| --- Day changed Fri Sep 26 2008 | ||
| fenn | now there's an idea.. i wonder how big the patents db is | 00:09 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | The database now offers the public an additional 1.7 terabytes of full-page images for the 4204863 US patents issued from 1790 through 1975. | 00:10 |
| fenn | delphion says 9TB | 00:10 |
| kanzure | That's not bad. | 00:10 |
| kanzure | procto, you could cover that right? | 00:11 |
| kanzure | You have your startups doing data processing, right? | 00:11 |
| fenn | i bet it could be slimmed down a lot. i think they use .tiff images and suchforth, and also keep separate documents for all the applications and revisions and miscellaneous crap nobody cares about except lawyers | 00:12 |
| fenn | We have over 100 gigabytes of data which includes the full text of US patents from number 4000000 to 6857132 (most patents before 4,000,000 exist only as images, not searchable text). As more patents are published by the US Patent Office, we add them. We also have over 2 terabytes (a terabyte is 1000 gigabytes) of images so that you can view the illustration from the patents. (freepatentsonline.com) | 00:13 |
| fenn | gzip + jpeg prolly get it all under 50GB | 00:13 |
| kanzure | I'm not about to do an http rip on freepatentsonline | 00:13 |
| kanzure | Where'd they get their db? | 00:13 |
| kanzure | wgetting 100 GB just feels flat out wrong. | 00:14 |
| kanzure | I've wget a max of 5 GB before, but the http overhead is kind of nasty. | 00:14 |
| kanzure | tcp overhead too. yay. | 00:14 |
| fenn | what would you do with a patents db anyway? | 00:15 |
| kanzure | page segmentation algorithms on the PDFs or image files | 00:16 |
| kanzure | reverse engineering with statistical analysis of part names | 00:16 |
| kanzure | then automated generation of the reconstructed designs | 00:16 |
| kanzure | based off of the probabilities of different hierarchical/graph-network-theoretic connections in the conceptual design | 00:16 |
| kanzure | that sort of thing. :) | 00:17 |
| fenn | just because it's patented doesn't mean the design is any good | 00:17 |
| kanzure | it's more for fun than anything practical | 00:17 |
| kanzure | this is true. | 00:17 |
| kanzure | so, what about just the patents that are referenced in scientific literature or something | 00:17 |
| kanzure | sometimes citations point to a patent | 00:17 |
| fenn | and there's a trend to making it impossible to figure out wtf the patent is talking about, so you couldnt reconstruct the design anyway | 00:17 |
| kanzure | bleh | 00:17 |
| kanzure | well | 00:17 |
| kanzure | it's not for one-to-one reconstruction | 00:17 |
| kanzure | more for .. seeding :) | 00:17 |
| kanzure | oh crap, this isn't an OCRed dataset is it? | 00:18 |
| fenn | it is, but not before 1975? | 00:18 |
| fenn | or something like that | 00:18 |
| kanzure | typewritters can be hard to OCR sometimes. | 00:18 |
| kanzure | I wonder if there's anything useful for seeding databases in there. | 00:25 |
| kanzure | oh, if that was to work the parts would have to already be in the database | 00:25 |
| kanzure | it's not exactly a modular approach, even with the citations that each patent have to other patents | 00:25 |
| fenn | i decoded the binary in the star wars pic.. the first droid says "lol" and the second says "lulz" | 00:27 |
| kanzure | what was the encoding | 00:28 |
| fenn | imperial standard | 00:28 |
| kanzure | i am fluent in over six million forms of communication, it's not an alliance code. | 00:28 |
| kanzure | why did google get the patent db? | 00:43 |
| kanzure | is the uspto discriminating against people? | 00:43 |
| kanzure | http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/pubs/ Office of Patent Publications | 00:43 |
| kanzure | http://patft.uspto.gov/ | 00:50 |
| kanzure | on CD? http://ebiz1.uspto.gov/oems25p/index.html | 00:52 |
| kanzure | ' Delivery of Documents: Certified copies of issued/published patent applications as filed and patent file wrappers may be delivered over the Internet or mailed to you on CDROM. Internet delivery is also available for uncertified copies of patents and patent application publications. Other documents may only be delivered in paper form via U.S. Postal Service' | 00:52 |
| kanzure | http://ebiz1.uspto.gov/vision-service/Product_Services_P/msgShowProductSets?category=P <-- I don't understand much of this. | 00:54 |
| kanzure | http://patft.uspto.gov/help/notices.htm ' These databases are intended for use by the general public. Due to limitations of equipment and bandwidth, they are not intended to be a source for bulk downloads of USPTO data. Individuals, companies, IP addresses, or blocks of IP addresses who, in effect, deny service to the general public by generating unusually high numbers (10,000 or more, roughly equivalent to viewing 1,000 patents) of daily databa | 00:55 |
