2008-11-16.log

--- Day changed Sun Nov 16 2008
fenn	wonder why he asked if i own a motorcycle	00:17
kanzure_	maybe he will tell the police that you don't own a helmet.	00:17
fenn	but i have two, and they're full of mouse poop	00:17
kanzure_	uhm.	00:19
kanzure_	Why?	00:19
fenn	because the mice pooped in them	00:20
fenn	algae-bot looks pretty good to me	00:20
kanzure_	I didn't click	00:20
kanzure_	but I remember seeing something once that was this water-surface-thingy	00:20
kanzure_	that harvested algae.	00:21
kanzure_	is this it?	00:21
fenn	looks sorta like a crab	00:21
kanzure_	hm. I remember a typical boat with a giant roller-thingy.	00:21
fenn	it has a roller thingy	00:21
fenn	more like a crab robot though	00:21
kanzure_	yay memory	00:21
kanzure_	I got a stupid email today about some synthetic biology paper that said "RAWR WE NEED CATEGORIES" and so some kids got their names on a paper for saying it.	01:04
kanzure_	Why didn't I write that?	01:05
kanzure_	weren't we ranting about this months ago?	01:05
fenn	uh huh	01:05
kanzure_	weren't we??	01:05
fenn	yep	01:05
kanzure_	I think I should rant in PDF form from now on.	01:05
fenn	linkdumps are encouraged in pdf form	01:06
kanzure_	For some reason I don't tend to bookmark papers that I read.	01:07
fenn	lazyweb me wants a url->bibtex translator	01:07
kanzure_	Mostly because it's too much overhead. Download PDF, rename, move to the right location; tab over to the actual PDF display;	01:07
kanzure_	luckily some of the paper websites list the bibtex or some other weird citation format	01:07
UtopiahGHML	Zotero	01:07
kanzure_	sciencedirect, for instance, does it in plain html	01:07
kanzure_	UtopiahGHML: Firefox extensions don't count.	01:07
kanzure_	The publishers don't actually take pdf submissions, of course ..	01:11
kanzure_	they have their various latex template files I'm sure.	01:11
kanzure_	fenn: Who was it that did that Regli virtual manufacturing research with NSF originally?	01:31
kanzure_	NIST, woops.	01:31
kanzure_	It wasn't Regli, I just remember that nam.	01:32
kanzure_	luf-team email about Vermont virtual companies. Apparently they are implementing some CGI(?) gateways to allow you to register companies automatically.	01:35
kanzure_	this is a russian botnet's owner wetdream ..	01:36
kanzure_	go install some stuff on Amazon W3 services, deploy a few fake email addresses (dodgeit.com?), ..	01:36
kanzure_	get a few pre-paid credit cards ..	01:37
kanzure_	I wonder if a virtual company will be subject to zoning laws. haha.	01:37
kanzure_	(not IP zoning.)	01:38
kanzure_	fenn: I ask about the NIST virtual manufacturing stuff because that would be very good context-establishing information for the email. which you haven't sent me.	01:48
fenn	this? http://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/vm2/	02:31
kanzure_	Ah, Nau. yeah.	02:31
fenn	re: cgi corporation, reminds me of 'lobsters' by stross	02:32
fenn	he had a flock of corporations whose bylaws were written in python	02:32
fenn	used them for lawsuit barrage DOS attack	02:33
kanzure_	bylaws written in python? Business operations in python, sure. Bylaws, I'm not so sure.	02:33
kanzure_	"There will be one meeting every month!" is a bylaw	02:33
fenn	well, something like that	02:33
kanzure_	"There's a meeting this month" would be a check.	02:33
kanzure_	okay	02:33
kanzure_	I don't remember that section either.	02:34
fenn	'corporation will follow its prescribed business operations' check	02:34
fenn	'corporation will do what it wants'	02:34
kanzure_	I want to see if they have fees for setting up companies. If so, we get to argue "land of opportunity" and "unreasonable fees."	02:35
kanzure_	"Sorry, that's how much they have to charge in order to pay off the consultants."	02:35
kanzure_	"I'll do it for free."	02:36
kanzure_	"Sorry, we still have to fuck you."	02:36
fenn	interesting that it's vermont	02:36
kanzure_	Is Wikipedia giving some weird unicode output for you?	02:40
fenn	example link?	02:41
fenn	the list of languages are unicode of course	02:41
kanzure_	there it goes.	02:41
kanzure_	Anyway, I was trying to remember the population of Vermont.	02:42
kanzure_	600,000	02:42
kanzure_	significant in the sense that it's not.	02:42
fenn	i'm amazed at how well konqueror/kwrite handles the mixed unicode text	02:43
kanzure_	It was this bad output for the entire page, I suspect it was on my end.	02:43
fenn	it only screws up when selecting persian (which seems to have a lot of ligatures)	02:44
kanzure_	Not what I mean.	02:45
kanzure_	I should have saved the page.	02:45
fenn	http://media.armadilloaerospace.com/2008_10_24/LLC_Level_1_flight_2.mpg	03:39
fenn	reminds me of a certain video game	03:40
gene	well you know the company is headed up by john carmack	03:48
bkero	Holy shit	03:50
bkero	That's less people than Montana	03:50
bkero	I thought only Wyoming had less people	03:50
fenn	now this is what i call a dot matrix printer: http://www.dapramarking.com/video/wmv/DMS-HandHeldMarking.wmv	04:03
gene	http://fab.cba.mit.edu/classes/MIT/961.04/people/manu/projects.html	04:04
gene	check it out	04:04
gene	a pocket mill	04:04
fenn	sweet	04:04
gene	now if we could only build one	04:05
fenn	i have no idea what i'm looking at	04:05
gene	it's a milling machine	04:05
gene	that could fit in your pocket	04:05
gene	ie	04:05
gene	it cuts a way stuff to make things	04:05
fenn	the "maze" kinda reminds me of physik instrumente's 6-axis piezo stages	04:06
gene	it is a piezo stage basically	04:07
fenn	but there arent enough actuators	04:07
