| --- Day changed Tue Dec 09 2008 | ||
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/books/labmusic/dj_inphinity/ <- Me likes. (am uploading, there's 15 of them.) | 00:32 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure_ | SLASHDOT: "Nobel Winner Says Internet Might Have Stopped Hitler" *picture of Hitler* | 01:08 |
| kanzure_ | .. :'( Slashdot has gone down the tubes. | 01:08 |
| kanzure_ | "Godwin says this discussion is done now." | 01:08 |
| kanzure_ | Nobel Winner Says, "Internet Might Have Stopped Hitler From Being Effective" | 01:08 |
| kanzure_ | Godwin says, "Hitler Stops the Internet From Being Effective" | 01:08 |
| kanzure_ | It's apparent then that if the Internet were around back then, it and Hitler(and maybe the entire Universe with them) would cease to exist as soon as they met. Or maybe their existences are just mutually exclusive (in time). Or maybe...maybe...Hitler IS the Internet!11!! *POP* | 01:09 |
| kanzure_ | *brains ooze down chest* | 01:09 |
| kanzure_ | Hm | 01:13 |
| kanzure_ | http://pilsenprole.blogspot.com/2008/12/links-to-press-on-republic-windows.html | 01:13 |
| kanzure_ | "Here is a continually updated list of links to press stories on the ongoing worker occupation at Republic Windows & Doors..." | 01:13 |
| kanzure_ | " | 01:13 |
| kanzure_ | Republic Windows workers have been staging a sit-in at the Chicago plant since Friday over vacation and severance pay they say they are owed. The company told workers on Tuesday that Bank of America canceled Republic's line of credit because of a severe downturn in business at the plant, and that they would be out of jobs by the end of the week." | 01:13 |
| kanzure_ | " | 01:13 |
| kanzure_ | As union officials vowed to seek damages over the abrupt shutdown that left about 300 people jobless, people who apparently have ties to the financially strapped Republic Windows formed a limited liability corporation in Illinois last month, Echo Windows & Doors, that has bought a similar plant in western Iowa." | 01:13 |
| kanzure_ | I wonder what's costing these places so much. | 01:14 |
| kanzure_ | " | 01:14 |
| kanzure_ | "I'm in shock. I'm sad. I'm angry," Cabrera said. "I never imagined that after being open 45 years this business would close. All I want is what I worked for. I want my money."" | 01:14 |
| kanzure_ | I wonder how much of Bank of America's foot in this was for IP and bullshit like that ;-) stuff solveable with some OMy goodness. | 01:15 |
| kanzure_ | "Workers have another very practical reason for guarding the plant--to make sure that management would no longer be able to move out critical equipment. In recent weeks, important and expensive gear had disappeared--including brand new presses that showed up on the loading dock one day, but were never installed." | 01:21 |
| kanzure | Hi fenn. | 02:20 |
| fenn | i think my connection's stable again now | 02:22 |
| fenn | will be moving to a new house soon, hope the internet there is as painless as it was here | 02:22 |
| fenn | (i.e. just bandwidth, no nosy ISP doing traffic filtering) | 02:22 |
| kanzure_ | " | 02:28 |
| kanzure_ | d. Hands on experience in computing and manufacturing is a national security issue. The USA needs to know how to manufacture its own goods. I would offer as exhibit A, World War II. It's handy for national security when you have a ton of manufacturing centers that can be quickly converted to produce for wartime needs. Indeed, has the USA had a better manufacturing base, maybe we wouldn't have had to wait for five years and four thousand dead to get de | 02:28 |
| kanzure_ | ead to get decent armoured vehicles into combat in Iraq and Afghanistan." | 02:28 |
| kanzure_ | Wait, seriously? | 02:28 |
| kanzure_ | http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=1742825 Indiana going f/oss on school computers | 02:30 |
| fenn | cool, they were doing a pilot program the last couple years in bloomington | 02:31 |
| willPow3r_ | that F-18 crashed a freaking mile from my house | 02:32 |
| fenn | i'm more impressed with the one-laptop-per-child than with the decision to use linux | 02:32 |
| kanzure | willPow3r_: Did you go see it? | 02:34 |
| willPow3r_ | didn't have to. it came to me | 02:34 |
| kanzure | well now. | 02:34 |
| fenn | did you hear it? | 02:34 |
| willPow3r_ | yeah, thought it was an earthquake @ first | 02:34 |
| kanzure_ | http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=Multimachine_%26_Flex_Fab Samuel Rose wants to package this into an open hardware project repository format (see om-dev) | 02:35 |
| kanzure_ | huh | 02:35 |
| kanzure_ | so the openfarmtech people are finally willing to participate | 02:35 |
| kanzure_ | about damn time | 02:35 |
| kanzure_ | http://opensourcemachine.org/ | 02:36 |
| kanzure_ | http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/ | 02:36 |
| kanzure_ | http://openlathe.wikidot.com/start | 02:36 |
| kanzure_ | I don't get it. | 02:36 |
| kanzure_ | where are my design files | 02:36 |
| kanzure | gah | 02:56 |
| kanzure | what have they done to my precious | 02:56 |
| kanzure | http://fablab.af/ | 02:56 |
| fenn_ | how long has afghanistan fablab existed? | 03:11 |
| -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn | 03:11 | |
| fenn | so i think i have more concrete info on my gingery wiki than that "open lathe" page | 03:15 |
| fenn | about how to build a lathe | 03:15 |
| kanzure | that's unfortunate. | 03:15 |
| * fenn shrugs | 03:15 | |
| kanzure | Sam gave it as an example of something that he wanted to package up | 03:15 |
| fenn | its funny to see the same thought processes | 03:15 |
| kanzure | but I don't see any files though, that would qualify for inclusion in a repository | 03:16 |
| fenn | first you need a design | 03:16 |
| kanzure | I don't see any | 03:16 |
| fenn | there isnt one | 03:16 |
| kanzure | gee | 03:16 |
| kanzure | did you see my proposal in the email? | 03:16 |
| kanzure | "let's start with a screw" | 03:16 |
| kanzure | I think I have a GPL'd screw from class | 03:16 |
| fenn | hmm i dont need your solidworks crap | 03:16 |
| kanzure | we can convert to something else methinks | 03:17 |
| fenn | but anyway i was working on skdb screw class a couple weeks ago | 03:17 |
| fenn | then i ran into units and got distracted | 03:17 |
| fenn | fwiw i think the multimachine is a godawful piece of crap | 03:19 |
| fenn | this guy at least has a clue: http://www.mfgx.com/blogs/opensource | 03:21 |
| kanzure | what are those screenshos? | 03:22 |
| kanzure | and what's that "open source team" pic? | 03:22 |
| gene_ | ??? | 03:22 |
| fenn | jorge barrera's crew i guess | 03:22 |
| kanzure_ | http://www1.eafit.edu.co/wiki/index.php/Herramientas_de_Manufactura_Dise?o_Abierto <-- spammed.. | 03:23 |
| fenn | " Remember this is simply a mockup," and the projects are instructables | 03:23 |
| gene_ | So kanzure you have that huge table of properties right? | 03:23 |
| kanzure | Table of properties? | 03:24 |
| kanzure | ew, instructables | 03:24 |
| kanzure | wtf is wrong with them | 03:24 |
| gene_ | yeah, you might be able to make it into a game | 03:25 |
| gene_ | http://www.offworld.com/2008/12/everything-is-pixelated-scribb.html | 03:25 |
| kanzure | what Table of properties? | 03:25 |
| gene_ | material properties | 03:25 |
| kanzure_ | http://www1.eafit.edu.co/wiki/index.php?title=Herramientas_de_Manufactura_Dise%C3%B1o_Abierto&oldid=1194 <- had to go back in the history to find a non-spammed version .. 2.1 MB of history .. bah | 03:25 |
| kanzure_ | gene_: you mean the matweb.com rip? | 03:25 |
| gene_ | it's just a video game with a whole bunch of objects that have properties and stuff | 03:25 |
| gene_ | yeah | 03:26 |
| gene_ | maybe SKDB could do something similar | 03:26 |
| fenn | how many turtles | 03:27 |
| gene_ | what in the video game | 03:28 |
| gene_ | probably a lot | 03:28 |
| gene_ | half the way down | 03:28 |
| gene_ | Doing automatically might be hard though... | 03:29 |
| * fenn yawns | 03:29 | |
| gene_ | ok | 03:29 |
| fenn | they could at least use cyc or something | 03:30 |
| fenn | instead of reinventing the wheel | 03:30 |
| gene_ | what is cyc? | 03:30 |
| fenn | it describes relationships between concepts | 03:31 |
| fenn | like donut is a food | 03:31 |
| fenn | cop is a human | 03:31 |
| fenn | human is an animal | 03:31 |
| fenn | animals eat food | 03:31 |
| gene_ | you mean there is something like that out there already | 03:31 |
| fenn | yeah for 30-odd years now | 03:32 |
| gene_ | a huge database of concepts? | 03:32 |
| gene_ | I wonder if that's what they used.... | 03:32 |
| fenn | probably not | 03:32 |
| gene_ | link? | 03:32 |
| fenn | http://opencyc.org/ | 03:32 |
| fenn | the interface needs some work i think | 03:33 |
| gene_ | wow | 03:33 |
| gene_ | a neural interface would be cool with cyc | 03:33 |
| fenn | they have ~3 million concepts and several thousand relationships | 03:33 |
| fenn | and lots of jargon :( | 03:34 |
| gene_ | any metadata? | 03:34 |
| fenn | what do you mean? | 03:34 |
| fenn | like who input the data? | 03:34 |
| fenn | i dont really know much about it, tbh | 03:35 |
| gene_ | I mean like math describing what torque is | 03:35 |
| fenn | yes, but that's just a relationship | 03:35 |
| gene_ | f=ma | 03:35 |
| fenn | FAIL | 03:35 |
| gene_ | that's not torque but it could be if I change the vars | 03:35 |
| fenn | actually i would be surprised if you got it right, since the equations wrong in all the textbooks | 03:36 |
| fenn | torque = distance*force/angle, they always forget or ignore the /angle | 03:37 |
| gene_ | could you make a program that could figure out what formulas to make something | 03:37 |
| gene_ | not engineering textbooks on statics | 03:37 |
| fenn | it's called an inference engine, and, a resounding "maybe" | 03:37 |
| gene_ | there is such a thing? | 03:37 |
| fenn | supposedly cyc has one built in | 03:37 |
| fenn | hmm and check out hod lipson's four-arm starfish robot | 03:38 |
| gene_ | I say make me a transportation method capable of transporting 1000 tons of lunar regolith using only x power allotment | 03:38 |
| fenn | not quite what you mean i guess | 03:38 |
| gene_ | already seen it | 03:39 |
| fenn | it's not a djinn | 03:39 |
