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| kanzure | http://code.google.com/p/physim/ "A program that takes an XML document describing a free body diagram and simulates the system over a period of time." | 00:39 |
|---|---|---|
| * kanzure still needs a list of examples of different types of constraints that need to be evaluatable | 00:59 | |
| kanzure | the only constraints stuff I ever find when looking at CAD is about geometry, but I know there should (hypothetically?) be more than that. | 01:05 |
| kanzure | in fact, I haven't even seen a system that uses SI units as constraints between two parts in an assembly | 01:06 |
| kanzure | erm, I mean, quantities | 01:23 |
| kanzure | gee, I was talking about this in 2006? http://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/587715 | 01:29 |
| kanzure | implementing physical-quantities (the library) should be good enough for now. then basic chemistry (i.e., for particular materials, concentrations, etc.) these will be 'cookie crumbs' left as a list attached to labeled ports. | 01:43 |
| kanzure | search-shape-similarity-reeb stuff can come later (much later) if necessary | 01:43 |
| kanzure | (and in the mean time, interference checking is probably a better idea anyway) | 01:43 |
| kanzure | a first script that specifies a small object having a list of input and output ports would be nice, and then tie it in to the topsort and pq libraries. | 01:44 |
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| fenn | topsort? http://pypi.python.org/pypi/topsort/0.9 | 07:45 |
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| kanzure | yes. | 09:57 |
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| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/?C=M;O=D more stuff. | 10:34 |
| anthonyl | stuff :) | 10:42 |
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| kanzure | lots of stuff. | 10:57 |
| anthonyl | haha, ya.. your poor server is about to get a burst of traffic i think | 11:00 |
| kanzure | why's that? | 11:01 |
| anthonyl | dunno, from me downloading pdf's but really i'm kinda overexagerating a tad | 11:07 |
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| willPow3r | really. downloading pdfs from kanzure's connection actually inadvertently DoS's his server | 11:21 |
| anthonyl | wget -m *knowledge* | 11:31 |
| fenn | there's some 30GB there | 11:32 |
| fenn | in /books/ | 11:32 |
| fenn | or maybe more | 11:32 |
| UtopiahGHML | "wget -m *knowledge*" makes me think that Talis now offer to store your triple store http://blogs.talis.com/n2/cc for free (50M typles/10Gb restrictions apply, etc) | 11:33 |
| kanzure | btw, for /books/papers/ you can now grab from http://sata.serveftp.org/~bryan/papers/ | 11:33 |
| fenn | that's very nice of them | 11:33 |
| kanzure | nice of who? hehe | 11:34 |
| kanzure | I'm the sysadmin | 11:34 |
| fenn | talis | 11:34 |
| kanzure | ? | 11:34 |
| kanzure | oh, sorry, didn't see that message. | 11:34 |
| fenn | free hosting of data sets | 11:34 |
| kanzure | free hosting of your mom | 11:39 |
| kanzure | sorry, my teenager is showing | 11:39 |
| bkero | teenager | 11:39 |
| kanzure | fenn, I sent a request to OM for people to bombard me with types of constraints that a CAD system should have | 11:40 |
| kanzure | you previously mentioned 'protocol', but I've been ignoring it (not because I don't like it, but because I just haven't got around to it) | 11:40 |
| kanzure | it's important, but I think the data structure I proposed in the email to OM can handle it | 11:41 |
| kanzure | it would be something like a simple string comparison evaluator (i.e., the same way that a MIME type is checked :p) | 11:41 |
| fenn | it should support 'backwards compatible' interface | 11:42 |
| fenn | this is easily done with duck typing and class inheritance | 11:42 |
| kanzure | backwards compatible interface? | 11:42 |
| kanzure | "USB 3.0 ports work with USB 2.0" if that's what you mean | 11:43 |
| kanzure | (actually I don't think they do; don't recall the specs.) | 11:43 |
| bkero | USB 3.0 is longer | 11:44 |
| bkero | The extra pins are "behind" the usb2 ports in the slot | 11:44 |
| bkero | http://www.coolest-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/usb301.jpg | 11:44 |
| fenn | heh actually i was thinking usb2.0 and 1.1 but i wasnt sure they were actually backwards compatible in the spec or just de-facto | 11:46 |
| * fenn shakes head.. why didnt they go with power over ethernet | 11:46 | |
| fenn | kanzure: the point of "protocol" is to be able to define any interface spec in terms of physical quantities | 11:48 |
| fenn | and code | 11:48 |
| fenn | so that way you're guaranteed to be able to boil down all the different possible ways of representing something in to the same system | 11:49 |
| * fenn grumbles about lack of cheap myvu's on ebay when he actually wants to buy one | 11:49 | |
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| fenn | is there any documentation on wearable computers that was NOT written by steve mann? | 12:08 |
