| --- Day changed Sun Apr 12 2009 | ||
| fenn | some rather funny movies from Liu's thesis work: http://cg.cis.upenn.edu/hms/research/archive/NASA/images.html | 00:04 |
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| kanzure | "Center for Human Modeling and Simulation" | 00:10 |
| * kanzure wonders if they have a braincount > 0 | 00:10 | |
| genehacker | hahaha | 00:12 |
| genehacker | http://resistorbeterminated.com/skynet-model-101-seeks-blood/comment-page-1/#comment-948 | 00:14 |
| genehacker | check it out cheap dna sequencer | 00:14 |
| genehacker | just have to faraday cage the thing | 00:17 |
| fenn | who wants to bet this is a marketing campaign for an upcoming video game | 00:18 |
| genehacker | bah it's for a game | 00:27 |
| genehacker | that would be what's in the box | 00:27 |
| fenn | reminded me too much of ilovebees | 00:28 |
| genehacker | what's in the box? | 00:28 |
| genehacker | hahaha bre's getting help making the makerbot from skynet | 00:28 |
| genehacker | if only | 00:29 |
| genehacker | damn thing might not cost as much | 00:29 |
| genehacker | link to that mill about same size as maker bot but cheaper? | 00:29 |
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| kanzure | bre's a jerk for not being on om | 11:00 |
| fenn | he's too busy making youtube videos to write text | 11:03 |
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| kanzure | heh | 11:09 |
| kanzure | I feel like bre's as much of an ass as tito is now | 11:09 |
| fenn | katsmeow-afk: looks like you could make a stewart platform with those lexus steering units | 11:13 |
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| kanzure | fenn, so I was thinking that with the "doll model" we could just let people assign tasks to The Human when they are making their model. i.e., "need to be able to translate 20 meters in x direction" and they would say, "yes, that's reasonable for a human to do" | 11:57 |
| fenn | how is that better than just not saying anything at all? | 11:59 |
| kanzure | what would not saying anything at all look like? | 12:04 |
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| kanzure | "An object that does not alter the color of light reflected from its surface will appear white" | 12:13 |
| kanzure | fenn: what I was thinking of was providing a dummy package, a doll package, with a specific API of different movements that are possible (like for common lab motions that are required) | 12:15 |
| kanzure | the real sciency way to do this would be to use motion-capture of somebody performing 20 common lab protocols in a lab, and then do regression analysis to figure out all categories of common movements | 12:15 |
| kanzure | but we know from experience that we can say three or four basic different movements like "move(obj,pos)" and "shake" and so on | 12:16 |
| kanzure | so we would just have to ask whether or not some future 6-axis robo-arm package is compatible with "dummy-doll-1.1.3" | 12:16 |
| kanzure | (in particular, the API with the move() calls and such) | 12:17 |
| kanzure | right? | 12:17 |
| fenn | i say if you're concerned about compatibility/interchangeability then specify the process, i.e. what happens to the thing you're doing stuff to | 12:17 |
| kanzure | we were talking about a constraints-based representation of the process of PCR, such that we could say pre/post conditions after each step | 12:18 |
| kanzure | and those conditions might involve something like moving something somewhere else | 12:18 |
| kanzure | so you'd somehow specify that you need to move something | 12:19 |
| kanzure | gah, this is too abstract | 12:19 |
| kanzure | how are automatic pipetter robots programmed? in terms of CAM.. | 12:20 |
| fenn | no idea | 12:20 |
| fenn | i recall seeing some CSV files on openwetware | 12:20 |
| kanzure | I think they assume a specific array of pipette tips | 12:20 |
| kanzure | and then it's just a matter of passing a few variables about the xy location of where something interesting is | 12:20 |
| kanzure | they don't even do positioning/staging- they just have an array of pipette-connections that move down on to the array :p | 12:21 |
| kanzure | (well, some of them, I mean) | 12:21 |
| fenn | i think it would be rather hard to move drops from one well to another without positioning | 12:22 |
| kanzure | was thinking of something else then, maybe from The Robot Scientist video where they were doing things in bulk and just transferred things from one array/plate to another | 12:23 |
| fenn | probably | 12:23 |
| kanzure | they get to assume static frames of reference. | 12:24 |
| fenn | it's quite common to have 8 pipettes in a row all doing the same thing | 12:24 |
| kanzure | wait, why can't we assume static frames of reference? | 12:24 |
| kanzure | so, when I was doing benchwork, most people just had little tubes laying around all over the place | 12:24 |