| gene_ | even went to a hod lipson talk | 03:39 |
| gene_ | a tranportation method moves by reacting against the ground | 03:39 |
| gene_ | yeah no kidding | 03:39 |
| gene_ | not yet at least... | 03:40 |
| fenn | hey gene read some rocketry introductions please | 03:40 |
| fenn | or your own formula.. sheesh | 03:40 |
| gene_ | limit to transportation methods that move by reacting against the ground | 03:41 |
| fenn | why would you do that? | 03:41 |
| fenn | and what does that even mean | 03:41 |
| kanzure | to figure out what the equation is of something, don't use an inference engine, use symbolic regression analysis | 03:41 |
| fenn | i.e. does an electrodynamic tether count? | 03:41 |
| fenn | or what about a laser sail with the laser on the "ground" | 03:42 |
| kanzure | "make me a method capable of transporting 1000 tons of lunar regolith using only x power allotment" - that's what some of the skdb stuff is to do | 03:42 |
| gene_ | well I want a general purpose method for moving regolith around, rockets don't make that much sense on the moon due to power consumption | 03:43 |
| * fenn thought "moving around" meant in orbit | 03:43 | |
| gene_ | catapults might work | 03:43 |
| gene_ | but could get dust on solar panels if there are any | 03:44 |
| fenn | what do solar panels have to do with anything | 03:44 |
| gene_ | how else do you power a lunar replicating factory | 03:44 |
| fenn | and what do catapults have to do with dust? | 03:46 |
| gene_ | nuclear reactors? | 03:46 |
| fenn | could use solar thermal | 03:46 |
| gene_ | lunar regolith is very powdery | 03:46 |
| gene_ | you could transport lunar regolith from point A to point B using catapults | 03:46 |
| fenn | or perhaps some way to take advantage of earth's gravity well using orbiting tethers | 03:46 |
| fenn | and dumping moon dust onto earth | 03:46 |
| gene_ | I am referring to moving moon dust from point A on the lunar surface to point B lunar dust processing facility | 03:47 |
| fenn | for example your tether could pass near a superconducting coil at periapsis and convert its momentum into electrical energy | 03:48 |
| fenn | said coil being on the lunar surface | 03:48 |
| gene_ | but can dumb robots build it? | 03:48 |
| fenn | can dumb humans build it? | 03:48 |
| fenn | maybe dumb humans with robots | 03:49 |
| gene_ | ideally you wouldn't involve humans | 03:49 |
| fenn | why not | 03:49 |
| fenn | we've got billions of em | 03:49 |
| gene_ | total automation | 03:50 |
| fenn | yeah yeah whatever | 03:50 |
| fenn | why do you want to truck dust all over the moon | 03:50 |
| fenn | there's dust everywhere already | 03:50 |
| gene_ | http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/ | 03:51 |
| gene_ | this is why | 03:51 |
| fenn | looks like he's got it already figured out | 03:53 |
| fenn | maybe you should start with what you're trying to do | 03:53 |
| fenn | instead of starting with the answer | 03:53 |
| gene_ | we could have had replicators already if they hadn't stopped funding this project | 03:54 |
| gene_ | oh yeah do you know that microchips with bigger features are more radiation tolerant? | 03:54 |
| kanzure | Why are you all over the place? | 03:55 |
| kanzure | I'm with fenn | 03:55 |
| kanzure | maybe you should start with what you're trying to do :/ | 03:55 |
| gene_ | what making a lunar tractor? | 03:56 |
| kanzure | is that what you're trying to do? | 03:57 |
| kanzure | why are you making a lunar tractor, what's the actual project | 03:57 |
| gene_ | what's the first thing you do when you build a building these days kanzure? | 03:58 |
| kanzure | ?? | 03:58 |
| gene_ | if you answered move some dirt around you are correct | 03:58 |
| kanzure | so you want to build a building? | 03:58 |
| kanzure | moving dirt is far from the first step | 03:58 |
| gene_ | well actually pave a whole bunch of the moon | 04:00 |
| gene_ | level it first though | 04:00 |
| kanzure_ | http://lists.debian.org/deity/1997/09/msg00007.html <-- fenn, some of the orignal deity mailings re: package management in debian | 04:01 |
| kanzure_ | Heh. I should just copy these emails word-for-word. hehe. | 04:02 |
| fenn | pave the moon! chrome the earth! | 04:02 |
| kanzure_ | http://lists.debian.org/deity/1997/09/msg00010.html | 04:02 |
| kanzure_ | first design doc | 04:02 |
| gene_ | heh now you've caught on to my evil plan fenn | 04:02 |
| kanzure_ | oh | 04:02 |
| kanzure_ | this was after dselect | 04:02 |
| gene_ | I actually favor dyson roads though | 04:02 |
| kanzure_ | "" | 04:02 |
| kanzure_ | "Dyson Road Corporation Home Page. ... Dyson Road Corporation provides superb document authoring services focused on technical and business documents. .." | 04:03 |
| fenn | what is deity? | 04:03 |
| kanzure_ | http://lists.debian.org/deity/1997/09/msg00015.html version 0.0.3 | 04:03 |
| fenn | is it a design document helper? | 04:03 |
| kanzure_ | well I thought deity==dpkg | 04:03 |
| gene_ | a giant ring that you drive a car so fast on it that it stays on it | 04:04 |
| kanzure_ | guess not. | 04:04 |
| kanzure_ | " | 04:04 |
| kanzure_ | a) Deity should be a replacement for dselect." | 04:04 |
| fenn | dselect is like apt, but less cool | 04:04 |
| kanzure_ | "dselect is one of the oldest front-ends to dpkg, and the bulk of its development happened when it was originally written by Ian Jackson, who wrote it alongside dpkg." | 04:04 |
| kanzure_ | ah, I've used dselect like .. once. | 04:04 |
| fenn | its like that redhat package list that came with the old install disk | 04:04 |
| kanzure_ | hrm, so Ian did dpkg on his own? | 04:05 |
| kanzure_ | oh, Ian Murdock != Ian Jackson | 04:05 |
| fenn | gwah | 04:05 |
| fenn | what did ian murdock do then | 04:06 |
| fenn | debian is nothing without dpkg | 04:06 |
| kanzure_ | hrm.. | 04:06 |
| kanzure_ | (btw, Murdock is the most awesome name ever. I have a kitten named Murdock.) | 04:06 |
| fenn | not named after ian i hope | 04:06 |
| kanzure_ | well, named after rupert more than anything | 04:07 |
| kanzure_ | tyrannical news organization owner. | 04:07 |
| kanzure_ | but also serves as a nice reference to metalocalypse | 04:07 |
| kanzure_ | "In the Metalocalypse series, Dethklok is depicted as an extremely popular and successful death-metal band, described by their adversaries, the Tribunal, as the "world's greatest cultural force." The band's fan base includes millions of metal fanatics, who frequently endanger themselves to watch the band perform live.[4][5] With their widespread commercial success and lucrative sponsorship contracts, Dethklok is ranked as the world's seventh largest e | 04:08 |
| kanzure_ | conomy. | 04:08 |
| gene_ | heh | 04:08 |
| gene_ | It's only a matter of time before this actually happens | 04:09 |
| gene_ | a band getting so rich they can afford arcologies | 04:09 |
| kanzure_ | yes, death to fans! | 04:09 |
| kanzure_ | "Arcology, a portmanteau of ecology and architecture, is a set of architectural design principles aimed toward the design of enormous habitats " | 04:09 |
| gene_ | yup got it right | 04:10 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: "dpkg was originally created by Matt Welsh, Carl Streeter and Ian Murdock, first as a Perl program, and then later the main part was rewritten in C by Ian Jackson in 1993. " | 04:10 |
| kanzure_ | mailing list archives only start in 1998 though | 04:11 |
| kanzure_ | yikes.. | 04:11 |
| kanzure_ | and in case you all missed it, what I've been listening to for the last 5 hours - http://heybryan.org/books/labmusic/dj_inphinity/ | 04:11 |
| fenn | i wonder if there was a usenet group or something | 04:11 |
| fenn | those are big mp3 file | 04:12 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.ouaza.com/wp/2007/07/24/assembling-bits-of-history-with-git/ | 04:12 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: mplayer should be able to stream methinks | 04:12 |
| kanzure_ | it's not too terribly interesting, but if consistency counts .. | 04:12 |
| kanzure_ | "The dpkg team has a nice history of changing VCS over time. At the beginning, Ian Jackson simply uploaded new tarballs, then CVS was used during a few years, then Arch got used and up to now Subversion was used. When the subversion repository got created, the arch history has not been integrated as somehow the conversion tools didn't work." | 04:12 |
| gene_ | http://www.imeem.com/tag/dj%20inphinity/ | 04:12 |
| gene_ | Imeem, because I'm still in school | 04:13 |
| kanzure_ | "After being exposed to the club scene in 1999, Inphinity knew it was his dream to be the one in the dj booth rocking the crowd. Instantly, he began spending countless hours learning the art of djing and working closely with production programs. Inphinity has always been told that he has an ear for dance music, so it ?s no wonder his underground mix cds caught the attention of clubbers, club owners, and promoters and shortly after it turned into a 5 | 04:14 |
| kanzure_ | anyway, where are these ancient dpkg files anyway | 04:15 |
| kanzure_ | debian backports might have them? | 04:15 |
| gene_ | http://www.imeem.com/ravenhunt/music/ibX1kx14/hidenori_shoji_one_ahead_system_cosmo_terminal/ | 04:16 |
| gene_ | catchy techno | 04:16 |
| kanzure_ | gene_: you know about di.fm, right? | 04:16 |
| kanzure_ | http://di.fm/ | 04:16 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/books/music/radio/ | 04:17 |
| kanzure_ | http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.13.25/changelog | 04:17 |
| kanzure_ | hah | 04:17 |
| kanzure_ | changelogs back to 1994 | 04:17 |
| kanzure_ | rock on, ian :) | 04:17 |
| gene_ | what's all this with debian? | 04:18 |
| kanzure | So they have changelogs, but not the sour ce. | 04:26 |
| kanzure | *source. | 04:26 |
| kanzure | how is that useful?? | 04:26 |
| fenn | there is source too | 04:28 |
| kanzure | linky | 04:28 |
| gene_ | what are you trying to do? | 04:28 |
| kanzure_ | http://packages.debian.org/source/etch/dpkg I only see for the latest version. | 04:28 |
| kanzure_ | trying to find some old dpkg sources, or the mail archives | 04:29 |
| gene_ | why? | 04:29 |
| kanzure_ | nastolgia? | 04:29 |
| fenn | hmm old source | 04:29 |
| fenn | perhaps you want the repository instead | 04:29 |
| kanzure_ | nostalgia | 04:29 |