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| kanzure | fenn: be sure to document teh links you're finding. | 12:11 |
| kanzure | fenn: what? re: the point of 'protocol'. It's not for things like "TCP/IP" vs. "UDP"? I'm not particularly interested in evaluating/analyzing UDP down to the individual electrons being popped off the stack of a current :p | 12:11 |
| kanzure | erm, of a voltage differential | 12:11 |
| kanzure | erm. something like that. | 12:11 |
| fenn | it matters when you're building hardware | 12:12 |
| fenn | not TCP but the actual ethernet signal | 12:12 |
| fenn | (which seems to be rather difficult to track down on teh nets) | 12:13 |
| fenn | fr example USB runs at 10MHz with 5V differential signaling | 12:13 |
| fenn | these are physical quantities | 12:13 |
| fenn | oops 3.3V i mean | 12:14 |
| fenn | but there is code that goes along with these quantities as well, which turns a simple signal into a protocol | 12:14 |
| fenn | analog video signal is a good example to think about | 12:15 |
| fenn | so, wearcam.org is basically just steve mann's homepage | 12:16 |
| fenn | i'm trying to find different implementations of an eyetap (but so far i can't even seem to find just one) | 12:16 |
| kanzure | the pin specs for usb ypu mean/. | 12:20 |
| kanzure | ? | 12:20 |
| fenn | not pins, the electrical activity happening on the bus in response to various situations | 12:21 |
| fenn | for example, in order to get more than 50mA current you have to request it | 12:21 |
| kanzure | okay? | 12:22 |
| fenn | if you don't' request it, the usb port shuts down | 12:22 |
| kanzure | but you just tag it as following the USB standard, no? | 12:22 |
| kanzure | tag tag tag | 12:22 |
| fenn | like i said, i want to be able to represent standards in terms of basic physical quantities | 12:22 |
| fenn | with cheap usb gadgets there is a lock of standards-loophole-hacking going on | 12:23 |
| fenn | s/lock/lot/ | 12:23 |
| fenn | they don't necessarily conform to the standard as expected, but it works nevertheless | 12:23 |
| fenn | we can't simply ignore everything that isn't perfectly standards compliant | 12:24 |
| fenn | anyway tagging is a good easy start | 12:24 |
| kanzure | how would you imagine representing specs in terms of basic physical quantities? | 12:25 |
| fenn | some kind of grammar specification? | 12:27 |
| fenn | like ebnf | 12:27 |
| fenn | ideally something that would be computer-executable as is | 12:27 |
| kanzure | ebnf threw me off, apparently it's "e-BNF". what's the e for? | 12:28 |
| fenn | extended i think | 12:28 |
| fenn | the general idea is what's important | 12:28 |
| fenn | you define a set of production rules | 12:29 |
| fenn | i think they are just substitution rules | 12:29 |
| kanzure | hm. | 12:30 |
| kanzure | so what would have the grammar specification? the "usb tag points to the usb grammar spec thingy"? | 12:31 |
| kanzure | and then how would this grammar be used ? | 12:31 |
| kanzure | I just don't know what is being subjected to the substitution rules. the physical quantities? | 12:31 |
| fenn | in simulations | 12:31 |
| fenn | by unit tests | 12:32 |
| fenn | failure mode analysis and so on | 12:32 |
| fenn | honestly i'm not that familiar with computer grammar formalism | 12:33 |
| kanzure | basically it sounds like "partA has xyz port with this stuff, and it is controlled by this program here; partB has a compatible geometry, but with programB" | 12:34 |
| kanzure | and then we want to know whether or not programA and programB will kill each other | 12:34 |
| kanzure | or if they will operate together well? | 12:34 |
| kanzure | is that the deal? | 12:34 |
| kanzure | so I think that it would be reasonable to expect that the port information could be translated into free body diagram information | 12:35 |
| kanzure | and that this information could in general be thrown into an FEM simulator thingy | 12:36 |
| kanzure | but I've never seen an FEM work out two slightly incompatible modes of USB operation, for instance | 12:36 |
| fenn | yes that's' the idea | 12:37 |
| fenn | there are so-called "multi-modal" simulators already | 12:37 |
| fenn | or is it multi-domain | 12:38 |
| kanzure | I've seen multi-domain. | 12:38 |
| kanzure | frankly it seems like the information for those FEM simulations would have to be specified elsewhere | 12:38 |
| fenn | what information? | 12:39 |
| kanzure | in other words I don't see it as much of a block to skdb development | 12:39 |
| kanzure | the information on the scenario: like the two parts interfacing for instance | 12:39 |
| fenn | yeah | 12:39 |
| kanzure | and then the information for simulating USB entirely | 12:39 |
| kanzure | those are some very detailed simulations, and I don't know if skdb should have to provide all of the nasty details | 12:39 |
| kanzure | it should provide boundary conditions, or something | 12:39 |
