| --- Day changed Fri Sep 12 2008 | ||
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/camera/aws/view.html <-- I feel old. | 01:15 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | just got those photos from some very, very old friends | 01:16 |
| bkero | Er | 01:17 |
| bkero | kanzure: Have you ever used http://www.biosql.org/wiki/Main_Page ? | 01:27 |
| bkero | Apparently some people set it up and populate it with the entire NCBI taxonomy set. | 01:27 |
| kanzure | Yummy. | 01:28 |
| kanzure | NCBI only releases their dataset to you if you fill out a few forms. | 01:28 |
| kanzure | I guess I have somewhat legitimate reasons now, but it's still annoying. | 01:28 |
| bkero | How about the entire GenBank or EMBL or Swissprot public | 01:29 |
| kanzure | Swissprot? | 01:29 |
| kanzure | EMBL? | 01:29 |
| kanzure | But yes, I'd like to torrent GenBank. | 01:29 |
| bkero | google is your friend :) | 01:29 |
| bkero | http://www.embl.de/ | 01:29 |
| kanzure | http://expasy.org/sprot/ | 01:29 |
| kanzure | you know what, fuck this | 01:30 |
| kanzure | I can spider genbank. | 01:30 |
| bkero | lol | 01:30 |
| bkero | How big do you think genbank is | 01:30 |
| bkero | ? | 01:30 |
| kanzure | Meh. | 01:30 |
| kanzure | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Ftp/ | 01:30 |
| kanzure | Woah, this isn't bad. | 01:31 |
| kanzure | ftp://bio-mirror.net/biomirror/genbank/ | 01:31 |
| kanzure | ftp://bio-mirror.jp.apan.net/pub/biomirror/genbank/ (Japan) | 01:32 |
| kanzure | ftp://bio-mirror.kr.apan.net/pub/biomirror/genbank/ (Korea) | 01:32 |
| kanzure | ftp://bio-mirror.sg.apan.net/biomirrors/genbank/ (Singapore) | 01:32 |
| bkero | That's maybe 1TB? | 01:32 |
| kanzure | How much of it is unique? | 01:33 |
| kanzure | I can't quite tell the difference between the datasets there except the filename, which isn't helpful. | 01:33 |
| bkero | Yea | 01:33 |
| kanzure | ftp://ftp.ncbi.nih.gov/genbank/genomes/H_sapiens/ | 01:33 |
| kanzure | For instance, | 01:33 |
| bkero | ftp://bio-mirror.net/biomirror/genbank/README.genbank | 01:33 |
| kanzure | 94 MB, and then a 1 GB file | 01:33 |
| kanzure | Yes, I read the readme. | 01:33 |
| kanzure | foo | 01:33 |
| bkero | JESUS | 01:33 |
| bkero | The files in this directory comprise GenBank Release 167.0, in the | 01:33 |
| bkero | GenBank flatfile format. | 01:33 |
| kanzure | hs_phs0.fna.gz Survey sequence (approx 0.5 - 1 x coverage) | 01:34 |
| kanzure | hs_phs1.fna.gz Unordered contigs (each >2kb) | 01:34 |
| kanzure | hs_phs2.fna.gz Ordered contigs (each >2kb) | 01:34 |
| kanzure | hs_phs3.fna.gz Finished sequence | 01:34 |
| kanzure | Heh. | 01:34 |
| bkero | Looks like GenBank is pulling in EMBL data | 01:34 |
| kanzure | All of them are the whole release? Bah .. | 01:34 |
| bkero | At least nucleotide bases can be 2-bit bit. :) | 01:35 |
| kanzure | 20 minutes to get a gigabyte. Meh. I guess it's not life-or-death. | 01:35 |
| kanzure | What type of down/up do you get at Intel? | 01:35 |
| bkero | Intels connection is shit | 01:36 |
| bkero | Although I have an I2 connection at oregonstate. | 01:36 |
| bkero | Bouncing between 600 and 1.2MB | 01:36 |
| kanzure | Bah. | 01:37 |
| kanzure | But at least you have clusters. | 01:37 |
| bkero | Heh | 01:37 |
| kanzure | don't tell me that's not quite true either .. | 01:37 |
| bkero | actually | 01:38 |
| * kanzure groans | 01:38 | |
| bkero | bio-mirror.net = magpie.bio.indiana.edu | 01:38 |
| kanzure | right | 01:38 |
| bkero | My friend runs the supercomputer on campus there. | 01:38 |
| kanzure | How super is it? | 01:38 |
| bkero | Mainframe super | 01:38 |
| bkero | It's on the top 500 list | 01:38 |
| bkero | http://www.top500.org/site/systems/876 | 01:39 |
| kanzure | Heh, they give the top500 in XML format on the site | 01:41 |
| bkero | I can probably get him to send it to you. :P | 01:41 |
| kanzure | the whole cluster? | 01:41 |
| bkero | No, the data from the ftp | 01:41 |
| kanzure | that's not quite as exciting | 01:41 |
| bkero | lol | 01:41 |
| bkero | You want a cluster? | 01:41 |
| kanzure | unless he can get it to me in less than the 13 minutes remaining | 01:41 |
| kanzure | Yes, especially an exponentially growing cluster if you would | 01:41 |
| kanzure | maybe a supercluster | 01:41 |
| bkero | I can get quad cores with 4gb of ram for less than $500 a node | 01:42 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/clusters.html | 01:43 |
| kanzure | now that /me thinks about it I should have kept the superclusters | 01:43 |
| bkero | Strike that, $400 per node | 01:43 |
| kanzure | node != just the microprocessor ? | 01:44 |
| bkero | No | 01:44 |
| kanzure | Then why mention the ram? | 01:44 |
| bkero | Node = one commodity "computer" | 01:44 |
| kanzure | != means "not equal" | 01:44 |
| kanzure | anyway | 01:44 |
| kanzure | Awesome. | 01:44 |
| kanzure | I wish you would have mentioned that a few months ago. | 01:44 |
| bkero | Aww, did you ahve an opportunity? | 01:44 |
| kanzure | No, I wasted a large chunk of cash on a new box. | 01:45 |
| bkero | Yea. These boxes have onboard video, and no hard drives... | 01:45 |
| kanzure | just a little over double .. | 01:45 |
| kanzure | oh | 01:45 |
| kanzure | Well then. Nevermind. | 01:45 |
