| --- Day changed Mon Nov 24 2008 | ||
| kanzure | s/stuff/scenarios/ | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | the only way to survive a dying ship is just to be a fortress of solitude and pull some people through I guess, so good luck with that :/ | 00:00 |
| kanzure | he's probably in the best possible place to be though for economic slides. a fablab? hell. | 00:01 |
| fenn | yep | 00:01 |
| kanzure | How'd he pull that off anyway ?? | 00:01 |
| fenn | by being the only guy in iceland into open manufacturing? | 00:01 |
| fenn | or something like that | 00:02 |
| fenn | ever read his blog? | 00:02 |
| kanzure | No. I've been slacking on my RSS and RSS-accumulation behaviors. | 00:02 |
| kanzure | acquisition. | 00:02 |
| fenn | i can't agree that "being a fortress of solitude" works in an economic crash | 00:06 |
| fenn | it'd be the other way around | 00:06 |
| kanzure | it's hard to design for a community that has very little resources. | 00:07 |
| fenn | unless you're some kind of survivalist that has already stockpiled canned spam for the next 30 years in your cabin | 00:07 |
| fenn | but survivalists dont count | 00:07 |
| kanzure | I mean, we can always propose "go open! share with yourselves! immediate 'open initiative' for public ideas, designs and documentation to be spewed forth to help each other" | 00:07 |
| kanzure | but they haven't anything to *work with* except people, not materials | 00:08 |
| fenn | i dont believe that | 00:08 |
| fenn | iirc iceland has (had?) a large aluminum smelting industry | 00:08 |
| fenn | and the fish havent run away | 00:08 |
| kanzure | "immediate liquidation of intellectual property assets" hah | 00:08 |
| fenn | pff maybe we can start guptastan in iceland | 00:08 |
| kanzure | hm? | 00:09 |
| kanzure | with him the leader? | 00:09 |
| fenn | patent-free zone | 00:09 |
| fenn | hell i'd move there | 00:09 |
| fenn | its not like anyone's giving me money here in the US either | 00:09 |
| kanzure | "Sir, you're entering a patent-free zone, you'll have to check your pager at the front gates. But you do get this really bitching cool openmoko." | 00:09 |
| fenn | no, you dont get it | 00:09 |
| kanzure | oh? | 00:10 |
| kanzure | zoning laws perhaps? | 00:10 |
| fenn | all patents are null and void, so you can use whatever proprietary tech you want | 00:10 |
| kanzure | that's a neat state of emergency method | 00:10 |
| kanzure | it sounds like one of those things just wild enough to work | 00:10 |
| fenn | not state of emergency, state of emergence :) | 00:10 |
| fenn | dont you remember this? its like your atacama silliness: http://vinay.howtolivewiki.com/blog/global/free-guptastan-583 | 00:11 |
| kanzure | atacama?? | 00:11 |
| fenn | the autonomist calxist state | 00:11 |
| fenn | i forget what it was called | 00:12 |
| kanzure | calxia | 00:12 |
| kanzure | but yes. | 00:12 |
| kanzure | I wonder what advantage you can claim for a patent-free zone | 00:12 |
| fenn | oblivierra | 00:12 |
| kanzure | I mean, it's a weird remedy for a bizarre situation | 00:12 |
| kanzure | oblivierra was an MMORPG that the calxists were writing | 00:13 |
| fenn | oh, i thought it was a set of plans for calxia | 00:13 |
| kanzure | nah, it was a $300k~ cash cow | 00:13 |
| fenn | good luck | 00:13 |
| kanzure | don't know what happened to it | 00:13 |
| kanzure | it was 2005 or something, lots of code was written. maybe somebody sold it. | 00:13 |
| fenn | too much competition in the video games market | 00:13 |
| kanzure | but back to more important things, | 00:14 |
| fenn | the way i see it, patents are strangling earth to death | 00:14 |
| kanzure | how would you sell Smari on selling icelanders on patent-free zones? | 00:14 |
| kanzure | maybe. but don't you think they're alreay at the "steal as much as we can" stage? | 00:14 |
| fenn | no | 00:14 |
| kanzure | "government incentives for open progress" might do the trick | 00:14 |
| kanzure | but what incentives do they have?? | 00:14 |
| fenn | they have too much pride to withdraw from the global economic market | 00:14 |
| fenn | anyway i'm not asking for all of iceland to do this | 00:15 |
| fenn | just a single town or whatever | 00:15 |
| fenn | island maybe | 00:15 |
| kanzure | first you'd have to convince them that no one solution is going to be optimal | 00:15 |
| kanzure | and then you're gambling with your constituents | 00:16 |
| kanzure | which they might not like :-/ | 00:16 |
| fenn | i'm what? | 00:16 |
| kanzure | well, if you have one town trying out the whole open progress thing to get them rolling again | 00:16 |
| kanzure | and another one has some economic sanctions or something | 00:16 |
| kanzure | the people living in those different places might become very opinionated about the difference in governmental treatment | 00:16 |
| kanzure | governmental/political treatment | 00:16 |
| fenn | yeah, that's why land sucks | 00:17 |
| kanzure | grass is always greener stuff. | 00:17 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 00:17 |
| kanzure | here's a way to package it, I just sent this in my reply to Gupta - | 00:23 |
| kanzure | "since we're in a state of crisis, we call for blah blah blah full return on investment in public works and government sponsorship, all IP null and void, priority to public, open-inspired projects" | 00:24 |
| kanzure | "full return" as in "open access" | 00:24 |
| kanzure | hrm, who's the big open access sponsors around here? There's one that has a lot of abstract math on his site and is a prof, somewhere. | 00:24 |
| kanzure_ | http://chiaction.com/ultrasound_beauty/ultrasonic_foot_massager_sd955.shtml $200 0.5 MHz ultrasound massager. | 00:25 |
| fenn | reply to Gupta? | 00:35 |
| kanzure | smari? | 00:35 |
| kanzure | it was an email he sent to om that got me talking about iceland | 00:35 |
| fenn | dammit you scooped me | 00:36 |
| kanzure | huh? | 00:37 |
| fenn | n/m | 00:37 |
| fenn | at least you mentioned Pirate Party | 00:37 |
| fenn | why the hell did they put the fablab on this weird little island anyway | 00:37 |
| gene | hello, Kanzure | 01:05 |
| fenn | gene i want you to start thinking about ways to use algae to bind together fiberglass, like ways to make epoxy or similar substances | 01:06 |
| kanzure | Huh. Utah has a portable PET tomo trailer. | 01:06 |
| kanzure | fenn: we were talking about that at biobarcamp | 01:06 |
| kanzure | A venture capitalist / business woman was really into that idea. Mackenzie might recall some of those discussions. | 01:07 |
| fenn | is there a wiki page or anything? or just flapping lips | 01:07 |
| kanzure | Actually this was more about cultures for secreting binding agents or something | 01:07 |
| kanzure | just flapping lips | 01:07 |
| kanzure | barcamps all have wikis, but nobody uses them. | 01:07 |
| kanzure | I don't even know her name. | 01:07 |
| fenn | yay meatspace! | 01:07 |
| kanzure | conceptual re-spin on "bio mechanical devices". | 01:08 |
| kanzure | Ah, it was during a brainstorming session for io9 competition entries. | 01:09 |
| fenn | i'm just thinking about ways to build infrastructure on Vestmannaeyjar | 01:09 |
| kanzure | Well, what infrastructure do they need? | 01:09 |
| kanzure | Do they not have houses, food, what's going on? | 01:09 |
| fenn | not enough houses or food to sustain massive tourism/influx of immigrants | 01:10 |
| kanzure | immigrants? | 01:10 |
| fenn | guptastan! | 01:10 |
| fenn | the way i see it, logistics will always be a problem, so the more bulk materials you can manufacture on site from on-site materials, the better | 01:11 |
| gene | kanzure did we do a mass properties report? | 01:12 |
| kanzure | I just don't understand what they're trying to go for though | 01:12 |
| fenn | who is "they"? | 01:12 |
| gene | why fenn? | 01:12 |
| kanzure | gene: I already told you, no. | 01:12 |
| kanzure | fenn: the people living there | 01:12 |
| kanzure | the ones that are upset. | 01:12 |
| fenn | fuck those whiners | 01:12 |
| kanzure | the idea is to make them nonupset, yes? | 01:12 |
| fenn | yes | 01:12 |
| gene | when is it due? | 01:12 |
| kanzure | okay. so then you think we get to do some free calls on what to do with the land? | 01:12 |
| kanzure | gene: tomorrow | 01:12 |
| kanzure | as long as it's "positive growth", fenn? | 01:13 |
| fenn | yes, i think it's the opportunity to take a big bite out of the worldwide legal restrictions on anything cool | 01:13 |
| kanzure | I mean, that's a lot of free range there | 01:13 |
| gene | well I might be able to do it | 01:13 |
| gene | why do you want epoxy fenn? | 01:13 |
| fenn | gene: to glue together basalt fiber into interesting shapes | 01:13 |
| gene | why do you want to do that? | 01:13 |
| fenn | like houses or furniture | 01:13 |
| gene | where will you get the basalt fiber? | 01:13 |
| fenn | because there's nothing else to make them from, that's why | 01:13 |
| fenn | from the dirt | 01:13 |
| fenn | and the lava streams | 01:14 |
| kanzure | They have open-air lava streams? | 01:14 |
| fenn | apparently | 01:14 |
| kanzure | Or underground tunneling operations? | 01:14 |
| kanzure | huh | 01:14 |
| gene | you could use sand, beer, and gelatin | 01:14 |
| fenn | but anyway realistically this would be underground geothermal electrical generation | 01:14 |
| fenn | dammit gene, go do some homework | 01:14 |
| gene | I am confused | 01:14 |
| kanzure | not bad :) | 01:14 |
| gene | what do you think I am doing right now fenn? | 01:15 |
| fenn | talking about beer | 01:15 |
| gene | PS use PS | 01:15 |
| fenn | PS? | 01:15 |
| gene | yeah PS | 01:16 |
| fenn | please expand your acronyms | 01:17 |
| kanzure | seriously. | 01:17 |
| fenn | Lena M?rtensson. Department of Zoophysiology - Marine Paint. G?teborg University | 01:18 |
| fenn | studies algal barnacle and mussel glue secretions | 01:18 |
| fenn | hmmmm | 01:19 |
| kanzure | fenn, while we're at it, what's up with the pirate party these days anyway? particularly these days. | 01:19 |
| gene | PS= polystyrene | 01:19 |
| fenn | nfc, i havent heard anything since the elections | 01:19 |
| fenn | since the 2004 elections that is | 01:19 |
| gene | mussel glue scretions sweet | 01:20 |
| fenn | gene: i'm trying to make glue from scratch on an island in the middle of the ocean, there is no polystyrene to be had | 01:20 |
| gene | you could grow armor | 01:20 |
| kanzure | I seem to recall grinding up mussel shells into something useful, something sturdy like a bio-cement or something | 01:20 |
| gene | ask Kanzure about what dow chemical contacted us about | 01:20 |
| kanzure | under which context? | 01:21 |
| gene | algae---->plastic | 01:21 |
| kanzure | was this the synfuel, flue gas, or something else? They wanted a byproduct of our reactor (which doesn't even exist yet) | 01:21 |
| gene | algae---->plastic | 01:21 |
| gene | that's the context | 01:22 |
| kanzure | ah, I didn't know they wanted to make plastic | 01:22 |
| gene | yup | 01:22 |
| fenn | that should be fairly straightforward.. starch granules -> PLA | 01:22 |
| kanzure | who told you anyway? | 01:22 |
