| --- Day changed Thu Nov 13 2008 | ||
| genehacker | I missed the presentation what did he talk about again? | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure_ | http://unptnt.com/ | 00:01 |
| kanzure_ | but also some other website that I can't remember the name of | 00:02 |
| genehacker | replicators? | 00:02 |
| kanzure_ | No. | 00:02 |
| kanzure_ | prolotopia? prultopia? porotopia? prulatopia? prulatopia was probably it. | 00:02 |
| genehacker | repository of product files ready to print off | 00:02 |
| genehacker | open manufacturing processes? | 00:03 |
| kanzure_ | No, it's a website. Prolutopia or protopia or somesuch. | 00:03 |
| genehacker | that's it? | 00:04 |
| genehacker | just a website you collaborate with people on? | 00:04 |
| * ybit wants to read kanzure's response to paul on om mailing list | 00:06 | |
| genehacker | just a repository for stuff? | 00:06 |
| ybit | concerning licensing | 00:06 |
| genehacker | that's free? | 00:06 |
| kanzure_ | ybit: "Eat it" | 00:06 |
| kanzure_ | ybit: :-/ | 00:06 |
| kanzure_ | genehacker: Well, that's the part that they're doing, and if they think they can get contributors then that's great, SKDB is more like the backend to their system if they want | 00:07 |
| genehacker | so it looks like they'll sell either ads or support for the stuff on the website | 00:08 |
| genehacker | nothing new there | 00:08 |
| kanzure_ | Huh? | 00:08 |
| genehacker | at least on the front of it | 00:08 |
| kanzure_ | Nobody said it will be profitable. | 00:09 |
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| genehacker | so can I see the gear visualizer? | 00:10 |
| kanzure_ | One sec. | 00:10 |
| kanzure_ | Ah, I lost my logs from today. One more sec. | 00:10 |
| genehacker | and what are you currently doing with that NSF funding? | 00:10 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-11-12_glxgears.png | 00:11 |
| kanzure_ | NSF funding? Paycheck. | 00:11 |
| kanzure_ | and that's why we have project money in here now | 00:11 |
| genehacker | what are they paying you for? | 00:11 |
| kanzure_ | My work. | 00:12 |
| genehacker | writing gear code | 00:12 |
| kanzure_ | No, the gear stuff is just one side project. | 00:12 |
| genehacker | So it looks to me like the gear visualizer might not be useful to our reverse engineering project | 00:12 |
| kanzure_ | Why? | 00:13 |
| fenn | what's the big deal with the glxgears screenshot? | 00:13 |
| kanzure_ | dunno, somebody wanted to see it I guess | 00:14 |
| kanzure_ | and was apparently impressed | 00:14 |
| kanzure_ | heh' | 00:14 |
| kanzure_ | "ooh! pretty!" | 00:14 |
| fenn | ooh a demo program! | 00:14 |
| kanzure_ | "I feel like we're doing something productive!" | 00:14 |
| genehacker | oh no bryan | 00:14 |
| genehacker | I wasn't impressed | 00:14 |
| kanzure_ | No, I'm not talking about you | 00:14 |
| genehacker | I knew what you did | 00:14 |
| genehacker | heh | 00:14 |
| fenn | kanzure_: maybe if it were in flash, with an AJAX frontend and SQL server | 00:14 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: You know I hate myself for writing all this stupid AJAX stuff, yes? | 00:15 |
| fenn | why is it called AJAX again? | 00:15 |
| kanzure_ | asynchronous javascript and xml | 00:15 |
| genehacker | unless the software for making the gears can be used to figure out the right combination of gears such that the ammunition dispensing piston and the cartridge advancer move at different times so they don't jam up | 00:16 |
| fenn | "Despite the name, the use of JavaScript, XML, or its asynchronous use is not required." Buzzword Alert! | 00:16 |
| genehacker | then it's pretty much useless to us | 00:16 |
| kanzure_ | genehacker: yeah, Albert's software can do that | 00:16 |
| genehacker | really? | 00:17 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: wtf is it if it's not js/xml/asynchreneity ? | 00:17 |
| kanzure_ | does PHP+flash count? isn't that just php+flash then? | 00:17 |
| genehacker | I explain to you how the cartridge advancer and ammunition dispenser piston work right? | 00:17 |
| kanzure_ | I don't know | 00:18 |
| genehacker | well then | 00:18 |
| genehacker | looks like I might have to send you something | 00:18 |
| fenn | machine gun mechanism is pretty simple and reliable | 00:18 |
| genehacker | this is a machine catapult fenn | 00:18 |
| genehacker | it's a bit different | 00:18 |
| fenn | what's the power source? | 00:19 |
| fenn | i'd be tempted to make a giant mini-mag (paintball gun type) using compressed air | 00:19 |
| genehacker | ideal power source: tamiya gearbox | 00:20 |
| genehacker | power source I am likely to use: hand crank | 00:20 |
| fenn | ever taken apart an airsoft gun? | 00:20 |
| genehacker | no | 00:21 |
| fenn | that's basically a tamiya gearbox | 00:21 |
| genehacker | a tamiya gearbox isn | 00:21 |
| genehacker | a special name for a mechanism | 00:21 |
| genehacker | it's a brand name | 00:21 |
| fenn | yes i know | 00:21 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AEG.gif | 00:22 |
| genehacker | http://www.tamiyausa.com/product/item.php?product-id=70103 | 00:22 |
| genehacker | this is what I mean by tamiya gear box | 00:22 |
| genehacker | holy crap | 00:22 |
| genehacker | that's pretty much my mechanism | 00:23 |
| genehacker | but a bit different | 00:23 |
| genehacker | FACEPALM | 00:23 |
| genehacker | I just reinvented the wheel | 00:23 |
| fenn | congratulations, you are now an engineer | 00:23 |
| genehacker | though | 00:24 |
| genehacker | this is an automated catapult | 00:24 |
| genehacker | meaning it uses an arm to throw projectiles | 00:25 |
| genehacker | it also uses plastic pigs | 00:25 |
| genehacker | which aren't round like balls | 00:26 |
| fenn | that's why you stuff them in short sections of pvc pipe | 00:26 |
| genehacker | which means I can't load them in a hopper and shoot them as easily | 00:26 |
| fenn | hoppers dont work well even for balls | 00:26 |
| genehacker | HAHAHAHAHA PVC pipe | 00:26 |
| genehacker | Fenn, I'm printing this out on a 3d printer | 00:26 |
| fenn | why/ | 00:26 |
| fenn | waste of resin | 00:27 |
| genehacker | because that's what the assignment is | 00:27 |
| fenn | sigh... nevermind | 00:27 |
| genehacker | what 3d printers use resin? | 00:27 |
| fenn | go stick your head in the sand please | 00:27 |
| genehacker | this one uses plastic | 00:27 |
| fenn | FDM? | 00:27 |
| genehacker | yeah | 00:27 |
| kanzure_ | SLS | 00:27 |
| genehacker | nope | 00:27 |
| genehacker | but we might have to use the SLS | 00:28 |
| genehacker | given the FDMs | 00:28 |
| genehacker | current condition | 00:28 |
| fenn | if you're making large numbers of identical plastic pigs, why not do injection moulding? | 00:28 |
| fenn | or blow moulding | 00:28 |
| genehacker | not printing that | 00:28 |
| fenn | you could 3d print a blow mould | 00:29 |
| genehacker | I see no need to | 00:29 |
| fenn | jello mould | 00:30 |
| genehacker | you do have a point there | 00:30 |
| fenn | "made from real pig parts (tm)" | 00:30 |
| genehacker | the printer doesn't have that kind of resolution | 00:31 |
| fenn | oo it would be cool if you could make a pig shaped hotdog | 00:31 |
| genehacker | meat shaped like meat? | 00:31 |
| fenn | you could make a meat/jello slurry and cast it in blow-moulded cellulose wrappers | 00:32 |
| fenn | or whatever the aburage process is called in english | 00:32 |
| genehacker | I don't want to 3d model a pig | 00:33 |
| genehacker | there's no way I could do that | 00:33 |
| fenn | i thought that was the whole point | 00:33 |
| fenn | http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/204391 | 00:35 |
| fenn | $35 pig STL | 00:35 |
| fenn | but i'm sure you can do that | 00:36 |
| fenn | what are rubber duckies made of? | 00:37 |
| genehacker | I could buy 432 plastic pigs for that price | 00:37 |
| genehacker | depends | 00:37 |
| kanzure_ | Hm. Homework or sleep? | 00:38 |
| genehacker | Homework | 00:38 |
| genehacker | sleep is for slackers | 00:38 |
| genehacker | Hmm... | 00:39 |
| kanzure_ | It's weird, I can do allnighters when it interests me, but otherwise it just tires me. | 00:39 |
| kanzure_ | Sleep. | 00:39 |
| * kanzure_ sleeps | 00:39 | |
| genehacker | so you said that software can do phase and stuff? | 00:39 |
| genehacker | phases I mean | 00:40 |
| fenn | what software? | 00:40 |
| genehacker | gear software that kanzure's talking about | 00:40 |
| kanzure_ | What does phase refer to when talking about gears? | 00:42 |
| kanzure_ | Albert Swantner <aswantner@gmail.com> has the source code. Maybe he will send it if you ask really really nicely. | 00:43 |
| genehacker | as I go through a rotation thing A happens over theta degrees | 00:43 |
