kanzure | heh | 22:31 |
| kanzure | it feels intuitively wrong to call a "chair" an object .. | 22:31 |
| fenn | if a chair isn't an object, then what is? | 22:31 |
| kanzure | you get into monadology where all things are by necessity related to all other objects | 22:31 |
| fenn | but they are! | 22:32 |
| kanzure | right, so how are you going to write a program to represent that | 22:32 |
| kanzure | oh wait, you'd need the universe | 22:33 |
| fenn | this map/territory problem will show up no matter what philosophy you use to represent the universe | 22:33 |
| kanzure | I would say nothing is an 'object' -- the monitor to my left (or my right) is just the result of the process of the manufacturing going on somewhere (that, sadly, I don't know about) and it's just my lack of knowledge about the world's context that precludes me from knowing more of it .. not that it's this "thing". | 22:33 |
| fenn | the monitor performs a function by nature of its design, which is the same as every other monitor produced in that factory | 22:34 |
| kanzure | you're not really trying to represent the universe .. you're just writing some code to translate some information into other usable information or something | 22:34 |
| fenn | you dont care about the exact isotope ratio of the carbon atoms in the liquid crystal, as long as it works | 22:35 |
| kanzure | if you've done too much abstraction, then you'll miss something and get boned | 22:36 |
| fenn | that's the limits of computation | 22:36 |
| kanzure | "the monitor" is just our grammatical conception of it - a shared word between the two of us - and both of us know that there's certain ways that this word is 'grounded' in reality and that's why we use it (I know you'll be thinking of something roughly like the "monitor" before me). It's not "a monitor" .. it's the shared social reference that I presume you have as well due to the greater context of society that I'm unaware of (seriously, where th | 22:36 |
| kanzure | hm | 22:38 |
| fenn | you're thinking of some assemblage of materials whereas i'm thinking of the function of showing a colored dot array | 22:38 |
| kanzure | that's not computation, that's just data | 22:38 |
| kanzure | (not your last message) | 22:38 |
| fenn | not having enough data to start with is a different problem altogether | 22:39 |
| fenn | i think we call that 'science' or maybe just 'sensing' | 22:39 |
| kanzure | the problem that I see is that you'll just add more and more objects into the system at varying degrees of "data collection" | 22:39 |
| kanzure | it'd be the bioinformatics problem all over again | 22:40 |
| kanzure | these giant databases just sitting there | 22:40 |
| kanzure | oh, chemspider might be a good example | 22:40 |
| fenn | if i had to pick and choose which data to keep, i'd keep the more abstract functional kind, rather than the tedious more or less arbitrary detail | 22:41 |
| kanzure | and pubchem. millions and millions of cheminformatics | 22:41 |
| kanzure | surely you're not going to code in every possible ways to use a chair | 22:41 |
| kanzure | stepping latter, surface to put things, surface on which to put a person, surface on which to put a general object, .. | 22:41 |
| kanzure | you've basically got cyc all over again :p | 22:41 |
| fenn | "chair" is surface on which to put a person | 22:42 |
| kanzure | *ladder | 22:42 |
| fenn | individual structures that happen to be chairs may or may not hold that 10 ton pickup truck you're putting on top | 22:42 |
| fenn | (i guess pickup trucks dont actually get to 10 tons oh well) | 22:43 |
| fenn | i have some wicker chairs that tend to break if you step on the middle of them | 22:44 |
| kanzure | now, here's the alternative -- as designer, you're sitting in front of your graphs that represent the overall system and the various ways that matter/information/energy is flowing through it or whatever, and "apt-get install chair" would install the programs to do the calculations on the dataformats that you have so that you can get "20 minutes of 500 kg wait time" (it breaks in 20 minutes) (okay, terrible example) | 22:44 |
