| --- Day changed Thu Dec 10 2009 | ||
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| faceface | are these guys any good? http://www.clubofrome.org/eng/home | 08:13 |
|---|---|---|
| faceface | (the club of rome) | 08:13 |
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| faceface | HEY HEY | 08:18 |
| faceface | I mean, hi lenny | 08:18 |
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| faceface | fface: now chose your own nick | 08:19 |
| * faceface <wipsers>he's not competent to work a kbd | 08:19 | |
| faceface | type at the bottom somewher | 08:20 |
| faceface | type at the bottom somewhere | 08:20 |
| faceface | off bottom in deed | 08:21 |
| fface | I can haz words! | 08:21 |
| * faceface praizes | 08:21 | |
| fface | Now what happens? | 08:21 |
| faceface | so the people in this channel like to talk about projects related to transhumanism | 08:21 |
| faceface | and there are other channels where you can discuss other topics | 08:21 |
| fface | When do the chicks get here. | 08:21 |
| faceface | soon soon | 08:22 |
| Utopiah | faceface: supposed to be very influencial on the political scene, nowadays... I can't say | 08:22 |
| faceface | its early in the morning in the US | 08:22 |
| fface | and the drugs | 08:22 |
| faceface | Utopiah: who? | 08:22 |
| faceface | fface: yes | 08:22 |
| faceface | fface: type "/nick something more original" | 08:22 |
| faceface | fface: type "/nick something_more_original" | 08:22 |
| fface | I want future drugs. | 08:22 |
| faceface | fface: I believe that that topic is valid in here | 08:22 |
| Utopiah | faceface: the club of rome | 08:23 |
| faceface | i.e. what to take if you want to work 20 hours out of 24 | 08:23 |
| faceface | oh right | 08:23 |
| Utopiah | if you want to work 20h/24h you might wnat to check #polyphasers | 08:23 |
| -!- fface is now known as lemonface | 08:23 | |
| faceface | fface: type "/join #polyphasers" | 08:23 |
| faceface | lemonface: try again | 08:24 |
| faceface | Utopiah: I just wondered if they were worth paying attention to | 08:24 |
| faceface | like the copenhagen consensus centre | 08:24 |
| faceface | anyone seen this? http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v462/n7274/full/462722a.html | 08:25 |
| faceface | A guide to the day of big data | 08:25 |
| faceface | so lemonface you see that this is better than wave right? | 08:26 |
| faceface | I mean, you must see that? | 08:26 |
| faceface | well... I got to work | 08:26 |
| faceface | l8r | 08:27 |
| faceface | lemonface: don't worry | 08:28 |
| faceface | everyone here is friendly | 08:28 |
| faceface | ahem.... | 08:28 |
| faceface | mostly | 08:28 |
| Utopiah | ahem | 08:28 |
| lemonface | faceface: wave, at present, sucks. | 08:28 |
| faceface | but the worst they will do is hack your cyberbrain and make you do unspeakable acts | 08:28 |
| faceface | true that | 08:28 |
| lemonface | is that all, the Russians already did that | 08:29 |
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| Utopiah | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6tQiJq9pQA | 08:36 |
| faceface | nice | 08:38 |
| Utopiah | LeWeb main stage, start-up competition demos http://www.ustream.tv/channel/le-web-main-stage | 08:39 |
| kanzure | "Saw my Afghan neighbor Abdul on 5th flr balcony shaking a carpet & shouted up to him,"What's up Abdul, won't it start?"" | 09:36 |
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| kanzure | http://blog.synthetos.com/magnetic-linear-encoder-and-it-works/ | 09:40 |
| kanzure | oh he's the one doing contraptor? http://www.flickr.com/photos/31697990@N00/sets/72157622475596037/ | 09:48 |
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| kanzure | hm i need to outline the skdb documentation thingy that marcin wanted me to write | 11:32 |
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| faceface | Utopiah: I just tuned in | 12:12 |
| faceface | weird | 12:12 |
| faceface | ! | 12:12 |
| kanzure | hi faceface | 12:33 |
| kanzure | who is the friend you brought in here? :) | 12:33 |
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| kanzure | jata wrote a piece for h+ magazine: http://cp.revolio.com/issue/5039/45 | 13:14 |
| kanzure | it's not all that interesting.. unless you're new to the internet. | 13:14 |
| kanzure | http://www.ehowa.com/features/acetyleneleak.shtml "Ernie, I got this today and had to send it on to you. Result of leaking acetylene bottle stored in plumbers van. Accidently ignited by activating a remote door lock device. Enjoy, Tyson" | 13:53 |
| kanzure | ack i've been blogged :( | 14:40 |
| kanzure | http://diybio.org/2009/12/10/bryan-bishop-reports-from-hplus-summit-2009/ | 14:40 |
| kanzure | hm there's two stories back-to-back on diybio.org on transhumanism | 14:43 |
| kanzure | what's going on here? | 14:43 |
| kanzure | http://www.nature.com/nbt/index.html | 14:45 |
| kanzure | http://createitreal.com/ | 14:56 |
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| kanzure | hey wulfdesign | 15:21 |
| wulfdesign | heys | 15:22 |
| kanzure | what's up? | 15:23 |
| wulfdesign | not much, just checking out chatzilla, Makerbot, and RepRap irc. | 15:24 |
| kanzure | you smell like a windows developer | 15:24 |
| kanzure | :) | 15:25 |
| wulfdesign | not really. | 15:25 |
| kanzure | oh wait that's violato.net | 15:25 |
| kanzure | who are you then? | 15:25 |
| kanzure | "dicky leonardo" ? | 15:26 |
| wulfdesign | 3d design and print. | 15:26 |
| kanzure | neat | 15:27 |
| wulfdesign | part of seattle's H+ group. | 15:27 |
| kanzure | i wasn't aware that they had a group | 15:28 |