| gene_ | seems like a good reason to me | 04:29 |
| kanzure_ | fenn, ? | 04:29 |
| fenn | revision control system | 04:30 |
| gene_ | btw did I tell you about my business card I'm working on | 04:30 |
| fenn | should have old versions of the source | 04:30 |
| kanzure_ | fenn, any idea where? | 04:30 |
| kanzure_ | gene_: if it transforms into an origami version of Optimus Prime, then no, you have not | 04:30 |
| gene_ | no | 04:31 |
| fenn | http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/GitUsage | 04:31 |
| kanzure_ | they said they had multiple RCS's in dpkg's history | 04:31 |
| kanzure_ | hrm | 04:31 |
| gene_ | close though, a business card that contains a stirling engine that (hopefully)works | 04:31 |
| fenn | no idea how far back the git repo goes | 04:31 |
| kanzure_ | http://git.debian.org/?p=dpkg/dpkg.git;a=tree | 04:32 |
| fenn | 12 years | 04:32 |
| kanzure_ | 1996 | 04:32 |
| kanzure_ | huh | 04:32 |
| kanzure_ | not bad. | 04:32 |
| fenn | starting at 1.1.4 | 04:32 |
| kanzure_ | http://git.debian.org/?p=dpkg/dpkg.git;a=history;f=dpkg-deb/build.c;h=da8434550c79cc6df45868d448103d94281da068;hb=HEAD | 04:32 |
| kanzure_ | that's still three or four years missing, but still | 04:33 |
| kanzure_ | I certainly haven't had a project last 12 years in repositories | 04:33 |
| fenn | i'd be surprised if anyone even knew what a revision control system was back then | 04:33 |
| kanzure_ | ooga-booga! I come from future! revision control system! wheels! | 04:33 |
| * kanzure_ pokes the primitive linux programmers | 04:33 | |
| fenn | i bring water bullet! | 04:33 |
| fenn | you might be able to get some early versions if you ask nicely | 04:35 |
| fenn | supposing you can even find these people | 04:35 |
| kanzure | didn't I get an email from ian? | 04:35 |
| kanzure | some of the debian developers are still quite approachable | 04:35 |
| kanzure | ikiwiki-guy as an example | 04:35 |
| kanzure | Jim? Jay? Joseph? | 04:36 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 04:36 |
| fenn | any package maintainer will answer if you send an email (and it's actually their problem) | 04:37 |
| fenn | anyway by "these people" i meant Matt Welsh, Carl Streeter, and Ian Murdock | 04:38 |
| kanzure | ian is findable, btw | 04:38 |
| kanzure | he runs a blog these days. | 04:38 |
| gene_ | http://www.imeem.com/popmusic13/music/VrFlUe2D/kraftwerk_the_man_machine_live/ | 04:56 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, I found kraftwerk stuff in 2003 | 04:58 |
| kanzure_ | erm, 4 | 04:58 |
| kanzure_ | "I'm the operator with my pocket calculator" being their first track I heard | 04:58 |
| kanzure_ | http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/12/09/0125201.shtml re: German banks | 04:58 |
| kanzure_ | " | 04:58 |
| kanzure_ | In theory, if the banking system were known to be compromised in such a huge way, and there were no way of knowing if your own bank account was compromised or not, shouldn't there be a massive bank run? Because everyone wants to withdraw their money right away to minimize the chance that this ridiculous security leak negatively affects them, right? Such a massive erosion of confidence can completely destroy a banking system." | 04:58 |
| kanzure_ | huh | 04:59 |
| kanzure_ | interesting .. they don't necessarily have to *prove* that they have so many accounts stolen to crumble the system | 04:59 |
| kanzure_ | "Gotta love the Germans. Even their criminality is impressively efficient :-)" | 04:59 |
| fenn | to prove they werent bluffing, the crooks showed us a CD! wow! | 05:03 |
| fenn | oh. with names and routing numbers | 05:04 |
| fenn | still, that doesnt mean they can access the accounts | 05:04 |
| kanzure | german banks are different apparently | 05:04 |
| gene_ | why don't we use crypto money like in cryptomoicon | 05:04 |
| kanzure | evidently that's enough | 05:04 |
| kanzure | why don't we get rid of money | 05:04 |
| kanzure | stupid.. | 05:05 |
| fenn | havent we had this conversation before | 05:05 |
| kanzure | it's just stupid. | 05:05 |
| kanzure | not with gene. | 05:05 |
| gene_ | I'll give you a million dollars if you succeed | 05:05 |
| fenn | seems to come up on OM every other day | 05:05 |
| kanzure | fenn: and if we did, would you remind me what the result of the conversation was here? | 05:05 |
| kanzure | I know I had the convo with ybit | 05:05 |
| kanzure | but that was recent. | 05:05 |
| fenn | there never is any "result" | 05:06 |
| gene_ | kraftwerk | 05:06 |
| fenn | 1) define the problem | 05:06 |
| fenn | 2) solve the problem | 05:06 |
| gene_ | what is the problem | 05:07 |
| kanzure | why does it come up on om anyway | 05:07 |
| fenn | srsly | 05:07 |
| fenn | go spam p2pfags.org | 05:07 |
| fenn | and what's with all the people writing books about stuff that isnt happening | 05:08 |
| kanzure | huh? | 05:08 |
| kanzure | do you refer to the book thingy that I linked you to yesterday? Smari's? | 05:08 |
| fenn | perhaps it's just the amplifying power of the internet | 05:08 |
| fenn | and christian siefkes, and michel bauwen, etc etc | 05:08 |
| kanzure | I got back to him and told him it sucked, and he replied that there isn't a book yet about how tech can help fight the good fight | 05:08 |
| kanzure | siefkes? | 05:09 |
| kanzure | it was christopher kelty that did twobits.net, that book, if that's what you mean | 05:09 |
| fenn | land and capital guy | 05:09 |
| kanzure | oh | 05:09 |
| kanzure | land and capital guy is patrick anderson, I thought | 05:09 |
| fenn | er,.. well he replied in that thread i think | 05:09 |
| kanzure | so by association? or by sucky ideas /me checks | 05:09 |
| gene_ | this conversation is way over my caliber | 05:10 |
| kanzure | gene_: I thought you subscribed to openmanufacturing | 05:10 |
| kanzure | or at least you were asking about it | 05:10 |
| gene_ | oh no haven't done that yet | 05:10 |
| fenn | oh, other thread, it was "open hardware directory" and he linked to http://open-innovation-projects.org/general-discussions/flat/29 | 05:10 |
| kanzure_ | http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/8a26b785a4c2929b/0edd62354866400b?lnk=gst&q=siefkes#0edd62354866400b | 05:10 |
| kanzure_ | oh okay | 05:10 |
| kanzure_ | because in that other thread he just says "link please" re: the BFI challenge entry | 05:11 |
| * fenn fails at email | 05:11 | |
| kanzure_ | heh | 05:12 |
| kanzure_ | while we're ranting about om | 05:12 |
| kanzure_ | http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing | 05:12 |
| kanzure_ | "It is for the benefit of all. It is the assembly of material without economic materialist intent. Its distribution creates rather than diminishes value. Its methods are made public with instructions to make every part of the material enterprise as simply as possible, however complex it may be. It is the creation of a productive device with abundance in mind, no matter how scarce the environment. It liberates the body from toil and drudgery, frees the | 05:12 |
| kanzure_ | It is read/write culture in physical form. It is both individual and global. It looks upon finance with a wry smile and twinkle in its eye. It decimates the abstract in pursue of the concrete. It thrives because it places value where it belongs, in the person and object of interest, whatever they may be. It is doing as one may as a primary element in the creation of value, produced as intended with each percept, rather than its representation. It is t | 05:12 |
| kanzure_ | what's up with Nathan's description of the mailing list .. ? | 05:12 |
| fenn | what's up with nathan :) | 05:13 |
| gene_ | ??? | 05:13 |
| fenn | someone rewrite that in e-prime | 05:13 |
| kanzure_ | hrm, I seem to be disconnected - didn't get ybit's message on this box, but just got fenn's "what's up" re: nathan. | 05:13 |
| gene_ | well I don't get it | 05:13 |
| ybit | fenn, i'm guessing you aren't a fan of the p2pf? | 05:13 |
| kanzure | hrm | 05:13 |
| kanzure | I seem to be disconnected | 05:13 |
| kanzure_ | but didn't get fenn's "what's up" and everything else on the other | 05:13 |
| kanzure_ | ah, there we go, it synched | 05:13 |
| kanzure_ | how disgusting | 05:13 |
| fenn | ybit: i'm just sick of wankery self-promotion and trumpeting the coming revolution, whereas nobody is really doing anything | 05:14 |
| kanzure_ | viva la revolucion! now, to take my fiesta. | 05:14 |
| kanzure_ | siesta. | 05:14 |
| gene_ | indeed | 05:14 |
| kanzure_ | but really, I'm surprised that intro hasn't been discussed | 05:14 |
| kanzure_ | because it sucks | 05:14 |
| gene_ | we're working on the revolution for reall this time | 05:14 |
| kanzure_ | huh? | 05:15 |
| gene_ | I made a pick and place toolhead for reprap | 05:15 |
| fenn | ybit: have you been following openmanufacturing? | 05:15 |
| ybit | haven't been paying attention much this week with finals | 05:16 |
| ybit | but i always catch-up | 05:16 |
| fenn | i still havent caught up | 05:17 |
| kanzure_ | from when, fenn? | 05:17 |
| ybit | i've actually talked to patrick a few times through IM concerning money | 05:18 |
| fenn | nov 18-24 | 05:18 |
| ybit | was unsuccessful it seems and changing his mind over night | 05:18 |
| ybit | and/in | 05:19 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, he seems to be pretty hard to talk with | 05:19 |
| kanzure_ | even Eric has tried going at it with him to no avail | 05:19 |
| kanzure_ | actually Patrick didn't reply to Eric | 05:19 |
| kanzure_ | so maybe Eric knocked some sense into him | 05:19 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: huh, you haven't even gotten to the origami stuff then | 05:20 |
| kanzure_ | the latest bout of origami. | 05:20 |
| fenn | yeah i saw it | 05:20 |
| kanzure_ | cheater. | 05:20 |
| fenn | no point in reading straight through | 05:22 |
| fenn | now i'm going to be awake all night thinking about water bullet | 05:24 |
| kanzure | I think we should first package a screw | 05:27 |
| kanzure | what was the screw class going to have, fenn? | 05:27 |
| kanzure_ | hah, Carey Fisher posting to piclist | 05:29 |
| kanzure_ | making me some xwing controllers :p | 05:29 |
| fenn | references a thread class | 05:33 |
| fenn | then material, length, head type, and optional manufacturing process (rolled vs turned vs ???) | 05:34 |
