| --- Day changed Sat Feb 28 2009 | ||
| kanzure | http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/counting.htm | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | gene http://woodgears.ca/marbleadd/index.html | 00:00 |
| fenn | watch the video | 00:00 |
| gene | Seen it | 00:00 |
| gene | I get it | 00:00 |
| kanzure | are there any cheap and commonly available photopolymerization agents? | 00:01 |
| kanzure | i.e., shine a UV led and it polymerizes? | 00:01 |
| fenn | kodak makes some for PCB masking | 00:01 |
| fenn | awful stuff i'm told | 00:01 |
| gene | http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/02/howto_working_gears_from_junk_mail.html | 00:01 |
| gene | cheap photopolymerization agents | 00:02 |
| kanzure | I want wax that is photopolymerizable. | 00:02 |
| kanzure | but this isn't likely. | 00:02 |
| gene | hey will 8 mm film making supplies work? | 00:02 |
| kanzure | hm? | 00:02 |
| kanzure | what does that include? | 00:02 |
| gene | store near you sells photoresponsive stuff | 00:03 |
| gene | 8 mm film is small | 00:03 |
| fenn | 8mm just changes color | 00:03 |
| fenn | it doesnt turn solid or liquid | 00:03 |
| gene | argh | 00:03 |
| fenn | i think you pasted the wrong url | 00:04 |
| gene | in that case stamp making supplies | 00:04 |
| gene | oh that | 00:04 |
| gene | that IS NOT A GEAR | 00:04 |
| fenn | indeed | 00:04 |
| fenn | it's a cog :P | 00:04 |
| gene | yeah | 00:04 |
| fenn | cogwheel if you want to get technical | 00:04 |
| kanzure | thiolene prepolymer? | 00:04 |
| kanzure | screw this, what about all of this "gel casting" talk on diybio? | 00:05 |
| fenn | what about it | 00:05 |
| gene | noobies | 00:05 |
| gene | How do I make gello mold? | 00:05 |
| kanzure | nevermind | 00:06 |
| fenn | another 80 messages .. reading email is turning into a part-time job | 00:06 |
| kanzure | you can only come up with casting, and molds, but whatever | 00:06 |
| gene | http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-your-Own-Polymer-Stamps/ | 00:06 |
| gene | photopolymer | 00:06 |
| gene | not exactly cheap | 00:06 |
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| gene | but available | 00:07 |
| kanzure | hm, maybe glue that only hardens in response to UV light | 00:07 |
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| gene | http://www.physorg.com/news154951518.html | 00:08 |
| gene | delete | 00:09 |
| kanzure | http://www.deco-coat.com/uv.html | 00:09 |
| kanzure | UV curable resins? | 00:09 |
| gene | delete ebola | 00:09 |
| kanzure | http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?70,8372,21441 UV curable resins | 00:09 |
| gene | and ways to make them ? | 00:09 |
| gene | and ways to make them! | 00:09 |
| gene | I mean | 00:09 |
| gene | kmoddl time | 00:11 |
| kanzure | http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1535-5535/PIIS1535553504032903.pdf | 00:21 |
| kanzure | blargh. | 00:21 |
| gene | http://kmoddl.library.cornell.edu/model.php?m=137&movie=show | 00:25 |
| * fenn grumbles about paywalls | 00:28 | |
| kanzure | Photosensitive Polymer from Ionic Self-Assembly of Azobenzene Dye and Poly(ionic liquid) and Its Alignment Characteristic toward Liquid Crystal Molecules | 00:29 |
| kanzure | " Highly ordered lamellar nanostructure and photosensitive character were confirmed. Under the irradiation of pulsed UV laser with certain fluences, a pronounced optical anisotropic surface with the preferred direction perpendicular to the pulsed polarization or regular periodic grooves microstructure surface parallel to the pulsed polarization was obtained." | 00:29 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Photosensitive%20Polymer%20from%20Ionic%20Self-Assembly%20of%20Azobenzene%20Dye%20and%20Poly(ionic%20liquid)%20and%20Its%20Alignment%20Characteristic%20toward%20Liquid%20Crystal%20Molecules.pdf | 00:30 |
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| kanzure | http://315thomas.blogspot.com/2008/08/adventures-with-uv-resin.html | 00:54 |
| kanzure | " recently, i found a product called magic glos, which is just like regular resin except there is no mixing involved and it cures under a uv light or sunlight." | 00:54 |
| kanzure | " | 00:55 |
| kanzure | Magic-Glos is a one-part formula (no mixing required) that cures in about 5-10 minutes in direct sunlight or under an ultraviolet fluorescent " | 00:55 |
| kanzure | "Lisa Pavelka is now marketing a new UV cured resin, Magic-Glos. " | 00:55 |
| kanzure | http://www.scrapbookexpress.com/lipasisema.html | 00:55 |
| kanzure | 1 oz bottle is $10 | 00:55 |
| fenn | not very much resin in that little bottle | 00:56 |
| kanzure | what is it? besides patented. | 00:56 |
| fenn | probably acrylic with photo-initiators | 00:56 |
| kanzure | is that difficult to come up with? | 00:56 |
| fenn | methyl methacrylate i mean | 00:56 |
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| fenn | i remember something about keeping fiberglass resin out of sunlight.. maybe it's UV reactive | 00:57 |
| fenn | of course not all UV's are created equal | 00:57 |
| kanzure | "The freshly laid-up or "green" boat hulls and decks are sometimes exposed to direct sunlight to facilitate drying and curing the fiberglass resins | 00:58 |
| kanzure | " | 00:58 |
| kanzure | "fiberglass paint" | 00:58 |
| kanzure | UV curable paint would also be nice | 00:59 |
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| kanzure | http://builders.reprap.org/2008/02/cheap-reliable-uv-resins-confirmed.html | 01:02 |
| kanzure | nail polish. | 01:30 |
| kanzure | water curable polyurethane resin | 01:31 |
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| kanzure | what is the thickness of nail polish? | 01:32 |
| kanzure | bwahah, microfluidic circuits on fingernails | 01:33 |
| gene | you know I might have to go back to the library to scan in the fluidics article talking about making fluidic ICs with photopolymer | 01:43 |