| kanzure | and they never really had a good organization scheme | 12:25 |
| kanzure | some people were smart and kept them in their plastic-container-array thingies. | 12:25 |
| kanzure | of course, you could get confused when trying to place something at a particular xy location in the array | 12:25 |
| kanzure | but not if you had instructions or something | 12:25 |
| fenn | uh, who doesn't keep tubes in a tube rack? | 12:25 |
| kanzure | what are those tiny tubes-that-aren't-tubes that you put in thermocyclers? | 12:25 |
| fenn | mini tubes? | 12:26 |
| kanzure | some people store their NTPs in them | 12:26 |
| fenn | there's two sizes of eppendorf tubes | 12:26 |
| kanzure | hrm. maybe? anyway, those | 12:26 |
| fenn | microcentrifuge tubes i think they're called | 12:26 |
| kanzure | yeah, that's the size | 12:26 |
| kanzure | the desktop centrifuges and the small tubes for 'em | 12:26 |
| kanzure | anyway, my labmates didn't have a systematic way of placing them | 12:26 |
| kanzure | sometimes they would just be randomly thrown on ice while something else was being done | 12:27 |
| kanzure | (maybe I'm just the most anal lab monkey ever?) | 12:27 |
| kanzure | anyway, I mentioned this because if we can assume a 'static frame of reference'- like an 'array cartridge' for storing microcentrifuge tubes- then we don't have to deal with positional constraints really | 12:28 |
| kanzure | we just say whether or not the PCR machine is compatible with a 10x10-skdb-blah-name-microcentrifuge-tube-array | 12:28 |
| fenn | ok this is nothing new | 12:28 |
| kanzure | (and of course, it wouldn't be, since we'd probably want to design one that didn't work on an array first? I dunno) | 12:28 |
| kanzure | yeah it is | 12:28 |
| kanzure | because now we don't have to do all that doll stuff :p | 12:28 |
| fenn | you invented this doll stuff to make things harder on yourself | 12:29 |
| kanzure | anything that implements the microcentrifuge-tube-array will just need to implement move() and transfer() and a few other thingies | 12:29 |
| kanzure | thanks mr. psychologist | 12:29 |
| kanzure | ~ :p | 12:29 |
| kanzure | now how do you tell whether or not you have something that implements the microcentrifuge-tube-array holder and its API? | 12:30 |
| fenn | yes it's nice to have a model of what a human is capable of, for checking whether something is compatible | 12:30 |
| fenn | no you don't have to specify every little movement in every protocol | 12:30 |
| fenn | if it 'implements' something it'll have the tag in it's functionality list | 12:31 |
| kanzure | ok, so a pipette will be a compatible part- what my question is asking is how do you know that a human can hold the pipette | 12:32 |
| kanzure | we know that humans can hold them (heck, they are designed for grasping) | 12:32 |
| kanzure | oh, it seems I've just pushed the same problem to another place | 12:32 |
| kanzure | drats | 12:32 |
| kanzure | if you let me specify that a human can grasp it (this is what I called a "stopper" or "terminator" in terms of the recursion of whether or not the person has a tool laying around to do something, or if they have something equivalent already (i.e., their hands)) | 12:34 |
| kanzure | then that would be so much easier .. | 12:34 |
| kanzure | (than the doll stuff) | 12:34 |
| fenn | if it has a handle, feel free to tag it as a handle | 12:34 |
| kanzure | what good does that do? ok, you have it tagged 'handle' now what? | 12:35 |
| fenn | now your doll human knows where to pick it up | 12:35 |
| kanzure | oh, you mean tagging a surface/interface on the model as 'handle' and then checking whether or not the "hand" geometrically fits there? | 12:36 |
| fenn | something like that | 12:36 |
| kanzure | but some other grasping part in the db might match too | 12:36 |
| fenn | sure | 12:36 |
| kanzure | hm. does there need to be a bias for finding solutions that the "doll" is involved in? | 12:37 |
| fenn | no reason to discriminate against artifical humans :P | 12:37 |
| fenn | it's a matter of cost optimization | 12:37 |
| kanzure | but then you'll be building things forever in an attempt to get this weird artificial hand working, giant pipes and manufacturing plants wired up all the way up to Escher's hand (the hand-that-makes-a-hand) | 12:37 |
| fenn | if the human is cheaper/already available, then use it (if you're optimizing based on cost) | 12:38 |
| kanzure | whereas you could have just used a human hand for that silly PCR protocol so many hundreds of years ago :p | 12:38 |
| kanzure | I see | 12:38 |
| kanzure | so the search algorithm just needs to have some weights that the user can adjust I guess | 12:38 |
| fenn | btw have you seen youtube.com/watch?v=ZaHQ3ZYy4IE.flv and youtube.com/watch?v=u7KIp7A8iqs.flv | 12:39 |
