2008-11-07.log

--- Day changed Fri Nov 07 2008
nshgay00:31
nshnature doesn't give subscribers access to articles prior to 199700:32
nsh:-/00:32
fennwhy do you say that?00:33
nsh"Personal subscribers to Nature can view articles published from 1997 to the current issue."00:33
fenni think we would have heard kanzure whining if it were so00:33
nshhttp://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v361/n6409/pdf/361212b0.pdf 00:34
nshyeah00:34
kanzure_xp_prg: I was the one who linked you to celldesigner.org. Get back to work.03:03
kanzure_UtopiahGHML: I haven't noticed/checked. Hod Lipson tomorrow though.03:03
kanzure_fenn: I'm not a "personal subscriber". Institutional.03:04
kanzure_GraphSynth compiles on linux under monodevelop.03:06
kanzure_It compiled on the first try too.03:06
gene_hey Kanzure want any ultrasonic transducers?03:24
kanzure_Any?03:25
kanzure_Uh, sure.03:25
gene_yeah03:28
gene_how many do you want03:28
gene_I have like 20 something03:29
kanzure_Where?03:29
gene_at my house03:29
kanzure_Your dorm?03:29
gene_no03:29
kanzure_I'll take some, that's fine.03:29
gene_so what does it take to do transcrainial or transdermal nerve stimulation with ultrasound03:30
gene_I hear you can induce feelings in hands with ultrasound03:31
kanzure_600 to 700 megahertz at 0.5 to 1 watts03:31
gene_hmmm...03:31
gene_what about 24khz03:32
kanzure_No.03:32
kanzure_http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Ultrasound_brain.pdf03:32
kanzure_Oops03:32
kanzure_Excuse me.03:32
kanzure_600 to 700 kilohertz.03:32
kanzure_0.6 to 0.7 MHz. 03:32
gene_dang03:33
kanzure_Rather important difference.03:33
gene_the transducers I have are rated for 24 khz03:33
gene_http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G95103:33
gene_that's the transducer I have03:34
kanzure_Piezo tweets should work.03:34
gene_ok03:34
gene_so now03:35
gene_the question is how do we set up all these piezos to stimulate a specific location in the brain03:35
gene_or nerve03:35
kanzure_One of the papers in the neuro dir show something about ways to calculate the applied shape of the ultrasound's influencing area.03:36
kanzure_It follows some inverse square law of course, so it might just be a 3D inverse square thingy.03:36
gene_you also have to take into account refraction03:37
kanzure_I've been seeing numbers from 5 to 10 mm of depth penetration into the skull.03:37
kanzure_Hand stimulation would be a good first step though.03:37
gene_ok03:37
gene_specificity?03:37
kanzure_Imagine a cone.03:38
gene_as in could you stimulate specific spots03:38
gene_that's why you need to take index of refraction into account03:38
kanzure_Sort of. You can stimulate a conal region, so the deeper regions will get less stimulation than the surface of the brain for instance.03:38
gene_so you can get more specific03:38
kanzure_This was only with one transducer/speakerpiezo though, with multiple trajectories you might get fancy.03:39
gene_yeah03:39
gene_I'm thinking a phased array03:39
gene_possibly with adaptive optics or something03:39
kanzure_More important is some cheap way to test whether or not you're generating your ultrasound. One method is a dead frog. But if a piezo can handle going from 10 Hz to 700 MHz, then just auditory testing can be done.03:40
gene_uh03:40
gene_that's fairly easy03:40
gene_you use an oscilloscopte03:40
gene_or a microphone03:41
kanzure_Do you want to buy me an oscilloscope?03:41
gene_I have one03:41
gene_at my house03:41
kanzure_Do you want to give me an oscilloscope?03:41
gene_maybe03:41
gene_the labs here have them03:41
kanzure_It's not quite walk-in.03:41
gene_don't they have walk in soldering labs?03:42
kanzure_For the EE/CS/CE students, yeah.03:42
kanzure_RAS probably has something though.03:42
gene_then make friends with an EE student03:42
gene_that's what I was about to say03:42
gene_but we don't have anything designed yet03:43
kanzure_Bullshit.03:43
kanzure_Did you see all of the circuits in the directories?03:44
kanzure_I guess I might not have those there, maybe it's on the ME servers.03:44
gene_damn03:46
gene_so all you need is a frequency generator and a transducer?03:46
gene_heck03:46
gene_you might be able to use a computer and some earbuds for that03:46
kanzure_Maybe a few resistors and capacitors that all of the circuits include.03:46
kanzure_I'm not sure LTP or RS232 can do 700 megahertz.03:47
gene_So03:48
fennnot even close03:48
gene_I read someone that ultrasound can be used for tactile stimulation03:48
gene_somewhere03:48
kanzure_gene_: Ultrasound_brain.pdf03:48