| kanzure | http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/catalog/prices/priclist.htm | 00:56 |
| kanzure | price list | 00:56 |
| kanzure | What is all of this ? They hardly have descriptions. | 00:57 |
| kanzure | http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/catalog/products/pp-o2w-2.htm#GrantXML5364ol XML data sets? really? | 00:58 |
| kanzure | grr, the design repo kicked me off, I've been downloading "your session has expired" for hours. | 01:06 |
| kanzure | http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-09/usmc-cie091508.php Another case of nanotubes + brain stimulation. | 02:19 |
| ybit | there are several databases that are being grabbed | 02:23 |
| ybit | is there a list of everyone? | 02:24 |
| ybit | perhaps it would be good to make an hplusroadmap torrent tracker? | 02:24 |
| kanzure | http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/09/growing-bamboo.html <-- Growing bikes. ;-) Apparently it's like the aluminum frame bikes. | 02:24 |
| ybit | it would save me time looking through the logs to find interesting things being downloaded | 02:25 |
| kanzure | re-ask question | 02:25 |
| ybit | i saw that mentioned by "kim" on some mailing list but she didn't have a link | 02:25 |
| kanzure | do you want me to start indexing my downloading sprees? | 02:25 |
| kanzure | No, that was on diybio | 02:25 |
| kanzure | and it came with a link :) | 02:25 |
| ybit | ah | 02:26 |
| ybit | is there a list of what everyone here is downloading?""" was the question i believe | 02:26 |
| ybit | hm, not a bad bike | 02:26 |
| kanzure | there's no master list file yet | 02:26 |
| kanzure | archive is kind of hairy and large, untamed | 02:26 |
| kanzure | matweb, biobricks, portions of ncbi, human genome, decodeme files from everyone who has released their data upon the internet, a ridiculously large amount of stuff taken from lab servers, | 02:28 |
| kanzure | there's a lot of nature in there | 02:28 |
| ybit | ot, concerning star wars: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv5iEK-IEzw | 02:28 |
| kanzure | is that the one that blew up? | 02:28 |
| * kanzure finds a browser that will play flash | 02:29 | |
| procto | I'm really not sure how well the connections between the bamboo tubes can hold | 02:29 |
| kanzure | a 'wicker bike' doesn't sound all that great | 02:30 |
| procto | well, bamboo is very strong | 02:31 |
| procto | but a bent bamboo's weak point is the bend | 02:31 |
| kanzure | ybit: I seem to remember you downloading stuff as well. | 02:38 |
| ybit | kanzure: just the git repo | 02:52 |
| ybit | other than that, most files have been deleted | 02:52 |
| * kanzure is still looking for anything other than "first come first serve" to land/matter/energy | 02:53 | |
| kanzure | and you want me to deploy a torrent tracker? | 03:00 |
| ybit | just saying it would helpful for everyone | 03:01 |
| ybit | if enough peopel gather diff. DBs than a torrent tracker would be nice | 03:02 |
| * ybit still can | 03:02 | |
| ybit | 't figure out what's with my server | 03:02 |
| kanzure | your server? where? | 03:03 |
| ybit | the second power supply didn't even get a response from the machine | 03:03 |
| ybit | my home | 03:03 |
| ybit | laying beside me right now | 03:03 |
| kanzure | I meant in the DNS lookup tables | 03:03 |
| kanzure | as in, give me the IP or URL, foo' | 03:04 |
| ybit | *@dyndns.org sometime | 03:04 |
| ybit | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_370hPM8Cfg | 03:04 |
| ybit | speaking of dyndns, met someone who knew what kde and octave was | 03:05 |
| ybit | he runs open solaris, i'm guessing for zfs, though he was talking about mathematica | 03:06 |
| * ybit wonders if he likes java | 03:06 | |
| kanzure | I'm not familiar with zfs, is it a fs? | 03:07 |
| ybit | yeah | 03:07 |
| ybit | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zfs | 03:07 |
| ybit | nsh: did you ever get any feedback to your thoughs on LETS? | 03:10 |
| ybit | (and similar systems) | 03:10 |
| kanzure | Hey gene. | 03:23 |
| gene | hell | 03:23 |
| gene | o | 03:23 |
| gene | yes | 03:24 |
| gene | what is the name of the nanotech IRC server? | 03:25 |
| kanzure | Nanotech IRC server? | 03:28 |
| gene | yeah | 03:30 |
| kanzure | I haven't heard of it. | 03:32 |
| kanzure | Anybody have the old arxiv torrent links? | 03:32 |
| ybit | the closest thing i can come up with is #u-labs on undernet | 03:32 |
| ybit | gene ^ | 03:33 |
| gene | isn't arxiv free? | 03:46 |
| kanzure | gene: They do not allow crawls. | 03:48 |
| gene | dang it | 03:57 |
| gene | my mouse is messed up | 03:57 |
| kanzure | http://uniteddiversity.com/nano-powered-electric-brompton-folding-bike/ | 03:58 |
| gene | cool | 04:01 |
| gene | I want to do that except with a powered skateboard | 04:01 |
