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| MrClif1 | oh Hi, guys I've been doing christmass stuff at my Brothers house so haven't been at the keyboard. | 02:05 |
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| MrClif1 | id mrclif | 02:05 |
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| kanzure | hello JayDugger | 09:44 |
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| JayDugger | Hello, kanzure. I apologize for the lag in answering. I had some housework to do. | 11:17 |
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| JayDugger | Kanzure, do you plan to attend the Foresight 2010 conference next month? | 11:34 |
| kanzure | i haven't decided yet. i'm kind of annoyed that hod is talking there about open manufacturing | 11:36 |
| kanzure | and that nobody told me about it until last week | 11:36 |
| JayDugger | Hod? A nickname or a typo? | 11:36 |
| kanzure | hod lipson | 11:37 |
| kanzure | http://foresight.org/conf2010/ | 11:37 |
| kanzure | "Open source in manufacturing and AI" | 11:37 |
| kanzure | "Principles underlying exponential manufacturing" | 11:38 |
| kanzure | i have no idea why half of these people are speaking. anissimov? he doesn't care about manufacturing | 11:38 |
| JayDugger | I see Hod Lipson at "Adaptive and Self-Reflective Systems." | 11:38 |
| kanzure | he's the only one with background in anything vaguely related to open manufacturing | 11:39 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, but you do get Merkle's presentation. | 11:39 |
| JayDugger | I don't think attendance deserves the airfare and hotel cost, but I don't know about the off-program value. | 11:40 |
| kanzure | hrm | 11:40 |
| JayDugger | Not going myself, but I wondered if you were. | 11:40 |
| kanzure | i think we should get at least one goon to go | 11:40 |
| kanzure | i know some people in the area | 11:40 |
| kanzure | namely fenn | 11:40 |
| kanzure | fenn: please? | 11:41 |
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| JayDugger | Kanzure, if you end up going, you might see if you know a Senior Associate for the Saturday evening Senior Associate Reception. Each S.A. gets to bring one guest. | 11:53 |
| kanzure | noted :) | 12:04 |
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| kanzure | there | 12:25 |
| kanzure | biohackernoob: there's a way to transfer DNA to agrobacterium via flash freezing | 12:25 |
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| kanzure | biohackernoob: there should be some papers on agrobacterium here: http://designfiles.org/papers/ | 12:26 |
| biohackernoob | ya, this website has a simple project that does that: http://www.midthun.net/newpage11.htm | 12:26 |
| kanzure | Light strongly promotes gene transfer from Agrobacterium tumefaciens to plant cells: http://designfiles.org/papers/Light%20strongly%20promotes%20gene%20transfer%20from%20Agrobacterium%20tumefaciens%20to%20plant%20cells.pdf | 12:26 |
| kanzure | among others | 12:26 |
| biohackernoob | it sounds really simple, but is it required to use ampicillin? the project uses it in conjunction with the lux operon | 12:26 |
| biohackernoob | thx for the links :) | 12:26 |
| kanzure | i didn't see anything about flash freezing on that page- looks like a different method | 12:26 |
| kanzure | ampicilin shouldn't be too incredibly hard to acquire | 12:27 |
| biohackernoob | but is it necessary or was that just for the project? | 12:27 |
| biohackernoob | all im interested in is bioluminescece | 12:27 |
| kanzure | this looks like the typical ampicilin resistance project | 12:28 |
| kanzure | ampicilin resistance is added so that you can kill off everything that did *not* get the genes you wanted | 12:28 |
| kanzure | everything that is not resistant to ampicilin will also not have the gene you're trying to throw into it | 12:28 |
| kanzure | thus if you infect the population with ampicilin you will only have your genetically modified organisms left :) | 12:29 |
| biohackernoob | ah ya that would be useful | 12:29 |
| biohackernoob | once a plant has been transformed with a bioluminescence gene, that plant can be then bred and the offspring will exibit that trait right? | 12:34 |
| kanzure | it depends on what you do precisely | 12:36 |
| kanzure | if you inject a plasmid into the plant cells, the plasmid will stay there and in some cases persist over a few generations, but since it's not integrated in the genome it doesn't continue forever | 12:36 |
| kanzure | if you literally modify the genome, then it's in there for good | 12:36 |
| biohackernoob | o i thought the plasmid incorporated itself into the plants genes? | 12:37 |
| biohackernoob | through the use of A. tumefaciens | 12:37 |
| biohackernoob | and should the introducition of the plasmid be in the early stages of the plant's life or when it's fully grown? | 12:39 |
| kanzure | wait wait | 12:39 |
| kanzure | hold on i might have lied. | 12:39 |
| kanzure | there are two types of plasmids | 12:39 |
| kanzure | non-integrating and integrating-plasmids | 12:40 |
| kanzure | integrating-plasmids get put into the genome | 12:40 |
| biohackernoob | ya | 12:40 |
| kanzure | non-integrating plasmids are called episomes (sometimes) | 12:40 |
