| --- Day changed Sun Jan 04 2009 | ||
| gene_ | Kanzure it's your birthday? | 00:06 |
|---|---|---|
| ybit | i think it's today or tom., i forget what skype told me | 00:16 |
| ybit | the 'ol one-niner | 00:16 |
| emlyno | I met my wife when I was 19. Serious grown up shitola! | 00:21 |
| emlyno | No I'm not a reprapper, but I'd like to be | 00:22 |
| emlyno | kanzure: cosmic engineers, not on that list, that explains it :-) | 00:23 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 00:26 | |
| emlyno | gene: No I'm not a reprapper, but I'd like to be | 00:28 |
| gene | I'm not a reprapper, but I have a lego contraption capable of make shapes out of frosting | 00:28 |
| emlyno | really? sweet! | 00:30 |
| gene | yeah | 00:30 |
| emlyno | got photos? | 00:30 |
| gene | PHOTOS? I don't have photos, I have an instructable | 00:30 |
| gene | http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-Polar-3-D-Printer-from-Legos/ | 00:31 |
| gene | it's a bit different now | 00:31 |
| gene | upgraded the Z-axis and converted to cartesian | 00:31 |
| gene | inverse kinematics is a bit to hard for a lego smart brick | 00:32 |
| emlyno | I was just given a set of mindstorms as a present | 00:33 |
| emlyno | I would set it up like this: | 00:33 |
| gene | NXT? | 00:33 |
| emlyno | put a program in the brick that can receive commands and report results over bluetooth, | 00:34 |
| emlyno | then do all the real code on a pc | 00:34 |
| emlyno | yep NXT | 00:34 |
| gene | I'm not that great of a programmer, I'll admit that | 00:34 |
| emlyno | Would that be useful if it existed? | 00:35 |
| gene | the problem with polar is to make a line you have to constantly change the radial and tangential velocity a lot | 00:35 |
| emlyno | I'm not very good at making things, but I am a pretty good programmer | 00:35 |
| gene | well then you might be able to help me then | 00:36 |
| emlyno | yes polar coords and straight lines are a bit of a bad combo :-) | 00:36 |
| gene | yeah | 00:36 |
| emlyno | but I can see why you used them | 00:36 |
| gene | yeah, mindstorms kits don't come with very many racks | 00:37 |
| emlyno | I wonder if it already exists? ie: code to turn the smart brick into a command interpreter? | 00:37 |
| emlyno | tbh, I haven't really played with it much yet. I hadn't thought of the right project. But a 3d fabber would be way cool | 00:38 |
| gene | look up NXC | 00:38 |
| gene | it is a much better way to program the NXT | 00:39 |
| gene | than the dinky visual interface that comes with it, I mean come on, why didn't they include a frakkin' cosine function | 00:40 |
| gene | computers in the 1940s had cosine functions, but the NXT doesn't | 00:40 |
| emlyno | Yeah I'm on ubuntu, so NXC is the thing | 00:41 |
| emlyno | There are some excellent looking java libraries and stuff that sit on top of NXC I think | 00:42 |
| emlyno | I'm thinking of this I think: http://lejos.sourceforge.net/nxj.php | 00:43 |
| -!- gene_ [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 00:45 | |
| -!- emlyno [n=emlyn@ppp121-45-44-196.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008121622]"] | 00:55 | |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 01:19 | |
| -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@121-73-144-159.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] | 01:34 | |
| -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p4FDC2ACB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #hplusroadmap | 03:51 | |
| -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@c-24-16-134-189.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 04:38 | |
| -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@c-24-16-134-189.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] | 05:06 | |
| -!- willPow3r_ is now known as willPow3r | 05:26 | |
| -!- emlyno [n=emlyn@ppp121-45-44-196.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 06:54 | |
| -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p4FDC2ACB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121]"] | 07:09 | |
| -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 07:24 | |