| gene | So who can figure out if this works or not: http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/09/chinese-buildin.html | 04:52 |
| gene | I have my money on does not work | 04:55 |
| kanzure | fenn: we could title the paper, "Reverse engineering of every patent ever." | 05:09 |
| kanzure | Everybody would be all over it. | 05:09 |
| fenn | fail to see how epoxy drenched hemp is more "green" than aluminum | 05:32 |
| fenn | anyway bamboo bikes are old news: http://www.bmeres.com/index.htm | 05:34 |
| fenn | (i went through a bamboo phase a couple years ago) | 05:34 |
| kanzure | heh :) | 05:36 |
| kanzure | bamboo hut and everything? | 05:37 |
| fenn | geodesic domes | 05:37 |
| fenn | i never came up with a good enough strain relief coupling for the vertices | 05:37 |
| fenn | too many conflicting requirements.. i was overengineering things | 05:38 |
| fenn | main problem seems to be supply though | 05:38 |
| fenn | if you have to order the shit from china it doesn't make it any better than just getting electrical conduit from the scrap yard | 05:38 |
| fenn | (even though bamboo grows like a weed here) | 05:39 |
| kanzure | overengineering? | 05:40 |
| kanzure | How far over? | 05:40 |
| fenn | ok backing up a step, i was trying to make a pillow dome, which consists of a rigid geodesic dome frame sheathed in inflatable plastic traingular bubbles | 05:40 |
| fenn | the bubbles were supposed to press tightly against the frame, which should be straight and smooth to make a good seal | 05:41 |
| fenn | so if i did something like, wrap a rubber tube around the bamboo and then put a split piece of conduit over that, the frame tube is no longer the same diameter throughout | 05:42 |
| fenn | so it wouldnt seal right | 05:42 |
| fenn | maybe something like that but inside out might work (silicone caulk over a stud on the inside) | 05:43 |
| fenn | also my bamboo wasn't straight, not sure how that happened | 05:43 |
| fenn | harvested it myself | 05:44 |
| fenn | not much tensile strength in the radial direction though, so the stud would easily split the bamboo, which wouldnt happen with an outer pipe | 05:45 |
| kanzure | oh, so were you just iteratively making changes that required you to redesign the other components? | 05:46 |
| fenn | i was trying to fit bamboo into a scheme that i had worked out for metal tubing | 05:46 |
| fenn | and it wasnt instant enlightenment | 05:46 |
| fenn | if 'change to bamboo' is an iteration, then yeah i guess | 05:48 |
| kanzure | if it only stopped there then nevermind :) | 05:48 |
| fenn | ffs you'd think google could make a simple webpage that loaded properly | 05:49 |
| fenn | in one browser it reloads over and over, and in the other it says The page - www.google.com/?hl=en - does not exist. | 05:50 |
| gene | epoxy can be made from plants | 05:56 |
| fenn | anything carbon based can be made from plants | 05:56 |
| gene | yeah | 05:57 |
| fenn | burning diesel made from soybean oil is worse for the environment than petroleum | 05:57 |
| gene | plants make resins | 05:57 |
| fenn | the hemp "burl" on that bike does look really neat though | 05:58 |
| gene | http://www.suscomp.com/index.htm | 06:01 |
| gene | 96% vegetable oil UV cure resin | 06:01 |
| gene | hmmmm | 06:02 |
| gene | wonder if I could use a similar process to electrospin MMA without acetone | 06:02 |
| gene | so I could do it in my dorm | 06:02 |
| fenn | can't you just buy some nanotubes? | 06:07 |
| gene | I'm not interested in making nanotubes | 06:08 |
| fenn | or whatever you call a pmma filament | 06:08 |
| gene | probably not | 06:08 |
| fenn | or write to some researcher and ask for a sample | 06:08 |
| gene | not 8 nm nanofiber | 06:08 |
| gene | it's also quite easy to make | 06:09 |
| fenn | apparently not | 06:09 |
| gene | you take some PMMA dissolve it in acetone | 06:09 |
| fenn | it doesn't dissolve very well btw | 06:10 |
| gene | yeah I know | 06:10 |
| fenn | methylene chloride works way better, but good luck getting that | 06:10 |
| gene | you have to sonicate it | 06:10 |
| gene | but, I have an interesting solution to that | 06:10 |
| fenn | i got some acrylic cement on ebay for ~$25 | 06:10 |
| fenn | it contains methylene chloride and maybe some acrylate monomers | 06:11 |
| gene | then it can probably be electrospun | 06:11 |
| gene | put solution in needle charge up needle | 06:11 |
| gene | direct needle at tin foil ground | 06:11 |
| gene | of course you have to provide some pressure to the needle and adjust the flow rate | 06:12 |
| gene | which might be my problem | 06:12 |
| fenn | thickness is probably some function of viscosity, voltage, and distance between needle and plate | 06:13 |
| gene | you have to adjust the flow rate in the needle with some special high accuracy needle squeezer | 06:15 |
| gene | of course if it may not require high accuracy | 06:15 |