kanzure_It has a reference to hand-tactile-ultrasound stimulation.03:48
gene_that be it03:48
gene_so how would we make a tactile display?03:50
* kanzure_ loads up his bookmarks.03:50
fennelectrorheological fluid03:51
gene_damn03:51
gene_I've thought of that too03:51
kanzure_Ed Boyden was making a tactile display for tongues.03:52
gene_yeah03:52
gene_but can you feel temperature with it?03:52
kanzure_When he called me he mentioned some godly-high-up-there resolution that I didn't believe.03:52
gene_no03:52
gene_I'll believe it03:52
gene_the display is a bunch of electrodes03:53
gene_it has no moving parts03:53
kanzure_Unless you can read 1024-dot brail with your tongue, I don't see that going anywhere fast.03:53
fennapparently it can be used as a sort of crude vision substitute03:53
kanzure_Tongue?03:54
fennthere are similar interfaces for face/scalp03:54
gene_you don't see it going anywhere fast?03:54
gene_it works great if your blind03:54
kanzure_*cough*03:54
fennwhen i read about it they were using the interface to show balance information, for people with damaged cochlea03:54
gene_no really03:54
gene_well enough to avoid things and see what things are to some degree03:55
kanzure_I don't recall the exact setup, and if it was just dry electrodes then even more; I do remember reading something about smaller stimulation devices for the tongue or something, but anyway03:55
gene_it's just electrodes03:55
fenni'm more interested in "surround sound" "display" technology, for real-time grokking of sonar and radar data03:56
kanzure-_"You're not autistic; you don't even have Asperger's. You wish you did, it would exempt you from the rules, give you freedom, absolve you of responsibility, let you date 17-yr-olds. But most important it would mean that you're not just a jerk."03:57
kanzure-_Yay House.03:57
kanzure_What would real-time grokking grok like?03:57
kanzure_I mean, of sonar.03:58
gene_syntax error03:58
gene_hmmm....03:59
gene_I wonder03:59
gene_could one use ultrasound to mess with the proprioception sense?03:59
* kanzure_ forgot to load up the bookmarks03:59
kanzure_I have some links on this left over from Superkuh.03:59
kanzure-_http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~jmp/neurocc/theme3.html04:03
kanzure-_http://www.visualprosthesis.com/sensub.htm04:03
kanzure-_http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:IWehRGzP9kkJ:www.physiology.wisc.edu/neuro524/somatosensory02.htm+dermatome+maps+fine+touch&hl=en&ie=UTF-804:03
kanzure-_http://www2.umdnj.edu/~paneuweb/spincrd.htm04:03
kanzure-_http://www.lclark.edu/~reiness/neurobiology/Lectures/lecture18.htm04:03
kanzure-_http://www.google.com/search?q=Meissner+corpuscle+density+map&sourceid=opera&num=50&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-804:03
kanzure-_http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=nerve+growth+density+in+fatty+tissues&btnG=Search04:03
kanzure-_http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Penfield+map+sensory+cortex&btnG=Search04:03
kanzure-_http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Penfield+map+sensory+cortex+homunculus&btnG=Search04:03
kanzure-_http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=skin+touch+%22receptor+field%22+size+variations&btnG=Search04:04
kanzure-_http://www.google.com/search?q=tactile+map+of+the+brain+sensory+cortex&sourceid=opera&num=50&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-804:04
kanzure-_http://www.google.com/search?q=tactile+resolution+body+parts&sourceid=opera&num=50&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-804:04
kanzure-_http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=tactile+resolution+dermatome&btnG=Search04:04
kanzure-_http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=tactile+resolution+with+increasing+skin+area+and+static+brain+volume&btnG=Search04:04
kanzure-_http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=tactile+skin+finger+pad+drug+increase&btnG=Search04:04
kanzure-_http://www.biomedical-engineering-online.com/content/2/1/604:05
kanzure-_http://www.zelscope.com/features.html 10 Hz to 20 kHz + software for windows.04:07
nsh-YAYLINKS04:12
kanzure_Rawr04:12
kanzure_nsh-: How's the foot?04:14
nsh-mostly harmless04:14
nsh-back to the lab tomorrow04:14
nsh-sick leave ends04:14
nsh-i say tomorrow04:14
nsh-i mean today04:14
nsh-it's 6:14am04:14
kanzure_Michel's asking me for some information on open source space developments04:17
kanzure_Blargh. Time for another linkdump?04:17
fennyou should write a script that filters out 404's from your linkdumps04:25