| -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 07:24 | |
| -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9D4A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 09:12 | |
| -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p4FDC1388.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #hplusroadmap | 10:35 | |
| -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbh-ac05-59-113.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 11:07 | |
| -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 11:09 | |
| -!- emlyno [n=emlyn@ppp121-45-44-196.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008121622]"] | 11:31 | |
| -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbh-ac05-59-32.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 11:34 | |
| -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbh-ac05-59-113.dial.mts.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] | 11:35 | |
| -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbh-ac05-59-32.dial.mts.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 11:35 | |
| -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbh-ac05-59-32.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 11:35 | |
| kanzure_ | I like how whenever java is brought up, real programmers just go silent. | 11:38 |
| kanzure_ | Also, I remembered that there exists an online personal management agency that works solely by email (ok, and by phone and such)-- apparently you email in your todo list, calendars, appointments, etc., and they organize the information for you, send you reminders, help you out with traveling, etc. | 11:42 |
| kanzure_ | but I don't know if they are a *proactive* agency (i.e., "oh, I see that you'll need this in advance, so I'm going to go phone them for you and see what's up") | 11:42 |
| kanzure_ | "A MMORPG with emphasis on world simulation (inspired by Majesty). Features: object de/composition (repices), object aging, random quests, dynamic social enviroment, dynamic fame, AI, ecology" | 11:49 |
| kanzure_ | http://sourceforge.net/projects/yammog/ | 11:49 |
| kanzure_ | ah that's right. Many games have internal recipe engines. | 11:49 |
| parodyoflanguage | Hey guys. | 12:13 |
| parodyoflanguage | Do any of you know of any existing open source software for physics simulations that *isn't* developed for gaming? | 12:13 |
| parodyoflanguage | Even the wikipedia article on dynamical simulation seems to be about development for games. | 12:14 |
| kanzure_ | http://biotype.biology.dal.ca/biol3101/virus.pdf - Viruses in the sea. | 12:32 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/oceanography/zij/ocn621/reading-virus.pdf - Marine | 12:32 |
| kanzure_ | viruses ... | 12:32 |
| kanzure_ | http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/plosonline/%3Frequest=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0000045?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0040368 - | 12:32 |
| kanzure_ | The Marine Viromes of Four Oceanic Regions. | 12:32 |
| kanzure_ | http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/7/3528 - Previously Unknown Virus | 12:32 |
| kanzure_ | Infects Marine Diatom. | 12:32 |
| kanzure_ | It depends, parodyoflanguage. There are some very fine-tuned simulators but for very specific subsets of physics. | 12:33 |
| procto | parodyoflanguage: I mean, what do you call a "physics simulation"? | 12:47 |
| parodyoflanguage | Yeah, not really what I'm looking for. I'm sure the technology exists, it just isn't free. | 12:47 |
| procto | are you looking into simulating mechanics? | 12:47 |
| procto | or what specifically? | 12:47 |
| parodyoflanguage | procto: Yeah, pretty much. | 12:47 |
| procto | specifically what sort of mechanics? | 12:47 |
| procto | the best mechanics simulators are developed for games | 12:48 |
| procto | because physicists rarely need them these days | 12:48 |
| procto | and engineeers have specific tools | 12:48 |
| procto | that simulate things like material tolerances etc. | 12:48 |
| parodyoflanguage | Well, honestly, I want to eventually be able to create a machine in BRL-CAD and then simulate it's operation to aid in it's design. | 12:48 |