| fenn | or maybe process should include the material | 05:34 |
| fenn | "One problem is that a component | 05:35 |
| fenn | > or artifact of some product might not ever go cross-referenced across | 05:35 |
| fenn | > the database" | 05:35 |
| fenn | "might" == not once, ever | 05:36 |
| kanzure | for instance in the current voiced repo there's subcomponents that are only re: the overall product | 05:36 |
| kanzure | so if there's a button in one product, and a button in another product, no relation is understood there. | 05:36 |
| fenn | anyway, back to the screw | 05:37 |
| kanzure | this was for screw metadata right | 05:38 |
| fenn | it can be used as a component, but it's also a "project" in its own right | 05:38 |
| kanzure | right | 05:38 |
| fenn | so we can explain how to make screw | 05:38 |
| kanzure | a tiny turtle :) | 05:38 |
| fenn | or we can magically assume it exists | 05:38 |
| fenn | or we can tell how to acquire a screw | 05:38 |
| kanzure | I think we can do some bullshitting instructions | 05:38 |
| kanzure | placeholder style. | 05:38 |
| fenn | why? | 05:39 |
| kanzure | "roll metal into cylinder. have fun." | 05:39 |
| kanzure | well with the hope that somebody would correct it | 05:39 |
| kanzure | since we're just trying to pop out the overall package | 05:39 |
| kanzure | is this wrong? | 05:39 |
| fenn | these things have a tendency to become pervasive | 05:39 |
| kanzure | too bad PSL doesn't have good examples.. | 05:39 |
| fenn | we need a way of knowing whether something is good data or not | 05:40 |
| fenn | frankly, i dont see any advantage to adding junk data | 05:40 |
| kanzure | speeding up development time | 05:40 |
| kanzure | hey wait, isn't this a development sin? | 05:40 |
| fenn | this = what? | 05:40 |
| kanzure | "just put in crap data/work to speed it up" | 05:40 |
| fenn | oh, well, everything is a sin in someone's book | 05:41 |
| kanzure | but really, I do think instructions are important. | 05:41 |
| kanzure | acquisition instructions would be nice, but there's no web interfaces for this either and might involve more work | 05:41 |
| fenn | ok, so, for now let's just describe how to order one from mcmaster-carr | 05:41 |
| kanzure | wget --post-data="blah" (go check the forms on mcmacster-carr) | 05:41 |
| kanzure | or just keep track of the post-data string based off of the current HTML form on their catalog pages | 05:42 |
| kanzure | blah, a whole module for surfraw basically | 05:42 |
| fenn | there really should be some abstraction layer for ordering this specific part from a variety of suppliers | 05:42 |
| kanzure | well yeah. that's what I'm talking about when I rant about B2B. | 05:42 |
| fenn | right | 05:42 |
| fenn | did that go anywhere useful? | 05:42 |
| kanzure | the ranting? no. | 05:42 |
| fenn | like if i want a 1/4-20x1" socket head cap screw, how do i do that | 05:43 |
| kanzure | random website checking at the moment. | 05:43 |
| kanzure | I was hoping for an automated system via html form submission as a hack | 05:43 |
| kanzure | but that's not long term sustainable | 05:44 |
| * fenn looks around for some rocks to bang together | 05:44 | |
| kanzure | hrm? | 05:44 |
| fenn | stone age | 05:44 |
| fenn | when it's easier to just send code to the lathe than figure out how to automatically order some screws | 05:44 |
| fenn | "oh we just have jim down in the procurement department do that stuff" | 05:45 |
| fenn | ya dont say | 05:45 |
| kanzure | :( | 05:45 |
| kanzure | the problem with html forms is, of course, they change | 05:45 |
| fenn | of course | 05:45 |
| fenn | and so will any API | 05:46 |
| kanzure | so we could have a list of different html form submission entries in surfraw style that order the same type of screw from different places, and you just pray one of the companies hasn't updated in a while | 05:46 |
| fenn | but HTML forms are a lot of work to scrape and parse etc | 05:46 |
| fenn | really i'd like the suppliers to do this work, it's their fucking job after all | 05:46 |
| kanzure | "but then everyone will see our prices!" | 05:47 |
| fenn | ok, so we have the screw, now what does it do | 05:47 |
| kanzure | I checked wikipedia a few months ago | 05:48 |
| kanzure | it had a formal definition of something about perpendicular forces | 05:48 |
| kanzure | how was it worded .. uh. | 05:48 |
| kanzure | it was under the simple machines article | 05:48 |
| fenn | inclined plane wrapped around an axis | 05:48 |
| kanzure | and was something like "mechanical force appled to .." | 05:48 |
| kanzure | oh, you're talking about the geometrical definition | 05:48 |
| fenn | that stuff isnt terribly important | 05:48 |
| kanzure | the functional definition I mean. | 05:49 |
| fenn | it could be a rivet for all i care | 05:49 |
| kanzure | oh, I thought functional was important. | 05:49 |
| fenn | how it works is important, but not at this level of abstraction | 05:49 |
| kanzure | overall though there's some input and some output right | 05:49 |
| kanzure | wait, what are we talking about, what's the current level? | 05:49 |
| fenn | well, i'm imagining someone with two things they want to hold together | 05:50 |
| fenn | so they say "fastener" | 05:50 |
| fenn | and BAM some fasteners appear | 05:50 |
| fenn | ok so it needs more info like holding force, holding rigidity, safety factor | 05:51 |
| * fenn edits the fastener class | 05:51 | |
| kanzure | well what's the relation between the number of clockwise rotations that you make and the amount of force of fasteneing applied. | 05:52 |
| kanzure | ? | 05:52 |
| fenn | that's part of the thread definition | 05:54 |
| fenn | it's actually hard to predict | 05:54 |
| fenn | in terms of ideals though, it's simple to calculate | 05:55 |
| fenn | 1 rev = 1 pitch distance (for a 1 start thread) | 05:55 |
| kanzure | hm | 05:55 |
| fenn | torque * pitch = force | 05:56 |
| * fenn checks units | 05:56 | |
| kanzure | simplify, simplify! there's one tool right there.. | 05:56 |
| kanzure | how would you incorporate this though | 05:57 |
| fenn | units '(10*ft*lbf/rev)*(20rev/in)' lbf | 05:57 |
| fenn | 2400 lbf | 05:57 |
| kanzure | I mean, where is who asking what about 'amount of holding force' ? | 05:57 |
| kanzure | is that a member method of the class? | 05:58 |
| fenn | typical screw is 10% efficient though so you really get about 240lbf clamping pressure | 05:58 |
| kanzure | and how do programs know to ask about the holding force (using that particular method)? | 05:58 |
| kanzure | maybe I'm just having a memory lapse, I'm sure we've solved that before | 05:58 |
| fenn | what programs | 05:58 |
| fenn | you're too abstract | 05:58 |
| kanzure | I mean, who's calling myscrew.holdingForce() | 05:58 |
| fenn | you started with the answer | 05:59 |
| kanzure | myscrew.init(some parameters), myscrew.holdingForce() for that type of screw | 05:59 |
| kanzure | bleh? | 05:59 |
| kanzure | okay. | 05:59 |
| fenn | take a deep breath | 05:59 |
| fenn | i need to learn how to do unit tests better | 06:01 |
| fenn | it all just feels like some OOP wankery | 06:02 |
| kanzure | because it is :'( | 06:02 |
| fenn | ah but it is genuinely useful sometimes | 06:02 |
| fenn | when things break and you have nfc what is going on | 06:02 |
| fenn | is duct tape a fastener? | 06:07 |
| kanzure | adhesive? | 06:07 |
| kanzure | cohesive? Something like that. | 06:07 |
| * fenn leaves that question for later | 06:08 | |
| kanzure | + | 06:14 |
| fenn | i know it's not impressive, but what else does it need? http://fennetic.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=skdb.git;a=blob_plain;f=skdb.py;h=f09206646ce5aaa9fa3d5f2089839c3b06051979 | 06:19 |
| kanzure | its own dir for starters | 06:20 |
| fenn | for screw? | 06:21 |
| kanzure_ | well its it's own project, no? | 06:21 |
| kanzure_ | it's its | 06:21 |
| fenn | hmm | 06:21 |
| fenn | is it? | 06:21 |
| kanzure_ | I thought so. | 06:21 |
| kanzure_ | but anyway | 06:21 |
| fenn | i like how python has a core library of frequently used modules | 06:23 |
| fenn | ok so i need to show how to instantiate this from yaml | 06:23 |
| kanzure_ | yeah this is pretty confusing because I've forgotten so much, | 06:23 |
| kanzure_ | are we still planning on having the instantiator also generating the cad models eventually too? | 06:24 |
| kanzure_ | right? | 06:24 |
| kanzure_ | so the yaml metadata is just doing general dependencies, not the specifics | 06:24 |
| kanzure_ | so somewhere else the specifics are mentioned | 06:24 |
| kanzure_ | an 'acme screw' would be a specific of this, and might come as an example file, yes? | 06:24 |
| fenn | generating cad models is a method of the class, using data from the yaml file | 06:25 |
| kanzure_ | that doesn't sound right. the class should have a method that generates the cad | 06:25 |
| fenn | 'acme screw' is not specific enough | 06:26 |
| kanzure_ | gah | 06:26 |
| kanzure_ | ignore me | 06:26 |
| kanzure_ | I'm not on amphetamine, I'm useless right now | 06:26 |
| fenn | 1/4"-20UNCx1" socket head cap screw AISI 1040 black oxide finish | 06:26 |
| fenn | on one hand i could try to make some kind of yaml schema and laboriously parse it and stuff the values into my data structures | 06:27 |
| fenn | or i could simply build the data structure and dump yaml | 06:27 |
| fenn | obviously i prefer the latter | 06:27 |
| fenn | but it looks messy | 06:27 |
| fenn | i forgot to say "now i need to create a yaml file to describe this screw" | 06:27 |
| fenn | guess i'll do that | 06:28 |
| fenn | not sure why i'm doing that | 06:28 |
| kanzure_ | just do stuff and I'll yell at you / fix tomorrow. | 06:28 |
| * kanzure_ goes away because he's useless tonight | 06:29 | |
| kanzure_ | I'm actually still here, so don't leave me in the dark | 06:32 |
| fenn | fighting with yaml | 06:34 |
| bkero | wootoff | 06:34 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=skdb.git;a=blob_plain;f=screw.yaml | 06:35 |
| fenn | i wish gitweb had prettier url's | 06:36 |
| fenn | like gitweb/skdb.git/screw.yaml/raw | 06:36 |
| fenn | oh well | 06:37 |
| fenn | bkero: is duct tape a fastener? | 06:37 |
| fenn | what about a rope? | 06:37 |
| bkero | Duct tape is totally a fastener. | 06:38 |