| kanzure | anyway, sorry about that | 12:41 |
| kanzure | yes some plasmids can be integrated into the genome | 12:41 |
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| biohackernoob | atm im trying to devise the simplest expirement so this can be accomplished.... | 12:42 |
| kanzure | the ampicilin-resistance gene experiments are sometimes performed in high school biology classes | 12:43 |
| biohackernoob | so far im thinking: introduce biolumin. plasmid into A. tumefaciens; introduce A. tumefaciens to the plant in question | 12:43 |
| biohackernoob | i might just skip the ampicilin-res. gene... | 12:43 |
| kanzure | i've never seen anyone handle agrobacterium without a clean room. but this doesn't mean it can't be done (i guess) | 12:44 |
| kanzure | it's also a good idea to just make a clean room in the first place ;) | 12:44 |
| biohackernoob | a clean room? why? | 12:44 |
| biohackernoob | agrobacterium isnt harmful to humans.. | 12:44 |
| biohackernoob | or so i thought | 12:44 |
| biohackernoob | and i dont have the money/supplies to make a clean room :P | 12:45 |
| biohackernoob | ill just... "be careful" XD | 12:45 |
| kanzure | usually the reasons why you make a clean room is so that you don't hurt *the experiment* | 12:45 |
| kanzure | don't get me wrong, i think this is a good project for you | 12:45 |
| biohackernoob | ACTUALLY! | 12:46 |
| biohackernoob | my dad has a cleanroom at his work | 12:46 |
| biohackernoob | if i could use it over the weekend | 12:46 |
| biohackernoob | i might be able to do this properly :P | 12:46 |
| biohackernoob | if not, ill just deal with it | 12:46 |
| biohackernoob | as for the site that i linked you to, can i just replace the E. coli called for in the experiement with A. tumefaciens? | 12:49 |
| biohackernoob | or is some other procedure probably required? | 12:51 |
| kanzure | you will need to use another procedure | 12:52 |
| kanzure | agrobacterium and ecoli are different and grow better under different conditions | 12:52 |
| biohackernoob | ok | 12:52 |
| kanzure | superkuh: did you ever do an agrobacterium project? | 12:53 |
| superkuh | No. | 12:53 |
| superkuh | I have come to the conclusion that any biology projects are currently beyond my means. | 12:53 |
| biohackernoob | that doesnt sound encouraging :( | 12:54 |
| kanzure | biohackernoob: he collected some notes here: http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/000-Bio%20And%20Chemistry/001-agrobacterium/ | 12:54 |
| biohackernoob | cool thanks | 12:56 |
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| biohackernoob | hm... the agrobacterium pdfs seem to be timing out :/ | 12:59 |
| superkuh | My roommate is torrenting movies currently. Try something that can handle intermittent connections. | 13:01 |
| biohackernoob | ill just wait | 13:01 |
| superkuh | You may be waiting for months. Sorry. | 13:02 |
| superkuh | My webserver, thttpd, does bandwidth throttling in a funny way and many browsers think the connection drops. | 13:05 |
| biohackernoob | well it IS downloading | 13:06 |
| biohackernoob | just intermittently as u said | 13:06 |
| biohackernoob | and very slowly :P | 13:06 |
| biohackernoob | oh and for bioluminescence there are lots of different plasmids you can buy... any ideas which are the ones to get? | 13:08 |
| biohackernoob | one source suggested plasmid pUCD615 | 13:08 |
| biohackernoob | which has lux ABCDE i think and doesnt require a promoter | 13:09 |
| biohackernoob | but i couldnt find anywhere to buy that... | 13:09 |
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| kanzure | hey Martyn | 13:15 |
| kanzure | are you on the openmanufacturing mailing list yet? | 13:15 |
| Martyn | Not that I know of | 13:21 |
| Martyn | Open manufacturing isn't a huge focus of my life... | 13:21 |
| kanzure | hackerspaces my friend? | 13:23 |
| Martyn | Yes, but the standardization of protocols and such just isn't something that excites me :) | 13:28 |
| Martyn | I'm going to concentrate on the three spaces I have a personal interest in .. | 13:28 |
| Martyn | NYC Resistor, Noisebridge, and the new studio here in Austin | 13:29 |
| biohackernoob | superkuh 's stuff is a lot to read O.o | 13:29 |
| Martyn | Today, I'm working on a gel electrophoresis tray for a friend in San Francisco | 13:30 |
| biohackernoob | and the protocols are really complex... i was hoping for something a bit simpler | 13:31 |
| Martyn | All kind of fun gluing glass together :) | 13:32 |
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| Aliks | yo | 13:32 |
| Aliks | big room | 13:32 |
| Aliks | wasnt expecting this kind of size | 13:32 |
| Martyn | We could shink it :) | 13:34 |
| Martyn | shrink it .. *chuckle* | 13:34 |
| Martyn | I'll need one of those Dr. Who devices though ... "dimensional stabilizer sonic screwdriver with a fluxtron emitter." | 13:35 |
| Martyn | (or star trek) | 13:35 |
| biohackernoob | so what do u think would happen if i just threw some agrobacterium, agar, and plasmids onto a plate, let it sit for a while, and wait until a colony of agrobacterium is bioluminescent.. then trasfer that colony to a plant? :P | 13:37 |
| biohackernoob | is that overly simple experiment doomed to fail? | 13:37 |