| gene | see what they used | 01:43 |
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| fenn | wow. http://openwetware.org/wiki/2020(S09)_Lecture:week_1 | 02:04 |
| fenn | i dont know why i find this page so alluring | 02:06 |
| kanzure | why is nailpolish lithography not turning anything up | 02:09 |
| kanzure | yet there's lots of results for 'nail polish art' | 02:09 |
| fenn | because "nailpolish" is a consumer item, silly | 02:10 |
| kanzure | shit, I just realized the cultural plot behind the Nail Polish Art initiative | 02:10 |
| fenn | research labs don't use consumer items | 02:10 |
| * kanzure thinks of nailing Polish art | 02:10 | |
| kanzure | where can I buy nail polish in bulk? | 02:10 |
| kanzure | everything on amazin is like 0.5 oz. | 02:10 |
| kanzure | *amazon | 02:10 |
| fenn | hint: you're doing it wrong | 02:11 |
| kanzure | hm. | 02:12 |
| kanzure | should I ask nicely? | 02:12 |
| kanzure | alibaba, maybe? | 02:12 |
| fenn | don't use nail polish | 02:12 |
| kanzure | what's better? | 02:12 |
| kanzure | and a consumer item. | 02:12 |
| fenn | possibly fiberglass resin | 02:12 |
| kanzure | links. | 02:12 |
| fenn | gah | 02:12 |
| kanzure | otherwise it doesn't exist :/ | 02:12 |
| fenn | do you want me to google for you? | 02:13 |
| kanzure | well, fiberglass resin was a term I've googled tonight | 02:13 |
| kanzure | it didn't really go anywhere substantial | 02:13 |
| fenn | http://www.acehardwaresuperstore.com/bondo-polyester-fiberglass-resin-p-70704.html?ref=42 | 02:13 |
| kanzure | lots of bullshit web pre-1.0 ad sites | 02:13 |
| kanzure | volume? | 02:13 |
| fenn | i've seen 1 gallon cans | 02:14 |
| kanzure | what wavelengths is it curable at? | 02:14 |
| fenn | also, fwiw nail polish is methacrylate | 02:14 |
| fenn | source of methacrylate might be the clear casting resin at hobby/craft stores | 02:14 |
| kanzure | so I was thinking of printing out some silly patterns and running food coloring dyes through it, on laminated papers, which I would let float in a tiny rectangular bed of methacrylate tomorrow | 02:15 |
| kanzure | and then put that under a big uv lamp in the bio lab | 02:16 |
| kanzure | but lamination, as gene pointed out, isn't necessarily going to be flat | 02:16 |
| fenn | UV cure lacquer might be methacrylate? | 02:16 |
| fenn | if you're serious about this I bet les knows all about it | 02:16 |
| kanzure | yeah, I emailed my mom about nailpolish, she does all sorts of woodworking refenishing with nasty cancer-causing chemicals too | 02:17 |
| fenn | ah wonderful | 02:17 |
| fenn | i mean, um, my condolences | 02:17 |
| kanzure | heh | 02:17 |
| gene | I'm telling you kanzure, CA glue is the way to go | 02:17 |
| kanzure | CA? | 02:17 |
| fenn | CA is water catalyzed | 02:17 |
| kanzure | cyanoacrylate? | 02:17 |
| gene | yes | 02:17 |
| gene | kanzure, let's make us some logic gates | 02:18 |
| kanzure | I just want to send some dye through it first, then I'll think big | 02:18 |
| fenn | http://www.qcsupply.com/Products/581.aspx?cm_ven=Shopping%20Engine&cm_cat=Froogle&cm_pla=Building%20Supplies&cm_ite=KB25%20Acrylic%20Resin%20-%201%20Gallon | 02:19 |
| fenn | farm supply? who would have guessed | 02:19 |
| fenn | hmm nevermind | 02:20 |
| gene | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Fluidics%20Quaterly%206/50.jpg | 02:20 |
| gene | it's practically ready to go | 02:20 |
| kanzure | the silhouettes? | 02:21 |
| kanzure | curvature of the book when it was scanned in? :( | 02:21 |
| gene | exactly | 02:21 |
| gene | argh | 02:21 |
| gene | nah they're pretty flat | 02:21 |
| kanzure | .. | 02:22 |
| fenn | looks like crop circles | 02:22 |
| gene | oh god | 02:23 |
| fenn | GENE I THINK YOU'RE ON TO SOMETHING | 02:23 |
| gene | let's just don an and gate then | 02:24 |
| kanzure | where's a lamination machine? | 02:24 |
| gene | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Fluidics%20Quaterly%206/48.jpg | 02:24 |
| gene | library, university copy center | 02:24 |
| fenn | is there a place on campus where they do huge inkjet prints for small sums of money? | 02:26 |
| kanzure | how huge? | 02:26 |
| gene | I don't know | 02:26 |
| kanzure | I have lab access to printers, so.. | 02:26 |
| gene | but I've seen huge inkjets | 02:26 |
| fenn | let's say 36"x72" | 02:26 |
| gene | http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_nkwZmicrofilmQ20cameraQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZR40QQ_mdoZ | 02:27 |
| gene | I wonder if we have a microfilm camera | 02:27 |
| kanzure | why? | 02:27 |
| fenn | huh? what's that for? | 02:27 |
| gene | for making copies of documents | 02:28 |
| gene | tiny copies of documents | 02:28 |
| gene | used to be real popular a while back | 02:29 |
| gene | why? | 02:29 |
| gene | so we can layout complex fluidic circuits | 02:29 |
| kanzure | finger nail tips that glow when your partner has teh aids. | 02:29 |
| gene | congrats you've found a killer app | 02:30 |
| fenn | rofl | 02:30 |
| kanzure | fenn gets it :/ | 02:30 |
| gene | I get it | 02:31 |
| gene | how do microfluidic circuits like that work anyway? | 02:31 |
| fenn | you just add some magic dust to shrinky dinks | 02:31 |
| gene | a reacts with b, then what? | 02:31 |
| fenn | and then voila! instant immunoassay | 02:32 |
| gene | hey I got a UV led, wonder if that will work | 02:33 |
| gene | you know if we you shine a UV led through a microscope then you have a focused beam of UV light pointed at whatever you are looking at under the microscope | 02:34 |
| kanzure | http://www.bellasugar.com/2627519 woman paints entire car with nail polish; rain water computes fibannaci sequence but only when going 88 mph. | 02:35 |
| kanzure | *fibonacci | 02:35 |
| gene | bacteria zapper | 02:35 |
| gene | fibonacci? screw that, run a cellular automata or something | 02:36 |
| kanzure | I like how the first result is 'woman paints car with nail polish" | 02:36 |