kanzure_Huh, I should write a bot to linkdump to.04:26
kanzure-_http://heybryan.org/bookmarks/bookmarks-old2//Space/Spacecraft%20design/index.html#32.1004:31
ybitit seems my joke went nowhere04:46
ybit[22:40] <ybit> fenn, i guess its just me and you in a room, all alone... together04:46
ybit[22:40] <ybit> don't even think about it ;)04:46
ybitwhen it seems i may have been the only one in this room or not04:47
* ybit pats himself on the back04:47
kanzure_You and fenn were the only ones that split.04:47
ybitoh04:48
ybitopenmoney.org -- not new, just wanting comments from anyone who has thought about it.04:49
kanzure_Rawr money04:49
ybitopenmoney.info04:49
gene_sudo apt get money?04:50
kanzure_while 1 sudo apt get money <-- your system makes no sense.04:50
kanzure_Just apt-get everything that you need, why do money?04:50
gene_sudo apt get galaxy04:51
kanzure_I'd rather have the filaments.04:51
gene_heh04:51
gene_what about cosmic strings04:52
gene_those are fun too04:52
kanzure_Meh.04:52
kanzure_Saw one of those in Benford's books once.04:52
gene_some quarkonium would be fun to04:52
ybiti'm guessing it makes sense sense while the majority of machines are open until such a thing as drexler's molecular assembler causes zero-point competition04:52
gene_it's a PERFECT mirror04:52
kanzure_ybit: What?04:53
kanzure_ybit: majority of machines are open ? huh?04:53
nsh-make sense?04:53
ybituntil we can live self-sufficiently, such a currency makes sense04:54
kanzure_No it doesn't.04:54
kanzure_Did you see my line about tenure the other day?04:54
ybitsuch an infrastructure allowing various currencies*... since open money isn't a currency according to michael linton04:54
ybitkanzure_, nope04:55
gene_uh04:55
kanzure_ybit: The financial infrastructure can be mimiced pretty effortlessly, but that's another topic.04:55
ybitwhich financial infrastructure?04:55
kanzure_ybit: I was talking about the idea of growing meat in tanks with a defined rate and feeding capacity to give people "tenure" for living.04:55
gene_on meat growing04:56
kanzure_ybit: Financial exchange protocols, RSS for stock quote updates, I mean this stuff isn't complex.04:56
gene_how do you feed teh meats04:56
kanzure_http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Meat_on_a_stick has my notes, gene_ 04:56
ybitkanzure_ that's not what open money is04:56
kanzure_I haven't looked at it in a few months.04:56
gene_artificial stomach04:57
kanzure_ybit: I know, you're giong to say wuffles or tuffles or something else04:57
kanzure_gene_: No, I wasn't thinking of an immune system or digestive system.04:57
kanzure_It would have been straight up with minimal separation processes on the inputs.04:57
gene_or more importantly how do you get a circulatory system up and running?04:57
kanzure_Thin sheets.04:57
ybitsee this page for what open money can do: http://openmoney.info/phronesis/index.html04:58
gene_thin sheets of meat don't taste so well04:58
kanzure_What the hell do I care?04:58
ybitwho is that directed to?04:58
kanzure_taste.04:59
gene_maybe you could process it into something like chicken nuggets04:59
gene_or burgers04:59
kanzure_If you require the tongue you're doing it wrong.04:59
kanzure_IVF would be more interesting.04:59
kanzure_Baby formulas are well defined.05:00
gene_you know05:00
ybiti don't know many people willing to trade 5 chicken wings for a new laptop05:00
kanzure_ybit: Trade?05:00
ybiti need details05:00
kanzure_Didn't I beat the trade crap into you a few weeks ago? heh'05:00
kanzure_*out of you05:01
ybit:P05:01
gene_ this might be feasible, did you hear what the russians did with a bioreactor?05:01
kanzure_That's not very descriptive, gene_ .05:01
gene_in soviet russia, they built a bioreactor that grew monkey kidney cells on plastic beads05:02
gene_then they infected them with smallpox05:02
gene_and made tonnages of pure smallpox05:02
gene_tonnages05:02
gene_of smallpox05:02
gene_now if they had only made something more useful05:05
kanzure_Tissue cultures can be easily infected, so it requires some relatively sterile environments.05:05
fennkanzure_: your obsessions with growing meat in tanks is quite amusing to a vegan :)05:05
kanzure_There's some good tutorials on the internet for setting up a myco lab on your own though.05:05
gene_yeah05:05
gene_they infected them on purpose05:06
kanzure_fenn: good luck with your surface area woes05:06
kanzure_gene_: No, that's not what I'm talking about.05:06
fennfungus is much easier to grow, more efficient, can feed on a much wider variety of substrates05:06