gene	it appears to be six axis	04:08
gene	do you have access to piezo stages?	04:08
fenn	there's only two piezo actuators (the oval thingies	04:08
fenn	no i dont have access to anything	04:09
gene	the paper says there's like 6 axises	04:09
fenn	the paper by Shorya Awtar?	04:10
gene	that marking gun would be great to have	04:10
gene	Apply to surface	04:10
gene	and bam graffitti	04:10
fenn	inkjet cartridge + mouse sensor would be neat too	04:10
fenn	"technology disclosures - filing underway" wtf does that mean	04:12
gene	sigh	04:13
gene	if only we could figure out how inkjet cartridges are controlled	04:13
gene	we could do amazing things	04:14
fenn	"if only"?	04:14
gene	much of the cost(for Z-corp) of a Z-corp 3d printer is making a special driver to control the inkjet cartridge(same as the ones 2d printers use)	04:15
fenn	one would think that i would have saved the inkjet graffiti device as a bookmark...	04:16
gene	the only reason why 3d printers cost a lot, is that people who buy them are willing to pay a lot	04:16
gene	was it an epson inkjet?	04:17
gene	epson inkjets are the best to use for 3d printing	04:17
fenn	can't find it again. whoever wrote the article reverse engineered the inkjet pinout in an afternoon	04:19
fenn	do you have a real source for "much of the cost is in inkjet drivers" or are you bullshitting me?	04:20
gene	it's true	04:22
gene	and that probably doesn't cost much	04:23
fenn	"it's true" means what	04:23
gene	hold on let me find the sauce	04:23
fenn	i know it's just a glorified xyz stage with a squeegee and an inkjet cartridge	04:24
fenn	but i bet the software development is a miniscule part of the actual costs	04:24
fenn	tech support is probably greatest	04:25
fenn	followed closely by legal fees :)	04:25
gene	http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2005/0225007.html	04:26
gene	it's more than just a squeegee	04:26
gene	it's a roller	04:26
gene	and a powder dispenser	04:27
fenn	oh right, i've seen that	04:27
gene	there is also a special heater	04:27
gene	and a binder reservoir the size of a small gas tank	04:28
gene	the binder is just water with some stuff added to it	04:28
gene	Z-corp is making quite a profit	04:29
gene	and guess what Z-corp uses to add color to their prints	04:30
gene	?	04:30
gene	Guess	04:30
gene	Food Dye	04:30
gene	http://www.mae.carleton.ca/MSDS/ZB%207%20Binder.pdf	04:30
fenn	ooo	04:33
fenn	i bet they are	04:33
gene	yeah	04:33
fenn	why havent we seen "hack your inkjet into a 3d printer" instructable yet	04:33
fenn	what's the powder, baking soda?	04:34
fenn	i hear powdered sugar should work too	04:34
gene	someone made one though	04:34
gene	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Y8WnSKvC8	04:34
gene	http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?70,11563,page=1	04:34
gene	powder is maltodextrin	04:35
gene	or something like that	04:35
gene	or plaster	04:35
fenn	hmm plaster would be good	04:36
gene	you strengthen the print out by dripping super glue on it	04:37
fenn	what do you think about leaving some capillary channels through the part to soak up a stronger resin, like epoxy	04:38
gene	Z-corp sells special additives for strengthening parts like that	04:38
fenn	"sulfate salt" is probably an anti-caking agent	04:38
gene	there's this one video of a z-corp part treated with their special super secret additive	04:39
gene	and the par being used as a hammer	04:39
kanzure_	John Carmack has emailed me before.	04:41
fenn	didnt he say something like 'you need to do your homework'? :)	04:41
kanzure_	fenn, can you link me to the pocket mill paper that you can't access?	04:41
fenn	no	04:42
fenn	i dont know what paper gene was talking about	04:42
gene	paper?	04:42
gene	Damn Kanzure you know Carmack too?	04:42
kanzure_	I'm a bit extreme.	04:44
kanzure_	Um.	04:44
gene	what did carmack email you about?	04:44
kanzure_	fenn: I was assuming the link was from the .edu page.	04:44
kanzure_	Some CFD stuff and telling me to stop trying with amateur rocketry.	04:44
kanzure_	Totally destroyed my image of him.	04:44
gene	you did amateur rocketry?	04:45
kanzure_	I haven't stopped.	04:45
fenn	O RLY	04:45
kanzure_	Just haven't been building things of late ..	04:45
gene	what was your propellant?	04:45
kanzure_	You're assuming I had something working?	04:45
gene	ha	04:45
gene	yeah	04:45
kanzure_	Bad assumption.	04:45
fenn	geez not like it's hard to go buy an estes kit	04:45
gene	so what did you intend your propellant to be?	04:45
kanzure_	Candy.	04:46
gene	oh	04:46
gene	don't you mean oxidizer and candy?	04:46
gene	what did you intend to use as an oxidizer?	04:47
gene	perchlorate?	04:47
gene	potassium nitrate	04:47
gene	?	04:47
kanzure_	KNO3, yes.	04:47
kanzure_	In particular I was following the sugar-candy rocket people, like Richard Nakka.	04:47
gene	was this a serious rocket?	04:48
kanzure_	Why are you assuming there was just one rocket ?	04:48
kanzure_	this is weird	04:48
kanzure_	Stop assuming shit.	04:48
gene	did you intend to build big serious rockets?	04:49
gene	or estes sized things	04:49
kanzure_	Big stuff, but you don't start big.	04:49
gene	how big?	04:50
fenn	but you dont start at all sometimes	04:50
gene	get to space big?	04:50
kanzure_	That's altitude.	04:50
kanzure_	Are you talking about physical size or distance?	04:50
kanzure_	*or altitude?	04:50
fenn	velocity	04:51
gene	sometimes they are mutually exclusive	04:51
kanzure_	Anyway, it's not like I had schematics or any metal laying around.	04:51
fenn	if you can make a rocket go mach 30 i'll be impressed	04:51
kanzure_	Go bark up another tree.	04:51