| kanzure | but that's what's already being tagged with port information and such | 12:39 |
| kanzure | soo.. | 12:39 |
| fenn | round and round she goes | 12:40 |
| kanzure | ? | 12:40 |
| fenn | can you imagine if we had to have a committee meeting to decide anything? | 12:40 |
| kanzure | you'll have to submit paperwork to initiate a new imaginary scenario, fenn | 12:41 |
| kanzure | sorry, the office of paperwork submissions is closed for lunch at the moment | 12:41 |
| kanzure | so now. | 12:42 |
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| kanzure | let's say I write a class for ports, and it has a list of constraint objects which point to their evaluator and a string specifying the constraint expression itself | 12:44 |
| kanzure | the pointer to the evaluator would just be the evaulator class name I guess? | 12:44 |
| kanzure | when checking the compatibility of two given ports (portA, portB), for any constraints between the two with the same type of evaluator, the evaluator is executed | 12:45 |
| kanzure | and then an ok or no-go is returned | 12:45 |
| kanzure | the string expression has to somehow reference the other 'hypothetical object that this port might one day have to mate with', I think, and then set up some expression relating one of its properties to the property of the other | 12:46 |
| kanzure | or something | 12:46 |
| fenn | i wasn't aware of steve's latest 2mm frame design (see page 5) http://wearcam.org/carpe/carpe.pdf | 12:49 |
| fenn | i wonder about the resolution/cost ratio of fiber optic bundles | 12:50 |
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| kanzure | (so I imagine multiple evaluators will be written for different domains) | 12:51 |
| kanzure | but the one type that might be the most useful at first would be one that evaluates 'permissibles' | 12:51 |
| kanzure | which would consist of the range of a possible physical quantity going through a port | 12:51 |
| kanzure | for instance, a permissible torque of a port might specify the range of torque that it allows or can provide (depending on the direction of the torque) | 12:52 |
| kanzure | a permissible force, the same thing. | 12:52 |
| fenn | i think you'd want a triple for the constraint expression, not a string | 12:52 |
| fenn | A parallel-to B | 12:53 |
| fenn | pin-Z > 5V | 12:54 |
| fenn | middle part is the evaluation operator | 12:54 |
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| fenn | the noun objects classes (pin-Z, face-A) are what define the operators | 12:55 |
| kanzure | hm, I'm reminded of apache configuration expressions and .htaccess for allow/disallow | 12:56 |
| fenn | and please stop calling things ports unless they are actually a means of input/output to/from a system | 12:56 |
| kanzure | pipes? | 12:56 |
| fenn | interface! | 12:57 |
| kanzure | oh right. | 12:57 |
| kanzure | where are the operators defined? | 13:00 |
| kanzure | and the nouns get to be physical quantities? | 13:00 |
| fenn | i was going to explain that but i thought you might get OOP-fever and run off | 13:00 |
| kanzure | go ahead.. I might just back away slowly | 13:00 |
| fenn | in the pin-Z example, it's an instance of class "pin" which inherits from "conductor" and from that you get all the electrical evaluators | 13:01 |
| fenn | so they are just class methods | 13:01 |
| fenn | you know about overloading right? | 13:01 |
| kanzure | no | 13:02 |
| fenn | so i could overload the || operator to Geom.parallel_to() | 13:02 |
| kanzure | yes | 13:02 |
| kanzure | sorry, you mean the programming term | 13:02 |
| kanzure | yeah. | 13:02 |
| fenn | then when i type A || B if A and B are of te proper types (or have the right attributes) it gets evaluated | 13:03 |
| fenn | i know nothing about building a constraint solver | 13:03 |
| kanzure | I do not think making 'pin-Z' inherit from 'conductor' is a good idea in general. I was thinking that in the case where you have (partHere operator physical-quantity) the operator will know to check for constraints on the part that are of the same type as the physical quantity | 13:04 |
| fenn | obviously i want to avoid random thrashing; so there has to be some way to pass the constraints along, but i dont know what it's going to be doing with that info | 13:04 |
| fenn | yeah of course; i wouldnt want to type all that out either | 13:05 |
| fenn | but it's saying the same thing essentially | 13:05 |
| fenn | pin-Z connected to 5V means pin-Z conected to (hypothetical conductor at voltage of 5V) | 13:05 |
| kanzure | what do you mean by passing constraints along? | 13:06 |
| kanzure | pass from what to what, in what example scenario? | 13:06 |
| fenn | well i imagine the constraint solver wants to modify a bunch of variables | 13:06 |
| kanzure | ? | 13:06 |
| kanzure | example? | 13:06 |
| fenn | and if it had access to what the constraints were it would find some smart way to modify a particular variable first so as to minimize the search time | 13:07 |
