| --- Day changed Fri Apr 17 2009 | ||
| kanzure- | oh, you weren't able to open the chm file? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure- | maybe I'll go look at the pdf files. | 00:00 |
| fenn | i could open the .chm but not the .HLP | 00:01 |
| -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk | 00:02 | |
| fenn | heh no wonder it compressed so well.. the .hlp is full of .bmp files | 00:06 |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@adsl-76-231-253-78.dsl.chi2ca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 00:12 | |
| fenn | so, helpdeco and then catdoc *rtf gets the text from the .hlp file | 00:15 |
| fenn | still it's rather a pain compared to .html | 00:16 |
| -!- splicer [n=patrik@h8n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] | 01:03 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: boogles | 01:27 | |
| fenn | wow denno coil actually wrapped it all up with a rational explanation | 03:50 |
| bkero_ | dennou Coil was pretty meh imho | 04:20 |
| -!- bkero_ is now known as bkero | 04:20 | |
| -!- elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap | 05:41 | |
| -!- jm|space [n=jm@p57B9E53A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 05:57 | |
| -!- nsh [n=nsh@host86-141-176-82.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 06:23 | |
| -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 08:52 | |
| -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] | 09:33 | |
| -!- nsh [n=nsh@host86-133-35-168.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 09:55 | |
| -!- any71303670 [n=someone@75-121-63-49.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 09:57 | |
| -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-30-250.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 10:14 | |
| kanzure | fenn: I'm so scared | 10:19 |
| kanzure | why are these people talking about *hyperterminal* | 10:19 |
| kanzure | and Visual basic | 10:19 |
| kanzure | :( | 10:19 |
| -!- duzt [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 10:33 | |
| -!- elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap | 10:40 | |
| -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-76-235-67-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 10:57 | |
| kanzure | http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/ teensy USB development board | 11:04 |
| -!- jm|afk [n=jm@p57B9C51E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 11:09 | |
| kanzure | http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/ cline's blog | 11:12 |
| -!- jm|space [n=jm@p57B9E53A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | 11:14 | |
| -!- kanzure- [n=bryan@66.112.232.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 11:16 | |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@208-106-52-115.adsl.dynamic.shocking.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 12:14 | |
| -!- duzt [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 12:55 | |
| -!- any71303670 is now known as katsmeow | 12:56 | |
| ybit | it's not really diy-bio if it's students working at their school's lab :P | 13:19 |
| ybit | though i suppose there isn't a clear def. just yet | 13:20 |
| kanzure | isn't amateur supposed to be easy to define? "not necessarily a degree holder." | 13:45 |
| -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] | 13:46 | |
| -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-76-235-67-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] | 13:46 | |
| kanzure | hrm | 13:59 |
| kanzure | "the gene is viewed as a probability vector for the generation of the phenotype" | 13:59 |
| kanzure | http://mtt.sourceforge.net/ | 14:09 |
| kanzure | http://mtt.sourceforge.net/examples/Chemical_rep/node27.html | 14:11 |
| kanzure | hm @ pg 23 of the manual | 14:16 |
| kanzure | pg 42 | 14:17 |
| kanzure | pg 44 | 14:17 |
| kanzure | pg 50. seems to allow algebra. | 14:18 |
| kanzure | $MTT_COMPONENTS | 14:21 |
| -!- kanzure-- [n=bryan@w-mob400-128-62-214-54.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 15:29 | |
| -!- duzt [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 16:03 | |
| -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-80-52.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap | 16:03 | |
| genehacker | are you there kanzure | 16:04 |
| genehacker | are you there kanzure | 16:04 |
| kanzure-- | yes | 16:05 |
| genehacker | are you on your laptop? | 16:06 |
| fenn | this is kind of fun to play with - 2d constraints system; supposedly it can be extended to more dimensions | 16:09 |
| fenn | http://www.cq.cx/sketchflat.pl | 16:09 |
| -!- kanzure-- [n=bryan@w-mob400-128-62-214-54.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 17:00 | |