| biohackernoob | or is there even the slightest chance of success? | 13:38 |
| Martyn | zero | 13:39 |
| Martyn | plasmids are not something you can just stably "dump into a plate" | 13:39 |
| biohackernoob | why is that? | 13:39 |
| Martyn | OI | 13:39 |
| biohackernoob | cant the bacterium just take up the plasmid? | 13:39 |
| Martyn | Not kidding in the noob category? The explanation is long, and easily fills two -semesters- worth of bioscience | 13:40 |
| * biohackernoob is basing this off of AP biology from high school.. so bare with him :P | 13:40 | |
| biohackernoob | so bacteria need something to force them to take up the plasmid? | 13:40 |
| Martyn | biohackernoob : A comparison would be .. "Can I throw a supercharger into a garage with a car, shake it up, and expect the supercharger to install itself?" | 13:41 |
| biohackernoob | lol | 13:41 |
| Martyn | That' is -precisely- the right analogy | 13:41 |
| biohackernoob | alright, so what is the #1 that is missing from my over-simplified experiment? | 13:41 |
| Martyn | However, you can educate yourself rather rapidly | 13:41 |
| biohackernoob | i am.. ive read a ton in the past 24 hours | 13:42 |
| biohackernoob | and am still learning :) | 13:42 |
| biohackernoob | i just have an obsession with over-simplified experiments | 13:42 |
| Martyn | What you are missing is a basic understanding of how plasmid transfter between bacteria works, and how the genetics of plants work, and why bacteria and plants are very different. | 13:42 |
| Martyn | You may be more interested in reading about the Tobacco Mosaic virus, and how it can be used as a carrier of gene sequences into tomatoes | 13:42 |
| biohackernoob | hm... i was talking about the parts in the experiment.. i understand the basics of that kind of stuff, enough to understand. i just need help devising an experiment, preferably ultra-simple | 13:43 |
| katsmeow-afk | bare != bear | 13:43 |
| Martyn | There is also now a High School / Early College level set of kits you can use to study how the gene for luminol into a tomato | 13:44 |
| Martyn | everything you need comes in the kit, and there is enough material in the kit to repeat the experiment a couple times | 13:44 |
| biohackernoob | but it's restricted to tomatoes? | 13:44 |
| Martyn | (It uses a phage, which has already been prepared for you) | 13:44 |
| kanzure | maybe he was being metaphorical about throwing things together randomly | 13:44 |
| Martyn | It's not that it's restricted to tomatoes .. it's just that the /vector/ (phage) only infects tomatos | 13:45 |
| biohackernoob | hm... | 13:45 |
| kanzure | hello Aliks | 13:45 |
| Martyn | It's still Nobel-level science to inject genes for flourecense into various creatures. It's -very- useful, but it's not random. | 13:45 |
| biohackernoob | and kanzure, in effect, i wasnt :P i'm curious as to what the SIMPLEST experiement for bioluminescence in plants would be | 13:46 |
| Martyn | The fact just is that it -isn't- simple. | 13:46 |
| kanzure | Martyn: it's not a nobel experiment, sorry | 13:46 |
| biohackernoob | its not simple, but can be made simpler i'm betting | 13:47 |
| Martyn | kanzure: It's hard bioscience to put the flourecense gene into a creature that doesn't yet have it. It's -far- from trivial, and involves inserting a long sequence into a metabolic pathway. | 13:47 |
| kanzure | how is it "hard" | 13:48 |
| kanzure | sorry, i think you're just bullshitting the newbie | 13:48 |
| kanzure | have you done this ever? | 13:48 |
| biohackernoob | and you're underestimating me :/ | 13:49 |
| biohackernoob | which is understandable | 13:49 |
| biohackernoob | but i'm definitely not stupid and am willing to challenge myself | 13:49 |
| kanzure | biohackernoob: well he's right that it takes a lot of hard work and a lot of reading :) | 13:49 |
| biohackernoob | one of the challenges being: to devise the simpliest experiment for bioluminescence that can be done at home | 13:50 |
| biohackernoob | thats the goal anyway... | 13:50 |
| kanzure | well if you wanted that, get some fireflies :) | 13:50 |
| Martyn | kanzure : Yes, with my father, and Nobel Laurate Dr. H. G. Khorana in fact. | 13:51 |
| biohackernoob | well, i wanted bioluminescence in plants to be exact... | 13:51 |
| biohackernoob | animals not so much | 13:51 |
| Martyn | kanzure : I grew up with bioscience in my house. My dad is the chair of Biochemistry at UCSC, and I nearly went in the direction of biochem/molecular bio instead of computer science. | 13:52 |
| Martyn | I still do TA work for my dad from time to time, like correct tests. | 13:52 |
| Martyn | NOW .. | 13:54 |
| Martyn | as I was saying | 13:54 |
| kanzure | ha ha | 13:54 |
| Martyn | You can buy kits these days that take the extremely hard thing (inserting a gene sequence into a vector) and make it easy by giving you a pre-prepared vector | 13:54 |
| biohackernoob | but is there such a kit for Plasmid pUCD615 in A. tumefaciens? | 13:55 |
| Martyn | I don't think you have to be related to a university or high school to buy them .. but I could be wrong on that point. | 13:55 |
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| biohackernoob | well i attend UCLA, so im sure connections can be made if necessary | 13:56 |
