| --- Day changed Thu Oct 23 2008 | ||
| kanzure | #cosmeng | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
| bkero | http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SCI_SCOTCH_TAPE_SURPRISE?SITE=NVLAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT | 00:12 |
| drazak | so, I'm gonna make a connexin crystal, using dna to replicate the membrane conditions | 00:15 |
| kanzure | ? | 00:17 |
| kanzure | http://lpgli.com/ | 00:17 |
| kanzure | electrolytic filtering.. hrm. | 00:22 |
| kanzure | Anybody want to work on a power sat project with Keith Henson, legendary L5 founder? | 00:35 |
| hkhenson | wassail | 00:37 |
| kanzure | Hey hkhenson. :-) | 00:37 |
| kanzure | Keith, maybe you want to say a line or two about your latest projects? You've been wrapping them in a veil of secrecy on the extropy-chat mailing list. | 00:39 |
| hkhenson | I don't have permission to speak of the progress/idea openly, but can go into it here | 00:39 |
| hkhenson | been working on a way to build power sats eventually at a cost so low that the power can be sold for a penny a kWh | 00:40 |
| hkhenson | at that price you can use the power to make synthetic gasoline that could sell for a dollar a gallon | 00:41 |
| kanzure | You've mentioned working more on the business plan to make it profitable .. rather than the tech .. last I checked it required something like mile-diameter rectifiers on the planet surface. | 00:41 |
| kanzure | Is that mile-wide rectifier still ok? | 00:41 |
| hkhenson | only problem was how to fund something that could go into the hole as much as 350 billion bucks | 00:41 |
| hkhenson | rectenna, and yeah, figure 1-2 hundred bucks per kW | 00:42 |
| hkhenson | Charles Miller has had the solution to funding them since the ISDC back in May | 00:42 |
| hkhenson | it's the same thing the german gov did to get all the PV cells installed--in spite of the fact german is a piss poor place to collect solar energy | 00:43 |
| hkhenson | the laws require the utilitis to buy power from them at some outreageous rate | 00:43 |
| kanzure | How was ISDC2008 anyway? I was really hoping to go. It conflicted with high school graduation ceremonies though. | 00:44 |
| hkhenson | so the idea is to pass legislation that would do the same for power sat energy | 00:44 |
| kanzure | Right. | 00:44 |
| hkhenson | ISDC was ok, mostly primate self congratulating blather of course | 00:45 |
| hkhenson | but then they are all like that | 00:45 |
| kanzure | Do you know Charles F. Radley? | 00:45 |
| hkhenson | anyway, I think a campaign focused on dollar a gallon gasoline would get the public support for such legislation to be passed | 00:46 |
| hkhenson | yes | 00:46 |
| kanzure | Guess I don't have to introduce you two. | 00:46 |
| hkhenson | http://htyp.org/dollar_a_gallon_gasoline | 00:50 |
| hkhenson | also figured out a mixed rocket and laser way to get a million ton per year pipeline to GEO | 00:50 |
| kanzure | I've seen designs for laser-based rocket launches .. i.e. transfer of energy to ignite onboard explosives. Is that what you mean? | 00:51 |
| hkhenson | no, ablasion lasers. 17km/sec exhaust velocity | 00:52 |
| hkhenson | 4 GW laser | 00:52 |
| kanzure | On board laser ablation? Something about converting materials into a plasma. Anyway. | 00:53 |
| hkhenson | no laser is on the ground | 00:54 |
| kanzure | Hrm. | 00:54 |
| hkhenson | mirrors to redirect the beam | 00:55 |
| hkhenson | pop the payload up with a modest rocket to 260 miles | 00:55 |
| hkhenson | that gives you about 15 minutes before it falls out of the sky to put it in GTO. | 00:55 |
| kanzure | GTO? Not GEO? | 00:56 |
| kanzure | fenn: Awake? | 00:56 |
| hkhenson | GEO transfer orbit | 00:56 |
| hkhenson | when it gets out to GEO you have to hit it again to circularize the orbit | 00:57 |
| kanzure | Ah. | 00:58 |
| kanzure | Hey ppk. | 01:00 |
| ppk | hey | 01:00 |
| ppk | so I'm trying out this program you guys sent out to diybio | 01:00 |
| ppk | what does it do? | 01:00 |
| kanzure | it does nothing | 01:01 |
| kanzure | I don't know why xp_prg sent it | 01:01 |
| kanzure | It doesn't even meet specs. | 01:01 |
| xp_prg | ppk hey! | 01:01 |
| xp_prg | kanzure release early, release often | 01:01 |
| ppk | lol | 01:01 |
| ppk | well, nice interface | 01:01 |
| xp_prg | ppk it is a very, very, very early approach to biobench | 01:02 |
| xp_prg | thanks ppk that is the kind of feedback I wanted! | 01:02 |
| xp_prg | do you get where i am going with that? | 01:02 |
| kanzure | You don't release the wrong thing though. | 01:02 |
| kanzure | ppk: Which one are you referring to? | 01:02 |
| ppk | biobench.swf | 01:03 |
| ppk | haven't checked your link out yet | 01:03 |
| xp_prg | ppk tell me more of what you would like to see, I am very open to suggestions etc... | 01:03 |
| kanzure | Please do :-) | 01:03 |
| ppk | I came here to find out what the stuff was | 01:03 |
| kanzure | the? | 01:03 |
| kanzure | So, it's supposed to be an interface to interface1.php, interface2.php, interface3.php | 01:04 |
| kanzure | But those guys haven't sent the files, they probably won't | 01:04 |
| kanzure | so we have to reverse engineer it | 01:04 |
| ppk | index2.html? | 01:04 |
| kanzure | No, | 01:04 |
| xp_prg | ppk have you heard of spice for electrical engineering? | 01:04 |
| ppk | no | 01:05 |
| kanzure | ppk: http://heybryan.org/graph/bloodgate.com/graph-easy/ | 01:05 |
| ppk | I'm guessing this is a biological analogue | 01:05 |
| kanzure | index2.html doesn't work. Graph-easy does though. | 01:05 |
| xp_prg | ppk did you get the idea of my app though? | 01:05 |
| ppk | yes it does | 01:06 |
| xp_prg | ppk? | 01:06 |
| ppk | No I didn't, from what I saw | 01:06 |
| xp_prg | ppk the idea is you instantiate a cell then start adding biobricks to it | 01:06 |
| xp_prg | then you can compile to see if you added wrong ones etc... | 01:06 |
| xp_prg | then you can run it to see what the cell will do with those biobricks inside of it :> | 01:07 |
| ppk | very very cool | 01:07 |
| xp_prg | ppk does that make sense? | 01:07 |
| ppk | yeah | 01:07 |
| xp_prg | now does it make more sense what you were seeing? | 01:07 |
| ppk | I'm guessing you're going off known data, not simulation, right? | 01:07 |
| ppk | yeah | 01:08 |
| xp_prg | well I am trying to come up with a way to do that well, have any suggestions? | 01:08 |
| ppk | I hadn't heard of iGEM teams working with yeast before | 01:08 |
| xp_prg | ppk what is your field? | 01:08 |
| ppk | I'm a microbiology student | 01:08 |
| xp_prg | oh ok cool | 01:08 |
| kanzure | we already have a way to do it | 01:08 |
| kanzure | I keep telling you | 01:09 |
| kanzure | Why aren't you listening? | 01:09 |
| xp_prg | oh with synbioss? | 01:09 |
| kanzure | Yes. | 01:09 |
| xp_prg | right sorry forgot :> | 01:09 |
| kanzure | ppk: The output is SBML. | 01:09 |
| kanzure | ppk: One of the plans is to wire this up to inventory systems -- for plasmids and such -- from various labs. | 01:10 |
| ppk | graph-easy is cool | 01:10 |
| kanzure | and also to http://e-oligos.com/ http://mrgene.com/ -- So you can imagine this being an automated synthetic biology system. | 01:10 |
| xp_prg | kanzure your going to hate me I just don't understand what your doing with graph easy there | 01:11 |
| kanzure | Then press a button with SKDB .. get some instructions for making the equipment :-) or connecting with a local Fab Lab .. :-) | 01:11 |
| kanzure | xp_prg Circuit construction. | 01:12 |
| xp_prg | ok | 01:12 |
| ppk | having a resource like this online would be really awesome | 01:12 |
| kanzure | Yep. | 01:12 |
| ppk | how do you guys like collaborating online? | 01:14 |
| ppk | it's still sort of a new phenomenon | 01:14 |
| xp_prg | ppk I love it! | 01:14 |
| kanzure | No, it's been around for decades. | 01:14 |
| xp_prg | ppk do you want to be apart of our project? | 01:14 |
| ppk | I don't know what I'd be able to contribute, but I'm willing | 01:15 |
| kanzure | ppk: Have you seen the repository? | 01:15 |
| xp_prg | ppk you could contribute testing and documentation at the least :> | 01:15 |
| kanzure | No, he's microbio. | 01:15 |
| kanzure | Let him look at http://heybryan.org/gitweb.cgi | 01:15 |
| ppk | 414 | 01:16 |
| ppk | 404* that is | 01:16 |
| kanzure | really | 01:16 |
| kanzure | Crap. | 01:16 |
| kanzure | Yeah, server was changed recently | 01:16 |
| kanzure | There's an older version at http://biohack.sf.net/ | 01:16 |
| ppk | yeah, same version as the one I have | 01:16 |
| kanzure | Ah, right, so, yeah. /That/ needs serious help until SKDB gets rolling. | 01:17 |