| kanzure | have you checked out my transcripts from h+ summit 2009? | 15:28 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/hplus-summ | 15:28 |
| kanzure | er | 15:28 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/hplus-summit-2009/ | 15:28 |
| wulfdesign | nope, checking it out now though... | 15:29 |
| kanzure | i also presented: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n39RK4inzg | 15:29 |
| wulfdesign | cool, civilization seed eh? just gave a small talk at our local H+ group about DIY space (getting into orbit without NASA) | 15:35 |
| kanzure | you're in the right channel :) | 15:36 |
| wulfdesign | need to watch the rest of the video, back in ~10 min. | 15:36 |
| kanzure | there's two other parts btw.. | 15:36 |
| kanzure | part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S9z6H_EFqQ | 15:36 |
| kanzure | part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edl6uFn3_g4 (super short, just 2min extra that i couldn't fit on the last one) | 15:36 |
| Utopiah | http://www.cubesat.org/ | 15:37 |
| kanzure | yep | 15:37 |
| kanzure | man it's kind of lame that my 2007 links on diy space tech are still valid.. i mean, that there hasn't been much else | 15:37 |
| Utopiah | sth more specific than http://heybryan.org/bookmarks/bookmarks-old2//Space/index.html#32 ? | 15:39 |
| kanzure | no that's it | 15:39 |
| kanzure | er wait | 15:39 |
| kanzure | there was a list of teams | 15:40 |
| kanzure | huh i wonder where i put these links | 15:43 |
| wulfdesign | that was frick'en cool kanzure. I was putting forth that we need to 'Open Source' the technology we need to get into space. good to see there are other people on the same page. | 15:49 |
| wulfdesign | familiar with cube sat (online research only) | 15:50 |
| wulfdesign | need to watch the other 2 vids... | 15:51 |
| kanzure | so in particular there's been a lot more development that wasn't highlighted in the videos | 16:03 |
| kanzure | we have lots of code written, but what we need most are CAD models (not STL) and information about different standards for parts and components | 16:04 |
| kanzure | i also need to write a small manual or something :p | 16:04 |
| wulfdesign | there was a lot of cool, stuff. some of it I'm familiar with, some not. | 16:07 |
| wulfdesign | we just started an hacker/maker space in seattle. looks like we'll be starting to teach classes in January. | 16:11 |
| wulfdesign | I'll me teaching workshops in 3d design and print (I've got a Makerbot). | 16:12 |
| kanzure | cool, then you might be interested in the open source hardware / transhumanism co-op we're building | 16:12 |
| wulfdesign | yep, where | 16:12 |
| kanzure | basically the idea is to leverage all of these hackerspaces around the globe | 16:12 |
| kanzure | nowhere in particular- it's on the net mainly right now | 16:12 |
| wulfdesign | yep, rigtht there with you. | 16:12 |
| kanzure | members of the co-op help package up open source hardware | 16:13 |
| wulfdesign | yep, | 16:13 |
| kanzure | this way, users can get to what they want to be doing: making stuff.. not worrying about compatibility, feasibility, or where or what tools to get | 16:13 |
| wulfdesign | I'm trying to work on that locally. | 16:13 |
| wulfdesign | the hack spaces that is. | 16:13 |
| kanzure | it would be great if the seattle space would like to join the co-op. joining at the moment doesn't really mean much other than wanting to keep tuned in with updates :p | 16:13 |
| wulfdesign | I'm a part of two artist/maker co-ops currently. | 16:14 |
| kanzure | ah cool | 16:14 |
| kanzure | tell me about them | 16:14 |
| wulfdesign | Jigsaw Renaissance just got a space in the last couple of weeks, it was born out of Seattle's H+ group. | 16:15 |
| wulfdesign | the other is a Viking Metal Foundry in Ballard (Seattle). they cast bronze. I've actually have a work space there of the first of next year. | 16:17 |
| wulfdesign | I also started a WiFi co-op for the marina I live in. we all pitched in and bought business class dsl. that's been gouing on for about 5 years. | 16:18 |
| wulfdesign | I think Jigsaw will be teaching (outreach) classes by next month. | 16:21 |
| wulfdesign | Seattle H+ facebook page. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=45185947838 | 16:22 |
| wulfdesign | http://www.jigsawrenaissance.org/ | 16:23 |
| wulfdesign | the fire foundry is more local, but has some of the same ideal, DIY, distributed, boot strap, ect. | 16:24 |
| wulfdesign | I got to take off for a bit. back later. | 16:25 |
| wulfdesign | thanks Kanzure for the links. | 16:26 |
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| Utopiah | ( Artscience : Creativity in the Post-Google Generation by David Edwards http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/EDWART.html ) | 16:35 |
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| Utopiah | (seems their related "innovation lab" either didn't last as long as most hacker space or at least didn't communicate after their opening...) | 16:53 |
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| kristianpaul | Utopiah: http://kefir.wikidot.com/ | 17:09 |
| Utopiah | thanks | 17:10 |
| Utopiah | heard about it few weeks ago actually | 17:11 |
| genehacker | hmmmm... they should at nitrate bacteria for producing gun powder to section weapons | 17:23 |
| genehacker | you can grow em in fishtanks | 17:23 |
| genehacker | sans fish | 17:23 |
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| kanzure | http://www.cubespawn.com/ called me | 17:54 |
| kanzure | he wants to do standard form factors for manufacturing equipment | 17:54 |