| xp_prg | http://stream1.streamq.net:8000/codecon.sdp | 17:10 |
| -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-80-52.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 17:21 | |
| bkero | Epic pirate win | 17:30 |
| bkero | http://thepiratebay.org/special/2009epicwinanyhow.php | 17:30 |
| -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:04 | |
| -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] | 18:05 | |
| -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:05 | |
| fenn | cis-action: how do you guys afford flying back and forth from boston/sf all the time? | 18:08 |
| fenn | do conference organizers pay for it? | 18:09 |
| cis-action | not this time | 18:09 |
| kanzure | I heart meredith | 18:09 |
| kanzure | fenn: I had a $125 plane ticket (one-way) to SF, so .. | 18:10 |
| cis-action | it was $300 on virgin america | 18:10 |
| cis-action | but "all the time" = once a year? | 18:10 |
| -!- PeerInfinity [n=someone@216.36.180.162] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:12 | |
| kanzure | ack | 18:12 |
| kanzure | wtf is this | 18:12 |
| kanzure | "just throw it in and figure out how your system works. then you can know how to do it later" - jake | 18:12 |
| kanzure | I'm increasingly less impressed with jake | 18:12 |
| fenn | i wonder if they think this counts as a design file http://static1.shopify.com/s/files/1/0001/7292/products/bbb_revd_pcb_800.jpg?1239866639 | 18:16 |
| * kanzure cries | 18:16 | |
| kanzure | the fact that it has typeset on there means that there's something that actually has the design data, or somebody's using a very old typewriter (which I doubt) | 18:17 |
| kanzure | but then people don't understand that it's that information which is important | 18:17 |
| kanzure | fenn: you know how I get that weird feeling when I talk with machinists? I mentioned it before .. I'm getting that feeling when talking to some of the biologists (or some of the people who claim to only be biologists) | 18:17 |
| fenn | 'the only thing you were born knowing how to do is shit and complain' | 18:18 |
| kanzure | it's the second of the two that I have perfected to an art | 18:19 |
| kanzure | fenn, did you see mtt.sf.net ? | 18:19 |
| kanzure | I found it in a 2007 phd thesis from an ADL fellow, he was using it for something about bond graphs, and physical quantities using some algebraic parser was implemented | 18:20 |
| kanzure | bond graphs show flows of energy/materials between components using algebra and some classification of physical quantities (which I've never fully understood) | 18:21 |
| fenn | 'someone with labview at their university could make a slick interface that would be totally useless for the rest of us peons' | 18:22 |
| fenn | thanks jake | 18:22 |
| kanzure | heh, that was jake too? | 18:22 |
| kanzure | that's hillarious. you really need to reply with that.. | 18:22 |
| kanzure | but there's some self-executable or something that he's talking about | 18:23 |
| kanzure | different proprietary systems do that. they package up just enough of their DLLs for you to not take advantage of it | 18:23 |
| kanzure | kinda like the python-to-exe stuff. | 18:23 |
| fenn | oh i missed the 'use the application builder to make a standalone app' part | 18:23 |
| kanzure | but still, it would suck | 18:23 |
| fenn | yeah | 18:23 |
| kanzure | it would probably be windows-only | 18:23 |
| kanzure | I'm so glad meredith has her head on straight | 18:23 |
| kanzure | hey, why are there ">" and "<" keys on my keyboard? these were here long before HTML became popular. | 18:27 |
| kanzure | fenn: here's what I'm thinking for the representation of a port-based constraint. there would be a port, it would have some ID, and there would be a list of options of all constraints that must be satisfied. but then multiple "options" for these. so, say there are 2 sets. setA, setB, for portA. one of those two sets must be satsified for 'compatibility' to say it is valid. | 18:32 |
| fenn | kanzure: they're for proper quoting in newsgroups :) | 18:33 |
| fenn | and shell redirection | 18:34 |
| kanzure | aha | 18:34 |
| kanzure | yes. good point, shell redirection has been around since before newsgroups | 18:34 |
| fenn | there really ought to be a down-caret, for symmetry | 18:34 |
| fenn | i guess 'v' works well enough | 18:35 |
| fenn | 2 sets of constraints? isnt this just getting into logic? | 18:36 |
| fenn | i wonder whether the PCR patent will be up by the time anyone actually builds a thermocycler | 18:38 |
| fenn | oh it's 17 years not 14 | 18:40 |
| fenn | hm. unfortunately there aren't any tutorials for heekscad | 18:50 |
| fenn | and you won't be able to print it out and give it to mister "git'r done" | 18:50 |