| ppk | quality control? | 01:17 |
| kanzure | yeah :( | 01:17 |
| kanzure | organization, more like it | 01:17 |
| ppk | I have looked through it, there's a lot of good stuff in there, I can pare it down to the best stuff | 01:18 |
| ppk | and/or organize | 01:18 |
| kanzure | organizing even in the form of text files talking about where stuff is (or isn't) | 01:18 |
| ppk | ie a table of contents? | 01:18 |
| kanzure | That's too much to ask for. | 01:19 |
| ppk | what about an HTML file nomenclature | 01:19 |
| ppk | that would be parsable and doable one at a time | 01:20 |
| ppk | there'd need to be a standard set first though | 01:20 |
| kanzure | Nomenclature for what? | 01:20 |
| ppk | the docs themselves | 01:20 |
| kanzure | I don't know what you're saying. | 01:21 |
| ppk | you could have a subject, and a quality rating, etc | 01:21 |
| ppk | ie, Transduc_9_blahblah | 01:21 |
| kanzure | Part of SKDB is to help automatically generate instructions for building systems made up of individual components .. so it's more specific than just tagging of documents I guess, but if you want to do that I suppose it would be an interesting start. | 01:22 |
| ppk | meh, just throwing ideas out there, I'm not set on anything | 01:22 |
| kanzure | so, the problem that I see | 01:22 |
| kanzure | is that if you start a tagging system or nomenclature, you start to get lots of natural language | 01:23 |
| kanzure | and not much parseable. cleanup and so on works methinks. but a way for new data entry or "where to put stuff" will become quickly outdated because of the other work that's going on :) | 01:23 |
| kanzure | Hrm. I've talked you into oblivion. | 01:26 |
| ppk | how much have you added to the repository since jan 28th? | 01:26 |
| kanzure | it's grown from 40 MB to 400 MB. | 01:26 |
| kanzure | Hold on. | 01:26 |
| kanzure | This is a relatively recent representation of it: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/biotech/ | 01:26 |
| xp_prg | ppk dude can you give me any ideas on my interface? | 01:26 |
| kanzure | xp_prg Why are you working on the interface? | 01:27 |
| xp_prg | cuz I want to and that is what I was told to do | 01:27 |
| kanzure | Yeah, but then an interface was made, so now we have to get the other part working | 01:27 |
| xp_prg | well I am working on a better interface I think :( | 01:28 |
| kanzure | But it interfaces to nothing. | 01:28 |
| ppk | throw a logo up there, maybe make the buttons a bit bigger? | 01:28 |
| xp_prg | well it will interface to something, just getting it out there | 01:28 |
| ppk | I'm running at 1680x1050 though | 01:28 |
| ppk | higher than a standard res | 01:29 |
| xp_prg | oh wow kanzure do we have a logo? | 01:29 |
| kanzure | Do you see the icon on http://heybryan.org/ ? The icon in the address bar (the ICO file). That might be a logo. | 01:29 |
| kanzure | Probably need something better. | 01:30 |
| ppk | can't distinguish much detail from the .ico | 01:30 |
| xp_prg | ppk you good at making art stuff man? | 01:30 |
| ppk | not particularly | 01:30 |
| kanzure | ppk: yeah, so I think something new is needed | 01:30 |
| kanzure | Hi gene_ | 01:31 |
| gene_ | hello | 01:31 |
| gene_ | I might have to leave fairly soon | 01:31 |
| ppk | graph-easy is going to be used to make the 'biological circuits'? | 01:32 |
| kanzure | ppk: Yes. | 01:32 |
| kanzure | I'll add a list-mechanism or maybe a command line interface for specifying biobricks. Maybe a wiki-window to see partsregistry.org as well. | 01:33 |
| ppk | the interface might feel more 'stable' compositionally if you extended the gray bar across the top of the whole page | 01:34 |
| ppk | as in the graph-easy program | 01:34 |
| xp_prg | hi gene_ did you see my biobench thing? | 01:34 |
| gene_ | no | 01:34 |
| gene_ | link? | 01:35 |
| ppk | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/biobench/001/biobench.swf | 01:35 |
| xp_prg | its biobench.html | 01:35 |
| xp_prg | not .swf | 01:35 |
| ppk | ah | 01:36 |
| kanzure | ppk: What browser? | 01:36 |
| ppk | chrome+firefox | 01:36 |
| gene_ | so what do I do with biobench to make me an organism | 01:36 |
| xp_prg | gene_ well File->new->cell->e-coli | 01:38 |
| xp_prg | then right click on the picture and add biobrick :> | 01:38 |
| gene_ | oh | 01:38 |
| kanzure | ppk: Ok. I'll check that out Real Soon. | 01:38 |
| kanzure | ppk: Personally I'm not too worried about the visual stuff. I'll let somebody deal with that. I'm just making all of these interfaces work. | 01:39 |
| ppk | I feel you | 01:39 |
| ppk | what's 'Real Soon'? Euphemism for never? lawl | 01:41 |
| kanzure | I haven't decided yet. | 01:41 |
| xp_prg | gene_ what do you think? | 01:44 |
| gene_ | I think that it'd work just fine with out visuals | 01:45 |
| kanzure | :) | 01:46 |
| gene_ | heck have it all .txt file based | 01:47 |
| ppk | scientists despise aesthetics | 01:48 |
| kanzure | ppk: No. CLI is just more useful. | 01:48 |
| kanzure | gene_: I don't think .txt is sufficient. | 01:48 |
| gene_ | aesthetics are irrelevant | 01:48 |
| kanzure | gene_: Look up SBML. | 01:48 |
| gene_ | .whatever file | 01:48 |
| gene_ | I mean biobricks are fun and all, but the real fun is in proteins that are found in nature or synthetic proteins | 01:49 |
| gene_ | also you might want to integrate things like how the biobricks might interfere with cellular function | 01:50 |
| kanzure | yes, SBML includes this | 01:50 |
| kanzure | also, biobricks include some proteins | 01:50 |
| kanzure | Actually, it's mostly all proteins. | 01:50 |
| gene_ | how much ATP they eat, whether or not they mess around with proton concentration | 01:50 |
| kanzure | http://partsregistry.org/cgi/partsdb/pgroup.cgi?pgroup=Generator | 01:50 |
| kanzure | gene_: Yes, that's all included, as long as you're wired up to a usable database. Like http://reactome.org/ (ok, bad example, but it's fun.) | 01:51 |
| kanzure | KEGG might be a better example. | 01:51 |
| gene_ | I mean why not integrate a function for build me this protein when this happens | 01:51 |
| gene_ | and I paste in the amino acid sequence for the protein and it builds protein when this happens | 01:52 |
| gene_ | there also needs to be some better intercellular communication functions | 01:53 |
| gene_ | there is also the issue of compiling the code | 01:54 |
| kanzure | That's where the automated design lab and "design compiler" comes into play. | 01:54 |
| gene_ | compile as in make the DNA sequence | 01:55 |
| gene_ | at home | 01:55 |
| gene_ | not have someone else do it | 01:55 |
| kanzure | Right. | 01:55 |
| gene_ | well I have to go now | 01:55 |
| ppk | so, what's the next step for biobench? | 01:59 |
| kanzure | reverse engineer interface1.php | 01:59 |
| kanzure | http://neptune.cems.umn.edu/designer/interface1.php | 01:59 |
| kanzure | and 2 and 3 | 02:00 |
| kanzure | This would make for an actual functional backend. | 02:04 |
| UtopiahGHML | anybody seen a study on a possible correlation between Internet QoS and the price of electricity? | 02:04 |
| kanzure | QoS? | 02:05 |
| kanzure | quality of service? | 02:05 |
| UtopiahGHML | yep like ping, uptime, etc | 02:05 |
| bkero | It's not really a function of electricity | 02:06 |
| bkero | The electricity cost is negligable. | 02:06 |
| UtopiahGHML | well, Im seing several "small user" selling their powerhungry server to either use remote RPS/VPS/Cloud or have lower consumption servers | 02:07 |
| UtopiahGHML | so maybe it's just a local thing, limited to people I know or small players | 02:07 |
| UtopiahGHML | but Id enjoy reading a study on this. | 02:07 |
| kanzure | Hey PeerInfinity. | 02:11 |
| PeerInfinity | hi kanzure :) | 02:11 |
| kanzure | You've missed quite a bit. | 02:11 |
| kanzure | Would you like the logs? | 02:11 |
| PeerInfinity | yes please :) | 02:11 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/2008-10-22_#hplusroadmap.html | 02:12 |
| PeerInfinity | thanks :) | 02:12 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 02:12 |
| kanzure | Hold on. | 02:12 |
| PeerInfinity | heh, I was expecting you to just paste the log into a private chat window | 02:12 |
| kanzure | The "#" doesn't work. | 02:12 |
| kanzure | PeerInfinity: It's far too long. | 02:12 |
| PeerInfinity | ok | 02:12 |
| kanzure | PeerInfinity: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/2008-10-22_%23hplusroadmap.html | 02:13 |
| kanzure | There. That'll work. | 02:13 |
| PeerInfinity | yes, it worked, thanks :) | 02:13 |
| PeerInfinity | reading... | 02:14 |