| genehacker | thing B happens at theta + x degrees | 00:43 |
| bkero | fenn: Did the LOVE guy ever get back to you? | 00:44 |
| genehacker | IE as I turn the crank, the piston goes in and out of the cartridge before the cartridge is advanced | 00:44 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, angle is in this | 00:44 |
| genehacker | could you ask him? | 00:45 |
| kanzure_ | About angles? | 00:45 |
| genehacker | yeah | 00:46 |
| genehacker | if you could | 00:46 |
| kanzure_ | I know that it's in the system. | 00:46 |
| kanzure_ | because it's a requirement for the file format that he and I talked about ;-) | 00:46 |
| genehacker | you might be thinking of teeth angle | 00:46 |
| kanzure_ | No. | 00:46 |
| kanzure_ | No teeth angle information. | 00:46 |
| genehacker | not phase angle | 00:46 |
| genehacker | well it might help me a lot | 00:46 |
| genehacker | I've been doing some calculations and have been getting some weird results | 00:47 |
| genehacker | which means that either my math is wrong | 00:47 |
| genehacker | or that it doesn't work | 00:47 |
| fenn | bkero: no | 00:48 |
| bkero | :( | 00:49 |
| kanzure_ | Does anybody remember that latest game that demoed an ability to go through 4 or 5 dimensions at once? | 00:49 |
| kanzure_ | Something about being able to stretch things through the dimensions and making really cool use of the monitor. | 00:49 |
| kanzure_ | I'd like to see if there's an API for applying that to generalized N dimensional data sets, like my graph permutation tree. | 00:49 |
| fenn | curved spaces? | 00:49 |
| kanzure_ | was that the name of the game? | 00:49 |
| kanzure_ | The name might have had something like 'crystal' in its title. | 00:50 |
| genehacker | dang | 00:50 |
| genehacker | 5 dim game? | 00:51 |
| kanzure_ | It was a space shooter of some sort. | 00:51 |
| kanzure_ | Steve will know. | 00:51 |
| kanzure_ | Which IRC network did I leave Steve on? | 00:51 |
| genehacker | I've been trying to find some 3d glasses so I can try out stereo rendering on my computer | 00:51 |
| fenn | genehacker: you know the polarized glasses + saran wrap trick? | 00:52 |
| genehacker | no | 00:52 |
| genehacker | I need anaglyph glasses | 00:52 |
| genehacker | I do know the trick however | 00:52 |
| genehacker | http://www.geometrygames.org/CurvedSpaces/ | 00:54 |
| genehacker | do you mean this kanzure? | 00:54 |
| fenn | for some reason i think of your nick as being a real name, like "eugene a. hacker" | 00:54 |
| genehacker | crap | 00:54 |
| genehacker | my true identity has been revealed | 00:55 |
| -!- genehacker is now known as gene | 00:55 | |
| -!- gene is now known as anon | 00:55 | |
| fenn | surprised that isnt taken already | 00:56 |
| kanzure_ | watch him be kicked in a few minutes. | 00:56 |
| anon | How did you know my middle name started with an a though? | 00:56 |
| fenn | i'm psychic | 00:57 |
| anon | heh | 00:57 |
| fenn | being psychic is not particularly desirable | 00:58 |
| anon | indeed | 00:59 |
| fenn | you know all sorts of things like "i'm going to miss the train" and then it happens and you're still stuck | 00:59 |
| anon | especially if you know what I am thinking of right now | 00:59 |
| fenn | indeed. | 00:59 |
| kanzure_ | The actlab keeps a kid around by the name of Drake. He finished uni at age 13, and has hung around ever since and is now 18 or 19 or something. They call him their 'resident genius'. So tonight he was talking about some markov models for speech recognition for a game of telephone with robots whispering words to each other, as well as some infrared LED message passing protocols. Not sure how much 'genius' it takes for that, except the uni thing. Dal | 01:00 |
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| kanzure_ | why doesn't irssi split up my messages. | 01:01 |
| anon | Is he the guy that started teh reprap? | 01:02 |
| kanzure_ | No. | 01:02 |
| fenn | gah anon get out of my mind | 01:02 |
| kanzure_ | Brandon started reprap. | 01:02 |
| kanzure_ | Brandon Wiley also did freenet and bittorrent work | 01:02 |
| anon | indeed | 01:02 |
| kanzure_ | maradydd's husband bunked with whoever did bittorrent originally | 01:03 |
| fenn | bram cohen? | 01:03 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, that guy. | 01:03 |
| kanzure_ | Apparently Bram married a superpornstar. | 01:03 |
| * fenn wonders what that means | 01:03 | |
| kanzure_ | quite literally a porn star. | 01:03 |
| kanzure_ | aspied his way into that one. | 01:04 |
| anon | I don't understand how that is possible | 01:04 |
| anon | social engineering? | 01:04 |
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| kanzure_ | Mostly social engineering of himself more than anything else. | 01:05 |
| fenn | i find it highly improbable that this isnt mentioned on wikipedia | 01:06 |
| fenn | http://valleywag.com/5067348/bram-cohens-wife-comes-to-his-defense | 01:08 |
| kanzure_ | Jenna Cohen. There we go. | 01:11 |
| fenn | so i just need to write awful stories and the babes will come looking for me? | 01:18 |
| anon | no you have to aspie | 01:21 |
| fenn | i think generally that's the problem | 01:21 |
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| bkero | Mmm mmm dillo dillo | 02:51 |
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| willPow3r | im installing mapguide opensouce on my linux server | 08:50 |
| kanzure_ | What is it? | 08:50 |
| willPow3r | its for collecting and distributing geospatial data over the web | 08:51 |
| willPow3r | http://www.opengeospatial.org/ | 08:51 |
| kanzure_ | Gah, their 'standards' page. | 08:52 |
| willPow3r | i'm trying to find a complementary copy of autocad map 3d | 08:52 |
| kanzure_ | CityGML sounds worth clicking. | 08:52 |
| kanzure_ | Autocad map 3D, eh? I haven't heard of Autocad doing any mapping stuff. | 08:53 |
| willPow3r | its really just hosting software | 08:53 |
| kanzure_ | Hosting how? | 08:53 |
| kanzure_ | An HTTP server daemon? | 08:53 |
| willPow3r | believe it or not, autodesk made an opensource version | 08:53 |
| willPow3r | yeah | 08:53 |
| willPow3r | apache extensions more or less | 08:53 |
| kanzure_ | Fun stuff. | 08:53 |
| kanzure_ | I'll have to look into that. | 08:53 |
| willPow3r | its like google earth with overlays for collected geographical data | 08:54 |
| kanzure_ | I'm trying to determine where opengeospatial.org is keeping data. | 08:54 |
| willPow3r | the only problem i can find is that most corporations are going to keep that data secret | 08:54 |
| willPow3r | the data they find while searching for petroleum etc. | 08:54 |
| kanzure_ | Right. | 08:54 |
| kanzure_ | There's actually a US govt office for keeping track of that information. | 08:55 |
| kanzure_ | I don't have the link off the top of my head, but I might have something in /books/ including the data set. | 08:55 |
| willPow3r | exactly, noaa etc. keep all that online | 08:55 |
| kanzure_ | It's basically a very poor geographical annotation/markup of major mines and so on | 08:55 |
| kanzure_ | NOAA is it? | 08:55 |
| willPow3r | http://data.geocomm.com/catalog/index.html | 08:55 |
| willPow3r | well, they're only one of the agencies that keeps data like that | 08:55 |
| willPow3r | and, apparently, this geospatial data can be fed into autocad somehow | 08:56 |
| willPow3r | i'm trying to figure that out | 08:56 |
| kanzure_ | Yeah, so what I was originally thinking of doing was to come up with this giant index of material suppliers worldwide, but in a reverse manner | 08:56 |
| kanzure_ | see, the major trading websites keep their 'supply network' behind closed doors even once you register and ask for bids on projects | 08:56 |
| willPow3r | suppliers by material? | 08:56 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, sort of | 08:56 |
| kanzure_ | There's the mindat.org dataset, which tries to do that, then there's my latest matweb.com dataset; | 08:56 |
| kanzure_ | then with the NOAA dataset, I was hoping I could do some cross-reference, | 08:57 |
| kanzure_ | and if there's some locations that aren't in the mindat.org dataset, then feed those into Google Maps and try to figure out what business exists at those geocoords | 08:57 |
| kanzure_ | and then somehow figure out their URL. | 08:57 |
| kanzure_ | (URLs mapped to geographical areas .. blah, what has this world come to.) | 08:57 |
| kanzure_ | Alright, I'm off to calculus. | 08:58 |
| willPow3r | have fun | 08:58 |
| willPow3r | http://66.75.6.181 <-- my opensource mapguide server | 08:59 |
| willPow3r | it works, apparently | 08:59 |
| willPow3r | at least the compiled-from-source apache daemon does | 09:00 |
