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| kanzure | http://www.pearlbiotech.com/ | 11:36 |
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| kanzure | it looks like tito went off and started a company about his gel box | 12:01 |
| kanzure | which is interesting because it explains why we haven't seen the schematics from him on the project | 12:02 |
| kanzure | conflict of interest. | 12:02 |
| kanzure | look how quickly people are to rush into commercialization of diybio without even having anything in the first place | 12:02 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Thinksize | 12:11 |
| UtopiahGHML | "exoskeleton for thinking" makes me think of William Ross Ashby's "intelligence amplification" | 12:16 |
| UtopiahGHML | I personaly like thinking about affordances and the set of tools I can use as a kind of "cognitive swarm", kind of distributed intelligence or things like http://springerlink.com/content/w5656m501r410g26/ http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Philosophy/Mind/?view=usa&sf=toc&ci=9780195333213 | 12:18 |
| UtopiahGHML | (Clark also developped the idea of cognitive scaffolding) | 12:20 |
| kanzure | I don't know if an "exoskeleton for thinking" equates to the "cognitive swarm" that you've made wiht your web 2.0 apps | 12:26 |
| kanzure | it's certainly a way to leave cookie crumbs | 12:26 |
| kanzure | but that's not the same thing | 12:26 |
| fenn | lol $160 for a vaporware gelbox | 12:31 |
| kanzure | I sent an email to diybio about it | 12:36 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/16b83eb1d0a0e46f | 12:37 |
| kanzure | woot, "Talairach coordinates". best thing ever! | 12:49 |
| kanzure | "e Talairach coordinate system of the human brain, which is used to describe the location of brain structures independent from individual differences in the size and overall shape of the brain." | 12:50 |
| kanzure | http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=Talairach+coordinates+brain+regions+dataset&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 | 12:51 |
| fenn | this is interesting in that it's so god damn unorganized http://openeverything.us/ | 12:51 |
| kanzure | I think I'm going to become RMS' successor and start ranting about how you should all be careful about using the 'open' buzzword (an open buzzword) | 12:54 |
| kanzure | is the protocol creation wizard the same thing as an skdb package-maker-assistant wizard? the "how to build it" serializer works the same way for both, but (semantically) I don't know if that makes sense for the protocol one. For instance, consider PCR. You're not asking "how to build PCR"- you're asking how to build copies of the DNA. that's not a "package". | 13:02 |
| kanzure | oh, I guess the package is the "PCR machine black box" (or at least the steps that such a machine would carry out) | 13:03 |
| kanzure | nevermind | 13:03 |
| fenn | protocol would be a instructions that go to a machine or human | 13:07 |
| fenn | black box in this case is the lab | 13:08 |
| fenn | or all the individual things in a lab | 13:08 |
| kanzure | I don't think that solves it. if the "protocol" is the instructions that go to the human- or to the machine- to perform PCR, then what is the package that had those instructions attached to it? | 13:09 |
| kanzure | is the package a 'PCR black box machine'? | 13:09 |
| fenn | lab | 13:09 |
| kanzure | no | 13:10 |
| fenn | why not | 13:10 |
| kanzure | "earth" | 13:10 |
| kanzure | agx-get install earth | 13:10 |
| kanzure | maybe I just don't understand | 13:10 |
| kanzure | why lab? | 13:10 |
| fenn | any random place on earth isnt guaranteed to have a scale, beakers, chemicals, pcr machine, etc | 13:10 |
| kanzure | I was expecting an skdb package would be a 'machine' or 'unit process' | 13:10 |
| kanzure | PCR is a unit process.. | 13:10 |
| kanzure | lab is not | 13:10 |
| fenn | there's a minimal set of things you can expect to find in a biology lab | 13:11 |
| kanzure | generic lab would be a package, but it would have sub packages | 13:11 |
| kanzure | one sub package would be a computer | 13:11 |
| fenn | yes of course | 13:11 |
| kanzure | another would be "PCR machine" ?? | 13:11 |
| kanzure | even though PCR isn't done in a single machine | 13:11 |
| kanzure | (although it could be) | 13:12 |
| fenn | pcr is only one step in the protocol | 13:12 |
| fenn | do_pcr(with these parameters) | 13:12 |
| kanzure | seems like this is the same problem of wondering about "how to build the machine" versus "instructions on how one would use it" | 13:13 |
| kanzure | erm, that's a bad way to put it | 13:13 |
| kanzure | because instructions on how to use something, etc., would be involved in the "build instructions" | 13:14 |
| kanzure | otherwise how would you know how to build it? :p | 13:14 |
| fenn | false | 13:15 |
| kanzure | hm? | 13:15 |
| fenn | you use other machines to build the machine (unless it's a gingery lathe) | 13:15 |
| fenn | well, even then | 13:15 |
| fenn | only replicators build themselves | 13:15 |
| fenn | what's the problem? | 13:16 |
| kanzure | the "function" of this PCR machine is to carry out PCR; the 'build instructions' would tell you how to use the other tools to make this PCR machine; | 13:17 |
| kanzure | oh | 13:17 |
| kanzure | I see now | 13:17 |
| kanzure | I think the problem is that I don't know how to represent a "stopper" or "terminator" | 13:17 |
| fenn | you have to take the usage scenario into consideration when designing the machine, but not when building it | 13:17 |
| kanzure | say that you want to do what a "PCR machine" would do | 13:17 |
| kanzure | you could either use other tools to build the machine, or you could use your hands to build it / carry it out | 13:17 |
| kanzure | erm. that's two problems. How do you know if the instructions are "how to build it" versus "how to carry out PCR"? | 13:18 |
| kanzure | a "DNA amplification machine" carries out the PCR protocol- building the "DNA amplification machine" does not equate to the protocol instructions on PCR | 13:18 |
| fenn | 'how to carry out PCR' is a process | 13:19 |
| fenn | 'how to build it' is a process that results in a PCR machine | 13:19 |
| fenn | the PCR process functionality is provided by the PCR machine (and by hand dipping in water baths) | 13:20 |
| fenn | and taq polymerase and nucleotides and primers | 13:20 |
| fenn | or maybe i should say: the function of DNA amplification is provided by the PCR process | 13:21 |
| kanzure | so there are some sequence of events that make up "PCR" which are "solved by" a package (the PCR machine); an instantiation of the PCR machine can be created by following the build instructions | 13:22 |
| kanzure | another way to "solve" the sequence of events in PCR is via a protocol output (that a human would read) | 13:23 |
| fenn | i dont know why you're saying "solve", the machine "does" something | 13:23 |
| kanzure | right, those "sequences" are "done by this machine" | 13:23 |
| fenn | woo | 13:24 |
| kanzure | whereas with hand tools, "that sequence is done by these hand tools" | 13:24 |
| fenn | right | 13:24 |
| fenn | sequence = process, more or less | 13:24 |