gene	heh fenn	04:53
gene	I don't think anything can go mach 30	04:53
gene	in the atmosphere at least	04:53
fenn	shirley you must be joking	04:53
fenn	not in the atmosphere	04:53
kanzure_	"frivolous ambivalence" heh'	04:54
gene	were you intending to build a scramjet?	04:55
kanzure_	What I was planning on doing was improving some models of engines and designs that I was pulling out of my copy of Sutton	04:55
gene	Sutton?	04:56
kanzure_	Carmack didn't think this was appropriate and basically gave me the finger.	04:56
kanzure_	(but not much in terms of alternatives)	04:56
kanzure_	(he isn't why I stopped, of course)	04:56
gene	heh	04:56
kanzure_	http://osaerospace.com/	04:56
gene	were you telling him to go open source?	04:57
kanzure_	No.	04:57
kanzure_	I was not talking to him; he just replied to me.	04:57
gene	man he must be quite a dick	04:57
kanzure_	and so we started talking etc.	04:58
kanzure_	I don't know about that.	04:58
kanzure_	I think he just needed to rant.	04:58
fenn	wowee 0 forum posts and no content, wtf is the point of osaerospace.com	04:58
kanzure_	"You damned kids don't know how hard it is, rawr"	04:58
kanzure_	fenn: Squatters.	04:58
gene	well	04:59
kanzure_	"Back in my day, we solved PDEs by throwing stones at the Chinese."	04:59
gene	if you were trying to get into space, then he might have had the right to say that it was hard, if you were trying to build something estes sized then he didn't	04:59
gene	heh	04:59
gene	can you solve PDEs kanzure?	05:00
* fenn has maxima installed...		05:00
* kanzure_ has mathematica, maxima, matlab, labview, ocam, and a few others installed		05:00
fenn	not like i know how to use it or anything though	05:00
kanzure_	So yes.	05:00
kanzure_	*maxima	05:00
gene	I mean by hand	05:00
kanzure_	Why the fuck would you do it by hand?	05:00
kanzure_	Do you have any idea what you'd be getting into?	05:01
fenn	it makes sense to know what's going on "under the hood"	05:01
gene	because they don't allow us to use calculators on the test	05:01
fenn	but how often does one use PDE's in real life?	05:01
kanzure_	who's they?	05:01
kanzure_	and what test ??	05:01
gene	my math teacher	05:01
gene	the one on monday	05:01
kanzure_	fuck your math teacher	05:01
gene	his background is error analysis	05:02
gene	which means he really don't trust computers	05:02
fenn	i have a book on that	05:02
fenn	oh, wron kind of error analysis	05:03
kanzure_	There are ways to prove programs for correctness.	05:03
gene	I know	05:03
gene	I hate doing PDEs too kanzure	05:03
fenn	so, what's the big deal?	05:03
kanzure_	If he has a list of arguments for why a certain PDE solution algorithm sucks, that's fine, but I don't see why his test has to get in the way of me doing modeling on a computer and Carmack yelling at us "damned youngers"	05:03
gene	I know	05:04
gene	is there anyway I could run that software on two sheets of paper like a slide rule?	05:04
fenn	you could make some colored tiles and assemble/disassemble them until you get the solution :\	05:05
kanzure_	But you might as well just know the algorithms at that point.	05:05
gene	I am allowed only two sheets of paper on the test	05:06
kanzure_	see, this is why selling yourself like a whore is a bad idea.	05:06
fenn	thank you so much for saying that kanzure	05:07
gene	now if I could implant a calculator in my hand...	05:07
kanzure_	?	05:07
gene	that's controlled by thinking	05:07
kanzure_	gene: Have you seen the TI-83 hacks that replace the processor and so on?	05:07
kanzure_	fenn: sarcasm?	05:07
gene	yeah	05:07
fenn	i'm sorta worried about slaving like a dog for campbell/<insert professor here> and then them getting all the credit/IP	05:07
gene	I can't use a calculator	05:07
kanzure_	fenn: so you're not worried about the general slaving part?	05:07
fenn	if i'm doing something i believe in, it's not slaving	05:08
fenn	doing lots of work for someone else's benefit for little pay is slaving	05:08
gene	heh we might have to worry about that kanzure	05:08
kanzure_	gene: What?	05:08
kanzure_	fenn: So, what I do is I write the majority of the good code at home and publish it on the web before I show it in the lab	05:09
kanzure_	well, or I write it on the job but not on a logged hour, that sort of thing	05:09
kanzure_	but this is just cheap.	05:09
fenn	uh, ok	05:09
kanzure_	oh	05:09
fenn	somehow i doubt that counts	05:09
kanzure_	I talked with Campbell about the licensing stuffs	05:09
kanzure_	(not the "co-author" stuff - he's eager to get me on a paper)	05:09
kanzure_	and he's basically as clueless/apprehensive as I am about it	05:10
gene	yeah I know	05:10
kanzure_	"Well, I've had graphsynth online for 3 years, so it's out there. I'm just worried about what the university will say."	05:10
gene	actually doesn't he want us to publish something over the break?	05:10
kanzure_	gene: You don't work for Campbell.	05:10
gene	Does fenn?	05:11
fenn	well, i wont sign anything that says i have to fork copyright over to the uni. i'll cross it out	05:11
gene	I am not familiar with campbell	05:11
kanzure_	gene: Maybe.	05:11
kanzure_	fenn: I haven't had to sign anything like that.	05:11
kanzure_	but it might be "implied".	05:11
kanzure_	dunno	05:11
fenn	it might have been buried in fine print	05:11
gene	that would be scary	05:12
fenn	ho hum. so what's campbell doing in engineering anyway?	05:12
fenn	i guess i should ask him that not you	05:12
kanzure_	that's a good idea.	05:12
kanzure_	did you send the email?>	05:13
kanzure_	before I could ask him he answered it for me	05:13
fenn	yes, last night	05:13