| kanzure | and throw in standard controllers and connections for power, etc. | 18:02 |
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| wulfdesign_ | sweet deal with the cubespawn stuff. I like their form factor. | 18:10 |
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| wulfdesign_ | I've been looking at making a http://www.contraptor.org/ for my next cnc/printing platform. | 18:12 |
| wulfdesign_ | keep us informed how that goes, either on here or website. | 18:12 |
| wulfdesign_ | genehacker, wonder if you could use those nitrate bacteria for making rocket fuel. I know there is hydrazine (space shuttle fuel) in some poisonous mushrooms. | 18:15 |
| wulfdesign_ | as well... | 18:15 |
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| CubeSpawn | Good evening, enhanced humans! | 18:16 |
| genehacker | so it begins | 18:18 |
| CubeSpawn | or continues... | 18:18 |
| genehacker | do you have any CAD files? | 18:18 |
| CubeSpawn | not as such... | 18:18 |
| genehacker | that we can put into our open source hardware database of doom? | 18:19 |
| CubeSpawn | sorry only sketchup at this point, I'll be converting to a less obscure format soon | 18:19 |
| genehacker | wow | 18:20 |
| wulfdesign_ | greetings CubeSpawn. nice format btw. | 18:20 |
| CubeSpawn | greetz wulf! | 18:20 |
| wulfdesign_ | nods | 18:21 |
| genehacker | oh wulfdesign, it make much more sense to make H2O2 instead and use that and algal oil for propulsion | 18:21 |
| genehacker | anyway CubeSpawn, your system uses all extruded aluminum bars correct? | 18:22 |
| CubeSpawn | yup | 18:22 |
| wulfdesign_ | MakeBeam? | 18:23 |
| genehacker | and you've been able to make a CNC machine, that is how accurate? | 18:23 |
| wulfdesign_ | MakerBeam | 18:23 |
| CubeSpawn | that too, for the "little Cube-lettes" | 18:23 |
| CubeSpawn | accuracy is poor, I think I'll be able to hold .001 in the prototype, hopefully better with subsequent versions | 18:25 |
| genehacker | if the accuracy of the CNC machine is better than the accuracy of the extruded aluminum, you should really consider making an EDM cube for making spider-dies and associated extrusion equipment for making the extruded aluminum bar from aluminum | 18:25 |
| CubeSpawn | looking at Prototype-->mark 1-->Mark 2--Acceptable CNC | 18:26 |
| CubeSpawn | well the goal is to fit a whole spectrum of small CNC stuff into standard cubes, get a system architecture thats community acceptable, then absorb improved designs into the distributed database | 18:28 |
| genehacker | and do cool flexible manufacturing stuff like is currently done in industry | 18:29 |
| CubeSpawn | I'm not smart enough to build it all, just want to pull everyone to a standard "form factor" to speed up the overall adoption of home-fab/distributed manufacturing | 18:30 |
| CubeSpawn | that way YOU build an EDM and I can bolt it up to my system - as well as downloading and making it on my mill | 18:30 |
| genehacker | well a standard for flexible manufacturing would be good, as one of the problems in the field is the lack of standards(and programming the robots, that too...) | 18:31 |
| wulfdesign_ | cool. so you could mount a reprap Mendel in a cube to print parts, push them out to a pick and place cube, and assemble. | 18:33 |
| wulfdesign_ | ? | 18:33 |
| CubeSpawn | I believe that the working envelope on the first prototypes is pretty small - but a lot of useful parts are pretty small - so it works out - and a small cube can make parts for bigger cubes - because "Y" is unconstrained for length | 18:33 |
| CubeSpawn | yes exactly | 18:33 |
| CubeSpawn | the 3 axis preliminary cube has 2 accessory cubes attached: | 18:34 |
| wulfdesign_ | if you need bigger parts you can always build a bigger cube, or make a bigger y axis. (like cubeSat) | 18:34 |
| CubeSpawn | a toolchanger for the milling spindle, and a head changer - so it can BE a RepStrap | 18:34 |
| kanzure | hello evil minions | 18:35 |
| wulfdesign_ | cool. | 18:35 |
| CubeSpawn | not a big leap from there to make the 3 axis a 5 axis mill | 18:35 |
| kanzure | hey Rick_P | 18:36 |
| kanzure | hey drgone | 18:36 |
| kanzure | hm who are all these people | 18:36 |
| -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 34 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 34 normal] | 18:36 | |
| CubeSpawn | minions, perhaps? | 18:36 |
| genehacker | well we got the CubeSpawn guy here, I don't know why they're all here | 18:37 |
| genehacker | perhaps that presentation of yours is propagating through the blogosphere? | 18:37 |
| kanzure | ybit: is the .deb ready? | 18:38 |
| wulfdesign_ | there was a post on Makerbot forums, that's how I found the place. | 18:38 |
| CubeSpawn | afk a short while, brb | 18:38 |
| kanzure | genehacker: do you still have those links to the multiple mini cnc routers? | 18:42 |
| kanzure | i think there's a folder in the papers/ directory on /var/www/ on adl | 18:42 |
| kanzure | minituarization is a neat concept, especially from a transhuman perspective | 18:42 |
| genehacker | this is annoying, my favorite music streaming website decides to go bankrupt before I can get my music off of it | 18:42 |
| kanzure | because you don't really need /big/ lab equipment | 18:43 |
| genehacker | oh yeah | 18:43 |
| genehacker | somewhere | 18:43 |
| CubeSpawn | back, | 18:43 |
| kanzure | but you do need big equipment if you want to do mass production.. however, mass production isn't actually the goal (is it?) | 18:43 |
| genehacker | I think in my huge bookmark list | 18:43 |
| kanzure | when are you going to share that list? | 18:43 |