| fenn | process is what happens to the stuff; sequence is what you do to the stuff to make the process happen | 13:24 |
| kanzure | so | 13:26 |
| kanzure | um | 13:26 |
| * fenn writes this down somewhere | 13:27 | |
| kanzure | pcr.skdb is the "PCR machine"- it contains the instructions to build/assemble the machine, which implements PCR. But you don't necessarily have the tools to build/assemble the machine (let's imagine it involves a 6-axis CNC machine, and you don't have that); instead of building the machine, you want SKDB-software to spit out instructions on how to perform PCR with hand tools. | 13:29 |
| fenn | call it 'thermocycler' for less confusion | 13:29 |
| kanzure | some set of hand tools, in some sequence of events, do indeed perform PCR | 13:29 |
| fenn | i hate to break it to you but humans are machines | 13:30 |
| kanzure | that's right | 13:30 |
| kanzure | that's why I said something about "terminators" or "stoppers" | 13:30 |
| fenn | stopping what? | 13:30 |
| fenn | graph traversal? | 13:31 |
| kanzure | trying to make a tool to make a tool to make a tool; whereas at level=1 deep you really could have just used a human hand | 13:31 |
| kanzure | but I don't care about that- that's an easier problem- | 13:31 |
| kanzure | I'm preoccupied with wondering how to use pcr.skdb to generate instructions to perform PCR | 13:31 |
| kanzure | versus instructions to build the PCR machine. | 13:31 |
| kanzure | (the PCR machine implements the PCR process; so, hand-tools would have to 'implement' the PCR process as well) | 13:32 |
| kanzure | but I'm having some trouble thinking of how those two sets of instructions are distinguished, or something | 13:32 |
| kanzure | oh, maybe I'm assuming too much | 13:34 |
| kanzure | what "PCR machine"? (I don't mean just a thermocycler) | 13:34 |
| fenn | no sense in defining it | 13:34 |
| fenn | it's trivial; PCR machine is a machine that carries out the PCR process | 13:34 |
| kanzure | "converts mechanical energy to electrical energy" | 13:35 |
| kanzure | that's a simple 'function structure graph' of sorts | 13:35 |
| fenn | dunno what you're on about | 13:35 |
| kanzure | and different components can 'solve' or 'implement' it, i.e. make it a reality | 13:35 |
| kanzure | bleh | 13:35 |
| fenn | PCR machine doesn't convert anything to anything | 13:35 |
| kanzure | there's a difference between asking the skdb package how to build it (the pcr machine) versus how to carry out what the machine does | 13:35 |
| fenn | except perhaps as a requirement of changing the temperature | 13:36 |
| fenn | look, different thermocyclers will have different programming interfaces | 13:37 |
| kanzure | two solutions on "how to implement the PCR process" would pop out from SKDB (tentatively): (1) a sequence of hand tool manipulations; (2) an assembly of other parts that make up that "PCR machine". | 13:37 |
| fenn | a human doing a waterbath protocol is a thermocycling machine, get over it | 13:37 |
| kanzure | but "how to build the machine" is not the same type of information of "how to perform PCR" | 13:37 |
| kanzure | oh, I agree that it's true | 13:37 |
| kanzure | I just don't know how to represent that | 13:37 |
| fenn | build a thermocycling machine by adding a human, a lab, some water baths, tubes, etc | 13:38 |
| kanzure | that machine needs instructions though | 13:38 |
| fenn | now your scratch-build thermocycling machine is ready to rumble! | 13:38 |
| fenn | then you follow the human thermocycler protocol | 13:38 |
| kanzure | where the hell did that come from? | 13:38 |
| fenn | it's written in pcr.xml | 13:39 |
| fenn | or generated by that haskell script from yesterday | 13:39 |
| kanzure | my point though is that they are the same things | 13:39 |
| kanzure | erm | 13:39 |
| fenn | if there's no info on how to do it in the database, skdb can't help you | 13:39 |
| kanzure | a human machine versus a pcr machine of other components, those are the same things | 13:40 |
| fenn | you can't just say 'amplify me somem DNA' and expect SKDB to magically know how | 13:40 |
| kanzure | no, of course not | 13:40 |
| fenn | yes, the process is the same, but the sequence of instructions is different | 13:40 |
| kanzure | but PCR is ultimately just a collection of parameters to different machines, involving only (1) volumes and (2) temperatures | 13:41 |
| fenn | this is the reality of CAM | 13:41 |
| kanzure | in one case, the machine is a PCR machine; in the other, it's a human | 13:41 |
| fenn | different machines require different instructions | 13:41 |
| kanzure | and a human can do a lot of stuff, so it's nice and all | 13:41 |
| fenn | too expensive for my taste | 13:41 |
| fenn | and error prone | 13:42 |
| kanzure | the original idea was that if you had something like origami_machine.skdb, you could either build the origami machine and fold origami crease patterns, or give humans instructions on how to fold the crease patterns (CAM that both humans and the machine could read) | 13:42 |
| fenn | btw it's a human + waterbaths + tubes n stuff | 13:42 |
| fenn | ok, but if there's no CAM software available your only choice is to write instructions by hand | 13:43 |
| kanzure | in the case of the virtual character animation videos, the CAM commands that a human would get for the PCR protocol (or whatever), would be carried out via trajectories and the 3D char | 13:44 |
| kanzure | the point was that there was supposed to be some way that you could say "well, thanks for the build instructions, but I don't have $expensive_machine, and apparently I can implement that same functionality by doing it through this different set of tools" | 13:47 |
| kanzure | the build instructions being abstracted. and implementations/solutions consisting of different sets of machines/tools. | 13:48 |
| fenn | yes but that's not always the case | 13:48 |
| fenn | you can't forge steel without a hammer | 13:48 |
| fenn | you can't compile matter without a matter compiler.. | 13:49 |
| fenn | it's easier for people to think in terms of sequences of instructions than build processes | 13:49 |
| fenn | because we're hard wired for that | 13:49 |
| fenn | so i think it'd be worth thinking about how to reverse engineer instruction sequences into the processes that happen to materials, energy, information | 13:50 |
| kanzure | so one particular process is where you lift up water 8 ft into the air, and then drop it; there is one machine that implements this (inputs: 20 gallons of water, electrical energy), various components and gears and lifting apparatus and ropes and other parts like that are involved | 13:53 |
| kanzure | now, a human could perform the same task | 13:53 |
| kanzure | with a ladder and a bucket | 13:53 |
| fenn | yes, but would it be art? | 13:54 |
| kanzure | assembly instructions are not execution instructions | 13:55 |
| kanzure | and yet shouldn't they be? | 13:55 |
| fenn | yes they are | 13:55 |
| kanzure | I know you said that the execution instructions would be given by pcr.xml | 13:55 |
| fenn | erf | 13:56 |
| kanzure | but that's in terms of actions, whereas the "PCR machine" is in terms of different volumes passing from interface to interface between its parts | 13:56 |
| fenn | you're playing games with me | 13:56 |