| kanzure | Martyn: i haven't seen a place that ships plasmids to anyone, sadly :( | 13:56 |
| kanzure | biohackernoob: oh you're in a university? that helps | 13:56 |
| Martyn | Any reason you want to insert the gene for an antibiotic resistance into a bacteria? | 13:56 |
| biohackernoob | nope, all i care about is the bioluminescence | 13:57 |
| kanzure | Martyn: he didn't want to do that for some reason. i tried explaining to him that it helps to pick out the bacteria that didn't get the new plasmids. | 13:57 |
| Martyn | kanzure : "plasmid" "plasmid carrying strains" | 13:57 |
| kanzure | Martyn: i meant "just anyone" | 13:57 |
| biohackernoob | well im just saying if i have to, then fine | 13:57 |
| kanzure | Martyn: of course they ship to universities and businesses :) sorry for the ambiguity | 13:57 |
| biohackernoob | otherwise, i could leave it out to simplify the experiement | 13:57 |
| biohackernoob | so the resistance gene can be in, or out i dont care atm | 13:58 |
| Martyn | Okay, look .. if you hold on for a second, I'll call my dad and see where he gets the lab kits for the BMB100 course he teaches. | 13:59 |
| Martyn | I'll be "away" for about 10-20 minutes | 13:59 |
| kanzure | but that's a professor | 13:59 |
| Martyn | Yes, but I've ordered the DNA PCR experiment kits before to teach a boy scout troop, and I definitely am /not/ | 14:00 |
| kanzure | my guesses: fisher scientific, carolina supply co., merck, sigma-aldrich (last) | 14:00 |
| kanzure | ah well that was probably from carolina | 14:00 |
| Martyn | and I didn't use my dad's association to buy them | 14:00 |
| Martyn | no, not from Carolina .. | 14:00 |
| kanzure | hrm | 14:00 |
| kanzure | well let's see what he has to recommend :) | 14:00 |
| Martyn | It's a bioscience place over in North Carolina | 14:01 |
| Martyn | Ah, he uses an ATP Bioluminescence assay kit from Roche for the experiment ... still requires lab equpment you don't have acess to. | 14:05 |
| biohackernoob | hm... | 14:06 |
| kanzure | roche. huh | 14:07 |
| Martyn | He is reminding me that the bioluminescence experiment I'm thinking of involves a bacteria with the Lux sequence ( Tomato Cancer bacteria ) to see if the tomatos are resistant or not to the bacteria | 14:08 |
| Martyn | So it's not actually inserting the gene sequence into the tomato, it's inserting the gene sequence into the bacteria using a bacteriophage, and it's a complex and low-yield experiment to get the sequence into the bacteria in the first place. | 14:09 |
| Martyn | I'm also getting the standard lecture about doing experiments in my garage. -laugh- | 14:10 |
| Martyn | (as in "DON'T!" ) | 14:10 |
| biohackernoob | heh | 14:10 |
| Martyn | kanzure : How much gene sequencing have you done, out of curiosity? Have you done lab work to do gene splicing? | 14:12 |
| kanzure | i have not done splicing | 14:12 |
| kanzure | i have not done sequencing either | 14:12 |
| kanzure | fyi everyone the skdb server is back up for a few minutes. was showing someone else and thought i'd drop a link | 14:14 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego/ | 14:14 |
| Martyn | Then why the _heck_ would you take the position that it's not Nobel class science? Just two years ago Martin J. Evans (and two others) won the nobel prize for creating a knockout gene mouse | 14:16 |
| Martyn | The whole point of the Lux sequence, and why the Lux sequence itself is Nobel-class science, is that it has provided a metabolic pathway to find the specific action of gene sequences. It's still cutting edge science, and far from easy to do! | 14:17 |
| kanzure | that was for gene targeting | 14:17 |
| Martyn | Inserting the Lux sequence in a specific location is an incredibly hard task, and one that any grad-level student can still persue to get a PhD. | 14:18 |
| biohackernoob | here is something interesting: http://www.genome.ou.edu/protocol_book/protocol_adxF.html | 14:18 |
| biohackernoob | heat shock is what the high school project was about | 14:18 |
| biohackernoob | and apparently it doesnt only work on e. coli | 14:19 |
| kanzure | usually it's more important that you put the promoter somewhere near to the target gene so what you do is put the promoter next to the gene sequence you want | 14:19 |
| biohackernoob | maybe it could be tried on agrobacterium? | 14:19 |
| kanzure | and then put in the entire sequence just about anywhere | 14:19 |
| Martyn | Okay, enough time online .. I /need/ to get back to working on this gel tray | 14:20 |
| kanzure | cad files please? :) | 14:20 |
| kanzure | and if you gimme a mesh i'll bonk you over the head :p | 14:21 |
| biohackernoob | ok, well, kanzure what do u think of heat shock to agrobacterium? | 14:21 |
| Martyn | Cad files? It's just cut glass :) | 14:21 |
| Martyn | There is nothing I'm doing that involves more than using a glass cutter, a pair of glass pliers, a heat torch, or glass glue... | 14:21 |
| kanzure | yes but not everyone wants to do it manually forever | 14:22 |
| kanzure | sigh | 14:22 |
| kanzure | (i'm glad that you do, though) | 14:23 |
| Martyn | http://www.6mgel.com/K2020_600.jpg | 14:23 |
| Martyn | It's not that different from this one .. | 14:23 |
| Martyn | Although I don't make it from plastic ... | 14:23 |