| genehacker | it can be the goal | 18:43 |
| genehacker | sure, but I don't think very many of those things actually worked | 18:44 |
| kanzure | what things? | 18:44 |
| CubeSpawn | the ability to di it at all takes precedent, THEN being able to do it on volume comes in - then doing it fast is next | 18:44 |
| genehacker | I still want a milling machine that can fit in my backpack though | 18:44 |
| wulfdesign_ | distributed manufacturing... | 18:44 |
| genehacker | machining centers do it all and very fast | 18:44 |
| kanzure | to be honest i'm not a big fan of distributed manufacturing | 18:44 |
| kanzure | i mean, i don't dislike it | 18:44 |
| kanzure | but it seems perpendicular to what i want to do | 18:45 |
| kanzure | to me it is already distributed.. distributed away from me :( | 18:45 |
| genehacker | ha | 18:45 |
| genehacker | blast | 18:45 |
| genehacker | link rot | 18:46 |
| wulfdesign_ | ahh.. distributed manufacturing... for large quantities. but you could do everything in house yourself. | 18:46 |
| CubeSpawn | machining centers do it well, but thier costly and heavy, and can't male themselves, mostly... | 18:46 |
| kanzure | wulfdesign_: if you're going to do everything in house, why not make it "small"? | 18:46 |
| CubeSpawn | *make | 18:46 |
| genehacker | there's a reason why they're heavy | 18:46 |
| CubeSpawn | understood | 18:46 |
| kanzure | because fenn hasn't finished hextatic? | 18:46 |
| genehacker | it's so the machines are stiff enough not to deform under load | 18:46 |
| genehacker | yeah or the NIST hasn't finished the hexapod | 18:47 |
| kanzure | that's just because people don't know how to distribute loads properly | 18:47 |
| genehacker | or because we don't have carbon nanotube composites | 18:47 |
| kanzure | fenn: are you awake? | 18:47 |
| kanzure | we don't need CNT composites | 18:47 |
| genehacker | stiffness has to do with the youngs modulus of the material used | 18:47 |
| genehacker | young's modulus is a fundamental property of a material that can't be increased with various processing techniques only decreased | 18:48 |
| kanzure | does anyone know where iceweasel/firefox puts its locks? there's no other process running but it claims there is | 18:48 |
| genehacker | it depends on the attractive forces between atoms | 18:48 |
| kanzure | http://fennetic.net/machines/index.php?hexegrity | 18:48 |
| wulfdesign_ | in the H+ video used geodesic structures to provide rigidity (triangles make things more stable) | 18:49 |
| CubeSpawn | well in the mid-term - I'll settle for being able to machine in my garage with cheap, light gear - even if its slow, and I can't cut over .015 a pass | 18:49 |
| kanzure | well that's what i'm wondering about, CubeSpawn | 18:49 |
| kanzure | first, if you manufacture small stuff, you need a slightly different toolset | 18:49 |
| kanzure | so would it be more convenient to manufacture with the "standard sizes" | 18:49 |
| kanzure | because there's stuff floating around out there | 18:49 |
| genehacker | that's good enough cubespawn | 18:49 |
| kanzure | or are we equally screwed in either case, and might as well make things small? | 18:49 |
| kanzure | for instance, instead of a 5 foot lathe, how about one that fits in your backpack? | 18:50 |
| CubeSpawn | everything in my system wil be buyable first, then self manufactured - I can't re-create the vast infrastructure of civilization all at once | 18:50 |
| wulfdesign_ | yea, just one step at a time. | 18:51 |
| kanzure | makes sense | 18:51 |
| kanzure | wulfdesign_: in particular i'm thinking of transhuman projects on my todo list | 18:51 |
| genehacker | kanzure don't you have my bookmark list? | 18:51 |
| kanzure | no | 18:51 |
| kanzure | wulfdesign_: there's no reason to do them in mass volume. just make one-offs for yourself (but make them to the specs/designs) | 18:51 |
| genehacker | you do I gave it to you | 18:52 |
| kanzure | when? | 18:52 |
| genehacker | http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=6RY1AAAAEBAJ&dq=rotary+pneumatic+motor | 18:52 |
| genehacker | Oh I did find this though | 18:52 |
| genehacker | some time ago | 18:53 |
| genehacker | seems my links to mini cnc machines have died | 18:53 |
| CubeSpawn | so the cubes start out with a light mill, we make the more expensive parts for additional cubes with that, and use software compensation to push the accuracy as high as possible | 18:53 |
| kanzure | have you read gingery's books? | 18:53 |
| CubeSpawn | my first cube is 500mm to keep cost down | 18:53 |
| genehacker | here's what I googled to find them: any combination of mini, micro, cnc, mill, milling machine | 18:53 |
| CubeSpawn | actually only a couple | 18:54 |
| CubeSpawn | the vacuum former book, and something else - been a while | 18:54 |
| kanzure | ok just making sure | 18:54 |
| genehacker | well I'm not sure how far you can take software, but if you have infinite computational power anything is possible I guess | 18:54 |
| genehacker | I need to get some gingery books | 18:54 |
| kanzure | genehacker: i gave you a link to download them | 18:54 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/gingery.zip has everything i think | 18:55 |
| genehacker | heh, manipulating the machines vibrations in such a way as to get the right shape | 18:55 |
| genehacker | I think I might get some meatspace gingery books in case of zombie apocalypse | 18:55 |
| kanzure | i need to restart Xorg, brb | 18:57 |
| genehacker | http://www.gizmag.com/go/7346/ | 18:57 |
| CubeSpawn | have you guys gone and looked? www.cubespawn.com | 18:57 |