| kanzure | Was I zoning out when we were told what they wanted to do do with what? | 01:22 |
| gene | not starch | 01:22 |
| gene | normal plastics | 01:23 |
| gene | lol maybe Kanzure | 01:23 |
| gene | Sata told us | 01:30 |
| kanzure | I remember him telling us about Dow, but not what they wanted to do nor with what particular byproduct of our setup. | 01:31 |
| kanzure | Anyway, there's a Robot Group free dinner feast on December 14th if you want to attend that, it's a bit into South Austin off of Mopac. Just got email notification asking for RSVPs. | 01:31 |
| gene | hmmmm... maybe | 01:31 |
| kanzure | They have miniature CNC machines that they like to demo at the meetings :-) | 01:32 |
| kanzure | well, not full CNC, I guess this is just 2-axis stuff | 01:32 |
| gene | my chances of attending have now increased by 30% | 01:32 |
| gene | well then, do they do metal? | 01:33 |
| gene | and how small is small? | 01:33 |
| kanzure | tabletop small. | 01:33 |
| kanzure | They had a demo going at Maker Faire, the one cutting CDs. | 01:34 |
| gene | oh yeah | 01:34 |
| gene | that's fairly small | 01:34 |
| kanzure | Fireball QT something. It was all over the net earlier this year. $2k pricetag. | 01:34 |
| gene | so, would they be willing to use a ECM toolhead? | 01:34 |
| gene | for making parts from ultrahard materials? | 01:35 |
| kanzure | they are open to most anything as long as you're the one who does the work. | 01:37 |
| gene | well I might attend | 01:38 |
| kanzure | k, forwarded you the email asking for RSVPs. | 01:41 |
| gene | k thnx bai | 01:41 |
| kanzure | fenn, so back to taking a bite out of them. | 01:43 |
| fenn | chomp() | 01:43 |
| fenn | not really sure what i can do to influence icelandic legislation | 01:44 |
| kanzure | if they can pull off a Pirate Party or Jedi Religion stunt, or web-root campaign like Obama, that influence might happen | 01:44 |
| fenn | perhaps i could contact the pirate party | 01:44 |
| kanzure | aren't pirates supposed to be away at sea and unapproachable? :p | 01:45 |
| kanzure | but I'm wondering how to convince the icelanders not to get all angry. | 01:45 |
| kanzure | I mean, there's a million and one cool things to do with a lot of land and potential access to lots of basalt, geothermal energy sources, that sort of thing | 01:45 |
| kanzure | but they're all torn up about their lifestyles being destroyed, likely. | 01:46 |
| kanzure | hrm. to the icelandish blogosphere! | 01:46 |
| fenn | there's only 4000 people living on vestmannaeyjar | 01:46 |
| kanzure | helloo | 01:47 |
| kanzure | so smari is basically the only one that does anything, then? | 01:47 |
| kanzure | I mean, that's the typical industrialized ratio, right? one per bajillion. | 01:47 |
| fenn | heh | 01:47 |
| fenn | there must be some reason they plonked a fablab down on this little island | 01:48 |
| fenn | wtf piratbyran isnt affiliated with pirate party? | 01:50 |
| kanzure | huh, there's govt funding/backing for their fab lab | 01:51 |
| kanzure_ | http://smari.yaxic.org/blag/2007/10/16/an-offer-you-cant-refuse/ | 01:52 |
| fenn | is that $500k? | 01:53 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, foreigners have problems with commas and turning them into periods | 01:55 |
| fenn | the only person in Iceland who knows anything about the Fab Lab project (namely, me). | 01:55 |
| kanzure_ | I heard that a fablab should be $15k | 01:55 |
| fenn | i dont know where that $15k figure comes from; it doesnt seem like enough | 01:55 |
| kanzure_ | maybe he's also doing shipping costs | 01:55 |
| kanzure_ | hrm. | 01:55 |
| kanzure_ | well, I'd link you, but I don't have access to all of my logs at the moment | 01:56 |
| kanzure_ | (laptop is still waiting for me to buy a power supply) | 01:56 |
| kanzure_ | but there was a page on the fablab site that had a cost table | 01:56 |
| fenn | there must be varying degrees of "fablab"-ness | 01:56 |
| fenn | a waterjet costs about $75k | 01:56 |
| fenn | so obviously that isnt included | 01:56 |
| fenn | but if "epilog laser and roland mill" qualifies as "fab-lab" then no thanks | 01:57 |
| kanzure_ | http://fab.cba.mit.edu/about/fab/inv.html | 01:57 |
| kanzure_ | " | 01:57 |
| kanzure_ | The current hardware specification (~$50k equipment and ~$10k materials):" | 01:57 |
| kanzure_ | software: http://fab.cba.mit.edu/about/fab/ | 01:58 |
| kanzure | I wonder why that software isn't listed as being included in fabuntu | 01:58 |
| fenn | wtf is fabuntu | 01:59 |
| fenn | "dude we got this name, its like 'fab' and 'ubuntu'" | 01:59 |
| kanzure | supposedly it's a linux distribution for fablabs | 02:00 |
| kanzure | http://fabuntu.org/ | 02:00 |
| fenn | yes i know that, but what makes it different and special and worth caring about | 02:00 |
| fenn | you dont need a whole distro just to install like 10 scripts | 02:01 |
| kanzure | i guess it's because they bothered to do domain squatting. | 02:01 |
| fenn | ok so lets stop talking about that | 02:02 |
| kanzure | shouldn't we be the ones doing fabuntu though? | 02:02 |
| kanzure | I was thinking of doing a hostile takeover related to om. | 02:02 |
| fenn | i dont have any association to fablab project | 02:03 |
| kanzure | hostile fork, I mean. | 02:03 |
| fenn | hostile fork of what? | 02:03 |
| kanzure | well they have a 90 MB ISO on their server so supposedly it's full of something | 02:03 |
| * fenn snorts | 02:03 | |
| kanzure | and if it's just ubuntu.iso renamed to fabuntu.iso, nevermind | 02:03 |
| fenn | if you think it's worth bothering with, by all means, go bother with it | 02:03 |
| fenn | those guys on OM sure can write a lot | 02:04 |
| kanzure | I guess I was hoping I'd get some actuators and similar mechanisms to play around with to bootstrap repositories and such, and have a linux distribution for managing printers to print out papakura instructions, and the like | 02:04 |
| kanzure | heh | 02:04 |
| kanzure | which guys? I'm partly responsible for a lot of random writing myself | 02:05 |
| fenn | uh, the people who write to the list... primarily you paul fawzi and maybe cravens | 02:05 |
| fenn | i'm behind like 150 messages | 02:06 |
| fenn | oh well | 02:06 |
| fenn | when did email get so hard to read | 02:06 |
| kanzure | of all things, om needs an announce list. | 02:06 |
| kanzure | doesn't p2pfoundation use an announce list? | 02:06 |
| fenn | om-yammer | 02:07 |
| fenn | om-philosophy/politics | 02:07 |
| fenn | hah | 02:07 |
| fenn | om-files | 02:07 |
| fenn | .bin uploads :P | 02:08 |
| * fenn takes a break from internet | 02:08 | |
| kanzure | I wouldn't mind om-files. | 02:08 |
| fenn | "show me the code" | 02:08 |
| kanzure | actually I think we're to a point where it's ok to do some coding for the repository packages | 02:10 |
| kanzure | with my 'weaver' idea, the "to which level does this turtle belong" problem is solved | 02:10 |
| kanzure_ | various data sets - http://aws.amazon.com/publicdatasets/ "coming soon" - annotated human genome, pubchem 3D lib, economics db, and 'upload data set' form. | 02:12 |
| fenn | i was messing with some units wrapper stuff the other day: http://fennetic.net/git/skdb.git | 02:13 |
| fenn | (it doesnt do anything yet) | 02:13 |
| kanzure_ | http://fennetic.net/git/gitweb.cgi yay random guessing. | 02:14 |
| fenn | yes, that | 02:14 |
| kanzure_ | http://fennetic.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=skdb.git;a=blob_plain;f=skdb.py;hb=HEAD | 02:14 |
| kanzure_ | ah. | 02:14 |
| fenn | so i was trying to come up with an example file format specification for skdb but i got stuck on the units | 02:15 |
| kanzure | well that's awkward. | 02:15 |
| fenn | Unum wasnt that cool after all | 02:15 |
| fenn | so i went back to the original plan of GNU units | 02:15 |
| kanzure | btw, feel free to GPL some of the files in http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/ (the 3D models) | 02:15 |
| kanzure | and if you need me to resave the files in a better, more widely known format, just ask. | 02:15 |
| kanzure | that would be good as an example file to contain in the 'tar' of an skdb package | 02:16 |
| fenn | do it yourself :P | 02:16 |
| kanzure | but unfortunately linking that up to information on things like ports or assembly info is | 02:16 |
| kanzure | blah | 02:16 |
| kanzure | fine fine fine.. | 02:16 |
| fenn | COPYING | 02:16 |
| kanzure | hm? | 02:16 |
| fenn | 'all files in this directory are GPL2 or later' done | 02:16 |
| kanzure | Hi `tty` just got your email, am replying in a sec | 02:16 |
| `tty` | np, just reading more of your collected quotes | 02:17 |
| kanzure | fenn: done. | 02:17 |
| `tty` | some controversial in my view | 02:17 |
| kanzure | feel free to do a running commentary on them in here | 02:17 |
| kanzure | only if they're the good ones though I guess :) there are some that are obviously very stupid | 02:18 |
| `tty` | <<We do not see the world. What we do is we use any clue that our senses can provide us is to build a virtual analog model in our brain; the world we see is the world we build. (51:05).>> | 02:18 |
| `tty` | from Intense World Syndrome | 02:18 |
| fenn | i have no idea what any of that stuff is for.. they just look like demo files | 02:18 |
| fenn | class examples | 02:19 |
| kanzure | yep. | 02:19 |
| kanzure | no idea what they do either, I just draw them | 02:19 |
| kanzure | but supposedly that information could be converted to gcode | 02:19 |
| fenn | cool FEA simulation: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/2008-10-16_pillow_assembly-1.jpg | 02:19 |
| fenn | (bad design pillow block though) | 02:20 |
| kanzure | really? These are all from a workbook, so I'd like to hear. | 02:20 |
| kanzure | I'm sure I'm being poisoned | 02:20 |
| kanzure | `tty`: yeah, there's a lot of neuroscience not present in that | 02:20 |
| kanzure | `tty`: but there's some good neurophysiology on http://heybryan.org/school/buildingbrains/all.html just not linking up to 'virtual model building' quite. That quote came from a Henry Markram video on Google Videos. | 02:21 |
| kanzure | for the Blue Brain Project, the simulation of a mouse cortical column in 2005. | 02:21 |
| `tty` | a CCD is going to get every pixel as objectively as the CCD elements can record incoming photons as a signal .... | 02:22 |
| `tty` | somehow what the CCD records is similar to what my brain tells me I'm seeing | 02:22 |
| `tty` | i.e. all the pixels there.. my brain is not making it up | 02:23 |
| `tty` | I understand that my brain also approximates etc | 02:23 |
| kanzure | Yes, but realize also the studies of electrical stimulation on the surface of the cortex evoking various 'augmentations' to perceptions of reality, i.e. "what's going on" literally changes to you. | 02:24 |
| `tty` | of course, I've been on mushrooms | 02:24 |
| kanzure | Hrm, this is suffering from a lack of good verbiage. | 02:24 |
| `tty` | lol | 02:24 |
| `tty` | The problem I have is with their wording | 02:25 |
| kanzure | He was talking off the top of his head, so it's not the best prose. | 02:25 |