kanzure_gene_: Tissue cultures, even in labs, are esy to knock dead because of viral and bacterial infections, even here at UT.05:06
fennand it tastes better..05:06
kanzure_Students make a small mistake and <poof> a ring develops around the culture.05:07
gene_orly?05:07
kanzure_fenn: Fungus tastes better?05:07
gene_you might be a bit biased thre05:07
* fenn shrugs05:07
kanzure_fenn: The plants or the fungus?05:07
fenni've never had tissuefurkey05:07
fennsorry that was an obscure referenec05:08
kanzure_Anyway, with the whole vegan thing, the surface area issue seems to be the biggest problem for growing greens05:08
fennalgae grows pretty dense dont you think?05:08
kanzure_High density myocytes woul--05:08
kanzure_well, yes.05:08
kanzure_But it also has the surface area problem unless you want to stream fiber optic lines into it or something. Hrm.05:09
fenni mean you dont have to use direct sunlight any more than you'd put your tissue culture out to pasture05:09
fennred LED's work just fine05:09
gene_nuclear power05:09
fennthough currently sodium vapor lamps are the highest efficiency lighting method05:09
fennor was it fluorescent? hmm05:10
gene_what about sulfur lamps?05:10
gene_aren't those more efficient?05:10
fennah that's interesting, did they get past the vapor ware stage? haha05:10
gene_yeah05:10
gene_they did05:11
gene_it's just that no one needs to buy light in bulk05:11
fennoh well, there is this huge nuclear furnace blazing overhead after all05:11
fennmight as well use it05:11
kanzure_Linkdump to orbital algae farms05:12
gene_heh05:12
kanzure_http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Orbital_algae_farms05:12
kanzure_or something05:12
gene_they were talking about that in the 50s05:12
fennkanzure_: i hope you've taken into account the fact that a gallon of gasoline in orbit contains more kinetic energy than chemical energy05:12
kanzure_Based off of gas laws?05:13
fennearth orbital mechanics05:13
kanzure_And the nutritional supply problem still hasn't been entirely solved, even if you have biomining of moonrock/asteroid-rock.05:13
gene_http://davidszondy.com/future/farm/space_farm.htm05:13
kanzure_fenn: Orbital motion?05:13
fennit's traveling at mach 3005:13
fennKE = 0.5mv^205:14
kanzure_Did I say orbital? 05:14
kanzure_But anyway. Nutrition/inputs.05:14
fenn"orbital algae farms" made me think it was orbital, but whatever05:14
gene_inputs to what>05:14
kanzure_Nutritional inputs to the farming. 05:14
kanzure_Algae and bacterium do not grow in a vacuum :)05:15
gene_farming what?05:17
kanzure_..05:17
gene_hmmm...05:17
* fenn mumbles something about sterling engines and hydrolysis05:18
gene_bacteria can grow in a vacuum05:18
kanzure_That's not what I mean.05:18
kanzure_I refer to vacuums in the sense of contexts.05:18
kanzure_Particularly because I was talking about nutrition.05:19
gene_ok05:19
gene_I am too confused right now bye05:19
fennhmm or that AMETEC no-moving-parts thermal->electricity conversion would work well in orbit05:20
fennhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkali-metal_thermal_to_electric_converter05:21
kanzure_Argh. Where'd my copy of Sutton go?05:22
kanzure_Rocketry book.05:22
gene_http://davidszondy.com/future/Living/synthetic_food.htm05:31
gene_why even grow meat?05:31
kanzure_Were you not listening to fenn?05:32
kanzure_or me for that matter re: IVF I guess, but that was a different context05:32
gene_dang05:36
gene_http://davidszondy.com/future/Living/in_vitrio.htm05:36
gene_guess what?06:47
gene_http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=a.FUkzJc0iWw&refer=home06:47
gene_ep might have just got owned06:48
fennduh.. this is why you run controls. not news07:08
fennglass affects proteins also, that's why you rinse it with BSA solution before doing anything with low concentrations07:09
kanzure_http://asc2008.com/ "Transformational Army Science Conference"12:37
kanzure_They're including Kurzweil? wtf?12:37
* kanzure_ would like to be "Dr. John Parmentola"12:38
kanzure_Huh. Albus is included in the lineup. He's still alive? Why isn't he replying to my emails?12:42
kanzure_"Toward Three Dimensional Circuits Formed by Molten-alloy Driven Self-Assembly"12:43
kanzure_"Development of a portable DNA sensor system" - J. J. Sumner, P. Freudenthal @ Nanex, Meinhart, Plaxco, some people at Santa Barbara, ..12:47
UtopiahGHMLI know it's like that but still seing things like ASC2008 written down always give me a shiver...13:34
UtopiahGHMLkanzure_: you think Kurzweil shouldn't go there?13:38