| kanzure | these packages in the repo have direct correlates to being built and directly contain the programs required to hash out the math and such.. | 22:44 |
| kanzure | and of course the typical instructions we've mentioned time and time again | 22:44 |
| fenn | there isnt much math involved in just determining if something's a chair | 22:44 |
| kanzure | ("step 1 ... move arm left") | 22:44 |
| kanzure | not in determining if it's a chair, but | 22:45 |
| kanzure | let's change chair to a petroleum engineering scenario with a pipeline | 22:45 |
| kanzure | where you want to pipe oil, so you use a pipe, right? and you do the calculations and you figure out your design constraints and so on | 22:45 |
| fenn | ok, what if you decide to pump water through your pipe, is it still a petroleum pipeline? | 22:45 |
| kanzure | within these constrains your procurement network :-) discussed earlier today :-) could conceivably fill in those gaps maybe, but the "objects" are -- at most -- math. | 22:46 |
| kanzure | right, I'm not describing it as a petroleum pipe only .. it's a "way to transfer materials" no ? a "solution to the problem" and the problem is supposedly formerly expressed or something ... right ? | 22:46 |
| kanzure | jfldajflakdja | 22:46 |
| kanzure | I'm not about to write turtles all the way down .. | 22:46 |
| fenn | turtles are useful though | 22:46 |
| fenn | with enough turtles you can put water in a petroleum pipeline and see if it will work | 22:47 |
| fenn | or determine the compression strength of a chair | 22:47 |
| kanzure | gah, like hell I'm going to be damned to turtle herding for my life | 22:48 |
| fenn | i think the question isn't "do we want to use turtles" but rather "how many layers of turtles can we reasonably expect to be able to use at once" | 22:48 |
| kanzure | how do you keep the "layers pure" ? | 22:48 |
| fenn | pure? | 22:48 |
| kanzure | well, you can't have a particle physics definition of one thing and then couple it to an object you only have one line describing .. | 22:49 |
| fenn | you just ignore effects that aren't in your current layer of abstraction | 22:49 |
| fenn | if it fucks up, that's life. try again | 22:49 |
| kanzure | what is that defined by | 22:49 |
| kanzure | that 'current layer of abstraction' | 22:49 |
| fenn | 'chair' is a high level layer of abstraction | 22:49 |
| fenn | bending moments in beams of arbitrary cross section is a slightly lower layer | 22:49 |
| kanzure | I know it's higher, I don't know what context you're using to demand that all objects in your design window are of the same abstraction level | 22:50 |
| fenn | each function has its own context | 22:50 |
| fenn | 'sit' function looks around for chairs | 22:50 |
| kanzure | suppose you zoom in on the interace between a gas pump and a hose | 22:50 |
| fenn | if no chairs are found, you can start trying to construct them out of materials at hand | 22:51 |
| fenn | (such as the ground) | 22:51 |
| fenn | sometimes ground isnt suitable surface to put people on | 22:51 |
| kanzure | "sit function looks around for the chairs" hm? so when you try to demand abstraction level sameness across all of the parts of the system you're designing, you have a sit function look for something? what? | 22:51 |
| fenn | look for objects defined as a chair (or inheriting chair class) | 22:52 |
| fenn | it's not same abstraction level across all parts of the system, it's only within a particular interaction | 22:53 |
| kanzure | this doesn't tell me how to make sure you're operating at the same layer of abstraction across all components in the system ... do you mean that when you throw something new into the pot/the-equation (colloquilism), that it starts to throw errors or something when it can't find a chair or | 22:54 |
| kanzure | whatever specifics it needs to operate seamlessly? that would make sense, I guess, but just expecting it to magically click together - as if somebody has made all possible levels of abstraction of that random object, eh .. | 22:54 |
| kanzure | hm | 22:54 |
| kanzure | now I thought it was those interactions/transformations that mattered in the first place | 22:54 |
| kanzure | at the interfaces. | 22:56 |