| kanzure | (twas a video, you see) | 02:25 |
| `tty` | right, by the way, does Paul frequent this chan? | 02:26 |
| kanzure | No, he refuses to. Nathan shows up sometimes though. | 02:26 |
| `tty` | he's an interesting dude... | 02:27 |
| kanzure | yeah, we like to keep those types of people around here :) | 02:27 |
| `tty` | did you start Open Manufacturing group on google? | 02:27 |
| kanzure | Nathan did, but before Open Manufacturing there was Open Virgle, which is where I found Paul | 02:28 |
| kanzure | and before Open Virgle, there was fenn and me in here yelling at each other :p | 02:28 |
| `tty` | and what kind of college degree that combines neuroscience with manufacturing engineering? like a B.S. with two concentrations? :) | 02:28 |
| kanzure | simultaneous major :) | 02:28 |
| `tty` | why these two? what's the connection? | 02:28 |
| kanzure | so I get to go to classes like 'Building Brains' and then hop over to mechanical studies | 02:28 |
| kanzure | Manufacturing engineering because that's where a large concentration of proprietary information remains ungoogleable, | 02:29 |
| kanzure | and computational neuroscience because of my fascination with brains, building brains, computer science, and various intersections therein. | 02:29 |
| `tty` | partial differential equations... remember those from my one grad course on neurophysiology | 02:30 |
| kanzure | There's a subtle connection in 'manufacturing brains' :-p. | 02:30 |
| kanzure | (that's where I start throwing up my arms laughing maniacly, btw.) | 02:30 |
| `tty` | back then (late 80's early 90s) the best model I found was a spin-glass based neural network | 02:31 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Computational_neuroscience | 02:31 |
| kanzure | Lots of models, software packages etc. are out now. | 02:31 |
| `tty` | SK... sherington kirkpatrick model i think.. and i spent 3 years digging into it | 02:32 |
| kanzure | Some of the big projects with many many millions of dollars these days (Blue Brain Project) are doing molecular-level details and wiring up giant cat brains and the like. | 02:32 |
| kanzure | Haven't heard of that one. | 02:32 |
| `tty` | comes from condensed matter physics-->spin glass phase--->simulated annealing (and quantum annealing) <-- self organizing phenomena --> combinatorial optimization | 02:33 |
| `tty` | very interesting... but | 02:33 |
| kanzure | Huh. | 02:33 |
| `tty` | eventually, i figured why not take a living brain and just wire it to some mechanical limbs | 02:34 |
| kanzure | Yeah, I have a fascination with some mechanical models of neurons. Condensed matter isn't on my list yet. | 02:34 |
| kanzure | right | 02:34 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/neuro/ talks about that | 02:34 |
| kanzure | such as manufacturing MEAs, microelectrode arrays, or even doing macroscopic electrodes that you can make with your hands (and then go see the trepanation studies, where people drill dangerous holes into their skulls) | 02:34 |
| kanzure | erm, not trepanation studies, just trepanation doers. | 02:35 |
| `tty` | well, if they focus their studies on interfacing with the spinal cord | 02:35 |
| kanzure | Re: mechanical models of neurons, one recent thing we've been looking into in here has been ultrasound stimulation of the brain via 600 to 700 kHz 1-watt low frequency low intensity ultrasound. http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Ultrasound_brain.pdf | 02:35 |
| kanzure | I think spinal cord would be more dangerous than drilling into the skull. | 02:36 |
| kanzure | Risk of paralysis, I mean. | 02:36 |
| `tty` | right.. hmm | 02:36 |
| kanzure | don't go all dr. octopus on me. | 02:36 |
| `tty` | heh | 02:36 |
| `tty` | I mean once they build a software model of the human brain that is 100% identical to the brain of a fetus at stage zero and let that thing grow | 02:37 |
| `tty` | then wouldn't it take just as much time to learn and grow into a child stage brain | 02:37 |
| kanzure | Embryonic development, and genetics, isn't yet typically integrated into the architectures. | 02:37 |
| fenn | before Open Virgle was luf-team | 02:39 |
| `tty` | i mean any human-brain-based electronic brain is useless without the "person" (the software that runs on that architecture) | 02:39 |
| kanzure | What? | 02:39 |
| fenn | but they got sidetracked with fuzzy UFO hippie stuff too much for my taste | 02:39 |
| `tty` | lol | 02:39 |
| `tty` | OK, so you build a neural network | 02:39 |
| `tty` | now you have to train it | 02:39 |
| `tty` | e.g. to recognize a given pattern | 02:39 |
| `tty` | You show it the letter L and it says C | 02:39 |
| `tty` | you tell it it's L | 02:40 |
| `tty` | you show it L again and it says B | 02:40 |
| `tty` | you tell it's L | 02:40 |
| `tty` | and so on | 02:40 |
| `tty` | until it can detect L anyway you write it | 02:40 |
| `tty` | nonlinear feedback | 02:40 |
| `tty` | so .. what good is copying the general structure of the brain without all the memories and learning etc | 02:41 |
| `tty` | whatever makes the "self" | 02:41 |
| `tty` | i never really understood that | 02:41 |
| kanzure | Because self is a folk psych concept anyway. see buddhism and other ancient writings on this. | 02:41 |
| fenn | because it's easier to manufacture neural network programs and the hardware to run them, than to manufacture new humans with all the responsibilities and legal red tape that goes with it | 02:42 |
| kanzure | At best what we can do is see what general cognitive architectures tend to work (i.e., point to me a good brain) and see what's going on there. While this doesn't preserve 'self', you can at least preserve some traces of your own personal functionality. | 02:42 |
| `tty` | how? there is the hardware and there is the software | 02:43 |
| `tty` | copying teh hardware I understand | 02:43 |
| `tty` | copying the software is not something I've seen discussed | 02:43 |
| fenn | not talking about copying the software, the software would bootstrap itself just like an organic baby would | 02:43 |
| `tty` | fetus | 02:43 |
| kanzure | Oh, it's discussed all the time with the molecular nanotech people, but it just doesn't work. | 02:44 |
| kanzure | http://minduploading.org/research.htm is fun to look at though | 02:44 |
| fenn | fetus is not born yet right? | 02:44 |
| kanzure | um | 02:44 |
| `tty` | yup, first stage of development | 02:44 |
| kanzure | http://minduploading.org/research.html | 02:44 |
| kanzure | Was a bad link, sorry. | 02:44 |
| `tty` | when you have two neurons you have a brain, more or less | 02:44 |
| fenn | ok, so i cant see a fetus doing much learning | 02:44 |
| fenn | anyway, brain scanning/mind uploading is a whole nother topic | 02:45 |
| kanzure | I'm surprised that I don't have a link on my site for this topic yet | 02:45 |
| `tty` | well, it can learn for sure, but basic patterns, and then you have genetics injecting "intuition" and "instinct" etc | 02:45 |
| kanzure | on the concepts of what to do about 'cloning' and 'keeping traces' | 02:45 |
| fenn | intuition and instinct get us into a lot of trouble | 02:45 |
| `tty` | yes but evolution insists on giving them to us | 02:46 |
| fenn | so? | 02:46 |
| * fenn points at the big "H+" sign in the topic | 02:46 | |
| -!- fenn changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: H+ http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing http://heybryan.org/ | 02:46 | |
| fenn | haha | 02:46 |
| `tty` | well, evolution tries different strategies | 02:46 |
| kanzure | The intense-world-syndrome paper talks about metabolism in neurons in some cases. One type of metabolism will make more anxiety-prone individuals, which turns into specific anxiety-typical behaviors. obsessive compulsive searching for instance. | 02:46 |
| `tty` | I think that describes me to some extent | 02:47 |
| `tty` | need new meds | 02:47 |
| kanzure | welcome to the club. | 02:47 |
| kanzure | `tty`: Without getting too involved, is it just anxety stuff? | 02:47 |
| `tty` | what do you mean? | 02:48 |
| `tty` | I have mild OCD | 02:48 |
| kanzure | Ah. | 02:48 |
| `tty` | non-destructive type | 02:48 |
| `tty` | for example | 02:48 |
| `tty` | (and this is something i share with many people .. and the more i discuss it the more people i find with similar or more fascinating symptoms) | 02:49 |
| kanzure | I'm ADHD and maybe an undiagnosed case of HFA or AS. | 02:49 |
| `tty` | When I walk I sometimes find myself having to avoid certain spots on the road or walk along certain paths | 02:49 |
| `tty` | not superstition | 02:49 |
| `tty` | much stronger | 02:49 |
| `tty` | my survival instinct is wired to my ass, by mistake i think | 02:50 |
| `tty` | or something like thaty | 02:50 |
| kanzure | Heh. | 02:50 |
| `tty` | i was speaking to a PhD guy from MIT the other day, and he said he sees laser beams | 02:50 |
| `tty` | and has to go in between | 02:50 |
| kanzure | Anyway, I think it's unfair that I don't have a page on my site about cloning + an alternative to waiting (perhaps forever) for 100% mind uploading. | 02:50 |
| kanzure | I'll have to remember to do write it. | 02:50 |
| `tty` | he imagines them.. and he has to also time is crossing the road with certain movement of people on the other side | 02:50 |
| `tty` | people are weird...teh smarter the werider | 02:51 |
| `tty` | i have a friend who can't look at me or anyone... I thought his eyes were crossed.. so i throw a ball for him to catch but his eyes followed it perfectly.. then I realized people with autism have that issue | 02:52 |
| fenn | unfortunately it doesnt go the other way (the weirder the smarter) | 02:52 |
| kanzure | yes, re: autism and eye contact. The faces .. they steal attention. | 02:52 |
| `tty` | well, rare and unique behavior (weird behavior) is always packing more new information that ordinary behavior | 02:53 |
| `tty` | so in that sense, the weirder the behavior the more new information it's packing | 02:53 |
| fenn | isnt that the definition? | 02:53 |
| `tty` | definition of what? | 02:54 |
| `tty` | i lost me | 02:54 |
| fenn | information | 02:54 |
| `tty` | everything is information... what isn't? | 02:54 |
| fenn | energy | 02:54 |
| kanzure | Ooh. | 02:54 |
| fenn | time | 02:54 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/infohoarding.html | 02:54 |
| kanzure | Try that, `tty`, for weird. | 02:54 |
| fenn | bah i can't find a good definiton of information | 02:55 |
| `tty` | energy definitely contains information... or is information.. depending on how you look at it | 02:55 |
| kanzure | Shannon has a log definition of information, and Boltzmann might also. | 02:55 |
| kanzure | Salthe has one somewhere too. I'd go with that. | 02:55 |
| `tty` | yes, but those definitions function within specific theories | 02:55 |
| `tty` | those theories unfortunately are theories | 02:56 |
| fenn | i love that name | 02:56 |
| fenn | "lotta lotass" | 02:56 |
| fenn | `tty`: at the risk of breaking my "no philosophy" rule; what isn't a theory? | 02:57 |
| `tty` | hehe | 02:57 |
| `tty` | let me see.... | 02:57 |