kanzure_	but I don't remember the specifics.	05:13
kanzure_	it was more like "I feel kind of bad being all in engineering and here I am publishing about graph theory"	05:13
gene	who is campbell?	05:13
kanzure_	Automated Design Lab professor.	05:13
fenn	head(?) of the utexas automated design lab	05:13
kanzure_	fenn: head.	05:14
fenn	giant pulsating brain	05:14
kanzure_	fenn: the hierarchy goes Manufacturing and Design Lab -> ADL	05:14
kanzure_	uh, I guess <- ADL.	05:14
fenn	say that again?	05:14
kanzure_	how does one express subordination?	05:14
fenn	a is a subset of b	05:14
kanzure_	ADL is a subset of MAD lab	05:14
kanzure_	but I was talking about the -> notation.	05:15
fenn	i dont know any -> notation	05:15
kanzure_	guess that's directionality	05:15
gene	kanzure, if the computers ever start disobeying humans decommission them with a hammer	05:15
fenn	that's perl's lame excuse for a method operator	05:15
kanzure_	so campbell was complaining about how I work so ridiculously fast	05:16
kanzure_	"I need a grad student"	05:16
kanzure_	boom	05:16
fenn	o rly	05:16
fenn	when was this?	05:16
kanzure_	huh? a few days ago.	05:16
gene	damn Kanzure	05:16
kanzure_	fenn: really he was saying full time	05:16
fenn	well, i am slow, so maybe it will balance out	05:16
kanzure_	but that's why I told you	05:16
kanzure_	huh?	05:16
kanzure_	No, I mean you.	05:17
* fenn tries to untangle the conversation		05:17
kanzure_	nevermind.	05:17
kanzure_	No information was conveyed.	05:17
fenn	"i am the bottleneck"	05:17
kanzure_	no.	05:17
kanzure_	I was just saying that he was talking about how fast I work, and he was also saying that I shouldn't be doing some of the work I do or whatever, that he needs a full timer	05:18
fenn	"from my distorted and anxiety ridden perspective, it appears that my behavior takes on certain characteristics of a bottlneck in a flow system"	05:18
kanzure_	so I was saying that as evidence of this quickness, he now has a resume sitting in his inbox	05:18
* fenn hates e-prime		05:18
kanzure_	what are you saying now?	05:18
* kanzure_ goes away		05:18
gene	any way	05:19
gene	nevermind	05:20
kanzure_	?	05:20
gene	I'm wondering if I could build a pocket mill	05:20
gene	or other small mill	05:20
gene	that could be kept in a dorm	05:21
kanzure_	Did you see the papers on a 30x30x30 mm mill + lathe setup?	05:21
gene	yeah	05:21
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/manufacturing/ <- somewhere in here	05:21
gene	the microfactory right?	05:21
kanzure_	yes	05:21
gene	yeah	05:21
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/	05:21
gene	too bad it ain't any where near automated	05:21
kanzure_	What, you mean load/unload of materials?	05:21
gene	yeah	05:21
kanzure_	Even if it was, that would be hard to deploy in a dorm.	05:22
kanzure_	You don't quite have enough space to stack an inventory preped for autoloading.	05:22
gene	now how would we automate it?	05:22
gene	well	05:22
kanzure_	In a dorm? forget about it,	05:22
kanzure_	but if you have lab space then you can start talking about some lifting mechanisms and positioners with guidetrains	05:22
gene	I just want to build an electrochemical mill	05:22
kanzure_	guidethingies	05:22
kanzure_	um	05:23
kanzure_	guideboxes?	05:23
kanzure_	guiderails.	05:23
gene	I've been contemplating designing a electrochemical machining head for reprap	05:23
kanzure_	For electrochemistry?	05:24
gene	for machining metal	05:24
fenn	are you sure you mean ECM and not EDM?	05:24
gene	yes	05:25
gene	ECM is easier to do	05:25
fenn	well, good luck with that	05:25
kanzure_	Quick summary of ECM?	05:25
fenn	massive computational prediction of electrode shape to remove the desired form from cathode	05:25
fenn	s/electrode/anode/	05:25
kanzure_	huh? So you make this anode?	05:26
fenn	yes	05:26
kanzure_	and then you do anode-cathode contact and do what, where's the chemistry?	05:26
fenn	they're separated by electrolyte solution	05:26
kanzure_	and this causes some induction of heat or something.	05:26
kanzure_	Alright.	05:26
fenn	it dissolves into solution and then plates onto the anode	05:26
gene	you scan a syringe coated with insulator except for the very tip charged up some odd distance from surface spraying electrolyte(salt water ok, sodium nitrate great)	05:26
gene	it goes into solute	05:27
gene	it goes into solution I mean	05:27
gene	how do you make electrode	05:27
kanzure_	Heh, I cacn link you to how to make electrodes for brain stimulation. Not the same thing.	05:27
gene	you buy a blunt tipped dispensing tip	05:27
gene	you could make electrodes for brain stimulation	05:28
gene	with ECM	05:28
kanzure_	This method just involved wrapping wires carefully.	05:28
gene	gold wires right?	05:28
kanzure_	(and very large)	05:28
gene	btw got an idea for brain stimulation	05:28
kanzure_	Maybe. http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/neuro/ has a file on it. (one of the PDFs)	05:28
gene	that might work	05:28
gene	and would do minimal damage to tissue(hopefully)	05:29
gene	I'll explain it later	05:30
kanzure_	Why not now?	05:30
kanzure_	You just started to say, but now you're starting?	05:30
kanzure_	*you're stopping?	05:30
gene	ok	05:30
gene	basic idea is that you have a nonconductive fiber coated with	05:31
gene	metal and insulator such that you have a bunch of electrode pads on it	05:32
gene	push these fibers into nerve fibers	05:32
gene	such that they form something of a matrix	05:32
kanzure_	Like an MEA?	05:33
kanzure_	Microelectrode array	05:33
gene	yeah	05:33
gene	but you apply electricity at x and y fibers	05:33