| Martyn | some people have been making it out of acrylic, and have discovered that acrylic will spoil some runs | 14:24 |
| kanzure | any reason why? i see lots of people making theirs with acrylic these days | 14:24 |
| kanzure | heh | 14:24 |
| Martyn | (the best thing to use is polycarbonate) | 14:24 |
| kanzure | ah i see | 14:24 |
| kanzure | i didn't know that about acrylic | 14:24 |
| Martyn | When you are trying to separate things above a molecular weight of 4000, it's not an issue | 14:24 |
| Martyn | when you are starting to use cutters to get below 800, then acrylic has some properties that get in the way | 14:25 |
| kanzure | does it depend on the gel too? | 14:30 |
| kanzure | wait there should be a paper on this by now | 14:31 |
| kanzure | comparing different gels vs. voltage vs. box material | 14:31 |
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| biohackernoob | if i took the experiment from here: http://www.midthun.net/newpage11.htm , swapped out e. coli for agrobacterium, and tried multiple cultures at different temperatures, according to this: http://www.genome.ou.edu/protocol_book/protocol_adxF.html it should work | 14:39 |
| biohackernoob | even if the rate of success will be incredibly low.. doing it many times should yield some sort of result | 14:40 |
| biohackernoob | then once u have the agrobacterium, u could just breed them so u can try multiple trials on various plants | 14:41 |
| Martyn | *shakes head* | 14:44 |
| Martyn | Just because a bacteria infects a plant, does not mean there will be exchange of DNA | 14:44 |
| Martyn | you need a vector you know will do the job. | 14:45 |
| biohackernoob | ya, agrobacterium is the most common vector for transection in plants | 14:46 |
| kanzure | agrobacterium specifically invades cells and has a pore that DNA translocates out of, IIRC | 14:46 |
| kanzure | the protein pore is pretty awesome btw, i've been trying to figure out all of the genes that encode it so it can be ported to other organisms in the future | 14:46 |
| * kanzure loads his paper dir | 14:46 | |
| kanzure | here we go: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/competence_proteins_ADP1.jpg | 14:47 |
| kanzure | (this was not agrobacterium however) | 14:47 |
| kanzure | er wait, sorry | 14:47 |
| kanzure | i'm getting things mixed up | 14:47 |
| kanzure | the competence proteins listed there are for making a specific cell "competent" in the sense that it takes up and absorbs DNA naturally | 14:47 |
| kanzure | and it isn't the same exact one used in agrobacterium | 14:47 |
| kanzure | in particular that was from acinetobacter: http://heybryan.org/docs/Acinetobacter_instead_of_ecoli.html | 14:48 |
| kanzure | paper: http://heybryan.org/docs/Acinetobacter_ADP1.pdf | 14:48 |
| biohackernoob | hm.. after reading some stuff about transfection, apparently you can do it without a vector | 14:48 |
| biohackernoob | you just insert the plasmid directly | 14:49 |
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| biohackernoob | lower chance of success, but still works O.o | 14:49 |
| kanzure | hey Aliks | 14:49 |
| Aliks | back for a bit, got booted | 14:49 |
| Aliks | lo kanzure | 14:49 |
| kanzure | la | 14:49 |
| Aliks | whats going on in the hplus world? | 14:49 |
| kanzure | right now we're talking about "natural competence" in organisms where they take in DNA from their environment | 14:50 |
| biohackernoob | im asking tons of rediculous questions is whats going on :P | 14:50 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/books/papers/competence_proteins_ADP1.jpg | 14:50 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/docs/Acinetobacter_instead_of_ecoli.html | 14:50 |
| Aliks | ah | 14:50 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/docs/Acinetobacter_ADP1.pdf | 14:50 |
| kanzure | just some links from the last few moments | 14:50 |
| * Aliks nods. | 14:50 | |
| Aliks | you guys involved in DIYbio? | 14:50 |
| Aliks | your name looks familiar | 14:50 |
| biohackernoob | but apparently i can skip the agrobacteria step | 14:51 |
| kanzure | Aliks: yes, we're everywhere | 14:51 |
| Aliks | lol | 14:51 |
| Aliks | thats funny | 14:51 |
| Martyn | okay, first box finished .. 9 to go | 14:51 |
| biohackernoob | it says with calcium phosphate, you can transfect DNA directly into a cell | 14:51 |
| biohackernoob | the likelyhood of incorporation into the genome is low, but happens | 14:52 |
| kanzure | yes that's a very popular method | 14:52 |
| biohackernoob | why dont i just trying that with like 200 samples!? | 14:52 |
| biohackernoob | as long as a single one does it, i can breed the plants to my hearts desire :D | 14:52 |
| kanzure | http://protocol-online.org/ is your friend btw | 14:52 |
| Aliks | hey bryan, your pics take a while to load man.. gotta reduce resolution lol | 14:53 |
| kanzure | Aliks: yeah it's being served up on my home internet connection | 14:53 |
| kanzure | any pictures in particular? i might have them hosted on a faster server somewhere | 14:53 |
| Aliks | the one on the right top | 14:53 |
| Aliks | that makes sense then | 14:53 |
| kanzure | ok try this: http://designfiles.org/papers/competence_proteins_ADP1.jpg | 14:53 |