| fenn | the assembly process is carried out by executing assembly instructions | 13:56 |
| kanzure | ok | 13:56 |
| kanzure | but "execution instructions" are like human-readable PCR protocol thingy | 13:57 |
| kanzure | and yet that's not the same thing as assembling a PCR machine | 13:57 |
| fenn | no, they aren't even instructions for the same process | 13:57 |
| fenn | one process amplifies DNA, the other builds a PCR machine | 13:57 |
| kanzure | but the PCR machine is an implementation of a process that amplifies DNA | 13:58 |
| fenn | NO | 13:58 |
| fenn | the machine is a machine, not a process! | 13:58 |
| kanzure | it implements a process | 13:59 |
| fenn | a process is what happens to matter/energy/information to result in a new state | 13:59 |
| fenn | i dont know wtf "implements" is supposed to me | 13:59 |
| fenn | mean | 13:59 |
| fenn | ok let's say the pcr machine is totally self contained, no input parameters or anything | 14:01 |
| fenn | then the instructions are encoded into its design | 14:01 |
| fenn | the same way you can make a mechanical computer | 14:01 |
| kanzure | the machine executes the CAM instructions or is equivalent to executing the CAM instructions. that's "implements". | 14:01 |
| kanzure | CAM instructions represent a process | 14:02 |
| fenn | no, they represent a sequence of actions | 14:02 |
| fenn | or a sequence of processes if you want | 14:02 |
| fenn | if it's only one instruction, fine, that's a process | 14:02 |
| fenn | there comes a point when the complexity of the process is too much for our database to model in one step, and it has to be broken down into a sequence | 14:03 |
| fenn | because i'm sure as hell not writing a new class for every set of build instructions | 14:04 |
| fenn | the thing is, cam instructions are not only information, they're also energy which results in things actually happening | 14:05 |
| fenn | (under certain circumstances) | 14:05 |
| fenn | so in addition to representing things, they are actions which cause the things represented to happen | 14:06 |
| fenn | doesn't this seem overly philosophical to you? | 14:07 |
| fenn | i feel like korzybski is going to come out of the wall and bludgeon me with a dictionary | 14:08 |
| kanzure | my point is that pcr.skdb has assembly/build instructions (CAM) ( a sequence of processes, if you want ) that make the PCR machine. that PCR machine is made up of components passing volumes of stuff between one another (oh, and temperatures). other components, that satisfy the same constraints, could be assembled and interchanged (theoretically, if they are available etc.) the same sequence of passing volumes and such between one another- that can be "implemented" by a human with tubs and such | 14:08 |
| fenn | that can be ... | 14:08 |
| kanzure | I don't know where my cutoff is, but the end was "that can be 'implemented' by a human with tubes and such" | 14:09 |
| fenn | ok, where 'constraints' is the PCR process | 14:10 |
| * kanzure nods | 14:10 | |
| fenn | 'implemented' is a buzzword | 14:11 |
| kanzure | the machine executes the CAM instructions or is equivalent to executing the CAM instructions. that's "implements". | 14:11 |
| kanzure | (in this case, the human machine) | 14:12 |
| kanzure | oh | 14:14 |
| kanzure | so if the PCR process is a set of constraints on states or pre/post-conditions after each action that is taken (expressed in the CAM, etc.) | 14:14 |
| kanzure | then that might make it easier? | 14:14 |
| fenn | easier than what? | 14:15 |
| kanzure | I mean to say, "then it would be possible to find equivalencies between a collection of parts passing volumes and temperatures around (etc.) and other parts or other tools (like a human) doing the same thing, satisfying the same constraints" | 14:16 |
| fenn | i had always intended to include tolerances along with the ideal values | 14:16 |
| fenn | that'd be a hell of a constraints engine | 14:17 |
| kanzure | for PCR, honestly the constraints aren't too rough | 14:18 |
| fenn | wolfram's schtick was that it was much easier to create simple systems than to solve for constraints | 14:18 |
| kanzure | hell, you have people bobbing tubes in tubs of hot water | 14:18 |
| kanzure | how constrained could that be? heh' | 14:19 |
| fenn | it doesn't matter what the margin is | 14:19 |
| fenn | it's that there's a constraint at all | 14:19 |
| fenn | you know the line about the singing bear | 14:20 |
| kanzure | no | 14:20 |
| fenn | er, frog | 14:20 |
| kanzure | no | 14:20 |
| kanzure | these constraints aren't the same type of constraints that you are used to though | 14:20 |
| kanzure | I mean, it's much simpler. | 14:20 |
| fenn | it doesn't matter that he sings poorly, what's amazing is that he sings at all | 14:20 |
| fenn | what do you mean, not the same? | 14:21 |
| kanzure | PCR is a sequence of constraints like "within this temperature for this period of time with this much volume of xyz" | 14:21 |
| fenn | it's a range of physical quantities | 14:21 |
| kanzure | yeah | 14:21 |
| fenn | so? | 14:21 |
| kanzure | so find something that has interfaces of those types of physical quantities in the database | 14:21 |
| fenn | yeah that's the hard part | 14:21 |
| kanzure | in this case we'd have some tubes, tubs, a thermocycler with little slots for liquid volumes | 14:21 |
| kanzure | nope, the interfaces are explicitly listed | 14:21 |
| kanzure | remember? | 14:21 |
| kanzure | "tagged" | 14:22 |
| fenn | hmm | 14:22 |
| fenn | if you have a pcr machine already tagged then it's easy | 14:22 |
| kanzure | true that. | 14:22 |
| fenn | trivial | 14:22 |
| kanzure | but let's say that you didn't have a pcr machine in the db | 14:22 |
| kanzure | but you had a number of tubes, tubs, etc. | 14:22 |
| kanzure | the tub can hold 20 gallons of water | 14:22 |
| fenn | say you have some heating element, some laws of physics that tell you about heat conduction and heat capacity vs temperature and energy input | 14:22 |
| fenn | and a positioner | 14:22 |
| kanzure | the human satisfies the positioner | 14:23 |
| kanzure | the human is a magical element in all of this sort of :-/ but whatever | 14:23 |
| fenn | but have you encoded the parameters of the human into the database yet? | 14:23 |
| kanzure | a kind of "well, we don't have anything that does that, maybe we can say a human does it" | 14:23 |
| kanzure | yeah yeah shut up :p | 14:23 |
| fenn | 'tagged' the human so to speak | 14:23 |
| fenn | it's a big problem | 14:23 |
| kanzure | sshhh. | 14:23 |
| kanzure | I don't want to have to do a model of the range of possible motions of humans (quite yet) | 14:23 |
| fenn | modeling a human will take lots of time and effort and probably real experimentation | 14:23 |
| kanzure | right, in the mean time we have a 'doll model' | 14:24 |
| fenn | forget about the human | 14:24 |
| kanzure | or we kind of assume the human can do it (otherwise, the package creation wizard would have complained there's no way to do something) | 14:24 |
| fenn | you have a robot, with 20mm/s positioning in x/y/z with 2mm/s^2 accel and a 5kg payload | 14:24 |
| kanzure | heh | 14:24 |
| fenn | the gripper looks like this: (cad file) | 14:24 |