| willPow3r | hmm. how in the fuck does an oss project rely on an expensive ESRI database server? | 09:10 |
| willPow3r | oh nm. it can use mysql | 09:13 |
| bkero | lol | 10:33 |
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| UtopiahGHML | B citizen only : http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2004/05/292199.jpg | 12:56 |
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| kanzure__ | http://www.math.ucsd.edu/~sbuss/CourseWeb/CSE167_2003F/final/jordan_matthew_gordon/ | 13:13 |
| kanzure__ | It's a Star Wars game they made for a final. :) | 13:18 |
| * kanzure__ was thinking of making an xwing cameo appearance in the gear thingy | 13:18 | |
| UtopiahGHML | http://fr.news.yahoo.com/2/20081113/thl-electrostimulation-du-cerveau-une-re-96993ab.html | 14:27 |
| fenn | ubuntu will be making a ARM Cortex-A8/9 port: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9527593286.html | 14:27 |
| fenn | this will be good for beagleboard | 14:27 |
| fenn | and other mobile computing shenanigans | 14:28 |
| UtopiahGHML | Five-Year Follow-up of Bilateral Stimulation of the Subthalamic Nucleus in Advanced Parkinson's Disease http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/349/20/1925 | 14:32 |
| bkero | Yea | 14:32 |
| bkero | They're expecting an ARM netbook | 14:32 |
| bkero | Which would be fucking awesome | 14:32 |
| bkero | Also, handhelds.org already has an ubuntu arm port :{ | 14:32 |
| bkero | :P | 14:32 |
| UtopiahGHML | http://beagleboard.org/ "ultra-low cost, high performance, low power OMAP3 based platform " | 14:33 |
| UtopiahGHML | (woops didn't see you were actually already mentionning beagleboard :) | 14:38 |
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| bkero | I have a beagle board :) | 14:44 |
| bkero | It's a fun little critter | 14:44 |
| bkero | And it can be powered by USB - badass | 14:45 |
| fenn | bkero: what are you doing with it? | 14:47 |
| bkero | fenn: gentooizing :) | 14:50 |
| bkero | As far as a purpose, I'm not sure yet. | 14:51 |
| fenn | well looks like the $100 laptop is finally here, from hong kong: http://www.jointech.com.hk/jl7100.html | 14:51 |
| bkero | uh | 14:51 |
| fenn | "what" you say, "its not green?" | 14:52 |
| bkero | 64mb ram, 64mb rom, alright | 14:52 |
| fenn | certainly not enough ram, but that seems to be the way these things go for some reason | 14:52 |
| bkero | I wonder how much they would cost without windows XP. | 14:52 |
| fenn | win CE | 14:52 |
| fenn | there's no XP ARM port | 14:53 |
| bkero | Screenshots are XP | 14:53 |
| UtopiahGHML | bkero: have you tried to add a tiny multitouch screen to make a modile device (a la Internet Tablet) | 14:53 |
| * fenn cant tell one grassy knoll from another | 14:53 | |
| bkero | UtopiahGHML: No, I already had a nokia 770 for that | 14:53 |
| bkero | fenn: show me a screenshot of a windows ce grassy knoll | 14:53 |
| bkero | Wait....That's an Eee 701. I owned one | 14:54 |
| UtopiahGHML | bkero: tried the N810 Wimax? | 14:54 |
| bkero | It's white, but that's it | 14:54 |
| bkero | UtopiahGHML: My friend has an N800, used it for a while. He also works for clearwire, which is behind wimax. It's fucking vaporware until you can buy service and hardware. | 14:55 |
| UtopiahGHML | N810 Wimax has ... Wimax and you have some ISP in Moscow and tests in Paris | 14:55 |
| fenn | are you talking about 802.11n? | 14:56 |
| bkero | fenn: That laptop, look at the right side. USB ports, VGA port, SD card port are all in the same spot. The LCD bumpstops are in the same place. Same mouse, same power button | 14:56 |
| bkero | It's an Eee 701 without branding | 14:56 |
| fenn | bkero: they all look like that | 14:56 |
| bkero | No dude, I've owned an Eee 701, and now a Dell Mini Inspiron 9. I know what they all look like | 14:57 |
| bkero | Three of my friends have them, I see them at my house all the time | 14:57 |
| bkero | There is not a single physical difference besides the badge shape on the top | 14:57 |
| UtopiahGHML | bkero: heard any N810 but more "up to date" (kind of old HW now) | 15:00 |
| bkero | You want a newer internet tablet? | 15:01 |
| UtopiahGHML | and open, unlike Archos and such | 15:01 |
| UtopiahGHML | (didn't try them personnaly but I asked in the channel and guys there say it was Linux but still not really that open) | 15:02 |
| bkero | There aren't any | 15:02 |
| UtopiahGHML | :\ | 15:02 |
| bkero | Nokia published the distro they're using, called maemo | 15:02 |
| UtopiahGHML | yep I checked that | 15:02 |
| UtopiahGHML | but it doesn't have real VGA out does it? Id like that too ;) | 15:02 |
| bkero | Just get a small laptop and call it good | 15:03 |
| bkero | Eee 900A's are at best buy for $280 now | 15:03 |
| UtopiahGHML | I have an X31 | 15:03 |
| bkero | N810 is about as good as you're going to get | 15:03 |
| UtopiahGHML | k, thanks | 15:03 |
| bkero | You could get an iPhone and use video out :P | 15:04 |
| UtopiahGHML | not the most open device out there :/ | 15:05 |
| kanzure__ | ADL needs a grad student. | 15:07 |
| fenn | oo oo me me | 15:08 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: Are you serious? | 15:10 |
| fenn | yep | 15:10 |
| kanzure__ | Do you want me to put in a word for you? | 15:10 |
| fenn | uh.. i guess | 15:11 |
| fenn | i want you to help me figure out what is going on in professor/administrator's mind | 15:11 |
| kanzure__ | excuse me? | 15:11 |
| fenn | ok so i'll apply and then when they dont respond you can ask them | 15:12 |
| kanzure__ | btw, what was your SMIRF stuff? How was it supposed to 'improve' anything? was it "wait until you get 10,000 pieces of user feedback"? We're thinking of doing some smybolic regression analysis where we 'co-evolve' a simulator to provide smooth user feedback, because user feedback is too scattered. | 15:12 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: I could walk down the hall. | 15:13 |
| fenn | smooth user feedback? | 15:13 |
| kanzure__ | Imagine user clicking on "hot or not" for 20 times | 15:13 |
| fenn | smirf was basically MMO x CAD x open source | 15:13 |
| kanzure__ | 20 data points is not enough to get a good function going there | 15:13 |
| kanzure__ | but what if you had regression on there | 15:14 |
| kanzure__ | and try to figure out a good function? | 15:14 |
| kanzure__ | Then you have your 'generator' ping back the 'smoothalizer' (instead of directly to the user) | 15:14 |
| fenn | 20 data points isnt enough? | 15:14 |
| kanzure__ | if your graph has 300 nodes, and you've generated 10,000 graphs | 15:14 |
| kanzure__ | 20 clicks of "I hate this, I hate this", just narrows it down to you possibly hating just substitution rules with IDs <list here> .. | 15:15 |
| fenn | hmm | 15:15 |
| kanzure__ | I'm only asking because of SMIRF, not because of the need for a grad student | 15:15 |
| fenn | smirf was born out of the gaping hole in open source cad software | 15:16 |
| fenn | it's not automated design | 15:16 |
| kanzure__ | "challenge the players to enhance the physics simulation" | 15:16 |
| fenn | however, there was supposed to be a sort of "realtime" FEA and physics simulation | 15:16 |
| fenn | so you could play with the design, instead of having a dead static drawing | 15:16 |
| fenn | and it would do stuff in the world, slowly replacing dungeons&dragons style "points" systems with procedural simulations | 15:17 |
| fenn | that's what all the alpha/beta star chaotic orbit is about | 15:17 |
| fenn | so you can look up in the sky and see "magic is loose in the world!" | 15:17 |
| fenn | to borrow a quote from heinlein :) | 15:18 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldo_(short_story) | 15:18 |
| kanzure__ | Hm. Hod talks of an integrated robotic design+manufacture machine. | 15:30 |
| kanzure__ | for "robotic ecologies". | 15:30 |
| kanzure__ | so he uses agency as a means of bridging the gap, that's peculiar. | 15:31 |
| kanzure__ | I think I was talking about this on SL4 once. | 15:31 |
| fenn | agency? | 15:31 |
| kanzure__ | Basically if you have this 'robot' that you are testing in an unknown, unpredictable environment, you wonder what the minimal set of programs you send with the robot/machine into that environment for problem solving. | 15:32 |
| fenn | that doesnt make sense | 15:32 |
| kanzure__ | Something about bounding maximal return on investment or somesuch. | 15:32 |
| kanzure__ | no, it doesn't. | 15:32 |
| fenn | if you dont know what to include you should include as much as possible | 15:32 |
| kanzure__ | This was an email from 2006, so nevermind | 15:32 |
| kanzure__ | I shouldn't talk about things I haven't seen in forever | 15:32 |