| -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [] | 18:54 | |
| -!- DrTread [n=chatzill@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:58 | |
| -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 18:59 | |
| kanzure | fenn: what? machinists would model it? why | 19:14 |
| kanzure | hey DrTread. | 19:14 |
| DrTread | hi, kanzure | 19:14 |
| kanzure | josh made a nice argument for ethernet over usb re: no switches for usb hubs. | 19:15 |
| DrTread | sorry...distracted...i'm sorting my resistor collection. <yawn> | 19:17 |
| kanzure | DrTread: you know, SMT rolls of resistors might be a better idea | 19:17 |
| DrTread | true. i'm already using a microscope & SMT ICs. | 19:17 |
| kanzure | heh | 19:17 |
| DrTread | it's hell to get old. 0.9 mm pitch chips just aren't as easy as DIPs | 19:18 |
| DrTread | when i was a kid, electronics were BIG and WE LIKED IT!!! | 19:18 |
| DrTread | i'm teaching myself how to control shift registers w/ Arduino | 19:21 |
| kanzure | how much space on the register? | 19:21 |
| DrTread | this particular one has 8 outputs, but can be daisy-chained | 19:23 |
| DrTread | http://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ShiftOut | 19:23 |
| -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [] | 19:24 | |
| DrTread | of course, i won't be happy until I have control over an 8 x 8 RGB array with 24-bit color | 19:25 |
| DrTread | why stop there... make that an 8 x 8 x 8 cube. | 19:25 |
| DrTread | idea: SMT breadboard made just like a regular breadboard, but with adhesive conductive pads for chips & resistors | 19:36 |
| fenn | kanzure: good luck getting a machinist to compile heekscad for your one 'drill some holes in this block' job | 19:39 |
| fenn | i am wondering how this gradient pcr stuff works | 19:42 |
| DrTread | sigh...i'd do it for you, if i just had CNC on my mill. | 19:42 |
| fenn | how do they ensure it's a linear gradient all the way across the block and not some weird sigmoid function | 19:43 |
| kanzure | fenn: what? why would a machinist be asked to use a CAD app? | 19:52 |
| kanzure | it's my understanding that machinists hate CAD | 19:52 |
| kanzure | and just want a 2D schematic | 19:52 |
| DrTread | IAWT | 19:52 |
| DrTread | how many holes do you need, and in what? | 19:54 |
| kanzure | DrTread: this is from the diybio discussion about an open source thermocycler | 19:55 |
| kanzure | I don't know if you're subscribed | 19:55 |
| DrTread | no, i don | 19:55 |
| DrTread | 't think i have | 19:55 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | 19:55 |
| fenn | yes that's correct; but there's no print schematic functionality in heekscad | 19:56 |
| kanzure | oh | 19:56 |
| kanzure | um. okay. guess I should throw that on the todo list | 19:56 |
| fenn | ya | 19:57 |
| fenn | i'm not sure how to go about it exactly | 19:57 |
| fenn | supposedly schematic drawing is another of those 'more art than science' things | 19:57 |
| kanzure | so, the solidworks version sucked entirely | 19:57 |
| kanzure | yes | 19:57 |
| kanzure | what you had to go through to get it right was worse than a painful death in microsoft word trying to do page layouts and such | 19:57 |
| kanzure | but a basic version would be something like, export all top/bottom/rear/right/left etc views | 19:58 |
| kanzure | and then jump to wireframe mode | 19:58 |
| kanzure | and add in the dimensions | 19:58 |
| fenn | eh.. i wish | 19:58 |
| kanzure | should it be more complicated? | 19:58 |
| fenn | for one, that only works if your part is more or less rectangular | 19:58 |
| kanzure | what shape would break it? | 19:59 |
| fenn | well, imagine you've got a geodesic dome | 19:59 |
| kanzure | if you need an isometric view port, that's easily possible with wireframe+rotation | 19:59 |
| fenn | heekscad has this concept of coordinate systems | 20:00 |
| fenn | i havent really used it much though | 20:00 |
| kanzure | heh, albert (the grad student) asked me for a coordinate graph for the gear visualizer and I had to tell him it wasn't going to happen in the next few days. | 20:01 |
| kanzure | thesis due like, tomorrow | 20:01 |
| kanzure | heh' | 20:01 |
| fenn | that's his thesis? that sucks | 20:01 |
| fenn | do you know of any arduino shields with buttons and character LCD? | 20:02 |
| DrTread | yes. how many buttons? i'm looking at one with 6 on my desk | 20:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: his thesis is gear train optimization, and I wrote him a visualizer that can now export to CAD. | 20:03 |
| fenn | 6 is enough | 20:03 |
| kanzure | or, it doesn't export yet, but it's at least now feasible | 20:03 |
| DrTread | i bought a couple of them from one of those Hong Kong eBay shops. | 20:03 |