| kanzure | what does cyc think | 06:38 |
| fenn | oh noes | 06:38 |
| fenn | bkero: do you happen to know a way to reload a python module that you are editing? | 06:45 |
| fenn | or is this totally the wrong way | 06:45 |
| bkero | fenn: import it again | 06:46 |
| bkero | actually no | 06:46 |
| bkero | chizu: ^^^ | 06:46 |
| fenn | i usually just quit the interpreter and load it again, but this trashes my variables | 06:49 |
| chizu | fenn: Reloading the interpeter is the most complete means of doing so. | 06:51 |
| chizu | But you can also delete any references you have and remove it from sys.modules. | 06:52 |
| chizu | reload(module) can also work, but there's a number of caveats. | 06:53 |
| fenn | how do i reload the interpreter? and does this save history? (up-arrow) | 06:55 |
| chizu | I just meant what you mentioned, quitting and loading it again. | 06:56 |
| chizu | Try reload(module), it'll probably do what you want if you're just using interactive mode. | 06:56 |
| fenn | hmm not if i did from foo import * | 06:58 |
| fenn | lisp has a nice feature where you can tell if something has been modified from the default value.. i cant figure out how to do this in python without getting excessively complicated | 07:08 |
| fenn | for keyword arguments | 07:09 |
| fenn | i think i have to resort to setting default to None and then make a method getWhatever() that checks if it is none and if so returns the default | 07:09 |
| fenn | but that stinks, i just want to access foo.whatever like a normal attribute | 07:10 |
| fenn | aroo.. apparently this is called a descriptor | 07:15 |
| wrldpc | http://www.imeem.com/w0r1dpeace/music/O6zuJdMR/beta9_zencat1/ | 07:19 |
| kanzure_ | http://grctechlib.grc.nasa.gov/subjects.cfm Heh I like how lunar-planetaryscience is more popular now | 13:41 |
| kanzure_ | I count four different people from @nasa.gov in my entire mailing list email history, all contributing to open source projects. | 13:44 |
| kanzure_ | Chris Mattmann, Tom Kuiper, Jaime Scibelli, James Stevenson. | 13:44 |
| kanzure_ | also Scott T. Jolley | 13:44 |
| kanzure_ | Simon J. Hook | 13:44 |
| kanzure_ | Gunther Kletetschka too. Ok. That's it. | 13:45 |
| willPow3r | name dropping, are we? | 13:46 |
| kanzure_ | No, these have not communicated with me. | 13:49 |
| kanzure_ | just observing the distribution of NASA people doing anything remotely F/OSS related | 13:49 |
| kanzure_ | whene gene_ shows up again, he should see http://wiki.debian.org/DebianGis/PackageList | 13:54 |
| willPow3r | qgis looks interesting | 14:01 |
| willPow3r | actually all those programs look pretty neato. too bad its finals week | 14:06 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: so I'm still confused. | 15:08 |
| kanzure_ | originally, wasn't yaml going to be for metadata on a package | 15:08 |
| kanzure_ | not an instantiation of a package? | 15:08 |
| kanzure_ | in your om-dev email, yaml is used to serialize an instantiation of the screw | 15:10 |
| kanzure_ | grr. I should have been keeping [[skdb]] on the wiki updated over the past months .. | 15:10 |
| -!- procto_ is now known as procto | 15:13 | |
| kanzure_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey,_I_Shrunk_the_Kids_Characters#Wayne_Szalinski | 15:35 |
| kanzure_ | "There in High School, he met Diane Murdock" <- huh, another Murdock. | 15:36 |
| fenn | no, the idea was to instantiate code from yaml and use runtime checking to validate units and interfaces | 17:42 |
| fenn | this way i didnt have to write a half-assed xml schema | 17:42 |
| fenn | because there's no way a schema could do sanity checks | 17:43 |
| fenn | (well maybe there is, but i didnt want to go there) | 17:43 |
| kanzure | paul got on me about om-dev. talked with Sam Rose about it and he's ok with deleting om-dev. Need to talk with Smari, Nathan, you and a few others to make sure though that deleting is ok too.. | 17:46 |
| fenn | havent seen this before (list of FOSS sci/eng software) http://www.opennovation.org/ | 17:46 |
| kanzure | sigh | 17:46 |
| fenn | i dont think paul understands the problem because he's part of the problem | 17:47 |
| kanzure | this sucks.. part of the problem is that everyone who wants another list is not going to post to help me out when talking with paul | 17:47 |
| kanzure | because that's the reason they want another list (heh) | 17:47 |
| kanzure | (that they don't want to post on om) | 17:48 |
| bkero | $60 750GBs on woot | 17:48 |
| kanzure | bkero: That's what I got earlier this year. It was a Maxtor 750 GB for $64~ | 17:49 |
| kanzure | at Best Buy. Of all places.. | 17:49 |
| kanzure | fenn: posting to the discussion on om to help me out would be hot. | 17:50 |
| kanzure | hrm, /me as to upload some logs with Sam. | 17:50 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/chats/2008-12-09_Samuel_Rose.html | 17:55 |
| kanzure_ | http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_source_engineering <- dumped opennovation on there. | 18:02 |
| kanzure | Hi Sam. | 18:07 |
| samrose | reading through http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb wow that is f-ing awesome! http://ikiwiki.info/ | 18:07 |
| samrose | I have a friend who made a python wiki that stores data to mercurial revision control http://hatta.sheep.art.pl/ Hey kanzure | 18:08 |
| kanzure | Ikiwiki wasn't entirely usable the last time I checked into it. Partly the issue is that it has its own format for representing pages. I.e., it's a "wiki that just so happens to use a git RCS under the hood", rather than being a wiki layer for exposing a git repository. | 18:13 |
| samrose | kanzure, yes I don't think there is any wiki that actually works as a layer for GIT repo exposure, is there? | 18:14 |
| samrose | although, hatta might be modded to do it, but python-git is unstable | 18:15 |
| fenn | good lord writing emails takes so long | 18:16 |
| kanzure | the other half of the issue is that a wiki is more like a centralized repo model. | 18:16 |
| fenn | "i dont think there is any wiki" didnt you just look at ikiwiki? | 18:17 |
| samrose | kanzure, could maybe be desktop wikis type of model, where each of us has our own wiki, but also repos could reside on web, and possibly be edited by maintainers, or import changes from xml of personal wikis | 18:18 |
| kanzure | fenn, ikiwiki was more a wiki that just-so-happened to use git as its backend, and stored its own pages in its own format in the repository, rather than being an exposition layer for git to be in the form of a web wiki | 18:18 |
| kanzure | I guess that's a simple modification to Joey Hess' (Hey! I remembered his name!) code. | 18:18 |
| samrose | My friend just showed me how hatta wiki can write pages to repos | 18:19 |
| samrose | or open pages that are on repos | 18:19 |
| samrose | wow | 18:19 |
| samrose | but would need some work to be amde to work with GIT | 18:19 |
| samrose | when hatta doesn't find any repo, it creates a new one in the dir you specified | 18:19 |
| kanzure | There's also talk about 'semantic mediawiki', or the concept of having the tools under the hood managing the wiki be coded to be aware of the contents of the page to do more interesting things on the data .. for instance, categorizing and linking and whatnot, so that would be like dependency checking and other similar analysis tools. But I think this, as well as ikiwiki or similar, can come a bit later. | 18:21 |
| samrose | I think you were on the right track with the ikiwiki idea, vs the semedia wiki idea. But anyway, ok, you want to work on that later. | 18:22 |
| samrose | Although, RDF models could be used as a way to make flexible declarations of connections of many types between objects, but you don't need semedia wiki to do that (it is one way to do it though) | 18:23 |
| samrose | what is your priority right now with skdb, kanzure? | 18:25 |
| fenn | wow someone that agrees | 18:26 |
| kanzure | the priority right now is getting some basic demo packages made so that we all know what we're talking about. | 18:27 |
| fenn | i think kanzure has forgotten about skdb and is now working on graphsynth/function.device.mst.edu whatever that is called | 18:27 |
| * fenn cant stand calling it "the repo" | 18:27 | |
| kanzure | hah, that's somewhat true. Things do get somewhat tangled in my mind. | 18:27 |
| kanzure | the big issue is that I'm surprised that we're talking about yaml for saving instantiation information, meanwhile I was thinking that the yaml was only for the metadata of a package for instance | 18:28 |
| kanzure | (see, this is why we need the examples :-)) | 18:28 |
| fenn | i'd love for some bright young sprout to pick up the whole "expose-repository-as-a-wiki" thing and run with it | 18:28 |
| fenn | kanzure: i think there are some fuzzy boundaries about what "the data" is exactly | 18:29 |
| fenn | before we can talk about metadata | 18:29 |
| fenn | i mean, url author date license, this stuff is dead simple | 18:30 |
| fenn | hey that's a "minimum requirement list" isnt it :) | 18:30 |
| * samrose calls it "repo" because if I add up all of the "sitory"-ies that I might type in my life, I may end up missing something with allof that lost time :) | 18:30 | |
| samrose | hahah! :) | 18:31 |
| fenn | samrose: this is a specific "repo" with its own axe to grind, not a revision control system | 18:31 |
| kanzure | it was something like: urls (repo/git url too would be nice), authors, changelog pointer (to the file with the changelog (ok, maybe this should just be CHANGELOG by standard), license file, and also a dependency list in the yaml | 18:31 |
| kanzure | this would be in a file like meta.yaml in the .TAR or .skdb (a .tar) file | 18:31 |
| kanzure | right? | 18:31 |
| fenn | changelog can just be a list | 18:32 |
| kanzure | input/output information in terms of units was also going to be in the metadata | 18:32 |
| kanzure | and then some way to point to further .py code in the .tar | 18:32 |
| kanzure | yes? | 18:32 |
| samrose | I think the YAML is a good flexible place to park metadata | 18:32 |
| kanzure | yeah :) | 18:32 |
| fenn | i'm still concerned about dealing with different layers of abstraction in dependencies | 18:33 |