| kanzure__ | Anyway, they do "robot ecologies" so that they have agency for context sniffing to figure out what a bette design might be. | 15:33 |
| kanzure__ | *better | 15:33 |
| kanzure__ | (and instead of the sniffing information to go directly back to the GA search tree, it goes back to a simulator; the simulator then remains consistent to the environment, plus or minus weird predictions, so that the GA-of-the-robot-tree can ping the simulator and get back more smooth information to figure out optimal designs) | 15:34 |
| nsh | http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/60/95O56/index.xml?section=topstories | 15:38 |
| nsh | (don't forget, guys, everyone is painfully stupid) | 15:38 |
| * fenn braces for the impact | 15:39 | |
| fenn | yeah, conserved sequences | 15:40 |
| fenn | is this news? | 15:40 |
| kanzure__ | http://3dprintables.org/ | 15:42 |
| nsh | kanzure_, can you access http://scitation.aip.org/getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServlet?filetype=pdf&id=PRLTAO000100000025258103000001&idtype=cvips | 15:49 |
| nsh | (Physical Review Letters) | 15:50 |
| kanzure__ | Hm. An interesting approach would be to just say "how far can we push automated design and of what". That would be fun. It would give us an excuse for the automated design of really big things. | 15:50 |
| nsh | kanzure_? | 15:53 |
| nsh | nm | 15:54 |
| UtopiahGHML | http://www.voltaicsystems.com/bag_generator.shtml so expensive :/ | 15:57 |
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| kanzure__ | "We address the issues of Fully Automated Design (FAD), .." starts one Lipson paper. | 16:02 |
| kanzure__ | " That is why we first focus and develop the | 16:07 |
| kanzure__ | conventional algorithms for conservatively simulating | 16:07 |
| kanzure__ | structures, and then parallelize into agents, rather than | 16:07 |
| kanzure__ | hoping some simple pre-programmed behavior primitives | 16:07 |
| kanzure__ | will scale. | 16:07 |
| kanzure__ | http://dhcp-84-253.me.utexas.edu/lipson.zip | 16:17 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: You'd have to do a phone interview with him probably. | 16:20 |
| kanzure__ | nsh: http://dhcp-84-253.me.utexas.edu/PhysRevLett_100_258103.pdf | 16:22 |
| UtopiahGHML | Subthalamic Nucleus Stimulation in Severe Obsessive.Compulsive Disorder http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/359/20/2121 (that was the article I wanted to share...) | 16:22 |
| kanzure__ | Does it increase OCD? | 16:23 |
| UtopiahGHML | :) | 16:24 |
| UtopiahGHML | Conclusions These preliminary findings suggest that stimulation of the subthalamic nucleus may reduce the symptoms of severe forms of OCD but is associated with a substantial risk of serious adverse events. | 16:24 |
| kanzure__ | Not interested. | 16:25 |
| kanzure__ | Show me what increases OCD and then I'll start to be interested. | 16:25 |
| UtopiahGHML | why increase OCD | 16:25 |
| kanzure__ | It's one of the ways you tweak variables, so that you know that your variable you think you have is really associated with what you're observing. | 16:27 |
| kanzure__ | It becomes very obvious when you shine a laser in your eye. | 16:27 |
| UtopiahGHML | if the technique stimulate to inhibit I guess it could also be used to do the opposite when knowledge on the topic will improve | 16:28 |
| procto | the problem with tweaking the variables in your very perception system | 16:29 |
| procto | is that you can only feel that difference that you mentioned when things are back to "baseline" | 16:30 |
| procto | except you may not necessarily know when you're truly at baseline again, if ever | 16:30 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: re: your question about fab@home; the reason why is because it was an attempt to promote the solid freeform design technique. That was the purpose of the device apparently. | 16:31 |
| fenn | what was my question? | 16:31 |
| kanzure__ | why doesn't he just drop it and go with reprap | 16:36 |
| fenn | the lasercut plexi thing is redundant | 16:39 |
| fenn | reprap would benefit from having new device heads, and they could standardize (gasp) | 16:40 |
| fenn | not to mention it would cost about $2k less | 16:40 |
| kanzure__ | uh oh | 16:49 |
| kanzure__ | "ADL" as in [A]DL (designs of instances of automation) or ADL as in design automation. | 16:49 |
| kanzure__ | Huh, I didn't notice that difference in interpretation originally | 16:50 |
| kanzure__ | but it can be read both ways | 16:50 |
| fenn | derr... what? | 16:53 |
| fenn | automated design means one thing | 16:53 |
| kanzure__ | [automated design] lab = that one thing | 16:53 |
| fenn | why do you add brackets? | 16:54 |
| kanzure__ | [automated] (design lab) = the other one. | 16:54 |
| kanzure__ | A pathetic attempt at emphasis. | 16:54 |
| fenn | its the same thing though | 16:54 |
| kanzure__ | well I guess I am assuming some leeway in the tense, but I'm trying to point out the distinction between just working in a bubble versus designing automations. | 16:54 |
| fenn | second case brings to mind robots typing away at computers for some reason though :) | 16:54 |
| kanzure__ | think of it as a command: "Design automation, lab! do it or else the robots will take over the world." | 16:55 |
| fenn | hrm | 16:55 |
| kanzure__ | see the difference? | 16:55 |
| fenn | i know what you're saying but i dont think the words fit the concept | 16:55 |
| fenn | so how does one go about applying for grad school... | 16:56 |
| kanzure__ | yes they do. "Automated design" can mean both (1) the automation of the design process and (2) the same sense as "Blackened Car Lab" | 16:57 |
| kanzure__ | ugh, Blackened is a bad example .. | 16:57 |
| kanzure__ | Furrowed Eyebrow Lab. | 16:57 |
| fenn | adjective has to apply to both (object of study) and (laboratories) | 16:57 |
| fenn | expensive technology lab | 16:57 |
| kanzure__ | yeah, that's sufficiently amibguous to illustrate the point | 16:58 |
| fenn | huh grad school has tuition? | 17:02 |
| fenn | i thought i was signing up for slave labor | 17:02 |
| kanzure__ | http://www.utexas.edu/business/accounting/pubs/tf_gradsem.pdf | 17:06 |
| kanzure__ | classes. | 17:06 |
| fenn | ah the problem is that "design" is a verb, not a noun | 17:11 |
| fenn | i think its called a gerund | 17:11 |
| kanzure__ | hm? | 17:15 |
| fenn | linguistics | 17:16 |
| kanzure__ | Automated Walking Lab v. what? | 17:16 |
| kanzure__ | I mean, is ADL the 'walking' version? | 17:16 |
| kanzure__ | I've confused myself. | 17:16 |
| fenn | Automated Designing Lab vs Automated Creation Lab | 17:17 |
| fenn | dammit | 17:17 |
| fenn | they can all be used as verbs | 17:17 |
| fenn | Automated Creature Lab | 17:17 |
| fenn | Automated Creating Lab | 17:17 |
| fenn | there. | 17:17 |
| kanzure__ | Automated Designs Lab | 17:18 |
| fenn | that works too | 17:18 |
| kanzure__ | ah, creating. | 17:18 |
| kanzure__ | interesting how that interpretation was resting in the ambiguity of the name. | 17:18 |
| UtopiahGHML | Im watching a documentary called Losers and Winners (2006) on german factory being dissaembled to be re-assembled in China. They directly bring chinese workers in Germany to do so and put numbers on each piece of the factory to build it back in China. I can't even imagine the impact on reprap/fablab in the long run... | 17:19 |
| kanzure__ | There's a company called Matrix Services that does that. | 17:19 |
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| kanzure__ | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Engineering_Expo_2008#.2A.2A_Matrix_Service_Company_FTW | 17:20 |
| UtopiahGHML | I didn't know it reached those levels... | 17:21 |
| kanzure__ | :) | 17:21 |
| kanzure__ | levels? | 17:21 |
| fenn | semi-automated disassembly and reassembly lab :) | 17:22 |
| UtopiahGHML | level of globalization, directly shipping the factory from the west to the cheaper country thanks to their worker traveling on place and rebuilt the whole thing there | 17:22 |
| UtopiahGHML | I thought they would ... I dunno, just make new cheaper one there or sth | 17:22 |
| fenn | yay free trade agreements | 17:22 |
| UtopiahGHML | I didn't really think about it before | 17:23 |
| kanzure__ | so there's a difference between just designing in a vacuum and designing for case studies requiring automation. It's hard to emphasize the difference. | 17:24 |
| kanzure__ | I think that's what the different wording emphasizes at least | 17:24 |
| kanzure__ | maybe my translator is broken | 17:24 |
| fenn | the difference is that automated design can create manually operated equipment | 17:25 |
| kanzure__ | or one-off equipment stuff, yeah. | 17:25 |
| fenn | but automated designs excludes them | 17:25 |