| fenn | now what | 14:25 |
| kanzure | it has xyz surfaces for gripping: <tags> <data> | 14:25 |
| kanzure | erm, s/xyz/these/ | 14:25 |
| kanzure | well | 14:25 |
| kanzure | um. | 14:26 |
| kanzure | what are you asking? | 14:26 |
| kanzure | why is that in the database? | 14:26 |
| fenn | there's this jumble of mathematical equivalence laws, simple machines (a resistor, positioner), and a process defined as a set of constraints | 14:26 |
| kanzure | I mean, are we doing PCR? | 14:26 |
| fenn | yes | 14:26 |
| kanzure | ok, so there's no human? | 14:26 |
| fenn | no, the human just causes trouble because it's "magic" | 14:27 |
| fenn | you're permitted to use the human for assembly of the pcr machine | 14:27 |
| kanzure | but not for the execution of PCR? | 14:27 |
| fenn | no | 14:27 |
| kanzure | wah. | 14:27 |
| kanzure | ok so it's conceivable to imagine some collection of parts that are capable of transferring volumes between each other | 14:28 |
| kanzure | a piping system maybe | 14:28 |
| kanzure | but you want me to use the gripper somehow, for some reason | 14:28 |
| fenn | it's just there, you dont have to use it | 14:28 |
| fenn | likewise for the piping system | 14:29 |
| kanzure | the majority of actions that have to be performed in a biology lab bench protocol are trivial: usually it's just move different pipettes to different places | 14:29 |
| kanzure | heh while thinking of how to check whether or not the constraints are satisfied with a database of tubes, tubs, and a positioner, | 14:31 |
| kanzure | I started thinking "gee, skdb would be nice for this" | 14:31 |
| kanzure | oh wait. :( | 14:31 |
| fenn | ok what is your desired interface | 14:31 |
| fenn | to check whether the constraints are satisfied | 14:32 |
| kanzure | I have selected a group of parts from the database | 14:32 |
| kanzure | or a program has returned a list of parts for me | 14:32 |
| fenn | how did you select them? randomly? | 14:32 |
| kanzure | they each have interfaces that accept the physical quantities that have to be strummed together for the PCR protocol | 14:32 |
| fenn | ok so now you have 9 million results from your query | 14:32 |
| kanzure | well, select one of each type | 14:33 |
| fenn | sorry, "over 9 thousand" | 14:33 |
| kanzure | also, it's legit if there's a saved set that somebody else has attached to the skdb file | 14:33 |
| fenn | ok, a helium tank, a celeron processor, and an apache helicopter landing strut have been returned from your query | 14:33 |
| kanzure | and let's assume that you happen to have all of those, in that set that was previously found | 14:33 |
| kanzure | why? | 14:34 |
| kanzure | does a celeron processor have the capacity to hold 20 microL of liquid? | 14:34 |
| fenn | because the tank has the right volume, the processor the right wattage, and the landing strut the right inner diameter | 14:34 |
| kanzure | remember, this was constrained by the PCR process | 14:34 |
| kanzure | oh, I guess the processor could be used as a heating element | 14:34 |
| kanzure | badass | 14:34 |
| kanzure | but let's say that somebody already attached a set of equipment parts that he feels are useful | 14:35 |
| kanzure | and they happen to be the vials and tubs scenario | 14:35 |
| kanzure | :p | 14:35 |
| kanzure | because people (who make skdb packages) happen to not be idiots | 14:35 |
| fenn | ok fine, a tub, an eppendorf tube, and an aquarium heater | 14:35 |
| kanzure | and a human? or a positioner? | 14:35 |
| kanzure | how exactly were state transitions satisfied by those parts? | 14:36 |
| fenn | and a reprap stage | 14:36 |
| kanzure | stage = xyz positioner? | 14:36 |
| fenn | ya | 14:36 |
| kanzure | oh right, as in 'microscope slide stage' | 14:36 |
| fenn | well, the parts don't actually satisfy the constraints, that's the point | 14:36 |
| fenn | you have to use some mathematical mojo to figure out how to solve the constraints, given physical laws and available quantities like wattage and heat capacity | 14:37 |
| fenn | that's the part i'm stuck on | 14:37 |
| fenn | well, not really stuck on, it's your problem | 14:37 |
| fenn | sort of a reverse engineering project | 14:38 |
| fenn | i'd just write the protocol and get it over with | 14:38 |
| fenn | you know, ants will never build a bridge, even if you give them all the materials they need | 14:39 |
| kanzure | have you ever seen an ant bridge? | 14:39 |
| kanzure | it's quite impressive | 14:39 |
| fenn | it's made of ants | 14:39 |
| kanzure | so? | 14:39 |
| fenn | um, there are limitations to ant construction methodology | 14:39 |
| kanzure | oh :( | 14:39 |
| fenn | heh. "ANTS is an "autonomous nano technology swarm" developed by NASA for possible use in the "lunar base infrastructure" of tomorrow. | 14:41 |
| fenn | ANTS consist of "highly reconfigurable networks of struts, acting as 3D mesh or 2D fabric to perform a range of functions on demand." | 14:41 |
| kanzure | positional/movement-constraints suck. | 14:41 |
| kanzure | a system of pipes and tubes is easier | 14:42 |
| fenn | ok pipes and tubes then | 14:43 |
| fenn | how does your automatic solver figure out that pipes are better | 14:43 |
| kanzure | then you just ask skdb to bring up thingies that can fit together nad have physical quantities | 14:43 |
| kanzure | oh, well, it doesn't | 14:43 |
| fenn | actually i dont care about better | 14:44 |
| fenn | i just want to know how it knows that it will work at all | 14:44 |
| kanzure | if the constraints are satisfied, then there you go. | 14:44 |
| fenn | but you'd have to go through a near infinite number of combinations before you happen on a system that works | 14:45 |
| kanzure | I think that might be okay because you can constrain the set of possible components to select from / check with | 14:46 |
| kanzure | you would constrain it to those components/parts that you have in your inventory, no? | 14:46 |
| kanzure | or something that you could make in a reasonable amount of time | 14:46 |
| fenn | i dont believe it, but since there's no way to know, i guess we'll just agree to disagree | 14:46 |
| kanzure | and besides, what's more important is that you have a way for the wizard to tell a person whether or not what they are encoding is impossible | 14:47 |
| kanzure | I think that, like with CAD constraints on weird geometries, super constraint problems should be left to external super constraint solvers; just like FEM/FEA. | 14:47 |
| kanzure | ok I've dug myself into a hole | 14:48 |
| kanzure | wtf am I am on about? | 14:48 |
| fenn | trying to create a system from components | 14:49 |
| fenn | given the end result and the components | 14:49 |
| fenn | hey i have a solution | 14:49 |
| kanzure | so why did you disallow my use of a human? | 14:49 |
| fenn | we'll just farm it out to unwitting humans on the intarweb in the form of addictive flash puzzle games | 14:50 |
| kanzure | I think that it would be somewhat reasonable for some constraints to be satisfied by the Magical Human | 14:50 |
| kanzure | for instance, moving pipettes around | 14:51 |
| fenn | after all "80% of innovation is provided by users" right? :P | 14:51 |