| fenn | oops | 12:39 |
| fenn | s/.flv// | 12:39 |
| kanzure | neat. no, I hadn't | 12:39 |
| kanzure | there was one that I showed you a while back that was proprietary and was doing the typical egg-pick-up and such | 12:40 |
| fenn | the shadow robot hand? | 12:40 |
| fenn | same technology, festo just copied and made a better arm | 12:40 |
| kanzure | heh, a dumbell | 12:41 |
| kanzure | they so need to show that robot operating a lathe or mill | 12:41 |
| fenn | i wonder why it moves so slow | 12:41 |
| fenn | airmuscles can move really quickly | 12:41 |
| kanzure | afraid of breaking it? | 12:41 |
| kanzure | hm, crazy mad scientist time: they need a way to convert a given 'muscular definition file'- of some random model- and then a converter to to translate it into an air muscle design | 12:44 |
| kanzure | even with the "tag an interface as a handle" method, you still need to do 'translational constraints' or some way to specify the required number of degrees of freedom | 12:47 |
| kanzure | otherwise you get a search result that can fit the handle but just sits there | 12:49 |
| kanzure | imagine a giant block of granite but with a sculpted handle-holding-part on one of the faces :p | 12:49 |
| * fenn imagines | 12:50 | |
| kanzure | has zero DOF | 12:50 |
| kanzure | *DOFs | 12:50 |
| kanzure | so there needs to be a way to distinguish it, I mean | 12:50 |
| kanzure | but if there's a way to do it without 'dolls' .. since you figure it's just me making things more complicated .. | 12:50 |
| fenn | the doll should be able to figure out how to grasp the handle | 12:51 |
| fenn | you shouldn't provide grasp trajectories because they change all the time anyway | 12:52 |
| fenn | similarly for how to lay out a lab bench, or how to move pipette tip around | 12:52 |
| fenn | you just say what you want done "move this over there" | 12:53 |
| fenn | or even better "this should be over there now" | 12:53 |
| fenn | and at runtime the doll says 'hey i can do that' | 12:53 |
| kanzure | wha? | 12:53 |
| kanzure | and at runtime the granite block says "mu" ? | 12:53 |
| fenn | or simulation time or whatever | 12:54 |
| kanzure | so why did you spend all that time building the granite block? | 12:54 |
| fenn | dunno, wtf is this granite block for? | 12:54 |
| kanzure | it matched the handle | 12:54 |
| fenn | wall-climbing exercise? | 12:54 |
| kanzure | nope, it had a hand-sculpture on one of its surfaces | 12:54 |
| kanzure | and it happens to match the pipette handle | 12:54 |
| fenn | was it tagged as a handle? | 12:54 |
| kanzure | the pipette had a part tagged handle yeah | 12:55 |
| fenn | if you want to have a reasonable chance of ever getting around to evaluating the sculpture's suitability as a handle, you should tag it as a handle | 12:55 |
| kanzure | ok, so fine, it's tagged handle too | 12:55 |
| fenn | otherwise, dont blame me for not being able to read your mind | 12:55 |
| kanzure | my point is that it just sits there | 12:55 |
| fenn | why, because it's heavy? | 12:56 |
| kanzure | because it's a block of granite | 12:56 |
| kanzure | it doesn't do anything really | 12:56 |
| fenn | sure it does | 12:56 |
| kanzure | oh? | 12:56 |
| fenn | ever heard of a surface plate? | 12:56 |
| kanzure | yes? | 12:56 |
| fenn | it just sits there | 12:56 |
| fenn | but for some reason people pay thousands of dollars for them | 12:56 |
| kanzure | so why would the doll be chosen over the granite block | 12:57 |
| fenn | because the doll is a positioner | 12:58 |
| kanzure | how does the computer know that? | 12:58 |
| fenn | that's one of its functionalities | 12:58 |
| kanzure | that didn't help :( | 12:58 |
| fenn | it's tagged that way | 12:58 |
| kanzure | so a linear actuator is also a positioner | 12:59 |
| fenn | the positioner class allows you to move things within their limits | 12:59 |
| fenn | yes a linear actuator is also a positioner | 12:59 |
| kanzure | within what limit? | 12:59 |
| kanzure | so you need a way to distinguish positioners | 12:59 |
| kanzure | .. | 12:59 |
| fenn | force limits, accuracy limits, travel limits | 12:59 |
| kanzure | what is a travel limit? | 12:59 |
| fenn | work envelope | 12:59 |
| kanzure | but I thought we agreed it changes with respect to force exertion | 13:00 |
| fenn | how far you can move your arm | 13:00 |
| kanzure | depends on how much I'm lifting/pushing | 13:00 |
| fenn | yeah it's a complex problem | 13:00 |
| kanzure | so tagging it positioner doesn't help | 13:00 |
| fenn | yes it does | 13:00 |
| fenn | it cuts down the search space from literally everything in the database, to just positioners | 13:00 |
| fenn | presumably the search heuristics would look at things you already have first | 13:01 |
| kanzure | um, on another note, | 13:01 |
| kanzure | I've never bought a linear actuator | 13:01 |