| fenn | 'somebody has made all possible level of abstraction of that object' is probably not true, but we can come up with many of them automatically through class inheritance, and with enough detail in the description | 22:56 |
| fenn | this chair is made of 35mm 304 stainless tubing, we can deduce its density, modulus, tensile strength etc | 22:57 |
| kanzure | does this preserve the ability to "apt-get" the design into a physical structure sitting behind me in my fablab/fabuntulab? those descriptions still have to be instructions rather than natural language, so I'm just checking | 22:57 |
| kanzure | trying to see how this makes sense .. or if it doesn't. | 22:57 |
| fenn | no, you won't be able to make any arbitrary structure out of materials on hand | 22:58 |
| kanzure | then what does it let me do, of all things? | 22:59 |
| fenn | especially if there isn't a detailed enough description of it | 22:59 |
| fenn | if you have a poorly documented object, but actually physically possess an instance of it, the poor representation is still useful even if you can't duplicate it | 22:59 |
| fenn | good lord, english sucks sometimes | 22:59 |
| kanzure | yep | 22:59 |
| fenn | you can teach a man to fish.. | 23:00 |
| kanzure | fish for turtles? | 23:00 |
| fenn | but i wont spurn a fish just because i dont have a fishing rod | 23:00 |
| fenn | there's this idea that anyone can make anything, because anything that can be made has been made | 23:01 |
| kanzure | right | 23:01 |
| fenn | so, the reason object oriented descriptions of 'stuff' is good, is that you dont have to recalculate all the possible functions from ground up every time you want to use it | 23:02 |
| kanzure | gentoo | 23:03 |
| fenn | fuck gentoo | 23:03 |
| fenn | i know what i want, and i want it now | 23:03 |
| fenn | wah | 23:03 |
| fenn | so, yeah. in a world of infinite computing power, we wouldn't exist | 23:04 |
| fenn | you know about the tipler omega point>? | 23:04 |
| kanzure | yes | 23:05 |
| kanzure | okay, so let's say that those functions have to be calculated at least once | 23:06 |
| kanzure | I agree that it's worth encapsulating, perhaps within the shell of a turtle | 23:06 |
| kanzure | but it still has to exist, no? | 23:07 |
| fenn | what has to exist? | 23:07 |
| kanzure | the possible functions that you calculate and compile into your design, the 'constraints' and 'design/matter compiler' and so on | 23:07 |
| fenn | the model could be wrong, of course | 23:08 |
| fenn | the design might not actually work | 23:08 |
| fenn | in that case, you must examine the process used to determine functionality (lower level functions) | 23:08 |
| fenn | at some point they will have to be transcended, make a new scientific paradigm, but this doesn't happen often | 23:09 |
| kanzure | let's say I have fabuntu running, assembled my chemical pipe line thingy and it has detected a leak in its unit testing procedures (hurray!), | 23:09 |
| kanzure | it then generates a quick bug report, stops operations immediately and then generates you a report | 23:09 |
| kanzure | telling you that the implementation stuff is wrong | 23:09 |
| kanzure | what then? | 23:09 |
| kanzure | what do you mean by 'examine the process used to determine' -- do you mean, refactor the objects you have in your window ? | 23:10 |
| fenn | what does the bug report say? | 23:10 |
| kanzure | gas leak? | 23:10 |
| fenn | how does it know there's a gas leak? | 23:10 |
| kanzure | difference between gas on one end and the other of the pipe? | 23:10 |
| kanzure | it's a modular unit test debugging procedure | 23:10 |
| fenn | so, presumably one of the components had some geometry code that determined flow through the pipe, right? | 23:11 |
| fenn | er, s/one/all/ | 23:11 |
| kanzure | I guess ... what if it's just a hole in the pipe, an error in the manufacturing? | 23:11 |
| kanzure | well, I guess that's the geometry | 23:11 |
| fenn | error in manufacturing, very bad! six sigma! | 23:12 |
| kanzure | it's conceivably some other problem though, like the chemistry reacting with the inside tank walls | 23:12 |