| kanzure | and the third one is "removing nail polish off a car" | 02:36 |
| gene | So I've been thinking of something | 02:36 |
| kanzure | the second one is "ebay Find of the Day: WTF?!?! The Nail Polish Art Car for $60k ..." | 02:36 |
| gene | so you can make fluidic sound sensors and fluidic control circuitry | 02:37 |
| gene | so why not making some sort of fluidic sound source tracking robot? | 02:38 |
| gene | one that homes in engine noises | 02:38 |
| gene | like idling cars | 02:40 |
| gene | approach idling car, steal gas run away | 02:40 |
| gene | find another car | 02:40 |
| fenn | approach idling car, wash windshield, demand $5 | 02:40 |
| gene | yeah that would work too | 02:41 |
| gene | but think about it, cylinder engines have a distinct sound | 02:41 |
| gene | wheels going down the road do also | 02:41 |
| gene | maybe even figure out how fast the car is going using the doppler effect | 02:42 |
| gene | I really want to make a fluidic robot | 02:43 |
| fenn | approach idling car, present doppler effect data, blackmail for gasoline in return for not handing data over to police | 02:43 |
| gene | yeah | 02:44 |
| fenn | you know kanzure the fingernail immunoassay is really a great idea | 02:46 |
| kanzure | wonder if it could work within 5 to 15 minutes. | 02:46 |
| gene | yeah, but how do you keep an immunoassay good sitting on your fingernail? | 02:46 |
| kanzure | what are you asking? | 02:47 |
| gene | don't you have to refrigerate immunoassays? | 02:47 |
| gene | protect them from UV at the very least? | 02:47 |
| kanzure | " | 02:48 |
| kanzure | Clearview Complete HIV 1/2 and Clearview HIV 1/2 Stat-Pak are rapid tests for the detection of HIV 1 and HIV 2 antibodies in blood, serum, or plasma samples. Results are provided within 15 minutes." | 02:48 |
| kanzure | "iDiagnostics Rapid HIV Test distributes a WHO and UNICEF approved, non-FDA-approved home test. The company sells a blood test and a urine test. Similar to a home pregnancy test the patient collects a drop of blood/urine and drops the sample onto a cassette. Results are read visually in 15 minutes." | 02:49 |
| fenn | why 15 minutes? | 02:50 |
| gene | well I'm goggling out | 02:50 |
| kanzure | "NOTICE to United States customers: due to FDA regulations, we do not and cannot ship orders to addresses in the United States." | 02:50 |
| fenn | this should be marketed as an "adult novelty" | 02:50 |
| kanzure | "Our flagship product is a rapid HIV home-testing kit. An HIV test is diagnostic test that determines the presence of HIV infection in human blood. Similar to a home pregnancy test, our rapid test gives results in as little as 3 minutes" | 02:50 |
| kanzure | hrm, 3 minutes | 02:51 |
| fenn | though really teenagers are probably the best target demographic | 02:51 |
| gene | yeah, but can you convince people who are drunk to use it? | 02:51 |
| fenn | gene: you put it on before you go out | 02:51 |
| gene | man, some people are going to hate this | 02:51 |
| kanzure | no | 02:52 |
| kanzure | fingernail stylings are popular. | 02:52 |
| kanzure | and it gets close to the source. | 02:52 |
| gene | yeah I know that | 02:52 |
| fenn | "teen novelty" doesnt really convey anything does it | 02:52 |
| gene | people as in the religious right | 02:53 |
| kanzure | oh please. | 02:53 |
| kanzure | nobody cares. | 02:53 |
| fenn | it doesn't matter what they say, any publicity is good publicity | 02:53 |
| gene | yup | 02:54 |
| gene | and trolling is fun | 02:54 |
| fenn | no legislator in their right mind would ban condoms | 02:54 |
| fenn | even though religious wackjobs of all kinds are against them | 02:55 |
| kanzure | I like the Family Guy quote on this topic. "if you use a condom, your penis will fall off and into the ninth dimension of hell." | 02:55 |
| gene | so what do we need to do to make this real? | 02:55 |
| gene | should we carry out any experiments tomorrow? | 02:55 |
| fenn | "We ended up using my design choice because I am more stubborn. This is not a great success story in terms of teamwork, but it did produce the best plane in the class." | 02:56 |
| kanzure | I'll probably show up at the lab with some nail polish | 02:56 |
| gene | what lab? | 02:56 |
| kanzure | sata's. | 02:56 |
| gene | it's usually closed on the weekends? | 02:56 |
| kanzure | uh? | 02:56 |
| kanzure | I have a key? | 02:56 |
| gene | I wouldn't use the microscope | 02:56 |
| gene | yeah but the building itself is locked | 02:56 |
| kanzure | I doubt that | 02:57 |
| kanzure | grad students? | 02:57 |
| fenn | so, maybe i'm clueless bout this but seems the magic dust is more important than the microfluidic channels | 02:57 |
| kanzure | fenn: magic dust? | 02:57 |
| gene | it is on sunday | 02:57 |
| fenn | i'd want an array of antibody detection spots for many different pathogens that change color on exposure | 02:57 |
| kanzure | right | 02:57 |
| kanzure | btw, joseph jackson has been working on this for some other things | 02:58 |
| kanzure | guido actually. joseph is just helping to commercialize it. | 02:58 |
| kanzure | I mean, color-changing ATP-related reactions | 02:58 |
| fenn | cool, what are they working on? | 02:58 |
| kanzure | for disease detection | 02:58 |
| gene | hmm... can you actually make it this small? | 02:58 |
| kanzure | well, besides the small portable pcr machine thingy, | 02:58 |
| kanzure | iirc, some method of diagnosing a disease. | 02:58 |
| kanzure | involving color-changing liquid | 02:59 |
| gene | why not keychain sized with throaway packets | 02:59 |
| kanzure | I have the talk recorded somewhere actually :) | 02:59 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/biobarcamp/ | 02:59 |
| kanzure | yay | 02:59 |
| kanzure | it is the third one | 03:00 |
| fenn | -_- | 03:00 |
| kanzure | but I was being an idiot, don't listen to me | 03:00 |
| kanzure | let me go back over it. | 03:00 |