| genehacker | here's something that might be useful for tiny machining | 18:57 |
| wulfdesign_ | yep, already knew about you as soon as your website came up. | 18:57 |
| wulfdesign_ | grins | 18:57 |
| genehacker | I know some japanese company uses a machine to make tiny tiny molds for tiny tiny anime robots | 18:58 |
| genehacker | *err the process | 18:58 |
| genehacker | http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/310730/plastic_circuits_make_tougher_greener_computers | 18:58 |
| CubeSpawn | it (will perpetually) needs work and I'm no copy writer so we can only hope for improvement over time | 18:59 |
| kanzure | CubeSpawn: have you seen http://replab.org/ ? i think sam putman threw it up | 18:59 |
| kanzure | http://openmanufacturing.org/ is another good resource | 18:59 |
| CubeSpawn | erik de bruijn actually | 18:59 |
| kanzure | erik hasn't talked with me yet even though we've been running into each other since late 2008 | 19:00 |
| kanzure | oh well | 19:00 |
| genehacker | well look what I found | 19:00 |
| genehacker | http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/c3d5d8d4cfb18b7e/4883d10523732268?lnk=gst&q=milling+machine#4883d10523732268 | 19:00 |
| CubeSpawn | I emailed him - seems like a nice chap - I looked up a dutch joke and added it to the end of an email as an ice breaker | 19:01 |
| genehacker | erik de bruijn's a reprap guy, I think he might even be part of the reprap core group | 19:02 |
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| CubeSpawn | yep early adopter, big time promoter of it | 19:02 |
| genehacker | http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.st.rim.or.jp%2F~hide-i%2Ftools%2Ftools.html&sl=auto&tl=en | 19:03 |
| genehacker | here's the palmtop cnc machine | 19:04 |
| genehacker | it doesn't look like it works though | 19:04 |
| kanzure | aha it's in ~/.mozilla/firefox/<randomcrap>/.parentlock | 19:04 |
| * kanzure fixed it | 19:04 | |
| genehacker | I'd really like to have a working milling machine that could fit in my backpack that would be really accurate and capable of cutting metal | 19:06 |
| genehacker | or at the very least wax | 19:06 |
| CubeSpawn | well just as ANOTHER cubespawn plug, if you assemble little cubes in bigger ones, and the onscreen process stays the same regardless of scale - how small could you go before the materials handling physics changed to much to do the work? | 19:06 |
| genehacker | my original idea for doing something like this would be to use CD drive linear actuators and probe to do really accurate electrochemical machining | 19:07 |
| genehacker | well what's your cutting process? | 19:07 |
| CubeSpawn | and try this: if each cube can make the components for the next larger size (which they could) then how small of a cube is reasonable to start with to build a new facility? | 19:09 |
| genehacker | there comes a point where traditional cutting processes start to get inaccurate | 19:10 |
| CubeSpawn | would depend in the materials of course but machining aluminum probably has a lower reasonable threshhld | 19:10 |
| CubeSpawn | actually one of the early projects I'd like to get past theoretical is to get an open source linear motor design in circulation | 19:11 |
| genehacker | you know they make lenses for DVD/bluray/optical media readers by really really accurate milling machines | 19:12 |
| genehacker | reprap could really use a linear motor too | 19:12 |
| CubeSpawn | for the 500mm cubes this would simplify building the motion part of things, potentially improve accuracy, and simplify things mechanically | 19:13 |
| genehacker | be nice to make one with air bearings | 19:13 |
| genehacker | well I'm not so sure about accuracy though | 19:13 |
| CubeSpawn | if well designed they have very accuratly sensed positioning | 19:14 |
| CubeSpawn | http://www.compumotor.com/whitepages/linearmotorarticle.pdf | 19:15 |
| genehacker | how accurate? | 19:16 |
| CubeSpawn | according to this article 1 micron resolution | 19:17 |
| genehacker | pretty fair | 19:18 |
| genehacker | now how do you make them? | 19:18 |
| CubeSpawn | coil winder and a milling machine | 19:18 |
| CubeSpawn | series of staggered coils stacked between 2 plates | 19:19 |
| CubeSpawn | decent picture here : http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/ph/p/id/133 | 19:20 |
| genehacker | and there's no need to make precision milled motion guides? | 19:20 |
| CubeSpawn | usually linear bearings - need to be ground | 19:20 |
| genehacker | and you have a way of making those? | 19:20 |
| CubeSpawn | allow me to show you over here to the surface grinding cube..... no. not yet | 19:21 |
| genehacker | looks a bit expensive, don't you have to have a hall effect sensors? | 19:21 |
| genehacker | grinding hmmm... | 19:21 |
| kanzure | yeah a linear motor would be nice :) | 19:22 |
| kanzure | the openservo project is halfway fail | 19:22 |
| genehacker | if you had to I guess you could use toothpaste and a rag to do that... | 19:23 |
| genehacker | might take a while | 19:23 |
| genehacker | linear motors are nice, but they're a bit resource intensive, an open stepper motor might make more sense at this stage | 19:24 |
| CubeSpawn | well back to the earlier comment - one step at a time - the 3 axis cnc prototype is assembled on salvage priced 15mm ballscrews, I'm trying to select a path that will be 100% recursive - and fortunatly I can do it from the existing huge store of readily available components and technologies | 19:24 |
| CubeSpawn | it won't happen in the first step, or the first 1000 | 19:25 |