UtopiahGHMLIf you like animes, pretty straight yet effective recommendation engine : http://anime.antialiased.net/15:33
bkero:/  Lain and Eva aren't in the top rated first page15:38
fennUtopiahGHML: gits-sac isn't a 10 :(15:38
bkeroIt seemed to confirm what I originally suspected--I hate most anime.15:40
bkeroDeath Note was pretty good, Bebop was fucking excellent.  Gurren Laggan?  Er, no.15:40
UtopiahGHMLbkero / fenn : I guess being able to select a subset of the population could help but I don't see this option16:16
fennyou could map the users onto an x-y plane and then circle a group16:18
fenni wonder how they make the comparison/prediction16:18
fennoh, btw what i meant was that gits-sac didnt deserve a 10 (i was looking at your ratings)16:20
UtopiahGHMLcare for a little explanation or prefer to stick with un-argumentrary arbitrary judgement? ;)16:21
fennwell i just felt like it didn't really go anywhere16:21
UtopiahGHMLI think I like GITS generally because it provide some aesthetic affordances to things that interest me a lot (GUI, HUD, AI, IA, Collaborative Env., virtual reality, biotech, HMI, ...) so that might create a bias regarding the storyline itself.16:25
bkeroI'm a Lain/Eva person myself. :)16:30
UtopiahGHMLwe should code an anime somewhow :P16:31
fennlolcode16:34
UtopiahGHMLyes, generate it16:34
fenndesu desu desu16:34
UtopiahGHMLthe game would be to not be able to edit it, a bit like in the spirit of demos16:35
fennyes, algorithmically generated16:35
fennlike "AARON" i think it was, the "AI painter"16:35
bkeroHave you guys seen 'love'?16:36
bkeroIt's a procedurally generated landscape.  The results are amazing.16:36
bkeroSadly, the shithead won't opensource it.16:36
UtopiahGHMLbkero: not "love" particularly but it's a common technique so I can imagine the result16:36
UtopiahGHMLbut yes, pretty impressive results16:36
bkeroUtopiahGHML: http://kotaku.com/360715/love-is-a-procedurally+generated-mmo 16:37
ppkhowdy16:37
ppkany of you guys know how many sequential base pairs endy is aiming for, in the short term, in 'DNA printers'?16:38
fennUtopiahGHML: what is he trying to do?16:39
fenner, bkero 16:39
* fenn sulks16:39
fenni mean, he's not selling it, he's not open sourcing it, so WTF16:39
bkeroI dunno16:39
bkeroJerking himself off?16:40
fennmaybe he should write a paper and submit to siggraph :)16:40
bkeroMaybe I should to to his house and threaten to kill his dog if he doesn't open source it.16:41
fennwhat i dont understand is why open source MMO-ish stuff sucks so bad16:41
UtopiahGHMLbkero: can't you hack his universe from the inside?16:42
UtopiahGHML(a la Hack//SIGN maybe ;)16:42
bkeroDunno, I stopped watching that show after an episode and a half. :P16:43
UtopiahGHMLwell, unfortunately like most animes out of 24 episodes 4 max. carry the real core, the idea16:43
UtopiahGHMLthe rest is... I dunno... waiting :/16:43
fennyeah 26 episodes, watch 1, 25, 2616:44
UtopiahGHMLaround that yep :)16:44
bkeroSounds silly16:44
UtopiahGHMLit's like a super slow warmup :|16:44
UtopiahGHML"Alright now, stop the introduction, give me content, we are at episode 10!" :(16:44
bkeroIt's Reboot + a level 1 D&D game16:45
bkero"aventure"16:45
bkero*adventure16:45
fenn"love"?16:45
ppkanybody have that synthetic biology screw standardization spiel handy?16:45
ppkSuch is a shitload of S'16:45
fennscrew standardization? i hope you refer to making an analogy with bolt thread standardization16:46
ppkyeah16:46
fennah. in that case i have no idea16:46
fennit's more like electronic components than nuts and bolts16:47
ppk./whine, i need to be a synthetic biology apologist16:47
ppktrue, but I think the analogy is good16:47
ppkfor demonstration purposes16:48
UtopiahGHMLwhen do you think we'll have API to administrations? like an API to build companies, manage the paperwork thanks to code calls16:52
ppkhm, what's the difference between modularity and standardization16:53
fennstandardization means independent groups can work on different versions of the same thing and know they will work together16:56
fennmodularity just means it can be broken into different pieces fairly easily16:56
ppkcool, thanks16:56
fennso, HTML is standard, and firefox is modular (sorta)16:57
fennand HTML/CSS is modular and standard16:58
fennbkero: from his bloggish (news.quelsolaar.com) it sounds like he has low self esteem/doesnt want to herd cats, and that's why he's not open sourcing it17:06
bkeroThat's a pretty lame excuse.17:16
fennhttp://media.rockpapershotgun.com/eskil.flv  <- preview video of 'love'17:19