| gene | http://www.coe.drexel.edu/ret/personalsites/2006/Sees/researchfocus.html | 06:16 |
| gene | electrospinning set up | 06:16 |
| fenn | zoinks talk about old news bamboo bikes: http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/wlhba/articleView.asp?pg=1&id=10367&pn=0 | 06:44 |
| fenn | one hundred years ago you could buy a bike of hickory, elm or even bamboo. Bamboo bicycle companies claimed wood was lighter and better than steel, and so it was. In 1899 some of these companies folded with investors claiming to have been "bamboozled". | 06:46 |
| fenn | "design" apparently means bashing your head against the wall over and over again: http://gp.co.at/stayfocused/jano/pix/jano_presketches_760px.jpg | 06:52 |
| kanzure | fenn: and thus the helmet was born. | 07:08 |
| fenn | i got some snail mail today with a glossy photo of olaf sporns on it, apparently he's being named a 'distinguished faculty member' | 07:30 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing | 12:50 |
| kanzure | I'm still impressed with the high amount of 'convergenceness' going on there | 12:50 |
| kanzure | feels extropic :) | 12:50 |
| kanzure | hrm, where did http://openp2pdesign.org/ come from ? | 12:54 |
| kanzure | http://redesignme.com/ - "where everybody is a product (re)designer" | 12:54 |
| kanzure | 30667 | 16:08 |
| * kanzure just got an email from the Singularity Institute asking me to view their rough draft "to be signed by luminaries" announcing their concerns for ai | 16:18 | |
| kanzure | I dislike how SIAI is just a front for Eli's cult | 16:18 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/2008-09-26_ai_singularity_statement.html <- I am not impressed. | 16:31 |
| kanzure | http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Order_of_Cosmic_Engineers:Prospectus | 16:39 |
| kanzure | Everything's too staggard. | 16:40 |
| kanzure | What's the solution? | 16:44 |
| kanzure | http://www.buddhism-dict.net/ddb/indexes/term-en.html digital dictionary of buddhism | 17:06 |
| kanzure | http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/articles/buddhist_steps.html Buddhist steps to an ecology of mind | 17:07 |
| kanzure | oops, ignore | 17:07 |
| kanzure | ??? Deva of increase and growth; | 17:09 |
| kanzure | Does anyone know how to do romanizations? | 17:10 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_growth <-- why does this link over to open source religion? | 17:13 |
| kanzure | oh, which reminds me | 17:36 |
| kanzure | whenever nsh gets back, somebody tell him to go look up hypereconomy and (the now dead) sasha | 17:37 |
| kanzure | http://www.aepalizage.com/lhp/aid.html <-- This reads like it's straight out of Neverness. | 17:52 |
| kanzure | "Left Hand Path" | 17:52 |
| kanzure | uh, fappage? | 17:52 |
| kanzure | http://www.aepalizage.com/lhp/genesis.html yay poems | 17:53 |
| kanzure | allen institute has released spinal cord map according to ##neuroscience | 17:56 |
| kanzure | http://www.ucadia.com/default.htm Haha. "UCADIA = Complete Economic-Political-Social-Spiritual-Scientific model of the world". | 18:19 |
| kanzure | hehe, these guys are always fun. | 18:19 |
| kanzure | ' http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/09/24/nkorea.nuclear.plant/index.html#cnnSTCText | 18:26 |
| kanzure | The key passage therein is "Last week, a South Korean news agency reported that North Korea was restoring a reactor at Yongbyon nuclear complex and no longer wanted to be removed from a U.S. list of countries that sponsor terrorism."' | 18:26 |
| UtopiahGHML | hi #hplusroadmap | 20:17 |
| kanzure_ | Hey there. | 20:18 |
| kanzure_ | Okay. So compatibility re: formats. | 20:18 |
| kanzure_ | http://repository.designengineeringlab.org/ (free registration required) has a partial file format, but it kind of sucks. | 20:18 |
| kanzure_ | Basically I've been assuming that we'll just go with git + ikiwiki + YAML, where YAML would be for 'metadata' much like the .deb format (specifically the .dsc files inside of it) | 20:19 |
| UtopiahGHML | any API to submit files, check for coherence, simulation, etc...? | 20:19 |
| kanzure_ | file submission is basically via git | 20:19 |
| UtopiahGHML | ok | 20:19 |
| kanzure_ | simulation is a conceptual difficulty at this point though | 20:19 |
| kanzure_ | Consider a frankenstein construction that you design | 20:19 |
| UtopiahGHML | do you have a documented full process that has already produced a result? | 20:20 |
| kanzure_ | Say you have a smooth surface and a curved concave metal plate; how do you know their interconnection and where would this be specified? | 20:20 |
| kanzure_ | There are results, but these results are not a result of SKDB / our work | 20:20 |
| kanzure_ | as it turns out, the lab that I'm currently sitting in has done some related stuffs | 20:20 |