| kanzure | people tend to be bad at selecting recursive paths or replicable paths | 19:25 |
| kanzure | do you have a particular metric you can share? | 19:25 |
| genehacker | well in order to get 100% replication with store bought components and conventional assembly techniques you need smart robots | 19:26 |
| kanzure | what? | 19:26 |
| genehacker | smart robots need chips | 19:26 |
| kanzure | what does smart have to do with it? | 19:26 |
| CubeSpawn | but our combined efforts can pull this huge existing store of stuff out of the old world of control and into the world of open source - if we're relentless about it | 19:26 |
| kanzure | yep | 19:26 |
| genehacker | and fortunately there is a push for lights out computer chip fabs | 19:27 |
| kanzure | genehacker: chips aren't magical. also if mm-scale circuits are too wonky we can always do analog electronics | 19:27 |
| CubeSpawn | oh I agree there a hugely superflous variation in current manufacturing practice | 19:27 |
| genehacker | which could close the loop | 19:27 |
| genehacker | how do you make the laser for the laser rangefinders that jigless assembly robots need? | 19:28 |
| CubeSpawn | if a lot of people pick a standard, put some hardcore effort into it I can see VLSI level IC's in the garage in 3-5 years | 19:29 |
| genehacker | anyway I have to go, here's an old tome from high precision machinists: "on a mill, everything is a thermometer" | 19:29 |
| kanzure | well remember the chips originated from garages in the first place | 19:29 |
| kanzure | er, or at least some of them did | 19:30 |
| genehacker | don't forget the maskless lithography process that uses a MEMS chip that was made with 70s era fab equipment... | 19:30 |
| wulfdesign_ | see ya gene. | 19:31 |
| CubeSpawn | See ya! | 19:32 |
| CubeSpawn | anyhow, dinner calleth to me so I'll bbl! no taking over the world while I'm away!! | 19:35 |
| kanzure | i'm busy hacking away at some code, don't worry | 19:35 |
| wulfdesign_ | thanks Cube, | 19:36 |
| CubeSpawn | oh, main() | 19:37 |
| CubeSpawn | { | 19:37 |
| CubeSpawn | printf("hello, world, Submit!\n"); | 19:37 |
| CubeSpawn | } | 19:37 |
| CubeSpawn | later | 19:38 |
| kanzure | "Lego also did a mosaic product for a while where you could upload an image and they would send you parts and instructions for making the image with 1x1 Lego plates." | 19:39 |
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| kanzure | hey maxbots | 19:40 |
| maxbots | Howdy | 19:40 |
| maxbots | Saw this groupl mentioned in the makerbot Yahoo group, thought I'd see what it's about. :-) | 19:40 |
| kanzure | our main project was recently featured in a video | 19:41 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n39RK4inzg | 19:41 |
| maxbots | thx | 19:41 |
| kanzure | the idea is to make hardware "downloadable"-- think of thingiverse on steroids and instructables mated with a cluestick | 19:41 |
| maxbots | cool | 19:42 |
| wulfdesign_ | hmm... I wonder if you could have a 'local' parts lister. something that would search what parts you are looking for and find a local source for them. | 19:47 |
| kanzure | yes | 19:48 |
| kanzure | so, first of all, there's a website in the code repository that we're working on to take advantage of all this software | 19:48 |
| kanzure | one idea is to let the user type up their inventory | 19:49 |
| kanzure | and then map it to pre-existing packages | 19:49 |
| kanzure | so that we can then figure out how they can build something based off of what they already have | 19:49 |
| kanzure | or what they have to build in between where they are now and where they want to be | 19:49 |
| kanzure | another idea is that next to every package there's a "make" button but also a "buy" button | 19:50 |
| kanzure | not everyone wants to make their own screws :) | 19:50 |
| wulfdesign_ | if businesses opened up their inventory database to search against. it would help bring them out as well. | 19:50 |
| kanzure | so there are certain "outs" | 19:50 |
| kanzure | yeah that's actually one of the problems.. a lot of people have really terrible data | 19:50 |
| kanzure | octopart.org is the only thing happening in that scene really | 19:50 |
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| wulfdesign_ | yea, tell me about it (databases). I came from being a dba (many years back). | 19:52 |
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| kanzure | oh so you're pure evil :-) | 19:52 |
| wulfdesign_ | not any more. I found salvation in open source. | 19:52 |
| wulfdesign_ | only with Xerox for a few years.... | 19:53 |
| wulfdesign_ | before chapter 11... | 19:53 |
| kanzure | wulfdesign_: are you a programmer? | 19:55 |
| kanzure | i'd love to show you around the skdb source code some time | 19:55 |
| wulfdesign_ | no. I have programmed in the past. but don't consider myself a programmer. skill set is a few years old. | 19:55 |
| wulfdesign_ | sure thing. | 19:55 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/skdb/ is some of the code laying around | 19:56 |
| wulfdesign_ | I'm more of a hack than a programmer. | 19:56 |
| kanzure | :) | 19:56 |
| kanzure | oh btw does anyone know of (1) an osx guy who can help get a .dmg for skdb made, or (2) how to get osx running under vmware? | 19:56 |
| wulfdesign_ | I have the ability to make things work, but mostly it's my voodoo skills. | 19:56 |
| wulfdesign_ | no, but will keep my eyes open. | 19:57 |
| wulfdesign_ | python? been meaning to pick that up. skeinforge uses it. be nice to hack my own code. I like it when I can get programs to do redundant work. | 19:59 |
