| --- Day changed Sat May 09 2009 | ||
| kanzure- | ah yes, the classic FUCK folder: http://heybryan.org/books/ellingtonlab/Lord_Vader_stuff/FUCK/ | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure- | hm, this is interesting | 00:06 |
| kanzure- | http://heybryan.org/books/ellingtonlab/Lord_Vader_stuff/From%20Scott/cantilever%20papers/ | 00:06 |
| kanzure- | see this: http://heybryan.org/books/ellingtonlab/Lord_Vader_stuff/From%20Scott/cantilever%20papers/early%20Si%20cantilever.pdf | 00:07 |
| kanzure- | "early Si cantilever" | 00:07 |
| kanzure- | based off of diffraction grating. | 00:07 |
| kanzure- | interesting | 00:09 |
| kanzure- | http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/pioneer.htm | 00:09 |
| kanzure- | Pioneer Organisms Nominated for Terraforming | 00:09 |
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| kanzure | server is going down until tuesday (maybe) | 09:32 |
| fenn | moving? | 09:33 |
| kanzure | yes | 09:33 |
| --- Log closed Sat May 09 09:36:26 2009 | ||
| --- Log opened Sat May 23 23:01:57 2009 | ||
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| fenn | what up my leibnizzle | 23:02 |
| kanzure | yee | 23:02 |
| kanzure | I sincerely apologize for my mediawiki installation. (seriously) | 23:03 |
| fenn | anyone have an old laptop they dont use? | 23:05 |
| kanzure | yes | 23:05 |
| fenn | is it large and heavy? | 23:05 |
| kanzure | yes | 23:05 |
| fenn | hmm | 23:05 |
| ybit | :P | 23:05 |
| ybit | i don't like large and heavy either | 23:05 |
| kanzure | large screen, full keyboard. | 23:06 |
| fenn | i never understood why you'd make a large laptop | 23:06 |
| * ybit is considering purchasing the samsung n120 | 23:06 | |
| kanzure | it's as loud as all fuck though | 23:06 |
| ybit | ..after upgrading this old machine | 23:06 |
| kanzure | hyperthreaded pentium 4 on a laptop <-- bad idea | 23:06 |
| kanzure | but it works pretty well | 23:06 |
| kanzure | just loud :) | 23:06 |
| kanzure | and lacking a power adapter at the moment (~$40+ shipping) | 23:06 |
| ybit | :) | 23:06 |
| kanzure | er, $40 +shipping | 23:06 |
| fenn | my laptop is slow and mechanically falling apart (fatigue cracks in the plastic frame, solder cracking in usb and sound ports) | 23:07 |
| kanzure | no mechanical failure as far as I can tell | 23:07 |
| fenn | but it's small and i know what it can do and can't do | 23:07 |
| kanzure | I have multiple power adapters for this model, but they are all broken in their special ways | 23:07 |
| kanzure | I fixed them a few times each, but they just died beyond my repair skills | 23:07 |
| fenn | i wish all laptops had a 12V 5mm barrel connector | 23:07 |
| kanzure | yeesh. no kidding. | 23:08 |
| ybit | i was saving up for this machine: went to purchase it yesterday and found out it's out of stock for good: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4527727&Sku=B69-0039 | 23:08 |
| kanzure | that old laptop takes 120 V | 23:08 |
| ybit | Asus M3N78 PRO 8GB AMD Barebone Kit - AMD Phenom X4 9500 Quad Core Retail, 8GB DDR2-800 Corsair, 750GB SATA2, Clear Side Mid-Tower, 650W PSU | 23:08 |
| ybit | for only $400 | 23:08 |
| kanzure | ybit: god hates you | 23:08 |
| ybit | damn you Tux! | 23:08 |
| fenn | i would probably just get a netbook but i'm trying to make this wearable thing with a beagle and myvu | 23:08 |
| ybit | or Zeus, whomever your god may be.. | 23:09 |
| kanzure | netbook keyboards suck | 23:09 |
| fenn | the functionality would overlap too much and it seems like giving up to me, which i dont want to do | 23:09 |
| ybit | but the n120 is fullsize laptop | 23:09 |
| ybit | ..keyboard | 23:09 |
| kanzure | by "fullsize" do you mean "fits real human hands" or "well, it has all of the keys. if you squint." | 23:09 |
| ybit | first option | 23:09 |
| ybit | it's why i am considering it | 23:09 |
| ybit | i like netbooks for their weight but can't stand the keyboards | 23:10 |
| kanzure | what's so hard about including the extra plastic | 23:10 |
| fenn | the whole point is that they're small and cute | 23:10 |
| kanzure | am I small and cute? | 23:10 |
| ybit | :P | 23:10 |
| fenn | is that a trick question? | 23:10 |