| procto | for that purpose one of the game engines is probably ideal | 12:49 |
| procto | it would have the easiest to use API | 12:49 |
| procto | and should be more than realistic enough | 12:49 |
| parodyoflanguage | Well, I'm afraid of cartoon physics, procto. | 12:49 |
| procto | that's what you tweak values fr | 12:49 |
| parodyoflanguage | Games aren't interested in accuracy. | 12:49 |
| procto | you're basically asking for "realistic startup values" | 12:49 |
| procto | rather than a different engine | 12:49 |
| parodyoflanguage | And I'll also need to be able to find quantitative values for force, stress, torque, etc. | 12:50 |
| parodyoflanguage | Again, not a priority for games. | 12:50 |
| parodyoflanguage | Not realistic, "real". Not something that looks realistic, but that has the actual values according to a computer model with a specified margin of error. | 12:51 |
| procto | the more high end game engines will allow you input these values | 12:51 |
| parodyoflanguage | Are any of the high end engines free software? | 12:51 |
| parodyoflanguage | BTW, I also need an output of those values. | 12:52 |
| kanzure_ | "I'm considering options for CAM router: buy kit, build someone else's design, or design my own. Any advice?" | 12:52 |
| kanzure_ | parodyoflanguage: You're probably going to be interested in something that does PDE simulations | 12:53 |
| kanzure_ | for instance, OpenFOAM should be able to do PDEs for stress/strain analysis | 12:54 |
| kanzure_ | and give you a mesh over your BRLCAD-device-thingy that shows where the most heat will build up (and maybe break your object), etc | 12:54 |
| kanzure_ | You can take material variables from places like matweb.com I guess. | 12:54 |
| kanzure_ | You know, writing a tutorial on how to design, say, a screw and two flat metal plates or something, | 12:55 |
| kanzure_ | using BRLCAD, and then how to simulate stress/strain from different possible scenarios in OpenFOAM, would be a nice tutorial :) | 12:55 |
| procto | parodyoflanguage: the functionality you require exists within PRO/Engineer | 12:55 |
| parodyoflanguage | Well, it will take a while to learn BRLCAD first :) | 12:55 |
| procto | but I don't think there are any viable free alternatives | 12:55 |
| parodyoflanguage | Thanks for the replies. Now I have some things to google for. | 12:56 |
| parodyoflanguage | Have you guys seen Iron Man when Stark is designing the Iron Suit? That would be cool :) | 12:58 |
| kanzure_ | Uh, technically I don't even know if BRLCAD has its own stres/strain analyzer built in | 12:58 |
| kanzure_ | (haven't looked/asked) | 12:58 |
| kanzure_ | procto: I've tried getting ProE to work on linux to no success :/ | 12:59 |
| kanzure_ | same with AutoCAD 2008 and 2009. What a shame. | 12:59 |
| procto | I'm trying to see if there are any free FEM tools | 12:59 |
| procto | (that's finite element analysis) | 12:59 |
| kanzure_ | openfoam, openflower, | 12:59 |
| kanzure_ | hold on a sec | 12:59 |
| procto | I've used a bunch of CFD tools | 12:59 |
| procto | but that's not the point here | 12:59 |
| kanzure_ | many of the CFD tools do FEM | 12:59 |
| kanzure_ | the open ones, I mean | 13:00 |
| kanzure_ | uh oh, is my server down? | 13:00 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Scramjet | 13:00 |
| kanzure_ | there we go. | 13:00 |
| kanzure_ | I have a large list of software packages there, but it's CFD. | 13:00 |
| procto | yah | 13:00 |
| kanzure_ | There's also OpenFDS or something. | 13:00 |
| procto | parodyoflanguage: well, you're gonna want to use some FEM tool | 13:01 |
| kanzure_ | http://openfem.sf.net/ | 13:01 |
| kanzure_ | http://digg.com/software/Open_Source_FEM_packages | 13:01 |
| kanzure_ | http://impact.sf.net/ | 13:01 |
| parodyoflanguage | procto: Cool, that's exactly it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_element_analysis | 13:01 |
| kanzure_ | parodyoflanguage: Would you please keep a wiki record of what you're finding and searching for? | 13:01 |
| kanzure_ | you can freely edit my wiki | 13:02 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/FEA | 13:02 |