| kanzure_ | there's about 20 posters outside these walls showing the automated redesign and simulation of various physical shapes for rockets | 20:20 |
| kanzure_ | (nose cone optimization) | 20:21 |
| UtopiahGHML | ok, do they have relations with TechShop as I said before or similar places? | 20:21 |
| UtopiahGHML | do you actuall intend to have such a physical location? | 20:22 |
| UtopiahGHML | or sth in this style | 20:22 |
| kanzure_ | Yes, physical locations and all that-- | 20:24 |
| UtopiahGHML | (sorry if you don't like the comparison but it's the only things of this style I know ;) | 20:24 |
| kanzure_ | I have lab space arranged here, I just need to drop the $10k for it | 20:24 |
| kanzure_ | Tech Shop -- see also Fab Lab | 20:24 |
| kanzure_ | I don't actually have any TechShop connections. I have a few FabLab connections, but more is always nice. | 20:24 |
| kanzure_ | So there's still a few issues to hash out. Simulation is a pain in the neck because it's confusing me a lot. I simply don't know how to make things "simulatable" since usually the interconnection of two components requires doubly domain specific knowledge. Rarely do the parts have a common public interface (physically/chemically/mechanically ...). | 20:30 |
| UtopiahGHML | do you have an example in mind? | 20:31 |
| UtopiahGHML | do you expect OpenCog do derivate such models? | 20:35 |
| kanzure_ | No, I don't expect that at all. | 20:38 |
| kanzure_ | An example of why simulation is hard. Say your design file shows that an egg beater and a gear are to be combined. I have told you absolutely nothing about how this is to physically occur .. there's a difference in the possible ways you could combine them. And each has drastic implications for the function of the device. | 20:39 |
| UtopiahGHML | if it's just a matter of combinations it's only a matter of available computation resources | 20:42 |
| UtopiahGHML | Im not saying it's evident but it's doable | 20:43 |
| UtopiahGHML | mutation/selection/mutation/selection... | 20:43 |
| kanzure_ | It's not combinations | 20:52 |
| kanzure_ | That's part solvable, it's what I do | 20:52 |
| kanzure_ | yep, it's all just evolution and such | 20:53 |
| UtopiahGHML | well I do "believe" in evolutionary algo a lot ;) | 20:53 |
| kanzure_ | I suppose I need to go find somebody who has taken an engineering mechanics class and figure out what sort of abstract calculations are possible, because it's just going to be painful to write an algorithmic way of checking that things stick together correctly | 20:53 |
| UtopiahGHML | got friends who are good in math and who did mech engineering | 20:54 |
| UtopiahGHML | if you problem is correctly formulated I can ask them | 20:54 |
| UtopiahGHML | (they do optimization on simulation for french companies, not always "nice" objects) | 20:54 |
| kanzure_ | Given two parts that are theoretically able to be interfaced, i.e. the output of the first is of the correct type for the input of the second, how do you make sure you generate a goemetry, or any other substrate, accurately and precisely, so that you may run simulations of the functionality? For instance, in the case of a vehicle, the simulations would be CFD. | 20:55 |
| kanzure_ | What's a "non-nice" object? | 20:55 |
| kanzure_ | Also, that other message might have cut off. | 20:55 |
| UtopiahGHML | weapons | 20:56 |
| UtopiahGHML | doesn't change their skills though but... | 20:56 |
| UtopiahGHML | they use simulation for shock resistance | 20:56 |
| kanzure_ | with weapons I can't imagine them needing to do different types of simulations - always the same sort of calculations about the barrels and the load efficiencies, shock, etc. | 20:56 |
| kanzure_ | yeah | 20:56 |
| UtopiahGHML | yep but they optimize pieces fit for shock resistance | 20:57 |
| UtopiahGHML | they design pieces with such problematics | 20:57 |
| kanzure_ | Say you have the connection between a screw and two metal plates. This has very defined characteristics that necessites the directionality of the components; this would be important when generating 3D representations of the model. But a non-3D example would be the kinetics of two reactants in a chemical equation. If you don't know how the probabilities of interaction, then you're making some rather big assumptions that you shouldn't be | 21:00 |
| kanzure_ | I'm just repeating mysefl. | 21:00 |
| kanzure_ | Hoping that there's some generalization I can come up with. | 21:00 |
| UtopiahGHML | well you need a more general model that connects the two, a universal model (universal at least for the ones used) | 21:01 |
| UtopiahGHML | maybe you could have some model ontology/hierarchical repository | 21:01 |
| kanzure_ | the ontology kinda already exists, go check out the repository website ;-) | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | http://repository.designengineeringlab.org/ | 21:03 |