| kanzure | but does it come with information on how much force it can exert or how it changes with respect to motion | 13:02 |
| kanzure | blah, that's hard to describe | 13:02 |
| kanzure | in the case of the Festo hand+arm, you can't lift anything by the fingers that can't be lifted by the first link/arm-part | 13:02 |
| fenn | me either | 13:02 |
| fenn | unless you count a paintball gun :P | 13:02 |
| fenn | linear actuators are usually constant force with respect to travel distance | 13:03 |
| fenn | airmuscles are unusual in this respect | 13:04 |
| fenn | ignoring the whole complicated arm kinematics for a sec | 13:04 |
| fenn | the airmuscle exerts the most force when it's fully extended | 13:04 |
| fenn | and yes, festo provides graphs showing that | 13:04 |
| fenn | but what you're talking about with the hand/arm is totally different | 13:05 |
| fenn | that has to do with wrench space and changes in leverage and moment of inertia as the arm moves around | 13:05 |
| kanzure | ok, how about this, what if we classified work envelopes, and we just said that such-and-such is compatible with a class-blah work envelope | 13:07 |
| fenn | most robot arms and human arms have similar extension/leverage characteristics, but for example a hexapod robot is also nonlinear but has totally different kind of nonlinearity | 13:07 |
| kanzure | and a work envelope classification would involve something like a range of masses and motions | 13:07 |
| kanzure | "here's what this work envelope looks like. does this look like your work envelope?" and later we'll write some better software | 13:07 |
| fenn | sure that would probably work fine in practice | 13:07 |
| fenn | 'work envelope' means the range of motion in terms of distance | 13:08 |
| fenn | payload and acceleration are described separately | 13:08 |
| kanzure | ok, so we need a force-work envelope or something | 13:08 |
| kanzure | erm | 13:08 |
| fenn | no need to lump it all together | 13:08 |
| kanzure | I think it should be described together as a package | 13:08 |
| fenn | why? | 13:08 |
| kanzure | because payload limits change with respect to acceleration and distance | 13:08 |
| kanzure | it's coupled. | 13:09 |
| fenn | but a 1kg payload robot is guaranteed to be able to move 1kg across its work envelope | 13:09 |
| kanzure | o rly? | 13:09 |
| kanzure | ok, great | 13:09 |
| fenn | it could probably do more in certain poses/distances but that's too hard for stupid humans to figure out | 13:10 |
| kanzure | kind of like "overclocking" or pushing the performance limits | 13:10 |
| fenn | not really | 13:10 |
| kanzure | which might not actually be really "pushing it"- but stupid humans and such don't know that ;-) | 13:10 |
| kanzure | oh | 13:10 |
| kanzure | hrm | 13:10 |
| fenn | i mean it's like not trying to pick up a jug of milk with your arm fully extended | 13:10 |
| kanzure | I think I can go write some code now | 13:12 |
| kanzure | the latest xkcd is cute. | 13:22 |
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| kanzure | aw, so I was making some simple models in heekscad and it keeps crashing :( | 13:50 |
| kanzure | time to update. | 13:50 |
| kanzure | fenn: um. importing OCC in a python script is a lot of overhead. I don't know how else to get surfaces/faces though :/ | 14:22 |
| fenn | dont import all of OCC at once | 14:22 |
| fenn | just get what you need | 14:22 |
| fenn | from OCC import FaceStuffs | 14:23 |
| kanzure | and FileReaderStuffs | 14:23 |
| kanzure | what I'm doing is getting a list of surfaces and seeing if it makes sense to reference the internal OCC face IDs with the constraints that are supposedly 'attached' to certain faces/interfaces | 14:24 |
| kanzure | which will really make the system throw up every time a model is changed significantly (oh well?) | 14:24 |
| kanzure | hrm, I wonder why "from OCC import BRepPrimAPI" also imported OCC.IGESControl_Writer | 14:29 |
| kanzure | erm, I mean, OCC.IGESControl_Controller() | 14:29 |
| kanzure | oh, I see, it's assuming InteractiveViewer.py | 14:30 |
| kanzure | fenn, do you know which version of pythonocc might be stable? | 14:50 |
| kanzure | I tried out some of the topology stuff, but the faces stuff doesn't work, although on 2009-04-03, Jelle posted some example code, but svn up isn't giving me code that compiles. | 14:50 |
| fenn | none are stable | 14:52 |
| fenn | where's the code? | 14:52 |
| kanzure | search the mailing list archives for BRepFeat | 14:53 |
| fenn | BRepFeat.py never gets built | 15:00 |
| kanzure | oh? | 15:02 |
| kanzure | I see BRepFeat.i | 15:03 |
| kanzure | I also see BRepFeat.py in pythonOCC/src/OCC/ | 15:03 |
| kanzure | hm, there's nothing in there though really | 15:03 |
| kanzure | why is SWIG separated into two folders (SWIG_src_modular_linux_darwin and SWIG_src_modular_win32) ? | 15:04 |