| kanzure_ | or some other page of your choice. | 13:02 |
| parodyoflanguage | Will do, might be slow going though. | 13:04 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 13:04 | |
| -!- SL4observer [n=someone@stnbmb01bbh-ac05-59-9.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 13:05 | |
| -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbh-ac05-59-32.dial.mts.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] | 13:07 | |
| -!- SL4observer [n=someone@stnbmb01bbh-ac05-59-9.dial.mts.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 13:07 | |
| -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbh-ac05-59-9.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 13:07 | |
| gene | http://www.awgh.org/?p=21 | 13:09 |
| gene | this is epic | 13:09 |
| gene | wonder if It could run on cellpones | 13:09 |
| kanzure_ | yay he uses OpenCV | 13:10 |
| parodyoflanguage | Heh, OpenFem requires KDE 1.1.2 :) | 13:10 |
| gene | OpenFem | 13:13 |
| gene | ? | 13:13 |
| gene | oh cool | 13:14 |
| kanzure_ | gene: parodyoflanguage is compiling a list of open source FEA tools :-) | 13:16 |
| kanzure_ | (maybe) | 13:16 |
| gene | Finite element mesh? | 13:16 |
| gene | can you combine that stuff with some CFD tools to simulate balloons? | 13:17 |
| kanzure_ | yes | 13:19 |
| kanzure_ | wait, the elastic material dynamics might be a but funky | 13:19 |
| kanzure_ | Not sure. | 13:19 |
| kanzure_ | I'm mostly familiar with rigid body simulations, not with simulations where materials are changing shape | 13:19 |
| gene | me too | 13:20 |
| gene | I get to learn all about that sort of thing in solids | 13:20 |
| gene | we get to do finite element calculations by HAND | 13:20 |
| gene | or so I hear | 13:21 |
| gene | oops guess not | 13:22 |
| parodyoflanguage | :) | 13:22 |
| parodyoflanguage | The idea is that the computer should be doing all the thinking :) | 13:22 |
| gene | yeah | 13:23 |
| gene | teachers aren't real fond of it yet | 13:23 |
| kanzure_ | hm. I don't understand, | 13:23 |
| kanzure_ | how are CSG kernels *not* parametric modeling kernels? | 13:23 |
| kanzure_ | parametric kernels just mean being able to change the dimensions of different aspects, right? | 13:24 |
| kanzure_ | in CSG, like in BRLCAD, you can edit the parameters of the different shapes and lines that you have | 13:24 |
| gene | like dimensions in solidworks? | 13:25 |
| kanzure_ | yes | 13:25 |
| kanzure_ | there's two main types of CAD kernels: CSG, and b-rep (boundary representation) | 13:25 |
| kanzure_ | but as far as I can tell, b-rep is just the ability to make a special type of shape and add it into the CSG library | 13:25 |
| kanzure_ | "Parametric feature based modelers use change states to maintain information about building the model and use expressions to constrain associations between the geometric entities. This ability allows a user make a modification at any state and to regenerate the model's boundary representation based on those changes. This ability is called a transmigration operation." | 13:26 |
| kanzure_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parametric_feature_based_modeler | 13:26 |
| kanzure_ | ah, so the "maintenance of constraints" is probably a big deal | 13:26 |
| kanzure_ | although that could be an extra script in BRLCAD for all I care.. | 13:26 |
| kanzure_ | woah, wtf. My father wants to impose some restrictions on my computing hours "because you type too loud and I can't concentrate" | 13:42 |
| kanzure_ | this being the first time he's ever brought it up in years. | 13:42 |
| parodyoflanguage | kanzure: Get a quieter keyboard. | 13:44 |
| kanzure_ | but then I'd have to turn off the computer | 13:44 |
| kanzure_ | the motherboard turns off when it's touched, so. | 13:45 |
| parodyoflanguage | Oh, you want to keep your uptime? :) | 13:51 |
| -!- Netsplit wolfe.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: ybit, drazak, Overand, parodyoflanguage, fenn_, amaruk, willPow3r, bkero, boogles, jm|earth, (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) | 13:56 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: gene, jm|earth, wrldpc, bkero, procto, PeerInfinity, amaruk, willPow3r, parodyoflanguage, ybit (+4 more) | 13:57 | |