| bkero | Wow, damn, I hope you got something good. | 01:45 |
| bkero | $550 would get you good video and a 500gb | 01:46 |
| kanzure | 2 TB, four video cards, eight monitors, quadcore, 4 GB ram, .. | 01:46 |
| bkero | what | 01:46 |
| kanzure | ? | 01:46 |
| bkero | Is that what you got? | 01:46 |
| kanzure | yes | 01:46 |
| bkero | Absurd | 01:47 |
| kanzure | Overpriced? | 01:47 |
| bkero | 8 monitors? | 01:47 |
| kanzure | Heh. | 01:47 |
| kanzure | CRTs. | 01:47 |
| bkero | oh | 01:47 |
| kanzure | So it was cheap. | 01:47 |
| bkero | God | 01:47 |
| bkero | SO MUCH POWER DRAW | 01:47 |
| bkero | and SO MUCH EYE CANCER | 01:47 |
| kanzure | CANCER | 01:47 |
| * kanzure has to boot up with a radiation suit | 01:47 | |
| bkero | Buy one of these | 01:48 |
| bkero | and tell me how much it draws | 01:48 |
| bkero | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882715001 | 01:48 |
| bkero | dinner time, spicy curry! | 01:48 |
| kanzure | what do I do with an fna file? | 02:02 |
| kanzure | 'FASTA file format, nucleic acid sequences' | 02:02 |
| kanzure | looks like I might be able to split it up if I wanted to but why wasn't it in the first place? | 02:03 |
| kanzure | each entry in the fna file looks like http://earth.lab.nig.ac.jp/~dclust/cgi-bin/barley_pub/blast_viewer/showflatdata.cgi?CLNID=5005&CLNLIBID=54&DBID=1 | 02:04 |
| kanzure | specially the portions separted by the hr elements on the page | 02:04 |
| -!- Nade is now known as Nade|sleep | 02:08 | |
| kanzure | http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=9591 | 09:50 |
| kanzure | Joseph Jackson is a Harvard guy? | 09:50 |
| kanzure | who is this fellow .. | 09:50 |
| kanzure | http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Project_Mindfile | 09:53 |
| kanzure | what the fuck is a 'beme' | 09:54 |
| kanzure | will anybody get upset if I start claiming mind uploading (in the "soul" sense of "mind") to be impossible? | 10:02 |
| marainein | not me | 10:09 |
| kanzure | you guys can't even keep yourselves the same from one moment to the next; how do you expect to do so with mind uploading? | 10:10 |
| kanzure | as if there's some secret sauce to identity? | 10:10 |
| kanzure | "mind uploading" is misnamed | 10:10 |
| kanzure | let's call it "brain rearchitecting" ? | 10:10 |
| marainein | i actually wanted to ask you, back when you were talking about consciousness, if you were offered the chance to have your brain frozen and and destroyed in the process of making a hi fidelity digital copy, would you take it? | 10:10 |
| kanzure | if I'm at the end of my life & my other projects have failed, yeah sure | 10:11 |
| * kanzure would have to consider the various things | 10:11 | |
| marainein | and if you're not? | 10:11 |
| kanzure | sorry? | 10:12 |
| kanzure | what? | 10:12 |
| marainein | would you take the offer now or in the near future? while you're still healthy and able to continue as a biological organism? | 10:13 |
| kanzure | No. | 10:13 |
| * kanzure has his own plans for such things | 10:13 | |
| marainein | what did you have in mind? | 10:13 |
| kanzure | btw, for the record, I'm not interested in one-to-one "copies" of the mind - I just want to try out brain building and seeing what I can get | 10:14 |
| kanzure | not even twins are all that similar, you see :) | 10:14 |
| kanzure | in feasible terms this goes back to the notes on artificial wombs, dna synthesizers and other various projects to try to "enclose the supply chain" | 10:14 |
| kanzure | "supply chain" of myself, if that makes any sense | 10:15 |
| marainein | what's your objection to the biological brain destroyed and turned into a digital copy btw? | 10:16 |
| * kanzure hasn't investigated the mechanism, source code or anything else | 10:16 | |
| kanzure | that's my objection. | 10:16 |
| kanzure | also, | 10:16 |
| kanzure | it's a stubborness issue | 10:16 |
| kanzure | I'd much rather do it on my own | 10:16 |
| marainein | *nods* | 10:17 |
| fenn | obvious objection is that you die, silly wabbit | 11:44 |
| fenn | i'll be highly offended if anyone goes around claiming some particular technical challenge is impossible | 11:44 |
| fenn | "Bemes are fundamental, transmissible, mutate-able units of beingness" whatever that means | 11:45 |
| * fenn chucks it in the "stupid word" group along with "spime" | 11:50 | |
| kanzure | spime? | 11:52 |
| fenn | recyclable digital device thingy | 11:53 |
| kanzure | huh | 11:53 |
| kanzure | the differences between a bio lab and an engineering lab are interesting | 12:00 |
| kanzure | the engineering lab has more comfortable chairs | 12:00 |
| kanzure | and more windows boxen | 12:00 |
| fenn | do biologists still exclusively use macintosh? | 12:03 |
| kanzure | actually no :) | 12:03 |
| kanzure | oddly enough it was the computery guys in the bio lab that were using mac | 12:04 |
| fenn | well that sorta figures | 12:04 |
| fenn | it takes a little bit of initiative to pick something besides the default | 12:04 |
| kanzure | majority of laptops as seen from the back of the 400+ occupancy lecture halls, are mostly mac | 12:32 |
| fenn | in what class? | 12:33 |
| kanzure | chemistry 101 "inches to moles" | 12:33 |
| kanzure | 301, really, but whatever | 12:33 |
| fenn | huh. | 12:33 |