| `tty` | non-computable judgment | 02:57 |
| `tty` | has no theory | 02:57 |
| `tty` | theory in the formal sense i mean | 02:57 |
| * fenn suspects | 02:58 | |
| `tty` | like axioms, propositions, deductive reasoning, proof <-- theory | 02:58 |
| `tty` | if something is non-computable, can there be a theory that describe it? | 02:59 |
| fenn | yep | 02:59 |
| kanzure | (ask Wolfram?) | 02:59 |
| kanzure | or ask Turing I guess. | 02:59 |
| kanzure | Hrm. | 02:59 |
| fenn | godel | 02:59 |
| `tty` | wait a sec... | 02:59 |
| kanzure | well I was getting close :-/ | 02:59 |
| `tty` | all dont apply.. how are applying these? | 02:59 |
| `tty` | Wolfram is concerned with computation a la cellular automata | 02:59 |
| fenn | wolfram describes behaviors of systems that can't be known without running the systems | 03:00 |
| kanzure | Turing on universal computation, and Godel about completeness and consistency in computation. | 03:00 |
| `tty` | Godel concerned with meta mathematics or the logic of the logic used in mathematics | 03:00 |
| `tty` | Turing was concerned with the halting problem, that you can't always predict if a program executing on a turning machine will come to a halt.. major issue for cloud services that have free quota | 03:01 |
| `tty` | can't tell when someone will execute an endless loop that sucks up their entire quota | 03:01 |
| `tty` | and then they're off till next quota window... Google's appengine has this problem and it goes back to the Halting problem (turing) | 03:01 |
| fenn | well.. you could monitor the entire state of the system and see if it ever repeats, but that will use up an exponentially growin amount of memory | 03:01 |
| `tty` | MS has some research done in this area and some statistical techniques (brute force) ... they have to test device drivers for such things .. I read a paper a long a time about this but they weren't saying it's 100% guaranteed.. just better than nothing | 03:03 |
| kanzure | Oh? | 03:03 |
| kanzure | Sounds like an interesting reference. | 03:03 |
| `tty` | I never kept references like you do | 03:04 |
| kanzure | 15,000 bookmarks and counting :-/ | 03:04 |
| `tty` | cuz I grew up in a time when I didn't have a computer by me 24x7 and I used to actually read information printed on paper... | 03:04 |
| kanzure | I'm reading some Orion's Arm email, and they're talking about the Fermi Paradox. Todd Drashner is asking for a calculation of the likelihood of there being a civilization out there in all of the galaxies that happens to be in the night sky that happens to be engaging in a super high energy operation for us to observe at this exact observation moment. Makes things seem unlikely. :-/ | 03:05 |
| kanzure | paper, that's made out of cellulose right? | 03:05 |
| kanzure | ancient devil thing. | 03:05 |
| `tty` | so I'm still not used to using cut&paste to record stuff.. never developed that habit... sometimes i remember to bookmark stuff | 03:05 |
| * kanzure actually keeps paper stacked around him. | 03:05 | |
| `tty` | yup.. pulp media | 03:05 |
| `tty` | so re: wolfram | 03:06 |
| `tty` | I don't understand what you mean exactly... it involves computing the behavior | 03:06 |
| `tty` | system doesn't have to execute/run | 03:06 |
| `tty` | but if the behavior is non-computable (not hard to compute or computable if given infinite time and space but just non-computable) | 03:07 |
| `tty` | i.e. there is no way to compute it | 03:07 |
| `tty` | if you look at Penrose' Orchestrated Objective Reduction | 03:07 |
| `tty` | or Penrose OR ... | 03:07 |
| `tty` | same with Bohm | 03:07 |
| `tty` | both picked up where Einstein left as far as "God doesn't play dice w/ universe" | 03:07 |
| `tty` | but Penrose' version is pretty neat... no religious stuff | 03:08 |
| kanzure | I avoid Penrose. | 03:08 |
| `tty` | i don't think he was religious ... his version is this: | 03:08 |
| fenn | so i was thinking about how to keep the internet from being shut off in vestmanneyjar, and came up with a mesh network of buoys in the ocean, with kite/windmill/microwave transmitters attached, for transmitting broadband over the horizon | 03:09 |
| kanzure | kite? | 03:09 |
| fenn | like the flying windmill idea | 03:09 |
| fenn | tethered electric helicopter | 03:10 |
| fenn | except in this case there's no power being transmitted back down | 03:10 |
| percent | hey | 03:10 |
| percent | Faggots | 03:10 |
| percent | What the hell are you doing? | 03:10 |
| fenn | go fuck youself | 03:10 |
| percent | Are you still fucking up? | 03:10 |
| percent | hi fenn :D | 03:10 |
| fenn | hello | 03:10 |
| `tty` | er... | 03:10 |
| kanzure | fenn: I wonder who owns their fiber optics under the sea. | 03:11 |
| kanzure | `tty`: ignore the troll. | 03:11 |
| percent | Wait, kanzure is calling me a troll? | 03:11 |
| percent | Christ, it only took you four months | 03:11 |
| kanzure | Everyone knows it, just not the newbies. | 03:11 |
| percent | We have new people here? | 03:12 |
| kanzure | No. | 03:12 |
| fenn | mostly they just lurk, it seems | 03:12 |
| percent | Shows I've been paying attention. | 03:12 |
| fenn | have they figured out the source of the gamma ray bursts yet? | 03:13 |
| fenn | (re: fermi paradox) | 03:13 |
| fenn | imagine this scenario: you have an infinity warp drive, but whenever you use it, your position is given away by a gamma ray burst, so you have to move your colony/ship whatever randomly each time | 03:15 |
| fenn | so you pick a place where it will take a sufficiently long time for the light cone to reach unfriendly eyes | 03:15 |
| `tty` | when is BSG back? | 03:16 |
| * `tty` thinking out loud... | 03:16 | |
| `tty` | any BSG fans here? | 03:16 |
| fenn | no | 03:16 |
| kanzure_ | Sort of. | 03:16 |
| fenn | i've never seen it, but it sounds sufficiently annoying to not investigate | 03:17 |
| `tty` | lol | 03:17 |
| `tty` | that's what i said at first | 03:17 |
| kanzure_ | blah. outgrowth of ISDC2008 - international space development conference - http://www.espacetickets.com/ | 03:17 |
| `tty` | the drama's too much but ... | 03:17 |
| kanzure | These guys think tourism is the way to get space-stuff going. | 03:17 |
| fenn | it's too bad sub-orbital != space | 03:17 |
| kanzure | oh, it's with XCOR. | 03:18 |
| fenn | someone just needs to put up a nice big rotovator | 03:18 |
| fenn | maybe if i say it enough it will become true | 03:18 |
| kanzure | god this is a terrible website | 03:18 |
| -!- percent is now known as jihaaaaaad | 03:18 | |
| kanzure | maybe even worse than the WTA | 03:18 |
| fenn | "Its a matter of building from simpler compounds found anywhere to create metals." :( :( :( | 03:27 |
| kanzure | I feel a great disturbance in the force. | 03:28 |
| fenn | who starts a group about manufacturing and doesn't know what a metal is? | 03:28 |
| kanzure | is this even possible though | 03:29 |
| kanzure | occam's razor must be applicable here | 03:29 |
| kanzure | like, maybe he's had a stroke | 03:29 |
| kanzure | fenn: you should propose your idea to smari. | 03:39 |
| kanzure | or at least mention it. | 03:39 |
| kanzure | oh, I haven't considered whether they have available satellite infrastructure | 03:39 |
| fenn | satellite is just as vulnerable as fiber | 03:40 |
| kanzure | stealing the dish is easy. | 03:41 |
| fenn | we can't send up our own satellite any time soon | 03:41 |
| kanzure | some other company will step in and offer service | 03:41 |
| kanzure | right, I know | 03:41 |
| kanzure | but you're trying to come up with something that they need | 03:41 |
| kanzure | that simultaneously attaches us to them somehow | 03:41 |
| fenn | i'm planning on massive trade sanctions | 03:41 |
| `tty` | what's iceland's problem ? | 03:41 |
| kanzure | it's blowing up | 03:41 |
| fenn | rich people stole all their money | 03:41 |
| `tty` | so their currency is now useless? | 03:42 |
| `tty` | but they still have natural resources, no? | 03:42 |
| fenn | so we are trying to take advantage of the situation by creating a free "state" | 03:42 |
| `tty` | or a free community at least | 03:42 |
| kanzure | they don't have much in the way of natural resources | 03:42 |
| kanzure | fenn was talking about basalt houses/furniture a bit before you came in | 03:42 |
| fenn | there are no trees, but there's geothermal energy and a lot of really intelligent people | 03:42 |
| kanzure | also a wicked language. | 03:43 |
| fenn | who needs trees anyway :P | 03:43 |
| kanzure | stupid trees | 03:43 |
| `tty` | k, so you can't export geothermal energy but you can use it | 03:43 |
| fenn | i wonder how long it would take to grow a dome's worth of bamboo in a dome | 03:43 |
| `tty` | they have cheap electricity? | 03:43 |
| kanzure | you don't get it | 03:43 |
| fenn | well, you can export it, but nobody's bothered to try to figure out how | 03:43 |
| fenn | i guess this is why there is an aluminum smelting industry there | 03:44 |
| kanzure | cheap electricity => not if the companies are dying | 03:44 |
| `tty` | hmm.. so what's your idea? | 03:44 |
| kanzure | well, Smari asked all of us on om how to apply om stuff to the situation | 03:44 |
| kanzure | openmanufacturing = om | 03:44 |
| fenn | `tty`: http://vinay.howtolivewiki.com/blog/global/free-guptastan-583 | 03:44 |
| fenn | kanzure: is that what he asked? | 03:45 |
| kanzure_ | did you read his email? | 03:45 |
| `tty` | what if there is no short term solution? are they willing to invest labor and energy into a long term solution? | 03:45 |
| fenn | "how can the principles being talked of here be made | 03:45 |
| fenn | applicable immediately in a useful way?" | 03:45 |
| `tty` | heh | 03:46 |
| fenn | i guess i sort of ignored the short term | 03:46 |
| fenn | honestly i dont even see what the problem is in the short term | 03:47 |
| kanzure | right, that's why I was asking about their food situation and living and so on | 03:48 |
| kanzure | are the fault lines going to open up and swallow them into a hell, that sort of thing? | 03:48 |
| `tty` | well, if a complex system, such as an economy, collapses.... you can't even put it back together the way it was.. imagine a complex physical sytructure collapses... how do you put it back? the now-collapsed economy didn't even come with a diagram showing how it was constructed... and who really knows how its constructed? probably no one single person | 03:48 |
| kanzure | or is it just an opportunity to push some openness into the mix | 03:49 |
| `tty` | so you guys thinking right | 03:49 |
| `tty` | something new and radical has to take its place | 03:49 |
| kanzure | like something with diagrams! | 03:49 |
| kanzure | gasp | 03:49 |
| kanzure | how radical! burn him! | 03:49 |
| fenn | metadata, wah! | 03:49 |
| `tty` | heh | 03:49 |
| `tty` | you guys are right.. this is very interesting... a small country collapses | 03:50 |
| jihaaaaaad | hey faggots what's up | 03:50 |
| fenn | not just any small country | 03:50 |
| `tty` | and it presents an awesome opportunity | 03:50 |
| fenn | a small country with lots of really smart people | 03:50 |