| DrTread | i had to wait for chinese new year to be over before they shipped, tho. | 20:04 |
| fenn | seems like there would be some kind of super database for arduino shields | 20:04 |
| DrTread | adafruit forum is pretty good at that | 20:05 |
| kanzure | gasp, a forum I'm not registered to | 20:06 |
| DrTread | :-O end of world! | 20:06 |
| kanzure | oh, ladyada | 20:07 |
| DrTread | ...shift register-controlled LEDs happily blinking away.. | 20:07 |
| fenn | gah wtf were they thinking with the double row headers http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17_21&products_id=130 | 20:08 |
| kanzure | DrTread: shift register is spitting out the sequence for LED blinking? | 20:08 |
| DrTread | shift register gets its orders from arduino | 20:08 |
| DrTread | converts serial to parallel | 20:08 |
| kanzure | I thought a shift register was a memory element (a register) | 20:09 |
| fenn | what are you doing with LED's? | 20:09 |
| DrTread | watching the pretty lights blink. i just bought a bunch of shift registers from Goldmine; running tutorial code | 20:10 |
| fenn | hm ok | 20:10 |
| fenn | goldmine's prices suck btw | 20:10 |
| DrTread | suck for most stuff, but i bought these on sale. not so bad | 20:11 |
| fenn | especially considering they may or may not have what you want the next time you check | 20:11 |
| DrTread | heck, even DigiKey's prices suck compared to direct-from-manufacturer | 20:11 |
| fenn | i got a bunch of 8-segment displays from goldmine | 20:11 |
| DrTread | true enough. | 20:11 |
| fenn | wow the wiznet chip is only $5 | 20:12 |
| DrTread | i got a bag of 8 segments, cheap, if you don't mind what you get :) | 20:12 |
| DrTread | ...hooking up second shift register to output of first... more blinky lights on the way... | 20:13 |
| fenn | DrTread: are you multiplexing the LED's? | 20:14 |
| kanzure | what is crappy wood called? polyboard? | 20:14 |
| kanzure | not plywood.. | 20:14 |
| kanzure | particle board | 20:15 |
| DrTread | yes, sort of. i'm doing the arduino tutorial on shift registers | 20:15 |
| kanzure | get a large sheet of particle board, mount a 1000x1000 LED matrix, and nevermind .. this wouldn't make a good genome synthesizer | 20:15 |
| DrTread | http://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ShiftOut | 20:15 |
| kanzure | unless you have buckets and buckets of all sorts of fun chemicals.. | 20:15 |
| kanzure | !fun | 20:15 |
| DrTread | I love buckets of fun chemicals!!!! | 20:16 |
| kanzure | :) | 20:16 |
| kanzure | fenn: those images of the prototyping boards make me scream. that's something that software should be generating | 20:17 |
| kanzure | maybe it did. | 20:17 |
| fenn | DrTread: you could control all 16 LED's with one shift register | 20:17 |
| fenn | if you multiplex | 20:17 |
| fenn | exercise left for the student | 20:17 |
| fenn | hint: you need 4 transistors | 20:18 |
| DrTread | yes, and i could control 64 with 2 shift registers | 20:18 |
| DrTread | and 2 inverters | 20:18 |
| DrTread | well, 8 inverter gates | 20:18 |
| fenn | what are the inverters for? | 20:18 |
| fenn | sinking current? | 20:19 |
| DrTread | the first shift register sources power to the LEDs | 20:19 |
| DrTread | the second needs to sink current, but if it's a sourcing register... | 20:19 |
| DrTread | you got it :) | 20:19 |
| DrTread | you win a cookie | 20:19 |
| * kanzure grabs the cookie | 20:20 | |
| * fenn looks around at the cookie-less barren desolation | 20:20 | |
| fenn | wah! | 20:20 |
| DrTread | oh! the humanity! | 20:20 |
| DrTread | teh interwebz is such a cruel place | 20:20 |
| fenn | it's that cruel AI with faster reflexes than humanly possible | 20:20 |
| DrTread | is kanzure actually a bot? should we run the Voight-Kampf test on him? | 20:21 |
| fenn | he's already failed the turing test on multiple occasions | 20:21 |
| DrTread | and so have i | 20:21 |
| fenn | egads | 20:21 |
| fenn | i'm surrounded by bots | 20:22 |
| DrTread | kanzure, you are visiting your young nephew. he shows you his butterfly collection | 20:22 |
| DrTread | then he shows you his killing jar. | 20:22 |
| DrTread | what do you do? | 20:22 |
| kanzure | look at each butterfly? | 20:22 |
| DrTread | ok. | 20:22 |
| DrTread | now, you're in the desert. you see a tortise. | 20:22 |
| kanzure | "Because I am also a tortoise." | 20:23 |
| DrTread | you flip the tortoise on its tack | 20:23 |
| DrTread | bac | 20:23 |
| DrTread | k | 20:23 |
| fenn | FAIL | 20:23 |
| DrTread | it is dying in the hot sun... | 20:23 |
| DrTread | but you don't turn it over! | 20:23 |
| DrTread | WHY IS THAT, Leon... uh kanzure? | 20:23 |
| kanzure | "Because I am also a tortoise." | 20:23 |
| DrTread | ah. ok. they're just questions, kanzure. | 20:24 |