fennthis is kinda what i wanted to do with "Smirf"17:19
fenn(not that anyone cares)17:20
fenni always wanted a whole world like a MUD to run around in with the characters from "bushido blade" from playstation.. no hitpoints or any of that crap, if you chop someone's neck with a sword they die17:22
fennscreenshots don't really do bushido blade justice17:23
bkerolol17:35
fennweird. the memes are stirring: http://news.quelsolaar.com/##post2717:52
bkerofenn: Will you talk to this asshole and tell him to open it?17:57
fennhaha what should i say?17:58
bkeroUh17:58
bkeroGive us your code, you don't have to herd cats17:59
bkeroWe'll establish a project for it, you can be grand poobah17:59
fenni really think it's more valuable as a VR landscape than as a "game"18:00
fennto relieve the dreariness of SL and clones18:00
UtopiahGHMLa while ago (several years) there was a website where you could share your list of favorite movies, it was also able to find similar lists from other people, anybody remembers it?18:04
UtopiahGHMLmaybe it doesn't exist anymore but Id like to try eventually using web.archive.org18:05
UtopiahGHML(it was a big and simple website so I guess it has been archived)18:05
bkeroI wouldn't really make a game out of it18:06
bkeroWell,18:06
bkeroI'd just use it to walk around and see what it makes18:07
fennyou could use the game grammar to put together artifacts from SKDB parts18:08
fenni suppose any game engine could do that, but procedurally generating an entire industrial ecology based on the landscape would be sweet18:09
UtopiahGHML(instead of some crapy spore)18:11
bkeroRun a giant game of life on it. :P18:15
fennwell spore is just a game, and as such it has a sort of doctor-seuss magical aspect to it18:15
fennand there is no multiplayer spore18:15
bkeroEr, there is.18:16
UtopiahGHMLbkero: have you seen "The 13th Floor"?18:16
fennmuch of the benefit would be that you could demonstrate your project to others in real time18:16
fennbkero: not just content sharing. more like SL or a MUD18:17
bkeroIs Spore multiplayer? An MMORPG?18:17
bkeroThe short answer: No. Will Wright describes Spore's on-line feature as Asyncronous Sharing. Spore is unique in that while it has multiplayer elements involved there will be no direct live contact with other players. Players' created content gets saved to a master server and will be downloaded by the client-software of other players. In this way, a player will interact with the content created by another player in a non-intrusive manner. 18:17
bkeroYea18:17
fennthat's not multiplayer18:17
bkerofenn: chizu and a couple others are working on a distributed MUD that interacts with IRC18:17
bkeroUtopiahGHML: I might have, I don't remember.18:17
fenni'd wager you couldnt tell the difference between player generated content and some random neural net18:17
bkeroWait, I was thinking of 4 Rooms18:17
xp_prghi all!18:17
fenn4 rooms?18:18
bkerofenn: I can if all the player generated content is eight different kinds of goatse, each with a slightly browner shade of asshole.18:18
xp_prgKlowner here?18:18
-!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 18 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 18 normal]18:18
xp_prgI have a special thankyou to suggest18:18
xp_prgwell to give18:18
xp_prgoh wait wrong channel18:19
fennbkero: markov models..18:19
bkerofenn: Talk to mister low self esteem and tell him we want his baby18:19
fennhmm i have a poor record of getting people to open source their projects (0/4 or so)18:19
xp_prgppk you here?!18:19
bkerofenn: Markov chains are amusing.  My friend lotyrin made one, we went in #neuroscience and claimed it passed a turing test.18:19
fennbut i will tell him about my dreams and see what he does18:19
bkerofenn: Start a dialog and tell him the most senior system administrator for the biggest open source lab in the world is interested in his project. :P18:20
fennuh. i wont tell him that.18:20
bkeroAw18:20
fennperhaps cleverly embellish so "the biggest open source lab in the world is interested"18:21
bkeroHow's that embellishing?18:21
fennit implies that OSUOSL has a coherent agenda :)18:21
bkerooh18:21
bkerolol, he's probably not going to get hosted, we'll probably point him to sourceforge18:22
bkero(which would get him hosted with us anyway)18:22
fenn"not going to get hosted"?18:22
* bkero indirectly hosts sourceforge18:22
fenndoes foo.osuosl.org require special holy penguin pee?18:22
kanzure_-Hod Lipson presentation was good18:22