| Aliks | just the home host thing | 14:53 |
| Aliks | yeah the pic is small actually, 53k | 14:53 |
| kanzure | that should be so fast it blueshifts your face off | 14:53 |
| kanzure | er, redshifts :) | 14:53 |
| Martyn | *groan* | 14:54 |
| kanzure | ha | 14:54 |
| kanzure | i'm sorry :) | 14:54 |
| Aliks | did I get disconnected again or did you guys get quiet? | 14:56 |
| kanzure | what was the last message you received | 14:56 |
| Aliks | nah I'm connected | 14:57 |
| Aliks | you guys were just quiet | 14:57 |
| Aliks | lol | 14:57 |
| kanzure | hi doug | 14:57 |
| kanzure | ew mysql | 14:57 |
| Aliks | meh it works | 14:57 |
| Aliks | I don't really care about what db I use, I adapt to whatever the needs are of the project | 14:57 |
| kanzure | do you do xhtml/css/javascript/ajax pretty-stuff? :) | 14:57 |
| Aliks | and mysql has worked find | 14:57 |
| Aliks | er fine | 14:57 |
| kanzure | everyone always uses a database | 14:58 |
| Aliks | I do pretty much everything web based | 14:58 |
| kanzure | yes but do you like doing it? i hate web page design/development and need help | 14:58 |
| Aliks | also I do C/C++ etc. | 14:58 |
| Aliks | learning biology & chemistry | 14:58 |
| Aliks | yeah I like it | 14:58 |
| Aliks | leaning toward doing things more directly toward bringing about the singularity/longevity escape velocity lately | 14:59 |
| kanzure | yay is there any way i can get you to help out with some diybio-related websites that are in desperate need of not sucking | 14:59 |
| Aliks | but I still like it | 14:59 |
| Aliks | yeah sure | 14:59 |
| Aliks | I can let you in on a preview of one I just finished up | 14:59 |
| kanzure | Aliks: http://heybryan.org:8081/ this is the front-end website to skdb ("apt-get for hardware") | 14:59 |
| kanzure | have you been keeping up with the project? i'd be happy to explain if not | 14:59 |
| Aliks | I've been pretty distracted with school (check education part of my personal site) | 15:00 |
| kanzure | do you not want to share those links with everyone? | 15:00 |
| Aliks | but I'm familiar with omnifab | 15:00 |
| Aliks | it's not quite ready yet | 15:00 |
| kanzure | okay | 15:00 |
| Aliks | another 24-48 hours it will have its final content | 15:00 |
| kanzure | well we're all friends of aubrey's.. :) | 15:00 |
| Aliks | I have a partner who's workin on content | 15:00 |
| kanzure | Aliks: you might want to watch out, the title can be misconstrued to "campaign against /the/ aging" | 15:01 |
| kanzure | *picture of an aging person* | 15:01 |
| kanzure | you can see how this might backfire | 15:01 |
| Aliks | lol | 15:01 |
| Aliks | hahaha | 15:01 |
| Aliks | hadnt thought of that | 15:01 |
| Aliks | I'll see how it goes | 15:01 |
| Aliks | if we need to clarify I can change it up | 15:01 |
| biohackernoob | http://www.its.caltech.edu/~bjorker/Ca-P_Transfection_MDCK.pdf this looks simple enough | 15:01 |
| kanzure | Aliks: one of my recent tools that i like is this: http://fivesecondtest.com/test/nR5qw7_w | 15:02 |
| Aliks | we've been tweaking it a lot the last few days | 15:02 |
| Martyn | Two finished, 8 to go | 15:02 |
| kanzure | Aliks: the result of that is this: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/screenshots/2009-12-24-gnusha-results.png | 15:02 |
| Martyn | I love glass glue, at least when the fixture is working right and holding all the pieces in place | 15:02 |
| kanzure | i've been using it for every design mockup i've been doing lately | 15:02 |
| Martyn | it's as fast as cyanoacrylate | 15:02 |
| Aliks | cool | 15:03 |
| Aliks | but yeah, just a quick bio on me... I have been pretty much all comp sci/web dev until a few years ago when I started to learn about chemistry, biology, other sciences... trying to get involved in computational chemistry for anti-aging drug design | 15:04 |
| Aliks | probably wouldve leaned more toward chem/bio earlier if the opportunity had been there, but we all do what we can when we can I guess | 15:04 |
| kanzure | cool | 15:04 |
| kanzure | drug design is a fun field | 15:04 |
| Aliks | yeah | 15:04 |
| kanzure | you seem to have the same web background as me | 15:05 |
| kanzure | i was a php script kiddie back in the day :( | 15:05 |
| Aliks | haha | 15:05 |
| Aliks | yeah, but just for the record, I treat PHP as if it was a more complex language | 15:05 |
| Aliks | I do a lot of db intensive work | 15:06 |
| Aliks | like my current project is completely automating the community college to university transfer planning process | 15:06 |
| kanzure | fun | 15:06 |
| Aliks | students punch in their major, schools they want to go to, where they assessed in english/math, max # of units to take per semester | 15:06 |
| Aliks | it goes and grabs the transfer requirements, then the prerequisites (all of this was a pain in the ass with no cooperation from the bureaucracy at the college) | 15:07 |
| Aliks | (easier to scrape their data than get a more usable format) | 15:07 |
| kanzure | yep i've written one too many scrapers in my time.. | 15:07 |
| Aliks | and then it will likely use a travelling salesman type algorithm to identify the best path | 15:07 |
| Aliks | unless I can find a better optimisation | 15:07 |
| Aliks | shrug | 15:07 |