| kanzure | PeerInfinity: It's best that you ignore everything with percent_. | 02:14 |
| PeerInfinity | heh, ok :) | 02:15 |
| PeerInfinity | for over a year now, I've been hanging out in Second Life, talking to any transhumanists I could find. One question I asked all of them is if they knew of an IRC channel where transhumanists regularly hang out. Noone knew of any... | 02:17 |
| UtopiahGHML | How Resilient Is the Modern Economy to Energy Price Shocks? http://www.frbatlanta.org/invoke.cfm?objectid=D6B9F3FB-5056-9F12-12B7317CE85BBCD0&method=display_body | 02:17 |
| PeerInfinity | there used to be the #sl4 channel, but that's mostly dead now... | 02:17 |
| kanzure | PeerInfinity: Most of us here are transhuman. | 02:19 |
| PeerInfinity | silly me, if I would have just googled "transhumanist IRC", I could have found the #transhumanism channel... | 02:20 |
| kanzure | #transhumanism doesn't have much | 02:20 |
| PeerInfinity | oh | 02:20 |
| ppk | never heard of it | 02:20 |
| kanzure | This is basically it :-) | 02:20 |
| UtopiahGHML | (see, InternetQoS/energy prices, told you) | 02:28 |
| PeerInfinity | I found this channel when I joined the #cosmeng channel, which just opened today, and kanzure mentioned this channel... | 02:28 |
| kanzure | Hi ybit, bkero, procto, chizu. | 02:28 |
| PeerInfinity | hi new people :) | 02:28 |
| PeerInfinity | who mysteriously all joined at the same instant, and have the same names as the people who just left a few seconds ago... | 02:28 |
| kanzure | That's what a netsplit is. | 02:28 |
| PeerInfinity | oh | 02:28 |
| PeerInfinity | hehe, of course, Wikipedia pas a page about that... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netsplit | 02:28 |
| PeerInfinity | so, how long has this channel been around? can you give some highlights of the things I missed? | 02:28 |
| PeerInfinity | I just googled UtopiahGHML, and found chat logs for this channel... | 02:30 |
| kanzure | I don't see them. | 02:30 |
| kanzure | http://www.imageandnarrative.be/narratology/davidherman.htm <- Narative and neuroscience. | 02:30 |
| kanzure | PeerInfinity: So, the channel has been around since 2008-03-22. | 02:31 |
| PeerInfinity | so, um, here's a project I started recently: http://cosmeng.org/publicwiki/index.php/The_Scenarios_Project | 02:32 |
| PeerInfinity | I'm still working on the scripts to automatically generate the graphs for each page | 02:33 |
| kanzure | Graphviz? | 02:33 |
| PeerInfinity | of course :) | 02:33 |
| kanzure | So, re: existential risks, | 02:33 |
| kanzure | Are you familiar with SIAI? | 02:33 |
| PeerInfinity | yes, I donate several thousand dollars per year to them. | 02:34 |
| kanzure | I was up in California during the summer doing some programming for them. | 02:34 |
| PeerInfinity | nice :) | 02:34 |
| kanzure | It was a web app to help people think about existential risks. | 02:34 |
| PeerInfinity | ooh, I haven't heard anything about that... | 02:34 |
| PeerInfinity | taht project | 02:34 |
| kanzure | I didn't agree with it at all. But I liked the programming and I liked being up in CA. :) | 02:35 |
| PeerInfinity | heh, and Michael Anissimov says that it's conterproductive to even talk about existential risks other than genetics, nanotechnology, and robotics: http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2008/09/ideas-for-mitigating-extinction-risk/ | 02:36 |
| kanzure | Michael was living in the same house. | 02:36 |
| PeerInfinity | ooh... | 02:36 |
| PeerInfinity | I live in Manitoba, Canada, and am employed full time as a programmer, working on regular, boring projects that have nothing to do with AI, or the future... | 02:37 |
| kanzure | Neat. | 02:37 |
| PeerInfinity | I suppose so... | 02:38 |
| kanzure | I'm a freshman at the University of Texas at Austin in manufacturing engineering and computational neuroscience. | 02:38 |
| UtopiahGHML | ( PeerInfinity if you are into SIAI Bgoertzel is making a tutorial on OpenCog PLN right now in #opencog ) | 02:38 |
| UtopiahGHML | tutorial every wednesday evening | 02:38 |
| PeerInfinity | yeah, I went to the first of those sessions, and decided not to bother going to the others... | 02:39 |
| kanzure | oh, I mean, Hi fenn. | 02:39 |
| PeerInfinity | it's fascinating stuff, but kinda useless if I'm not going to get directly involved in the project itself | 02:39 |
| kanzure | fenn: if you want to rant about O'Neilleous glory days, since Keith Henson is in our channel, now might be a good time | 02:39 |
| UtopiahGHML | you can get involved | 02:39 |
| PeerInfinity | I mean, kinda useless for me to attend | 02:39 |
| fenn | well that's lame. i missed keith henson for donuts and hanging out in a pizza parlor kitchen :( | 02:39 |
| kanzure | Oh man. Life's so cruel :) | 02:40 |
| kanzure | Yet so delicious. | 02:40 |
| fenn | ugh, no, donuts are gross | 02:40 |
| fenn | and this from a sugar addict | 02:40 |
| kanzure | Anyway. | 02:41 |
| kanzure | The opencog guys are kinda sad and kinda not at the same time. | 02:42 |
| fenn | OMFG fuck tethers.com just took down half of their papers because of ITAR | 02:43 |
| kanzure | Do you have archives? | 02:43 |
| fenn | i think so | 02:43 |
| PeerInfinity | I really should read through the discussion on the SL4 mailing list about whether or not the opencog project is a bad idea because it helps dangerous AI projects just as much as it helps the projects that we might actually want to succeed... | 02:43 |
| kanzure | Oh please. | 02:43 |
| fenn | i was building an archive of everything robert forward ever wrote | 02:44 |
| kanzure | PeerInfinity: Lame. | 02:44 |
| PeerInfinity | lame? | 02:44 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://tethers.com/ you be in luck | 02:44 |
| kanzure | PeerInfinity: Yes. Lame. | 02:44 |
| fenn | ok yeah i have a mirror | 02:44 |
| kanzure | full mirror? hrm. | 02:44 |
| PeerInfinity | how so? | 02:44 |
| kanzure | PeerInfinity: One of the messages that you have missed in the SL4 archives is the concept that we're already "AI". | 02:44 |
| kanzure | So if you're so worried about dangerous stuff from happening, go live in a padded room on the other side of the galaxies. | 02:45 |
| UtopiahGHML | (IMHO the biggest danger of OpenCog is ... not working because of the number of complex pieces to put together and a non-functional iterative approach) | 02:45 |
| kanzure | Yay somebody agrees with my disagreement with iterative/ad-hoc designs! :) | 02:45 |
| PeerInfinity | "there already is lots of danger, so let's go ahead and make more danger"? | 02:46 |
| kanzure | No. | 02:46 |
| kanzure | Our mission isn't ai anyway. | 02:46 |
| kanzure | PeerInfinity: Somewhere in the logs you'll find long debates about the bullshit that is known as 'risk'. | 02:47 |
| * PeerInfinity waits patiently for kanzure to explain... | 02:47 | |
| UtopiahGHML | PeerInfinity: the whole idea of a perfect solution is flawed IMHO, especially if you think of an "impact-less" solution that would change postively for everybody/everything without having any form of negative consequence now and later. | 02:49 |
| UtopiahGHML | You just do your best today and fix the shit resulting as it appears. | 02:49 |
| UtopiahGHML | you do your best with your predictive model, no other choice. | 02:49 |
| kanzure | PeerInfinity: If I could explain, I'd be getting your thousands of dollars instead of Eliezer. | 02:50 |
| kanzure | And I'm not. | 02:50 |
| UtopiahGHML | :) | 02:50 |
| PeerInfinity | heh... | 02:51 |
| kanzure | Eliezer has a "reality distortion device" in his left pocket. He claims intelligence is true and real, and I don't think so; but you can't quite argue with somebody who is talking about folk psych. :) | 02:51 |
| kanzure | And I'm not too interested in arguing either .. I'd much rather just go build my stuff. | 02:51 |
| PeerInfinity | anyway, the reason I started The Scenarios Project was to try to figure out if there was some other cause that I should be supporting instead... | 02:52 |
| kanzure | Aha. | 02:52 |
| kanzure | Interesting. | 02:52 |
| kanzure | PeerInfinity: http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Design | 02:52 |
| kanzure | Check that out. | 02:52 |
| PeerInfinity | checking... | 02:53 |
| fenn | susan blackmore's on to something, re: what is intelligence | 02:55 |
| kanzure | The idea is to incorporate as much functionality as possible into as small a space as possible .. there are various groups and projects working towards this. O'Neill habitats are a good example (and we're lucky enough to have Keith Henson in here tonight). Fab Lab is a good move in the right direction. | 02:55 |