| kanzure | well presumably there was a cookie at the end of the questions | 20:24 |
| DrTread | Using only single words, tell me the good things you remember about fenn. | 20:24 |
| DrTread | replicants don't eat cookies. FAIL | 20:24 |
| kanzure | can I go back to my shell now? | 20:25 |
| DrTread | yes. that's all. thank you. :) | 20:25 |
| DrTread | :( i ran out of 220 ohm resistors. | 20:29 |
| fenn | just use 1k for everything | 20:30 |
| fenn | "we have standardized on 1k resistors" | 20:30 |
| DrTread | oh, i've got boxes & boxes of others. 330 ohm sounds good | 20:30 |
| fenn | DrTread: do you know about this fab lab thing yet? | 20:31 |
| DrTread | i use 2.2k for my "universal resistor" | 20:31 |
| fenn | you are mistaken, sir. 1k is the one true universal resistor | 20:32 |
| DrTread | what? the rules changed? | 20:32 |
| DrTread | why wasn't i notified??? | 20:32 |
| DrTread | fab lab? kanzure mentioned a little something about it. | 20:32 |
| fenn | eh, well, the latest revision to the universe virtual machine hasn't fully populated yet.. | 20:32 |
| fenn | so, les has a woodworking shop in this huge industrial space, and wants people to do cool stuff in it and pay a little bit of rent each so he doesn't have to be the single point of failure | 20:33 |
| fenn | i am certainly going to be doing lots of electronics there | 20:34 |
| DrTread | actually, 316 ohms would be the universal resistor, as 0.01 ohms is the smallest common value and 10M is the largest common value. | 20:34 |
| DrTread | take the square root, it's 316 | 20:34 |
| DrTread | yes, i'll move my lathe, MakerBot and eventual Epilog laser there. maybe? | 20:35 |
| fenn | wouldnt it be 3162.27 ohms? | 20:35 |
| DrTread | and my chem lab | 20:35 |
| fenn | oo a chem lab would be neat | 20:35 |
| DrTread | pffft. show me a resistor with more than 3 significant figures | 20:35 |
| fenn | there's already a tiny lathe, sorta | 20:36 |
| fenn | DrTread: did you know glassware is illegal in texas? | 20:36 |
| DrTread | mine's not tiny | 20:36 |
| fenn | so i hear, at least | 20:36 |
| DrTread | yes, sort of. | 20:36 |
| DrTread | i do have my own business, tho. | 20:36 |
| DrTread | note to self: talk to local lawyer | 20:37 |
| fenn | is this chem lab for doing professional stuffs or just personal tinkering mostly? | 20:39 |
| DrTread | a little of each. | 20:39 |
| DrTread | i'd love to have a REAL lab, but there's only so much i'm willing to do in my garage. | 20:41 |
| fenn | maybe we could stick you over in the corner with the vent hole | 20:41 |
| DrTread | that'd be nice :) | 20:42 |
| fenn | no plumbing though | 20:42 |
| DrTread | **sobs miserably** | 20:44 |
| DrTread | ok, last wires connected to blinkey light thing | 20:45 |
| fenn | maybe it's not a bad idea to just run a drain pipe, electricity, and ethernet all along the back wall | 20:47 |
| DrTread | depends on how stinky Austin is about what goes down the drain | 20:48 |
| fenn | hopefully you won't be dumping anything that dissolves PVC | 20:48 |
| fenn | i wonder why the hong kong arduino clones won't ship to italy | 20:50 |
| DrTread | because they don't pay for the Arduino trademark, but use it anyway? | 20:51 |
| DrTread | ah, satisfying. i've got a dual cylon thing going on with the leds | 20:53 |
| -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@208-106-52-115.adsl.dynamic.shocking.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] | 20:54 | |
| kanzure | so, fenn, | 20:55 |
| kanzure | for constraint checking | 20:55 |
| kanzure | should we have "20 N" and then a separate attribute saying "input"/"output" | 20:56 |
| kanzure | or how should that work? | 20:56 |
| kanzure | two connected pipes might be 3000 psi rated, but one might actually be input and one might be output | 20:56 |
| kanzure | i.e., a hole that is ok with 3000 psi is different from a tube connection that likes 3000 psi | 20:56 |
| kanzure | (I think) | 20:56 |
| kanzure | does that even make sense? | 20:58 |
| kanzure | so, vectors more or less. | 20:58 |
| kanzure | and we could call the method "vector matching" since it sounds like it conveys the most information about what I'm doing | 20:59 |
| kanzure | although it's not really just a vector. hrm. this is hard to visualize | 20:59 |
| kanzure | it's more like a giant 3D region but with a direction of 'flow' from the port | 21:00 |
| kanzure | http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JMDEDB000130000004041102000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes | 21:03 |
| kanzure | oh, it's campbell. I work for that guy. hrm. | 21:03 |
| DrTread | oooh! genetic algo! | 21:04 |
| kanzure | sort of. | 21:05 |