| kanzure | yep it's all in python | 20:00 |
| wulfdesign_ | what (open) format do you want designs in? | 20:10 |
| ybit | step | 20:13 |
| kanzure | IGES, STEP, not STL | 20:13 |
| kanzure | my eye hurts | 20:13 |
| ybit | pythonocc 0.4 is being released in about a week | 20:14 |
| ybit | thhis coming from thomas paviot | 20:15 |
| kanzure | i find it funny that he had the same problems i did with taking screenshots without X11 | 20:16 |
| kanzure | also how he completely ignored my notes on the topic :( | 20:16 |
| wulfdesign_ | with either IGES, STEP. is both better? or either one... I'm using Rhino3d. which is proprietary. unfortunately I'm having trouble getting Open Source software to work on my current (old) computer system | 20:19 |
| kanzure | hm | 20:20 |
| kanzure | in general i've found that i can convert from iges->step and from step->iges | 20:20 |
| wulfdesign_ | I think I could provide both. let me look. | 20:20 |
| kanzure | for something in particular? | 20:21 |
| ybit | wulfdesign_: step's cad spec was intended as a replacement for iges, so step is preferred | 20:21 |
| kanzure | ybit: other way around i think | 20:21 |
| ybit | nope | 20:21 |
| kanzure | right? | 20:21 |
| kanzure | hrm | 20:21 |
| kanzure | but nobody has the STEP docs | 20:21 |
| ybit | The development of STEP started in 1984 as a successor of IGES, SET and VDA-FS [1] | 20:22 |
| CubeSpawn | figgers, right after I dropped out of machining and cam the first time... | 20:23 |
| CubeSpawn | just read through what here since I left - must all be pretty bust multitasking... ;-) | 20:24 |
| ybit | yeavo | 20:24 |
| CubeSpawn | crap the ole degenerative typing disorder is setting in - makes me sound COMLETLEY illiterate | 20:25 |
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| CubeSpawn | I see a bit of mention above about revealing the architecture, or philosophy or maybe what bones you cast into the pentagram that lead you to SKDB? | 20:28 |
| CubeSpawn | I believe the cogent phrase was "show you around the source code sometime..." | 20:31 |
| kanzure | oh lookie, it's made it to the web: http://harkopen.com/news/skdb-presentation-h-summit | 20:31 |
| kanzure | CubeSpawn: yeah | 20:32 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/ if you get bored of waiting and want to explore it on your own | 20:32 |
| wulfdesign_ | I just exported a test file from Rhino3d to IGES and STEP. When I re-imported them the IGES object was fragmented into all the surfaces and the STEP was a complete object. | 20:32 |
| kanzure | unfortunately i'm about to be picked up to go to a meeting | 20:32 |
| kanzure | wulfdesign_: huh. i haven't had those troubles with iges before. anyway, step it is :) | 20:32 |
| wulfdesign_ | so, at least with Rhino3d (version 3.0) STEP is the way to go. | 20:33 |
| kanzure | fenn might show up, or you can pester ybit for details | 20:33 |
| CubeSpawn | ah kewl, I'll explore, but I'll have lots of questions - are there any diagrams? | 20:33 |
| kanzure | yeah there are many diagrams.. one sec | 20:33 |
| kanzure | here's a recent presentation: | 20:33 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/presentations/updates-from-austin.pdf | 20:33 |
| kanzure | here's the one that was in the youtube video: http://adl.serveftp.org/~bryan/presentations/hplus-summit-2009/hplus-summit-2009-how-to-make.pdf | 20:34 |
| CubeSpawn | kewl thanks | 20:34 |
| kanzure | http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/skdb | 20:34 |
| kanzure | anyway, i really do need to get around to writing about the architecture | 20:34 |
| wulfdesign_ | eh? I had my twitter feed turned off... | 20:35 |
| kanzure | the core themes and concepts are: packages, git and distributed revision control, object serialization (YAML), units and physical dimensions, and stuff on the near horizon like dependency resolution (if i have x, y, z, how do i make a, b, c) | 20:35 |
| CubeSpawn | I'd like to help - and as a noob - I'll ask questions your familiarity might blind you to | 20:35 |
| kanzure | yay that's perfect | 20:35 |
| kanzure | right now installing skdb is a pain in the ass except if you're on linux.. we need to fix this | 20:35 |
| wulfdesign_ | sure. some cross platform documentation... | 20:36 |
| CubeSpawn | or wipe out all non linux users..oops it too early for that (he types from mirc on windows) | 20:36 |
| wulfdesign_ | I could maybe do that for windows since that is the platform I'm currently using. | 20:36 |
| kanzure | there are some tricks that you can do on windows to make things move faster | 20:37 |
| kanzure | for instance, there's a download for pythonocc from http://pythonocc.org/ meant specifically for windows users | 20:37 |
| wulfdesign_ | hey, MOST of my machines are Linux... | 20:37 |
| kanzure | it includes python, pythonOCC, etc | 20:37 |
| kanzure | oh | 20:37 |
| kanzure | great then | 20:37 |
| kanzure | i'd rather not have to deal with windows right now | 20:37 |
| wulfdesign_ | eh? I've Linux installed on one of my machines. I can use it for skdb. prob good idea to keep it up and VNC into it. | 20:39 |
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| CubeSpawn | I run 4 out of 8 VMs at work that are linux flavored - cmon - the First computer I used was a trash 80 and I went to a PET after that, then Amiga - I only do microsoft as a digital prostitute | 20:40 |
| kanzure | need to run.. who the heck schedules meetings for 9pm | 20:40 |
| CubeSpawn | zombies... | 20:40 |
| wulfdesign_ | see ya | 20:41 |
| CubeSpawn | ok guys gonna go swim in the technical literature - and bake some bread - makes the house smell great - and keeps the heating bill low | 20:43 |