| fenn | so, if there's no code to calculate chemical corrosion, someone would have to write some | 23:13 |
| fenn | and splice that into the unit testing procedures | 23:13 |
| fenn | this gets horrendously complicated really fast | 23:13 |
| kanzure | yeah .. | 23:13 |
| fenn | this is why we have testing and proof of concept studies | 23:14 |
| fenn | because the difference between theory and practice is greater in practice | 23:14 |
| fenn | i'm going to venture a wild opinion and say that anything as stupid as a gas leak simply won't happen under normal circumstances | 23:16 |
| kanzure | if I come in and play devil's advocate and bust up your tank or pipe, your system should very well detect that | 23:16 |
| fenn | why should it? | 23:17 |
| kanzure | unless you opted to exclude the sensor system | 23:17 |
| kanzure | well, gas leaks are kinda deadly | 23:17 |
| kanzure | also, the idea should be to have it operating :) | 23:17 |
| fenn | what proportion of overall cost should be devoted to keeping the system from blowing up due to arsonists? | 23:17 |
| fenn | eventually you will reach some gnarly security state with nukular lasers | 23:17 |
| kanzure | and an ai overlord | 23:18 |
| fenn | naturally | 23:18 |
| kanzure | I see your point. | 23:18 |
| kanzure | I thought he's on first | 23:18 |
| kanzure | it occurs to me that it would be fun to be an industrial spy and stake out the containers on the backs of returning semi's. | 23:19 |
| kanzure | to trace the supply chain. | 23:19 |
| fenn | kurzweil (of wankal reputation) thinks that intelligence is the ability to achieve goals with limited resources | 23:20 |
| kanzure | too bad nobody can prove the existence of goals from a biophysical perspective | 23:20 |
| fenn | so you can't be 100% certain that it will work, you have to figure out what problems are worth spending time on | 23:20 |
| kanzure | agreed | 23:20 |
| fenn | nobody can prove anything | 23:21 |
| fenn | goals are what i say they are | 23:21 |
| fenn | unless i'm lying of course | 23:21 |
| kanzure | how's that working out for you | 23:21 |
| fenn | not very well really, nobody seems to share my goals really | 23:21 |
| fenn | thanks for wanting to take over the galaxy, i appreciate it | 23:23 |
| kanzure | heh | 23:23 |
| kanzure | is that what I want? | 23:24 |
| fenn | close enough | 23:24 |
| kanzure | ah | 23:24 |
| kanzure | galaxy domination isn't bad though, not many have done that | 23:24 |
| kanzure | anyway, | 23:24 |
| kanzure | how would you get the object database to a usable status? | 23:24 |
| fenn | by using it and fixing the parts that dont work in practice | 23:25 |
| kanzure | kinda useless if you can only apt-get a few pieces of paper from your inventory | 23:25 |
| kanzure | oh right | 23:25 |
| kanzure | origami stuff | 23:25 |
| kanzure | oh, we could use graphs for origami instead of silly blender | 23:25 |
| kanzure | oh right, I looked into that | 23:25 |
| kanzure | MIT closed source stuff | 23:25 |
| fenn | origami sucks | 23:25 |
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| kanzure | crap | 23:25 |
| kanzure | papakura too though | 23:25 |
| fenn | its worse than reprap extruded plastic. the only advantage is that people already have laser printers | 23:25 |
| kanzure | folds were edges or something | 23:26 |
| fenn | what does origami *do* | 23:26 |
| kanzure | waste our time? | 23:26 |
| fenn | you can make an envelope, or a pinwheel, but they are so limited in shape and material performance that it really is a waste of time | 23:28 |
| kanzure | the 'automated design lab' here had a little project that generated 10k permutations of a factory design for some soda coke bottle machine thingy | 23:28 |
| fenn | this is the same reason reprap is a waste of time, incidentally | 23:28 |
| fenn | really, permutations? or variations? | 23:28 |
| kanzure | what do you consider the difference to be ? | 23:29 |
| fenn | permutation would be topologically different, i guess | 23:29 |
| kanzure | permutations as in "a,b,c," and "a,b,d" and variations would be different - how? | 23:29 |
| fenn | whereas a variation can change smoothly from one to the next | 23:29 |