| kanzure | don't know | 23:11 |
| kanzure | um, so, that 20 ft ethernet cable actually wraps around my whole apartment | 23:11 |
| kanzure | so I have a box in the other room wired up :) | 23:11 |
| kanzure | just need to get the server up. | 23:11 |
| fenn | did you see that spam to diybio? | 23:19 |
| ybit | yeah | 23:19 |
| fenn | dunno bout y'all but i'm skeered | 23:20 |
| ybit | need an add-on to the browser which shows a preview of all links in a sidebar.. i know it exists somewhere. problem is, you are giving your i.p. address away, would need some type of proxy as an middle man | 23:20 |
| ybit | s/an/a | 23:20 |
| kanzure | do you mean to om? | 23:21 |
| ybit | i was thinking of diybio a few days ago | 23:21 |
| fenn | the spam to om in the last 5 mins or so just reminded me, that's all | 23:21 |
| fenn | http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/browse_thread/thread/8ec765a9b681f6ef | 23:22 |
| kanzure | fenn: what do I do since diybio is becoming a trainwreck | 23:22 |
| kanzure | it seems that I can't write XML protocols fast enough to turn the train around | 23:23 |
| fenn | normally in this situation i'd say "gather together the people you trust and who are competent and start a new group" but the smart competent people are just as caught up in it as everyone else | 23:23 |
| kanzure | even the people that claim to know XML or know how to "get stuff done" aren't wanting to get stuff done | 23:23 |
| fenn | oh, that train wreck | 23:23 |
| kanzure | well I'm extrapolating that to the broader situation | 23:23 |
| fenn | thought you meant the ethics/self-imposed regulation trainwreck | 23:23 |
| kanzure | I think that package maintainers for diybio would fix a lot of things | 23:23 |
| kanzure | right | 23:23 |
| kanzure | package maintenance and a package system would solve a bunch of that bullshit | 23:24 |
| fenn | would it? | 23:24 |
| kanzure | if people understood it.. | 23:24 |
| fenn | why do you think so? | 23:24 |
| kanzure | instead of making diybio a super-organization that will Solve Everything Ever, | 23:24 |
| kanzure | it would have a very particular architecture | 23:24 |
| fenn | hmm | 23:24 |
| fenn | what if people start making bird watching packages? | 23:24 |
| kanzure | apt-get install goggles goggles-docs ? | 23:25 |
| fenn | it was a metaphor | 23:25 |
| kanzure | there are indeed criteria for inclusion of packages into debian, for instance | 23:25 |
| kanzure | and many distributions pop up because of disputes on those notes | 23:25 |
| fenn | supposedly bird-watching is "just as diybio as synthetic bioengineering" | 23:25 |
| kanzure | but ultimately that's just for the main repositories or branding or whatever | 23:25 |
| kanzure | it's not like the packages won't exist elsewhere | 23:25 |
| fenn | yeah but how do you prevent mission creep in your own organization | 23:26 |
| kanzure | fork()ing. | 23:26 |
| fenn | without becoming a tyrannical dictator | 23:26 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 23:26 |
| fenn | sort of silly to start off something by forking | 23:26 |
| kanzure | well, in the case of debian you get to throw up your own small mirrors for your packages or whatever | 23:27 |
| fenn | 1) fork 2) ??? 3) PROFIT! | 23:27 |
| kanzure | or just upload a file to a server somewhere (the .deb file) | 23:27 |
| kanzure | 1) fork 2) include the package in the main repository, except under your brand 3) let people use those repositories. | 23:27 |
| kanzure | now it's accessible, yay for !censorship | 23:27 |
| fenn | unfortunately the debian repository structure makes setting up your own branch a pain in the ass | 23:27 |
| kanzure | really? I thought there was a script for that | 23:28 |
| fenn | oh. maybe there is | 23:28 |
| fenn | i've just seen lots of developer aggravation in the emc project about repositories | 23:28 |
| fenn | i mean really there shouldnt be such a thing as a package maintainer | 23:29 |
| fenn | people should submit patches to a package for distribution which get applied by distribution maintainers | 23:29 |
| * fenn wonders how to explain that | 23:30 | |
| fenn | all the day to day package maintainer stuff shouldnt exist, is what i'm trying to say | 23:30 |