| UtopiahGHML | ok ok, I won't ask you anything for at least 1 week | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | (btw, that's not our repository - but it sort of is - since it's a joint project with my lab. So.) | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | hah | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | Why? | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | but your idea of using the ontology to come up with the interconnection details might be useful. I'm not entirely sure how to make it happen. | 21:03 |
| UtopiahGHML | I wont ask stupid questions then :) | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | Stupid questions are good. | 21:03 |
| kanzure_ | I'll tell you when you get stupid. | 21:04 |
| UtopiahGHML | :P | 21:04 |
| UtopiahGHML | no but I need to sleep over it a bit more then Ill come up with stupid question and smart suggestions | 21:04 |
| kanzure_ | :) | 21:04 |
| UtopiahGHML | and if I don't... OpenCog will | 21:05 |
| kanzure_ | Tell me what you think OpenCog would have to do with this | 21:05 |
| kanzure_ | From what I can remember, the docs didn't explain much, but this was back in February that I looked | 21:05 |
| UtopiahGHML | well so far... not a lot it's still Work In Progress | 21:06 |
| kanzure_ | but *what* is WIP? | 21:06 |
| kanzure_ | Magical ai beans? | 21:06 |
| UtopiahGHML | but if you need to manipulate ontology, do ANN optimization, inferences based on models... could help there | 21:06 |
| kanzure_ | I've been out of the loop on Ben's work for a while now. | 21:06 |
| UtopiahGHML | even if it "only" provide a coherent framework for the different AI tools | 21:07 |
| kanzure_ | is that what it's doing? | 21:07 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Computational_neuroscience | 21:07 |
| UtopiahGHML | that's already a big gain even if the "AGI vision" doesn't get realized soon. | 21:07 |
| kanzure_ | If you can come up with a framework for all of those tools listed on that page, then I'll throw it into my 'mind-on-a-disc' Linux CD. | 21:07 |
| UtopiahGHML | :) | 21:07 |
| UtopiahGHML | I guess you know how to use a wiki | 21:07 |
| kanzure_ | uh, yes :) | 21:08 |
| UtopiahGHML | http://seedea.free.fr/wiki/index.php?n=Seedea.AImatrix | 21:08 |
| UtopiahGHML | started that few days ago, obviously not populated at all, didn't take time for it yet | 21:09 |
| UtopiahGHML | but you get the idea | 21:09 |
| kanzure_ | hm - http://mathforum.org/~ken/bayes/bayes.html - automated doc classification w/ perl :) | 21:09 |
| kanzure_ | if I was back home I'd show you my ai bookmarks. | 21:10 |
| UtopiahGHML | this would evolve to an RSS repository on key AI labs, etc.. etc... etc.... | 21:10 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/bookmarks/ | 21:11 |
| kanzure_ | Check the OPML file. | 21:11 |
| kanzure_ | I keep track of a good number of AI RSS feeds. | 21:11 |
| UtopiahGHML | but so far, IMHO, OpenCog seems to be the AI unifying framework with the best potential | 21:11 |
| kanzure_ | well, by "keep track" i mean glance over, because it's too painful to actually read all of the BS | 21:11 |
| UtopiahGHML | (and that's why Im on the channel) | 21:11 |
| kanzure_ | :) | 21:11 |
| kanzure_ | That's a good reason to be there. | 21:12 |
| UtopiahGHML | Cognitive scaffolding = | 21:12 |
| UtopiahGHML | * Cognitive proxy (now instantiated as a browser+plugins+wiki+pugins+physical interface package) | 21:12 |
| UtopiahGHML | o Intellectual augmentation | 21:12 |
| UtopiahGHML | + Artificial intelligence | 21:12 |
| UtopiahGHML | # Algorithms | 21:12 |
| UtopiahGHML | * Heuristics, Mimetics (cognitive science, game theory, ...) | 21:12 |
| UtopiahGHML | o Statistics | 21:12 |
| UtopiahGHML | + Mathematics | 21:12 |
| UtopiahGHML | maybe it's close to your mindCD except being online | 21:12 |
| kanzure_ | re: brain augmentation | 21:14 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/docs/neuro/ brain implants | 21:14 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/2008-08-15.html more recent work on that | 21:14 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/open-rtms/ | 21:14 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/recursion.html | 21:14 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/humancortex.html | 21:14 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/buildingbrains.html | 21:14 |
| UtopiahGHML | I dont read that fast without my model being actually instanciated fully (yet) ;) | 21:15 |
| UtopiahGHML | I guess you've seen « corticogenèse in vitro » (Nature 17th of | 21:16 |
| kanzure_ | The trick to reading faster is to assume you've read it. | 21:16 |
| UtopiahGHML | August) already | 21:16 |
| kanzure_ | I might have. What was it about? | 21:16 |
| kanzure_ | Was this blood v. activity? | 21:16 |
| UtopiahGHML | "implanted neurons are able to connect to the host brain to build specific neural circuits in the cortex" | 21:16 |