| fenn | one is a process, another is a set of information | 17:26 |
| kanzure__ | It would be cool to use this as an excuse to get companies to let me study their automation. yay trade secrets.. | 17:26 |
| UtopiahGHML | (and thinking about it reprap/fablab produced equipement will be even more prone to piloted automation since the design will be entirely software manipulated, duh I need to think about the effect/consequences a bit more) | 17:26 |
| kanzure__ | ;-) | 17:27 |
| fenn | UtopiahGHML: that hasn't been the case so far | 17:28 |
| fenn | reprap is very labor intensive | 17:28 |
| kanzure__ | theoretically 'flexible manufacturing' could do allow for that to some extent, little cars that have giant robot arms on them moving around to make for some new system or something | 17:29 |
| UtopiahGHML | fenn: well when I see how outdated Ive been regarding relocalization (viewing the documentary) Im starting to reconsiderate the whole process | 17:29 |
| UtopiahGHML | Ill ask my friends who work on those topics in eastern Europe, that's actually what they are doing for car manufacturers | 17:30 |
| UtopiahGHML | (new assembly lines, they don't even use top-notch automation there since labor cost is too low against machines) | 17:30 |
| kanzure__ | That's only because the consultants get hundreds of millions for "look! an industrial robot! future tech! woo-woo-woo" | 17:31 |
| kanzure__ | woo-woo-woo is supposed to mean hand waving I guess | 17:31 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: I missed what you said about the distinction, one being about the process and one being about the information (designs (plural)). | 17:33 |
| kanzure__ | actually 'automated designs lab' doesn't have to mean just those designs that are of automated things, but also automated [designs lab]. design management and such. | 17:33 |
| UtopiahGHML | (btw the doc. is on a coke factory, coke derived from coal) | 17:36 |
| kanzure__ | I suppose this goes back to the other basics I've been meaning to fix anyway, the expression of an adequate design | 17:36 |
| kanzure__ | 'adequacy' in design is a good topic in of itself because machinists are always yelling back up here at the so-called designers about how impossible these schematics are | 17:36 |
| kanzure__ | (not really, but I know they're cursing down there) | 17:37 |
| fenn | well they should be | 17:39 |
| fenn | yelling back up i mean | 17:39 |
| kanzure__ | And of course the determinant of adequacy is (corny "ta-da" here) whether or not the design can be translated into reality. ("it from bit") | 17:39 |
| fenn | not really | 17:40 |
| fenn | if you specify .00001" tolerance on a decorative plaque, that's not an adequate design | 17:40 |
| fenn | it's physically possible to make, but the cost to benefit ratio is just off the scale | 17:41 |
| fenn | theoretically anything is possible | 17:42 |
| UtopiahGHML | is that a theory? | 17:42 |
| fenn | designs coming from an academic setting often have high cost to benefit ratio :\ | 17:42 |
| kanzure__ | uh | 17:43 |
| kanzure__ | translated into reality | 17:43 |
| fenn | example: fab@home vs reprap | 17:44 |
| kanzure__ | huh? | 17:44 |
| fenn | same capabilities, different price | 17:44 |
| kanzure__ | No, you misunderstand me. physically possible as in, "here, I've done it using cheap tools" | 17:44 |
| * kanzure__ hands you something autodesignedthingy | 17:44 | |
| fenn | that's a weird interpretation of physically possible | 17:44 |
| fenn | did you know guys in the 1800's scraped granite plates to within a millionth of an inch, with files and abrasive? | 17:45 |
| kanzure__ | hrm. | 17:45 |
| kanzure__ | but seriously, I meant with available tools, and specifically not ridiculously unavailable machines. | 17:45 |
| kanzure__ | so 'physically possible' is, yes, not an adequate definition | 17:46 |
| fenn | services like ponoko are changing the landscape of "available machinery" | 17:47 |
| kanzure__ | I posted to openmanufacturing earlier about a way to do ponoko, with possibly lower margins if automated cargo loading is done | 17:47 |
| fenn | i'm an autonomy freak though, so renting time on a machine in some indeterminate location somewhere on earth doesn't appeal to me | 17:48 |
| kanzure__ | right. | 17:49 |
| kanzure__ | somebody at dorkbot brought their "forearm-mounted electricity generator". wind-up toy. Was supposed to look like a time machine. Didn't work :( | 17:50 |
| kanzure__ | (the time machine aspect, I mean.) | 17:50 |
| fenn | time machine? | 17:50 |
| fenn | i was just talking about human powered electricity generators last night | 17:50 |
| fenn | a string going from the shoe to a wind up "yank cord" generator on your belt, to provide power for mobile computers | 17:51 |
| fenn | parasitic drag from walking n stuff | 17:51 |
| fenn | this guy in robo club made a compact 12V jiggle generator, embedded in a gandalf-ish walking staff, so it lights up when you hold it a certain way | 17:52 |
| fenn | with built-in ultracaps | 17:52 |
| kanzure__ | http://nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0742791 | 17:55 |
| fenn | i was telling him to build the tech into a carpenter's hammer, for ideal nail-striking illumination | 17:56 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: VC: chalstrom.com | 18:02 |
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| kanzure__ | Okay, I'm about to leave. | 18:11 |
| kanzure__ | fenn: do you still want me to put in the word? you said something about the whole tuition thing. | 18:11 |
| fenn | he will pay for tuition | 18:13 |
| fenn | that's what the grant money is for | 18:13 |
| fenn | should i send an email tonight? | 18:13 |
| fenn | explaining who i am, why i want to work with adl, etc | 18:13 |
| * fenn anxts over how much to write | 18:15 | |
| kanzure__ | yes, but send it to me first. | 18:15 |
| fenn | ok | 18:15 |
| kanzure__ | yeah, that's why you should send it to me first. | 18:15 |
| * kanzure__ leaves | 18:16 | |
| kanzure__ | oh, I also just replied to Dave/unptnt with a bit of a braindump. oops. | 18:16 |
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| kanzure_ | back. | 18:31 |
| fenn | too much pasta, brain starved for oxygen.. | 18:41 |
| kanzure_ | ? | 18:41 |
| bkero | Brains | 19:37 |
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| fenn | what graduate program would ADL be associated with? | 19:47 |
| fenn | i'm guessing either ECE - Manufacturing systems engineering; operations research & industrial eng; or mechanical engineering | 19:49 |
| kanzure_ | Not industrial, as it turns out. | 19:52 |
| kanzure_ | Industrial and operations is upstairs. | 19:52 |
| kanzure_ | Manufacturing systems, hrm. | 19:53 |
| kanzure_ | well, ADL is within the MAD lab, "Manufacturing and Design" | 19:53 |
| kanzure_ | uhm. http://www.me.utexas.edu/ should have something. | 19:53 |
| fenn | Manufacturing Systems Engineering | 19:54 |
| fenn | This area emphasizes the application of computers, information sciences, and information systems to the development of equipment and software systems for manufacturing. | 19:54 |
| fenn | mad lab website looks like it hasnt been touched in 5 years | 19:55 |
| kanzure_ | it's been a decade prolly. | 19:55 |
| kanzure_ | um, mechanical is a safe bet. | 19:55 |
| kanzure_ | I haven't figured out what the MSE stuff is (in terms of people/labs) yet | 19:56 |
| kanzure_ | maybe it's the same people. don't know. | 19:56 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.me.utexas.edu/~bryant/mfg/ | 19:56 |
| kanzure_ | ah, it no longer exists anyway. | 19:57 |
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| fenn | too bad | 19:57 |
| fenn | i wonder if they are going to make me take calculus again | 19:58 |
| kanzure_ | Did you fail it?> | 19:58 |
| fenn | no, but i've forgotten all of it | 19:59 |
| fenn | from sheer disuse | 19:59 |
| kanzure_ | Doesn't sheer require calculus? | 19:59 |
| kanzure_ | or am I thinking of shear? | 19:59 |
| fenn | i'm sure lots of engineering crap requires calculus, but it's totally irrelevant for what i want to do | 19:59 |
| fenn | since i'm not doing engineering per se, more like meta-engineering | 20:00 |
| fenn | and besides, that's what computers are for | 20:00 |
| kanzure_ | the multivariable calc grad/TA-dude basically just uses mathematica most of the time, except when lecturing/teaching/helping evidently. | 20:01 |
| fenn | of course, why would you do it by hand | 20:01 |
| fenn | i dont do long division by hand either | 20:01 |
| kanzure_ | because you're in a class :( | 20:01 |
| kanzure_ | actually I think they have graduate curriculums on the site. | 20:03 |
| fenn | i dont see that anywhere | 20:04 |