| kanzure | yeah, sure. | 23:30 |
| kanzure | I'm not a debian developer so I don't actually know how debian backend runs | 23:30 |
| kanzure | but apparently they have their own servers and are really strict about their PGP keys and rings and such | 23:30 |
| fenn | well that makes sense if you think about it | 23:31 |
| kanzure | the day-to-day stuff, like patch application, should be automatic (although maybe after review) | 23:31 |
| kanzure | dont' know how to word that in terms of non-centralized repos though | 23:31 |
| fenn | peer review, basically | 23:31 |
| fenn | hm | 23:31 |
| kanzure | with centralized hosting of the patches or something? | 23:31 |
| kanzure | how does that work with git? | 23:31 |
| kanzure | when there's 40 different options for patches at a certain level in the history | 23:31 |
| fenn | someone you trust has to actually look at the code and say 'yes its good and wont infect you with CIA spyware' | 23:32 |
| kanzure | or something | 23:32 |
| * kanzure infects CIA. haha, russia! | 23:32 | |
| fenn | in russia you infect cia spyware! erm. yeah. | 23:32 |
| kanzure | I'm sure they already do that :/ | 23:33 |
| * fenn exhibits meme-induced twitches | 23:33 | |
| fenn | so anyway back to diybio | 23:33 |
| kanzure | heh | 23:33 |
| fenn | how do we get people to actually do something productive? | 23:34 |
| kanzure | make a super secret group of super-awesome people that everyone wants to be a part of? | 23:34 |
| fenn | cowell said he was writing something up in xml | 23:34 |
| kanzure | that's how somethingawful-types usually do it | 23:34 |
| kanzure | I doubt it | 23:34 |
| kanzure | he said it, but I don't trust him | 23:34 |
| fenn | me either, because i saw what your example file was and the semantic structure behind it was nowhere near developed | 23:35 |
| kanzure | right | 23:35 |
| kanzure | there was also a ton of shit wrong with the pcr protocol content itself in there | 23:35 |
| kanzure | (which nobody called me on) | 23:35 |
| fenn | you're basically trying to create a new standard, but the amount of consideration that should go into it is too much for one person | 23:36 |
| kanzure | sure | 23:36 |
| kanzure | it needs lots of examples that break it or something | 23:36 |
| fenn | and there should be some kind of validation scripts like w3c provides | 23:36 |
| kanzure | (examples which I don't know about) | 23:36 |
| fenn | is that just unit testing? | 23:37 |
| kanzure | well, xml validation stuff is simple, but that sort of validation doesn't tell me anything about whether or not it biologically makes sense | 23:37 |
| kanzure | yeah | 23:37 |
| fenn | ok | 23:37 |
| fenn | so semantic validation | 23:37 |
| fenn | i know semantic is your favorite word | 23:37 |
| kanzure | there are all sorts of XML checkers out there. isn't a big deal .. | 23:37 |
| fenn | you say that about everything | 23:37 |
| kanzure | "here's the DTD. here's a file. does it work?" | 23:37 |
| kanzure | you kidding? | 23:38 |
| kanzure | load something up in firefox | 23:38 |
| kanzure | it parses and complains at you | 23:38 |
| fenn | 'moon colonization? not a big deal, see <linkdump>' | 23:38 |
| kanzure | (if there's something broken) | 23:38 |
| fenn | just because it's been talked about doesnt mean its not a big deal | 23:38 |
| * kanzure actually does have a moon colonization linkdump | 23:38 | |
| kanzure | but I've *done it* | 23:38 |
| fenn | i have yet to see a semantic system that doesnt totally suck | 23:38 |
| kanzure | it's not as useful as you think it is | 23:38 |
| kanzure | go write an XML file with a deliberate error in it | 23:39 |
| fenn | DTD is just syntax | 23:39 |
| kanzure | load it up in firefox | 23:39 |
| kanzure | yeah | 23:39 |
| fenn | i'm talking about semantic errors | 23:39 |
| kanzure | what? | 23:39 |
| fenn | you understand the difference? it's a computer programming thing | 23:39 |
| fenn | a syntactically correct program will run | 23:39 |
| fenn | a semantically correct program will do the wrong thing | 23:39 |
| kanzure | sure | 23:39 |
| fenn | er, incorrect* | 23:39 |