kanzure_	How is that not like an MEA?	05:33
gene	to stimulate xy neurons	05:34
fenn	you cant multiplex an electrode, sorry	05:34
fenn	think about it	05:34
gene	because it goes into the nerve fiber	05:34
kanzure_	An MEA supposedly has specific control of each electrode tip.	05:34
gene	I know	05:34
kanzure_	but you can make crappy versions of course	05:34
fenn	there has to be some kind of and gate at each junction	05:34
gene	but neurons can't go through the electrode array	05:35
kanzure_	fenn: What is multiplexing again?	05:35
fenn	the x/y multiply number of i/o scheme	05:35
fenn	using x anodes and y cathodes	05:35
kanzure_	multiply?	05:35
fenn	er, multiplexing is more general than that actually	05:35
gene	it's hard to install a flat plate electrode array and connecting up the neurons on the other time	05:36
kanzure_	time?	05:36
gene	other side	05:36
gene	lol dyslexia	05:36
kanzure_	It's pretty easy to push a flat plate into the brain	05:36
gene	yeah it is	05:36
kanzure_	It's done all the time for MEA studies in vivo.	05:36
gene	but you damage a lot in the process	05:36
kanzure_	Not with things like patch clamp methods,	05:37
fenn	gene you could do something with plastic transistors on flexible plastic	05:37
kanzure_	there's been a few articles about "self-guided tips" and scuh.	05:37
kanzure_	flexible plastic sounds less intense. :)	05:37
gene	Oh sorry, we didn't mean to erase your ability to do calculus	05:37
kanzure_	Killing one or two neurons on the surface of the cortex doesn't quite work like that.	05:38
kanzure_	but it's of course important to avoid.	05:38
gene	we didn't mean to mess up your memory of your encryption key	05:38
kanzure_	Who's this "we"?	05:38
gene	it's a hypothetical	05:38
gene	situation	05:39
kanzure_	A few months ago I was thinking about getting the trepanation people to also do some implants while they are at it.	05:39
gene	anyway	05:39
gene	how do you get deep into the brain	05:39
gene	err...	05:39
kanzure_	You do deep stuff without MEAs. ;-)	05:40
fenn	we = Lacuna, Inc.	05:40
kanzure_	Lucana? who ?	05:40
gene	how do you get a MEA deep into the brain	05:40
gene	fenn it's hypothetical	05:40
gene	with out messing up a bunch of stuff	05:40
kanzure_	YOu don't get an MEA deep into the brain.	05:40
kanzure_	That's like mashing a giant surface into your brain.	05:40
kanzure_	You just want the electrode tips.	05:40
fenn	what's with all these sublet people wanting to keep their stupid furniture in the apt.. sheesh	05:40
kanzure_	And even then you're cutting through a lot of tissue.	05:40
kanzure_	fenn: huh?	05:40
gene	I am talking about pushing in tiny wires between neurons	05:41
gene	tiny wires	05:41
kanzure_	gene: So, DeMarse does this kind of.	05:42
kanzure_	What some people have been doing is getting some silicon surfaces, HFMA or whatever,	05:42
gene	does he have wire with electrodes on them?	05:42
kanzure_	drawing a PCB circuit on it	05:42
gene	or a wire that is an electrode	05:42
kanzure_	and then coating that same circuit pattern with neurotin or something	05:42
kanzure_	maybe NGF, nerve growth factor	05:43
kanzure_	and then adding a culture to the protocol	05:43
kanzure_	So, then you have neurons growing at very specific locations	05:43
kanzure_	and it's networked.	05:43
gene	hmmm...	05:43
kanzure_	So then you know the exact linkup and where to insert pins for ideal locations	05:43
kanzure_	However, if it's on a surface anyway, just put it under a microscope.	05:43
gene	so what would it take to expand my sensory and motor homunucli?	05:43
kanzure_	and do typical patch glamp optical microscopy guidance.	05:43
kanzure_	What would you consider 'expand' to be?	05:44
gene	ability to use more arms at the same time	05:44
gene	well I am AFK	05:44
kanzure_	I suspect the state of the arm attachment is the more important factor ..	05:45
gene	robotic arm	05:45
gene	over the internet	05:45
gene	or what not	05:45
kanzure_	uh, no	05:45
kanzure_	What's the physical connection?	05:45
gene	wifi	05:45
gene	blue tooth	05:45
kanzure_	Your brain does not have a wifi or bluetooth receiver.	05:46
kanzure_	For the record, the open source prosthetics people use some chest stuff for wacky third arm movement.	05:47
gene	not yet it doesn't	05:47
* fenn suggests RFID since it needs no power source		05:47
gene	yes it does fenn	05:48
fenn	well, not inside your skull at least	05:48
fenn	hmm or blood fuel cell	05:49
fenn	n/m pay no attention to me	05:49
kanzure_	Power-on on read request?	05:49
kanzure_	that would be nice if it follows some "recently released calcium" rule or something	05:49
kanzure_	erm, recent release of neurotransmitter effecting the concentration at the electrode tip	05:49
fenn	hyperventilate to turn on brain prosthetic :)	05:50
kanzure_	and this being read as input when it gets transmitted power	05:50
kanzure_	but anyway,	05:50
kanzure_	the MEAs already tend to use electrical in	05:50
kanzure_	uh	05:50
kanzure_	I forget the terminology	05:50
kanzure_	but they do not require batteries.	05:50
kanzure_	same concept as microwave energy transmission	05:50
fenn	RFID basically	05:50
kanzure_	Really?	05:50
fenn	induced current in a coil right?	05:51
kanzure_	because this uses some funky hardcore EM principles for transduction or something	05:51
kanzure_	yeah	05:51
fenn	the higher frequency the smaller the coil can be	05:51
kanzure_	the papers are good btw, especially the Shazaku or whatever paper	05:51
* kanzure_ checks		05:51
kanzure_	blah, the Irazaquui guy or whatever	05:53