| fenn | looks like the other MS's are just plain ME | 20:05 |
| kanzure_ | yes, but there's "subspecializations" thingies. | 20:06 |
| fenn | i dont even want to be a grad student, this is stupid | 20:06 |
| kanzure_ | heh | 20:06 |
| fenn | i just want someone to pay me to work on skdb | 20:06 |
| fenn | how hard is that | 20:06 |
| kanzure_ | if there's a way to be on the payroll without being enrolled as a student, I'd be the first one to sign up | 20:07 |
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| kanzure_ | it's worth investigating. | 20:11 |
| kanzure_ | every lab seems to have their nonstudent person. in Ellington's lab it was Zack, in ACTlab it's just people hanging out, etc. | 20:12 |
| fenn | it would really simplify things and allow me to begin immediately | 20:12 |
| fenn | instead of waiting until.. august? | 20:12 |
| kanzure_ | for what? | 20:12 |
| fenn | i might be dead by august ffs! | 20:12 |
| fenn | for the academic year to start | 20:12 |
| fenn | looks like there is no engineering GRE, yay! | 20:14 |
| kanzure_ | some of the grad students talk about 'quals'. | 20:14 |
| kanzure_ | that might be for phd stuff though | 20:15 |
| fenn | i think that's like finals | 20:15 |
| fenn | ah, quals is required before you start your dissertation (whatever that is) | 20:16 |
| fenn | jesus christ why is everyone talking about the venus project | 20:44 |
| kanzure_ | it's not even that good. | 20:45 |
| kanzure_ | So it was funny today when I showed campbell approppedia | 20:45 |
| kanzure_ | appropedia | 20:45 |
| kanzure_ | and then when we went into his office for a few seconds to check his machine for something, | 20:45 |
| kanzure_ | in the corner it popped up, somebody emailed him "you have to check out appropedia" | 20:45 |
| fenn | whee | 20:45 |
| kanzure_ | he hadn't heard of it before I told him about it | 20:45 |
| fenn | who was it? | 20:45 |
| kanzure_ | I don't know. Didn't catch it. | 20:45 |
| fenn | your tachikoma agent? | 20:46 |
| kanzure_ | No, she was at home watching porn. :( | 20:46 |
| fenn | lazy robots | 20:46 |
| * fenn glares around the room with x-ray-laser-eyes | 20:47 | |
| kanzure_ | ? | 20:47 |
| [Users #hplusroadmap] | 20:47 | |
| [ bkero ] [ drazak] [ kanzure_ ] [ Overand ] [ willPow3r] | 20:47 | |
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| -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 15 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 15 normal] | 20:47 | |
| kanzure_ | GITS ref? | 20:47 |
| fenn | bot-on-bot violence | 20:47 |
| fenn | nevermind | 20:48 |
| fenn | i dont think i can keep up with paul's emails | 20:48 |
| kanzure_ | He may be more of a Markov bot than me. | 20:49 |
| fenn | they're essay-length but unlike eric hunting they're mostly recycled material | 20:49 |
| kanzure_ | He has specific sections in his emails that repeat. | 20:49 |
| kanzure_ | Don't know how he keeps track of the recyclable elements. | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | heheh. | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | It would be fun to write a Paul email imitator app. | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | it would be easy to write a few regexps to extract those recyclables, and then just generate emails based off of input keywords of a message | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | I'm certain this would work. | 20:50 |
| fenn | or you could run a paragraph-length markov bot on his website or a collection of previous posts | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | is that equivalent? | 20:51 |
| fenn | less work, more diversity | 20:51 |
| fenn | unless you mean to use the regexp to keep quotes intact | 20:51 |
| fenn | (he uses lots of quotes) | 20:51 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, I was thinking I'd just look for links | 20:52 |
| kanzure_ | since he usually has quotes nearby | 20:52 |
| fenn | ok that's enough gossip.. perhaps i'll go spend the last of my money on ice cream | 20:52 |
| kanzure_ | last? | 20:52 |
| fenn | borrowed money doesnt count in my book | 20:53 |
| fenn | and i'm having some bank issues so i cant get at it anyway | 20:53 |
| kanzure_ | bank vanish? | 20:53 |
| fenn | they are just being unreasonably slow | 20:53 |
| fenn | i was trying to close my account, but the transfer is taking forever. they'll probably be closed for the weekend by the time it finishes | 20:54 |
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| gene | hey Kanzure want to get into the business of selling GMOs? | 22:27 |
| kanzure_ | Why do you ask? | 22:27 |
| gene | how else would we get money to do research | 22:28 |
| gene | on biohacking | 22:28 |
| kanzure_ | Don't worry about the money. | 22:28 |
| kanzure_ | I have that covered. | 22:28 |
| gene | while at the same time making a useful gene more accessible to the general public | 22:29 |
| gene | oh yeah | 22:29 |
| kanzure_ | I was going to write some inventory software to manage inventories of plasmids in biobrick labs for accessibility. It would allow people to order plasmids. | 22:29 |
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| gene | you aren't for profit | 22:30 |
| gene | from grocery stores? | 22:30 |
| kanzure_ | No, from people who have plasmids. | 22:30 |
| gene | btw, anyway to hide a gene in an organism's genome where it sits unused and easily cleaved with RE's | 22:31 |
| kanzure_ | What do you mean by hide? | 22:31 |
| gene | Easter egg | 22:31 |
| gene | bio easter egg | 22:31 |
| gene | Hmmmm.... | 22:31 |
| kanzure_ | ? | 22:31 |
| kanzure_ | Do you mean not expressed? | 22:31 |
| gene | yup | 22:32 |
| kanzure_ | That's genetic regulatory networks stuff. | 22:32 |
| kanzure_ | Not a matter of where to place it. | 22:32 |
| kanzure_ | So you put something like a lac operon in front of it. | 22:32 |
| kanzure_ | And a few primers and so on. | 22:32 |
| gene | uh huh | 22:32 |
| gene | I'm saying sell a GMO with unexpressed plasmids in it | 22:33 |
| gene | that the FDA won't find | 22:33 |
| gene | so what does it take to modify the avian genome | 22:34 |
| gene | pretty much the same as modding mammalian genome right? | 22:35 |
| kanzure_ | It's just DNA.. | 22:35 |
| drazak | kanzure_: how do you do rapid gel electroporesis? eg. a couple hours from sample+pcr+gel? | 22:35 |
| kanzure_ | Uh? It was always a couple hours. | 22:36 |
| kanzure_ | Are you using some ridiculously lengthy method? | 22:36 |
| fenn | lotsa volts, a fan to cool off the gel | 22:36 |
| gene | what're you trying to do drazak? | 22:36 |
| kanzure_ | crank up teh volts :) | 22:36 |
| fenn | slower gels have better resolution | 22:36 |
| gene | don't you mean current? | 22:36 |
| fenn | same thing | 22:36 |
| fenn | gel is a fixed resistance | 22:36 |
| fenn | you're going after current per unit cross sectional area | 22:37 |
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| drazak | kanzure_: ah ok, I had been given poor info than, sorry | 22:38 |
| kanzure_ | The FDA doesn't sequence genomes. | 22:38 |
| gene | exactly | 22:38 |
| kanzure_ | drazak: Maybe. What source? | 22:38 |
| kanzure_ | gene: So you wouldn't have to hide it. | 22:38 |
| drazak | kanzure_: a teacher :P | 22:38 |
| kanzure_ | drazak: Ah, the worst. | 22:38 |
| kanzure_ | gene: Besides, you could just, you know, avoid the FDA. | 22:38 |
| fenn | you could just keep it in a freezer | 22:39 |
| gene | not if you want to sell it here | 22:39 |
| kanzure_ | Sell it? | 22:39 |
| gene | in the US | 22:39 |
| gene | yeah | 22:39 |
| gene | sell it | 22:39 |
| kanzure_ | If you start selling it, I start replicating it for free | 22:39 |
| gene | yeah | 22:39 |
| gene | I know | 22:39 |
| gene | but investors don't know that | 22:39 |
| fenn | what are you selling exactly? | 22:39 |
| gene | something that could be rendered irreproducible | 22:40 |
| gene | probably | 22:40 |
| fenn | fat chance | 22:40 |
| kanzure_ | ? | 22:40 |
| fenn | RIAA and MPAA failed, with hundreds of millions of $ invested | 22:40 |
| gene | to avoid environmental contamination | 22:40 |
| gene | people will still buy it | 22:40 |
| gene | even if it's free | 22:41 |
| gene | really | 22:41 |
| fenn | so why not sell insurance | 22:41 |
| gene | they sell plants and animals | 22:41 |
| fenn | or newspapers | 22:41 |
| fenn | or linux distro's :) | 22:41 |
| gene | can you distribute useful plasmids via a newspaper? | 22:42 |
| kanzure_ | What do you consider useful to be? | 22:42 |
| fenn | erm uh you're being deliberately obtuse | 22:42 |
| fenn | i'm saying your business plan sucks | 22:42 |
| kanzure_ | yay | 22:42 |
| gene | 1. easy to seperate out | 22:42 |