| kanzure | the way I've been treating constraints has been as static things | 13:07 |
| kanzure | not as a multi-variable optimization problem | 13:07 |
| fenn | say your constraint is A || B | 13:07 |
| fenn | one way is to randomly rotate B around until the evaluator returns true | 13:08 |
| kanzure | and if it's not satisfied, you complain. | 13:08 |
| kanzure | you wouldn't rotate it, you would just set it or check it | 13:08 |
| fenn | another way is to return the angular difference and use iterative root-finding like newton-raphson or eulers method | 13:08 |
| kanzure | setting it to be true (by changing B's coords etc.) might create an interference, which is just something that needs to be checked | 13:09 |
| fenn | yes and for trivial constraints it's possible to just set it to the same angle | 13:09 |
| fenn | but these SMOP things like "just set it to the same angle" always turn into huge messes | 13:09 |
| kanzure | suppose you have two interfaces with surfaces (suppose they are interfacing pegs and a magical superglue medium that is unspecified/irrelevant) | 13:10 |
| kanzure | eh. well. it's hard to explain but I don't think parallelism is a problem here | 13:10 |
| kanzure | because this is about part mating, no? so it's kind of made to set it to be parallel | 13:10 |
| fenn | ok so something like two 1x2 lego bricks right? | 13:10 |
| kanzure | sure | 13:10 |
| kanzure | I guess it's possible that there is another parallel constraint somewhere | 13:10 |
| kanzure | ah, suppose you have three lego bricks | 13:11 |
| kanzure | two of the lego plancks have to be parallel, but connected by a lego brick in between (bridged) | 13:11 |
| fenn | isnt two complicated enough already? :s | 13:11 |
| kanzure | well I was thinking that the only time you would need parallelism is in mating two interfaces | 13:11 |
| kanzure | but that's not entirely true | 13:11 |
| kanzure | in the case of those three bricks, you start with part1, part2, part3, you mate part1 and part2, and then (part1+part2) with part3 | 13:12 |
| kanzure | so in the end it really is just a combination of parallel mates | 13:12 |
| kanzure | so maybe I was right | 13:12 |
| fenn | it's not just parallel | 13:12 |
| fenn | the lego studs have to fit into the lego holes | 13:13 |
| fenn | this is geometry + elastic deformation + some amount of force | 13:13 |
| fenn | and the geometry has some tolerance info too | 13:13 |
| fenn | because we're talking about a class of objects, not a specific lego brick that we've measured down to the nanometer | 13:14 |
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| fenn | anyway that's part mating, which is just a subset of constraints | 13:15 |
| * fenn curses the US education system for sucking so poorly | 13:15 | |
| fenn | bastards never taught multivariate calculus | 13:16 |
| fenn | the solver will have to handle discrete and continuous variables | 13:17 |
| fenn | so for example a chemical or a bolt size is a discrete variable | 13:17 |
| kanzure | right | 13:22 |
| kanzure | I still think that a multivariable constraints problem should be offloaded into another system | 13:22 |
| kanzure | for checking compatibility it should be a different issue. | 13:23 |
| kanzure | for instance, whether or not two interfaces should interface with each other based off of basic domain evaluations of what permissible forces | 13:23 |
| kanzure | has anyone ever played tetris up to a ridiculously high level and now everything is accelerated even after playing it? I'm sort of in that state right now | 13:23 |
| kanzure | and somehow symbols in words are now tetris objects being combined into weird shapes. hrm. | 13:23 |
| fenn | dude, the universe is a tetris game | 13:25 |
| fenn | duuuude | 13:25 |
| kanzure | totally | 13:28 |
| kanzure | in multivariable calculus you sometimes define permissible domains or ranges with other functions | 13:32 |
| kanzure | so that's kind of what I'm thinking here, especially re: the triples | 13:32 |
| kanzure | when it comes to geometric constraints, let's let the CAD packages that already do that, do that | 13:32 |
| kanzure | especially for large geometrical problems with lots of constraints | 13:32 |
| kanzure | but for non-geometrical constraints, I think we should provide that | 13:32 |
| kanzure | no? | 13:32 |
| fenn | right | 13:38 |
| fenn | i do want to retain some low-level control over what gets evaluated though | 13:39 |
| kanzure | what do you mean? | 13:43 |
| kanzure | I was thinking it would be nice to be able to specify ignore such and such parameters, or threshold ranges so that you can fuzzy-match stuff, etc., and other things like that | 13:43 |
| kanzure | thanks fenn for http://www.pythonocc.org/wiki/index.php/Install_Linux#Using_SCons | 14:54 |
| fenn | i think he might have fixed that already | 14:56 |
| kanzure | for non-geometric constraints, are we good to go with tuples? | 15:00 |
| fenn | for geometric constraints too | 15:03 |
| kanzure | no, because that involves multivariable constraints | 15:04 |