| kanzure | the "PCR machine" though would have something else entirely- whatever the designer came up with in all of its brilliance | 14:51 |
| kanzure | the wizard would have to just make sure that what the human is doing isn't going to be impossible, so there will be some constraints on what you're allowed to offload to the Magical Human | 14:52 |
| fenn | i dont like including the human because it causes problems that are not relevant to building a system (problems are related to modeling existing artifacts) | 14:52 |
| fenn | i mean we know already that it can be done with a robot, so why complicate the problem unnecessarily | 14:52 |
| kanzure | I know we can spit out instructions telling the human what to do- we could even spit out standard instructions telling a lab bot what to do with different vials and tubes and jars | 14:53 |
| kanzure | but what I don't know how to do is encode "motional performance requirements" with PCR or something | 14:54 |
| kanzure | "you must be able to stretch this far with this many fingers" heh' (they *never* say that in those crafts packets where you have to become a super-person to put something together) | 14:54 |
| fenn | laws of motion | 14:54 |
| fenn | allows you to transform acceleration into velocity and from there to position and time | 14:55 |
| fenn | pcr doesn't involve lots of complicated forces and vectors | 14:55 |
| kanzure | ok. I can see that. | 14:55 |
| fenn | the motion is really only doing temperature regulation | 14:56 |
| kanzure | wait, what? | 14:56 |
| kanzure | dumping ice or something? | 14:56 |
| kanzure | I thought it was moving vials around to another location | 14:56 |
| fenn | i'm just thinking of a robot moving one tube back and forth | 14:56 |
| kanzure | yeah ok | 14:56 |
| kanzure | so why not say that a human can satisfy that constraint too? say that a human has about "these degrees of freedom, and this range of force vectors, being safe assumptions" - and something that a handicapped person would be able to do or something heh' | 14:57 |
| fenn | because the problem isn't about what the human can do | 14:57 |
| kanzure | haha. "welcome to skdb9000. please enter your strength in Newtons" | 14:57 |
| fenn | it's about linking up already entered metadata | 14:57 |
| kanzure | it is if they want to know how to do something without building more tools | 14:57 |
| kanzure | right | 14:57 |
| fenn | i'm sure there will be all sorts of wizards for modeling your own capabilities | 14:58 |
| fenn | and most people won't use them at all | 14:58 |
| kanzure | that's why I said a 'doll model' would be ok | 14:58 |
| kanzure | I mean, at the very least, there are some basic assumptions we can make about their ability to bootstrap | 14:59 |
| fenn | 1) they can read | 14:59 |
| fenn | 2) they have a computer | 14:59 |
| fenn | um. what else? | 14:59 |
| kanzure | and thou shalt read and then implement by the divine grace of yer eyes moving across the magical pages! | 14:59 |
| kanzure | they have an inventory, and supposedly can assemble some things from it | 14:59 |
| kanzure | i.e., we're going to have to be able to assume that they can do *some* things | 14:59 |
| fenn | oo lots of assumptions | 14:59 |
| fenn | what if they are prisoners of war | 15:00 |
| kanzure | so they have an inventory of like, a pair of underwair and a bible? | 15:00 |
| fenn | and a paperclip | 15:00 |
| kanzure | damn it man, I'm not MacGuyver! | 15:00 |
| kanzure | hehe, but why did you ask that? | 15:01 |
| kanzure | gasp, I misspelled his name!. MacGyver. | 15:01 |
| fenn | one of the dave gingery-related legends is about prisoners in a WWII japanese camp | 15:01 |
| kanzure | I remember something about that | 15:02 |
| kanzure | they made a tool somehow | 15:02 |
| fenn | they actually cast a lathe out of discarded tin cans, and built a radio transmitter | 15:02 |
| kanzure | did it work? | 15:02 |
| fenn | yeah | 15:02 |
| kanzure | oh shit | 15:02 |
| bkero | ttThat's pretty fucking cool | 15:02 |
| fenn | after every work session they had to disassemble everything and hide it in various places | 15:03 |
| fenn | iirc the batteries went inside a hollow table leg | 15:03 |
| kanzure | ah, so they did have batteries | 15:04 |
| kanzure | and somewhat of an inventory | 15:04 |
| kanzure | see? see? | 15:04 |
| fenn | hmm | 15:04 |
| kanzure | and they did actually have a few arms, see? | 15:04 |
| kanzure | one problem I see is that everyone would want to make everything rely on a human or something | 15:05 |
| kanzure | and not encode constraints in a way that automation solutions can later come in and pick up | 15:05 |
| kanzure | well that's not true I guess | 15:05 |
| kanzure | most of the basic force vectors *are* easily automatable | 15:05 |
| fenn | but they aren't encoded in the first place | 15:05 |
| kanzure | why not? | 15:05 |
| kanzure | I mean, didn't I say they would be? | 15:06 |
| fenn | '2 volumes EtOH' | 15:06 |
| kanzure | heh | 15:06 |
| kanzure | this is why I failed in the ellington lab | 15:06 |
| fenn | i really dont want to have to guess at what the person who wrote the protocol meant | 15:07 |
| kanzure | I agree | 15:07 |
| kanzure | but let's say that they encode a requirement to be able to move something 2 meters | 15:07 |
| kanzure | plus or minus some tolerance | 15:07 |
| kanzure | the typical "doll human model" satisfies that (or it should?) | 15:07 |
| kanzure | which I haven't come up with yet | 15:07 |
| kanzure | the way I see it happening, as we add a package, in the wizard, we will say, "geeze, the doll human can be reasonably expected to be able to do this-or-that" and add it in. | 15:08 |
| fenn | error: insufficient mana | 15:08 |
| kanzure | ? | 15:09 |
| kanzure | I'm trying to remember if there is a reference from the SoM games that I could use here | 15:09 |
| fenn | SoM? | 15:09 |
| kanzure | Secret of Mana | 15:09 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_of_Mana | 15:09 |
| fenn | mana was used in RPG's to represent a store of magical or mental energy | 15:10 |
| kanzure | right | 15:10 |
| kanzure | oooh crap | 15:10 |
| kanzure | there's no way I'm going to program an exercise physiology model of burning calories versus at what point a human might pass out or whatever | 15:11 |
| fenn | seems fairly straightforward to me | 15:11 |
| fenn | modeling mental capabilities is harder | 15:12 |
| kanzure | sure. | 15:12 |
| kanzure | did you see emlyn's recent post? complaining about how most exercise models "assert that humans have all the systematic complexity of a bucket: in, and out" | 15:12 |
| fenn | no i never saw that | 15:13 |
| kanzure | (it was on the extropy-chat list) | 15:13 |
| kanzure | I guess cooking instructions/recipes were going to be something else to include originally as well, so that would go under human maintenance instructions heh | 15:15 |
| kanzure | this is turning kind of weird. | 15:15 |
| fenn | you mean awesome? | 15:15 |
| fenn | people have been fumbling around for centuries with the question of "how to live" | 15:16 |
| fenn | if we can provide some basic analysis of the cost of living, that would certainly help out | 15:18 |
| kanzure | yes, I mean 'awesome'- I forgot my words again | 15:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | the cost as how rich usa-iams live, or how poor usa-ians live? | 15:21 |