| gene | 2. useful for gene modification operations( restriction enzymes,heat tolerant polymerases and such) | 22:43 |
| fenn | you can find these plasmids in any bio lab, the problem is not availability but rather artificial restrictions like patents | 22:44 |
| kanzure_ | and MTAs. | 22:44 |
| gene | that's why I want to hide them in the genome of thing I am selling | 22:44 |
| fenn | mail transfer agent? :) | 22:44 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: material transfer agreements. see my recent (~past 2 weeks) rants on inventory for plasmid mailing stuff, software thingies. | 22:44 |
| fenn | rants where? | 22:45 |
| gene | Mechanical Tyrant Agency? | 22:45 |
| fenn | is this like "i promise not to give my lab supplies to terrorists" | 22:45 |
| kanzure_ | Material Transfer Agreements are required by universities before you can send biological agents. | 22:45 |
| kanzure_ | biological agents by mail. | 22:45 |
| fenn | oo e. coli and taq polymerase.. scary | 22:45 |
| kanzure_ | right, it's bullshit stuff. | 22:46 |
| fenn | someone could put e. coli in a bomb and contaminate the water supply! | 22:46 |
| gene | HE HAS POTASSIUM PERCHLORATE HE MUST BE A TERRORIST | 22:46 |
| fenn | or a welder | 22:46 |
| fenn | weldor? | 22:46 |
| fenn | or likes to make his socks really bright white | 22:47 |
| gene | a welder is on gnomegland pecurity's watch list | 22:47 |
| fenn | gnomegland? | 22:48 |
| gene | shh.... | 22:48 |
| gene | you know what I mean | 22:48 |
| gene | don't type it | 22:48 |
| kanzure_ | You're just acting paranoid because you think it's cool to be paranoid though. | 22:48 |
| gene | indeed | 22:49 |
| fenn | most paranoid people are that way | 22:49 |
| kanzure_ | .. | 22:49 |
| fenn | at least the ones that talk about it | 22:49 |
| gene | I USE A 1 GIG ENCRYPTION KEY | 22:49 |
| * fenn mutters something about "security culture" | 22:49 | |
| gene | TRY TO CRACK THAT FEDS! | 22:49 |
| gene | anyway I've considered making potassium perchlorate before | 22:50 |
| fenn | back when i was a terrorist... we had training workshops on how to avoid the fbi, but they were very straightforward and more about knowing the extent of the law than undertaking unreasonable technical solutions | 22:50 |
| gene | I wish I could know my rank on the terror watchlist | 22:51 |
| fenn | you could ask | 22:51 |
| fenn | i think it would be a fun game to play | 22:51 |
| fenn | kinda like "chicken" | 22:51 |
| gene | actually it would be more like an RPG | 22:52 |
| fenn | no, a mixed reality media | 22:52 |
| fenn | crap. whatever that ilovebees thing was called | 22:53 |
| gene | read about how to making bombs increase probability of being terrorist by 10 point | 22:53 |
| gene | hmm... | 22:53 |
| gene | wonder what they look for anyway | 22:53 |
| gene | so how about blowing up the whitehouse | 22:54 |
| gene | you know the inflatable one | 22:54 |
| gene | it's been in it's box ever since I bought it | 22:54 |
| fenn | no no, i live in the whitehouse, you can blow up the shack out back though | 22:55 |
| gene | this topic isn't useful | 22:58 |
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| fenn | fine, be that way | 22:59 |
| kanzure_ | Why does he leave? | 22:59 |
| fenn | ChatZilla | 23:00 |
| kanzure_ | So what? | 23:00 |
| kanzure_ | Oh right, firefox can't be on for more than 20 minutes ;-) | 23:00 |
| fenn | do you think campbell would be interested in this? http://fennetic.net/cadwiki/index.php?FrontPage#vb206cb3 | 23:01 |
| * kanzure_ types in the url .. | 23:02 | |
| kanzure_ | is the anchor important? | 23:02 |
| fenn | it's notes to myself on features i'd want in a cad-ish/skdb-ish application (before i came up with the idea of a technology distribution) | 23:02 |
| fenn | the anchor is "goal oriented flow" | 23:02 |
| fenn | just go to fennetic.net/cadwiki | 23:03 |
| fenn | feel free to read the rest though | 23:04 |
| kanzure_ | user interface and data struct stuff to bottom. | 23:05 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, okay, linking me to that anchor makes more sense. | 23:05 |
| kanzure_ | I'm trying to figure out how to best convey the style that he tends to like. Talking search algorithms is good. | 23:10 |
| kanzure_ | Goals / user preference modeling is supposedly what I'm presently doing, which I guess I can make up some strange connections to goalism | 23:10 |
| fenn | it's not really about goals, that was just sort of a buzzword/placeholder | 23:11 |
| kanzure_ | it's about 'requirements' no? | 23:11 |
| fenn | right | 23:12 |
| fenn | sufficiently vague requirements | 23:12 |
| fenn | not specified to the last detail like in a drafting program | 23:12 |
| fenn | anyway the point is to build all this optimization stuff into the cad program and run the optimizations in the background/on the server automatically, so you dont waste time switching around between tools | 23:14 |
| kanzure_ | right, I'm coding something up like that at the moment. | 23:15 |
| fenn | lisp interpreter has a neat feature where you start typing in a statement and it is already evaluating it, so when you press return the answer comes back instantly | 23:15 |
| fenn | oh well, this is "in the ballpark" at least | 23:16 |
| kanzure_ | sort of. I'm trying to figure you out a home run. | 23:16 |
| kanzure_ | oh, talking about hierarchical bayesian networks/probability would score some points btw. | 23:16 |
| kanzure_ | if you happen to actually know that area :/ | 23:17 |
| fenn | well, not really | 23:17 |
| fenn | i dont see what bayesian networks have to do with process planning? | 23:18 |
| kanzure_ | no biggie, it was just a one-off comment he made to me recently. | 23:18 |
| kanzure_ | me either. | 23:18 |
| fenn | its not like you can just make up data | 23:18 |
| kanzure_ | It's hard for me to figure out the "what's next" for ADL because once you have the giant cad system, and the toolchain from the tree search to the 3D modeling software and so on, that's about it for that sort of toolchain, plus or minus improvements/bugfixes.. | 23:20 |
| fenn | "Generalizations of Bayesian networks that can represent and solve decision problems under uncertainty are called influence diagrams." this sounds vaguely related | 23:20 |
| kanzure_ | huh. | 23:20 |
| fenn | but i think he just has a hard-on for graphs :) | 23:21 |
| kanzure_ | also significant invested time in his codebase. | 23:21 |
| fenn | hm yeah and i dont really get what it's supposed to do | 23:22 |
| kanzure_ | have you played around with it? | 23:22 |
| kanzure_ | graphsynth, I mean. | 23:22 |
| fenn | no | 23:22 |
| fenn | only the design repo stuff | 23:22 |
| kanzure_ | it compiles on linux, but it has some errors, though mostly works. | 23:22 |
| kanzure_ | so what the software does is take the substitution rules, given lefthand sides and righthand sides, and then goes through your given graph and keeps track of the number of different ways that the substitution could be applied, and then executes that replacement | 23:23 |
| fenn | with mono? (linux) | 23:23 |
| kanzure_ | actually the website is rather informative for each of the sections, it just doesn't help to explain the GUI | 23:23 |
| kanzure_ | yeah | 23:23 |
| kanzure_ | monodevelop. | 23:24 |
| kanzure_ | One student has been writing a DLL extension to graphsynth for gear optimization. He has a set of substitution rules that take a user's "requirements" (in the form of a 'function structure' graph) and by various substitutions (+additions sometimes) there's this overall gear system, and then sprinkle in the optimization, and in the end it's a .gxml file that supposedly I'm reading in to glxgears. | 23:25 |
| kanzure_ | there's like four guys in the lab, for what it's worth. | 23:26 |
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| gene | http://burrtools.sourceforge.net/ | 23:28 |
| gene | are you pondering what I am pondering? | 23:28 |
| * fenn grumbles about the lack of a readme | 23:28 | |
| kanzure_ | gene: That's like my supermetal app. | 23:28 |
| gene | what's supermetal? | 23:29 |
| gene | is harder than dragonforce? | 23:29 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-11-02_supermetal_2.png | 23:29 |
| gene | so what does it do? | 23:30 |
| fenn | oh this was on johnny quest (cyberspace version) | 23:30 |
| gene | huh? | 23:31 |
| kanzure_ | Given a set of primitives, allows you to randomly generate shapes and then do cool things with them. Export to 3D file format, for instance. | 23:31 |
| gene | like? | 23:31 |
| kanzure_ | See the screenshot. | 23:31 |
| fenn | they dug up a bunch of smashed pieces of a statue, scanned them in, and then let the computer assemble the 3d models | 23:31 |
| gene | wait a minute really? | 23:32 |