| `tty` | right, and nice women too | 03:51 |
| fenn | ...and they're white, which probably makes more difference than it should | 03:51 |
| `tty` | difference to whom? oh, yeah... right | 03:51 |
| fenn | to attracting tourists | 03:51 |
| `tty` | unlike new orleans | 03:51 |
| fenn | to not getting nuked and then ignored by the international media | 03:51 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNFftA1Pry0 <- Most awesome yell ever. Check out 2:36 and a bit after that. | 03:52 |
| jihaaaaaad | Mmm, racism | 03:52 |
| `tty` | so the idea of starting a new "free/barter or new money" community there is viable | 03:52 |
| fenn | jihaaaaaad: thanks for reminding me | 03:52 |
| kanzure | `tty`: why money. | 03:52 |
| `tty` | incremental | 03:53 |
| `tty` | nothing radical | 03:53 |
| `tty` | first reaction = throw away money | 03:53 |
| `tty` | = reactiveness? | 03:53 |
| `tty` | after the shock you tend to react and after that you settle somewhere between he two extremes | 03:53 |
| `tty` | one extreme is money as it is today | 03:54 |
| `tty` | another extreme is no money | 03:54 |
| `tty` | middle ground = something in between, e.g. smarter money, more fair money, etc | 03:54 |
| fenn | i think new money is the best long term solution | 03:54 |
| fenn | by which i mean more than just a scalar quantity | 03:54 |
| `tty` | i don't know... well | 03:54 |
| fenn | "i dont want your blood money" | 03:54 |
| `tty` | I put out this long ass post: | 03:54 |
| `tty` | http://evolvingtrends.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/p2p-social-currency-money-20/ | 03:55 |
| kanzure | fenn: you could make a campaign out of that line. | 03:55 |
| `tty` | about multidimensional value system for local exchange and energy based money, no interest, etc | 03:55 |
| fenn | i guess superman never learned CPR? | 03:55 |
| `tty` | hehe | 03:56 |
| kanzure | at least neo dug around a bit | 03:56 |
| `tty` | they can always go back to the oldest profession | 03:57 |
| fenn | new-amsterdam | 03:57 |
| kanzure | New New York | 03:57 |
| fenn | not sure why vinay doesnt like prostitution | 03:57 |
| `tty` | new Bankog | 03:58 |
| kanzure | probably because he doesn't like how much money they mak | 03:58 |
| kanzure | *make | 03:58 |
| kanzure | a good whore apparently can make upwards $20k/night | 03:58 |
| fenn | ah i thought you were going to say New-Babylon :) | 03:58 |
| fenn | kanzure: conditions have to be right for that | 03:58 |
| `tty` | new babylon brings up images of hairy women | 03:58 |
| kanzure | of course. | 03:58 |
| kanzure | don't ask me how the porn industry sorts itself out. still a mystery to me. | 03:59 |
| `tty` | ppl like elliot spitzer | 03:59 |
| `tty` | that's how | 03:59 |
| `tty` | $4k/hr | 03:59 |
| `tty` | k, the ppl here are going to watch 24 .. new episode or some shit... | 04:00 |
| `tty` | nice chatting.. keep talking about iceland.. some of the ideas will definitely be tried there.. I'm sure of it.. people have lost so much they have nothing to lose trying new ideas | 04:01 |
| kanzure | So you've made good progress. :) One quote out of the entire site. | 04:01 |
| kanzure | at this rate ybit will remain champion, or something | 04:01 |
| kanzure | (ybit was doing the same thing a few months ago) | 04:01 |
| `tty` | who's ybit? | 04:01 |
| kanzure | ybit's in the channel, he hangs. :) | 04:02 |
| `tty` | what's "One quote out of the entire site" ... your site? | 04:02 |
| `tty` | you have a ton of quotes there | 04:02 |
| kanzure | Well you mentioned something about coming in to do running commentary on the site as you read through it. | 04:02 |
| `tty` | oh yeah.. | 04:02 |
| fenn | ybit was attempting to do a complete traversal of heybryan.org | 04:02 |
| `tty` | i have ADD too | 04:02 |
| kanzure | ah, it takes ADHD to read heybryan.org | 04:03 |
| kanzure | the H stands for H+ ;-) or something. | 04:03 |
| `tty` | i didn't mean that | 04:03 |
| * fenn couldnt stomach that crap :) | 04:03 | |
| ybit | DON'T DO IT tty | 04:03 |
| kanzure | hahah | 04:03 |
| `tty` | lol | 04:03 |
| ybit | it will f' your life up | 04:03 |
| ybit | :) | 04:03 |
| `tty` | well, he has a great collection.. and I like the electronics projects,,, the pic stuff... | 04:03 |
| `tty` | gtg guys... l8r | 04:04 |
| kanzure | Wait 'til you start reading http://heybryan.org/books/ | 04:04 |
| ybit | note: kanzure made all the art himself | 04:04 |
| `tty` | ') | 04:04 |
| kanzure | wait what? | 04:04 |
| `tty` | dzzt. | 04:04 |
| ybit | hehe, kidding | 04:04 |
| kanzure | sad that people leave. | 04:05 |
| ybit | sad that people don't realize there isn't a life aside from the internet :) | 04:07 |
| fenn | i've looked for it and i see no evidence | 04:08 |
| kanzure | besides the hunger pains, that is | 04:08 |
| fenn | ah, i ration food to myself on a "push" model | 04:08 |
| kanzure | hm? | 04:09 |
| fenn | hence all the whining about having eaten too much ice cream etc | 04:09 |
| kanzure | scheduled eating times? | 04:09 |
| kanzure | yeah, the pull model doesn't really work well for me | 04:09 |
| ybit | push your stomach's load capacity to the limits? | 04:09 |
| kanzure | since it doesn't align with the cafeteria schedule really | 04:10 |
| kanzure | who closes a university cafeteria at 7 pm anyway? | 04:10 |
| kanzure | and opens at 11 am on the weekends? | 04:10 |
| ybit | wow | 04:10 |
| jihaaaaaad | It's insane, isn't it? | 04:10 |
| ybit | i bet the fast food restaurants had something to do with that :) | 04:10 |
| kanzure | There's one renting a section of the first floor / garage level. | 04:10 |
| kanzure | and then on the other side of the block is everything ever. | 04:11 |
| fenn | do they require you to pre-pay for meals? (at exorbitant prices) | 04:11 |
| kanzure | about $500 for an unlimited meal plan | 04:11 |
| kanzure | and it's all-you-can-eat. | 04:11 |
| fenn | eh that's not bad | 04:11 |
| fenn | at IU they had "points" which were basically dollars that you couldn't get back | 04:11 |
| kanzure | true, but for running back home to eat, spending 20 minutes trip time for that, things get annoying | 04:11 |
| kanzure | this is off campus though, | 04:12 |
| kanzure | but technically just across one street from campus. | 04:12 |
| kanzure | there's "bevo bucks" here for their own money system | 04:12 |
| kanzure | apparently if I was living on campus, my bevo buck account would have been filled with some starting points | 04:12 |
| fenn | i thought you were in a dorm | 04:12 |
| kanzure | I am. | 04:12 |
| fenn | an off-campus dorm? | 04:13 |
| kanzure | yes. | 04:13 |
| fenn | that doesnt make any sense | 04:13 |
| kanzure | http://thecastilian.com/ | 04:13 |
| kanzure | oh wait | 04:14 |
| kanzure | wrong about the meal plan | 04:14 |
| kanzure | it's $300 on top of the basic meal package | 04:14 |
| gene | so Kanzure | 04:38 |
| kanzure | ? | 04:38 |
| gene | I just talked with one of my friends in biochem, he says that it's electrical engineering without the electricity | 04:39 |
| kanzure | it=biochem? | 04:39 |
| gene | and that you can tag an organism with a sequence to make it export a certain protein | 04:39 |
| kanzure | that's kind of why there's biobricks | 04:39 |
| gene | biochemistry | 04:39 |
| kanzure | right, there's certain transporter molecules | 04:39 |
| gene | Unfortunately he doesn't know how | 04:39 |
| kanzure | erm, transporter proteins | 04:40 |
| kanzure | the trick of molecular biologists is to biotinylate everything for sticking them together | 04:40 |
| kanzure | and for passing them through the membrane, there's | 04:40 |
| kanzure | blah, I know this one | 04:40 |
| gene | vesicles? | 04:40 |
| kanzure | No, there's an actual transporter protein. | 04:40 |
| kanzure | not just vesicles, not integral proteins, not ion-like channels | 04:41 |
| gene | so how do you pick out one protein? | 04:41 |
| kanzure | but rather it's like 'capping' | 04:41 |
| gene | oh | 04:41 |
| gene | so add some cap sequence to the protein? | 04:41 |
| kanzure | well, biochemists study cells forever and do ridiculously excruciating purification studies to figure out what molecules cause what | 04:41 |
| kanzure | is it rhodopsin? | 04:42 |
| gene | the eye protein? | 04:43 |
| kanzure | hrm, definitely not. | 04:43 |
| gene | it's a light sensing compound | 04:45 |
| gene | looks useful | 04:45 |
| kanzure | there's research that people do with these proteins, and even basic nucleic acid sequences to cap a protein (not amino acids), that transport things in and out of emulsions | 04:45 |
| fenn | it's called a targeting sequence for mRNA, if that helps | 04:45 |
| gene | hmm.... | 04:45 |
| gene | light sensory proteins | 04:45 |
| kanzure | isn't there a protein thingy that does this fenn? | 04:45 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_peptide | 04:46 |
| kanzure | gene: but this isn't going to get lipids out of the cell | 04:46 |
| kanzure | there has to be a way to open lipid-passing pores in the membrane of some sort. | 04:46 |
| kanzure | I suggest looking into the KEGG/KEBB pathway databases, or things like reactome.org | 04:46 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/List_of_bioinformatics_databases | 04:47 |
| gene | now if we could figure out how to chain that light sensing protein to something else, to make that messed up polymerase | 04:47 |
| kanzure | so you should go read the Ellington paper | 04:47 |
| kanzure | about bacteria + photographs | 04:47 |
| kanzure | what they did is engineered the bacteria to have a reaction pathway based off of sensing light | 04:47 |
| kanzure | so there was some signal cascade network inside with GoFP and such | 04:48 |
| gene | ellington was the one who did that? | 04:48 |
| kanzure | well, his students | 04:48 |
| gene | who made an FSM? | 04:48 |
| kanzure | and it was his picture that got photographed, of all things | 04:48 |
| gene | in bacteria | 04:48 |
| kanzure | finite state machine? I'm not sure | 04:48 |
| kanzure | there was Mujanovic though | 04:48 |
| kanzure | who made tic-tac-toe | 04:48 |
| fenn | gene: "The large geometry change associated with azobenzene photoisomerization has also been used to control protein activity with light. " | 04:48 |
| kanzure | with dna | 04:48 |
| gene | no Flying Sphagetti monster | 04:48 |
| kanzure | oh, same thing | 04:48 |
| fenn | fsm/fsm same thing | 04:48 |
| fenn | the universe is a giant fsm | 04:49 |
| kanzure | no, I mean, ellington same thing | 04:49 |
| kanzure | anyway, | 04:49 |
| gene | no wasn't him | 04:49 |
| gene | http://fsmbacteria.ytmnd.com/ | 04:49 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 04:49 |
| kanzure | ytmnd hosting it? wtf | 04:49 |
| gene | first link on google for FSM bacteria | 04:49 |
| kanzure | you know what | 04:50 |
| kanzure | I haven't looked into this yet | 04:50 |
| kanzure | there might be enough characterized biobricks to do something like this | 04:50 |
| kanzure | though the lipid transport mechanism is the hard part | 04:50 |
| gene | why not put protein x in vesicles, and attach magnetosomes to the vesicle? | 04:51 |