| kanzure_ | uhh | 21:16 |
| kanzure_ | link? :) | 21:16 |
| UtopiahGHML | http://www.ulb.ac.be/homepage.html http://www.lemonde.fr/sciences-et-environnement/article/2008/08/18/du-cortex-cerebral-fabrique-in-vitro-a-partir-de-cellules-souches_1084950_3244.html | 21:16 |
| UtopiahGHML | (don't have the DOI of Nature's article) | 21:17 |
| kanzure_ | for the record, | 21:17 |
| kanzure_ | I have every single Nature paper ever | 21:17 |
| kanzure_ | except things from, uh, August, I think. | 21:17 |
| UtopiahGHML | well, you did assume you've read it anyway I guess :P | 21:17 |
| UtopiahGHML | (hmmm the ULB link changed, the lab didn't keep an up to date page...) | 21:18 |
| kanzure_ | Is there one in English? | 21:18 |
| UtopiahGHML | the one in Nature | 21:19 |
| kanzure_ | erm | 21:19 |
| UtopiahGHML | author Nicolas Gaspard | 21:20 |
| kanzure_ | An intrinsic mechanism of corticogenesis from embryonic stem cells | 21:20 |
| UtopiahGHML | maybe with http://dev.ulb.ac.be/pvdhlab/ | 21:20 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v455/n7211/full/nature07287.html | 21:20 |
| UtopiahGHML | yep that one | 21:20 |
| UtopiahGHML | ehhh they updated it?! | 21:21 |
| UtopiahGHML | ok corrections | 21:21 |
| kanzure_ | http://search.cpan.org/~jhi/Graph-0.84/lib/Graph.pod#Comparing | 21:21 |
| kanzure_ | Hm. Looks like all of my work is done for me. | 21:21 |
| kanzure_ | woot, plus isomorphisms. | 21:22 |
| UtopiahGHML | isn't it the goal of the Internet? | 21:22 |
| kanzure_ | To do *my* work specifically? | 21:22 |
| kanzure_ | Yes, yes it is. | 21:22 |
| kanzure_ | hm, the isomorphic functions don't return the areas of the graph that are isomorphic | 21:24 |
| UtopiahGHML | (but yes brain augmentation is part of my tree but not in the cognitive scaffolding, not sure it's required) | 21:24 |
| kanzure_ | UtopiahGHML: be back in a second; in the mean time, amuse yourself: http://heybryan.org/quotes.html | 21:25 |
| kanzure_ | http://qosip.tmit.bme.hu/~retvari/Lemon-Graph.html a combinatorial optimization and graph lib | 21:27 |
| UtopiahGHML | do you have an API/Lib repository that you can query when needed? | 21:31 |
| kanzure_ | http://search.cpan.org/~azs/Graph-ModularDecomposition-0.13/ModularDecomposition.pm is this what I need? | 21:31 |
| kanzure_ | what do you mean, UtopiahGHML? | 21:31 |
| kanzure_ | Yes, I do have a server, if that's what you want to know | 21:31 |
| UtopiahGHML | nop | 21:32 |
| UtopiahGHML | http://www.catonmat.net/blog/searching-and-mining-open-source-code-from-the-web/ configured for your needs is what I meant | 21:32 |
| kanzure_ | grr, I might need a regexp for graph searching | 21:33 |
| kanzure_ | hm? | 21:33 |
| kanzure_ | just looks like a demonstration of krugle and friends | 21:34 |
| UtopiahGHML | have a look at the references in the presentation maybe | 21:34 |
| UtopiahGHML | they provide tools for Eclipse&Co to go further than that. | 21:35 |
| kanzure_ | yay, this is what I need: http://search.cpan.org/~jhi/Graph-0.84/lib/Graph/UnionFind.pm | 21:37 |
| UtopiahGHML | what are you actually trying to code | 21:38 |
| kanzure_ | At the moment I'm just writing some stuff to show the union and intersection of different graphs | 21:41 |
| kanzure_ | it's just a small exercise really, somewhat to pass time. | 21:41 |
| UtopiahGHML | ok | 21:45 |
| UtopiahGHML | well Ill pass time sleeping | 21:45 |
| UtopiahGHML | bye | 21:46 |
| kanzure_ | bye | 21:46 |
| kanzure_ | hm, I need a way to do WYSIWYG-HTML with directed graphs. I know there's HTML::TreeLayout or something, but that's more for parsing than building pages. I guess there should be something somewhere .. CGI and all that. | 22:02 |
| kanzure_ | 302606 <--- HTML templating as tree rewriting | 22:10 |
| kanzure_ | http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=302606 | 22:11 |
| kanzure_ | http://kobesearch.cpan.org/htdocs/HTML/html_base.pod.html ah, it was for HTML 2.0 | 22:12 |
| kanzure_ | and for HTML 4.0 --> http://search.cpan.org/~duncand/HTML-EasyTags-1.071/lib/HTML/EasyTags.pm | 22:19 |
| kanzure_ | How (un)fortunate that HTML doesn't have cyclic subgraphs. Oh well. ;-) | 22:20 |
| fenn | not unfortunate, if it did then the page would be infinitely long | 22:32 |
| kanzure_ | I mena those old OOP diamondoid loopers that you're supposed to avoid in your UMLing | 22:36 |
| fenn | ya there's a reason you're supposed to avoid them | 22:39 |
| kanzure_ | turtle eating his own tail? | 22:39 |
| fenn | something like that | 22:40 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/ | 22:46 |
| kanzure_ | it just finished. | 22:46 |
| fenn | ah i thought it was going to be the matweb repo :) | 22:47 |
| kanzure_ | alas :( | 22:47 |
| kanzure_ | let me check on that while I'm thinking about it | 22:47 |