| kanzure | some guy in the audience had a giant slackware sticker on the back of his screen, so I was happy to see at least 1/400 | 12:33 |
| kanzure | the actual count is 280~ because we do realtime quizzes with an active count of the number of people who have answered via iclicker.com | 12:34 |
| kanzure | me needs to run off to lern me sum wordz | 12:34 |
| kanzure | so I think I have a simple idea for a wearable | 16:13 |
| kanzure | why not just use one of the swivol-thingys found on desks mounted to a backpack, then mount a small table top on it, then mount a keyboard ? Then you can use a draw string with your elbow or something to have it deploy and lock in front of you while you walk. | 16:13 |
| kanzure | http://lockler.com/ | 16:14 |
| kanzure | hrm, wrong site | 16:14 |
| kanzure | *swivel | 16:14 |
| kanzure | ah, 'locking swivol' | 16:14 |
| kanzure | http://www.hangler.com/ | 16:15 |
| kanzure | http://www.thomasnet.com/products/swivels-82070202-1.html | 16:16 |
| kanzure | http://www.dannychoo.com/detail/mac/eng/image/1744/Keyboard+Trousers.html | 16:25 |
| fenn | i dont know what you mean, i'm picturing something like this: http://www.boingboing.net/2003/07/09/free-robot-art-in-ny.html | 16:31 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/diagrams/kb.png | 16:31 |
| kanzure | fenn: well, yeah, that would of course be great | 16:31 |
| kanzure | looks a little complicated for a quick hack though | 16:31 |
| fenn | the simple reason is that you would bump into stuff | 16:32 |
| kanzure | ? | 16:32 |
| fenn | the other reason is you have this big heavy thing with a large moment of inertia hanging off your shoulder all day | 16:32 |
| kanzure | reason for what | 16:32 |
| fenn | the reason why it won't work, stupid :) | 16:32 |
| fenn | "why not blah blah blah blah... ?" | 16:33 |
| kanzure | I don't care about bumping into stuff really, I do that anyway (not really, but I could get used to it - minor concern) | 16:33 |
| kanzure | and I can't imagine it weighing more than my 20 or 30 pound backpacks anyway | 16:33 |
| kanzure | how much could a metal swivol weigh ? surely only 5 or 10 pounds at most | 16:34 |
| fenn | and your arm would get tired i think | 16:34 |
| fenn | holding it out vertical like that | 16:34 |
| kanzure | couldn't it rest on it? | 16:35 |
| kanzure | http://www.halfkeyboard.com/products/whkbinfo.html <-- half keyboard .. kind of like my "mount it under the forearm" idea | 16:35 |
| fenn | better to have it at pocket level, rotated forward 90 degrees | 16:35 |
| kanzure | http://www.embedds.com/one-hand-wearable-keyboard-with-usb-interface/ | 16:35 |
| kanzure | pocket level, forward 90 degrees | 16:35 |
| kanzure | hrm | 16:35 |
| fenn | those are for people who have to look at their fingers while typing | 16:35 |
| kanzure | oh, the half kb at pocket level you mean | 16:36 |
| fenn | right, belted onto your thigh or waist | 16:36 |
| fenn | why isn't this obvious? what are people thinking! | 16:37 |
| kanzure | hm? | 16:37 |
| fenn | arm-mounted keyboards, really, come on | 16:37 |
| fenn | they saw it on that movie 'abyss' and were like .. "dude i need to get me a deep sea diving suit, but i'll settle for a wrist keyboard" | 16:37 |
| fenn | for $300!! | 16:38 |
| kanzure | it's kind of hard to test a kb at waist level because of gravity | 16:39 |
| kanzure | hrm | 16:39 |
| kanzure | mounting isn't quite obvious to me either | 16:39 |
| kanzure | har har har | 16:39 |
| fenn | ok take a keyboard, saw it in half | 16:39 |
| kanzure | why | 16:39 |
| fenn | now strap one half to your left thigh, one half to your right thigh | 16:40 |
| kanzure | oh | 16:40 |
| kanzure | at the sides. | 16:40 |
| fenn | yes, so you dont look like you're masturbating | 16:40 |
| fenn | but more practically because that's the way your arms hang at rest | 16:40 |
| kanzure | the small number pads that are "sawed off" and used by people that ring up how many kids you owe them are of the right size | 16:41 |
| kanzure | oh, you know, if you just drill a few holes through the plastic | 16:42 |
| kanzure | on a full kb | 16:42 |
| kanzure | and run some chains through it | 16:42 |
| fenn | aroo? | 16:42 |
| kanzure | the holes going across the bottom where your palms would rest if the plastic was extended that far | 16:42 |
| kanzure | and then hook the chains into your belt buckles or something | 16:42 |
| fenn | so you just have a kb hanging from your belt? | 16:42 |
| kanzure | esc is on the left, numpad on the right | 16:43 |
| kanzure | yeah | 16:43 |
| kanzure | utility belt | 16:43 |
| kanzure | my utility belt includes ssh, what about you? | 16:43 |
| fenn | could work, seems like it would be uncomfortable | 16:43 |
| fenn | if you did it wrong it would bounce around a lot, and you have to squeeze your wrists in at a weird angle | 16:44 |
| fenn | gives me carpal tunnel just thinking about it :) | 16:44 |
| kanzure | go find a metal ring, go get your drill and try it | 16:44 |
| * kanzure wonders why he doesn't have a drill | 16:45 | |
| fenn | metal ring? | 16:45 |
| kanzure | well, unless you have chain or rope or something | 16:45 |
| kanzure | like a key chain thingy | 16:45 |
| fenn | if you ever want to saw a kb in half, i think it would work ok if you sawed two in half (keeping the flex-circuit-board intact) and plugged both in | 16:46 |