| kanzure | DrTread: so what I'm trying to figure out is what sort of data structure I should use to compare wehtehr or not two lists of acceptable physical quantities, and their domains, or something, are compatible between two faces between two CAD models | 21:05 |
| kanzure | *whether | 21:05 |
| kanzure | here's that paper: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Bond%20graph%20based%20automated%20modeling%20for%20computer-aided%20design%20of%20dynamic%20systems.pdf | 21:06 |
| DrTread | your brain? | 21:07 |
| DrTread | or is it too big? | 21:07 |
| DrTread | the data, not your brain | 21:07 |
| kanzure | what? | 21:07 |
| DrTread | there are so many ways of describing the same thing. | 21:07 |
| DrTread | your brain might be capable of comprehending such a thing. | 21:07 |
| kanzure | there are many ways, that's true | 21:08 |
| kanzure | I need to pick one | 21:08 |
| DrTread | randomly pick a point in 3-D space, plug it in to the model & see if you get the same answer back. | 21:09 |
| DrTread | now repeat that enough times to satisfy your curiosity. | 21:09 |
| DrTread | opening sentence of Wu, et al. says it all: "...one of the most demanding and yet poorly understood..." | 21:10 |
| kanzure | in some cases you label free body diagrams with a vector saying that maybe a stream is constantly flowing at some rate or something | 21:16 |
| kanzure | is there some physical quantity that is described by something that has more components than a vector? | 21:16 |
| kanzure | i.e., a tuple? | 21:16 |
| DrTread | a tensor? | 21:18 |
| kanzure | thank you | 21:18 |
| DrTread | np | 21:19 |
| kanzure | knew I was forgetting something :) | 21:19 |
| fenn | clever design on that arduino LCD + button thing | 21:19 |
| DrTread | please feel free to study tensor calculus. | 21:19 |
| kanzure | okay. | 21:19 |
| kanzure | DrTread: I thought I was so smart when I came up with multivariable calculus in high school | 21:19 |
| DrTread | i never did. big regret. | 21:19 |
| kanzure | then I entered the class in college and became sad :/ | 21:19 |
| DrTread | you invented it? WOW!!! | 21:19 |
| fenn | it only uses one pin (an analog input) by adding up resistors with power of two | 21:19 |
| kanzure | what? | 21:19 |
| kanzure | DrTread: probably the wrong word | 21:19 |
| kanzure | but sitting around in class and being bored and such, jotting down some notes | 21:20 |
| DrTread | ooof. | 21:20 |
| DrTread | yes, clever little LCDs. | 21:20 |
| kanzure | it seems I for some reason chose to come up with partial differentials based off of vector components for some reason, i.e. like the gradient function | 21:20 |
| DrTread | I use the module to control a camera timer for time-lapse photography | 21:20 |
| DrTread | oh, dear. gradient diffusion. graduate level stuff there. | 21:21 |
| DrTread | bite off more than you can chew, did you? | 21:21 |
| DrTread | i very much want to understand this. i'm quite interested in studying particle dynamics in flame jets | 21:21 |
| kanzure | I was recently reading a paper by whitesides about gradient diffusion, but no, I don't think that's what it was | 21:22 |
| DrTread | whitesides, as in George? | 21:22 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:22 |
| kanzure | he had some microfluidic circuits for generating gradients for particles | 21:22 |
| DrTread | he's my academic grandfather | 21:22 |
| DrTread | i studied under a student of his | 21:22 |
| kanzure | blah. why can't he be *my* academic grandfather | 21:22 |
| DrTread | he can. | 21:22 |
| kanzure | how? | 21:23 |
| DrTread | study under a student of his. :D | 21:23 |
| DrTread | apprentice yourself | 21:23 |
| * kanzure opens up his googlestalk app | 21:23 | |
| DrTread | it will amuse you to know that I have an Erdös number of 5. | 21:24 |
| DrTread | which gives me cred in the mathematics world. | 21:24 |
| DrTread | thanks to G. Whitesides & his daughter | 21:24 |
| fenn | yeah but what's your bacon number | 21:25 |
| DrTread | i've never found that. | 21:25 |
| DrTread | there are a very few people with both | 21:25 |
| fenn | nah they just don't know it | 21:25 |
| kanzure | I have a whole folder for whitesides stuff | 21:26 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/whitesides/ | 21:26 |
| kanzure | hm, that's not everything I've read by him though | 21:26 |
| DrTread | The lowest known Erdős–Bacon number is three for Daniel Kleitman, a mathematics professor at MIT; his Erdős number is 1 and his Bacon number is 2. | 21:26 |
| kanzure | heh, maybe that's the guy to stalk. | 21:26 |
| DrTread | hehe | 21:26 |
| kanzure | why can't we have a kanzure-number ? | 21:26 |
| DrTread | i have BOXES of whitesides papers | 21:27 |
| kanzure | will you give me these boxes? please please please? | 21:27 |
| fenn | i think he means dead trees | 21:27 |