| kanzure | bah, we have no magic "it does the right thing" program-checker | 23:39 |
| kanzure | but we don't need that really | 23:40 |
| fenn | see my sentence was semantically incorrect but syntactically correct | 23:40 |
| fenn | ah but we do need that | 23:40 |
| kanzure | yes, but it's possible to progress without it | 23:40 |
| kanzure | it's possible to progress without ai | 23:41 |
| fenn | it's not ai | 23:41 |
| kanzure | is it friendly? | 23:41 |
| fenn | it's insurance against stupid lazy humans | 23:41 |
| fenn | who dont give a shit about whether it's right or not | 23:41 |
| kanzure | maybe you could give me an example of what you mean | 23:41 |
| kanzure | do you mean heuristic checking of "common bad shit in a protocol that should be flagged" | 23:42 |
| fenn | ok say you have a protocol that says 'add 2 microliters DNA to 50 microliters water' | 23:42 |
| fenn | now it sounds ok to lazy human, because they have common-sense filters | 23:42 |
| fenn | but you can't add 2 microliters to 50 microliters | 23:42 |
| fenn | you have to add 2 microliters to a test tube or something | 23:42 |
| kanzure | is this as terrible an example as I suspect it is? | 23:42 |
| fenn | yes | 23:42 |
| fenn | that's really just a syntax error | 23:43 |
| kanzure | ok. how about acid to water or water to acid. | 23:43 |
| fenn | those are just rules of thumb (heuristics) | 23:43 |
| fenn | hmm | 23:43 |
| kanzure | anyway. | 23:44 |
| fenn | anyway my point is people will sneak all kinds of garbage past your syntactic checker if they can get away with it | 23:44 |
| kanzure | back to the social issues for a quick second (as much as I hate to bother) | 23:44 |
| ybit | kanzure, you're lab equipment list on mediawiki is about the best list i can find atm for wetlab equipment | 23:44 |
| kanzure | ybit: isn't that sad. :( | 23:44 |
| fenn | it's something to be proud of :) | 23:44 |
| fenn | social issues | 23:45 |
| kanzure | there's also /instrumentation/instru.html | 23:45 |
| kanzure | fenn: right. | 23:45 |
| kanzure | like, what the hell are we to do about diybio | 23:45 |
| kanzure | I mean, I don't know if my participation with those people is beneficial at this point | 23:45 |
| kanzure | simply because they're not interested in listening | 23:46 |
| kanzure | or seem to never have been. | 23:46 |
| kanzure | or interested in helping out / doing work / taking initiative / asking questions, or whatever | 23:46 |
| fenn | some of that is probably due to your knee-jerk writing | 23:46 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 23:46 |
| fenn | most of it is probably wishful thinking and laziness | 23:46 |
| kanzure | should I be more descriptive? | 23:46 |
| kanzure | I mean, I hate to write a whole god damn tutorial on "how to understand what the fuck XML is" | 23:47 |
| kanzure | there are so many tutorials already out there .. this shouldn't be my job. | 23:47 |
| fenn | well, sometimes you sort of blow off a lot of reasonable concerns with 'just write a xml file' | 23:47 |
| fenn | and meanwhile there is no standard for them to follow or even suggestion of forming a working group to define a standard etc | 23:48 |
| kanzure | wtf | 23:48 |
| kanzure | suggestion to form a working group? | 23:48 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with diybio? | 23:48 |
| fenn | diybio is too general | 23:48 |
| fenn | standards are almost always written by special-purpose working groups | 23:48 |
| kanzure | how many groups should I initiate per how many thoughts I generate? | 23:48 |
| fenn | well, i wish this thing already existed.. i mean where did all those billions of dollars go anyway? | 23:49 |
| kanzure | should I be creating groups for different projects, or what | 23:49 |
| kanzure | it's not like you people have a hard enough time keeping up with me as it is | 23:49 |
| kanzure | ("you people" == everyone who is not me.) | 23:49 |
| fenn | take the pcr thermocycler for instance | 23:50 |
| fenn | now only certain people are really interested in that but it was discussed at length on the diybio list | 23:50 |
| kanzure | yeah | 23:50 |