| gene | so you can magnetically seperate it | 04:51 |
| kanzure | to my knowledge you can't just ask stuff nicely to go into a vesicle | 04:51 |
| gene | ok | 04:52 |
| gene | my bad | 04:52 |
| kanzure | the way that neurons do it though is interesting | 04:52 |
| gene | that's right neurons do it | 04:52 |
| kanzure | the vesicles smash into the neuronal membrane inside and then have a release mechanism much like signaling, except kind of reversed due to proteins attached to the inner membrane or something. | 04:52 |
| kanzure | actually, ignore that whole message. | 04:53 |
| gene | grow neurons in a dish, have them just pump out neurotransmitters and harvest them | 04:53 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/Biology/ has a few books on neuroscience that would be good to read. | 04:53 |
| kanzure | well, a better way to do that would be to just splice the reaction networks into bacteria | 04:53 |
| kanzure | I was looking into this for growing-your-own-neurotransmitters | 04:53 |
| kanzure | nobody's doing it yet, I'm not sure why | 04:53 |
| gene | well we're doing prokaryotes so that's a bit irrelvant | 04:53 |
| kanzure | right, but don't put it into neurons, you want to optimize the production like crazy. | 04:54 |
| kanzure | although with neurons you could stimulate their release, which I guess is a partial advantage | 04:54 |
| kanzure | but anyway :) | 04:54 |
| gene | so we want polymerases | 04:54 |
| kanzure | huh? | 04:54 |
| gene | let's start with that | 04:54 |
| gene | we want dna polymerases | 04:54 |
| kanzure | what are you talking about now? | 04:54 |
| gene | those are the proteins we should focus on first for seperation | 04:55 |
| kanzure | for separation, from what ? | 04:55 |
| gene | everything | 04:55 |
| kanzure | are we just talking about a general polymerase supply? | 04:55 |
| gene | that isn't DNA polymerase | 04:55 |
| gene | yeah | 04:56 |
| kanzure | aptamers would be good at this since polymerase's shape shouldn't change | 04:56 |
| kanzure | or antihistamines engineered a bit | 04:56 |
| gene | yeah | 04:56 |
| kanzure | there's actually a way to do single-protein expression via in vitro transcription | 04:56 |
| kanzure | something where you'd attach the in vitro transcription mechanisms to the surface | 04:57 |
| kanzure | (biotinylated to the surface of course :-) | 04:57 |
| gene | heh | 04:57 |
| fenn | or you could just get one of those 1" round cells from the bottom of the ocean | 04:58 |
| gene | they're apparently abunch of single cells I believe | 04:59 |
| * fenn wonders if they taste the same as in his dream | 04:59 | |
| kanzure | first I'd like to see some videos of them. | 04:59 |
| gene | oh and fenn, you might be able to turn algae to epoxy | 04:59 |
| gene | http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5973082/claims.html | 04:59 |
| fenn | i'm afraid that i'm going to have to make a patent-speak translator some day | 05:00 |
| gene | Kanzure, you could probably get samples of them | 05:00 |
| gene | the researcher who discovered them is on campus | 05:00 |
| gene | One of the most interesting things about them is that they roll | 05:01 |
| gene | very few organisms roll | 05:01 |
| gene | to get around | 05:01 |
| kanzure | tumbleweed! | 05:01 |
| kanzure | they're organisms! | 05:01 |
| kanzure | it's a conspiracy. | 05:01 |
| gene | tumbleweed doesn't roll under it's own power | 05:02 |
| kanzure | bah! ;-) | 05:02 |
| fenn | neither do sea blobs | 05:02 |
| kanzure | That's what makes it a conspiracy | 05:02 |
| gene | they do | 05:02 |
| gene | just REALLY SLOWLY | 05:02 |
| fenn | i thought they had legs or pseudopods anyway | 05:02 |
| gene | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQslM6ZAdnU | 05:03 |
| gene | videos | 05:03 |
| gene | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr8sEjwEeow&feature=related | 05:03 |
| kanzure | Neat, our natsci dept has youtube videos. | 05:03 |
| gene | yeah | 05:04 |
| gene | another cool thing about these things is that they roll and they are protists, this means that any decision making is LOCAL, as opposed to global | 05:05 |
| kanzure | I wonder at what pressure this was at and their feed. I'd totally do an aquarium for blobs. | 05:05 |
| * fenn feels cheated | 05:05 | |
| kanzure | ? | 05:05 |
| fenn | talking + photographs != video | 05:05 |
| kanzure | yeah :/ | 05:06 |
| gene | yes it is | 05:06 |
| gene | it is a low framerate video with sound | 05:06 |
| kanzure | it's not hard to hook up a scope to a cam corder, gene | 05:06 |
| kanzure | do they still call them camcorders? | 05:06 |
| gene | no | 05:06 |
| kanzure | "video phones", is it? | 05:06 |
| gene | yeah, I don't know if they've done much in the way of dissections | 05:07 |
| gene | they have video from the ROV though | 05:07 |
| fenn | heh "plop" | 05:07 |
| kanzure | Next we'll see "successfull plopulation of seablobs" | 05:07 |
| gene | sorta hard to dissect something under a couple hundred PSI | 05:08 |
| kanzure | ah, is that what it's living at? | 05:08 |
| gene | no idea | 05:08 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/aeon_flux_leisure_uA9yYwKN8BU.flv | 05:09 |
| kanzure | Aeon flux was a terrible movie, should I click? | 05:09 |
| fenn | yes, the movie was terrible | 05:09 |
| fenn | it's a bit like what happened with starship troopers | 05:09 |
| kanzure | except a few billion times worse | 05:10 |
| kanzure | although I never knew there was an original story | 05:10 |
| kanzure | to aeonflux | 05:10 |
| fenn | dunno if i mentioned but aeon flux is my hero | 05:10 |
| gene | Aeon Flux is a cyberpunk movie with good eyecandy does it matter if it is bad | 05:10 |
| kanzure | what ? it wasn't cyberpunk, it was just some chick with dyed hair | 05:10 |
| fenn | the original series was super h+ biopunk | 05:11 |
| kanzure | there was an original series? huh. | 05:11 |
| fenn | the movie was just some weaksauce hollywood bullshit | 05:11 |
| kanzure | are we talking about the same thing? | 05:11 |
| gene | I never watched it | 05:12 |
| fenn | crap. don't ever expect something to stay on youtube | 05:14 |
| kanzure | I've lost my fair share of videos due to youtube takedown. | 05:15 |
| gene | can't watch FLV | 05:15 |
| kanzure | go get a real media player, like mplayer | 05:15 |
| gene | can't find information on the depth the blob lives at | 05:15 |
| gene | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6VRT-4TYRF97-6-3&_cdi=6243&_user=108429&_coverDate=11%2F20%2F2008&_sk=%23TOC%236243%239999%23999999999%2399999%23FLA%23display%23Articles_in_Press%23tagged%23Volume%23first%3D0%23date%23(20_November_2008)%23&view=c&_gw=y&wchp=dGLbVzW-zSkzV&_valck=1&md5=d35fc896e99a1d2d67c0e07c66ce097d&ie=/sdarticle.pdf | 05:15 |
| kanzure | god I hate sciencedirect's URL structure | 05:16 |
| gene | yeah I do | 05:16 |
| kanzure | they try so hard to obfuscate their internal structure | 05:16 |
| kanzure | all sorts of md5 hashes.. | 05:16 |
| gene | use google to crack it | 05:17 |
| kanzure | No, there's an md5 check sum database on rizon. | 05:17 |
| gene | heh | 05:17 |
| kanzure | But none of them were found, it's something greater than 10 characters apparently | 05:17 |
| gene | argh | 05:18 |
| gene | can't extract mplayer | 05:19 |
| fenn | add debian-multimedia.org to your /etc/apt/sources.list | 05:19 |
| fenn | deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny main | 05:20 |
| gene | I run windows | 05:20 |
| fenn | it will probably bitch about unsigned packages | 05:20 |
| fenn | oh well, sucks to be you then | 05:20 |
| gene | indeed it does | 05:20 |
| kanzure | man | 05:20 |
| kanzure | if only there was some way | 05:20 |
| kanzure | to freely download debian | 05:20 |
| fenn | if only there were such a thing as free software, that anyone could use | 05:20 |
| kanzure | and to freely order debian CDs. | 05:20 |
| kanzure | holy shit | 05:20 |
| gene | and I've had trouble installing debian | 05:20 |
| kanzure | we could be rich | 05:21 |
| gene | you know kanzure | 05:21 |
| kanzure | go for ubuntu then. | 05:21 |
| gene | yeah | 05:21 |
| kanzure | they have thousands of youtube videos. | 05:21 |
| kanzure | as if they wanted people to learn | 05:21 |
| gene | I will do that over the break | 05:21 |
| fenn | no, do it now while you have high speed net access | 05:21 |
| gene | I don't have bandwidth limits at home | 05:21 |
| gene | and I have discs at home | 05:21 |
| kanzure | what are you spending your bandwidth on? | 05:22 |
| gene | school | 05:23 |
| kanzure | No, really, what in particular? | 05:23 |
| gene | screw it | 05:23 |
| gene | browsing | 05:23 |
| kanzure | IRC isn't much, PDFs aren't much but less than a megabyte, | 05:23 |
| kanzure | browsing also isn't much | 05:23 |
| gene | Screw I'll download ubuntu right now | 05:24 |
| kanzure | I suggest you follow the instructions of a good youtube video, or a tutorial somewhere on the web for dual booting | 05:24 |
| fenn | bah "the complete animated collection" doesnt include the first season, which is the only good season | 05:24 |
| fenn | people sure know how to screw things up | 05:25 |
| gene | I need a blank CD, do you have one Kanzure? | 05:26 |
| kanzure | yes. | 05:26 |
| kanzure | but you should be able to do this by thumbdrive by the way | 05:26 |
| gene | how? | 05:27 |
| kanzure | that's what the tutorials are for. | 05:27 |
| fenn | also there's "wubi" | 05:27 |
| kanzure | ? | 05:28 |
| fenn | windows eradicator :) | 05:28 |
| fenn | no reboot necessary | 05:28 |
| kanzure | I wonder why I still haven't tried solidworks on wine. | 05:28 |
| gene | because ur lazy | 05:31 |
| kanzure | cool, Multi Theft Auto has gone GPL. | 05:31 |
| gene | hot dog, I do have a blank CD | 05:31 |
| gene | cool | 05:32 |
| gene | and my download might finish before 12 | 05:32 |
| fenn | Multi Theft Auto, is that a video game? | 05:32 |
| gene | which means that I beat the bandwidth limit | 05:32 |
| kanzure_ | `Last night, Nov. 22nd, veteran satellite observer Kevin Fetter video-recorded the backpack-sized bag gliding over his backyard observatory in Brockville, Ontario. "It was easily 8th magnitude or brighter as it passed by the 4th magnitude star eta Pisces," he says. Spaceweather's satellite tracker is monitoring the toolbag.'"` | 05:32 |
| kanzure_ | it's a mod to GTA 3 on windows | 05:33 |
| kanzure_ | so yes | 05:33 |
| gene | heh, still trying to mod games Kanzure? | 05:33 |
| kanzure_ | What? still? | 05:33 |
| kanzure_ | `One PhD student, ?yvind Brandtsegg, is a graduate of the jazz program and this article describes how has developed a computer program and a musical instrument for improvisation. ` | 05:33 |
| gene | oops didn't mean still | 05:33 |
| gene | oh hey do you want a cool physics sandbox thing kanzure? | 05:34 |
| fenn | phun? | 05:34 |
| gene | no rigidchips | 05:34 |
| gene | it's 3D | 05:34 |
| gene | people have made some really cool spaceship simulations in it | 05:35 |
| gene | http://www.iamas.ac.jp/~takeya04/softwareE.html | 05:35 |