| fenn | otherwise you have to connect all the wires together, which might not work so well on that flex membrane switch stuff | 16:47 |
| fenn | of course ideally you'd do some sort of chording keyboard so you could type the whole alphabet+symbols with one hand | 16:48 |
| kanzure | my experiences with chording have not made me happy | 16:49 |
| fenn | yeah, figures | 16:49 |
| fenn | could switch between modes | 16:49 |
| kanzure | http://www.billbuxton.com/matias93.html 60 wpm on half kb study | 16:49 |
| kanzure | http://store.ergoguys.com/mathk.html | 16:50 |
| kanzure | why do these cost so much | 16:50 |
| kanzure | the pcb isn't complex .. | 16:50 |
| kanzure | the keys are pre-manufactured | 16:50 |
| fenn | oooo wow "hunt-and-peck typing speeds were surpassed after 3-4 hours of practice" </snark> | 16:50 |
| fenn | really there should be some free AVR/PIC projects out there | 16:51 |
| fenn | its just some switches and serial protocol | 16:51 |
| kanzure | right | 16:51 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/projects/keymemproj/ | 16:52 |
| fenn | half keyboard is missing a lot of shit | 16:52 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/projects/keymemproj/project.html had some notes on the protocol | 16:52 |
| fenn | like, how am i supposed to switch between screen sessions with only alphanumeric | 16:52 |
| fenn | hmm ok bad example | 16:52 |
| fenn | i wonder why they did the secondary letters backwards from normal qwerty | 16:53 |
| fenn | poiuy instead of yuiop | 16:54 |
| kanzure | weird mental cross-reference thing? | 16:54 |
| kanzure | that doens't make sense I guess. | 16:54 |
| kanzure | *doesn't | 16:54 |
| kanzure | http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/showthread.php?t=9497 diy split keyboard | 16:54 |
| kanzure | 'I thought of an idea of having a keyboard split down the middle and placing one half of the keyboard on each side' (of his tablet) | 16:55 |
| kanzure | not bad :) | 16:55 |
| kanzure | especially if the screen would be able to tilt .. | 16:55 |
| kanzure | independently of the kb .. | 16:55 |
| kanzure | hah | 16:57 |
| kanzure | he's online, cool | 16:57 |
| fenn | except there's not really any information there.. | 16:57 |
| kanzure | he couldn't do it apparently | 16:58 |
| fenn | wah, so what | 16:59 |
| fenn | more crap, love the door stops: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/anderkoo/2007/05/02/product-review-kinesis-freestyle/ | 16:59 |
| fenn | i'd like two of those with a half-keyboard mode key, so you could type with one hand (in qwerty) | 17:00 |
| fenn | something like, rock your palm to the right for right side, rock to left for left side | 17:00 |
| kanzure | 'Designer Erik De Nijs, has stitched together this eye catching pair of "Beauty and the Geek" jeans. These "modern shaped trousers which are often worn by youngsters.." are the perfect solution for Googling quick exits while running from the fashion police. ' | 17:01 |
| kanzure | wait, they weren't real kb jeans | 17:01 |
| fenn | its not like it would be hard to make them that way, get a roll up silicone keyboard and glue it to some sweatpants | 17:02 |
| fenn | but it's a bad design for what should be obvious reasons | 17:02 |
| kanzure | right right | 17:02 |
| kanzure | $139 plus shipping for the 20 inch separation between the two parts on that Kinesis Freestyle thing | 17:03 |
| kanzure | $80 for the 6 inches | 17:03 |
| fenn | i think it is a real silicone keyboard on the trousers, note the huge pointless grey square on the right | 17:04 |
| kanzure | http://thecraftstudio.com/bcboy/keyboard.html | 17:05 |
| fenn | there are folding bluetooth kb's for palm pilot accessory, seems about right | 17:06 |
| kanzure | cool, he's doing split kb | 17:06 |
| kanzure | on that last link | 17:06 |
| kanzure | heh, he's an rpm user | 17:10 |
| kanzure | with the half kb you could mount to the jean loops still | 17:10 |
| kanzure | bkero: Know of the Microarchitecture Research Laboratory and Loh? | 17:14 |
| kanzure | http://justfortheloveofit.org/ | 17:14 |
| kanzure | http://mjam.at/ | 17:14 |
| fenn | freeconomy sorta reminds me of www.n55.dk | 17:23 |
| fenn | except they dont really invent anything | 17:23 |
| bkero | I don't | 17:58 |
| bkero | fenn: Try looking into a whuffie economy. :) | 17:59 |
| fenn | bkero: i've looked into it, the problem seems to be all the little details like how you actually calculate the damn thing | 18:05 |
| bkero | and the fact that your worth as a human being is based on popular opinion. | 18:06 |
| fenn | suits me | 18:06 |
| bkero | and as we all know, pop stars aren't worth their weight in shit. | 18:06 |
| fenn | your opinion will be weighted appropriately | 18:06 |
| fenn | i think it would be interesting to see real democracy for once | 18:06 |
| bkero | Yea. A couple people who would be bothered to despise them would drown out in middle school girls | 18:07 |
| bkero | The greeks had real democracy. | 18:07 |
| bkero | They all got together and argued. | 18:07 |
| bkero | And got drunk | 18:07 |
| fenn | see, that's the problem, it takes more effort to bump someone's whuffie than they're worth to you in the first place | 18:07 |