| worldpeace | i'd like a transdermal patch with a microfluidics lab on a chip to tell me concentrations of vitamins/minerals I have in my blood. protein etc. | 03:00 |
| kanzure | oh, it's PCR | 03:00 |
| fenn | i'd like any sort of microfluidics "lab on a chip" but so far it all seems to be vapor hypeware | 03:01 |
| kanzure | fenn, how are biology slides made? | 03:01 |
| kanzure | the ones with trapped samples? | 03:01 |
| fenn | like for class demos? | 03:02 |
| kanzure | yes | 03:02 |
| kanzure | do they weld the edges shut? | 03:02 |
| fenn | some kind of varnish | 03:02 |
| fenn | i used to do that with my parents' microscope | 03:02 |
| fenn | cover slip glue | 03:02 |
| kanzure | hm. | 03:02 |
| fenn | http://www.shopmedvet.com/product/7930/71 | 03:03 |
| fenn | it wasn't superglue i dont t hink | 03:03 |
| kanzure | it would be nice to have a box of different fluidic circles on slides. | 03:03 |
| kanzure | *circuits | 03:03 |
| kanzure | or patterns. | 03:03 |
| fenn | there's no way i'm going to watch that video | 03:04 |
| kanzure | don't. | 03:04 |
| kanzure | I really don't recommend it | 03:04 |
| kanzure | it's just PCR anyway, I browsed through it | 03:04 |
| kanzure | http://www.rsc.org/publishing/journals/LC/ | 03:10 |
| kanzure | yeah, I need to do a rip of this journal. | 03:10 |
| kanzure | "Effect of channel geometry on cell adhesion in microfluidic devices" | 03:10 |
| kanzure | hm, cellulose acetate fabrication via e-beam lithography | 03:11 |
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| * kanzure sleeps | 03:12 | |
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| kanzure | CD immunoassay is slightly more practical now. | 03:22 |
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| UtopiahGHML | kanzure: regarding social scalability http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13176775 and the more relax http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/how_many_facebook_friends.php | 06:09 |
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| fenn | social scalability is a lie. you don't have that many friends regardless what facebook says | 06:36 |
| * fenn reads the article | 06:39 | |
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| kanzure | http://www.medeabeauty.com/shields.htm nail polish stencils | 11:06 |
| kanzure | http://www.airheadairbrush.com/Fingernail.htm | 11:06 |
| kanzure | http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Hand-painted_20at_20home_20nail_20stencils | 11:06 |
| kanzure | http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/spray-on_20nailpolish | 11:10 |
| kanzure | http://www.diginailart.com/ | 11:10 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Performing%20chemical%20reactions%20in%20virtual%20capillary%20of%20surface%20tension-confined%20microfluidic%20devices%20-%20sharpies%20-%20nail%20polish%20-%20glass%20surfaces%20-%20hydrophobicity.pdf | 11:16 |
| kanzure | a must-read :-) | 11:16 |
| kanzure | "A one-step thick film printing process has been established for patterning hydrophobic polyvinyl chloride (PVC) substrate materials with hydrophilic cellulose acetate." | 11:17 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/The%20design%20and%20fabrication%20of%20autonomous%20polymer-based%20surface%20tension-confined%20microfluidic%20platforms.pdf | 11:18 |
| kanzure | hey, what's the resolution of that e-ink voodoo magic? | 11:21 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Refreshable%20microfluidic%20channels%20constructed%20using%20an%20inkjet%20printer.pdf | 11:22 |
| kanzure | Refreshable microfluidic channels constructed using an inkjet printer | 11:22 |
| kanzure | "This paper describes microfluidic channels that can be erased and then reconstructed. These channels were constructed between two stacked glass slides. These slides had ground and hydrophobic surfaces, and a line had previously been drawn on their surfaces using an inkjet printer with a water-soluble liquid as its “ink”." | 11:23 |
| kanzure | "A water solution was injected between the slides, and it flowed along the previously drawn line by itself. Thus, a channel filled with the solution was formed, though there was no real groove on the slides. We investigated the application of various liquid materials as the “ink” based on their viscosity, boiling point, solubility in water, etc." | 11:23 |
| kanzure | " A suitable material was 2-(2-ethoxyethoxy)ethanol. The channel width that we could obtain ranged from 470 to 3000 μm. We could rapidly construct straight, curved, and crossed channels. In addition, we could erase these channels by rinsing with acetone and then reconstruct them using the same procedure." | 11:23 |
| kanzure | Fabrication of microsensors using unmodified office inkjet printers | 11:25 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Fabrication%20of%20microsensors%20using%20unmodified%20office%20inkjet%20printers.pdf | 11:25 |
| kanzure | 11:28 | |
| kanzure | Construction of refreshable microfluidic channels and electrophoresis along them " In addition, we demonstrated the electrophoresis of a dye (bromophenol blue) in the channel." | 11:28 |
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| fenn | yay shopbots woo. | 13:57 |
| fenn | i didnt even get to see it run. partly my fault as we left early | 14:01 |
| fenn | but they weren't planning on running it, if that tells you anything | 14:01 |
| fenn | instead there were talks about how to apply gold leaf, or 'sculpt nouveau' metallic paint, or how to seal a MDF vacuum table | 14:02 |
| kanzure | waah, CVS doesn't sell UV curable nail polish | 14:03 |
| fenn | sue! | 14:03 |
| kanzure | http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=nail+salon+near+24th+and+Guadalupe,+Austin+TX&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=48.555061,51.152344&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=13 | 14:03 |
| * kanzure looks for a nail salon | 14:03 | |