kanzure_	can't remember his name or the link in the ~bbishop/docs/neuro/ dir.	05:53
kanzure_	heh, one of the names in there is 'Arfin'. Scott Arfin hit me up over gmail once about me having his paper in that directory ..	05:53
kanzure_	he was actually glad to see it there.	05:53
kanzure_	He did MEA + bird studies.	05:54
fenn	most people are sensible	05:54
kanzure_	gasp	05:54
fenn	um, as far as redistributing their papers, i mean	05:54
* fenn wants a song extractor brain prosthesis		05:57
kanzure_	That sounds like the start to a bad fairytale.	05:58
fenn	once upon a time, there was a prince with a song stuck in his head	05:58
kanzure_	"Help! The evil mad scientist has stolen the song from all the birds!"	05:58
kanzure_	enter mario	05:58
kanzure_	or something.	05:58
fenn	doctor robotnik	05:58
kanzure_	I still like my copy of "Once upon a galaxy"	06:01
kanzure_	and I only wish it was an anime novelization instead a collection of science fiction fairytales	06:02
kanzure_	fenn: Do you see Nathan's post on "open enterprise"?	06:11
gene	kanzure I believe the MEA you are referring to work like transformers	06:11
kanzure_	I don't think Nathan understands how easy it is to code up some HR dept apps for his 'enterprise'	06:11
kanzure_	gene: Did you read any of the papers?	06:11
kanzure_	or at least glance	06:11
gene	no	06:11
kanzure_	You should trust the documents over me, in this case.	06:12
gene	lol doctor robotnik	06:12
gene	how much access do you have to the ME server?	06:12
gene	are you root?	06:12
kanzure_	None at the moment, I don't know its address.	06:12
gene	damn	06:13
kanzure_	kanzure- isn't logged in, so something bad happened.	06:13
gene	well the ME server is sorta broken right now	06:13
kanzure_	what?	06:13
kanzure_	I don't think you know how servers work	06:13
kanzure_	There are multiple servers in the mechanical engineering department.	06:13
gene	it's broken as far as I am concerned	06:13
gene	it's not letting me save files and stuff on it	06:13
gene	which is fucking annoying	06:14
kanzure_	You don't have access to the server I deployed.	06:14
gene	oh	06:14
gene	I have to write functions in matlab	06:14
gene	which means I have to save them in the same folder as matlab	06:14
gene	but I can	06:15
gene	t	06:15
gene	because the ME server won't let me	06:15
gene	so anyway want to help me with our project?	06:16
kanzure_	Which project?	06:16
gene	catapult v2	06:16
kanzure_	What's up with that anyway? You're not getting credit for it, and I think he's only printing the stuff we've snet him, which was the other parts we've emailed him.	06:17
kanzure_	*sent	06:17
gene	crap	06:17
gene	you already sent the part's?	06:17
kanzure_	I cc'd you ..	06:17
gene	what do you mean I am not getting credit	06:17
kanzure_	well	06:18
gene	I made most of the parts	06:18
kanzure_	that's not what I'm talking about	06:18
gene	what for improving the catapult?	06:18
kanzure_	yeah. I mean, it's cool and everything, but it's not something I'm spending time on because of other things going on	06:19
gene	ok	06:19
kanzure_	and also because it's not for credit	06:19
gene	I know	06:19
fenn	aha i figured out what the song was stuck in my head.. it's from this video: http://www.wehi.edu.au/wehi-tv/others/movies/WTV_Lge_v3.mov	06:19
gene	well then	06:19
fenn	just doing my meme-propagation duty	06:20
gene	I didn't know that you already sent the parts	06:20
kanzure_	I cc'd you.	06:20
gene	did you say it was all the parts?	06:20
kanzure_	no	06:20
gene	excellent	06:21
kanzure_	yeah, so feel free to email him stuff I guess, but I don't know if there's a guarantee that he will print it.	06:22
gene	I can't download the stuff	06:23
gene	damn	06:23
kanzure_	huh?	06:23
kanzure_	download?	06:23
gene	the zip	06:23
kanzure_	email would require uploading	06:23
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/project/ should have the zip	06:23
gene	um	06:24
kanzure_	I really really doubt that Nathan gets how easy it's supposed to be.	06:30
kanzure_	you could code some of the modules with less words than Nathan took to write that email	06:31
fenn	nathan == knuggy?	06:32
kanzure_	yes.	06:32
kanzure_	um, his name is written right next to knuggy	06:32
kanzure_	what interface are you using?	06:32
fenn	must be some feature of your address book. i'm using pine	06:32
kanzure_	I'm using gmail at the moment.	06:32
kanzure_	when the laptop ressurrects itself, it's back to kmail for me.	06:33
kanzure_	er,,	06:33
kanzure_	I'm using the gmail web interface at the moment	06:33
fenn	this sorta sounds like a One True Prophet	06:34
kanzure_	ref?	06:34
* fenn shrugs		06:34
fenn	big talk and short on details	06:34
kanzure_	oh.	06:34
kanzure_	yes.	06:34
kanzure_	I don't want to be a prick, but I really should reply with "This would take less words to program than it took you to write it .. shut up and code."	06:35
kanzure_	or really "shut up and go install a few drupal mods"	06:35
kanzure_	that's what I did with Andrew Hessel (oops) on diybio	06:35
kanzure_	"I was thinking of blah blah blah .. spending my christmas break .. blah blah blah.. "	06:35
fenn	why (oops)	06:35
kanzure_	"Uh, Andrew, .. here's the modules"	06:35
* fenn doesnt follow diybio		06:36
fenn	hard enough keeping up with openmanufacturing :)	06:36
kanzure_	bad idea to smite those that you try to follow closely	06:36
kanzure_	I mean, I talk big about Andrew :)	06:36
kanzure_	since his open source biology kill-teh-cancer stuff is good.	06:36
kanzure_	but here he is taking a few too many weeks on a community website thingy that is installed one-click with drupal?	06:36