| gene | winblows only | 05:35 |
| kanzure | I'll stick with ogre and friends. | 05:35 |
| gene | you can get it to work in wine | 05:35 |
| kanzure | how do you know that | 05:35 |
| gene | what's ogre? | 05:35 |
| gene | oh | 05:36 |
| gene | How do I know it works in wine? | 05:36 |
| gene | One of my friends did it | 05:36 |
| kanzure_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_engine#Open_source Box2D, bullet, Open Dynamics Engine, OPAL, Pal, Tokamak physics engine, Farseer physics engine, Physics2D.net, chipmunk, phyz. | 05:36 |
| kanzure_ | ogre is supposed to be there I think | 05:37 |
| fenn | rigidchips looks abandoned (2006 last update) | 05:37 |
| kanzure_ | oh, ogre is just graphics | 05:37 |
| fenn | ogre is more like scenegraph stuff | 05:37 |
| kanzure_ | `OPAL is a high-level interface for low-level physics engines used in games, robotics simulations, and other 3D applications. Features a simple C++ API, intuitive objects (e.g. Solids, Joints, Motors, Sensors), and XML-based file storage for complex objects.` | 05:38 |
| fenn | ODE + OGRE wouldnt be a bad way to go | 05:38 |
| kanzure_ | `The Physics Abstraction Layer (PAL) is an open source cross platform physical simulation API abstraction system. It is similar to a physics engine wrapper, however it is far more flexible providing extended abilities. PAL is free software, released under the BSD license.` | 05:38 |
| gene | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGhNSlgmaEg&feature=related | 05:38 |
| gene | rigidchips demo | 05:38 |
| kanzure_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Dynamics_Engine | 05:38 |
| kanzure_ | hm, ODE doesn't look bad | 05:38 |
| gene | rigidchips might be cool to port to ODE | 05:38 |
| kanzure_ | terrible name of course :) conflicts with actual ODEs in physics | 05:38 |
| kanzure_ | to port to ODE? | 05:39 |
| kanzure_ | what? | 05:39 |
| gene | rigidchips is just so easy to do | 05:39 |
| fenn | why bother | 05:39 |
| fenn | look at all those curly braces. obviously an inferior language | 05:39 |
| gene | there is also a visual editor for rigid chips | 05:40 |
| kanzure_ | I wonder if they even have a parser | 05:40 |
| kanzure_ | visual editors come with all sorts of engines. | 05:40 |
| gene | what's a parser? | 05:40 |
| kanzure_ | not a big deal. | 05:40 |
| kanzure_ | In computer science and linguistics, parsing, or, more formally, syntactic analysis, is the process of analyzing a sequence of tokens to determine their grammatical structure with respect to a given (more or less) formal grammar. | 05:40 |
| kanzure_ | In formal semantics, computer science and linguistics, a formal grammar (also called formation rules) is a precise description of a formal language - that is, of a set of strings over some alphabet. In other words, a grammar describes which of the possible sequences of symbols (strings) in a language constitute valid words or statements in that language, but it does not describe their semantics (i.e. what they mean). The branch of mathematics that i | 05:40 |
| kanzure_ | etc. | 05:40 |
| gene | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbpEVo1nuxU&feature=related | 05:40 |
| fenn | the lack of a hands-on chip manipulation mode is pretty lame if you ask me | 05:41 |
| gene | that's what the editor does | 05:41 |
| fenn | yes, i know. it's still lame | 05:41 |
| gene | there is also file you can get for editing chips in rigid chips | 05:42 |
| gene | you can write scenario and game files for rigidchips | 05:42 |
| gene | it's not that hard | 05:43 |
| gene | it's all based in lua | 05:43 |
| fenn | http://yade.wikia.com/wiki/Screenshots_and_videos | 05:44 |
| kanzure | oh please, lua is simple | 05:44 |
| kanzure | and cross-platform, so that's no excuse | 05:44 |
| gene | the physics is based in directx | 05:45 |
| kanzure | directx is a graphics library, not a physics engine | 05:45 |
| gene | yeah | 05:46 |
| gene | it is | 05:46 |
| kanzure | .. | 05:46 |
| kanzure | No it's not. | 05:47 |
| gene | Ok I am wrong | 05:47 |
| gene | the thing about rigidchips is that it is easy to use | 05:47 |
| gene | it's actually based on an old japanese videogame called panekit | 05:48 |
| fenn | hmm i remember "yade" being cooler for some reason | 05:49 |
| gene | http://code.google.com/p/openpanekit/ | 05:49 |
| gene | why is yade cooler? | 05:49 |
| fenn | because it's not rigid | 05:50 |
| gene | can you make a car in yade? | 05:50 |
| kanzure | anyway, part of the deal is that the skdb units are supposed to load up components that they need for simulation, not the other way around (centralized simulator thingy) | 05:51 |
| gene | what about a spaceship, or an airplane | 05:51 |
| kanzure | you have to design those things, gene | 05:51 |
| kanzure | software doesn't magically know :/ | 05:51 |
| gene | I know you do, that's the fun of rigidchips | 05:51 |
| kanzure | manually inserting data? | 05:51 |
| fenn | yay for building things out of little squares | 05:52 |
| fenn | with lua :( | 05:52 |
| kanzure | gah. | 05:52 |
| fenn | (SL has permanently turned me off to Lua) | 05:52 |
| kanzure | SL is using lua? huh. | 05:52 |
| kanzure | I got turned off of lua when I was making my superawesome MMORPG that did everything, including solved the universe | 05:52 |
| fenn | that's what all the user scripting is in | 05:53 |
| gene | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LfG3SHOeWc&feature=related | 05:53 |
| kanzure | so it was this giant OOP mess with scripting for everything, including keyboard movement | 05:53 |
| kanzure | (lua scripting in particular) | 05:53 |
| gene | all of that in the video is completely rigidchips | 05:54 |
| gene | even the visualization | 05:54 |
| fenn | that is a pretty cool video | 05:55 |
| kanzure | gene, it's not like we've been trying to impress you or anything but | 05:55 |
| gene | ok | 05:55 |
| kanzure | those types of things are like just loading up a few terrains, meshes and textures into a simulator | 05:55 |
| gene | yup | 05:56 |
| kanzure | and then animation skeletons and running the animation sequences | 05:56 |
| kanzure | so I don't see what the big deal is | 05:56 |
| gene | try out rigidchips | 05:56 |
| kanzure | any general engine is going to support this sort of thing | 05:56 |
| gene | it is like crack | 05:56 |
| kanzure | unless there's some particular physics that this supports that others don't | 05:56 |
| kanzure | heh, action sequence. | 05:57 |
| kanzure | I wonder if this is doing full number crunching. I sort of doubt that splash dynamics are being calculated. | 05:58 |
| fenn | the ships arent part of the physics model | 05:58 |
| fenn | poo | 05:58 |
| gene | no splash dynamics aren't being calculated | 05:58 |
| gene | they're just animation | 05:59 |
| gene | yeah they aren't fenn | 05:59 |
| gene | you might not be able to calculate splash dynamics in real time | 06:00 |
| kanzure | that's why I said that. | 06:00 |
| kanzure | Generally you can't. That would all be farm rendering stuff. | 06:00 |
| gene | maybe with that box of yours... | 06:01 |
| fenn | i dont think it would be impossible with today's hardware | 06:01 |
| kanzure | real time, without pre-rendering, and without lag? | 06:02 |
| fenn | using quadtrees and visual level of detail meshing | 06:02 |
| kanzure | for a thousand bullets a sec hitting the water? | 06:02 |
| kanzure | heh, quadtrees | 06:02 |
| fenn | wot | 06:02 |
| fenn | also GPGPU | 06:02 |
| fenn | or whatever its called | 06:02 |
| gene | well the way rigid chips does fluid dynamics is that it takes the orientation of the chip and how fast it's moving to calculate the force | 06:03 |
| kanzure | as opposed to actual CFD/FEA methods | 06:03 |
| gene | rigidchips also doesn't consider collisions between chips | 06:03 |
| fenn | aka no fluid dynamics | 06:03 |
| gene | yup | 06:03 |
| kanzure | .. | 06:03 |
| fenn | again.. what is the point? | 06:03 |
| gene | try out rigidchips fenn | 06:03 |
| kanzure | no collision detection either? | 06:03 |
| kanzure | wtf? | 06:03 |
| gene | between chips | 06:04 |
| gene | you know why? | 06:04 |
| gene | because it cause earlier versions to slow down a lot | 06:04 |
| gene | it's in the earlier versions but not the current | 06:04 |
| kanzure | "oh, well, since our algorithm sucks, we're not going to include it, even though it's a defining element of what this is supposed to be" | 06:04 |
| gene | you can do creative stuff with chips going through each other | 06:05 |
| kanzure | You have some bias with rigidchips? | 06:05 |
| gene | you can also simulate vision algorithms | 06:05 |
| gene | yes Kanzure, it is crack | 06:05 |
| gene | hey if you could help me make a better version that'd be great | 06:06 |
| fenn | so, besides cars and airplanes, what does it do? | 06:06 |
| fenn | is it even open source? | 06:06 |
| gene | zeppelins, machine guns, boats, submarines, tetris, tanks, anything you can think of | 06:07 |
| gene | no it's not open source, which sucks | 06:08 |
| fenn | how does tetris work without collision detection | 06:08 |
| gene | you connect a bunch of chips together in a grid formation, and write a program to make them change colors | 06:08 |
| kanzure | I don't get it. is this just some animation suite? if it's not actually doing any physics | 06:08 |
| kanzure | it looks like it's just executing skeletal animations. | 06:09 |
| gene | it's doing physics | 06:09 |
| kanzure | which isn't a big deal. | 06:09 |
| kanzure | what physics? not fluids, not collisions, what's left? | 06:09 |
| gene | collisions with the ground are simulated | 06:09 |
| gene | there are also jets, wheels, and balloons | 06:09 |
| kanzure | big deal, x=g * cos | 06:09 |
| fenn | heheh | 06:10 |
| fenn | isnt that f = m * a | 06:10 |
| fenn | - 9.8m/s^2 | 06:10 |
| kanzure | well, from what I've seen so far, he probably doesn't mean force | 06:10 |
| kanzure | and instead just means seeing a height variable (y, rather) decrement | 06:10 |
| kanzure | until it hits ground. | 06:10 |
| gene | force is taken into account | 06:10 |
| kanzure | but not collision | 06:10 |
| gene | Kanzure I'll just have to show it to you today | 06:11 |
| gene | especially the segway unicycle simulation and the dynamically balanced walker simulation | 06:12 |
| kanzure | fenn: but anyway, I think we already agreed that local simulation, where the python scripts provide some of the equations, would be ideal for what we wanted. | 06:14 |
| kanzure | even if overall it's all in the same visualization. | 06:14 |
| gene | I am not talking about using this for SKDB | 06:14 |
| gene | apply rigidchips to skdb would be stupid | 06:15 |
| fenn | kanzure: yes of course | 06:15 |
| fenn | that is how all of them work | 06:15 |
| kanzure | not according to OPAL | 06:15 |
| kanzure | http://opal.sf.net/ take a look at the list of features | 06:15 |
| kanzure | "supports joints!" | 06:15 |
| kanzure | "supports .. incline sensors!" | 06:15 |
| fenn | irrelevant | 06:16 |
| fenn | what i mean is the physics engine runs on the local computer | 06:16 |