| kanzure | fenn: where? | 02:55 |
| kanzure | http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Books/Meme Machine/Chapter 1.htm ? | 02:55 |
| fenn | the ted talk utopiah was talking about yesterday | 02:55 |
| kanzure | oh | 02:55 |
| fenn | http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/susan_blackmore_on_memes_and_temes.html | 02:55 |
| fenn | she does a bad job explaining what a teme is exactly though | 02:56 |
| fenn | i wouldnt consider an o'neill habitat a "small place" | 02:58 |
| kanzure | a "single" system | 02:58 |
| kanzure | Uh. How would this be worded? | 02:58 |
| fenn | i'd wager there will be more trade in/out of a space habitat than an earth port town | 02:59 |
| fenn | after all, all you have to do is fling the caro to where it's going | 02:59 |
| kanzure | Maybe. | 03:00 |
| fenn | while the political ideal is that you could simply fork() and go somewhere else, i dont think it will turn out that way | 03:01 |
| kanzure | Why would you have incentive to live in a system where you can't check the designs and functionality all the way down? | 03:01 |
| fenn | it has nothing to do with information freedom | 03:01 |
| kanzure | Seems kind of silly to me. | 03:01 |
| kanzure | No, I'm talking from the perspective of you, as a programmer-user. | 03:01 |
| fenn | it's because you need to get minerals from asteroids etc, and move people around | 03:01 |
| kanzure | yes | 03:02 |
| kanzure | so what? Why aren't you mining the minerals for yourself | 03:02 |
| fenn | so, i can check the designs all the way down | 03:02 |
| kanzure | why aren't you in control of your own mining operations? | 03:02 |
| fenn | kanzure: because i'd rather live on a habitat than in a mining facility? | 03:02 |
| kanzure | why would you have to live with the mining facility? | 03:02 |
| fenn | otherwise i'm not "in control"? | 03:02 |
| kanzure | really? | 03:02 |
| * fenn shrugs | 03:02 | |
| UtopiahGHML | is "mining facility" a metaphor for China? | 03:02 |
| kanzure | you don't push your electrons in your processor, do you? | 03:03 |
| fenn | UtopiahGHML: no | 03:03 |
| kanzure | "Why do mommy and daddy have unplanned babies?" <--- this is probably why. | 03:03 |
| kanzure | but seriously, I think it's stupid to have such long, unexplainable supply chains | 03:03 |
| fenn | kanzure: processors are deterministic, and are extremely low maintenance | 03:03 |
| UtopiahGHML | unlike women. | 03:04 |
| fenn | if i could build a solid state mining facility, i would | 03:04 |
| fenn | hence all the talk about giant mass spectrometers | 03:04 |
| * fenn contemplates solid state women | 03:05 | |
| * UtopiahGHML thinks about Solid State Society (GITS) | 03:06 | |
| kanzure | Solid State Society is a GITS reference? | 03:06 |
| fenn | i havent seen that yet | 03:07 |
| fenn | or SAC for that matter | 03:07 |
| UtopiahGHML | yep | 03:09 |
| UtopiahGHML | (everything interesting is a GITS ref) | 03:09 |
| kanzure | Everything truly interesting is a Lain ref. | 03:10 |
| UtopiahGHML | Serial Experiment Lain +1 yep | 03:11 |
| UtopiahGHML | I liked ErgoProxy a lot too but... too slow/long compared to those | 03:11 |
| UtopiahGHML | (Lain layer9 protocol ;) | 03:12 |
| kanzure | Oh. I just came up with a good characterization of Andrew. | 03:18 |
| kanzure | Andrew is my Vegeta. | 03:18 |
| UtopiahGHML | V for Vendetta and his mask for the crowd, Code Geass R2 08 and Zero's mask for rebels, it looks like P2P tactics are getting more and more "public" | 03:30 |
| UtopiahGHML | actually Id be curious to see the evolution of P2P tactics in history and in the media/culture | 03:32 |
| Splicer | "Nothing is more powerful than an idea who's time has come" | 03:33 |
| hkhenson | hi | 03:33 |
| hkhenson | back | 03:33 |
| hkhenson | needless to say anon is of great interest to me | 03:34 |
| fenn | nothing spreads as fast as a meme with willing hosts.. except for that whole internet thingy | 03:35 |
| hkhenson | have any of you read anything by clay shirky? | 03:35 |
| UtopiahGHML | nop | 03:36 |
| hkhenson | "here comes everybody" is an interesting read | 03:37 |
| fenn | "crowd sourcing" anthropologist, apparently | 03:37 |
| hkhenson | thinking about trying that to get power sats funded | 03:37 |
| hkhenson | If you have not seen this, it's worth watching | 03:38 |
| hkhenson | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCbKv9yiLiQ | 03:38 |
| hkhenson | 3.2 million views. Sheesh. | 03:38 |
| hkhenson | A crash program starting now would have a GW/day power sat production up by 2015. By 2020 the world's electric power should be switched over. By 2025 the US and China (biggest players in the game) could have most of their liquid fuels switched over to synthetics. | 03:39 |
| hkhenson | So we do this as a time travel to 2025. Whoosh, fast moving clouds, the actor is in 2025. | 03:39 |
| hkhenson | And having a conversation with a gasoline pump. Why not? By that time even a gas pump could incorporate a chat bot. Gas pump uses a computer generated voice. | 03:40 |
| hkhenson | Time Traveler expresses shock at the price of gas. Expected it to be ten to twenty dollars a gallon, it's 99 cents for regular on a display that could go to $99.99 | 03:40 |
| hkhenson | Time Traveler: What happened? | 03:40 |
| hkhenson | Gas Pump: Elaborate please. | 03:40 |
| hkhenson | TT: I expected gasoline to be more expensive than it was in 2008. | 03:40 |
| hkhenson | GP: I don't dispense natural gasoline. My superior product is a blend made mostly from synthetic oil. In a few years it will all be synthetic. | 03:40 |
| hkhenson | TT: They couldn't do that in 2008. How is it done? | 03:40 |
| hkhenson | GP: There are over 500 power sats powering the synthetic oil plants. | 03:40 |
| hkhenson | TT: We didn't have those in 2008. | 03:40 |
| hkhenson | GP: True. The first one was turned on in 2015. | 03:40 |
| fenn | hkhenson: you should be aware of tether boost technology, if you aren't already: http://web.archive.org/web/20071008084248/www.tethers.com/papers/JPC00LEOGTO.pdf | 03:42 |
| fenn | i'm also quite fond of the airplane to orbit scheme: http://web.archive.org/web/20071008084151/www.tethers.com/papers/HASTOLAIAAPaper.pdf | 03:43 |
| ppk | in shotgun sequencing, what colors are a, t, g, and c labeled, respectively? | 03:47 |
| fenn | hkhenson: and if you're absolutely stuck on lasers, at least look at http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/897Kare-modular-laser-launch.pdf | 03:47 |
| fenn | (cant find the actual paper online) | 03:48 |
| fenn | ppk: http://www.mathworks.co.kr/company/newsletters/news_notes/may03/images/dna1_large.gif | 03:49 |
| ppk | ty | 03:49 |
| fenn | this looks more like the graphs i've seen though http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/Molbio/MolStudents/01licohen/sequence1.gif | 03:50 |
| fenn | that's blue green red black | 03:51 |
| ppk | looks ugly | 03:51 |
| fenn | ofcourse, this is SCIENCE man! no room for decent graphics | 03:51 |
| hkhenson | lasers just look to be less expensive than rockets | 03:54 |
| gene_ | wait a minute K? | 03:54 |
| gene_ | where does the K come from | 03:54 |
| hkhenson | the other less expensive than rockets is the partial elevator where you use a rocket to the end of it | 03:54 |
| fenn | gene_: it's an ambiguous result | 03:55 |
| gene_ | oh | 03:55 |
| fenn | Y = pyrimidine, K = um, something | 03:55 |
| gene_ | what about launch from a balloon from the edge of space or attaching a ion drive to a high altitude airship | 03:56 |
| fenn | there is no "edge of space" | 03:56 |
| fenn | the atmosphere trails off exponentially | 03:57 |
| gene_ | giving you something edge like | 03:57 |
| fenn | an ion drive would never have enough thrust to overcome atmospheric drag | 03:57 |
| fenn | (unless you were already in orbit) | 03:57 |
| gene_ | not at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_airship | 03:57 |
| fenn | those guys are full of shit | 03:58 |
| fenn | a waverider might possibly work, but that's totally different | 03:58 |
| UtopiahGHML | "< fenn> ofcourse, this is SCIENCE man! no room for decent graphics" except that graphics are cognitive tools... (that you actually pay for a very high price in journals) | 03:59 |
| fenn | heh UtopiahGHML so how come so much science graphics is atrocious? | 04:00 |
| fenn | people using full page 256 color .gifs for their webpage | 04:00 |
| fenn | there ought to be an art department for every research program | 04:01 |