kanzure_	wtf?	06:37
fenn	is he the radio frequency treatment guy?	06:37
kanzure_	no no	06:37
kanzure_	he's oncolytic virus guy	06:37
fenn	sounds.. tricky	06:37
kanzure_	he's "target an individual patient's cancer with genetically engineered viruses or whatever the hell we can to attack that particular mutation"	06:37
kanzure_	yeah, so he has some bio toolchain and stuff	06:37
kanzure_	sounds much like the biotech toolkit implemented for a specific purpose	06:37
kanzure_	met Andrew up at biobarcamp in CA	06:38
kanzure_	and he knew me before I knew him	06:38
kanzure_	so it was freaky.	06:39
fenn	that usually is	06:39
fenn	unless you're used to it	06:39
fenn	i should take him up on his book offer	06:39
kanzure_	I don't think I'll ever be used to it.	06:39
kanzure_	wha?	06:39
kanzure_	oh, the biology book stuff?	06:39
fenn	just some open source book	06:40
kanzure_	something like that was moving around on the diybio mailing list a few months ago.	06:40
kanzure_	are you talking about nathan?	06:40
fenn	"These ideas are explored in Open Sources 2.0, which is published by O'Reilly and is, ironically, not open source. I'll send you a PDF if you ask for one."	06:40
kanzure_	ah, Andrew.	06:40
kanzure_	on his openwetware page	06:40
kanzure_	I never did.	06:40
kanzure_	ahessel@gmail.com IIRC	06:40
fenn	hah role model manfred macx	06:41
kanzure_	I also have a few of his videos on the server	06:42
kanzure_	like his SENS3 talk.	06:42
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/books/Hessel_biofab.flv	06:43
kanzure_	His SENS3 talk was much like his biobarcamp talk except less polished.	06:44
gene	http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189	06:44
kanzure_	What is that?	06:45
gene	link unrelated to current topic	06:45
gene	but other topic	06:45
gene	one the most advanced factories in the world	06:45
kanzure_	the Saturn factory?	06:45
gene	of course it isn't fully automated	06:45
gene	ignore last few seconds of video	06:48
gene	kanzure did you get the new version of Make?	06:51
kanzure_	the program or the magazine?	06:51
gene	magazine	06:51
kanzure_	No.	06:51
kanzure_	Do you have scans?	06:52
gene	the digital edition yes	06:52
kanzure_	link?	06:52
gene	I can email you one page	06:52
kanzure_	One page?	06:53
gene	and that's pretty much it	06:53
kanzure_	how abotu all of them.	06:53
gene	I can't	06:53
kanzure_	uh?	06:53
kanzure_	Then how are you seeing them?	06:53
gene	it's a software viewer lol	06:53
kanzure_	what the fuck	06:53
gene	it's in my browser	06:53
gene	yes I know it sucks	06:53
fenn	like google books?	06:54
fenn	heh they know their readers are cheapasses	06:54
gene	sorta like google books	06:54
gene	cept you have to login	06:55
kanzure_	Have you tried reversing the protocol or writing a scraper?	06:55
gene	no	06:55
gene	kanzure	06:55
kanzure_	yes, so put that on the todo list	06:55
gene	I can't program that good	06:55
gene	anyway	06:56
fenn	god cars are so stupid	06:56
kanzure_	you were born just breathing,	06:56
kanzure_	so stop complaining.	06:56
gene	they have an article about hacking an ultrasonic atomizer	06:56
kanzure_	go look at perl's HTML:: modules from cpan.org for starters	06:56
kanzure_	I was using HTML::TreeBuilder and HTML::Agent or something	06:56
kanzure_	when I was ripping nature.	06:56
gene	useful, not useful?	06:56
fenn	maybe we should put this in the topic: http://www.nataliedee.com/090208/you-are-free-to-learn-how-to-do-stuff-at-any-time.jpg	06:57
kanzure_	They have functions for "click, submit button," etc., so it's not useful for javascript, you have to go read the javascript code and pretend you're the browser and just figure out what calls they are making	06:57
kanzure_	fenn: go ahead	06:57
fenn	meh, i hate topics	06:57
kanzure_	heh	06:57
gene	an ultrsonic atomizer does pretty much the same thing as a sonicator	06:58
kanzure_	while interesting, I'm more interested in the entire source rather than just an individual article	06:58
kanzure_	maybe you should look at the code I was using for ripping sciencedirect	06:58
gene	speaking of ultrasound	06:58
gene	http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1564	06:59
gene	I want to build one of these	06:59
fenn	there sure are a lot of people in that car factory doing robotable jobs	06:59
gene	yeah	06:59
gene	fenn there are	06:59
gene	people are cheap	06:59
gene	and they also replicate too	06:59
fenn	so wtf is the point of the video	06:59
fenn	"look a factory"	06:59
fenn	"ford is amazingly backward in US factories"	07:00
gene	it's a lot more automated than anything else	07:00
fenn	not really	07:00
kanzure_	http://heybryan.org/books/followlinks.pl for instance	07:00
gene	that's not important fenn forget that immediately	07:00
gene	ok	07:00
gene	so then	07:00
fenn	forgot	07:00
gene	about ultrasound	07:00
fenn	fog machine	07:00
gene	good idea fenn	07:01
gene	exactly what I was thinking	07:01
gene	use the piezo disk from a fog machine	07:01
gene	to make one of these	07:01
gene	http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1564	07:01
gene	I wonder if plain ol buzzer piezoes would work	07:02
fenn	i dont get what focuses it	07:03
gene	a horn	07:03
gene	the conical thing on the front focuses it	07:03
gene	sound is different from light fenn	07:03
gene	sound doesn't like to go from solid to air	07:04
fenn	neither does light	07:04
gene	so it goes to solid	07:04
gene	as the sound move toward the tip of the cone it gets more intense	07:04
kanzure_	more what now?	07:04
fenn	yeah but that shouldnt keep it focused in a beam	07:04