| kanzure | compulsive hoarding | 21:27 |
| DrTread | after you stole the cookie from fenn? | 21:27 |
| kanzure | I said I was soo-rhey | 21:27 |
| DrTread | oh, ok. | 21:27 |
| DrTread | but i'm a compulsive hoarder, too. | 21:28 |
| DrTread | say... | 21:28 |
| kanzure | have you heard of the Collyer brothers? | 21:28 |
| DrTread | how would you like a house full of interesting crap, er, stuff? | 21:28 |
| kanzure | heh | 21:28 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyer_brothers | 21:28 |
| DrTread | the game designers? | 21:28 |
| kanzure | see the link | 21:29 |
| DrTread | already there | 21:29 |
| DrTread | oooh, cool!!! | 21:30 |
| DrTread | something to aspire to! | 21:30 |
| DrTread | oh, excuse me. something to which i aspire! | 21:30 |
| kanzure | the trick is finding today's modern equivalent of a Collyer brother | 21:31 |
| kanzure | because that fellow is surely going to be interesting | 21:32 |
| DrTread | ooof. 103 tons of garbage. | 21:32 |
| kanzure | "garbage" is relative | 21:33 |
| kanzure | I don't like throwing stuff away either :/ | 21:33 |
| DrTread | yes. but even I don't have tons of newspapers...whatever a "newspaper" is | 21:33 |
| kanzure | I think it's an old laxative. | 21:33 |
| kanzure | something associated with bathrooms. | 21:33 |
| DrTread | hmm... runs to wikipedia to research.... | 21:34 |
| DrTread | i've been watching 16 blinkey lights for over an hour now. time to do something interesting with them | 21:35 |
| kanzure | DrTread: ever been mesmorized by a leaf for a few hours? | 21:36 |
| DrTread | of course! | 21:36 |
| DrTread | particularly under a microscope | 21:36 |
| kanzure | hurm. maybe I need to do some coordinate transformation magic now. | 21:42 |
| DrTread | matrices are your friend | 21:42 |
| fenn | DrTread: POV display | 21:43 |
| * kanzure nods. | 21:43 | |
| fenn | "just add accelerometer" | 21:44 |
| DrTread | right. freaky stuff, that. soon, i'll be wiring up my office desk (frosted glass top) to display weather information | 21:45 |
| kanzure | where was it that I was seeing lamps that would follow you around your office desk? | 21:45 |
| DrTread | another plan in the works is an art project, where I log my GPS position & acceleration 24/7 for a week | 21:46 |
| DrTread | in your dreams, kanzure? | 21:46 |
| DrTread | another idea i've had is to have pressure sensors on each leg of my dining room chairs, transmit the data to the table, which then turns on lights in response to how each diner is balanced on his chair | 21:48 |
| fenn | kanzure: mit media lab | 21:49 |
| DrTread | i think you're right. there was a conversation following table, too | 21:50 |
| fenn | http://robotic.media.mit.edu/projects/robots/aur/overview/overview.html | 21:50 |
| fenn | video http://www.media.mit.edu/?p=115 | 21:51 |
| DrTread | brb... | 21:51 |
| fenn | sigh.. theatre dweebs | 21:52 |
| fenn | there was another video where they showed how it might actually be useful | 21:53 |
| kanzure | erm, maybe it's relative coordinate translations that i need | 22:17 |
| kanzure | so I want to somehow define regions to which a label applies in a CAD model | 22:18 |
| kanzure | and once this is somehow done, some way to then set coordinates relative to each other between models | 22:18 |
| kanzure | erm. suppose you have two models, partA and partB, each of them has a sub-model-region thingy defined as a long cylindrical tube (of equal sizes)-- one being an input interface, the other an output interface | 22:19 |
| kanzure | and then some way to position overlapping regions (the regions defined within the interfaces-region-thingy) | 22:19 |
| kanzure | meh, I need better words | 22:19 |
| fenn | you want to define the interface volume | 22:22 |
| kanzure | once I do that though, I need a way to define .. erm. | 22:38 |
| kanzure | so when the interference checking / collision detection takes place | 22:38 |
| kanzure | the two parts need to be placed in the correct position | 22:38 |
| kanzure | so if it's just two faces, that's easy- you just set all of the x coords or something to be the same thing | 22:38 |
| kanzure | but if it's not just two faces, and instead it's two strange bodies ... | 22:39 |
| kanzure | what then? | 22:39 |
| kanzure | center of mass? | 22:39 |
| -!- jm|afk [n=jm@p57B9C51E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] | 22:39 | |
| fenn | i dont know what you're asking | 22:43 |
| kanzure | how do you position them. | 22:48 |
| kanzure | given a boundary definition that makes up the "interface" of some arbitrary shape. | 22:48 |
| kanzure | or possibly some 2D geometry (not a shape) (but I figure it's still specified in the same way- basically a model/object, which is fine) | 22:48 |