| fenn | so? | 15:04 |
| kanzure | I mean, a multivariable solver | 15:04 |
| fenn | so does everything else | 15:04 |
| fenn | you can't solve any constraint completely separately | 15:05 |
| fenn | it would be nice, but the universe hates you | 15:05 |
| fenn | design is all about tradeoffs | 15:05 |
| kanzure | so I guess there would have to be a way to "pin" a surface if it solves a constraint, and then go on to the next constraint, and if wants to pin another surface in such a way that it conflicts with the first operation, then it fails? but then that doesn't mean that no solution exists, so. | 15:07 |
| kanzure | blah. | 15:07 |
| kanzure | please don't make me write a multivariable constraints solution engine | 15:07 |
| kanzure | I guess I was proposing graphsynth as a backend for that to the brlcad people | 15:08 |
| kanzure | but it just finds "some" solutions, not necessarily optimal solutions | 15:08 |
| kanzure | (although it can find all solutions) | 15:08 |
| fenn | i'm just looking for "good enough" solutions | 15:08 |
| kanzure | something in the literature about constraint graphs | 15:11 |
| kanzure | "A constructive approach to solving 3-D geometric constraint systems using dependence analysis" | 15:16 |
| kanzure | fenn: hm, constraint solvers don't seem to be something solved. | 15:45 |
| fenn | heh | 15:49 |
| fenn | meta constraint solver | 15:49 |
| kanzure | throw in the phrase "hierarchical bayesian analysis" and you just might be handed a phd | 15:51 |
| fenn | i would have to do an irrelevant review of the literature first | 15:57 |
| kanzure | don't bother, I've already done that :/ | 16:00 |
| kanzure | does MINION do doubles/floats? | 16:01 |
| kanzure | since when are constraints present in assemblies? | 16:04 |
| kanzure | constraints are mostly for a geometrical definition of an object.. | 16:04 |
| kanzure | of a single object | 16:04 |
| * kanzure is trying to avoid having to write a constraint solver | 16:04 | |
| fenn | eh? | 16:20 |
| fenn | constraints are what make the parts go together | 16:20 |
| fenn | face A must be in contact with face B etc | 16:20 |
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| fenn | should constraints have an order (sequence) or weights? | 16:57 |
| fenn | or if/or/else structure perhaps | 16:58 |
| kanzure | "face A must be in contact with face B" okay? | 17:08 |
| kanzure | sequences are fine | 17:08 |
| kanzure | if you add a collection of parts together and they interfere, then you have an error | 17:08 |
| kanzure | now, that might just be the first options for placement of each part, so try options 1, 1, 2, and then try options 1, 1, 3 | 17:08 |
| kanzure | etc. but it does not require a full-blown constraints engine | 17:08 |
| fenn | i'm thinking weights are the way to go | 17:09 |
| fenn | preferred, important, critical | 17:09 |
| fenn | safety-critical | 17:09 |
| kanzure | sure, different options having different weights, or something | 17:09 |
| kanzure | (you mean weighted-scoring, right?) | 17:10 |
| fenn | we could make the order they're listed affect the order in which things are evaluated perhaps? | 17:10 |
| kanzure | wait, where are these things being listed? | 17:11 |
| fenn | in yaml you have to explicitly put something in a sequence for the order to matter | 17:11 |
| fenn | in package metadata i guess | 17:11 |
| fenn | it's not really metadata (since it's data) | 17:11 |
| kanzure | but if you're making a package there shouldn't be "options" really, you should just say "here is what will work" (and if you're wrong, your packaging skills suck) | 17:11 |
| kanzure | erm | 17:12 |
| fenn | i'm not so sure | 17:12 |
| kanzure | what are we talking about? | 17:12 |
| fenn | i'd like to leave some flexibility | 17:12 |
| kanzure | say that you want to mate partA with partB | 17:12 |
| kanzure | there may be several different options for that mating to occur | 17:13 |
| kanzure | partA might be a peg, and partB has two holes. | 17:13 |
| fenn | like, if your tolerances cause the part mating to fail in a statistically small portion | 17:13 |
| fenn | or, if you dont have a 1k resistor or something | 17:13 |
| kanzure | if you make an skdb package that consists of partA+partB, then you should say "this is the option that I want to use" | 17:13 |
| kanzure | option #1: @ the first hole, option #2: @ the second hole | 17:14 |
| fenn | if it absolutely must go in that hole then mark it as critical | 17:14 |
| kanzure | okay, so here's a scenario where it might be critical | 17:15 |
| kanzure | suppose you do that peg+hole assembly, and now you have a third part | 17:15 |
| kanzure | and this third part has a thingy hanging off that intersects the hole-plate if it's on one side of the hole-plate as opposed to being ok on the other side of the hole-plate | 17:15 |
| kanzure | so that would be a case where options are useful. | 17:15 |
| fenn | i'd argue that there are a lot of options like that | 17:15 |