| kanzure | oh, it's at dobie mall | 14:05 |
| * kanzure goes back down. | 14:05 | |
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| kanzure- | Hm. | 15:31 |
| kanzure- | So the nail polish I bought isn't really suitable for this. It would only work as a direct-write sort of tech. | 15:32 |
| kanzure- | although I didn't try the acetone wash or acetone pad, or any sort of stencil or mask. | 15:32 |
| kanzure- | but the "sharpie + two glass slides + two alligator clips + water" has given me interesting results. | 15:32 |
| kanzure- | I screwed up and didn't use a straight edge for my lines (making a column defined by two strokes on one side of the glass), | 15:33 |
| kanzure- | so consequently the water flow profile is really messed up- there are three places where the water goes down, and near the edges of the sharpie ink, it curves away (towards the ground / towards me) | 15:33 |
| kanzure- | and then applying additional pressure on the clips makes the water go up/down. | 15:33 |
| kanzure- | (in between the two slides is some tape attached to itself; so at the two ends of the slide, there's an alligator clip and some tape in between them, so that there's a few micrometers of separation between the two slides) | 15:34 |
| kanzure- | oh snap :) | 15:46 |
| kanzure- | it's like playing a pin ball machine, but with bubbles of water and algae. | 15:46 |
| kanzure- | guided by the lines drawn by sharpie. | 15:46 |
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| bkero | kanzure-: are you a bubble wizard? | 15:51 |
| kanzure- | I am now. | 15:54 |
| kanzure- | I can make little whirlpools in the bubble. | 15:55 |
| bkero | I have an irssi hilight set to bubbles. :P | 16:05 |
| kanzure- | Why? | 16:12 |
| kanzure- | Okay. Two concentric circles. Pour in some water, swish it around, and a bubble will follow the inner perimeter, and algae clumps up in the bubble. | 16:44 |
| kanzure- | I don't know what pattern to draw. | 16:47 |
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| kanzure- | gene: holy shit. | 17:05 |
| kanzure- | sata loves it. | 17:06 |
| gene | what? | 17:06 |
| kanzure- | it works :) | 17:06 |
| gene | what works? | 17:06 |
| kanzure- | sharpie microfluidics | 17:06 |
| gene | really? | 17:06 |
| kanzure- | pinball with bubbles and algae. | 17:06 |
| kanzure- | *pinball machine | 17:06 |
| gene | you in the lab? | 17:06 |
| kanzure- | yes | 17:06 |
| gene | hahahahah | 17:06 |
| kanzure- | sata is too | 17:06 |
| gene | so did you make a working microfluidic circuit? | 17:07 |
| kanzure- | no, just a way to control the path of the bubble | 17:07 |
| kanzure- | I was hoping to use a dry erase board for rapid prototyping | 17:07 |
| kanzure- | and then I realized that it's dry erase | 17:07 |
| gene | so you did make something? | 17:07 |
| kanzure- | and thus not hydrophobic. | 17:07 |
| kanzure- | yes, I made a device where the water is directionally controlled | 17:08 |
| kanzure- | oh, and with little vortices in the bubble too. | 17:08 |
| gene | I'm coming down there right now | 17:08 |
| kanzure- | (well, just one vortex/whirlpool really) | 17:08 |
| kanzure- | bring glass. | 17:08 |
| gene | glass? | 17:08 |
| kanzure- | please? | 17:08 |
| gene | How about some superglue? | 17:09 |
| kanzure- | why? | 17:09 |
| gene | a glass of water? | 17:09 |
| kanzure- | hm, no | 17:09 |
| kanzure- | I mean, I can continue to use slides | 17:09 |
| kanzure- | but it's kind of a pain because eventually they will need to be washed | 17:09 |
| kanzure- | I can use the dry erase board with the sharpie, but then that is also a pain because that's even harder to wash | 17:10 |
| gene | hold on | 17:10 |
| gene | I'll see if I can't find a CD or something | 17:10 |
| kanzure- | broken CDs would be nice. | 17:10 |
| kanzure- | clear CDs even better. | 17:11 |
| kanzure- | maybe we can spin them down in the CD drive. | 17:11 |
| gene | hahah | 17:11 |
| kanzure- | seriously. | 17:11 |
| gene | yeah I know | 17:11 |
| kanzure- | I wonder where it would go though | 17:11 |
| gene | got unused blank cd | 17:11 |
| kanzure- | it's not like there's much of an option when spinning it in a CD drive. | 17:12 |
| gene | then spin it on something else | 17:12 |
| kanzure- | I'm not sure about putting weird other things into a CD drive. | 17:13 |
| kanzure- | other than maybe DVDs or mini CDs. | 17:13 |
| kanzure- | maybe a hard drive. | 17:13 |
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| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFoC-uxRqCg "The Nano Song". I really want this to turn into a grey goo doom song. | 19:56 |
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| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Droplet%20microfluidics.pdf | 20:20 |
| kanzure | droplet microfluidics. | 20:20 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 20:20 |
| kanzure | page 15 shows droplet microfluidics with cells within the droplets. | 20:20 |
| kanzure | I wonder if you can pump emulsions through these systems. | 20:21 |
| kanzure | hm, the droplet microfluidic system I made today is more like a bubble resting on 4 "rails". | 20:37 |
| kanzure | erm, 2 rails. | 20:37 |
| kanzure | magneticly-writable microfluidic system: coat many magnetic beads in sharpie ink. Place them between two glass slides. Move an external magnet around to position them to your liking. | 20:40 |
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| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/CFD%20-%20Designing%20microfluidic%20components%20for%20enhanced%20surface%20delivery%20using%20a%20genetic%20algorithm%20search%20-%20automated%20design.pdf | 20:54 |
| kanzure | neat, automated design of microfluidics without solving the flow equations. apparently a simple approximation is good enough. | 20:54 |