| fenn | because he runs the generator script and puts the output in those folders (instead of just having people build the swig files on their own system) | 15:06 |
| fenn | doesn't make sense to me, and just seems to screw things up more often | 15:06 |
| kanzure | if I remove the swig files, will they be regenerated by the scons/make script? | 15:14 |
| fenn | maybe | 15:14 |
| fenn | that's my understanding but it's hard to search for manual changes vs just things he changed in the generator script | 15:15 |
| fenn | i keep getting __PYTHONOCC_MAXINT__ undefined in AIS_wrap.cc | 15:19 |
| kanzure | me too | 15:19 |
| fenn | ./environment.py: ('__PYTHONOCC_MAXINT__',sys.maxint) | 15:21 |
| fenn | maybe that needs to go in SConstruct | 15:21 |
| fenn | add that to DEFINE_MACROS in SConstruct | 15:27 |
| kanzure | I don't see how. DEFINE_MACROS=['WNT','WIN32','_WINDOWS','CSFDB','NDEBUG'] | 15:30 |
| kanzure | oh | 15:30 |
| kanzure | blah | 15:31 |
| kanzure | okay, nevermind, I see it in the linux side of things :) | 15:31 |
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| --- Log opened Sun Apr 12 16:38:21 2009 | ||
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| kanzure | fenn: updating pythonocc didn't seem to make it work, though I don't know why I thought it would | 16:49 |
| fenn | well, that's not surprising | 16:50 |
| kanzure | how do you know BRepFeat isn't being included? | 16:51 |
| kanzure | oh. | 16:54 |
| kanzure | BRepFeat.i in the windows version has the word 'Face' in it, but in the linux_darwin/ dir, that word doesn't appear in the file | 16:54 |
| kanzure | hrm | 16:54 |
| kanzure | that's probably not much of an indicator of anything being wrong though | 16:59 |
| fenn | do you know anyone named emily daniels? | 17:05 |
| fenn | oh hmm nevermind, just a hash collision | 17:05 |
| fenn | emily_daniel != emily_daniels | 17:05 |
| kanzure- | what you be doing? | 17:10 |
| kanzure- | I wish all these programmers that really only program on windows would just admit that they are using ubuntu discs to log in every once and a while and check compatibility with linux or something, instead of advertizing it as completely linux compatible or something | 17:25 |
| fenn | apparently my mom talks to Sung won Lim (4phlebas on diybio) on twitter, so she forwarded him to me.. one of his twitter friends is 'emily daniels', and one of my contacts in hotmail from god knows when is emily_daniel and i have no idea where it came from | 17:32 |
| fenn | he's also following david nunez, so it wasnt totally unthinkable | 17:32 |
| fenn | wow firefox is "so cool" ~~ | 17:35 |
| fenn | AutoCopy. The basic use: It copies anyt text you select on the web as soon as you select it—no Ctrl+C necessary. For pasting into text forms, you simply hit the middle mouse button rather than Control+V. | 17:35 |
| fenn | ironically it's always firefox that fucks up my x selection buffer | 17:35 |
| fenn | if i say "star system" does that mean (to the layperson) a star and the crap floating around it, or multiple stars orbiting each other? | 17:41 |
| kanzure- | single star and other crap floating around it | 17:43 |
| kanzure- | star cluster is the cluster of stars. | 17:44 |
| kanzure- | odd that your mom knew a diybio fellow | 17:44 |
| kanzure- | maybe it's just an effect of being in college, but everything seems different. more crazy-tech getting in the news. more people knowing about transhumanism/singularity stuff. more people interested in diybio. what's going on? | 17:45 |
| fenn | you're asking the wrong guy | 17:48 |
| * fenn mumbles something about 2012 | 17:48 | |
| kanzure- | pfft | 18:00 |
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| fenn_ | sung won lim seems pretty cool http://bookhling.wordpress.com/tag/transhumanism/ | 18:43 |
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| kanzure | nice. | 18:44 |
| kanzure | hm, copying BRepFeat_* and BRepFeat.i from Windows, plus the dependencies that it demands (of the other packages, which you can discover by running scons and letting it fail), seems to let it work. I'm currently compiling via python setup.py install to check to make sure it actually installs or something this time, rather than just assuming my scripts are failing | 18:50 |
| kanzure | neat, it worked | 19:29 |
| fenn | would you dig through your history file and see what files those are? | 19:29 |
| kanzure | how do I get multiple xterms and konsoles to save my histories right? | 19:30 |
| fenn | close them out, the file is written when the shell exits | 19:31 |
| fenn | it will be jumbled though, not chronological | 19:31 |
| kanzure | hrm. okay. | 19:31 |
| fenn | also you have to set something like HISTTIMEFORMAT="%k:%M; HISTSIZE=1000000 | 19:32 |
| fenn | "%k:%M " i mean | 19:32 |
| fenn | to save times to the file | 19:33 |