kanzure_-Symbolic regression analysis of various data sets. He's turning more to gait/movement stuffs.18:23
kanzure_-Hidden dynamical nonlinear systems approximation stuff too. (re: the Markov model mention above)18:23
bkerofoo.osuosl.org just requires emailing support@osuosl.org, telling them what your project is, and why you don't fit on sourceforge.18:23
xp_prgkanzure_- want to hear what I did last night man?18:23
kanzure_-bkero: I thought Death Note was good as well.18:24
fennbkero: sourceforge sucks balls, is that a good enough reason?18:24
xp_prgkanzure_- have you seen cell designer?18:24
xp_prgjust curious, do you like that?18:24
bkerofenn: Yea, it does, heh.  That's not our fault though.18:24
kanzure_-re: algorithmically generated anime; did anyone see my algorithmic story generator from 2006?18:24
fennit's money sucking parasites fault most likely18:24
bkerokanzure_-: Have you seen Maddox's Tom Clancy story generator from 2006?18:25
fennso, i'm googling around, and "symbolic regression analysis" still doesnt mean anything to me18:25
kanzure_-UtopiahGHML: APIs for building companies sort of already exists. The problem is that nobody sees value in being able to randomly generate databases for HR departments or whatever.18:25
kanzure_-fenn: Re: games from SKDB stuff. Paul Fernhout wants to make something like that at the moment for Mars simulators.18:26
kanzure_-I was also posting on allegro.cc about that in 2006 or 2007 re: grammars for objects in my MMORPG work.18:27
fennyeah i'm sure it's not just me18:27
kanzure_-So, I was trying to figure out how to solve the combinatorial problems of having to code all of the interactions between all of the thousands of objects, without making a stupid restricted storyline. I was using stuff like nethack dungeon generators and the story generator stuff, but of course it gets hard making all of these N! interactions18:27
xp_prgkanzure_- dude am I invisible?18:28
fenngrammar based generation doesn' need to deal with N! interactions though?18:28
fennand, you can do it in real time, so when you punch old peasant lady, she runs bawling to Lord Modred or whatever18:29
fennyou dont have to precalculate every possible outcome18:29
fennold peasant lady doesnt necessarily know about hobgoblin #4236 in the enchanted forest on the other side of the world18:30
fennbut Lord Modred interacts with the locals and information has a high probability of reaching her18:31
fenngoo18:32
kanzure_-xp_prg: I already told you that I was the one who told you about cell designer.18:41
* kanzure_- puts ODE validator/solvers back on to his todo list.18:41
kanzure_-fenn: It's like regression/fitting except you have a bag of units (sin, cos, +, -) and then you generate something that matches your experimental data points.18:41
kanzure_-fenn: n! is still a problem, yes, of course. 18:42
kanzure_-"problem"18:43
fennso just statistical regression with different basis functions18:43
fennwhy is n! still a problem?18:43
kanzure_-I quoted problem so suggest that we should just get over it18:43
kanzure_-going over the graphs so many times just makes for lots of computational operations18:44
fennmodred doesnt interact with every person in the world, only those in the vicinity, probably divided up with quadtrees somehow18:44
fennso it's more like n(log n)18:44
fenni can never figure out those O thingies18:45
kanzure_-That's not quite what I was talking about. When you're generating the possibilities for a solution to a black box diagram set, I mean.18:45
fennsame thing, dont worry about finding the global optimum18:45
kanzure_-In a game-simulator-thingy, I was talking about all of the different ways that objects should be able ot interact with each other.18:45
kanzure_-"Throw box at peasant"18:45
kanzure_-"ERROR: peasant doesn't recognize box"18:45
kanzure_-or "ERROR: box.throw() or whatever doesn't know how to deal with peasant"18:45
fennthat's why you have class inheritance :(18:45
fennworst case scenario is that peasant is an object an the box bounces off18:46
fennmethods should be designed for the most abstract/generic interface so you get the most use out of them18:47
kanzure_-No argument there.18:47
kanzure_-So the lab here kind of has a grounding problem of its own. Hod prints out his little robots and does physical tests to see if he can get 'better and better movement'. But here we're not quite looking for movement, or "adaptability" really.18:47
fennso, back to automated design, if you divide up the possibility space into quadtrees sufficiently randomly, you can get a fairly global optimum, and then you can refine the design by dividing up the tree by different parameters18:48