| UtopiahGHML | "there ought to be" always sounds like a weird idea to me | 04:02 |
| fenn | currently this is accomplished by the NSF's "outreach" requirement | 04:02 |
| fenn | you have to either hire marginalized groups such as minorities, or have really good communication with the lay public | 04:03 |
| fenn | now, this seems like a weird idea to me | 04:03 |
| fenn | man that boeing waverider on wikipedia is ugly | 04:04 |
| fenn | i did better with my legos | 04:04 |
| UtopiahGHML | already thought that your parents "instanciated" yourself? | 04:09 |
| fenn | say that again? | 04:09 |
| UtopiahGHML | already thought that your parents "instanciated" you? | 04:10 |
| fenn | i mean i dont know what you are saying | 04:10 |
| UtopiahGHML | you have a model or a class an abstraction | 04:10 |
| UtopiahGHML | if you build something from it you have an entitity of the possible population | 04:10 |
| UtopiahGHML | you can call that instancianting an entity/element | 04:11 |
| UtopiahGHML | having a new instance | 04:11 |
| fenn | ok, and what does this have to do with legos/spaceships/anything? | 04:11 |
| UtopiahGHML | option #3 | 04:11 |
| fenn | so, "I'm a possible person", yes, big deal | 04:12 |
| fenn | hkhenson: do you have any links to "partial space elevator"? | 04:13 |
| * kanzure goes out to find some meats. | 04:15 | |
| PeerInfinity | bye | 04:42 |
| hkhenson | no I don't | 05:05 |
| hkhenson | there should be a link | 05:05 |
| hkhenson | there was a presentation about it at the military conf on space based solar power Oct 2-3 | 05:06 |
| fenn | yes i see that | 05:06 |
| hkhenson | ron clark gave the talk | 05:06 |
| fenn | is it anything like launch loop or space fountain? | 05:07 |
| kanzure | Hi eschatoon. | 05:36 |
| eschatoon | Hi everyone | 05:37 |
| * kanzure is watching ANH. | 05:37 | |
| bkero | ANH/ | 05:38 |
| bkero | ? | 05:38 |
| eschatoon | do you guys think freenode gives a stable and fast irc service, or is it better to install an irc server? | 05:38 |
| bkero | Freenode is good enough | 05:38 |
| bkero | I admin three of the nodes | 05:38 |
| kanzure | Freenode has been stable for at least a decade. | 05:38 |
| bkero | If you'd like to us those :) | 05:38 |
| bkero | I admin brown, kurtz, niven, and zelazny | 05:39 |
| bkero | My bad, that's 4. | 05:39 |
| kanzure | Heh. Niven. | 05:39 |
| bkero | I showed you the agalmics manifesto, didn't I? | 05:40 |
| kanzure | I thought /I/ showed you. | 05:40 |
| bkero | Nope | 05:40 |
| fenn | no I showed YOU! | 05:40 |
| kanzure | well that's true fenn :) | 05:40 |
| bkero | I read about it in accelerando and posted the link here :P | 05:40 |
| gene_ | agalmics? | 05:40 |
| bkero | http://www.openverse.com/~dtinker/agalmics.html | 05:40 |
| gene_ | scarcity elimination | 05:40 |
| gene_ | got it | 05:40 |
| bkero | Email: levin@openprojects.net | 05:40 |
| bkero | Online: lilo at Open Projects Net IRC | 05:40 |
| kanzure | In Accelerando? What a sick way to come across it, bkero. | 05:40 |
| kanzure | bkero: lilo is dead. :( | 05:41 |
| bkero | lilo was the owner of Freenode | 05:41 |
| bkero | kanzure: He is lilo. | 05:41 |
| kanzure | Oh. I was thinking of Larry Niven actually. | 05:41 |
| kanzure | Since the name of the nodes are scifi authors. | 05:41 |
| bkero | No. :P | 05:41 |
| kanzure | Zelanzy, niven, heinlein, etc. | 05:41 |
| bkero | Robert Levin, the owner of freenode, wrote the paper on agalmics. | 05:41 |
| bkero | and subsequenly died | 05:41 |
| kanzure | Yes, yes, I know. | 05:41 |
| kanzure | Hrm. | 05:41 |
| fenn | accelerando has a lot of "new" stuff in it | 05:42 |
| eschatoon | hat is where stross got the idea? | 05:42 |
| fenn | gathered from the wastes of the net | 05:42 |
| kanzure | Stross steals all of his ideas :) in a friendly way. | 05:42 |
| gene_ | doesn't accelerando have russian powered gas boots? | 05:42 |
| eschatoon | what happened to levin? | 05:42 |
| kanzure | Death. | 05:42 |
| gene_ | i mean gas powered boots | 05:42 |
| kanzure | Biking accident in Houston. | 05:42 |
| bkero | Death stole him from us | 05:42 |
| fenn | hit by car | 05:42 |
| bkero | fenn: Have you read accelerando? | 05:42 |
| fenn | yes | 05:43 |
| bkero | I'm reading it on the train commute | 05:43 |
| kanzure | Neverness > Accelerando. | 05:43 |
| bkero | I'm almost done with the 2nd chapter | 05:43 |
| kanzure | Though Neverness =~ k*accelerando | 05:43 |
| bkero | The Rediscovery of Man > Neverness | 05:43 |
| kanzure | Have you read both? | 05:43 |
| kanzure | Bah, just an immortality novel. | 05:44 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/graph/bloodgate.com/graph-easy/ | 05:44 |
| bkero | No, If you're saying it's like an amplified accelerando, I'd say Rediscovery of Man is better | 05:44 |
| kanzure | So how would you know if you haven't read both? | 05:45 |
| kanzure | O.o | 05:45 |
| fenn | you havent even finished accelerando! | 05:45 |
| bkero | :P | 05:45 |
| bkero | I know. | 05:45 |
| bkero | Right now I'm reading The Sickness unto Death, Accelerando, and Godel Escher Bach. | 05:46 |
| * kanzure sometimes accidentally sends stuff to Stross when he means to send said such stuff to gene_ | 05:46 | |
| bkero | kanzure: wtf? | 05:46 |
| kanzure | Both are named 'Charlie'. | 05:47 |
| kanzure | so, "Charlie<tab>" ==> Stross | 05:47 |
| kanzure | email client | 05:47 |
| gene_ | huh? | 05:47 |
| kanzure | Tab completion. | 05:47 |
| fenn | he'll steal all your best chess ideas, watch out | 05:47 |
| bkero | Do you often write emails to stross? | 05:47 |
| kanzure | Not all too often. Maybe less than ten overall. | 05:47 |
| bkero | I've been tempted to read House of Leaves more than once. | 05:49 |
| bkero | Simply because I seem to enjoy 'fucked up shit'. | 05:49 |
| eschatoon | are transhumanist channels compatible with the policy and focus of freenode or they prefer having only opensource software channels? | 05:49 |
| eschatoon | we can say that transhumanism is opensource philosophy and memetivs | 05:49 |
| gene_ | this conversation seems to have digressed into a discussion of scifi, instead of how to make scifi possible | 05:50 |
| fenn | eschatoon: freenode is geared towards supporting peer directed projects, which is what we are doing | 05:50 |
| fenn | there are also generic topical channels like ##electronics and #space though | 05:51 |
| fenn | generally the idea is "let's just all get along" instead of the usual flame-fest on most irc networks | 05:51 |
| kanzure | Lee misdaled me | 05:55 |
| kanzure | dialed | 05:55 |
| hkhenson | it's very amusing for me to read stross | 06:35 |
| hkhenson | and see all the stuff I have contributed to the TH/extropian world show up in his novels | 06:36 |
| kanzure | Heh. | 07:18 |
| kanzure | The onlinemetals guy got back to me. | 07:18 |
| kanzure | "Since two of you came to me within the same hour about this .." he was cc'ing to Alec Resnick ;-) | 07:19 |
| kanzure | http://www.onlinemetals.com/amm32701.cfm | 07:34 |
| bkero | Heh, I've ordered stuff through them before. | 07:37 |
| fenn | their prices are very good for <1ft cuts | 07:37 |
| fenn | most places end up charging about the sme for 1 inch as 1 foot | 07:38 |
| bkero | I've gotten some brass plate stock and aluminum from them | 07:38 |
| fenn | i got CRS for my gingery lathe from them | 07:38 |
| bkero | also a small 64x64mm 1/8" thick piece of copper for a waterblock | 07:38 |
| bkero | Nobody makes waterblocks big enough for my peltier | 07:39 |
| fenn | bkero: check out that block of copper: http://rugludallur.com/index.php?id=123 | 07:40 |
| fenn | (bottom right) | 07:40 |
| bkero | That's an absurd piece of copper if it's solid | 07:41 |
| bkero | Wow | 07:41 |
| bkero | I cold make some things out of that :) | 07:41 |
| * bkero sleeps on it | 07:41 | |
| fenn | they sliced it like bread for water blocks | 07:41 |
| kanzure | Server will probably die tonight. | 07:42 |
| fenn | should we hold a vigil? | 07:42 |
| kanzure | vigil? | 07:42 |
| kanzure | No, I mean the laptop. | 07:43 |
| kanzure | The power adapter is not transmitting power. Screen is flickering because the battery is randomly cutting off every half second. | 07:43 |
| kanzure | Okay. | 07:51 |
| kanzure | Looks like we might be having ourselves a deal with onlinemetals.com | 07:51 |
| kanzure | and yeah, server is dying | 07:51 |
| kanzure | stupid battery | 07:52 |
| fenn | so uh, what's the dealy? | 07:52 |
| fenn | yo | 07:52 |
| willPow3r | ahh, starcraft. | 09:58 |
| willPow3r | now i remember where my adolescence went | 09:58 |
| UtopiahGHML | Starcraft2.0 out?! | 10:00 |