| fenn | btw were they "good" designs? actually funcional? | 23:29 |
| kanzure | give me a few moments to check | 23:30 |
| kanzure | it's worth reading or at least glancing at | 23:30 |
| fenn | i looked at adl stuff a bit, but it kinda just seemed like boxes with words in them connected in a row | 23:30 |
| kanzure | yeah, the software stuff just boggles me - doesn't look like it _does_ anything | 23:31 |
| fenn | at least the constructal site had a pretty picture of some heat exchanger | 23:31 |
| kanzure | http://www.me.utexas.edu/~adl/Dissertation_Research.htm | 23:32 |
| kanzure | grr | 23:33 |
| kanzure | it was already on the server | 23:33 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/manufacturing/A%20computational%20approach%20to%20innovative%20conceptual%20design%20-%20Tolga%20Kurtoglu.pdf | 23:33 |
| kanzure | page 105 was where I was at | 23:33 |
| fenn | bleh.. do i really have to read that? | 23:34 |
| kanzure | no, just scroll around and act like you care | 23:35 |
| kanzure | I think they're just using simple components | 23:36 |
| kanzure | since they don't plan to convert this into a real system | 23:36 |
| kanzure | page 88 (101 in the pdf thingy) has their graphsynth software with a screenshot | 23:37 |
| kanzure | very confusing diagram | 23:37 |
| fenn | well what the hell are they doing if it's not for real | 23:37 |
| kanzure | "design" | 23:37 |
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| * fenn is not impressed | 23:39 | |
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| kanzure | it's kind of like my schedule generator, except a design generator or something, maybe | 23:41 |
| kanzure | but I guess if they're not actually doing a thing | 23:41 |
| kanzure | hm. | 23:41 |
| fenn | i liked lipson's GA simulations -> rapid prototyped robots because they actually came up with automatically designed robots that worked | 23:41 |
| fenn | the sand fish thing in the upper left: http://ccsl.mae.cornell.edu/ | 23:42 |
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| kanzure | hm | 23:44 |
| kanzure | notbad | 23:44 |
| fenn | surely there is a graph grammar going on somewhere in the simulation, but they dont make a huge deal about it | 23:44 |
| kanzure | hod lipson | 23:44 |
| kanzure | I've seen hod somewhere before | 23:44 |
| kanzure | is he prolific or something? | 23:44 |
| fenn | yes | 23:44 |
| kanzure | oh, he's the block-arm-assembly-guy | 23:47 |
| kanzure | http://www.molecubes.org/ | 23:48 |
| fenn | reminds me of superbot | 23:48 |
| kanzure | 'SuperBot - User Friendly Web Downloader Software | 23:49 |
| kanzure | SuperBot is the world's smartest, fastest, easiest website downloader. Download a free trial copy now!' | 23:49 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qz2lmUlZxs or that | 23:49 |
| fenn | no, second result dummy | 23:49 |
| kanzure | possibly http://www.alicebot.org/superbot.html | 23:49 |
| kanzure | http://www.isi.edu/robots/superbot.htm ? | 23:49 |
| fenn | http://www.isi.edu/robots/superbot.htm | 23:49 |
| fenn | its the same cube-flexes-and-hooks-to-other-cubes | 23:50 |
| fenn | its cool that they distribute the cad files and BOM | 23:52 |
| kanzure | BOM? | 23:53 |
| fenn | bill of materials, aka stuff you buy | 23:53 |
| kanzure | oh, right | 23:53 |
| fenn | i dont really get the fascination with rapid prototyped stuff.. CNC is so much better faster and cheaper | 23:54 |
| kanzure | people are clueless, perhaps? | 23:55 |
| kanzure | I mean that they genuinely don't know. Amplifying potentials of the internet .. | 23:57 |
| fenn | i think its the amplifying potentials of the internet that made rapid protoypers the next big fad | 23:58 |
| kanzure | right | 23:58 |
| kanzure | what's the chances that the first freshman I'd talk to on campus would be "well versed" in reprap and such | 23:58 |
| kanzure | (well, lots of bias on my end of course - maybe I just target these people) | 23:59 |
| fenn | heh, definitely | 23:59 |
| fenn | but i'm surprised to see something from a cornell robotics professor using squirted plastic goo where clearly anything else would be better | 23:59 |
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