| kanzure | that's actually what i started to do when i signed up at utexas.edu | 15:08 |
| Aliks | yeah my main interest now in web is doing stuff to indirectly move forward the singularity/LEV | 15:08 |
| kanzure | i saw this huge list of course offerings in the schedule | 15:08 |
| kanzure | and had no idea what i wanted to take | 15:08 |
| * Aliks nods. | 15:08 | |
| kanzure | and not only that, but what would the most optimal schedule be | 15:08 |
| Aliks | right | 15:08 |
| kanzure | so i scraped the data set and got cracking :) | 15:08 |
| Aliks | its totally nuts how many courses places offer | 15:08 |
| Aliks | and then to expect people to be able to transfer etc. | 15:08 |
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| Aliks | and every school/school combination has different agreements | 15:08 |
| Aliks | its ridiculous | 15:09 |
| Aliks | I'd like to see a DIYuniversity. Some sort of grassroots funded, accredited university that offers courses online for cheap after it gets off the ground. | 15:09 |
| kanzure | there's a few people in here working on that.. not as the project lead, but somewhere involved | 15:09 |
| Aliks | go out of its way to make the process easier on students | 15:09 |
| kanzure | uh, now if only i could remember who it was | 15:09 |
| Aliks | really? | 15:09 |
| Aliks | thats crazy | 15:10 |
| Utopiah | Aliks: http://www.ocwconsortium.org/ | 15:10 |
| kanzure | yes there was one guy from p2puniversity | 15:10 |
| kanzure | nah it's not ocw | 15:10 |
| Aliks | this must be the place to be... lots of smart people crawling around this place | 15:10 |
| kanzure | and another from wikiversity | 15:10 |
| kanzure | Aliks: i hoard brains | 15:10 |
| Utopiah | the p2p uni project was linked to OCW afaik | 15:10 |
| kanzure | huh okay | 15:10 |
| Utopiah | (can't find their blog anymore though) | 15:10 |
| Aliks | only thing about OCW is you dont get an actual degree... we need to arrange an accredited institution to pull it all together and offer degrees | 15:11 |
| Utopiah | Aliks: my related links if you are interested http://fabien.benetou.fr/Content/Education#EducationWebsites | 15:11 |
| Aliks | and if you're like me you probably have gained twice as much knowledge outside of college as in | 15:11 |
| Aliks | and its a shame we cant get any paper for that | 15:11 |
| Aliks | thanks Utopiah | 15:11 |
| kanzure | you can get fake diplomas from the web | 15:11 |
| Utopiah | diploma mills... | 15:12 |
| Aliks | kanzure yeah but who wants that? | 15:12 |
| Aliks | I mean for real | 15:12 |
| kanzure | people who are screwed | 15:12 |
| Aliks | real, accredited degree, but with DIY/noninstitutional mentality | 15:12 |
| Aliks | shrug | 15:12 |
| Utopiah | Aliks: check http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Education too | 15:13 |
| Utopiah | link I was looking for first was : http://www.p2pu.org/ | 15:14 |
| kanzure | aha i knew it existed and wasn't just a figment of my imagination :) | 15:14 |
| biohackernoob | ok lets say i transfect a bioluminescent gene into a plant cell. once that process is complete, will the cell begin to produce light quickly afterwards? or does it take a long time? | 15:15 |
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| kanzure | wb Martyn | 15:17 |
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| Martyn | 5 done .. aaaand now I'm out of glue | 15:17 |
| Martyn | *sigh* | 15:17 |
| Martyn | Or more specifically, I can't find the new tube of glue I -just- bought last week | 15:17 |
| kanzure | where'd you buy it? name? details | 15:19 |
| Martyn | 3M Duro Glass Weld | 15:21 |
| Martyn | it's a clear, UV curing glass glue | 15:21 |
| Martyn | used for glass to glass bonds | 15:21 |
| Martyn | It's a urethane acrylate ester | 15:23 |
| Martyn | I think it's trade name is Ritelok | 15:23 |
| biohackernoob | yes/no,,,,? | 15:27 |
| * biohackernoob just realized he didnt ask a yes/ no question :P | 15:31 | |
| biohackernoob | so quick or take a long time? | 15:32 |
| kanzure | it really depends. sometimes gene expression can switch on and off within a few minutes | 15:33 |
| biohackernoob | ok so i wont have to wait 24 hours or anything | 15:37 |
| biohackernoob | ? | 15:37 |
| biohackernoob | if i wait 5-20 min i should be good right? | 15:38 |
| biohackernoob | maybe 5-30? | 15:38 |
| kanzure | waiting 24h requires that you wait at least 5min and at least 30min so what's the problem? either way you're waiting at least 5min | 15:38 |
| biohackernoob | or better yet, i could experiment with that and find out how long it takes XD | 15:38 |
| kanzure | and in the worst case you're waiting 24h anyway | 15:39 |
| biohackernoob | true | 15:39 |
| biohackernoob | ok, so back to selecting a plasmid.... so far the only good one i know of is: pUCD615 but i can't find where to purchase it, or anything like it for that matter | 15:40 |
| biohackernoob | just found another.. pHK555, and there seems to be more info about it. reading.... | 15:49 |
| Martyn | biohackernoob : I know this may sound like a complete shot in the dark ... but have you considered finding someone who does these experiments and having them mentor you? | 15:53 |