| bkero | And nothing was ever accomplished. ;) | 18:07 |
| fenn | woot! | 18:07 |
| fenn | these folding kb's are really cheap | 18:08 |
| fenn | http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00008W81P/ref=dp_olp_2 | 18:08 |
| fenn | i wonder if i should spend the extra $5 for new-new vs like-new | 18:09 |
| bkero | Ew? IR? | 18:09 |
| fenn | will probably have to hardware hack it anyway, IR is easy to interface with (better than bluetooth at least) | 18:10 |
| bkero | Er, I like bluetooth much better | 18:10 |
| fenn | most other kb's have some funky molded connector | 18:10 |
| bkero | Once you associate it's just a serial connection | 18:11 |
| bkero | Plus my laptop and phone have bluetooth, not IR | 18:11 |
| bkero | I fucking hate how even new wireless mice don't use bluetooth. They just use proprietary crap. | 18:11 |
| fenn | can you get bluetooth mice? | 18:11 |
| bkero | yes | 18:11 |
| bkero | You can get a couple | 18:11 |
| fenn | i remember reading somewhere that bluetooth chips were expensive | 18:11 |
| bkero | and they're pretty expensive | 18:11 |
| bkero | No dude, bluetooth was DESIGNED to be cheap | 18:11 |
| bkero | It was designed to add $8 to the total cost | 18:12 |
| fenn | why is blutooth-* expensive then? | 18:12 |
| bkero | Because assholes in the industry say OMG NEW HOTNESS +$8923748923748923 | 18:12 |
| fenn | hmm.. what's so good about bluetooth anyway? | 18:12 |
| bkero | It's standard | 18:12 |
| fenn | vs say zigbee | 18:12 |
| bkero | and included in any good laptop | 18:12 |
| fenn | where's my software radio! wah | 18:12 |
| bkero | You don't have to have some stupid dongle sticking out of your computer | 18:13 |
| fenn | you know, they really ought to make little usb cubby-holes | 18:13 |
| fenn | a little pocket in the laptop you put the usb device in | 18:13 |
| fenn | or wires, so they dont just snap off | 18:13 |
| bkero | I'd rather not. USB has some pretty bad issues when it comes to power saving. And nobody makes a hardened USB bus. :/ I can always get them to crash. | 18:14 |
| fenn | same for audio jacks | 18:14 |
| bkero | My fileserver has 8 hard drives in it attached via usb, and I've tried 2 different usb chipsets, both shit themselves under heavy load. | 18:14 |
| fenn | well, you wont find me championing usb :\ | 18:14 |
| bkero | I like firewire for hard drives, bluetooth for input devices | 18:14 |
| fenn | i like power over ethernet | 18:15 |
| fenn | but nobody makes anything for it | 18:15 |
| bkero | Until you plug a PoE cable into a regular ethernet port :P | 18:15 |
| fenn | no, it's electrically isolated | 18:16 |
| fenn | worst that would happen is it not power on | 18:16 |
| bkero | Erm | 18:16 |
| bkero | PoE involves moving a significant electric current through an ethernet cable? | 18:16 |
| fenn | i guess, fsov significant | 18:16 |
| bkero | Enough to power a devices | 18:16 |
| fenn | yes | 18:17 |
| bkero | Several watts | 18:17 |
| bkero | I'm wondering how that wouldn't blow a north bridge/ethernet chipset if plugged into a regular ethernet port. | 18:17 |
| fenn | because there are little tiny transformers that isolate the ethernet line | 18:17 |
| fenn | its like 1000V isolation standard | 18:17 |
| bkero | So you're saying there's current dampening on the regular ethernet's PCB side? | 18:18 |
| fenn | i dont know what 'current dampening' is supposed to mean, but it's an isolation transformer | 18:18 |
| bkero | What does it isolate it from? | 18:20 |
| fenn | it isolates the voltage in the two circuits | 18:20 |
| bkero | But it's the massive current you're worrieda bout. | 18:20 |
| fenn | non-POE jack wouldn't be drawing any current | 18:21 |
| fenn | and anyway it goes over unused wires that probably arent even connected | 18:21 |
| bkero | regular ethernet jacks carry 3v at 1mw. PoE jacks carry typically 5-12v at 5-10 watts | 18:21 |
| fenn | do you know what an isolation transformer is? | 18:22 |
| bkero | Yes | 18:22 |
| fenn | the "3v" is AC | 18:22 |
| fenn | PoE is DC | 18:22 |
| bkero | Right | 18:23 |
| bkero | But isolation transformers have specifications | 18:23 |
| bkero | Such as ratings | 18:23 |
| bkero | and if those input ratings are exceeded, functionality is questionable. | 18:23 |
| fenn | yes like isolation voltage, which i mentioned was 1000V or so, seems kinda hard to compare 12V to 1000V | 18:23 |
| fenn | but i dont think the power wires are even used in a normal ethernet jack | 18:24 |
| bkero | Depends on what bitrate they are | 18:24 |
| bkero | Full duplex gigabit will use 8 | 18:24 |
| bkero | Found some isolation transformer datasheets used in ethernet chipsets. Their rating is 3 watst. | 18:26 |
| fenn | aha there are two different modes, "A" and "B" | 18:26 |
| fenn | in "A" the power goes over the normal data lines (pins 1234) and in B they use the "spares" (5678) | 18:27 |
| fenn | er... actually B is 4578 (wtf) | 18:28 |
| bkero | yea | 18:28 |
| bkero | Don't want the two polarities right next to each other | 18:28 |
| bkero | Otherwise you get weird SNR issues, magnetic bleeding, and RF noise | 18:28 |
| fenn | i dont see why it matters since it's DC | 18:28 |
| bkero | Just because it's DC doesn't mean it's clean power | 18:29 |