| gene | just like in snow crash? | 23:32 |
| kanzure_ | It's a common scene in investigative TV shows. | 23:32 |
| kanzure_ | "Broken bottle! But it's okay, we can painstakingly reconstruct it and extract fingerprints!" | 23:32 |
| kanzure_ | or in the latest Batman, given sharpnel => reconstruct the original bullet. | 23:33 |
| gene | how does supermetal do that? | 23:33 |
| fenn | these crime scene scenarios are rather close to what we need to do with magical-engineering-app | 23:33 |
| gene | you are pondering what I am pondering then | 23:33 |
| kanzure_ | Supermetal is going in the opposite direction, but you just reverse things around and do collision detection and some quick math for checking whether or not basic constraints are satisfied. | 23:33 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: ? | 23:34 |
| fenn | kanzure_: interfaces | 23:34 |
| fenn | mcmaster catalog = smashed pieces | 23:34 |
| fenn | edges of glass = product specifications | 23:34 |
| gene | so supermetal breaks a part into pieces? | 23:34 |
| fenn | combine them into something useful | 23:34 |
| kanzure_ | gene: No, supermetal assembles from primitives. | 23:34 |
| gene | assembles what? | 23:34 |
| fenn | stuff | 23:35 |
| gene | random stuff? | 23:35 |
| kanzure_ | All stuff. | 23:35 |
| fenn | icosahedrons from the looks of it | 23:35 |
| gene | like? | 23:35 |
| kanzure_ | Say there's N possible primitives. | 23:35 |
| kanzure_ | and P set of points per primitive. | 23:35 |
| kanzure_ | Then you can loop through each one and make the graph. | 23:35 |
| kanzure_ | Now, to rate them, and score the constructions, you do some mathy thingies. Like whether or not you like there to be GIANT GAPING HOLES in the structures. | 23:36 |
| gene | did you make it yourself? | 23:36 |
| fenn | giant gaping holes can be good or bad or not matter | 23:36 |
| kanzure_ | Supermetal? yeah | 23:36 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: that's user-dependento f course. | 23:36 |
| gene | and the gui | 23:36 |
| gene | for it | 23:36 |
| kanzure_ | There is no GUI except the 3D visualization. | 23:36 |
| gene | which is in? | 23:37 |
| kanzure_ | Huh? | 23:37 |
| gene | what? | 23:37 |
| gene | is it in | 23:37 |
| fenn | but kanzure_ how do you generalize the concept of "giant gaping holes", and how many of these descriptors are there? | 23:37 |
| kanzure_ | a computer | 23:37 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: plugins. | 23:37 |
| kanzure_ | plugins for new varchecks etc. | 23:38 |
| fenn | varcheck = what? | 23:38 |
| gene | huh? | 23:38 |
| kanzure_ | distance between points/edges for instance? | 23:38 |
| gene | I have know idea what u r talking about | 23:38 |
| fenn | so varcheck is just a function | 23:38 |
| kanzure_ | What did you think I was talking about? | 23:39 |
| fenn | gene: please limit the drooling idiot abbreviations | 23:39 |
| gene | ok | 23:39 |
| fenn | thanks | 23:39 |
| fenn | kanzure_: would you say this is basically a genetic algorithm? | 23:40 |
| fenn | varcheck ~= fitness function | 23:40 |
| gene | you made a GA kanzure? | 23:41 |
| fenn | unless you mean to calculate every possibility | 23:41 |
| kanzure_ | varcheck =~ scoring function. | 23:41 |
| gene | how does it score it? | 23:41 |
| kanzure_ | The scoring function is not yet implemented because I don't care. | 23:41 |
| kanzure_ | It doesn't because I haven't implemented any of the checks. | 23:41 |
| gene | how do your gene's work | 23:41 |
| fenn | uh oh, did i say a naughty word? | 23:41 |
| kanzure_ | I guess if you wanted to you could check the distance between tips of objects on it. | 23:41 |
| gene | so it's not really a GA? | 23:42 |
| kanzure_ | I didn't say it was a GA. | 23:42 |
| kanzure_ | It could be a GA though if you wanted. | 23:42 |
| kanzure_ | The genes would be the sequence of primitives or whatever. | 23:42 |
| gene | I don't get what it does | 23:42 |
| * fenn feels like this is going nowhere | 23:42 | |
| kanzure_ | There's a set of N primitives; you assemble it by saying primitives #1, 34141, 341, 5, 1, 39, 394 | 23:43 |
| kanzure_ | So the genes for that one would be that list of primitives | 23:43 |
| kanzure_ | It's slightly more involved than that though because I implemented points of tangency | 23:43 |
| gene | what's input what's output? | 23:43 |
| kanzure_ | input: number of 'nodes' of the graph or whatever. | 23:44 |
| kanzure_ | output: 3D object. | 23:44 |
| gene | ok | 23:45 |
| gene | can it convert graphs to real objects | 23:48 |
| gene | like from the ADL? | 23:48 |
| fenn | the design repo doesnt contain any 3d data | 23:49 |
| kanzure_ | Yep. I'd have to write a gxml -> a data format thingy for the app but that's ok. That's just file format conversion stuffs. | 23:49 |
| fenn | so you'd have a bunch of spheres stuck together to represent a camera, i guess | 23:49 |
| kanzure_ | hold on a sec. | 23:50 |
| fenn | unless i'm missing something? | 23:50 |
| kanzure_ | So, the gxml data is the graph stuff. Like those 'CFGs' (component function graphs) that I generated with graphviz | 23:50 |
| kanzure_ | (grxml is the substitution rule stuff) | 23:50 |
| kanzure_ | The design repo, and all of those .repo files, do not contain gxml. :( | 23:50 |
| kanzure_ | They have files within them though, that's why I was so annoyed last month. | 23:50 |
| fenn | gxml describes what? | 23:50 |
| kanzure_ | a graph. | 23:51 |
| fenn | a graph that represents what | 23:51 |
| kanzure_ | It either describes a 'function structure' (black box) or 'CFG' | 23:51 |
| kanzure_ | CFG would be like "axe -> hammer" | 23:51 |
| gene | so how would you make that meat slice gun real? | 23:51 |
| kanzure_ | Hold on. | 23:51 |
| kanzure_ | Some of the .repo files do not have those images, some do, etc. | 23:51 |
| fenn | i'm not interested in images | 23:52 |
| kanzure_ | Some have 'CDD' (ConceptDraw files). Some have 'functionCAD' files. But CDD is proprietary and not easily converted to anything usable, as we know. | 23:52 |
| kanzure_ | Also, the database sucks; there's no way to extract the 'function structure' information about the connectivity. | 23:52 |
| kanzure_ | Specifically, a subfunction of an 'artifact' (which is kinda like in the CFG layer) | 23:52 |
| kanzure_ | points to another artifact; not to a 'port' on that artifact (like what subfunction the other artifact has that is relevant) | 23:52 |
| fenn | unfortunate, that | 23:53 |
| kanzure_ | So you see stuff like "laserpointer -> table" but not that it's the solid interface that matters, or not that it's the laser-pointing part. | 23:53 |
| gene | can't you figure out things like component is wedge, gear, bearing, or plane or such? | 23:53 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, so it's basically somewhat unusable data | 23:53 |
| gene | uh wow | 23:53 |
| kanzure_ | the design repo doesn't contain 3D information, that's correct | 23:53 |
| gene | matlab represents a missile guidance system as a graph | 23:54 |
| gene | and a car as a graph | 23:54 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, electronics is very commonly a graph | 23:54 |
| kanzure_ | yep. | 23:54 |
| fenn | control system, not the actual "how to build it" info | 23:54 |
| kanzure_ | "Function structures" are popular. | 23:54 |
| kanzure_ | right, the 'how to build it' info is something lacking in this stuff. | 23:54 |
| fenn | diagrams (graphs) for control systems is the only way to do it | 23:55 |
| kanzure_ | conversion to gcode and such is one way, but I want the origami assembly folding stuff too.. anyway. | 23:55 |
| kanzure_ | as for the meat slice gun thingy, | 23:55 |
| gene | you know knives are simple machines | 23:55 |
| kanzure_ | It's very easy to make it real *if* the individual parts have 3D representations in the repo | 23:55 |
| gene | the first machines made by man were knives | 23:55 |
| fenn | so are rocks | 23:55 |
| fenn | and sticks | 23:56 |
| kanzure_ | and dung. | 23:56 |
| fenn | and hooting noises | 23:56 |
| kanzure_ | Is it a monkey? | 23:56 |
| * fenn bangs on chest (visual state indicator) | 23:56 | |
| gene | why not use all that ADL stuff to make stone age 3d structures | 23:57 |
| fenn | indeed | 23:57 |
| gene | rome wasn't built in a day | 23:57 |
| fenn | this is why i'm interested in "love" | 23:57 |
| fenn | quelsolaar.com | 23:57 |
| gene | I don't know what you mean | 23:57 |
| gene | meat | 23:57 |
| gene | ok | 23:58 |
| fenn | graph grammars for building primited 3d structures | 23:58 |
| fenn | primitive* | 23:58 |
| fenn | (oh did i mention they're virtual?) | 23:58 |
| fenn | yuck IDE's :) | 23:59 |
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