| genehacker | http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12056 | 19:33 |
| fenn | not a very reliable method but i dont know how else to do it | 19:33 |
| genehacker | liquid neural interface | 19:33 |
| kanzure | http://www.pythonocc.org/wiki/index.php/Install_Linux | 19:35 |
| kanzure | fenn: there you go. | 19:35 |
| fenn | tak | 19:35 |
| kanzure | ? | 19:35 |
| fenn | it's malaysian or something | 19:36 |
| fenn | "thanks" | 19:36 |
| kanzure | genehacker: How does it keep the monolayers separated for separate electrodes? What's the resolution? | 19:37 |
| fenn | and danish too, apparently | 19:37 |
| kanzure | the paper: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Electrochemical%20polymerization%20of%20conducting%20polymers%20in%20living%20neural%20tissue.pdf | 19:39 |
| genehacker | no idea | 19:40 |
| genehacker | it's so your neurons don't get scarred | 19:41 |
| kanzure- | yeah | 19:41 |
| fenn | one way to get high resolution is to make the electrodes as tubes and seep monomer liquid into the tissue around each tube | 19:42 |
| kanzure- | I was thinking it would be neat if there'd be a way to have a high voltage mode where the electrodes would get super hot to polymerize a polymer | 19:42 |
| kanzure- | but that's probably deadly. | 19:42 |
| fenn | water catalyzed reactions could work | 19:47 |
| fenn | but those are often gnarly chemicals | 19:47 |
| genehacker | yeah no shit kanzure | 19:52 |
| genehacker | I don't want to cook my cortices | 19:56 |
| kanzure- | genehacker: when I get some more free time over the summer, maybe I'll show you how to design a brain implant | 19:57 |
| genehacker | cool | 19:59 |
| fenn | insert rfid chip + coiled antenna-wire into a syringe; drill hole in skull; insert under meninges | 20:04 |
| kanzure- | um, rfid chips have electrode arrays? | 20:04 |
| fenn | got a better idea? | 20:04 |
| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/books/Biology/neuro/ | 20:05 |
| kanzure- | many? | 20:05 |
| fenn | well, pick one | 20:05 |
| kanzure- | microelectrode array | 20:05 |
| fenn | and how do you make that, and how do you implant it | 20:05 |
| kanzure- | you implant it very carefully :( | 20:05 |
| kanzure- | you get it via the link genehacker gave you | 20:05 |
| kanzure- | $80 for a somewhat large array | 20:06 |
| fenn | 'large' meaning what precisely? | 20:06 |
| genehacker | you sterilize so you don't get a nasty brain infection | 20:06 |
| kanzure- | > 10x10 | 20:06 |
| fenn | also i'm not terribly concerned about price for a brain implant.. | 20:07 |
| fenn | as long as it's <$100k | 20:07 |
| kanzure- | since when do you have teh monies? | 20:07 |
| fenn | i mean it's not a frickin USB gadget | 20:07 |
| fenn | kanzure: how much do you think the surgery would cost alone? | 20:09 |
| fenn | i'm talking real surgery here, not power drill + buddy with some ice | 20:09 |
| kanzure- | how about some medical student without a medical license, or doctor in foreign country? | 20:09 |
| fenn | well? | 20:11 |
| kanzure- | I haven't asked them how much it would cost | 20:12 |
| fenn | i'm guessing around $5-10k | 20:13 |
| fenn | maybe lots more | 20:14 |
| kanzure- | hm, I don't know how much brain surgery costs | 20:15 |
| kanzure- | also, what happened to all that talk about ultrasound, infrared, or rTMS? | 20:16 |
| kanzure- | much less costly (for the moment) | 20:16 |
| fenn | well, they aren't implants, for one.. | 20:20 |
| kanzure- | yes, but if you wanted to really play with implants, you'd do some culturing or testing on rats or rabbits or something first | 20:28 |
| kanzure- | what's wrong with the "a buddy and some ice" approach? | 20:28 |
| fenn | you're likely to die or get an infection | 20:33 |
| fenn | also hard to find said buddy | 20:33 |
| kanzure- | say, .. buddy. | 20:33 |
| kanzure- | nudge nudge wink wink | 20:34 |
| fenn | why dont i have OCC.Utils? | 20:34 |
| kanzure- | hm | 20:34 |
| kanzure- | did I do something special? | 20:34 |
| fenn | sorry i'm not drilling into your skull | 20:34 |
| ybit | i wonder what the protocols are in China for ordering certain chemicals | 20:36 |
| kanzure- | probably a few drowned female babies | 20:36 |
| ybit | lol | 20:37 |
| ybit | i would like to live there to know and study Mandarin on the side, but I wouldn't go over there first before knowing what their laws are concerning these things | 20:37 |
| ybit | -"to know and" | 20:37 |
| ybit | um, +to | 20:37 |
| ybit | :P | 20:37 |
| ybit | i want to learn another language, it's something i've thought about for awhile now. i think 2 is enough, more than that and your just wasting your time imo | 20:39 |
| ybit | but english is the de facto for communication, even the hong kong public library has english on the front | 20:40 |
| ybit | it's statue in the front says "the world is my book", my or our i forget | 20:40 |