| fenn | unless you have some hacky noisy DC-DC converter in there | 18:29 |
| bkero | You mean like most wall warts? | 18:29 |
| fenn | right | 18:29 |
| fenn | i dont see how it would make sense to send noisy DC power down a data line | 18:29 |
| bkero | It doesn't, that's why the parts are split. | 18:30 |
| bkero | *polarities are split | 18:30 |
| fenn | you shouldnt be using a cheap wall wart with POE because there's only one power source | 18:33 |
| fenn | so you dont need lke 50 different power supplies | 18:33 |
| bkero | You sure your PoE isn't using a cheap wall wart in a fancy box? | 18:33 |
| fenn | if cheap == don't work then yes | 18:34 |
| bkero | Cheap will work | 18:34 |
| fenn | you can easily tell though by lost/garbled packets | 18:34 |
| bkero | But it also has a myriad of problems, that usually aren't immediately recognisable. | 18:34 |
| bkero | For instance, is the power supply regulated? | 18:34 |
| bkero | If not then voltage spikes on the supply side can get fed through into your PoE devices, and some might not have the hardware to handle that. | 18:35 |
| fenn | they can get fed through anyway | 18:35 |
| bkero | Yes, but with a good power supply it'll do a much better job at preventing it | 18:35 |
| fenn | right, that's it's job | 18:35 |
| fenn | look, if your cheap wall wart kills the POE device, then that's the device maker's problem | 18:36 |
| bkero | Most cheap power supplies aren't regulated however, so if you're using one on hardware that's expecting clean regulated power, bad things can happen if you get some vdroop or a vspike. | 18:36 |
| * bkero should test the ethernet on his computer to see exactly how many watts the isolation transformer can take before it pops. | 18:38 | |
| fenn | bah just hook it straight to the mains | 18:40 |
| fenn | btw there is a handshaking protocol before any power is delivered | 18:40 |
| bkero | I thought there would be | 18:41 |
| kanzure | 'More than 90,000 attendees from 119 countries have assembled in Chicago to be privy to pretty much every type of manufacturing machines and technology being used on today's shop floor. Here are some highlights.' http://enews.thomasnet.com/ct.jsp?uz3763235Biz7266198 rosetta stone of interoperability | 19:09 |
| kanzure | wonder if they're just yanking my chain | 19:09 |
| kanzure | also, how the hell does Chicago support 90,000 hotel rooms | 19:10 |
| kanzure | that's rather impressive .. | 19:10 |
| kanzure | 'In a demo here this week, at the MAG Industrial Automation Systems booth, Next Engine has displayed technology that could open up reverse-engineering technology to a much wider user base: a low-cost reverse-engineering system that includes a 3-D scanner and some sophisticated software. The company used its system to reverse-engineer a Ferrari (OK, so it was really a toy model). The cost is 1/10 that of competing systems.' | 19:10 |
| kanzure | so was it reverse engineered or not | 19:10 |
| kanzure | I'm confused | 19:11 |
| kanzure | 'But it's a new open-source communication protocol standard called MTConnect that really has a pervasive presence at IMTS.' | 19:11 |
| kanzure | http://www.mtconnect.org/ | 19:11 |
| kanzure | ' | 19:11 |
| kanzure | Basically, MTConnect serves as "middleware" between the machine controller and higher-level applications. It provides a means to describe, for instance, actual and command positions of a machine tool's axes of motion as well as pretty much any data a sensor can capture. And, it offers basic alarms and notification functionality. Using XML-based descriptions of various machine functions (e.g., spindle time, machine tool temperature, power status, etc.) | 19:11 |
| kanzure | 'According to the exhibit, manufacturers spend $90 billion a year on interoperability issues. Many large users of machine tools already have proprietary solutions to their data-connectivity problems, but the MTConnect approach could open up new doors for small companies and university researchers.' | 19:12 |
| kanzure | $90 billion | 19:12 |
| kanzure | solved by an XML schema | 19:12 |
| kanzure | wtf | 19:12 |
| kanzure | well, not quite 'solved' | 19:12 |
| kanzure | but with 90,000 people hearing about it or something | 19:12 |
| kanzure | who the hell releases a white paper in a doc file | 19:13 |
| kanzure | http://mtconnect.org/media/MTConnectWhitePaper.doc | 19:13 |
| bkero | kanzure: There were 80,000 people at PAX this year :) | 19:13 |
| kanzure | and then calls it open source? | 19:13 |
| kanzure | PAX? | 19:13 |
| bkero | Penny Arcade Expo | 19:14 |
| bkero | A bunch of dribbling teenagers | 19:14 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/user/MTConnect | 19:14 |
| kanzure | Hah. | 19:14 |
| kanzure | Awesome. | 19:14 |
| kanzure | no mtconnect mention on Wikipedia | 19:14 |
| kanzure | *cough* | 19:14 |
| kanzure | Software Architecture for CAM Tools to Enable a Flexible Digital Factory http://mtconnect.org/media/architecture.pdf | 19:15 |
| bkero | Add it yourself? | 19:15 |
| kanzure | bkero: I'm investigating first :) | 19:15 |
| kanzure | .net sdk for mtconnect devel | 19:22 |
| kanzure | http://mtconnect.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=122&Itemid=50 | 19:22 |
| kanzure | yeah, that's *real* open | 19:22 |