| fenn | i'm sure there are lots of ways to think of how it could go wrong, but i'd just do collision detection and contact face | 22:56 |
| kanzure | contact face? but what if it's not two faces | 22:57 |
| fenn | uh, like some jellyfish dance? | 22:58 |
| kanzure | hum I guess it always has to be two faces | 22:58 |
| -!- fenn_ [n=fenn@cpe-72-177-52-180.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 22:58 | |
| kanzure | kind of like imagining two pieces of paper being glued together | 22:58 |
| kanzure | hum I guess it always has to be two faces | 22:58 |
| kanzure | what's with the random logouts? | 22:59 |
| fenn_ | les stepped on the router i guess | 22:59 |
| -!- fenn [n=fenn@cpe-72-177-52-180.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] | 22:59 | |
| -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn | 22:59 | |
| DrTread | looks like i missed lots of random 3D geometry banter | 23:01 |
| kanzure | nope, we're still bantering | 23:01 |
| kanzure | or at least I am | 23:01 |
| DrTread | what's the subject of these colliding faces? | 23:01 |
| kanzure | part mating | 23:01 |
| kanzure | in automatic assembly CAD stuff | 23:01 |
| DrTread | ah. | 23:01 |
| kanzure | "Analysis of potential mating trajectories and grasp sites" was a good paper on this topic | 23:02 |
| fenn | normally it would just be 'tagged' and you assume the interfaces fit | 23:02 |
| kanzure | and "port-compatibility" (erm, the full title escapes me) | 23:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: my system is better than that, you're making it too simple | 23:02 |
| DrTread | ok. carry on, then. | 23:02 |
| kanzure | just because you say they are the same doesn't tell the computer how to smash 'em together | 23:03 |
| kanzure | in the back of my mind I'm thinking of something like "control points" | 23:03 |
| kanzure | but that only works if the shapes are precisely the same | 23:03 |
| kanzure | i.e., match opposite control points or something | 23:03 |
| fenn | i guess you'd have to specify the position and orientation of the interface | 23:03 |
| kanzure | right | 23:03 |
| kanzure | so that's what I was saying originally | 23:03 |
| kanzure | the position and shape is defined almost as an entire CAD model itself | 23:03 |
| fenn | so there'd be a datum point for the whole interface | 23:04 |
| kanzure | or just a region of points | 23:04 |
| fenn | nah, just one point | 23:04 |
| kanzure | but how do you tell it how to slide another region of points (another "boundary" interface thingy) | 23:04 |
| fenn | six numbers | 23:04 |
| kanzure | what? one point?? | 23:04 |
| fenn | yes, all the other crap is in the interface class | 23:04 |
| kanzure | what? | 23:04 |
| fenn | it gets defined somewhere, so you don't have to redefine it every time | 23:04 |
| kanzure | what gets defined somewhere? | 23:04 |
| fenn | the interface geometry | 23:05 |
| kanzure | but why is it at that one point? | 23:05 |
| kanzure | so all interfaces are defined as a single point in the models? hrm.. | 23:05 |
| fenn | because you only need one point to define the relative position of the interface wrt the rest of the cad model | 23:05 |
| kanzure | okay, that's not terrible. | 23:05 |
| kanzure | I can work that. | 23:06 |
| kanzure | so I was thinking originally that there would be faces, lines, points, and then arbitrary regions. but I guess there could be some fuzzy classification method for classifying children classes of the interface class? | 23:08 |
| DrTread | FWIW, see Bourg, David M., "Physics for Game Developers", O'Reilly, 2002. | 23:12 |
| DrTread | game engines spending lots of time detecting collisions. even the best of them (GTA5 on the PS3) fail often. | 23:14 |
| DrTread | with that, i'll sign off for the evening. | 23:15 |
| kanzure | yeah | 23:27 |
| kanzure | it's just been so long since I've written a game engine | 23:27 |
| -!- DrTread [n=chatzill@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] | 23:33 | |
| -!- fenn_ [n=fenn@cpe-72-177-52-180.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:39 | |
| -!- fenn [n=fenn@cpe-72-177-52-180.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] | 23:40 | |
| -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn | 23:40 | |
| -!- any29470031 [n=someone@75-120-16-254.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:42 | |
| -!- DrTread [n=chatzill@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:52 | |
| -!- DrTread_ [n=irchon@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:58 | |
| -!- katsmeow [n=someone@75-121-63-49.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 23:59 | |
| DrTread_ | whoohoo! iPhone client for irc! | 23:59 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