| samrose | is changelog generated programmatically, or manually (at this time)? | 18:33 |
| fenn | manually, and forever more | 18:33 |
| fenn | programmatically -> look at the repository | 18:33 |
| samrose | so, coming from the repository | 18:33 |
| samrose | with notes on the package added manually | 18:34 |
| kanzure | fenn, well I was thinking that the abstraction layers issue would be solvable by an inbetween layer where you map what you want to what the other guys are calling their stuf. | 18:34 |
| fenn | i mean it has to be hand written or it will suck | 18:34 |
| samrose | fenn: I see | 18:34 |
| fenn | samrose: ever read doxygen generated "documentation"? | 18:34 |
| kanzure | doxygen is never sufficient, though it's a nice plus. | 18:35 |
| fenn | you often find yourself saying "but what does it _DO_" | 18:35 |
| samrose | what kanzure talks about could be where an RDF comes in I work with computer generated documentation daily. I am used to it, but understand | 18:35 |
| fenn | kanzure: ok, i'd call that a compatibility API.. not so familiar with RDF and how it all works in practice | 18:36 |
| * fenn finishes email to list | 18:36 | |
| samrose | Do you have objections to working with files where people might be using a mercurial repository in place of GIT? Could mercurial be an option? | 18:38 |
| samrose | (provided the fact that you can migrate repositories back and forth, of course) | 18:39 |
| fenn | i havent used mercurial, but i dont see why not | 18:40 |
| fenn | the thing that got me interested in git was that it tracked content, regardless of what file it was located in | 18:41 |
| fenn | so if you move a block of text from one file to another, the new block of text has the old changes associated with it | 18:42 |
| fenn | and distributed development as a central theme | 18:42 |
| kanzure | this is **wrong**: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/acmescrew.tar.skdb | 18:42 |
| kanzure | but an example. still wrong.. but. | 18:42 |
| fenn | it's going very slow.. 500bytes/sec | 18:44 |
| kanzure | uh I don't know why. | 18:45 |
| kanzure | what should I check? | 18:45 |
| kanzure | I'm getting normal google ping | 18:46 |
| fenn | try netstat --inet | 18:46 |
| kanzure | why am I connected to an efnet fileserver. | 18:48 |
| fenn | HACKED | 18:48 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/21784/ <- Andrew Hessel's link to a diy lab on a chip with paper and tape | 18:49 |
| kanzure_ | efnet. afs3 fileserver | 18:49 |
| kanzure | oh wait. | 18:53 |
| kanzure | Todd might be backing up my nature dump. | 18:54 |
| kanzure | via http ? wtf. | 18:54 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/whitesides/ for the papers. The one that says 'paper and tape' is the one in particular. | 18:57 |
| fenn | huh. "Google Groups does not let you reuse a | 18:59 |
| fenn | list name once it has been deleted." | 18:59 |
| * fenn adds to his trivia file | 18:59 | |
| fenn | jeez that .sldprt file is 500KB? | 19:01 |
| fenn | in acmescrew.tar.skdb | 19:01 |
| kanzure_ | hrm, my other box has netsplitted. | 19:02 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, sldprt is large. | 19:02 |
| kanzure_ | I should have thrown in some gxml silliness into that tar file, but I think that's enough to work with for now. | 19:06 |
| kanzure_ | I'd prefer an stl-generator for screws though | 19:06 |
| fenn | heh | 19:06 |
| kanzure_ | rather than just one model.. | 19:06 |
| fenn | what is the gxml graph of a screw? | 19:06 |
| fenn | a node with some arrows pointing nowhere? | 19:06 |
| kanzure_ | it would only have a functional gxml file, where the node names represent the functions that it solves | 19:07 |
| kanzure_ | so the correct way to word this might be | 19:07 |
| kanzure_ | "according to this black box diagram, this solves the problem of the conversion of torque into a mechanical fastening" | 19:08 |
| fenn | a list of functions of a screw | 19:08 |
| fenn | *cough* list *cough* | 19:08 |
| kanzure_ | no, don't worry about it | 19:08 |
| fenn | i mean you dont have to make a graph and complicate everything | 19:09 |
| kanzure_ | it's only a graph when you start to get dependency information | 19:09 |
| kanzure_ | *that's* a graph. "This is a screw->metal plate->other metal plate" although it's a simple graph. | 19:09 |
| fenn | ok | 19:09 |
| kanzure | hm, there's a #openmanufacturing | 19:14 |
| Smari | oh dear | 19:15 |
| kanzure | Hello Smari :-) | 19:15 |
| Smari | Did I ever share with you my deep loathing of anything related to transhumanism? | 19:16 |
| kanzure | No. What's wrong with brain implants, rTMS, computational neuroscience and other hacking? | 19:17 |
| Smari | Nothing at all. I like all of that. | 19:18 |
| Smari | It's the transhumanist assumptions that peeve me, not where they're going or how they want to get there. | 19:19 |
| kanzure | Assumptions? | 19:19 |
| kanzure | Which ones are those? | 19:19 |
| Smari | The assumption that transcending limitations of the human form will inevitably be better for humanity, for one. | 19:19 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm <- What's wrong with these 7 principles? | 19:19 |
| kanzure | Woah, wait a sec. That's not a transhuman assumption. | 19:19 |
| kanzure | Who defines "better" for humanity anyway? What is that crap?? | 19:19 |
| Smari | Hehehe | 19:19 |
| Smari | Admittedly, my references in this field are somewhat limited. | 19:20 |
| kanzure | Yeah, well, I blame the WTA and a lot of other crappy people. If you want essays to read (meh), written by Paul actually, check out http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ for a critique on Kurzweil's sillyness. | 19:20 |
| kanzure | But anyway, personal technologies shouldn't be thrown out so readily. | 19:21 |
| Smari | WTA? | 19:21 |
| kanzure | World Transhumanist Association. A bunch of jerks :-( sitting around talking about ethics :-(. | 19:21 |
| Smari | Ah | 19:21 |
| Smari | That might be the problem. | 19:21 |
| kanzure | It is. | 19:21 |
| kanzure | heh' | 19:21 |
| Smari | Extropian stuff I've read by Charlie Stross is very nice. | 19:21 |
| kanzure | Charlie and I have emailed a few times before, didn't go anywhere though. | 19:22 |
| kanzure | Anyway, I don't know why I still run around with the words transhuman, given the ridiculously bad rep the WTA has given it and such, but the tech stuff is still stuff I like to work on from time to time.. | 19:23 |
| kanzure | I'd be open to changing the channel name if it weren't for the fact that we all just keep on showing up here in this channel :-) | 19:23 |
| Smari | Yeah | 19:24 |
| Smari | No worries. | 19:24 |
| Smari | Anyway.. | 19:24 |
| kanzure | Actually there is a channel redirect mechanism. Just something I forgot about. | 19:25 |
| kanzure | Yeah, so openmanufacturing. Did you push your comments? | 19:25 |
| Smari | Just a few. | 19:25 |
| Smari | I had to try hard to sound annoyed. | 19:25 |
| Smari | I'm just not very annoyed today. | 19:25 |
| Smari | I watched policemen being beaten up when I woke up. Very relaxing. | 19:25 |
| kanzure | Is your island going up in flames? | 19:26 |
| Smari | Are you telling me that we have more than one celeb on the om list? | 19:26 |
| Smari | Yes it is. :) | 19:26 |
| kanzure | What, celeb? | 19:26 |
| Smari | Paul. | 19:26 |
| kanzure | Which celebrity are you talking about? | 19:26 |
| kanzure | Hm. | 19:26 |
| kanzure | I don't understand. There's Eric, he's awesome, you, me, ben, actually everyone. | 19:27 |
| fenn | hello smari, i'm ben | 19:27 |
| fenn | am i a celebrity? | 19:27 |
| Smari | What with yay ben. | 19:27 |
| Smari | sorry. | 19:27 |
| Smari | noo | 19:27 |
| Smari | I mean on the openmanufacturing list | 19:28 |
| Smari | There's a lot of fairly well known people there. "People with wikipedia profiles" :) | 19:28 |
| fenn | ooo | 19:28 |
| fenn | i must admit i'm quite sick of authors | 19:29 |
| kanzure | Don't you get a profile if you register on wikipedia? | 19:29 |
| fenn | kanzure: articles about them (whoever they is) | 19:30 |
| fenn | hmmm | 19:30 |
| fenn | Smari: how did you get a fablab airlifted into some island in the middle of the ocean? | 19:31 |
| Smari | fenn, when I was 16 I realized that I could convince people to do anything I wanted them to. Since then I've been trying to prove myself wrong. | 19:32 |
| kanzure | How's it working out for you? | 19:32 |
| Smari | I got a fablab airlifted to some island in the middle of the ocean... | 19:33 |
| Smari | *shrug* | 19:33 |
| fenn | so are you going to secede from the UN and WSLE your way out of earthly politics? | 19:33 |
| fenn | so anyway before you showed up we were talking about whitesides-paper-tape-chip, RDF, and skdb examples | 19:36 |
| fenn | in this case "example" means "the only working code we have" | 19:37 |
| kanzure_ | don't forget the horrible nonfunctional tar file I just made | 19:37 |
| kanzure_ | I feel like a little part of me died when I made it. | 19:38 |
| fenn | yeah, not sure what the point of that was | 19:38 |
| kanzure_ | well to have a basic example of a tar file with the yaml and python in it | 19:38 |
| kanzure_ | plus a model file. | 19:38 |
| fenn | oh | 19:38 |
| fenn | why a tar file? | 19:38 |
| kanzure_ | download all at once | 19:39 |
| kanzure_ | right? | 19:39 |
| kanzure_ | that's how you work with a .deb | 19:39 |
| fenn | isnt it the same as having a directory? | 19:39 |
| kanzure_ | yes, but you don't have to click multiple times | 19:39 |
| fenn | i mean, dont get attached to the concept of skdb project = tar with yaml and python | 19:39 |
| kanzure_ | would you rather have it compressed? | 19:39 |
| kanzure_ | or do you just want everyone to git clone | 19:39 |
| fenn | maybe we should come up with an API for skdb projects | 19:39 |
| kanzure_ | which I'm ok with | 19:39 |
| nsh | what y'all trying to do? | 19:40 |
| fenn | i think whatever you download should include the revision history | 19:40 |
| fenn | so then when you want to contribute changes it's not a burden | 19:40 |
| kanzure_ | okay then, always git cloning is fine | 19:41 |
| fenn | ok | 19:41 |
| fenn | and for non-technical people there is the wiki layer | 19:41 |
| fenn | nsh: try and take over the world! | 19:41 |
| * kanzure_ has pinky and the brain episodes for anyone who wants them | 19:41 | |