| willPow3r | i wish | 10:00 |
| willPow3r | i'm checking out trailers for it now | 10:00 |
| willPow3r | i hope it gets leaked early like when spore came out | 10:02 |
| UtopiahGHML | don't do that | 10:02 |
| UtopiahGHML | don't look at the trailers! | 10:02 |
| willPow3r | you're probably right | 10:02 |
| willPow3r | have you seen em? | 10:02 |
| UtopiahGHML | yes :/ | 10:02 |
| willPow3r | my friends and i have been having serious SC sessions lately in anticipation | 10:04 |
| willPow3r | like the total nerds we are | 10:07 |
| * UtopiahGHML was a hardcore fan of Q3/WC3 | 10:08 | |
| willPow3r | i never played wc3 because i confused it with WoW and regarded it as "totally gay" | 10:09 |
| UtopiahGHML | tsss | 10:09 |
| willPow3r | but i hear its actually pretty good | 10:09 |
| UtopiahGHML | ask SouthKoreans :) | 10:11 |
| willPow3r | the person or race? | 10:14 |
| UtopiahGHML | try both | 10:14 |
| willPow3r | p2p file sharing sucks | 10:18 |
| UtopiahGHML | try bittorrent | 10:19 |
| willPow3r | the blizzard trailer downloader uses bittorrent | 10:19 |
| willPow3r | but it always stops with less than 200 k to d/load | 10:19 |
| willPow3r | every video file i've tried | 10:19 |
| UtopiahGHML | wow, sorry but you have... the curse! | 10:20 |
| willPow3r | i hear it's contagious | 10:20 |
| willPow3r | come a little closer | 10:20 |
| UtopiahGHML | eh.... | 10:21 |
| UtopiahGHML | stop that, it's totally awkward man. | 10:21 |
| willPow3r | what is | 10:21 |
| UtopiahGHML | virtual gay relationship on IRC with someone you hardly know that is! | 10:22 |
| willPow3r | hmm. homophobia eh? | 10:22 |
| willPow3r | you aren't certain that you aren't gay? | 10:22 |
| willPow3r | maybe... afraid that you might be? | 10:23 |
| willPow3r | at least you can't get stds from irc | 10:23 |
| UtopiahGHML | you can get virii | 10:24 |
| willPow3r | IRC: Taking the "ST" out of STIs | 10:24 |
| willPow3r | starcraft 2 already sucks | 10:26 |
| willPow3r | can't even get the trailers to d/load | 10:26 |
| UtopiahGHML | fail :) | 10:30 |
| willPow3r | epic | 10:30 |
| fenn | i've noticed a lot of "just released" torrents stop at 99% or so, i think it's some sort of strategy to make more seeders | 10:39 |
| UtopiahGHML | never had that problem | 10:40 |
| willPow3r | it could be | 10:50 |
| UtopiahGHML | Curious Yellow: The First Coordinated Worm Design by Brandon Wiley - http://blanu.net/curious_yellow.html | 12:55 |
| willPow3r | symbiotic computer worms/virii? | 13:02 |
| UtopiahGHML | it's actually pretty close to FreeNet update mechanism | 13:03 |
| UtopiahGHML | except that... the host accepts it knowledgingly ;) | 13:03 |
| faceface | screen for X server? | 14:24 |
| faceface | screen is for shell what ??? is for X? | 14:24 |
| faceface | screen is for shell what ??? is for X!!? | 14:24 |
| faceface | gah, I mean X11 | 14:25 |
| faceface | someone in here talked about it once... | 14:27 |
| UtopiahGHML | * references added in Communication/Marketing/Xye | 14:27 |
| UtopiahGHML | * ISBN : 978-1-59184-166-1 The Dip by Seth Godin (recommended by Nicolas) | 14:27 |
| UtopiahGHML | woop sorry | 14:27 |
| UtopiahGHML | An X client cannot generally be detached from one server and reattached to another, as with Virtual Network Computing (VNC), though certain specific applications and toolkits are able to provide this facility.[6] Workarounds (VNC :0 viewers) also exist to make the current X-server screen available via VNC. | 14:27 |
| UtopiahGHML | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System#Network | 14:27 |
| procto | faceface: what X is for X | 14:27 |
| procto | faceface: you can set up X to allow remote connections over SSH | 14:28 |
| faceface | procto, exactly | 14:28 |
| UtopiahGHML | X is a network server. | 14:28 |
| UtopiahGHML | it is just being used very often locally | 14:28 |
| faceface | problem is that the network goes down and the X session is lost | 14:28 |
| faceface | screen fixes this for terminals | 14:28 |
| UtopiahGHML | use VNC | 14:29 |
| faceface | x fixes this for X? | 14:29 |
| faceface | ok | 14:29 |
| procto | yeah VNC | 14:29 |
| faceface | so x=VNC | 14:29 |
| procto | you can run nohup, but I don't know if that persists X | 14:29 |
| UtopiahGHML | ^ SNAP Computing and the X Window System http://www.freedesktop.org/~jg/Papers/ols2005.pdf | 14:29 |
| faceface | btw, anyone looked at modelling developmental pathways? | 14:29 |
| UtopiahGHML | for what? | 14:30 |
| UtopiahGHML | cognitive dev? | 14:30 |
| faceface | there are now movies of cellular growth that track each cell | 14:30 |
| faceface | like you can watch a fish embryo ear grow at the cellular level | 14:30 |
| faceface | just for bio | 14:30 |
| UtopiahGHML | nice, url? | 14:30 |
| faceface | the idea is to predict some pathways and then model the process to see if your predictions make sense... | 14:31 |
| faceface | one moment | 14:31 |
| UtopiahGHML | same for neurons? | 14:31 |
| faceface | mostly embryo | 14:31 |
| faceface | the worm brain has such a network though? no? | 14:31 |
| UtopiahGHML | the worm brain?! | 14:31 |
| UtopiahGHML | it's a purely reflex system over the whole body, isn't it? | 14:32 |
| faceface | not tried (just looking up the ref) try googling for the digital fish project | 14:32 |
| faceface | sean megason | 14:32 |
| UtopiahGHML | btw since you guys know a lot about bio stuff, old question I had and no answer so far : | 14:33 |
| UtopiahGHML | in [1] "An introduction to brain and behavior" neurons have the ability to self-rewrite themselves (not just change their connections) and thus I'd like to know : | 14:33 |
| UtopiahGHML | How do soma integrate information ? Is the use of their RNA to restructure themselves part of their learning/adapting process ? Does this actually build the "computation" core ? (thus the treshold required for an action potential generation) Is there actually a boolean/logic model of the behavior of the soma ? | 14:33 |
| UtopiahGHML | (was page 78 "Even in a mature, full grown neuron, the cell's generative blueprint can <<reopened>>, allowing the neuron to alter its structure and function by producing new proteins.") | 14:34 |
| faceface | the genetic basis of learning in neurones is an active area of research | 14:35 |
| faceface | don't know the answer though | 14:35 |
| faceface | me that is | 14:35 |
| faceface | UtopiahGHML, linux? | 14:35 |
| faceface | UtopiahGHML, "it's a purely reflex system over the whole body, isn't it" - I'm talking about the patways of development, not networks of synapses | 14:37 |
| faceface | what is the soma btw? | 14:37 |
| faceface | UtopiahGHML, the url you pasted timed out | 14:39 |
| UtopiahGHML | try to waybackmachine it | 14:39 |
| UtopiahGHML | linuxwhat? | 14:39 |
| UtopiahGHML | soma is the core of the neuron, where the integration mechanism takes places (treshold for signal or not) | 14:40 |
| UtopiahGHML | yep I understand the idea of dev pathway but I don't understand the idea of a "worm brain" | 14:40 |
| faceface | UtopiahGHML, are you running linux | 14:41 |
| faceface | the developmental pathway of the worm brain | 14:41 |
| UtopiahGHML | nop but Im connected through a shell running GNU/linux, why? | 14:41 |
| faceface | its not wired up at random | 14:41 |
| UtopiahGHML | yes but all the worms Iknow (and... that's not a lot ;) have no brain. | 14:41 |
| faceface | so I can give you this... rtsp://dan.bolser:000006@meetstream.cshl.edu:554/Secure/INFOUK/7.rm?title="Megason"&start=0:26:56.0&end=0:47:17.0 | 14:41 |
| faceface | call mplayer on that | 14:41 |
| faceface | with a dumpstream | 14:42 |
| faceface | and then see how much you got and get the next chunk :( | 14:42 |
| faceface | UtopiahGHML, they have 149 neurones precicely | 14:42 |
| faceface | your question was about fish though | 14:42 |
| faceface | where can I put a 15M file? (the first 5 min part of that lecture) | 14:43 |
| UtopiahGHML | rapidshare.com, megaupload.com, yousendit.com | 14:43 |
| faceface | well, if you can wait, I'll cap that lecture for you | 14:44 |
| faceface | in 5 min chunks | 14:44 |
| UtopiahGHML | (wasn't able to open the URL) | 14:44 |
| faceface | tried to open it wiht mplayer? | 14:44 |
| UtopiahGHML | VLC | 14:45 |
| faceface | put in the username and pwd as given? | 14:45 |
| UtopiahGHML | yep | 14:45 |
| faceface | after about 5 mins mplayer falls over too | 14:45 |
| UtopiahGHML | (hmm can open it now with WindowsMediaClassic) | 14:46 |
| UtopiahGHML | any specific time to check? | 14:47 |
| faceface | don't remember | 14:47 |