| -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbh-ac05-59-9.dial.mts.net] has quit [] | 14:14 | |
| -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@121-73-144-159.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 14:22 | |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/dean_kamen.html <- what Dean Kamen should have done to make a killing with his Segway | 14:45 |
| -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p4FDC1388.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121]"] | 14:50 | |
| kanzure_ | huh, the set of "individuals who own industrial engineering firms" and "individuals who post over 10,000 posts on a forum" is nonzero | 15:53 |
| bkero | kanzure_: small time operations | 15:56 |
| kanzure_ | actually not | 15:57 |
| kanzure_ | hm, nevermind | 15:58 |
| kanzure_ | 17 years of experience. | 15:58 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/List_of_industrial_manufacturing_automation_engineering_design_firms#RND_Automation_.26_Engineering | 15:59 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.3dpartstream.net/ | 16:43 |
| -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@c-24-16-134-189.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 16:49 | |
| -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@c-24-16-134-189.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 16:50 | |
| gene | heh | 17:51 |
| gene | so happy birthday kanzure | 17:51 |
| kanzure_ | thanks | 17:55 |
| gene | what the heck, my microscope just decreased in resolution | 18:00 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] | 18:01 | |
| -!- emlyno [n=emlyn@ppp121-45-44-196.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:16 | |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:20 | |
| gene | kanzure, is your box EMP proof? | 18:21 |
| kanzure_ | probably not? | 18:23 |
| gene | you sure? | 18:23 |
| kanzure_ | http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/03/2327255 "Universities Patenting Student Ideas" | 18:23 |
| gene | guess what? Our uni doesn't do that | 18:25 |
| gene | they aren't allowed too | 18:25 |
| emlyno | damned patents | 18:25 |
| kanzure_ | so the owner of RND Automation got back to me pretty quick by email | 18:27 |
| gene | refresh me again on that | 18:28 |
| gene | patents aren't so evil if you own them | 18:28 |
| kanzure_ | gene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s3IlIE4Yuk | 18:28 |
| kanzure_ | that's RND. | 18:28 |
| emlyno | yes they are, absolutely they are | 18:30 |
| emlyno | tradgedy of the anticommons | 18:30 |
| emlyno | (sorry don't mind me) | 18:30 |
| gene | what did you contact them for? | 18:34 |
| gene | hold on don't post yet | 18:34 |
| gene | about to replug | 18:34 |
| kanzure_ | replug? | 18:34 |
| emlyno | gene: yestersay we were talking about NXT and I was saying a brick that could just be a command interpreter, receiving and sending commands via bluetooth, would be good... | 18:35 |
| emlyno | gene: it exists http://lejos.sourceforge.net/icommand.php | 18:35 |
| -!- gene_ [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:36 | |
| gene_ | back | 18:36 |
| gene_ | so what did you contact them for? | 18:36 |
| emlyno | off topic: http://hackaday.com/2008/12/29/passive-multidimensional-input/ | 18:42 |
| gene_ | cool though | 18:45 |
| gene_ | there is no topic | 18:45 |
| emlyno | apparently there is, it's "pick one" :-) | 18:50 |
| emlyno | gene: yestersay we were talking about NXT and I was saying a brick that could just be a command interpreter, receiving and sending commands via bluetooth, would be good... | 18:51 |
| emlyno | it exists http://lejos.sourceforge.net/icommand.php | 18:51 |
| emlyno | (apologies if you already know about this) | 18:51 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 18:52 | |
| kanzure_ | http://www.meau.com/eprise/main/sites/public/DOWNLOADS/-search_results?SType=0&DocType=015&SessionNum=&UserID=&Division=00015&Opt1=Yes&submit1=Search&Family= | 18:54 |