fenn	kanzure_: higher pressure level	07:05
kanzure_	okay.	07:05
gene	I don't know acoustics fenn	07:05
kanzure_	so the surface area of the opening of the horn is less than the conical opening at the non-output area of the horn?	07:06
gene	yeah	07:06
gene	I think you mean input area	07:06
gene	at least that's what I reason	07:06
fenn	cross sectional area	07:06
kanzure_	first opening should have been 'outputing'	07:06
kanzure_	okay.	07:07
fenn	with enough piezo discs they could make a phased array, but i guess it wouldnt look gun-like enough	07:07
gene	they already have phased arrays	07:07
gene	they use em for crowd control	07:08
gene	this thing works sorta like a laser	07:08
fenn	yes	07:08
gene	sound pulse from one disk	07:08
gene	gets to next disk	07:08
kanzure_	Where's that acoustic laser ref?	07:08
fenn	with no inversion though	07:08
gene	disk fires	07:08
gene	and so forth and so on	07:08
fenn	the disks should be "cocked" first if it were to be more like a laser	07:08
fenn	SASER :P	07:09
gene	hence sorta like a laser	07:09
fenn	say it with a lithp	07:09
kanzure_	but really, there was a 'saser' or something	07:10
kanzure_	search teh logs for 'acoustic'. we don't say that word much around here.	07:10
fenn	"scientists invent poop-yer-pants ray"	07:10
kanzure_	I'd make one.	07:10
fenn	not in my logs	07:11
kanzure_	hrm.	07:11
gene	dude	07:11
gene	this sonic ray	07:11
gene	can knock things over	07:11
gene	like cows	07:11
fenn	mooo	07:11
gene	or crates	07:12
fenn	or TERRISTS	07:12
gene	almost like the gravity gun	07:12
gene	in half life	07:12
gene	except with out the ability to attract things	07:12
fenn	well this looks fairly simple construction: http://www.acs.psu.edu/thermoacoustics/refrigeration/Acoustic Laser Demo - Instructions.pdf	07:13
gene	the page could not be found	07:14
fenn	i'm so not inserting %20's for you	07:14
kanzure_	hah	07:15
kanzure_	fenn: what's up with konqueror's URL copying anyway?	07:15
kanzure_	I guess that's worth a codefix. I'm sure urlencode() is in their codebase already somewhere.	07:15
kanzure_	um	07:15
gene	fenn your URL is made of fail	07:15
kanzure_	s/codefix/bug report/	07:15
kanzure_	gene: it's a byproduct of konqueror's URL copying mechanism	07:16
kanzure_	the URL is correct,	07:16
fenn	not my fault your irc client cant understand spaces	07:16
kanzure_	but your client thinks it's only a link up to the space	07:16
fenn	another day another.. well.. nothing really	07:17
fenn	g'nite	07:17
gene	I tried putting in _	07:17
gene	in the spaces	07:17
kanzure_	no	07:17
gene	but it don't work	07:17
gene	doesn't	07:17
kanzure_	why did you put in _	07:17
gene	I assumed that's what the spaces were	07:17
kanzure_	.. why?	07:17
gene	I didn't know you could spaces in a URL	07:18
gene	that's not a laser	07:19
gene	not even close to one	07:19
gene	they're just calling it one	07:21
gene	http://www.non-lethal-weapons.com/sy03abstracts/P40.pdf	07:22
gene	whoa	07:22
gene	these things are huge	07:22
gene	1 m long	07:22
gene	oh wait that isn't a paper	07:23
gene	it's just an abstract	07:23
* kanzure_ notices the time.		07:28
kanzure_	huh. good reason for me to be tired.	07:28
gene	yeah I did too	07:30
UtopiahGHML	Im not sure about who talked about 2nd life community/data being crappy and who didn't try Croquet yet but maybe http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7729963.stm could motivate a bit	12:49
nsh	meh	15:21
kanzure	This is getting out of hand. Now Paul is bullying Nathan about his document's licensing.	17:22
kanzure	Next he'll be doing a standard reply to each email "squawk, I don't know if I'm allowed to read this or not"	17:23
kanzure_	http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/3033410799/	17:29
kanzure	Heh. George Dvorsky tweeting about #converge: "This conference could double as an Asperger's convention."	19:49
kanzure	So what should I do. Sit around doing nothing today, or go take the drugs and throw off my sleeping schedule and possibly rip a hole in the fabric of the spacetime continuum (but get lots done)?	19:54
-!- UtopiahG1ML is now known as UtopiahGHML		19:59
kanzure_	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr-GXnNN37c <- What are they even supposed to be doing here? I'm so glad Microsoft isn't the final say in, anything at all.	20:23
kanzure_	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si2-gotn5uE "More than 40,000 factories across the U.S. have been shut down." Huh? Where can I go raid these then?	20:27
kanzure_	I think they might be lying.	20:27
kanzure_	around 3:00	20:27
fenn	haha seat performance +0.6%	20:29
kanzure	hey this is the INTERNET. this shit is IMPORTANT.	20:29
fenn	too bad its a bunch of gray executives driving stupid cars	20:30
fenn	"shut down" = disassembled and shipped to china	20:30
fenn	uhhhhhh only 12% of our GDP is manufacturing???	20:33
fenn	holy crap	20:33
fenn	i must not understand how GDP is calculated	20:34
fenn	oh i love flash, it's the greatest thing ever	20:48
fenn	UtopiahGHML: could you summarize that croquet video for me?	20:48
UtopiahGHML	fenn: I dont think it was about Croquet itself but just about using 3D env. at school	20:49
UtopiahGHML	for history, physics, etc	20:49
UtopiahGHML	it was a BBC vid and like most, the references are pretty bad (if existant...)	20:52
UtopiahGHML	Ill try croquet when Ill have a clean semantic wiki and be able to generate my croquet universe automatically	20:55
UtopiahGHML	but for now it's not a priority.	20:55
-!- Utopiah is now known as UtopiahGHML		21:39

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