| * UtopiahGHML watching | 14:48 | |
| faceface | anyone else can get the first part here... | 14:49 |
| faceface | http://rapidshare.com/files/156812071/5.2.1.rm.html | 14:49 |
| UtopiahGHML | (3min in, no problem so far) | 14:49 |
| faceface | UtopiahGHML, licenced software should work fine | 14:50 |
| faceface | (you get what you pay for) | 14:50 |
| UtopiahGHML | it's not a license software AFAIR but a hacked version of WMP | 14:50 |
| faceface | I got 10 mins that time! | 14:50 |
| UtopiahGHML | :) | 14:50 |
| UtopiahGHML | (5min timestep passed, still no problem) | 14:51 |
| faceface | http://rapidshare.com/files/156813229/5.2.2.rm.html | 14:51 |
| faceface | part 2 | 14:51 |
| faceface | rapid share really sucks | 14:53 |
| UtopiahGHML | you don't have an ftp on a RPS/VPS? | 14:53 |
| faceface | http://rapidshare.com/files/156813920/5.2.3.rm.html | 14:54 |
| faceface | part 3 | 14:54 |
| faceface | RSP/VPS? | 14:54 |
| faceface | so no | 14:54 |
| faceface | I don't | 14:54 |
| UtopiahGHML | (I should put some http upload for friends on my website) | 14:54 |
| faceface | did you see the ear growing yet? | 14:54 |
| faceface | anyway, they will collect this data for all kinds of mutants and then manually try to map the pathway | 14:55 |
| faceface | and I'm thinking... I bet kanzure would want to make that compterized | 14:55 |
| faceface | they do the same in plants | 14:55 |
| UtopiahGHML | a database for biomimicry patterns | 14:55 |
| faceface | OK, the three pieces are 5, 10 and 5 mins | 14:56 |
| UtopiahGHML | Id enjoy having the too | 14:56 |
| faceface | also the underlying genetic regulatory netowrk | 14:56 |
| faceface | s | 14:56 |
| faceface | :D | 14:56 |
| UtopiahGHML | eventually abstracted as potential optimization algo | 14:56 |
| UtopiahGHML | and a choosing algo based on situation identification based on pattern detection | 14:56 |
| UtopiahGHML | yep, Id enjoy that a lot. | 14:57 |
| UtopiahGHML | would be like biomimicry historical database that you could query when required. | 14:57 |
| faceface | yeah | 14:57 |
| faceface | but the genetics really makes this possible for the first time | 14:57 |
| faceface | later he talks about embryo arrays | 14:58 |
| faceface | they systematically mutate and watch the development | 14:58 |
| faceface | in the old days you couldn't do the genetics (never mind the image analysis) | 14:58 |
| faceface | in plants you can watch the different branching patterns that result from different genetic manipulation | 14:59 |
| faceface | btw, did you guys hear about the 'conscious cells' talk in cambridge recently? | 14:59 |
| faceface | if you take a neuronal spike train and slow it down it sounds like gulls cawing... | 14:59 |
| faceface | amoeba can build a house... | 15:00 |
| UtopiahGHML | (fuck... resync was a bad idea...) | 15:00 |
| UtopiahGHML | hmmm with dev. array you can extract patterns automatically pretty easilly, nice | 15:08 |
| UtopiahGHML | anybody working for NYU School of Medicine? | 15:17 |
| UtopiahGHML | Id like to make some study over time in the "biomimicry historical database" to see the evolution of patterns :) | 15:35 |
| UtopiahGHML | (and eventually coevolution patterns) | 15:37 |
| UtopiahGHML | then have the same study in software | 15:37 |
| UtopiahGHML | and compare the 2. | 15:37 |
| UtopiahGHML | Then study the impact of energy availability on pattern evolution | 15:39 |
| UtopiahGHML | and try to predict what will happen... now. | 15:39 |
| kanzure__ | Hi all. | 16:06 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: The power supply is 'clicking' if you put the heatbrick up to your ear. The laptop has drained its battery. I'm used to the power adapter's cord breaking off and I have various materials for fixing that sort of problem, but this one is strange and foreign to me. If I can figure out what component is broken and why, I have three other previous adapters laying around with working parts (just not wires/cords). | 16:07 |
| * kanzure__ wonders if "UPDATE blah as blah2 SET blah2.thingy='hrm' WHERE <big crapload of qualifiers>" is valid MySQL. | 17:00 | |
| faceface | what is blah2.thingy ? | 17:05 |
| xp_prg | fenn you here man? | 17:08 |
| hkhenson | morning | 17:08 |
| xp_prg | good morning | 17:09 |
| bkero | Morn' | 17:09 |
| kanzure__ | Hello. | 17:09 |
| hkhenson | power satellites are heating up as a topic | 17:09 |
| kanzure__ | faceface: I'm not sure. | 17:09 |
| kanzure__ | Hey Keith. | 17:09 |
| kanzure__ | Hi xp_prg . | 17:09 |
| hkhenson | hi kan | 17:09 |
| hkhenson | and all | 17:09 |
| kanzure__ | Nah, not all. | 17:09 |
| xp_prg | hey kanzure__! | 17:09 |
| * kanzure__ is in the lab. | 17:09 | |
| faceface | kanzure__, er... well in that case it looks wrong | 17:09 |
| xp_prg | kanzure can you help me for a minute? | 17:10 |
| kanzure__ | xp_prg: Hrm? | 17:10 |
| kanzure__ | The server is down for the moment. I'll get it back up later today though. | 17:10 |
| xp_prg | ok, first have you seend my program run at all yet? | 17:10 |
| xp_prg | seen | 17:10 |
| bkero | kanzure__: I'm looking to mirror NCBI. Do you have any script or anything to do that with? | 17:10 |
| kanzure__ | Yes. | 17:10 |
| bkero | Gimme? | 17:10 |
| kanzure__ | bkero: No. I was running wget -m -np on NCBI a few times for human genome stuff though. | 17:10 |
| bkero | Heh | 17:11 |
| bkero | That's a way to do it | 17:11 |
| kanzure__ | They have instructions in their FTP dirs. | 17:11 |
| xp_prg | ok, I want to continue on my program and when you right click on the picture it says new bio brick, can you help me to know what should happen there, you mentioned before a type of cascading menu into the different bio brick categories, can you help me to know those please? | 17:11 |
| kanzure__ | No. That's why you need to make the backend. | 17:11 |
| kanzure__ | If I knew that already we'd have the frontend done. | 17:11 |
| kanzure__ | (Okay, plus a few other rules for their interconnection.) | 17:12 |
| kanzure__ | *interconnectivity | 17:12 |
| xp_prg | kanzure__ you don't know the answer to my question? | 17:12 |
| kanzure__ | Correct. I do not know the actual categorical constraints on the biobrick listings. | 17:12 |
| kanzure__ | If anybody has my old biobricks.zip file from my server though, they might have some category files that may or may not be useful .. | 17:12 |
| kanzure__ | Hrm. I should go home to fix it. | 17:13 |
| xp_prg | you don't any at all? I just want like 1 or 2 right now | 17:13 |
| kanzure__ | What good would that do? | 17:13 |
| xp_prg | it will help people understand what I am trying to do and they can give input into more categorizations etc... | 17:13 |
| kanzure__ | You might as well just call it 'ABC' and 'DEF.' | 17:13 |
| kanzure__ | No, the categorization comes from partsregistry.org. | 17:13 |
| xp_prg | http://partsregistry.org/Part_Types | 17:15 |
| xp_prg | like here? | 17:15 |
| xp_prg | you have Systems, Devices, Parts | 17:15 |
| kanzure__ | No. | 17:15 |
| kanzure__ | http://synbioss.sf.net/ | 17:15 |
| kanzure__ | http://neptune.cems.umn.edu/designer/interface1.php Look at the SELECT element. | 17:15 |
| xp_prg | ok so use promoter, RBS, Coding DNA, Terminator as the categories? | 17:16 |
| kanzure__ | In particular my original rip of partsregistry.org was categorical, from the front page of the different biobricks in very much the same way that the SELECT element lists on that neptune page. | 17:17 |
| kanzure__ | Yes, but you don't know what it means, so it's pointless right now. | 17:17 |
| kanzure__ | :) | 17:17 |
| xp_prg | I know what a promoter is | 17:17 |
| kanzure__ | I don't care if you know what a promoter is. | 17:17 |
| kanzure__ | That's not what we're talking about .. | 17:17 |
| kanzure__ | I thought we were talking about a computer program :( | 17:17 |
| kanzure__ | Whether the category is called 'ABC' or 'promoter' is mostly irrelevant .. | 17:18 |
| kanzure__ | unless you have the rules for how to throw things together. | 17:18 |
| xp_prg | oh ok, patience, it will work out | 17:18 |
| kanzure__ | How could you possibly know that? | 17:18 |
| xp_prg | ya I don't know that, but I am trying to get that information | 17:18 |
| kanzure__ | How? | 17:18 |
| xp_prg | by prototyping and getting feedback from the community | 17:19 |
| xp_prg | release early/release often | 17:19 |
| kanzure__ | uh? | 17:19 |
| kanzure__ | They would have already told us. | 17:19 |
| UtopiahGHML | Scrum | 17:20 |
| xp_prg | ya UtopiahGHML exactly | 17:20 |
| kanzure__ | Scrum what? | 17:20 |