| kanzure_ | possibly interesting CAD files from mitsubishi | 18:54 |
| kanzure_ | "Jesus saves. Buddha makes incremental backups." | 19:34 |
| parodyoflanguage | Why do they offer their CAD files? I'm asking in the respect of whether there is some advantage by which other companies would offer their CAD files as well. | 20:02 |
| kanzure_ | Probably it's a commonly requested piece of repair information. | 20:03 |
| parodyoflanguage | hmm | 20:03 |
| kanzure_ | So, the debian developers are not very optimistic about "recipe substitutions". | 20:04 |
| parodyoflanguage | on their mailing list? | 20:04 |
| kanzure_ | http://groups.google.com/group/linux.debian.devel/browse_thread/thread/22cbd9db3382b6c3/5ebb0d7afb450853?#5ebb0d7afb450853 | 20:04 |
| kanzure_ | yes | 20:04 |
| kanzure_ | http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/01/msg00070.html | 20:04 |
| kanzure_ | http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/01/msg00094.html | 20:05 |
| kanzure_ | those two being the useful responses. | 20:05 |
| parodyoflanguage | Yeah, I really like the idea of a semantic shell, but I don't think the *nix culture is there yet in the developer community. | 20:09 |
| kanzure_ | http://please.kissordiss.us/ <- Hot or Not for youtube videos. | 20:09 |
| kanzure_ | The issue isn't whether they are there yet, | 20:09 |
| kanzure_ | it's an actual technical issue | 20:09 |
| kanzure_ | The problem is that it might not be entirely *possible* | 20:10 |
| kanzure_ | which presents a problem for us since we're hoping to do that with hardware packages | 20:10 |
| kanzure_ | (i.e., runtime dependencies and runtime output information, so that we know how we can replace one unit in a factory with another, or something) | 20:10 |
| parodyoflanguage | Why isn't is technically possible? | 20:10 |
| parodyoflanguage | Are you worried about incommensurable data types? | 20:11 |
| kanzure_ | Not quite that, but rather the exceptions to the rules | 20:11 |
| kanzure_ | For instance, there are some shell programs that accept input like this: ./proggy <somevariable>:<blah> | 20:11 |
| kanzure_ | where as others do: --blah --thingy1=<some filename> <more stuff here> | 20:12 |
| kanzure_ | and the output could be all sorts of things | 20:12 |
| parodyoflanguage | Well, you're going to need to catologue the different syntaxes. | 20:12 |
| kanzure_ | Now, technically it is possible to do this *if* you do everything from scratch to conform with your standards | 20:12 |
| parodyoflanguage | The days of doing things from scratch are over :) | 20:13 |
| kanzure_ | but this involves rewriting most software | 20:13 |
| kanzure_ | (and it would involve redesigning most hardware) | 20:13 |
| parodyoflanguage | Yeah, hardware is several orders of magnitude more difficult, but one thing I'd love to see would be higher-order recyclying. | 20:14 |
| kanzure_ | I don't think you know what I'm talking about | 20:15 |
| parodyoflanguage | Hmm, tough one. If I don't, I wouldn't know that I don't, would I? :) | 20:15 |
| parodyoflanguage | What I have in mind are adapters from one kind of input to a certain output needed by another program/device. | 20:16 |
| parodyoflanguage | hello? | 20:19 |
| kanzure_ | Hello | 20:26 |
| kanzure_ | yeah, basically | 20:26 |
| kanzure_ | but this is more like a specification for a way of somebody to package up software into a downloadable unit | 20:26 |
| kanzure_ | where within this downloadable unit it says "this is the type of input, and here's how to supply it to the program in a way that doesn't make the program explode" | 20:26 |
| kanzure_ | One method that would work is 'partial recipe substitutions'. Instead of automatically hooking up substitutes, a list can be returned for replacements, and end-users would have to figure out the specifics. | 20:27 |
| parodyoflanguage | I think, though, once you got started catalogueing the basic utilities and people find it useful, that future app-makers would integrate their apps into your system. | 20:27 |
| -!- parodyoflanguage [n=klh@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 20:28 | |