| kanzure | (we'd detect an interference/collision in the case where the thingy is hanging off and intersecting the hole-plate) | 17:15 |
| fenn | usually arbitrarily selected just to get shit done, but if we left it vague it would allow many more choices to be made down the road | 17:16 |
| fenn | also you can optimize an entire system if you leave it vague | 17:16 |
| kanzure | I can see that as going either way in terms of being good/bad | 17:16 |
| kanzure | lots of options => remember yer computational complexity analyses | 17:17 |
| fenn | then when you solve for all the example cases, there's your standard which you can put a gun to everyone's head and make them follow | 17:17 |
| fenn | sure, within computational feasibility | 17:17 |
| fenn | that's what order of operations is for, i guess | 17:17 |
| kanzure | in terms of collision detection there's no way this is going to tax a GPU unit or something | 17:18 |
| kanzure | games do tons of wacky shit with collision detection and overtaxing the system | 17:18 |
| kanzure | hm. | 17:18 |
| fenn | if option A is failing on an "important" constraint, skip it and move to the next one (but don't discard it entirely) | 17:18 |
| kanzure | right | 17:18 |
| fenn | GPU collision detection is low-rez | 17:19 |
| fenn | i wouldn't trust it | 17:19 |
| kanzure | oh? ok ok, cpu-computed collision detection. | 17:19 |
| fenn | now, GP-GPU stuff might be applicable | 17:19 |
| fenn | that's just massively parallel computation | 17:19 |
| fenn | was reading about larrabie yesterday | 17:20 |
| fenn | seems like it's going to be the future for the next decade or so | 17:20 |
| kanzure | who? | 17:20 |
| * kanzure just finds lots of stuff on linkedin | 17:20 | |
| fenn | intel's GP-GPU | 17:20 |
| kanzure | http://gpgpu.org/ | 17:20 |
| fenn | sorry, larrabee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee_(GPU) | 17:20 |
| kanzure | I thought we already had something like GP-GPU working | 17:20 |
| fenn | it's very limited | 17:21 |
| kanzure | how can it be low-resolution if I'm spawning 100k+ triangle objects | 17:22 |
| kanzure | blah | 17:22 |
| fenn | because it uses 16-bit numbers | 17:22 |
| fenn | i guess | 17:22 |
| fenn | would like to read a nice simple explanation of vectorized computation | 17:24 |
| fenn | i wonder if you could use shedskin to run your python on the GPU with CUDA | 17:29 |
| kanzure | um, so a practical question | 17:29 |
| kanzure | if two surfaces are mating, like a peg in a hole (but the hole has a face at the bottom) | 17:29 |
| kanzure | how do you set that up? would you tell it to make the peg and hole bottom share a face? | 17:30 |
| kanzure | or just set it at some very low resolution pixel-amount away from each other? | 17:30 |
| fenn | tell what? | 17:30 |
| kanzure | what if you were exporting the assembly to a CFD prog? | 17:31 |
| fenn | i have no idea | 17:31 |
| fenn | every time you talk about that my eyes glaze over | 17:31 |
| kanzure | talk about CFD? | 17:31 |
| fenn | yeah | 17:31 |
| kanzure | ok, well, say you were exporting the model to something that needs to know whether there is a closed surface or if there is a gap between the two faces | 17:32 |
| fenn | like as an iges file? | 17:32 |
| kanzure | ok, sure | 17:32 |
| kanzure | I guess it would make more sense to keep things separate | 17:32 |
| kanzure | but to what extent? and how is that determined | 17:32 |
| fenn | usually there is some value called epsilon which defines the numerical resolution | 17:32 |
| kanzure | because truthfully they *are* separate parts | 17:32 |
| kanzure | oh? | 17:32 |
| kanzure | is this a header thingy in iges files? | 17:33 |
| fenn | if it's an interference fit, you can do two things: model the flexing of the part geometry, or make the solids intersect | 17:33 |
| fenn | nothing is ever going to be 'exact' | 17:33 |
| kanzure | in iges, intersecting solids are still separate entities? | 17:33 |
| fenn | iges isn't solids i think.. it's just boundary representation (?) | 17:34 |
| kanzure | ok, so I guess it depends on the export format | 17:34 |
| kanzure | which is something OCC could handle | 17:34 |
| fenn | bleh.. this is low level detail stuff | 17:34 |
| fenn | very format dependent | 17:34 |
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| gene | so what's the status on the fablab fenn? | 19:24 |
| gene | any progress ont he mechmate? | 19:24 |
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| gene__ | fenn fablab status? | 19:58 |
| gene__ | how is the mech mate going? | 19:58 |
| fenn | um, no new progress | 19:58 |
| fenn | i haven't been there for a week; synchronization issues | 19:58 |
| fenn | we are going to start building rooms soon i think | 19:59 |
| fenn | today i found out whatsisname in san antonio finished the cnc router i was helping with | 19:59 |
| fenn | steve langford | 19:59 |
| fenn | but that doesn't really matter i guess | 20:00 |
| kanzure | did you ever go down and check it out? | 20:08 |