| fenn | the cost of living a certain way | 15:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | ah | 15:21 |
| fenn | except turned into physical quantities | 15:21 |
| kanzure | in other words, an aspies' dream computer | 15:21 |
| kanzure | heh' | 15:21 |
| fenn | not some arbitrary number that changes based on chaos effects | 15:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | heh@ kanzure | 15:22 |
| fenn | i mean really, who bases their planning on a chaotic function? wtf! | 15:22 |
| kanzure | arguably it's not much of a plan | 15:22 |
| fenn | don't worry, magic will take care of it | 15:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | you may haveto plan on chaos, i find little rational thinking going on in humans | 15:22 |
| kanzure | don't rely on them | 15:23 |
| kanzure | what's so hard about that? | 15:23 |
| kanzure | besides the knowledge issue | 15:23 |
| katsmeow-afk | i, for instance, am using a 15 watt incandescent bulb where a 2watt led wold be fine, and prolly cheaper upfront, and certainly cheaper in power use | 15:23 |
| kanzure | say, do you know about skdb? | 15:24 |
| fenn | 15 watt isnt very bright | 15:24 |
| kanzure | I mean, do you follow what we're talking about? | 15:24 |
| katsmeow-afk | fenn, it lites only the keybd | 15:24 |
| katsmeow-afk | it's the only lite on in the room, save the monitor | 15:24 |
| fenn | scary | 15:24 |
| fenn | do you have a white on black color scheme? | 15:24 |
| katsmeow-afk | no, why? | 15:24 |
| fenn | doesn't the contrast bother your eyes? | 15:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | heh, the keybd is black on white, sorta | 15:25 |
| fenn | i mean the bright glowing monitor in darkness | 15:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | i keep my eyes moving, and often look away | 15:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | besides, it's daylite out, i am here only a few moments to check on stuff running | 15:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | the 15 watt keybd lamp is brighter | 15:26 |
| fenn | katsmeow-afk: skdb is about technological dependencies, in order to let you know whether it's possible to build something given what you have, or that you'll need to build/buy a certain set of tools to do it efficiently | 15:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | kanzure asked about skdb | 15:27 |
| kanzure | yes, we're explaining it to you | 15:27 |
| katsmeow-afk | kool, thanks | 15:27 |
| kanzure | did I just misunderstand something? | 15:27 |
| fenn | and also to provide instructions on how to build it | 15:27 |
| katsmeow-afk | i think maybe i missed something, but i am always glad to learn new stuff,, mostly | 15:28 |
| kanzure | it's the context that we were talking within when you joined in, in other words | 15:28 |
| katsmeow-afk | ok, proceed | 15:28 |
| kanzure | O.o well er um | 15:29 |
| kanzure | basic human capabilities model, in terms of basic physical quantities | 15:30 |
| kanzure | I'm sure the army has something like that? how long a soldier can run (before dying) | 15:30 |
| * fenn takes a chocolate induced nap/coma | 15:30 | |
| kanzure | night | 15:30 |
| katsmeow-afk | they prolly do, which is why they want exoskeletons, butlikewise, i expect the data is a national secret | 15:31 |
| kanzure | basically it'd be nice to know whether or not an average person is going to be able to do some certain task, like lifting a heavy engine block into place, or doing enough of the things to mount a chain to lift the engine block into place, or something | 15:32 |
| kanzure | if you're not able to execute some of the actions required to build the chain mount, then you're not going to be able to lift the heavy engine block, unless you have enough muscle to do that in the first place | 15:32 |
| kanzure | I don't actually know how heavy an engine block is | 15:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | what i find a lil scarey is the possibilty the exoskeleton may be merged with BigDog, so the soldier can sleep in the exoskeleton in route to the fight | 15:32 |
| kanzure | so this example probably sucks | 15:32 |
| kanzure | heh, that reminds me of Zoids | 15:33 |
| kanzure | does anyone remember zoids? gah | 15:33 |
| katsmeow-afk | depends on engine size and coposition, Tiggr has actual engine weights of common car engines | 15:33 |
| kanzure | http://smilykid.com/black%20impact%20blade%20liger.jpg (the face is the cockpit) | 15:33 |
| katsmeow-afk | basically 150 - 350lbs, stripped of all addons | 15:34 |
| kanzure | 150 is a common weight that some body lifters can do | 15:34 |
| kanzure | I think I can lift 150, though I don't know if I can bench it | 15:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, 150 is lower than some bigger autotrannies | 15:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | the only steel in some engines is the crank, valves, camshaft, and some bolts | 15:35 |
| katsmeow-afk | the rest is aluminum/alloys | 15:35 |
| katsmeow-afk | cylinder liner | 15:36 |
| kanzure | hm so if you consider a stationary human, various stances allow various ranges of forces to be projected across different regions of space | 15:36 |
| * katsmeow-afk nods | 15:37 | |
| kanzure | I feel like I'm making a street fighter game engine | 15:37 |
| kanzure | and considering the entire range of motions might be a bit much.. hrm.. | 15:37 |
| fenn | for human physiological models, i bet nasa has lots of good and publicly available data | 15:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | i believe they do, within spaceflight / aircraft domain | 15:40 |
| fenn | katsmeow-afk: why bother putting a solder in it in the first place | 15:40 |
| katsmeow-afk | fenn, dynamic responce and autonomous control | 15:41 |
| katsmeow-afk | till 2012, at least | 15:41 |
| fenn | katsmeow-afk: you can't pull a 150 pound engine out of a car by hand, even if you can lift that much | 15:41 |
| fenn | this is why we need a human kinematics model (remember i was talking about ergonomics) | 15:41 |
| fenn | er, | 15:41 |
| fenn | ka* | 15:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | you don't want to send in 10 robots, and they suddenly don't recognise each other and all die by friendly fire | 15:42 |
| fenn | teleoperated | 15:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | you cannot pull it out by hand? | 15:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | teleoperated can be broken by interferrence | 15:42 |
| fenn | angles are all wrong | 15:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | what angles? it's ^up^ | 15:42 |
| fenn | hum, seems to work good enough for SWORDS and UAV drones | 15:43 |
| katsmeow-afk | so far it works, i agree | 15:43 |
| katsmeow-afk | "not enough data" can be used to resolve how you use a nuke attack sub to gut a troop transport tho | 15:44 |
| fenn | http://imagebin.org/45170 | 15:44 |
| katsmeow-afk | i can't open a browser atm | 15:44 |
| fenn | the kinematic model would generate a graph like this in 34+ dimensions | 15:44 |
| fenn | or however many degrees of freedom a human has | 15:45 |