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| Utopiah | http://knowfree.net/2009/12/universal-principles-of-design/ | 21:01 |
| CubeSpawn | thanks for the virus infested site utopiah | 21:03 |
| Utopiah | CubeSpawn: eh... I recommend you use a proper system to browse the net | 21:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | vim ? | 21:05 |
| Utopiah | Vimperator is a good start yes ;) | 21:05 |
| Utopiah | CubeSpawn: if you use Firefox http://noscript.net/ and http://adblockplus.org/ are pretty useful | 21:06 |
| CubeSpawn | 3 script attacks - nothing gets through, but its not a "nice" neighborhood... ;-) | 21:07 |
| ybit | uzbl ftw | 21:14 |
| Utopiah | surfraw? well anyway point is you can go in dark place if you have the right tools ;) | 21:15 |
| CubeSpawn | actually, I use IE in a VM - mainly since thats what I use at work - and its pretty foolproof - blow it up, and you can be running again in 2-3 minutes, tops ;-) | 21:15 |
| CubeSpawn | I'm not an MS fan - just have to deal with it a lot | 21:15 |
| ybit | yay http://www.jython.org/archive/21/docs/zxjdbc.html | 21:15 |
| ybit | jdbc for jython, and it appears you can use jdbc directly without even having to use zxjdbc | 21:16 |
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| wulfdesign_ | got to run | 22:08 |
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| kanzure | interesting stuff on the openmoko: http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1473068&cid=30383758 | 23:19 |
| fenn | rawr | 23:28 |
| fenn | how am i supposed to read this huge scrollback | 23:28 |
| kanzure | what do you think about cubespawn's idea of standardizing manufacturing equipment form factors | 23:28 |
| genehacker | that's annoying | 23:33 |
| genehacker | should be done | 23:33 |
| kanzure | standardizing power, data, microcontrollers, minicomputers, etc. is understandable | 23:33 |
| genehacker | not sure if it will succede | 23:33 |
| kanzure | in personal computers, form factors are easy to enforce or standardize since it's all a matter of putting stuff in different places | 23:34 |
| kanzure | in manufacturing sometimes people claim you really do need all that space | 23:34 |
| genehacker | why minicomputers, why not just the data processing they do? | 23:34 |
| kanzure | what? | 23:34 |
| genehacker | the software | 23:34 |
| kanzure | no the software has to run on something | 23:34 |
| genehacker | anyway manufacturers of factory equipment tend to want their equipment to be only compatible with their equipment | 23:36 |
| kanzure | fenn: the thing i'm worried about re: the paper is that i don't actually have anything to say | 23:37 |
| kanzure | "well we tried to convert matt. that didn't work. uhh." | 23:37 |
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| fenn | re: cubespawn; ethercat is overkill for 99.99999% of all DIY manufacturing | 23:50 |
| fenn | it's fucking retarded to make that the interconnection standard | 23:51 |
| fenn | and it's sort of proprietary (sort of) | 23:51 |
| kanzure | i'm more concerned about "everything's a cube! er, or at least should fit into that form factor" | 23:52 |
| kanzure | i guess the size can scale up for bigger things | 23:52 |
| kanzure | i'm no sizist (yet) | 23:52 |
| fenn | anyway i dont really "get it" | 23:52 |
| fenn | who cares if it fits into a cube | 23:53 |
| fenn | that's the least of our problems | 23:53 |
| kanzure | the guy is in san antonio btw and wants to meet with us.. er, me, at some point | 23:53 |
| fenn | i understand for something like MUOL, but in a guy's basement the management overhead just isnt that high | 23:54 |
| genehacker2 | http://www.hitech.co.za/images/mazak_mazatorolfms_maschine.jpg | 23:54 |
| genehacker2 | maybe cubes aren't the way to go | 23:54 |
| genehacker2 | I'm wondering what he's going to do about the transfer system | 23:54 |
| kanzure | why did computers come in a box originally? | 23:55 |
| kanzure | there were two issues with "form factors" back in the day: | 23:55 |
| fenn | what is a flexible manufacturing system and why should i care? | 23:55 |
| kanzure | 1) whether or not they had the right interfaces (i.e. PCI) | 23:55 |
| kanzure | 2) whether or not there's enough space in the box for a big giant board | 23:55 |
| kanzure | but #2 is defeated by asking why it's in a box in the first place | 23:55 |
| fenn | magnetic shielding, i guess | 23:55 |
| genehacker2 | a flexible manufacturing system is a manufacturing system designed to make multiple products | 23:56 |
| kanzure | oh noes the bits on my floppy are going to be flipped? | 23:56 |
| genehacker2 | or easily transition to making a different product | 23:56 |
| fenn | genehacker2: what's wrong with a cnc machine with a pallet changer? | 23:56 |
| genehacker2 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_manufacturing_system | 23:56 |
| genehacker2 | that's a component of a flexible manufacturing system | 23:57 |
| genehacker2 | nothing is wrong with it | 23:57 |
| fenn | it just seems to me that we could do it all in one cell, in which case the whole system is superfluous | 23:57 |
| -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-165-82.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] | 23:57 | |
| fenn | the only advantage is tool change time? | 23:58 |
| fenn | no, i dont get it | 23:58 |
| fenn | anyway t-slot sucks for machine tools | 23:59 |
| genehacker2 | are you going to do coordinate measuring and machining in one step | 23:59 |
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