| fenn | no i just found out today | 20:08 |
| fenn | i probably wont be driving 2 hours each way just to watch it go | 20:09 |
| kanzure | no, I mean, did you ever go down to check 'it' out? the project | 20:09 |
| fenn | what? | 20:09 |
| kanzure | did anything ever happen with steve | 20:09 |
| fenn | yeah i put his router together and he paid me a bunch of money :) | 20:09 |
| kanzure | so you only now found out that it was put together? | 20:10 |
| fenn | it was 90% done and i thought i fried the main chip somehow (or maybe it was a dud) | 20:10 |
| kanzure | okay | 20:10 |
| fenn | the deskCNC thing | 20:10 |
| fenn | so we were waiting for that to arrive, i got distracted helping les with some metalworking for a few days, then i got on mars time and a couple weeks passed | 20:11 |
| kanzure | gasp my IP address | 20:11 |
| fenn | now i'm on daylight time again so i emailed him saying i could go work on it, he replied that he had finished it | 20:11 |
| fenn | say.. are you in the new apartment? | 20:13 |
| kanzure | “Rate-and depth-dependent nanomechanical behavior of individual living Chinese hamster ovary cells probed by atomic force microscopy.” | 20:15 |
| kanzure | no | 20:15 |
| kanzure | I move in May 10ish. | 20:15 |
| fenn | "poke it with a stick and see what happens"? | 20:16 |
| kanzure | also, we will have to hold monthly meetings to plot to take over the world or something, especially now that I have conquered these 100 square feet and am moving up to 700. | 20:16 |
| * kanzure lives in a hole :( | 20:16 | |
| fenn | i'll have my people talk to your people | 20:16 |
| kanzure | you have people? | 20:16 |
| fenn | well, seven's pretty smart | 20:17 |
| kanzure | huh? | 20:17 |
| fenn | (the bird) | 20:17 |
| fenn | yes, the bird is my secretary | 20:18 |
| fenn | just don't tell all the other CEO's | 20:18 |
| kanzure | bibliography of random stuff I've been reading: http://sata.serveftp.org/~bryan/papers/2009-04-06.bib | 20:19 |
| fenn | i hate how authors only shows their first initial | 20:21 |
| kanzure | kind of makes the name "Y. Li" useless | 20:22 |
| fenn | so that's generated by zotero? | 20:22 |
| kanzure | yes | 20:25 |
| kanzure | http://sata.serveftp.org/~bryan/papers/2009-04-06_2.bib | 20:27 |
| kanzure | now with less hamster bullshit | 20:27 |
| fenn | what's with the hamster cell papers? | 20:29 |
| kanzure | it was for a post to diybio and didn't know it would clutter up my other library folder thingy | 20:30 |
| kanzure | the second link clears it up. | 20:30 |
| kanzure | so it looks like I'm starting to spill over on to other servers | 20:31 |
| kanzure | well this is odd | 20:32 |
| kanzure | Regli replied to me by email | 20:32 |
| kanzure | but in the email he also included campbell | 20:33 |
| kanzure | who I did not originally mention | 20:33 |
| kanzure | was emailing Regli asking for the reeb graph software out of line? | 20:33 |
| fenn | hell no | 20:35 |
| fenn | if an academic publishes a paper about their software they need to share it with other researchers | 20:36 |
| fenn | it's scientific rigor | 20:36 |
| kanzure | but it's kind of like tattle-telling on a student | 20:36 |
| kanzure | "haha! your student emailed me!" | 20:36 |
| kanzure | (he doesn't actually say that) | 20:36 |
| kanzure | (he just says provisional patent, blah blah blah) | 20:36 |
| fenn | provisional patent? | 20:36 |
| kanzure | on the shape similarity stuff | 20:36 |
| kanzure | yes | 20:37 |
| kanzure | and that's why he can't share the code | 20:37 |
| fenn | well, that's FUCKING BULLSHIT | 20:37 |
| kanzure | yep. | 20:37 |
| fenn | if you want to keep secrets, don't publish papers about them | 20:38 |
| gene__ | so the router works | 20:39 |
| gene__ | does it? | 20:39 |
| fenn | so i hear | 20:40 |
| fenn | he's going to send some video | 20:40 |
| gene__ | is it in the lab? | 20:40 |
| fenn | no, it's a sign making shop in san antonio | 20:40 |
| fenn | not a community project | 20:40 |
| gene__ | so it's not going to go to the fablab? | 20:41 |
| fenn | no | 20:41 |
| gene__ | so the fablab doesn't have a CNC machine | 20:41 |
| fenn | yep | 20:41 |
| fenn | and you don't have a reprap | 20:41 |
| gene__ | indeed I do not | 20:42 |
| fenn | you know, i bet my reprap will be finished before yours | 20:42 |
| gene__ | the stratasys is still in operable | 20:42 |
| gene__ | not if I print it on the SLS machines | 20:42 |
| fenn | for a while there i was panicked because i thought you had a working CNC machine | 20:42 |
| fenn | but it was that other gene, the submarine propeller guy | 20:42 |
| gene__ | Submarine propellor guy? | 20:43 |
| fenn | some comment on slashdot | 20:43 |
| kanzure | gene__: there's a guy that comes in here when you're gone | 20:43 |
| kanzure | since you steal his username | 20:43 |
| fenn | heh | 20:43 |
| gene__ | oh shoot | 20:43 |
| kanzure | but we can never really tell when it's you or him | 20:43 |