| kanzure | maybe it's just bad marketing and they don't know how it works | 06:16 |
| fenn | so you can get discrepancies between two simulations across a laggy network | 06:16 |
| kanzure | huh? I wasn't talking about anything like networking | 06:16 |
| fenn | then what do you mean 'local simulation' | 06:16 |
| kanzure | model.skdb.tar => ode.py, my.cad | 06:16 |
| kanzure | ode.py being the code required for simulating this particular type of component or process | 06:17 |
| fenn | which does what | 06:17 |
| gene | cool | 06:17 |
| kanzure | hell if I know what model.skdb.tar has | 06:17 |
| fenn | no i mean, what is the output of the program | 06:17 |
| kanzure | wouldn't that be defined by the unum metadata for input/output | 06:17 |
| kanzure | the units metadata | 06:17 |
| kanzure | sort of. there's different levels of even that metadata I guess | 06:18 |
| fenn | i think we are talking about totally different things | 06:18 |
| fenn | but i cant figure out what you're on about | 06:18 |
| kanzure | maybe, it's because I don't have a strong example at the moment | 06:18 |
| kanzure | okay, let's use biobricks as an example | 06:18 |
| fenn | i'm talking about loading skdb data into a realtime physics sandbox | 06:18 |
| kanzure | in the SBML files there were ODEs to describe the reactions | 06:18 |
| kanzure | so these were attached to the individual SBML files | 06:18 |
| kanzure | within the SBML model databases | 06:18 |
| kanzure | now, to simulate many SBML models at once in a giant sandbox, your overall engine just goes through the list of actors | 06:19 |
| kanzure | right? | 06:19 |
| fenn | i have no idea about simulating chemical reactions | 06:19 |
| gene | now that would be fun | 06:19 |
| kanzure | that should be variable, whether it's chemical or mechanical or whatever | 06:19 |
| fenn | seems like there would be a lot of diffusion and CFD calculations going on | 06:19 |
| kanzure | sure. | 06:19 |
| kanzure | (apparently not in hy3s/synbioss though. they are doing some simpler things it turns out) | 06:20 |
| fenn | yeah because it's not relevant for 99% of the stuff chemists do | 06:20 |
| fenn | but it does matter for figuring out whether your boat will rust or your engine will detonate or whatever | 06:20 |
| kanzure | that's just the 'different levels of abstraction' stuff, ignroe that for what we're talking about at the moment. | 06:21 |
| fenn | why would you want a realtime SBML simulation | 06:21 |
| kanzure | that would be a one time simulation I guess. | 06:22 |
| gene | why? | 06:22 |
| kanzure | I mean, nothing to tick in the clock | 06:22 |
| gene | realtime is really cool | 06:22 |
| gene | just play around with rigidchips fenn | 06:22 |
| gene | it's addicting | 06:22 |
| kanzure | gene: I'm not sure you know what we're talking about. | 06:22 |
| fenn | that's precisely why i havent downloaded it gene | 06:22 |
| gene | people make will make incredibly models with incredibly advanced control systems in rigidchips | 06:23 |
| gene | oops | 06:23 |
| gene | people will make models with incredibly advanced control systems in rigidchips just for fun | 06:23 |
| fenn | for gene only: http://tinyurl.com/5q88rh | 06:23 |
| gene | you could get people to test out SKDB components over their lunch break | 06:24 |
| fenn | except rigidchips sucks | 06:24 |
| fenn | it doesnt even do physics | 06:24 |
| fenn | so we wouldnt be "testing" anything | 06:25 |
| gene | I know it doesn't | 06:25 |
| gene | just take rigid chips as a model for development | 06:25 |
| kanzure | then why .. | 06:25 |
| fenn | dammit gene i came up with this idea first | 06:25 |
| gene | it doesn't do magnetism and E-fields | 06:25 |
| gene | ok | 06:25 |
| gene | but I've got it to do gravity | 06:26 |
| kanzure | oh that's depressing. In Superman 2, Superman flies the American flag back to the White House, where they show the fountains in free-frame while they wire him over the top of the scene. How depressing. | 06:26 |
| kanzure | *freeze-frame | 06:26 |
| fenn | heh this reminds me of paul http://tinyurl.com/5q88rh | 06:27 |
| fenn | oops | 06:27 |
| fenn | not that, DONT CLICK ON THE LINK | 06:27 |
| fenn | this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HighGrow | 06:27 |
| gene | heh | 06:29 |
| gene | rigidchips is like that but more addictive | 06:29 |
| gene | it is a level 10 memetic hazard | 06:29 |
| wrldpc | Anyone know the name of the biotech restaurant in England? | 08:18 |
| fenn | dammit all i can think about is iceland | 10:51 |
| jm | are you out of money? ;-) | 11:53 |
| kanzure_ | the Vice Chair and Professor of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, University Hospital Bonn | 12:04 |
| kanzure_ | has gotten back to me re: the TMS mailing list | 12:04 |
| kanzure_ | http://brainstimulation.info/ is the latest site. | 12:04 |
| fenn | By STEPHANIE NANO | 12:05 |
| fenn | must be a superhero | 12:05 |
| kanzure_ | "however, the initial plan was absolutely to follow up the Vestmannyjar fablab with one in Reykjavik" | 12:07 |
| kanzure_ | (10:13:00 PM) Elektronikwizard: the reason is | 12:07 |
| kanzure_ | (10:13:07 PM) Elektronikwizard: because Smari is from the Westman Islands | 12:07 |
| kanzure_ | (10:13:08 PM) Elektronikwizard: and also | 12:07 |
| kanzure_ | (10:13:22 PM) Elektronikwizard: because the Norway fab lab is in the middle of nowhere and that works extremely well | 12:07 |
| kanzure_ | (10:14:01 PM) Elektronikwizard: however, the initial plan was absolutely to follow up the Vestmannyjar fablab with one in Reykjavik | 12:07 |
| kanzure_ | ' | 12:20 |
| kanzure_ | Open source CRT wall holder. Can hold even the biggest heaviest CRT and is extremely stiff. Not adjustable. Requires only 3 holes in the wall. Provides means for storing computer cables.' | 12:20 |
| kanzure_ | http://ronja.twibright.com/atlas.php | 12:22 |
| kanzure_ | huh, it's on ronja | 12:22 |
| kanzure_ | ew, PNGs | 12:22 |
| kanzure_ | oh, but with DXF and qcad | 12:22 |
| fenn | icky welds | 12:51 |
| fenn | that could easily be done with the smoosh/drill/bolt method | 12:51 |
| fenn | i'd like to make a rapid space frame cad system | 12:53 |
| fenn | like you have a mesh to approximate and it puts vertices on the surface of that mesh, using as many identical pieces as possible | 12:53 |
| * fenn mumbles something about min-a-max | 12:53 | |
| fenn | i'm so putting that book online | 12:54 |
| kanzure | What book? | 13:16 |
| kanzure | also, that sounds like the animation skeleton substitution thingy, or the one that makes up the skeleton after viewing a mesh | 13:16 |
| kanzure | wonder if blender has a module for that | 13:17 |
| kanzure | I don't want to say 'yet' because I'm also not sure how popular this technique is | 13:17 |
| fenn | book = "structure in nature is a strategy for design" | 13:40 |
| mib_1kzstd | so my thinking is that the open money architecture allows for the transition into a gift economy, thoughts? | 16:25 |
| * mib_1kzstd is ybit | 16:25 | |
| -!- mib_1kzstd is now known as ybit-school | 16:25 | |
| UtopiahGHML | open money architecture? | 16:26 |
| ybit-school | www.openmoney.info | 16:27 |
| ybit-school | it allows for anyone to create their own currency | 16:27 |
| ybit-school | a currency by the open money definition is a formal information system that allows communities to see and interact with flows | 16:28 |
| UtopiahGHML | how does it fit with existing social and technical infrastructures like VISA and such? | 16:29 |
| ybit-school | well, if visa wanted to create their own community currency they could. and open money allows them to deploy their community on any social networking site | 16:33 |
| ybit-school | they could create multiple currencies, it wouldn't have to be just a geographically based currency (regional, national, global) | 16:34 |
| ybit-school | http://openmoney.info/sophia/index.html explains how there are different levels of flow in systems | 16:36 |
| ybit-school | simply, it's yet another tool to bring about sane living | 16:38 |
| UtopiahGHML | ok, I will read that later on, basically it's a framework to manage your currency within a community? | 16:38 |
| ybit-school | right | 16:39 |
| ybit-school | and i'm out | 16:40 |
| kanzure- | Hello. | 16:57 |
| -!- gene_ is now known as gene | 18:45 | |
| gene | hello kanzure | 20:06 |
| kanzure- | Hello. | 20:18 |
| kanzure- | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Kamen | 20:26 |
| kanzure- | Kamen is currently single, claiming he's "married to his inventions." His longest relationship was with a woman by the name of K.C. Conners. His primary residence is a hexagonal, shed style mansion he has dubbed Westwind[2], located in Bedford, New Hampshire, just outside of the larger city of Manchester. | 20:26 |
| kanzure- | The house has at least four different levels and is very eclectically conceived, with such things as hallways resembling mine shafts, 1960s novelty furniture, spiral staircases and secret passages, an observation tower, a fully-equipped machine shop, and a huge cast-iron steam engine which once belonged to Henry Ford built into the center atrium of the house (which is actually small in comparison), which Kamen has had converted into a Stirl | 20:26 |
| kanzure- | Kamen owns two helicopters, which he regularly uses to commute to work, and has a hangar built into the house as well. | 20:26 |
| kanzure- | His company, DEKA, annually creates intricate mechanical presents for him. Recently, the company created a robotic chess player, which is a mechanical arm attached to a chess board, as well as a vintage-looking computer with antique wood, and a converted typewriter as a keyboard. In addition, DEKA has recently received funding from DARPA to work on a brain-controlled prosthetic limb called the Luke Arm[3]. | 20:27 |
| kanzure- | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dumpling_Island | 20:27 |
| kanzure- | Huh, he seccedded. | 20:27 |
| kanzure- | The island has a lighthouse and a replica of Stonehenge, and Kamen has invented a constitution, flag, and national anthem, as well as a navy (consisting of a single amphibious vehicle) for his "kingdom". | 20:28 |
| kanzure- | Huh, he did FIRST robotics? | 20:28 |
| kanzure- | "with his own currency in increments of pi" | 20:29 |
| kanzure- | Teletrol Systems - Official website for Teletrol Systems, a Dean Kamen company that manufactures building automation technologies. | 20:31 |
| kanzure- | http://www.teletrol.com/ | 20:31 |
| kanzure- | also did Segway. Huh. Odd fellow. | 20:32 |
| procto | you'd never heard of dean kamen? | 20:58 |
| procto | dang | 20:58 |
| kanzure | Woah. Scroll lock is like a retardation button. | 23:10 |
| kanzure | Austin Metal & Iron. hrm. | 23:11 |
| kanzure | Jim Shapiro | 23:11 |
| xp_prg | kanzure you going to try to go to the synth bio sandpit on VA on 3/30/2009? | 23:27 |
| ybit | paul fernhout could learn a lesson or two from me, wouldn't you say kanzure? ;) | 23:46 |
| ybit | yes, i have stooped to idling the past few weeks, my apologies | 23:47 |
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