| fenn | the process of lifting an engine means the engine mass goes through this 34-dimensional trajectory | 15:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | heh, i was just trying to figure if those Lexus steering units would work on a hip joint last nite, and how to reduce the dof to 2 there,a nd if there was enough speed and force, etc | 15:46 |
| fenn | if it's below the limit at any point, you can't lift it | 15:46 |
| katsmeow-afk | but fenn, the basic vector is up, and the resistance is gravity | 15:46 |
| kanzure | fenn: where did that graph magically come from? | 15:47 |
| fenn | even if you could pick up an engine off the ground, it's not guaranteed you can pull it out of a car | 15:47 |
| katsmeow-afk | granted, there's limits in the human structure, but not in a exosuit designed to overcome those limits | 15:47 |
| fenn | kanzure: i think it was a mother earth news article about building stone fences | 15:47 |
| kanzure | nice | 15:47 |
| kanzure | The strength of the lifting action in man | 15:48 |
| kanzure | RJ Whitney - Ergonomics, 1958 - Taylor & Francis | 15:48 |
| kanzure | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&cites=8240296299011411047 | 15:48 |
| kanzure | "The anthropometry of the manual work space for the seated subject " | 15:48 |
| kanzure | huh | 15:48 |
| kanzure | "Toward a quantitative definition of manual lifting postures " | 15:48 |
| kanzure | "This article reviews the empirical and theoretical bases for recommendations | 15:48 |
| katsmeow-afk | new olympics game: seated engine lifting | 15:48 |
| kanzure | regarding lifting technique" | 15:48 |
| kanzure | YES | 15:48 |
| * kanzure fails | 15:48 | |
| kanzure | "Representing and identifying alternative movement techniques for goal-directed manual tasks" | 15:49 |
| kanzure | "The stability provided by the feet during manoeuvres whilst standing" | 15:49 |
| kanzure | I'm glad there are people that have actually thought about this | 15:49 |
| fenn | i bet their models suck balls | 15:49 |
| katsmeow-afk | that usa business efficency expert that wrote and lectured in the 1950's used data like that, the Japanese ate it up | 15:49 |
| fenn | taylor and gilbreth? | 15:50 |
| katsmeow-afk | fenn, doesn't sound right | 15:50 |
| fenn | gilbreths | 15:50 |
| kanzure | "joint contribution vector" (JCV) | 15:50 |
| kanzure | "this study introduces a quantitative index termed joint contribution vector (JCV) representing a motion in terms of contributions of individual joint degrees-of-freedom to the achievement of the task goal" | 15:50 |
| katsmeow-afk | he was derided in the usa | 15:50 |
| kanzure | oh, it's motion capture data | 15:50 |
| kanzure | blah | 15:50 |
| kanzure | "the JCV and statistical clustering methods enable automated motion classification to uncover a taxonomy of alternative movement techniques." | 15:51 |
| kanzure | yep, sucks balls | 15:51 |
| katsmeow-afk | he preached kenematics and just-in-time delivery etc etc | 15:51 |
| fenn | seems to work for the japanese | 15:51 |
| fenn | JIT i mean | 15:51 |
| katsmeow-afk | i agree, to a point, the usa system isn't/wasn't set up for it | 15:51 |
| kanzure | "Fig. 1. five-segment five-angle kinematic chain representing the human body" | 15:52 |
| kanzure | er. | 15:52 |
| kanzure | is that legit? | 15:52 |
| katsmeow-afk | ordering a million widgets *now* to get bulk price beats ordering 10k widgets a month JIT in the usa financial model | 15:52 |
| fenn | probably easier to deal with than this; http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/hostings/cescg/CESCG-2000/RFilkorn/Image15.gif | 15:52 |
| kanzure | interesting, they did k-means analysis of the clustering of motion | 15:53 |
| fenn | oh, fascinating | 15:53 |
| katsmeow-afk | but the usa scheme is hard on factories and people | 15:53 |
| katsmeow-afk | anyhoo, i gotta go, bbl | 15:53 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Representing%20and%20identifying%20alternative%20movement%20techniques%20for%20goal-directed%20manual%20tasks.pdf | 15:54 |
| kanzure | " | 15:55 |
| kanzure | Identification of alternative movement techniques during the car entering movement" | 15:55 |
| kanzure | " | 15:55 |
| kanzure | WITHDRAWN: Obesity does not reduce maximum acceptable weights of lift" | 15:55 |
| kanzure | huh? How did the idea of "JCV" get "Devender Singh" a masters of sciences in Industrial Engineering? | 15:56 |
| kanzure | it's as if these people figure out how to write a formula and are given a masters degree | 15:56 |
| kanzure | what kind of crap is this? | 15:56 |
| fenn | it's bullshit, and it fuels the american economy | 15:57 |
| fenn | you know, all this stuff might as well not exist if they aren't going to make the code freely available | 15:58 |
| fenn | that's how i see things anyway | 15:58 |
| kanzure | right | 15:58 |
| kanzure | yet-another-thesis-that-bryan-gets-to-reverse-engineer (a.k.a. repeat) | 15:59 |
| kanzure | " | 15:59 |
| kanzure | The axial torque of the lumbar back muscles: torsion strength of the back muscles" | 15:59 |
| kanzure | this probably is going to lead me back to FEM of human bones and muscles | 16:00 |
| kanzure | is there a way to avoid that? | 16:00 |
| fenn | this looks fairly relevant http://ralyx.inrialpes.fr/2006/Raweb/bunraku/uid63.html | 16:00 |
| fenn | yes, you can set the desired level of abstraction to whatever you want | 16:01 |
| fenn | so you can model bones as one element, with a perfect hinge joint for example | 16:01 |
| kanzure | we don't need to max out the human model obviously, just have reasonable limits and so on | 16:02 |
| kanzure | after all, "simple machines" are supposed to help when you start reaching human maximums | 16:02 |
| kanzure | a lot of these studies seem to be on degrees of freedom (which is fine), though not maximum limits on strength exerted on any of those DOFs | 16:03 |
| kanzure | as you said, you might be able to lift it, but with your arms stretched out, reaching into a car's front hood, you might not be able to lift an engine block | 16:03 |
| fenn | right | 16:03 |
| fenn | OROCOS describes this as 'wrench space' | 16:03 |
| kanzure | from ut? | 16:04 |
| kanzure | ah yeah | 16:04 |
| fenn | kleuven.be | 16:04 |
| kanzure | different standing stances (like they teach in martial arts) allow for different postures and different lifting or manipulation | 16:04 |
| kanzure | although that might be an issue of balance rather than force exertion | 16:05 |
| kanzure | balance/center-of-mass | 16:05 |
| fenn | standing up is force exertion | 16:05 |
| fenn | lots of martial arts is about dynamics | 16:05 |
| fenn | but i think we can get away with simple static analysis | 16:05 |
| kanzure | (yay) | 16:05 |
| fenn | of course i'd like the simulators to be as accurate as possible, but better to error on the side of possibility | 16:06 |
| kanzure | aha, found something | 16:06 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/A%20Dynamic%20Biomechanical%20Evaluation%20of%20Lifting%20Maximum%20Acceptable%20Loads.pdf | 16:07 |
| kanzure | can't read it, but otherwise looks like it has an actually clear diagram (gasp) | 16:07 |
| fenn | oh look, a pdf | 16:08 |