| ybit | its* | 20:40 |
| ybit | any insights, surely some of you have thought about this | 20:41 |
| fenn | i have thought about moving to china | 20:41 |
| kanzure- | firewall | 20:42 |
| fenn | had intended to learn mandarin but then i forgot the name of the asian culture house or whatever, and couldnt find the schedule for free classes | 20:42 |
| fenn | kanzure: firewall is really no big deal in practice | 20:43 |
| kanzure- | what is the technical spec of their firewall anyway? | 20:43 |
| ybit | mandarin is a hideous language though, if it and their culture were more like japanese, that would be great | 20:43 |
| fenn | just doesn't forward packets from certain IP's | 20:43 |
| fenn | ybit surely you know that half of japanese is derived from mandarin | 20:44 |
| ybit | the kanji, sure, but the rest makes it easy to pick up the language quickly | 20:44 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Japanese_compound | 20:45 |
| fenn | its sort of like saying 'half of english is derived from latin' though | 20:45 |
| ybit | the rest: katakana and hiragana | 20:45 |
| kanzure | "raising a string exception is deprecated" | 20:48 |
| kanzure | blah | 20:48 |
| kanzure | huh, face.Complement() | 20:49 |
| fenn | swap the normals | 20:49 |
| ybit | fenn: i know what you're talking about when mentioned the chinese learning centers, and i can't find them, looking for it still | 20:49 |
| fenn | ybit: it was something associated with indiana university | 20:49 |
| ybit | found it: Confucius Institutes | 20:50 |
| ybit | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute | 20:50 |
| fenn | if that's not a missionary i dont know what is | 20:50 |
| kanzure | neat, face.IsSame(other_face) | 20:51 |
| ybit | it's sponsored by the chinese government, it's not a missionary :P | 20:51 |
| kanzure | http://www.opencascade.org/support/products/coldet/ | 20:52 |
| kanzure | blah, screw them | 20:52 |
| ybit | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute | 20:52 |
| ybit | hmm, did i just paste that again... | 20:52 |
| ybit | don't know because i cleared the screen by accident | 20:52 |
| ybit | anyway, seems the indiana has a one on campus, and i bet that's where the classes were | 20:53 |
| fenn | no, that's IUPUI which is 50 miles north | 20:53 |
| kanzure | so now I'm confused about collision detection because that page doesn't make it sound easy | 20:53 |
| kanzure | but I'm used to making simple collision detection algorithms | 20:53 |
| fenn | this wasnt a chinese specific thing, they taught all sorts of languages | 20:53 |
| kanzure | maybe I could do a volume/displacement method | 20:56 |
| kanzure | or, actually, not implementing collision detection for now is ok | 20:57 |
| ybit | kanzure: i'm guessing you are simulating parts of an exoskeleton, right? | 20:58 |
| kanzure | nope | 20:58 |
| kanzure | part mating for skdb. | 20:58 |
| kanzure | I even have a (small) sample catalog of parts made up of pegs and holes (I know, I know, the world sucks) | 20:58 |
| fenn | so tell me, does a round peg fit into a square hole? | 20:59 |
| kanzure | what type of material? | 21:00 |
| fenn | wood | 21:00 |
| kanzure | can it be forced into shapes with only 1 to 100 Newtons of force? | 21:00 |
| fenn | depends on the size | 21:01 |
| kanzure | wait, am I the one who is supposed to be right here? or are you trying to bring me down? | 21:01 |
| kanzure | I forget | 21:01 |
| fenn | dunno | 21:01 |
| kanzure | sometimes I've put round pegs in square holes, yes | 21:02 |
| kanzure | neat, moving a face doesn't separate it from its object. | 21:07 |
| ybit | thinking i may give up on mandarin. i couldn't trust others to interpret the chinese laws correctly, nor could i trust myself for 7-10 years, or until i could read and actually understand the meaning of the literature. | 21:08 |
| ybit | may just wait until i can download the language to my brain :) | 21:08 |
| ybit | or use open rTMS to enhance my memory of their 1k+ alphabet | 21:08 |
| kanzure | there is no evidence of any enhancements with any particular rTMS stimulation pattern | 21:09 |
| kanzure | just saying. | 21:09 |
| kanzure | don't be like the last guy who ran in here wearing a helmet of infrared LEDs claiming to have "positive effects" | 21:09 |
| kanzure | because of his n=1 trial testing "with my cat, Whiskers" | 21:10 |
| ybit | heh | 21:10 |
| ybit | hmm, no evidence... | 21:10 |
| * ybit searches | 21:10 | |
| kanzure | well, there is some evidence of really interesting things happening | 21:10 |
| kanzure | like arms flailing around, regions of the brain shutting off etc | 21:10 |
| kanzure | but that's not necessarily enhancement | 21:10 |
| ybit | yeah yeah, i've seen that | 21:10 |
| ybit | not what i'm going by though | 21:11 |