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| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Design%20and%20evaluation%20of%20a%20Dean%20vortex-based%20micromixer%20-%20separations.pdf <-- Dean vortex-based micromixer/separator | 21:02 |
| kanzure | probably easier than a spiral, but anyway. | 21:02 |
| kanzure | when sata saw microfluidics/ (in the paper dir), he asked me if I had written a crawler to find good science papers | 21:11 |
| kanzure | while it's true that I do have some code in the works for that, it's sadly not the case. | 21:11 |
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| * katsmeow-afk peeks in | 21:27 | |
| kanzure | Hey katsmeow-afk. | 21:28 |
| kanzure | I made a microfluidic device today. | 21:28 |
| kanzure | You missed out on it. | 21:29 |
| katsmeow-afk | whats it do? | 21:29 |
| * katsmeow-afk isn't all here atm | 21:29 | |
| kanzure | Directs the motion of a bubble/droplet full of algae. | 21:29 |
| katsmeow-afk | on what surface? | 21:31 |
| katsmeow-afk | or in what material? | 21:31 |
| kanzure | Between glass surfaces. | 21:31 |
| katsmeow-afk | can i pose a question? | 21:31 |
| kanzure | No, never. | 21:31 |
| kanzure | (go ahead) | 21:31 |
| katsmeow-afk | do you know of practical affordable small electrorheologic devices? | 21:31 |
| kanzure | electrical control of fluids? | 21:32 |
| * katsmeow-afk nods affiermative | 21:32 | |
| kanzure | I'm not even sure what such a device would do. | 21:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | the electrical grid replaces the mechanical valve,, is about all | 21:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | but it would make instant control of small hydraulics possible | 21:33 |
| katsmeow-afk | catch is, afaik, what i can afford would eitehr clump, grow mold, or rust the system | 21:33 |
| kanzure | a grid replaces a valve? | 21:33 |
| kanzure | what? | 21:33 |
| * katsmeow-afk turns to google | 21:34 | |
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| katsmeow-afk | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=2Jx&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&ei=FQGqSfXRJ5SQmQf14YjcDQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=electrorheological&spell=1 | 21:34 |
| kanzure | gene: two papers for you to look at | 21:34 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Design%20and%20evaluation%20of%20a%20Dean%20vortex-based%20micromixer%20-%20separations.pdf dean vortices | 21:35 |
| kanzure | method of not having to solve CFD equations: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/CFD%20-%20Toolbox%20for%20the%20design%20of%20optimized%20microfluidic%20components%20-%20without%20solving%20flow%20equations.pdf | 21:35 |
| kanzure | from the same authors as that last link: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/CFD%20-%20Designing%20microfluidic%20components%20for%20enhanced%20surface%20delivery%20using%20a%20genetic%20algorithm%20search%20-%20automated%20design.pdf (on the same topic more or less) | 21:35 |
| gene | electrorheological fluid | 21:35 |
| gene | you can make that real nice and easy | 21:35 |
| katsmeow-afk | that will not rust or grow mold or clump? | 21:36 |
| gene | ummm no | 21:36 |
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| katsmeow-afk | constantly maintaining the system is not a good thing | 21:36 |
| kanzure | he seems to have died | 21:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | this is an example of cheap and grows mold and clumps : A simple ER fluid can be made by mixing cornflour in a light vegetable oil or (better) Silicone oil. | 21:37 |
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| gene | kanzure repost | 21:37 |
| gene | firefox crashed | 21:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | this is an example of cheap and grows mold and clumps : A simple ER fluid can be made by mixing cornflour in a light vegetable oil or (better) Silicone oil. | 21:37 |
| gene | yeah I know | 21:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | use a real irc client! | 21:37 |
| gene | how about silica particles and silicone oil | 21:38 |
| gene | what do you want ER fluid for? | 21:38 |
| gene | power armor? | 21:38 |
| katsmeow-afk | to make fingers | 21:38 |
| gene | for? | 21:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | for to pick things up? | 21:39 |
| gene | for? | 21:39 |
| kanzure | gene: two papers for you to look at | 21:39 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Design%20and%20evaluation%20of%20a%20Dean%20vortex-based%20micromixer%20-%20separations.pdf dean vortices | 21:39 |
| kanzure | method of not having to solve CFD equations: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/CFD%20-%20Toolbox%20for%20the%20design%20of%20optimized%20microfluidic%20components%20-%20without%20solving%20flow%20equations.pdf | 21:39 |
| kanzure | from the same authors as that last link: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/CFD%20-%20Designing%20microfluidic%20components%20for%20enhanced%20surface%20delivery%20using%20a%20genetic%20algorithm%20search%20-%20automated%20design.pdf (on the same topic more or less) | 21:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | i found some 0.014inch/0.37mm wire rope | 21:40 |
| katsmeow-afk | and some very small cheap but good bearings | 21:40 |
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| katsmeow-afk | erg | 21:40 |
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| gene | kanzure chat me those papers | 21:42 |
| gene | I can't open that many pdfs | 21:42 |
| gene | hmmm... firefox started doing this recently | 21:42 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Design%20and%20evaluation%20of%20a%20Dean%20vortex-based%20micromixer%20-%20separations.pdf dean vortices | 21:42 |
| kanzure | method of not having to solve CFD equations: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/CFD%20-%20Toolbox%20for%20the%20design%20of%20optimized%20microfluidic%20components%20-%20without%20solving%20flow%20equations.pdf | 21:42 |