| -!- parodyoflanguage [n=klh@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 20:28 | |
| kanzure_ | interesting, a "pen lathe" :) | 20:31 |
| kanzure_ | Now, one way that it could be made to work is if there was a 'file system' for manufacturing, i.e. where each 'block' is a pallet | 20:33 |
| kanzure_ | and then inputs must be those file nodes in the file system | 20:33 |
| kanzure_ | but adding unnecessary overhead (which that *will* do) is kinda silly | 20:33 |
| parodyoflanguage | You mean like a block of material? | 20:34 |
| kanzure_ | No, I mean like a container for a block of material. | 20:34 |
| kanzure_ | http://tmml.sourceforge.net/doc/tmml/tmml-dtd.html Tcl manual markup language | 20:37 |
| kanzure_ | hrm | 20:37 |
| kanzure_ | oh, it's just for human-readable crap | 20:37 |
| parodyoflanguage | :) | 20:38 |
| kanzure_ | see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_page_(Unix) | 20:38 |
| -!- parodyoflanguage [n=klh@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] | 20:38 | |
| -!- parodyoflanguage [n=klh@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 20:38 | |
| parodyoflanguage | Crap, sorry. | 20:39 |
| parodyoflanguage | You mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallet | 20:39 |
| kanzure_ | " To this day, virtually every Unix command line application comes with its man page, and many Unix users perceive a lack of man pages as a sign of low quality; indeed, some projects, such as Debian, go out of their way to write man pages for programs lacking one. " | 20:39 |
| kanzure_ | yes | 20:39 |
| kanzure_ | see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_page_(Unix) | 20:39 |
| parodyoflanguage | (Forgot to copy it to clipboard) :( | 20:39 |
| kanzure_ | "Automated palletizing of bread with industrial KUKA robots at a bakery in Germany" | 20:39 |
| parodyoflanguage | Yeah, I know what a man page is. | 20:40 |
| gene_ | palletizers are cool | 20:40 |
| kanzure_ | Wo maintains the main 'man' program? | 20:41 |
| kanzure_ | *Who | 20:41 |
| gene_ | huh? | 20:41 |
| kanzure_ | gene_: have you installed ubuntu yet? | 20:41 |
| gene_ | what the Magi supercomputer? | 20:41 |
| gene_ | no | 20:41 |
| kanzure_ | there's a program on nearly all linux distributions called 'man' | 20:41 |
| kanzure_ | it's basically a help command | 20:42 |
| gene_ | I tried to back up my hardrive on another drive but the other drive didn't work | 20:42 |
| parodyoflanguage | I'm seeing if it's in GNU core utils | 20:42 |
| gene_ | well I have had the monkey stop running on me before | 20:42 |
| kanzure_ | GNU does 'texinfo' | 20:42 |
| kanzure_ | what use is Wikipedia if it doesn't keep track of the maintainer of a software package? | 20:43 |
| parodyoflanguage | I don't think core utils has man. | 20:43 |
| parodyoflanguage | Well, they prefer texinfo. | 20:44 |
| kanzure_ | http://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/ | 20:46 |
| parodyoflanguage | Dunno, that seems to be an unsearchable question. | 20:47 |
| parodyoflanguage | But, if you want to semanticize the command-line tools, you might want to talk with the maintainers of core-utils. | 20:49 |
| kanzure_ | behold the power of the man pages | 20:49 |
| kanzure_ | Man was originally written by John W. Eaton (jwe@che.utexas.edu) | 20:49 |
| parodyoflanguage | hah :) | 20:49 |
| parodyoflanguage | It was in man man huh :) | 20:49 |
| gene_ | heh we could contact him | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | present day maintainer (as of 2001): Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | hm, the formal name is now man-db | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | Eaton was working on it in 1990. | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | gah. it's as old as me. | 20:50 |
| kanzure_ | " | 20:51 |
| kanzure_ | John W. Eaton is the initial and main author of Octave, a system for numerical computations with a language that is mostly compatible with MATLAB, but is available as a free software." | 20:51 |
| kanzure_ | hm, he's now at Wisconsin | 20:51 |