fenni guess that's like simulated annealing sorta18:49
kanzure_-right18:49
kanzure_-But right now it's kind of like design-in-a-vacuum. 18:49
fennbecause all we have is vaporware and no content? :)18:49
kanzure_-No, because the question is what to measure results by.18:49
fennoh. yeah, defining requirements is always hard18:50
kanzure_-If we focus too much on one type of optimization problem, that's not quite as general enough. Like cone optimization for rockets.18:50
kanzure_-But on the other hand, I'm the other extreme or something :p18:50
fenni'll leave that up to the users :)18:50
xp_prgkanzure_- why don't like cell designer, why doesn't it fulfill your need to create sbml files just curious?18:50
kanzure_-What's so hard about finishing your work, xp_prg ?18:52
kanzure_-Argh.18:52
xp_prgnothing, I was just curious is all18:52
xp_prgwant to hear what I did yesterday real quick?18:52
kanzure_-Stop asking to ask.18:53
kanzure_-I don't have time to waste like this. Just say it.18:53
xp_prgdude I took the bbf files and converted them into a big BioBricks actionscript class!18:53
kanzure_-fenn: Requirements have to be defined in a way that both the user understands as well as the program that goes off and does the calculations.18:53
kanzure_-So there has to be some sort of shared stuff.18:53
xp_prgnow I can get at biobrick info easily and quickly!18:54
kanzure_-Who cares?18:54
kanzure_-Get your work done ..18:54
xp_prgok :>18:54
kanzure_-(and post the code instead of talking about it)18:54
xp_prgjust curious why don't you like cell designer for your need though?18:55
UtopiahGHMLhow long before the media try to brag about finding a gene of the Internet?19:00
UtopiahGHML"So you have XL8790 thus your are tech-savy."19:00
UtopiahGHML(would be more like "NE1337" I guess)19:01
fennrs14142136: aspie +5 points19:01
fenni wish SL werent so gay..19:03
UtopiahGHMLSecondLife?19:04
fennya19:04
UtopiahGHMLis there a commandline client?19:04
fennno19:04
UtopiahGHMLcan you make an IRC bot walker?19:04
fennyeah19:04
UtopiahGHMLwould that make a kind of commandline client?19:04
fennuh, not really19:05
fennit would suffer the same fate as surfraw19:05
fennbut by "gay" i meant the culture19:05
UtopiahGHMLhave you tried Croquet?19:06
fennnot yet19:06
UtopiahGHMLI think the culture might be slightly more interesting there.19:06
fenni didnt realize there was a community yet19:06
UtopiahGHMLwell Id be curious to you have your opinion on it19:10
UtopiahGHMLgotta go for now, bbye19:10
fennbkero: email sent to eskil steenberg..21:04
* fenn prepares for rejection.. sigh21:05
UtopiahGHMLwhy21:05
fennstory of my life21:05
willPow3rself-fulfilling prophecy21:05
UtopiahGHMLrejetion is the story of your life? tough21:05
fenntell me if you have any better ideas21:06
willPow3rwelcome rejection as a form of constructive criticism and an opportunity for self-betterment?21:06
fennusually i get the "ignore" treatment21:06
willPow3rso its not outright rejection then21:07
fennwell, responding to me would be a sort of implicit validation of my worth as a person21:07
fenns/validation/acknowledgement/21:08
willPow3rso you pretty much have to follow up, then get rejected21:09
UtopiahGHMLwhat about sending menacs?21:09
UtopiahGHMLmenaces21:09
UtopiahGHMLkanzure_- / kanzure_ : regarding social scalability you should study the politicians model, they are IMHO the experts in that art.21:10
UtopiahGHMLbtw http://cdn1.ustream.tv/swf/4/viewer.45.swf?cid=317016 kickass21:11
kanzure_xp_prg: I did not say I did not like the cell designer.23:23
kanzure_Just got back from a nitrogen-CNT talk.23:25
kanzure_Meh.23:25
kanzure_fenn: What are mechanical engineering departments doing with labs anyway? 23:28
kanzure_Half of them look like they service businesses.23:28
kanzure_The other half do routine measurements on materials.23:29
xp_prgkanzure_ but why isn't cell designer adequate for your needs?23:37
UtopiahGHML(for the generated Anima, maye Vocaloid could be used, I just discovered it, surprising)23:38
kanzure_I have many complaints about celldesigner. It's java, for one. That kind of sucks. It's all GUI based, that also kind of sucks. fenn complained about the license at one point. Meh. Just finish the script. You're so close.23:44
xp_prgok just curious23:45
gene_http://www.physorg.com/news145256350.html23:58
gene_HAHAHAHAHA23:58
gene_worst powered exoskeleton ever23:59

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