| fenn | you mean i get to reverse engineer what these briliant scientists have done? and then i get to write a complex math-intensive program? wow! | 16:08 |
| kanzure | how fun! | 16:08 |
| kanzure | bleh | 16:08 |
| fenn | i know this software exists as open source version in some form | 16:10 |
| fenn | just have to find it | 16:10 |
| kanzure | "Development of computerized human static strength simulation model for job design " | 16:11 |
| kanzure | maybe opensim has something | 16:11 |
| kanzure | erm, nevermind | 16:12 |
| fenn | isnt opensim a virtual avatar thingy like SL? | 16:12 |
| kanzure | yes | 16:13 |
| kanzure | https://simtk.org/xml/about.xml | 16:13 |
| kanzure | https://simtk.org/search/?type_of_search=soft&words=force&Search=+Go+ | 16:14 |
| kanzure | https://simtk.org/home/opensim | 16:14 |
| fenn | well, ok, but what does it do | 16:14 |
| fenn | yarrgh | 16:15 |
| fenn | must create accounts to look at tutorials? | 16:15 |
| fenn | i bet 'freely available' means "you can download it" | 16:16 |
| fenn | This project uses Simtk's subversion code repository, but has restricted access to project members. | 16:17 |
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| kanzure | see this: https://simtk.org/docman/view.php/91/1022/OpenSim_UsersGuide.1.01.pdf | 16:20 |
| kanzure | heh | 16:20 |
| kanzure | that pdf seems to say that forces are included in the model (search for 'forces') | 16:20 |
| kanzure | the last few chapters talk about the file formats involved | 16:20 |
| kanzure | I wouldn't mind seeing an FEA analysis of a weight lifter doing a bench press or something. | 16:22 |
| fenn | that's super duper detailed | 16:22 |
| kanzure | or of goku | 16:22 |
| fenn | i think the kinematics would break upon transforming into a were-monkey | 16:24 |
| fenn | i dont really get the high resolution skeleton | 16:26 |
| fenn | bah. konqueror crash | 16:31 |
| fenn | i think that's my cue to do something else | 16:31 |
| kanzure | bah why is this information so hard to find | 16:38 |
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| katsmeow-afk | because people want to make animation from it, ergo it's proprietary | 17:28 |
| katsmeow-afk | that company that makes PBS sience kid anime has used that to jump into animated commercials | 17:29 |
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| bkero | The internet is falling apart at the seams. | 21:57 |
| fenn | bkero: you're a python wizard right? | 21:59 |
| fenn | how do put a reference to an object in a dict? | 21:59 |
| fenn | such that i can then get the object out of the dict and assign something to it | 22:00 |
| bkero | a = socket.socket(); b = dict(); b[1] = a | 22:03 |
| fenn | that just assigns the value of socket to b[1] | 22:09 |
| fenn | at least it does when a is a number type | 22:10 |
| fenn | >>> b[1]=foo.bar.x | 22:11 |
| fenn | >>> b | 22:11 |
| fenn | {1: 20} | 22:11 |
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| fenn | this would be really easy in C | 22:15 |
| kanzure | hm. so I found something that described exactly what we were looking for | 22:40 |
| kanzure | then emil stopped by and I booted into Windows to watch Slumdog Millionaire, and now I don't know what paper it was | 22:41 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Calculation%20and%20visualization%20of%20the%20dynamic%20ability%20of%20the%20human%20body.pdf | 22:53 |
| kanzure | (that's it) | 23:03 |
| kanzure | hrm, this is going to produce weird results like "of course the human can do it ... by swaying the hips in tune to the mambo dance!" | 23:08 |
| fenn | we can only hope | 23:13 |
| kanzure | I don't know if that would be a good thing or not | 23:14 |
| kanzure | what type of model am I actually looking for? I think I want some sort of fancy n-dimensional volume where I could query whether or not some trajectory can be performed in a single motion | 23:20 |
| kanzure | or something | 23:20 |
| kanzure | and it would check whether or not that amount of force (equivalent to some weight) can be exerted in the direction of that trajectory, given that required motion | 23:20 |
| kanzure | this sucks | 23:20 |
| fenn | yep, sounds about right | 23:21 |
| fenn | and an inverse kinematics solver (or is it forward? i always get confused) | 23:21 |
| fenn | so you can find the minimum energy path | 23:21 |
| kanzure | I found one of those that provided pseudocode and nice animations in a phd thesis paper | 23:21 |
| fenn | this is too much to write | 23:22 |
| fenn | we'd have to use an existing framework like orocos supposedly provides | 23:22 |
| kanzure | (also, I can't find this, but it sounds nice: "Development of a Female Atlas of Strengths") | 23:22 |
| fenn | Atlas of Strengths? sounds like an item from an RPG | 23:22 |
| kanzure | was for the military :) | 23:23 |
| kanzure | ah, here's that thesis: "Interactive reach planning for animated characters using hardware acceleration" (Liu, Y.) | 23:23 |
| fenn | hm | 23:23 |
| kanzure | an easy way to do this would be to have the reach/grasp points encoded in the PCR protocol itself | 23:26 |
| kanzure | or encoded in the knowledge of what a test tube is | 23:27 |
| kanzure | erm, I was going somewhere with that | 23:27 |
| kanzure | something about exporting all of the effort somewhere else | 23:27 |
| kanzure | *to somewhere else | 23:27 |
| fenn | some objects have natural grasp points | 23:27 |
| fenn | 'handles' they call them | 23:28 |
| kanzure | you mean "breakpoints"? :-/ | 23:28 |
| kanzure | I find it weird that this doesn't exist yet | 23:29 |
| * fenn eventually filed that paper under computers/cadcam/constraint-solving/ | 23:29 | |
| kanzure | which of the three? | 23:30 |
| fenn | it's a hierarchy | 23:30 |
| kanzure | of the three papers.. | 23:30 |
| fenn | Calculation and visualization of the dynamic ability of the human body | 23:30 |
| kanzure | this is like the one time that I've got an exact match of something in the literature compared to something I was vaguely thinking of | 23:30 |
| kanzure | enjoy it while it lasts. | 23:31 |
| kanzure | it would be easier though if I could just make up a reasonable approximation of something less than what I am capable of doing | 23:32 |
| kanzure | a "doll model" as I was originally thinking. | 23:32 |
| kanzure | oh wait. | 23:33 |
| kanzure | hrm, it has to be n-dimensional with "all possible variations on joint positions for those DOFs and all calculations performed on them" so that you can do something like lifting from awkward postures | 23:33 |
| kanzure | blah. why can't we just do this in the opposite way and reduce all motions to "simple machines" ? | 23:33 |
| kanzure | too heavy? add a few hundred circular thingies that string can be pulled around | 23:34 |
| kanzure | erm, pullies. | 23:34 |
| fenn | simple machines like robots with only 6 degrees of freedom? :P | 23:38 |
| fenn | you run into a lot of the same problems, that's why | 23:39 |
| fenn | how dare they charge for phd theses! | 23:42 |
| fenn | aha http://cg.cis.upenn.edu/hms/research/archive/NASA/LiuThesis.pdf | 23:47 |
| fenn | now to ferret it away in the bowels of the hard drive never to be looked at again | 23:48 |
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