| kanzure_ | really the tar file was so that you have some things to work with, namely the sldprt file I guess | 19:42 |
| kanzure_ | oh we could do arduino instead | 19:44 |
| kanzure_ | http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDuemilanove | 19:44 |
| kanzure_ | http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/arduino-duemilanove-reference-design.zip "eagle files" | 19:44 |
| fenn | ah, well .sldprt doesnt help me at all | 19:44 |
| fenn | electronics is pretty well systematized already | 19:45 |
| kanzure_ | so then what's the problem with using it as an example? | 19:45 |
| fenn | on the other hand, arduino has a lot of capabilities | 19:45 |
| * nsh wants pinky and the brain episodes | 19:46 | |
| fenn | dunno if you've ever read an atmega datasheet | 19:46 |
| fenn | they're like 200 pages long | 19:46 |
| kanzure_ | I've read datasheets, not atmega sheets though | 19:46 |
| kanzure_ | actually I've read atmel application notes | 19:46 |
| kanzure_ | does this count? | 19:46 |
| Smari | The guy who invented the Arduino.. I crashed at his place in October.. | 19:46 |
| fenn | no | 19:46 |
| kanzure_ | nsh: http://heybryan.org/books/pinky_and_the_brain/ | 19:47 |
| fenn | arduino should definitely be one of the early additions though | 19:48 |
| fenn | get rid of om-dev and just do some wikification? | 19:50 |
| Smari | hahahaha | 19:50 |
| fenn | does this mean put the recent skdb content on skdb's wiki page | 19:50 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: well we should put the skdb content on the wiki anyway | 19:51 |
| Smari | I can't post to om-dev from @anarchism.is | 19:51 |
| nsh | ty | 19:51 |
| kanzure_ | Smari: I turned off posting for the time being | 19:51 |
| kanzure_ | to put pressure on commenting on the om emails | 19:51 |
| kanzure_ | to sort it all out. | 19:51 |
| kanzure_ | before Paul kills me or something :) | 19:51 |
| fenn | i dont think that ever works | 19:51 |
| fenn | see the invention of the smiley, for example | 19:51 |
| fenn | (all jokes must be tagged with :) sign) | 19:51 |
| Smari | hahaha | 19:51 |
| Smari | haha | 19:52 |
| samrose | fenn (sorry for fading out) I think mercurial does exactly what you are talking about GIT doing with text. Both were made as proposals for linux kernal devleopment, but git won out due (probably because it is made wholly in C I think) | 19:52 |
| fenn | i hope some day someone writes a revision control abstraction layer | 19:53 |
| samrose | I just tested hatta wiki, and it totally will work as a wiki layer of mercurial repo | 19:53 |
| samrose | if you try to open a binary, hatta will even ask you to upload a new file, and it writes all changes to repo, you just run ./hatta.py -d /path/to/your/text/files | 19:53 |
| samrose | and hatta will work with existing repo, you can then visit http://localhost:8080/name_of_your_file.txt and edit, and if you run hg log, you wil see changes | 19:54 |
| samrose | f-ing brilliant! | 19:54 |
| samrose | no way of deleting files, though, that I can see | 19:56 |
| fenn | oh yay, the "mu" license | 19:59 |
| fenn | all that zen stuff is just an excuse to be a bastard | 20:00 |
| kanzure_ | fenn, what's the git clone for your skdb.git anyway? | 20:02 |
| kanzure_ | I thought it was git-clone http://fennetic.net/git/skdb.git/ | 20:02 |
| kanzure_ | but this fails | 20:02 |
| fenn | well.. i have to do some incantation to fix that | 20:04 |
| fenn | try git:// | 20:04 |
| kanzure_ | warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout. | 20:04 |
| fenn | ok try again either way | 20:05 |
| kanzure_ | http worked, git:// didn't. | 20:05 |
| fenn | i'm getting this error on the console: [11873] '/home/fenn/git//git/skdb.git': unable to chdir or not a git archive | 20:06 |
| fenn | hm probably misconfigured git daemon | 20:06 |
| * samrose was able to get success with sudo git clone http://fennetic.net/git/skdb.git/ | 20:07 | |
| kanzure_ | yep, same here now. | 20:07 |
| fenn | sudo? | 20:07 |
| kanzure_ | sounds unnecessary | 20:07 |
| Smari | People use sudo too freely. | 20:08 |
| Smari | "ah, command won't work. Sudo to the rescue!" | 20:08 |
| kanzure_ | fenn, how would Thread.clamping_force() ever be called | 20:08 |
| samrose | haha | 20:08 |
| fenn | kanzure_: i have no ide | 20:08 |
| samrose | I am using ubuntu, it won't write the bloody files without sudo people! :) | 20:08 |
| samrose | well, ubuntu could, but I'd rather run it this way | 20:09 |
| fenn | kanzure_: but it seems important doesnt it? | 20:09 |
| kanzure_ | fenn, this is why we've been talking for the past few months | 20:09 |
| kanzure_ | yes, it's important to resolve this | 20:09 |
| kanzure_ | one thought that you should probably toss out, but needs to be expressed anyway, | 20:10 |
| * fenn braces | 20:10 | |
| kanzure_ | was that python would somehow expose the member methods to questioning apps | 20:10 |
| kanzure_ | and then these member methods would be used, somehow, either in this own package, or in other packages depending on this screw package | 20:10 |
| kanzure_ | common methods like "tell me how to make this" are good member methods to have. but specialized member methods get used, how? By other packages that depend on screw.somespecializedfunc()? | 20:11 |
| kanzure_ | oh | 20:11 |
| kanzure_ | I guess it can be just for unit tests and other things like that | 20:11 |
| fenn | yes, simulations | 20:12 |
| kanzure_ | verification of constraints, unit testing, final serializing into a project dump (whatever that means), etc. | 20:12 |
| samrose | what is the design patter (if any) that is employed with skdb? | 20:12 |
| samrose | pattern | 20:12 |
| kanzure_ | so does that mean that we need to always have something like test.py ? or simulator.py? and that these would employ the classes defined, in some standardized way? | 20:12 |
| fenn | could you give me some examples of "design patterns" so i know what you want? | 20:12 |
| kanzure_ | client-server | 20:13 |
| kanzure_ | is an example | 20:13 |
| fenn | oh, well skdb is both distributed and client-server | 20:13 |
| fenn | s/distributed/desktop/ | 20:13 |
| fenn | er.. no that's not quite right | 20:13 |
| kanzure_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architectural_pattern_(computer_science) | 20:13 |
| fenn | you can access it from the web but you can also run it directly on your hard drive | 20:13 |
| samrose | when you are employing classes with python, you can use different OOP design patterns, depending on the problems you are trying to solve with the program you are writing | 20:13 |
| samrose | if you want to, not that you have to | 20:14 |
| kanzure_ | layers, presentation-abstraction-control, three-tier, pipeline, implicit invocation, blackboard system, peer-to-peer, service-oriented architecture, naked objects, model-view-controller, dependency-injection | 20:14 |
| samrose | I ask because I am getting a sense of some patterns emerging in what you all are talking about, and wondered if you had explicitly employed an object oriented pattern, but I se that maybe you have not | 20:14 |
| samrose | kanzure_ so all of those patterns are employed in your system? | 20:15 |
| kanzure_ | No, that was a list for fenn. | 20:15 |
| fenn | samrose: basically i want one code object for each mathematical model of a real artifact (or potentially real artifact) | 20:15 |
| samrose | aha | 20:15 |
| samrose | :) | 20:15 |
| samrose | why? | 20:16 |
| samrose | fenn | 20:16 |
| fenn | because then i can poke at them and see what happens | 20:16 |
| samrose | ah, huh that makes sense | 20:16 |
| kanzure_ | wah. you're taking away my attempts at getting fenn to find a way to use the specialized member classes, possibly leading to him adding a simulation.py file. | 20:16 |
| kanzure_ | or something. | 20:16 |
| * kanzure_ goes off to eat :) | 20:17 | |
| fenn | hmph. | 20:17 |
| samrose | no, you should still do that fenn | 20:17 |
| kanzure_ | hrmph? | 20:17 |
| samrose | :) | 20:17 |
| samrose | But I can see why fenn wants to have this kind of "playground" | 20:17 |
| fenn | each project should have its own test.py but this isnt necessarily part of the live code object | 20:18 |
| kanzure_ | screw.tar.skdb would qualify for a test.py of its own, yes? | 20:18 |
| fenn | samrose: originally this grew out of my need to figure out what order to build tools in | 20:18 |
| fenn | so like a drill press can make holes, and a lathe can make round things... can i make a milling machine with this? | 20:19 |
| fenn | the answer is that i should have built a shaper first | 20:19 |
| fenn | oh well | 20:19 |
| fenn | kanzure_: yes, but like i said i'm not good with unit tests yet | 20:19 |
| kanzure_ | right now this is more like a bill of materials list. | 20:20 |
| kanzure_ | I feel like we've regressed | 20:20 |
| samrose | You could be employing one software design, but then turn on a testing function that will output the objects for everything | 20:20 |
| kanzure_ | we had better ideas months ago | 20:20 |
| fenn | yeah | 20:20 |
| samrose | in python, everything is an object btw | 20:20 |
| * fenn should look at some logs | 20:21 | |
| kanzure_ | our logs are terribly convoluted when we discussed this stuff | 20:21 |
| kanzure_ | but I should do the same too, transfer some stuff to the wiki | 20:21 |
| fenn | samrose: yes and no.. a dict is more like a data structure | 20:21 |
| kanzure_ | if you want to zip up all the logs you have, I'll do the same, but most of the good stuff is from before I started keeping irssi logs | 20:21 |
| kanzure_ | (laptop failure) | 20:21 |
| fenn | heh i doubt anyone will be willing to read through all that | 20:22 |
| kanzure_ | meh, I can pull a ybit | 20:22 |
| samrose | fenn, maybe like a data structure, but the basic unit in *all* of python, beyond shadow of doubt, is object | 20:22 |
| kanzure_ | which is a ybit pulling a bryan | 20:22 |
| kanzure_ | uh oh, recursion error :) | 20:22 |
| jm | http://heybryan.org/books/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/ | 20:23 |
| samrose | anyway, you could make the objects you are looking for as part of testing system (or even part of design/building functionality) | 20:23 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, the symlink is messed up, jm | 20:23 |