| fenn | those files are bigger than one would expect | 22:47 |
| kanzure_ | fscking images are stored in them | 22:48 |
| kanzure_ | this doesn't explain the roller coaster's size though | 22:48 |
| kanzure_ | 100+ MB, wtf? | 22:48 |
| fenn | well the images are in ascii so there's some overhead | 22:49 |
| kanzure_ | 32808 | 22:49 |
| fenn | for i in ./* ; do echo $i | grep -v > $i ; done | 22:50 |
| * kanzure_ has to ls for the largest file number by the typical bounded trial and error | 22:50 | |
| fenn | er, s/grep -v/grep -v CDATA/ | 22:50 |
| kanzure_ | I think there's some theorem in number theory or something, | 22:50 |
| kanzure_ | that shows that I only have to do it at most 10 times for any number that I'm bounding | 22:50 |
| fenn | or soething like that :P | 22:50 |
| kanzure_ | erm, proportional to the number of digits or something | 22:50 |
| kanzure_ | this time it took me 14 guesses | 22:51 |
| kanzure_ | though I started by assuming it was past 30000 | 22:51 |
| fenn | standard deviation? | 22:51 |
| kanzure_ | erm. maybe. | 22:52 |
| fenn | i dunno what you're talking about really | 22:52 |
| kanzure_ | I'm still not familiar with standard deviations | 22:52 |
| kanzure_ | uhm | 22:52 |
| kanzure_ | so I have them all in files | 22:52 |
| kanzure_ | the latest downloaded file is where it's at | 22:52 |
| fenn | with names like air_hawg.repo | 22:52 |
| kanzure_ | matweb, matweb | 22:52 |
| kanzure_ | you mentioned matweb, so I'm checking matweb's download | 22:52 |
| fenn | oh | 22:52 |
| * fenn has high mental inertia | 22:53 | |
| fenn | especially first thing in the morning | 22:53 |
| kanzure_ | heh | 22:53 |
| fenn | how big is design repo if you gzip it? | 22:54 |
| kanzure_ | odd, I know how to use zip but not gzip for compression | 22:56 |
| kanzure_ | oh | 22:57 |
| kanzure_ | need to tar it, don't I? | 22:57 |
| fenn | tar -zcvf repo.tgz repo/ | 22:57 |
| kanzure_ | will take a few moments. | 22:58 |
| kanzure_ | crap I'm stupid. repo/ is for a reason .. dir preservation. | 22:58 |
| fenn | did you just tarbomb yourself? | 22:59 |
| kanzure_ | no, I was still building the tar | 22:59 |
| kanzure_ | also, is it still a tarbomb if all of the filenames have a standard extension? | 22:59 |
| kanzure_ | *shrug* | 22:59 |
| fenn | depends if you have other filenames with that extension in your dir already :) | 23:00 |
| fenn | yet another case for versioning file systems | 23:00 |
| kanzure_ | can't count the number of times I've had to go digging through very long lists of files for "hey, I *think* that's new .." | 23:00 |
| fenn | ls -lart | 23:01 |
| kanzure_ | the number is high, though | 23:01 |
| kanzure_ | ls -lart helps? | 23:01 |
| fenn | shows newest files last | 23:01 |
| fenn | unless your tar preserved dates :( | 23:01 |
| kanzure_ | gzip preserves dates, fwiw | 23:01 |
| fenn | depends what switches you give it | 23:01 |
| kanzure_ | wtfpancakes why is there repo.tgz in my repo.tgz file | 23:02 |
| kanzure_ | grr | 23:02 |
| fenn | it's a recursive backup :) | 23:02 |
| fenn | that way when you delete the original archive you have an extra one left over | 23:02 |
| kanzure_ | huh? | 23:03 |
| fenn | (yes i'm being silly) | 23:03 |
| kanzure_ | No, that's because of my mistake | 23:03 |
| kanzure_ | yeah | 23:03 |
| kanzure_ | okay, just checking. | 23:03 |
| kanzure_ | 373 MB to 500 MB. | 23:04 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ | 23:04 |
| fenn | i thought it was 100MB before compression? | 23:04 |
| fenn | guess not | 23:05 |
| kanzure_ | that was a single file in there | 23:05 |
| kanzure_ | next on my list should be automated web design, since that's something I can test with | 23:07 |
| kanzure_ | or, figuring out which subcomponents are commonalities between those parts in the repo | 23:07 |
| kanzure_ | not that it gives you any real extra info. | 23:08 |
| kanzure_ | blah. anyway, I'm off to fetch a burger and doodle death stars | 23:08 |
| fenn | enjoi | 23:08 |
| fenn | just discovered this http://beagleboard.org/ | 23:28 |
| fenn | looks eminently wearable | 23:28 |
| fenn | omfg they hired a guy in a dog suit | 23:38 |
| kanzure | that dog suit under 'Latest News' is from Invader Zim. | 23:41 |
| fenn | dirty dirty dog: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jadon/2740273801/ | 23:41 |
| kanzure | meh, it happens | 23:42 |
| fenn | there are an unusually large number of women in these photos | 23:42 |
| fenn | i wonder if it's observer bias or just that companies have women to staff their booths | 23:43 |
| kanzure | I still think this is comedic genius: http://neuroblastoma.omgwallhack.org/media/img/dump/instructions.jpg | 23:52 |
| kanzure | http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/so-i-married-a-kernel-programmer "Everybody loves Eric Raymond" | 23:59 |
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