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| genehacker | I have a doppelganger? | 20:43 |
| fenn | looks like you're still logged in from utexas | 20:43 |
| kanzure | there's a nickserv command to kill a doppleganger | 20:44 |
| genehacker | ok | 20:44 |
| fenn | the other guy is registered with nickserv i think | 20:44 |
| genehacker | well he seems like a pretty nice guy | 20:44 |
| fenn | yeah he sure talks a lot.. | 20:44 |
| fenn | that whowas thing is annoying | 20:45 |
| fenn | if i wanted whowas i'd type /whowas | 20:45 |
| genehacker | so what is his relation to submarine propellors? | 20:45 |
| * fenn shrugs | 20:46 | |
| fenn | i think he was a sonar operator during the cold war | 20:46 |
| genehacker | and what can we do to get us a CNC machine? | 20:47 |
| kanzure | "any missiles yet?" | 20:47 |
| kanzure | "nope, still cold" | 20:47 |
| kanzure | *yawn* | 20:47 |
| fenn | and was whining on slashdot about how the (koreans? japanese?) "accidentally" exported six axis CNC milling machines to soviet russia | 20:47 |
| kanzure | oh, that post | 20:47 |
| kanzure | yes, I remember it | 20:47 |
| fenn | and suddenly all the subs got quieter | 20:47 |
| genehacker | hey I got some papers on fluidic missile guidance system if you want them | 20:47 |
| genehacker | oh yeah that guy | 20:47 |
| fenn | so, that's the other gene | 20:48 |
| genehacker | so we need some sort of automatic fabricator to truly be a fablab | 20:49 |
| genehacker | how can we get one? | 20:49 |
| genehacker | I could see if I could print of 2 sets of reprap parts... | 20:50 |
| kanzure | genehacker: hey, you know you'd need 225 m^2 of the spiral filter design in order to process 1 L/sec | 20:50 |
| kanzure | why did we make the spiral? | 20:50 |
| genehacker | to see if it works | 20:50 |
| kanzure | but you know it doesn't | 20:51 |
| genehacker | that's why | 20:51 |
| genehacker | I don't know if does | 20:51 |
| kanzure | there's nothing in the literature that indicates scaling it up past laminar flows would be a good idea | 20:51 |
| genehacker | huh? | 20:51 |
| genehacker | what do you mean | 20:51 |
| kanzure | I mean that everything that has used it is something like 4 microliters/sec | 20:51 |
| fenn | you know what a laminar flow is, right? | 20:51 |
| genehacker | yes | 20:51 |
| fenn | and water in a 1cm wide channel won't be laminar flow | 20:52 |
| genehacker | what about the parc paper? | 20:52 |
| genehacker | they used something similar to this | 20:53 |
| kanzure | 92 mm/sec | 20:53 |
| genehacker | damn I want to take fluids in the summer | 20:53 |
| genehacker | really? | 20:53 |
| kanzure | no, wrong paper, sorry | 20:53 |
| genehacker | parc paper as in the original paper I showed you guys | 20:54 |
| kanzure | yeah, so the parc paper is the one where they were using a 10 mm by 10 mm design | 20:54 |
| genehacker | why won't they let me take fluids in the summer? | 20:54 |
| kanzure | 300 micrometer wide channels. | 20:54 |
| genehacker | no they used a bigger one | 20:54 |
| genehacker | anyway I need to design another filter design to test | 20:55 |
| genehacker | and also, look up the meaning of the word experiment | 20:55 |
| genehacker | bye | 20:55 |
| kanzure | look up the meaning of the word 'hypothesis' | 20:55 |
| fenn | you could reproduce these methods and adapt them for the application you have in mind, but then our university's attack dogs will sue you silly | 21:01 |
| kanzure | release the hounds! | 21:08 |
| fenn | hm another day and i still havent put in any catalog orders.. | 21:08 |
| kanzure | to mouser? | 21:08 |
| kanzure | erm, catalog-people | 21:08 |
| fenn | allelectronics, dealextreme | 21:08 |
| fenn | will be ordering from arrow and questcomp as soon as i figure out wtf i am doing | 21:09 |
| fenn | oh and enco | 21:09 |
| fenn | important that, since les has no raw materials and lowes wants to rape me | 21:10 |
| fenn | $15 for two feet of grid beam | 21:10 |
| fenn | i'd say everything in that store is about 2x the enco price | 21:10 |
| fenn | no, worse than that | 21:10 |
| kanzure | "Do you know of an adjective for a creature which is an emergent property of an extremely sophisticated computer network?" | 22:04 |
| kanzure | digimon? emergicon? ghost from a shell? | 22:05 |
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| wrldpc | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime | 22:40 |
| ybit | yup | 22:50 |
| ybit | i saw that sometime last year | 22:50 |
| ybit | has some good ideas, but you take it too far | 22:50 |
| ybit | for instance at one point i was coupling it with p-prime and some other rules | 22:52 |
| ybit | russian is similar to e-prime | 22:54 |
| ybit | or was it p-prime. i dunno. time for bed | 22:54 |
| ybit | gn | 22:54 |
| kanzure | haha, here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0R9QtAEiQ4 | 22:55 |
| kanzure | tetris brought to life. | 22:55 |
| kanzure | the last two seconds are hillarious | 22:56 |
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