| kanzure | ok | 19:25 |
| kanzure | so what they're doing is having an 'agent' architecture where agents query the local address space for components | 19:25 |
| kanzure | and then they check to see what they know about those types of agents | 19:25 |
| kanzure | and then they have agent-to-device adapters and such | 19:26 |
| kanzure | yuck, they're using Windows + windows shares on a manufacturing floor | 19:28 |
| kanzure | plus HTTP queries between devices | 19:28 |
| kanzure | where's our gnu overlords when we need them .. | 19:30 |
| bkero | kanzure: lets do some manufaxturing process reform! | 19:46 |
| kanzure | bkero: How do you expect to do this without a factory? :p | 19:47 |
| bkero | kanzure: a factory in china is about $0.50 a day | 19:48 |
| kanzure | what does that money buy me? | 19:48 |
| bkero | 200000 laborers and 3 retoolings | 19:49 |
| kanzure | hrm | 19:52 |
| kanzure | 1st International Conference on Bioinformatics and Computational Biology April 8-10, 2009, New Orleans, Louisiana USA https://secure.myhostadvantage.com/V0015065FC/con-reg/default.asp?ConID=85 | 20:28 |
| kanzure | Hey boogles. | 20:29 |
| boogles | Hey there. | 20:30 |
| kanzure | Note that chizu is probably your coworker. | 20:30 |
| kanzure | *coworker too. | 20:30 |
| boogles | Heh, I don't currently have any coworkers. :P | 20:30 |
| kanzure | OSUOL. | 20:30 |
| boogles | But yeah, I know chizu | 20:30 |
| boogles | Yeah. | 20:30 |
| kanzure | What's with Ohio State and #hplusroadmap :-) | 20:30 |
| boogles | You mean oregon state? | 20:31 |
| kanzure | boogles: At the moment I'm writing some emails to the openmanufacturing group, and might get back in a bit. Until then, check the wiki in the /topic. | 20:31 |
| kanzure | Oops. Yes. | 20:31 |
| boogles | Cool, I'll check that out later. | 20:37 |
| boogles | Thanks for the info. :) | 20:38 |
| kanzure | Hey marcel2. | 20:45 |
| kanzure | boogles: We do stuff in here like automated manufacturing/design, brain implants, bioreactors, and lots of complaining. | 20:45 |
| marcel2 | hello | 21:10 |
| marcel2 | roadmap to what? | 21:10 |
| kanzure | http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/2008/09/sort/time_rev/page/1/entry/2:253/20080912075604:CDF9D9A6-80C1-11DD-AF15-FB8BA6911C2E/ 'realistics' | 21:14 |
| kanzure | marcel2: I was assembling technologies that were a roadmap for a transhuman to follow, i.e., what do I do next - specifically what research needs to be done to solve some important problem. | 21:15 |
| marcel2 | what is the next thing to do? | 21:28 |
| kanzure | supply chain closure, might be the right way to say it | 21:31 |
| kanzure | are you familiar with manufacturing? | 21:31 |
| kanzure | I'm lagging because I just read the most terrible email all day .."Unfortunately we cannot define what output is useful above our own intelligence level. We have to rely on external tests by systems that are more complex than a single human brain. I know of two such systems. One is the economy, which measures intelligence in dollars. The other is evolution, which measures intelligence in number of descendants." | 21:31 |
| kanzure | argh, wrong wrong wrong | 21:31 |
| marcel2 | sure? | 21:32 |
| marcel2 | sounds no tbad | 21:32 |
| marcel2 | but iam silly^^ so it maybe really wrong | 21:33 |
| kanzure | Specifically what's wrong with it is that 'intelligence' is a folk psychology concept; it's not from systems neuroscience from the ground up, but rather from our guesses about the way that the brain works | 21:33 |
| -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 14 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 14 normal] | 21:34 | |
| bkero | boogles: Your questions are best asked here :) | 21:34 |
| bkero | boogles: feel like shaving your head? ;) | 21:34 |
| kanzure | bkero found an excellent method of shampoo + pennies for electrodes. | 21:34 |
| kanzure | By 'excellent' I mean I haven't tried it yet ;-) | 21:35 |
| kanzure | Hey marainein | 21:35 |
| bkero | So | 21:35 |
| marainein | hi kanzure | 21:35 |
| bkero | kanzure: interesting find | 21:35 |
| marainein | what did you find? | 21:35 |
| kanzure | bkero: 'Realistics' ? | 21:35 |
| kanzure | bkero: See my response. It should be there now, refresh. | 21:35 |
| kanzure | http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/2008/09/sort/time_rev/page/1/entry/2:253/20080912075604:CDF9D9A6-80C1-11DD-AF15-FB8BA6911C2E/ | 21:35 |
| bkero | My landlord's wive was pregnant, and has ultrasound gel sitting around. Do you think that it would work for a conductor? | 21:35 |
| kanzure | Ugh, what's the gel? | 21:36 |
| bkero | Not sure yet | 21:36 |
| marcel2 | is this a pervers channel?? | 21:36 |
| kanzure | A what? | 21:36 |
| bkero | Wikipedia just says it's a water-based gel. | 21:37 |
| marcel2 | nothing iam quiet now | 21:37 |
| bkero | kanzure: i think he meant perverse | 21:37 |
| bkero | marcel2: No, I'm using it for SCIENCE! | 21:37 |
| kanzure | marcel2: Anyway, to answer your question - if you are interested in the next steps in becoming transhuman, basically it's looking like it requires the ability to create on your own - so this means the ability to manufacture, perhaps biologically ( http://biohack.sf.net/ ) or perhaps with heavy metal etc. http://heybryan.org/exp.html | 21:38 |