| -!- nsh- is now known as nsh | 20:23 | |
| kanzure_ | samrose: that's sort of what we were planning on doin | 20:24 |
| kanzure_ | doing | 20:24 |
| kanzure_ | see, the metadata was going to have units | 20:24 |
| kanzure_ | to tell you kind of a dimensional analysis of the component | 20:24 |
| kanzure_ | such that an inlet would allow some sort of fluid, and so you know that you have all of those options available | 20:24 |
| samrose | have you looked at pyunit? | 20:24 |
| kanzure_ | yes | 20:24 |
| samrose | ah, figured maybe you did | 20:24 |
| kanzure_ | gnu units as well | 20:24 |
| samrose | sorry to interrupt | 20:24 |
| samrose | continue | 20:24 |
| kanzure_ | not an issue .. | 20:25 |
| fenn | units is an overloaded term | 20:25 |
| fenn | pyunit is for testing software | 20:25 |
| kanzure_ | the big issue is now that we have a rather skeletal structure we're scratching our heads trying to remember what we were thinking of doing next | 20:25 |
| kanzure_ | oh, woops | 20:25 |
| kanzure_ | sorry about that | 20:25 |
| fenn | gnu units is for dimensional symbols | 20:25 |
| kanzure_ | what was the python package that did units that I found? | 20:25 |
| kanzure_ | pnum? | 20:25 |
| fenn | unum | 20:25 |
| kanzure_ | blah | 20:25 |
| fenn | (it's awful btw) | 20:25 |
| fenn | it looks good on paper | 20:26 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, your comments expressed as much | 20:26 |
| kanzure_ | samrose: once we figure out what we were thinking of doing next, heh' then we'll get the wiki updated a bit more | 20:26 |
| samrose | pynum yeah that is right, fenn is right pyunit for unit testing | 20:26 |
| kanzure_ | thsi is rather embarrasing. I'm sure we previously figured out "what do we do to link packages together" | 20:26 |
| samrose | so you were going with GNU Unti | 20:26 |
| kanzure_ | besides dependencies | 20:26 |
| samrose | Unit | 20:26 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, wrappers for gnu-unit, etc. | 20:27 |
| kanzure_ | I don't think we were going to do physical connections, that sounds too wrong to me .. gah. | 20:27 |
| kanzure_ | okay, I'll eat and read some logs if fenn wants to upload them. | 20:27 |
| fenn | interfaces | 20:27 |
| kanzure_ | *I'll go eat | 20:27 |
| kanzure_ | something about interfaces, yes | 20:27 |
| fenn | one order of fried logs comin up | 20:28 |
| kanzure_ | but were these automatically used interfaces or not? | 20:28 |
| fenn | they're just there | 20:28 |
| fenn | you hasattr() and see if it exists | 20:28 |
| fenn | if not, give up | 20:28 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/hplusroadmap.log-12-09-08.tgz | 20:30 |
| samrose | I think I am going to keep a lot of my "stuff" out of your current work, and see if maybe I can help you with your current focus and goals instead | 20:30 |
| fenn | what is your "stuff"? | 20:30 |
| samrose | stuff that would derail your progress :) | 20:31 |
| fenn | ok nevermind then | 20:31 |
| jm | kanzure: don't repair, it's so meaningful regarding feynman and nanotech. This link is ART ;-) | 20:31 |
| samrose | the basic work that you are doing now is more important than what I intend to do. I would rather help you all make progress with what you are workign on | 20:31 |
| samrose | I can work on what I am working on seperately, and make it conform to what you are working on | 20:32 |
| fenn | samrose: i will forward my original email to marcin about all this to you | 20:32 |
| samrose | fenn: which person are you? "WHOIS" doesn't tell me | 20:33 |
| fenn | ben lipkowitz | 20:33 |
| samrose | ah, gotcha | 20:34 |
| fenn | i wasnt very involved in openfarmtech | 20:34 |
| fenn | too many projects | 20:34 |
| samrose | My nephew is there living with them right now, and I am going to go out there starting this spring | 20:34 |
| samrose | so far as I can see, I will try to use the skdb to do the work I was intending to do out there. I used to work as an engine machinist back in the 1990's and heavy machinery technician. Going to start mapping some of Marcin's projects | 20:36 |
| Smari | can somebody explain skdb? | 20:37 |
| fenn | sometimes i feel like i'm getting dumber as time goes on | 20:38 |
| Smari | I can't be bothered to read the backlog | 20:38 |
| fenn | sort of like merlin, the man who lived backwards | 20:38 |
| fenn | Smari: its like apt-get, for "stuff" | 20:39 |
| fenn | where stuff is jumbo jets and skyscrapers and robots | 20:39 |
| fenn | so you agx-get jumbo-jet and it pulls in all the machinery needed to make it, or figures out how to order the pieces if your personality prefers that | 20:40 |
| Smari | Yay | 20:40 |
| fenn | but in order for this to happen there must be a huge interlinked database and code describing what processes make things possible | 20:41 |
| fenn | so, skdb is the database | 20:42 |
| fenn | we've settled on a distributed architecture though, which is very un-debian-like | 20:42 |
| fenn | so i'm also planning to make a "distribution" called Autogenix which will pull in the best of the projects, apply compatibility fixes, and release a complete working system | 20:43 |
| kanzure_ | ideally this would be a replacement for 'fabuntu' as well .. an ubuntu for fablabs. | 20:46 |
| fenn | well, fabuntu seems poorly defined | 20:46 |
| kanzure_ | another possible descriptor is a(n actual) open source hardware package manager. | 20:46 |
| kanzure_ | yes, true. | 20:46 |
| fenn | fabuntu makes me think of an operating system | 20:46 |
| fenn | tailored for fablabs | 20:46 |
| kanzure_ | it is one. remember, we were also originally considering ISAs for physical actuators and so on | 20:46 |
| kanzure_ | meaning stuff on /dev | 20:47 |
| fenn | yeah the "compiler" | 20:47 |
| kanzure_ | " | 20:49 |
| kanzure_ | " | 20:49 |
| kanzure_ | Little minds have bigger minds, upon their backs to ride 'em. | 20:49 |
| kanzure_ | And bigger minds have bigger minds, and so ad infinitum." | 20:49 |
| kanzure_ | Okay, log reading mode. | 20:50 |
| fenn | off to go survey my new hovel, please post any inspired tidbits | 20:57 |
| -!- nsh___ is now known as nsh | 21:05 | |
| Smari | Hahahahah, flatline!! http://www2.glitnir.is/Markadir/Hlutabref/Samantekt.aspx?Audkenni=EXISTA | 21:15 |
| kanzure_ | http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/autogenix-format-v0.0.2.txt <- old. | 21:28 |
| kanzure_ | ah that's right, we were considering 'streams' for material flows and other dimensions and units | 21:29 |
| kanzure_ | but this doesn't answer our latest 'what was the interface between packages going to be' when there are specialized submethods | 21:30 |
| kanzure_ | 7612 is interesting | 21:41 |
| kanzure_ | where'd I get that idea? | 21:41 |
| kanzure_ | I was talking about having specific unit testing suites. One for automobiles, another for classes of screws; these would be specific to the special member functions of everything that the unit tests cover. | 21:47 |
| kanzure_ | And project maintainers have to hardcode the calls to the specialized member functions of the objects that they are employing in their project, as a sort of build/make file for the template of the system. | 21:47 |
| kanzure_ | fenn: isn't that it? What more is missing ? | 21:48 |
| kanzure_ | 11016: "think of skdb as an aggregation layer and then autogenix as a way to query the aggregation layer to get stuff done" | 22:18 |
| kanzure_ | 10% of the file was written in three weeks? | 22:25 |
| kanzure_ | 11778: yaml intro | 22:27 |
| kanzure_ | Hrm. What about this? When there's a function that is described by the metadata, in terms of units and dimensions and so on, like a flow of some energy into some other energy form, we consider it "solved" if there are instructions for that package on how to make it. If these instructions are incomplete, then go fetch the packages that this package depends on, and serialize *those* instructions on how to make it (for either a human or machine). | 22:29 |
| kanzure_ | "How it works" is just something to be left up to something that aggregates similar screws together and does different calculations across them. That's the matheamtical specialized subfunctions, optimization stuff, etc., not to be included in either a 'final project' with certain config, and it's not for instruction serialization (most definitely not - nobody would have confused this to begin with anyway). | 22:31 |
| kanzure_ | 11848: autospec | 22:32 |
| kanzure_ | 13310: yaml stuff.. | 22:45 |
| kanzure_ | 13339: don't know what's going on here. 'Automatically selecting packages to solve autospec problems'. Overall sounds like a makefile generator, but it wants to also connect different packages together at the same time. | 22:49 |
| kanzure_ | This is stupid. Most of the conversation is about rather simple "fetch when a dependency is not found". | 23:01 |
| kanzure_ | 13832: wtf, I went back to the idea of a global simulator? Huh. | 23:09 |
| kanzure_ | http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/autogenix-software.png | 23:10 |
| kanzure_ | samrose: that's worth viewing. | 23:11 |
| * samrose clicks | 23:11 | |
| kanzure_ | http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/autogenix-software2.png is of course the other version | 23:14 |
| kanzure_ | There's still some fuzziness in how things 'connect together' and how special member functions get used, but this is a roll for the package maintainer. (Also for fenn's further review when he gets back. I've been reading through the old logs.) | 23:16 |
| kanzure_ | 14111: "20:19 < kanzure> remember, automated design is not our goal" <-- hahahah | 23:18 |
| kanzure_ | Hm. I should probably stop reading. I think I got the answer that I was looking for. But now I'm wondering about things like representing joints/fasteners in a 3D sense in the files. In Solidworks you mark up areas of your object as being applicable for allowing a screw to be inserted (it doesn't capitalize on this ability much). Perhaps something like that here, and then I think I can stop axsting. | 23:26 |
| kanzure_ | *anxsting | 23:26 |
| kanzure_ | 16928 has some ok stuff re: physical structures. | 23:54 |
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