| kanzure_ | So, if I made a time machine to travel back in time to the 60s and 70s, would anybody else join me in hunting down and murdering anyone writing software programs that would become ungoogleable because of their simple names? | 20:54 |
| gene_ | no | 20:54 |
| gene_ | that would interfere too much with the timestream | 20:54 |
| kanzure_ | http://packages.qa.debian.org/m/man-db.html | 20:55 |
| parodyoflanguage | Yeah. The economy would have long ago collapsed due to the inefficiency of having to write out "program_manual" instead of "man" :) | 20:55 |
| parodyoflanguage | Well, back to work. | 20:56 |
| kanzure_ | ok, Colin has been emailed. | 21:11 |
| gene_ | what are you emailing him about? | 21:23 |
| kanzure_ | http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/01/msg00070.html | 21:25 |
| kanzure_ | http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/01/msg00094.html | 21:25 |
| kanzure_ | http://heybryan.org/shell.html | 21:25 |
| gene_ | Ok I am a bit unfamiliar with that | 21:26 |
| gene_ | is it related to skdb? | 21:26 |
| kanzure_ | yes | 21:27 |
| kanzure_ | but in a weird way :) | 21:27 |
| gene_ | how? | 21:27 |
| kanzure_ | just imagine everything about 'software' being about runtime inputs/outputs on hardware (unit processes) | 21:28 |
| gene_ | ok | 21:28 |
| kanzure_ | so instead of "input parameters" being file formats, it's ... a block of wood | 21:28 |
| kanzure_ | or whatever | 21:28 |
| gene_ | ok | 21:31 |
| gene_ | So I got an idea for automating skdb a bit | 21:32 |
| gene_ | setup bounties | 21:32 |
| gene_ | design an effective HF leacher win $1000 | 21:32 |
| kanzure_ | http://packages.debian.org/about/debtags#works-with-format::man <- the debtags approach that Erich was talking about | 21:35 |
| kanzure_ | you know, Eclipse might have a plugin for this | 21:44 |
| kanzure_ | a "right click, replace class with something else that has the same virtual method" | 21:44 |
| kanzure_ | s/Eclipse/vim/ | 21:44 |
| gene_ | kanzure tell me how does something like a webcam decrease in resolution? | 22:28 |
| kanzure_ | resolution as in the number of pixels? | 22:28 |
| kanzure_ | for instance, old webcams used to work at only 320x280 resolution. | 22:28 |
| gene_ | yeah | 22:31 |
| gene_ | well my webcam | 22:31 |
| gene_ | or microscope really | 22:31 |
| kanzure_ | that might be a configuration thing. Maybe it has multiple modes. | 22:32 |
| gene_ | decreased in resolution by a lot | 22:32 |
| gene_ | by like a factor of four | 22:32 |
| gene_ | tried to change it | 22:32 |
| -!- emlyno [n=emlyn@ppp121-45-44-196.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 22:33 | |
| gene_ | thesoftware(which was probably written in one night and intended for another product) says it's the highest resolution | 22:33 |
| gene_ | tried unistalling it and reinstalling it, no effect | 22:34 |
| gene_ | and before you ask, no the software doesn't work on linux | 22:35 |
| gene_ | (without wine of course) | 22:35 |
| kanzure_ | did you try gphoto2? | 22:36 |
| gene_ | no | 22:37 |
| kanzure_ | ok. manual support for alternative recipes. In the metadata yaml file let's add a variable to keep a list of files that have the recipes. erm, but at the same time the dependencies still have to be properly exposed, so different recipe versions make the overall package have different dependencies. | 22:55 |
| gene_ | http://hackaday.com/2009/01/04/parallel-parking-system/#more-7509 | 23:00 |
| gene_ | off topic | 23:00 |
| gene_ | could some other program be cause my camera to be messed up? | 23:03 |
| gene_ | Could my camera have been sapped by high radiation? | 23:03 |
| kanzure_ | I don't know. | 23:04 |
| gene_ | well thanks for input | 23:05 |
| kanzure_ | install on another computer, if the resolution is still down then it's a hardware issue | 23:05 |
| kanzure_ | try to find a firmware reset button. | 23:05 |
| kanzure_ | http://alioth.debian.org/~fjp/debtree/ debtree — package dependency graphs on steroids | 23:08 |
| gene_ | program writing tools: http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog/template.htm | 23:23 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!