| fenn | however there are no documents that anyone could refer to if they were interested in picking it up later, unless they wanted to dig through huge piles of email | 23:51 |
| fenn | so that's one advantage of forming a special purpose group, you tend to generate 'deliverables' | 23:51 |
| fenn | instead of dragging discussion on forever | 23:51 |
| kanzure | hm. | 23:51 |
| fenn | or at least generating deliverables ought to be a focus | 23:51 |
| fenn | whereas diybio isn't set up to have an end product at all | 23:51 |
| kanzure | well usually that's because people bark at everyone else for deadlines or stuff to write about I guess | 23:51 |
| kanzure | I see. | 23:52 |
| fenn | xml protocols is just more 'interesting teatime discussion material' | 23:52 |
| kanzure | in the debian community they actually have some social protocols for talking between developer groups | 23:52 |
| kanzure | there are way too many subgroups or whatever, | 23:52 |
| kanzure | but there are ways for developers to ask questions of each other in some formal manner | 23:52 |
| kanzure | and things that happen if nobody replies | 23:52 |
| kanzure | or whatever | 23:52 |
| fenn | i wish the debian structure were more transparent | 23:52 |
| fenn | that graph/diagram was pretty funny | 23:52 |
| kanzure | I have no idea why it works btw. | 23:53 |
| kanzure | maybe they have some magic herd of gnus | 23:53 |
| kanzure | so anyway | 23:53 |
| kanzure | I don't know how to make something with more structure without bullshitting though | 23:54 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Debian-organigram.png | 23:54 |
| kanzure | because we all know how terrible I am at making up deadlines | 23:54 |
| kanzure | wtf | 23:54 |
| fenn | deadlines aren't necessary and wouldnt work anyway | 23:54 |
| kanzure | aren't necessary? | 23:54 |
| kanzure | then how do you force anybody to do anything | 23:54 |
| fenn | this is good too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Debian-package-cycle.png | 23:54 |
| kanzure | neat. | 23:55 |
| fenn | you dont force anybody to do anything | 23:55 |
| kanzure | but then how does stuff get done | 23:55 |
| fenn | you encourage people to make a commitment to getting it done | 23:55 |
| kanzure | hm. | 23:55 |
| fenn | either publically or privately | 23:55 |
| kanzure | cookies? | 23:55 |
| fenn | i'm not saying it's easy | 23:55 |
| fenn | i mean we're up against the whole fucking capitalist empire here | 23:55 |
| fenn | see when you're in a working group you (as a human) tend to feel an obligation towards that group | 23:56 |
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| fenn | it's not logical or easy to predict unless you understand psychology and human emotional needs | 23:56 |
| kanzure | fwiw, most "working groups" seem to me to be like "advisory boards" made up of people that hold honorary positions more than anything else | 23:56 |
| fenn | advisory board is an advisory board | 23:57 |
| fenn | they're different concepts | 23:57 |
| kanzure | hm | 23:57 |
| fenn | maybe people call their group the wrong thing | 23:57 |
| kanzure | maybe I'm unfamiliar with "working groups" made up of programmers/engineers | 23:57 |
| fenn | anyway, the point of a working group is to Get Shit Done | 23:57 |
| kanzure | but who's Shit is it? | 23:57 |
| kanzure | I mean, how do you convince people that it's interesting, or something | 23:57 |
| fenn | that depends on context | 23:57 |
| kanzure | blah | 23:57 |
| fenn | it takes a lot of effort to convince people you have the right idea | 23:58 |
| fenn | which is why your knee-jerk 'just write some xml' emails havent generated any response | 23:58 |
| kanzure | why can't we just grab some debian developers who are sympathetic to our cause | 23:58 |
| fenn | excep perhaps in a few individuals that already understand the principle to begin with, like mlp | 23:59 |
| fenn | well, why dont you? | 23:59 |
| kanzure | because I don't know how to abduct them | 23:59 |
| kanzure | send out an email somewhere? | 23:59 |
| fenn | i dont even know who they are or if they exist | 23:59 |
| kanzure | mystical chocolate-eating creatures of the dark seas of the web | 23:59 |
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