| UtopiahGHML | xp_prg: Im trying to convert my wiki ToDo list to a Scrum feature list where priority is based on users betting/vote | 17:20 |
| xp_prg | smart man! | 17:21 |
| kanzure__ | UtopiahGHML: http://hnb.sf.net/ I was using this for three years for todo list management. | 17:21 |
| UtopiahGHML | kanzure__: well thanks but I have a structured ToDo list (hierarchy) and now I just want to add semantic information and incorporate the top items in my "strategical scoreboard" | 17:23 |
| UtopiahGHML | (ideally using Intrade API) | 17:23 |
| kanzure__ | Yes, hnb is also a hierarchical system, there's an XML export option too. :) | 17:24 |
| kanzure__ | It's not maintained, so don't bother. | 17:24 |
| kanzure__ | I liked the interface though. It was nice. | 17:24 |
| UtopiahGHML | no community, no API, Id rather avoid it | 17:24 |
| kanzure__ | UtopiahGHML: Have you ever seen http://heybryan.org/todo.html? | 17:25 |
| kanzure__ | Crap. Server still down. Hrm. | 17:25 |
| UtopiahGHML | no the server was always down ;) | 17:25 |
| kanzure__ | Then what the hell was ever up? | 17:25 |
| UtopiahGHML | you don't have mirrors and failsafe redirection? | 17:26 |
| kanzure__ | No. I am broke. | 17:31 |
| kanzure__ | If you want to mirror my 400 GB, I'd be very happy to give you a hard drive. | 17:31 |
| UtopiahGHML | well you could stay by mirroring the wiki and file you often use they the rest eventually | 17:31 |
| UtopiahGHML | Im pretty sure that would be <50MB | 17:32 |
| kanzure__ | When I get things rolling again I'll have to show you webalizer's output. | 17:32 |
| UtopiahGHML | http://www.archive.org/about/faqs.php | 17:37 |
| UtopiahGHML | you could auto-redirect there when it get indexed | 17:37 |
| kanzure__ | http://web.archive.org/web/*/heybryan.org/ an old index :) | 17:40 |
| UtopiahGHML | so you could have a super-cheap host to only do failsafe redirection | 17:44 |
| UtopiahGHML | only critera : uptime + ping | 17:45 |
| kanzure__ | epitron offered me hosting, but his cyst and big head got in the way | 17:46 |
| kanzure__ | A while back I was linking over to cpan re: graph segmentation algorithms and packages. Can anybody help me retrieve those links? | 17:52 |
| UtopiahGHML | nop | 17:55 |
| xp_prg | kanzure__ sent you biobench .002 | 18:37 |
| xp_prg | prcto you here man? | 18:53 |
| pk | xp are you will? | 19:01 |
| xp_prg | ya | 19:03 |
| pk | I made a logo for biobench | 19:03 |
| xp_prg | nice! | 19:03 |
| pk | what's your email? | 19:03 |
| xp_prg | wgheath@gmail.com | 19:03 |
| xp_prg | want to see my biobench .002? | 19:03 |
| pk | sure | 19:04 |
| xp_prg | ok send me the logo and I will send you the new program :> | 19:04 |
| pk | sent | 19:04 |
| xp_prg | can you think of a good slogan? | 19:08 |
| xp_prg | like "We make synthetic biology easier" | 19:09 |
| xp_prg | or Making Synthetic Biology Easier | 19:09 |
| pk | I dunno | 19:09 |
| pk | did you get the logo | 19:09 |
| xp_prg | ya I just put it in! | 19:09 |
| pk | cool | 19:10 |
| xp_prg | help me with the slogan for a minute, based on what you have seen so far what is the first thing you think of when you think biobench? | 19:10 |
| pk | putting biobricks together | 19:10 |
| xp_prg | awsome! | 19:10 |
| pk | hm, I can't access bryan's biobench page | 19:12 |
| pk | you have a link? | 19:12 |
| xp_prg | I am emailing it to you now | 19:15 |
| xp_prg | do you have a website you could post it on? | 19:15 |
| pk | yeah | 19:18 |
| xp_prg | awsome man! | 19:18 |
| pk | the dna colors changed in a strange way though, lol | 19:22 |
| pk | one sec, putting it up | 19:22 |
| pk | did Bryan take the biobench stuff down? | 19:23 |
| pk | or is his server down | 19:23 |
| xp_prg | his server is down :( | 19:23 |
| pk | yeah | 19:23 |
| xp_prg | pk it would be way cool if you make like some html help or like a description of how to use the program with screenshots | 19:24 |
| pk | http://www.umassigem.org/biobench/biobench.html | 19:26 |
| pk | and yeah I can do that, as you guys keep working on it | 19:27 |
| xp_prg | sweet! | 19:30 |
| xp_prg | pk send out an email to the list of biobench .002 please! | 19:30 |
| xp_prg | with that link | 19:30 |
| pk | I have a mockup for you | 19:31 |
| pk | one sec | 19:31 |
| pk | sent | 19:37 |
| pk | so yeah, maybe the logo could be pale in the bg | 19:37 |
| pk | and then when a project is started | 19:37 |
| pk | it's overwritten by whatever's being worked on | 19:37 |
| xp_prg | cool idea! | 19:39 |
| xp_prg | pk send an email to the diybio list man! | 19:39 |
| pk | what would they do with it though? | 19:42 |
| xp_prg | see it and give feedback on it! | 19:42 |
| pk | eh, still no feedback from the first, lol | 19:43 |
| xp_prg | well, it is more functional now :> | 19:43 |
| xp_prg | pk do you know how to make a screencast movie? | 19:43 |
| pk | yeah | 19:43 |
| pk | although I don't have the software | 19:43 |
| xp_prg | oh ok | 19:43 |
| xp_prg | well send a link anyway :> | 19:44 |
| pk | my server seems to be having problems | 19:49 |
| pk | I love how the background blurs when you open some stuff in biobench | 19:56 |
| xp_prg | cool man | 19:56 |
| wrldpc2 | Are folks going to be live-blogging the SingSum? | 20:25 |
| xp_prg | what is SingSum? | 20:25 |
| wrldpc2 | www.singularitysummit.com | 20:26 |
| UtopiahGHML | wrldpc2: do you think you could understand it though? | 20:28 |
| UtopiahGHML | because... | 20:28 |
| UtopiahGHML | The Singularity Summit gathers the *smartest people around* to explore the biggest ideas of our time. | 20:29 |
| * UtopiahGHML hate SIAI communication-fund-raising mahamoth machinery. | 20:29 | |
| wrldpc2 | heh :-) | 20:29 |
| UtopiahGHML | Singularity="the rapture of the nerds." | 20:30 |
| wrldpc2 | B said he did some programming for them this summer and that they were cool? Kurzweil has received criticism for his wuwei "oh things will just work out" demeanor. | 20:31 |
| UtopiahGHML | well in #opencog most of the time so yes, I think most people there are smart and cool | 20:32 |
| UtopiahGHML | still... | 20:32 |
| wrldpc2 | What is Kurzweil actually doing besides promotion? | 20:37 |
| UtopiahGHML | didn't follow SIAI for a while beside OpenCog, Im waiting for the summit podcast/video then we'll see | 20:38 |
| UtopiahGHML | but as said before I have little hope, they don't take a real incremental approach, they aim high but without having an always function project evolving incrementaly, I don't believe in int. | 20:39 |
| UtopiahGHML | they talk about recursive improvement | 20:40 |
| UtopiahGHML | but they don't apply it. | 20:40 |
| UtopiahGHML | good theoretical design idea | 20:40 |
| wrldpc2 | mm | 20:40 |
| UtopiahGHML | but maybe too good and too theoretical to work | 20:41 |
| UtopiahGHML | IMHO :) | 20:41 |
| wrldpc2 | I'll brb, coffee in hahvahd | 20:41 |
| kanzure__ | wrldpc2 -- I did programming for a subgroup related to singinst.org .. not singinst themselves. | 22:22 |
| kanzure__ | also, they talk about 'recursive self-improvement' because they want this silly thing called 'coherent extrapolated volition' | 22:23 |
| kanzure__ | and it's all bullshit, so just ignore it | 22:23 |
| kanzure__ | Basically they're taking an opposite approach to just about everything | 22:23 |
| xp_prg | kanzure__ did you see my new biobench? | 22:34 |
| kanzure__ | No. Flash doesn't work. | 22:47 |
| kanzure__ | http://www.utexas.edu/inside_ut/take5/sathasivan/ <-- Bioreactor prof. | 22:52 |
| kanzure__ | better: http://www.sbs.utexas.edu/sata/ | 22:52 |
| kanzure__ | Narsi is meeting with me tomorrow. | 23:03 |
| kanzure__ | I've underestimated the bioreactor project. | 23:19 |
| kanzure__ | Substantial funding. | 23:20 |
| kanzure__ | As in "oh, you need to buy a $100,000 centrifuge? No problem. I'll have it for you tomorrow." | 23:20 |
| PeerInfinity | hi :) | 23:33 |
| kanzure__ | Hey PeerInfinity | 23:34 |
| kanzure__ | Dr. Campbell might be writing a few words for Michel soon. | 23:37 |
| kanzure__ | Hey ybit. | 23:54 |
| ybit | hey kanzure__ | 23:54 |
| kanzure__ | Are you back in action? | 23:55 |
| ybit | not really, just using an external keyboard right now. Narrowed the problem of my server down to either a bad processor or motherboard, narrowed the problem of my laptop to a bad graphics card. | 23:57 |
| ybit | the laptop is so old, i might as well buy another one for what it would costs to repair it. i'm going to wait for another month and see if i can find someone who is willing to lend me an athlon xp or ur duron processor | 23:59 |
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