| ybit | not even sure what i'm going by, i could have swore i saw a paper on this... | 21:11 |
| kanzure | see: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/open-rtms/ | 21:12 |
| ybit | http://scholar.google.com:80/scholar?q=memory+rtms&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=Search | 21:13 |
| ybit | Statistical comparison of memory performance during rTMS and baseline testings | 21:13 |
| ybit | without stimulation revealed no significant chan | 21:13 |
| ybit | :\ | 21:13 |
| ybit | hanges.* | 21:13 |
| ybit | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T0D-3VM6JW8-4&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=9324bfb03c3576a5dca3584c54ed6ef9 | 21:13 |
| ybit | bah, i can get that paper | 21:13 |
| kanzure | ok, maybe this: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/open-rtms/Repetitive%20Transcranial%20Magnetic%20Stimulation%20Dissociates%20Working%20Memory%20Manipulation%20from%20Retention.pdf | 21:14 |
| kanzure | " | 21:16 |
| kanzure | Personality traits are correlated with motor cortex excitability a transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) study" | 21:16 |
| kanzure | neat. | 21:16 |
| kanzure | "Modulation of the neuronal circuitry subserving working memory in healthy human subjects by repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation | 21:16 |
| kanzure | "Localization of the motor hand area using transcranial magnetic stimulation and functional magnetic resonance imaging" <- bwahaha | 21:18 |
| ybit | "Consensus: Can transcranial direct current stimulation and transcranial magnetic stimulation enhance motor learning and memory formation?" http://filebin.ca/thjmft | 21:21 |
| ybit | sciencedirect's search is terrible | 21:22 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/open-rtms/?C=M;O=D | 21:24 |
| kanzure | ok, added it | 21:24 |
| kanzure | yeah, it is. | 21:24 |
| kanzure | google scholar for the win | 21:24 |
| kanzure | btw, I have a subscription to all sciencedirect journals that arrives in my inbox- the equivalent of their "notify me of new interesting shit" and "notify me of anything new", so I have a rather large (10k+) email archive collection of various goings on | 21:25 |
| ybit | http://filebin.ca/pwbryh | 21:26 |
| ybit | Transcranial magnetic stimulation can measure and modulate | 21:26 |
| ybit | learning and memory | 21:26 |
| ybit | """ | 21:26 |
| kanzure | "Visual working memory revealed by repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation" | 21:26 |
| ybit | anyway, i suppose this is why i was thinking rTMS could help me with Mandarin | 21:27 |
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| kanzure | haha, I love this: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/open-rtms/Transcranial%20magnetic%20stimulation-induced%20switch%20into%20mania%20-%20a%20report%20of%20two%20cases.pdf | 21:29 |
| kanzure | Case 1, she's awesome. | 21:29 |
| kanzure | where can I sign up to get her? | 21:30 |
| kanzure | case 2 is also interesting | 21:30 |
| kanzure | too bad I'm not depressed. hrm. | 21:31 |
| kanzure | how does one become depressed? do I have to "go goth"? | 21:31 |
| kanzure | (I'm kidding, of course) | 21:31 |
| ybit | heh | 21:33 |
| fenn | 'increased goal-directed activity' is a symptom? | 21:45 |
| kanzure | heh | 21:48 |
| kanzure | bad boy! bad! silly human, having goals! | 21:48 |
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| kanzure | "Prolonged peripheral nerve stimulation induces persistent changes in excitability of human motor cortex" | 21:59 |
| fenn | is that a good thing? | 22:00 |
| kanzure | dunno, google scholar doesn't come in "good/bad"-color-vision | 22:01 |
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| ybit | ;P | 22:13 |
| ybit | meh, wrong emoticon, whatever. good joke though :) | 22:13 |
| genehacker | I think it is bad | 22:15 |
| kanzure | don't go wild just yet, but: | 22:16 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/bibliographies/rTMS.bib | 22:16 |
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| ybit | i'm pretty sure i have everything public on heybryan | 22:17 |
| kanzure | nah, /books/papers/bibliographies/ is new. | 22:18 |
| ybit | but thanks for the heads up, it takes awhile to cipher through all the docs to find what i need | 22:18 |
| ybit | how recent? | 22:18 |
| kanzure | um, four hours ago? | 22:18 |
| ybit | okay then, i don't have it | 22:18 |
| kanzure | yeah .. | 22:18 |
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| kanzure | does anyone know a good source for acquiring "velvet bean"? | 23:05 |
| kanzure | ybit: that rTMS.bib file has been updated. | 23:05 |
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| kanzure | where are weight-dosage charts published for pharmaceuticals? | 23:09 |
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