| kanzure | from the same authors as that last link: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/CFD%20-%20Designing%20microfluidic%20components%20for%20enhanced%20surface%20delivery%20using%20a%20genetic%20algorithm%20search%20-%20automated%20design.pdf (on the same topic more or less) | 21:43 |
| gene | so katsmeow tell me more about what you want to do with ER fluid | 21:44 |
| gene | you can use ER fluid like an actuator? | 21:45 |
| gene | are you trying to make a robotic hand? | 21:51 |
| * katsmeow-afk nods | 21:53 | |
| katsmeow-afk | in the rare spare time | 21:53 |
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| kanzure | please googlestalk: "David R. Mott", Naval Research Laboratories, Laboratory of Computational Physics and Fluid Dynamics. | 21:54 |
| kanzure | Research Aerospace Engineer, Laboratory for Computational Physics and Fluid Dynamics, Code 6404, | 21:54 |
| kanzure | Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC 20375, Senior member, AIAA. | 21:54 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 21:54 |
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| gene | ok I need a real irc client | 21:57 |
| kanzure | yes. | 21:57 |
| gene | firefox is about as stable as an inverted cone right now | 21:58 |
| gene | know any good ones | 21:58 |
| gene | did I miss anything | 21:58 |
| kanzure | I use irssi | 21:59 |
| katsmeow-afk | i use mirc | 21:59 |
| katsmeow-afk | afk | 22:00 |
| kanzure | googlestalk: http://www.shopmedvet.com/product/7930/71 | 22:01 |
| kanzure | erm | 22:01 |
| kanzure | wtf? | 22:01 |
| kanzure | http://www.shopmedvet.com/product/7930/71 | 22:01 |
| kanzure | 8. D.R. Mott, C.R. Kaplan, and E.S. Oran. A Robust Solver for Incompressible Flow on | 22:01 |
| kanzure | Cartesian Grids with Colocated Variables," NRL Technical Memorandum Report | 22:01 |
| kanzure | NRL/MR/6404-05-8858, 2005. | 22:01 |
| kanzure | http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA438536 | 22:03 |
| kanzure | "We describe a second-order finite-volume formulation for solving incompressible flow problems on Cartesian grids using a colocated arrangement of variables. A projection method is used, in which a provisional cell-centered velocity is obtained by integrating the effects of advection and viscous forces over the numerical time step. Interface velocities are then interpolated from the provisional cell-centered velocities and corrected using the solution of a Poission equation for the pressure distribution. The cell-centered velocities are then interpolated from the corrected interface velocities. This pair of interpolation steps adds numerical diffusion that mimics a normal viscous stress, and the form of this damping term is similar to that which comes from stabilizing the Poisson equation for pressure by adding a term that is proportional to the fourth-derivative of pressure. The method requires no extra damping terms in order to maintain stability." | 22:03 |
| gene | huh? | 22:04 |
| gene | googlestalk? | 22:04 |
| kanzure | it's ok, I've done it for you. | 22:04 |
| kanzure | I was having some trouble finding David R. Mott | 22:04 |
| kanzure | NRL hides its scientists well. | 22:04 |
| gene | what do you mean wtf | 22:04 |
| kanzure | forget it :) | 22:04 |
| gene | ok | 22:04 |
| gene | forgotenn | 22:04 |
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| gene | I have displeased the flaming fox | 22:06 |
| gene | I believe I must make a sacrifice to the gods | 22:07 |
| katsmeow-afk | bak | 22:09 |
| gene | I must obtain a goat | 22:10 |
| gene | on second thought that might not be enough | 22:10 |
| gene | I must sacrifice a 4 TB harddrive | 22:11 |
| katsmeow-afk | AAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKK | 22:11 |
| * katsmeow-afk faints | 22:11 | |
| gene | it can't be a virgin 4 TB harddrive either | 22:11 |
| gene | it has to be a full one with important unbacked up data | 22:12 |
| katsmeow-afk | altho, upon waking, i wonder when the drive capacity will be such that filling it with data will take so long the drive will be beyond it's mtbf | 22:12 |
| gene | mtbf? | 22:12 |
| gene | I hope such a thing happens | 22:13 |
| gene | because then I can start filling it up with everything | 22:13 |
| gene | and I mean EVERYTHING | 22:13 |
| katsmeow-afk | mean time before failure | 22:13 |
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| gene | crashed again | 22:17 |
| gene | optimized for performance not battery life | 22:17 |
| gene | let's see if that works | 22:17 |
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| gene | crashed again | 22:41 |
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| katsmeow-afk | crashed again | 22:43 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-97-56.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 22:46 | |
| gene | firefox crashed again | 22:46 |
| gene | norton says I'm protected so I must be ok | 22:47 |
| katsmeow-afk | lol | 22:48 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-97-56.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 22:50 | |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-97-56.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 22:54 | |
| gene | firefox crashed again | 22:54 |
| gene | http://www.diycalculator.com/sp-mechcomp.shtml#A5 | 22:57 |
| gene | z1 mechanical computer | 22:57 |
| gene | binary computer made without any knowledge of boolean math | 22:57 |
| * katsmeow-afk nods | 22:58 | |
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| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-97-56.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:09 | |
| gene | firefox crashed again | 23:09 |
| kanzure | http://mirror.sim.ul.pt/debian-paipix/pool/main/e/elmerfem/ | 23:12 |
| kanzure | has elmerfem_5.4.2-6~2lenny_i386.deb | 23:12 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-97-56.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 23:13 | |