| kanzure | re: "realistics" - I sent a response: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/2008/09/sort/time_rev/page/1/entry/2:256/20080912172325:FB0C08FC-8110-11DD-8F74-809794291AF4/ | 21:39 |
| marcel2 | prototypeprinter fpr everybody | 21:40 |
| marcel2 | that would be raly cool yes | 21:40 |
| kanzure | typos? | 21:40 |
| marcel2 | ? | 21:40 |
| marcel2 | what? | 21:40 |
| kanzure | fpr? | 21:40 |
| marcel2 | for | 21:40 |
| kanzure | oh, okay | 21:40 |
| marcel2 | realy | 21:41 |
| kanzure | It's not just prototypers though :-) | 21:41 |
| -!- marcel2 is now known as marcel_sleep | 21:44 | |
| kanzure | http://socialsynergyweb.org/oardc | 22:06 |
| bkero | lolsynergy | 22:30 |
| kanzure | hrm | 22:58 |
| kanzure | we need an 'archive bot' - to retrieve books from library holdings and turn to a certain page and scan over the page with a live web cam | 22:58 |
| kanzure | or just a mounted mechanical arm on the ceiling with tracks | 22:58 |
| kanzure | oh | 23:02 |
| kanzure | apply palm to face | 23:03 |
| kanzure | what the lab is doing over here for their own online repository (which I'm still trying to find the link to) is reverse engineering to figure out 'parts' that they don't have in their db | 23:03 |
| kanzure | by knowing the inputs and outputs from simple investigations of the product to be reverse engineered | 23:03 |
| kanzure | sort of. they're not focusing on that much. | 23:03 |
| kanzure | Hi again marcel. | 23:13 |
| kanzure | 'Capturing creativity: Using a design repository to drive concept innovation' | 23:16 |
| fenn | realistics = reciprocality, but poorly stated | 23:45 |
| fenn | industrial device manufacturers have a vested interest in poor interoperability, it's called "vendor lock-in" | 23:45 |
| fenn | they'll sell you the computer for $50 but the connectors cost $150 etc | 23:45 |
| kanzure | recpirocality.org specifically? yes | 23:48 |
| fenn | i thought google was supposed to be doing the whole archive bot thing | 23:48 |
| fenn | yes | 23:48 |
| kanzure | no, google does it by hand | 23:48 |
| kanzure | I've seen fingers in Google books | 23:48 |
| kanzure | holding the pages open .. | 23:48 |
| fenn | well, whatever.. but where's the DATA | 23:48 |
| kanzure | hm? | 23:48 |
| fenn | i mean i can't just look up whatever journal article or book | 23:49 |
| fenn | have to pay $10-200 a pop | 23:49 |
| kanzure | you're confusing me | 23:49 |
| fenn | if they even offer, usually it's just "sorry you are not allowed" | 23:49 |
| kanzure | right | 23:50 |
| kanzure | I'm confused anyway at the moment | 23:51 |
| kanzure | for some reason I was checking mail, a professor sent me some papers to read, so I read them | 23:51 |
| kanzure | and now I'm left wondering what it was that I was doing | 23:51 |
| fenn | wow that last paragraph was off the wall: "Anyway, it's context that matters when it comes to groundtruthing | 23:53 |
| fenn | citations and traces in information ecologies, and not so much the | 23:53 |
| fenn | symbolic manipulation thereof. It's the overall groundtruthed process, | 23:53 |
| fenn | the instantiated exploding von Neumann probe phylum that will | 23:53 |
| fenn | ultimately (not) grey goo you. | 23:53 |
| kanzure | uhm, when I reread it | 23:53 |
| kanzure | I realized that I dissed programs | 23:53 |
| fenn | my markov chain bot could write that :) | 23:53 |
| kanzure | with 'symbolic manipulation' | 23:53 |
| kanzure | guess my summary sucked because it was more of a generalization | 23:53 |
| kanzure | but surely you understand the idea of "HEY look over there! it's reality ! go touch it! erm, not you. you stay put" etc. | 23:54 |
| fenn | i think when he's talking about "realizing" it's not so much about following citations back to their original sources, but rather having gone through a sort of 'play' period where you interact with real systems and have an opportunity to build up/internalize a model of how it works | 23:55 |
| kanzure | to play with them you have to chase them down the wabbit hole | 23:56 |
| fenn | kids have no opportunity to 'play' with math | 23:56 |
| kanzure | red pill / blue pill | 23:56 |
| fenn | they can't even use a fucking calculator, the sickos | 23:56 |
| kanzure | mathematica is a pretty good opportunity | 23:56 |
| fenn | mathematica is a great opportunity | 23:56 |
| fenn | i tried maxima and didnt like it | 23:57 |
| kanzure | I tried matlab and didn't launch over the ssh tunnel | 23:57 |
| kanzure | ssh -X | 23:57 |
| fenn | does matlab run on linux? | 23:57 |
| kanzure | the bootup logo worked though :p | 23:57 |
| kanzure | maybe, I'm pretty sure I was working with a linux version | 23:57 |
| fenn | lol "matlab is available on the following platforms: Linux, 7.6" | 23:58 |
| kanzure | especially since I got their splash | 23:58 |
| fenn | i guess that means redhat 7.6 | 23:58 |
| kanzure | weird | 23:58 |
| kanzure | I wonder what uninformed person wrote that | 23:58 |
| kanzure | surely not the webmaster? | 23:58 |
| fenn | oh oops that's matlab version 7.6 | 23:59 |
| kanzure | uninformed person was you :( | 23:59 |
| * fenn boggles | 23:59 | |
| fenn | i thought it was up to 14 | 23:59 |
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