| katsmeow-afk | firefox crashed again | 23:13 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-97-56.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:14 | |
| kanzure | hm, elmerfem is now installed. I wonder if dpkg is lying to me. | 23:16 |
| gene | firefox crashed again | 23:16 |
| gene | kanzure how many times have I said firefox has crashed again? | 23:16 |
| katsmeow-afk | 7 | 23:17 |
| gene | that isn't that much | 23:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-science@lists.debian.org/msg02704.html | 23:17 |
| kanzure | hm, apparently that email was in my inbox | 23:17 |
| * kanzure gives Antonio Amorim a cookie | 23:17 | |
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| Gene_H | hello world | 23:20 |
| gene | hey gene | 23:20 |
| Gene_H | hey | 23:20 |
| Gene_H | I'm ur doppelganger | 23:20 |
| gene | oh shit | 23:21 |
| -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-97-56.public.utexas.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] | 23:21 | |
| kanzure | why is it that gcc isn't installed? how was I compiling openfoam? | 23:24 |
| fenn | snorrk' | 23:26 |
| Gene_H | magic | 23:26 |
| Gene_H | and the switch was set for even more magic | 23:26 |
| Gene_H | firefox crashed again | 23:27 |
| kanzure | woah, ElmerGUI works. | 23:27 |
| kanzure | yay, it's meshing | 23:27 |
| kanzure | terminate called after throwing an instance of 'netgen::NgException' | 23:28 |
| kanzure | Aborted | 23:28 |
| kanzure | well fuck. | 23:28 |
| fenn | elmer looks pretty neat | 23:28 |
| fenn | i wonder how long it took to do this animation http://www.csc.fi/english/pages/elmer/examples/elastbeam | 23:29 |
| kanzure | I'll run it in a sec | 23:30 |
| kanzure | hm, I must not know how to run it. | 23:32 |
| fenn | please document what you did to install it while still fresh | 23:32 |
| kanzure | wget http://mirror.sim.ul.pt/debian-paipix/pool/main/e/elmerfem/elmerfem_5.4.2-6~2lenny_i386.deb ; apt-get install libqwt5-qt4 libvtk5-qt4; dpkg -i elmerfem_5.4.2-6~2lenny_i386.deb | 23:33 |
| kanzure | uh, and apparently "apt-get install gfortran gcc" because gcc wasn't installed? wtf? | 23:34 |
| * katsmeow-afk waves to fenn | 23:35 | |
| fenn | hihi | 23:37 |
| kanzure | fenn: katsmeow-afk showed up yesterday while your server was deadlike | 23:38 |
| fenn | i noticed, in the transient afterglow | 23:38 |
| kanzure | I'm still not sure who or what a katsmeow-afk is. | 23:38 |
| fenn | it's a katsmeow that's not at the keyboard | 23:38 |
| kanzure | hm. | 23:38 |
| katsmeow-afk | a kat's meow is her voice, and afk = away from keyboard | 23:38 |
| kanzure | I know what afk is. is my awkward way of asking fenn who this person might be. | 23:39 |
| Gene_H | maybe it is a robot? | 23:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | oh | 23:39 |
| Gene_H | kanzure you're a robot right? | 23:40 |
| kanzure | segmentation fault | 23:40 |
| katsmeow-afk | heh | 23:40 |
| Gene_H | you know we should look into DNA computers | 23:40 |
| Gene_H | maybe something like a neural network | 23:40 |
| Gene_H | made from DNA | 23:40 |
| katsmeow-afk | my eyesight isn't that good | 23:40 |
| Gene_H | oh god, then you might be a robot | 23:41 |
| kanzure | Gene_H: have you ever written an ANN? | 23:41 |
| kanzure | they suck more than the news makes them out to. | 23:41 |
| Gene_H | I don't know what an ANN is | 23:41 |
| kanzure | Artificial Neural Network. | 23:41 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, one is in #botters-ai, a-n-n-o-y-i-n-g | 23:42 |
| kanzure | katsmeow-afk: ah, well, I'm just a sophisticated Markov chain bot. | 23:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | kewl | 23:42 |
| fenn | god might be a robot? | 23:42 |
| fenn | this sounds terribly 17th century enlightenment | 23:42 |
| Gene_H | fenn, that's what some roboticist believe | 23:43 |
| katsmeow-afk | fenn, lets put him in a "chinese room" and test | 23:43 |
| Gene_H | Oh that's what an ANN | 23:45 |
| Gene_H | is | 23:45 |
| Gene_H | tried to make one on a graphing calculator | 23:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | oh, heh, feel free to ask Tiggr | 23:45 |
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| kanzure | any help on finding some elmer tutorials would be neat | 23:48 |
| kanzure | http://elmerfem.wiki.sourceforge.net/Getting+started+with+ElmerGUI | 23:48 |
| Gene_H | FEM, simulate me a balloon kanzure | 23:49 |
| kanzure | that's the best I've found, and it's not great. where's the samples? I didn't download source, for instance, since I just found a random .deb | 23:49 |
| kanzure | http://elmerfem.wiki.sourceforge.net/ElmerGUI | 23:49 |
| Gene_H | actually on second thought simulate a balloon-kite wifi node | 23:51 |
| fenn | indeed | 23:53 |
| kanzure | so I'm not entirely sure where the Heatequation came from, in that ElmerGUI.ppt file from the last link | 23:54 |
| kanzure | maybe it's hardcoded into the source base? because I don't see anyone inputting information into those parameter fields. | 23:54 |
| xp_prg | dude I got my carolina kit and I did not know the stuff had to be refrigerated! | 23:57 |
| fenn | what ppt? (not that i'd be able to see it) | 23:57 |
| xp_prg | it has been 3 days am I screwed? | 23:57 |
| fenn | xp_prg: you were screwed to begin with, get over it | 23:57 |
| kanzure | http://elmerfem.wiki.sourceforge.net/space/showimage/ElmerGUI.ppt | 23:57 |
| xp_prg | seriusly can I refrigerate it now or not? | 23:58 |
| Gene_H | xp_prg, is it a human? | 23:58 |
| xp_prg | no it is ecoli cells and flourscing proteins | 23:59 |
| Gene_H | really? | 23:59 |
| xp_prg | yes | 23:59 |
| Gene_H | do you actually have it? | 23:59 |
| xp_prg | yes | 23:59 |
| Gene_H | do you have a peltier cooler | 23:59 |
| fenn | kanzure: do i need libvtk5-qt4 or can i use libvtk5-qt3 (if you happen to know) | 23:59 |
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