| biohackernoob | not really... because i figured since im just doing this for kicks that they wont be interested in wasting their time teaching me :/ maybe im wrong? | 15:54 |
| Martyn | biohackernoob : If you're in the Austin area, I'm sure there are plenty of researchers in the University of Texas who .. if approached politely .. perhaps. | 15:54 |
| biohackernoob | im at UCLA | 15:55 |
| Martyn | biohackernoob : Even better, there is a large bioscience program there | 15:55 |
| Martyn | What year? | 15:56 |
| biohackernoob | but how do i approach someone with something like this? hey, i want to make glowing plants for fun. can you help me? | 15:56 |
| Martyn | Pretty much | 15:56 |
| biohackernoob | freshman undergrad :S | 15:56 |
| Martyn | Maybe better, find someone who is doing something related and ask "Hi, I'd like to know more about what you do..." | 15:56 |
| biohackernoob | but then they ask what experience i have, and all i've done is AP chem and AP bio.... and im a comp sci major :P | 15:58 |
| genehackerAFK | so bioluminescent genes in plants tend to be disappointing | 15:58 |
| kanzure | nah, they like helping hands | 15:58 |
| kanzure | i was working in a molecular biology lab before i was a freshman | 15:59 |
| genehackerAFK | so don't be trying to make some luminescent roses to light the garden path just yet | 15:59 |
| kanzure | they wanted to assimilate my brain early or something | 15:59 |
| Martyn | Heh.. no | 15:59 |
| biohackernoob | but i kinda want to avoid doing work for other people if possible... this is just something i want to try out XD | 16:00 |
| Martyn | You're not likely to be able to make glowing roses .. /flourescent/ roses, maybe | 16:00 |
| kanzure | they will especially like you if you're willing to wash dishes | 16:00 |
| biohackernoob | why not glowing roses? | 16:00 |
| genehackerAFK | you can make glowing roses | 16:00 |
| genehackerAFK | they will be very dim | 16:00 |
| biohackernoob | why dim? | 16:00 |
| genehackerAFK | I looked into doing something like this once | 16:00 |
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| Martyn | genehackerAFK : There isn't a lot of flow in the petals | 16:01 |
| Martyn | it's kind of hard to get lots of ATP in a petal. | 16:01 |
| genehackerAFK | well the stalk will glow a bit | 16:01 |
| kanzure | biohackernoob: if you want, tell us where you are, and someone in here probably knows someone who can introduce you to someone appropriate, or give a recommendation | 16:01 |
| Martyn | *nod* | 16:01 |
| kanzure | if you found your way in here i'm sure they will be happy to help | 16:01 |
| genehackerAFK | luciferase in plants tends to be disappointing is all I know | 16:01 |
| biohackernoob | i said, UCLA | 16:02 |
| kanzure | oh sorry | 16:02 |
| kanzure | yeah we have goons in LA | 16:02 |
| biohackernoob | im sure you do :P | 16:02 |
| Martyn | On the other hand, they already -have- bred in a nicely flourescing pigment into a rose. I saw a couple of them at a flower show in Fort Lauderdale "The future of roses..." | 16:02 |
| kanzure | let's see.. um. | 16:02 |
| Martyn | Sure, it needs a UV light ... but hey ... | 16:02 |
| biohackernoob | im just not too interested in committing time to other ppls projects... im not trying to be selfish or anything, i just have other hobbies too.... | 16:03 |
| genehackerAFK | hobbies like? | 16:03 |
| kanzure | some times people are cool enough to let you in on the lab meetings and just being around to talk with | 16:03 |
| kanzure | other times people aren't so awesome | 16:03 |
| biohackernoob | building shortwave radios, programming computer games, ect | 16:03 |
| genehackerAFK | oh | 16:03 |
| genehackerAFK | are you taking o-chem? | 16:03 |
| biohackernoob | nope | 16:03 |
| genehackerAFK | Martyn what are you doing with glass glue, are you perhaps doing something with high grade optics? | 16:07 |
| Martyn | I'm building gel elecrophoresis boxes for a friend in San Francisco | 16:10 |
| Martyn | I need to finish 10, then pop them in the mail to him tomorrow morning | 16:10 |
| Martyn | ( I found my tube of glue in the end .. it was still in the trunk of the car, hiding under the "Dominon: seaside" game box) | 16:11 |
| Martyn | I love UV curing glues... | 16:15 |
| Martyn | easy to position the pieces in the fixure, until I'm satisfied that there are no bubbles or gaps .... then turn on the UV lamp and /poof/ | 16:15 |
| Martyn | 30 seconds later .. hard glue | 16:15 |
| genehackerAFK | oh | 16:18 |
| kanzure | genehackerAFK: when are you back in austin | 16:36 |
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| kanzure | http://www.thinkgeek.com/tauntaun taun taun sleeping bag | 17:04 |
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| biohackernoob | o man HEPES buffer is expensive O.o | 17:13 |
| biohackernoob | like $200 for 500 mL :( | 17:13 |
| biohackernoob | i only need like 60mL.... | 17:13 |
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| kanzure | observation of molecular orbital gating: http://designfiles.org/papers/Observation%20of%20molecular%20orbital%20gating.pdf | 17:21 |
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| kanzure | ybit: are you alive today? | 17:42 |
| nsh | eiyo | 18:06 |
| kanzure | neia? | 18:07 |
| genehackerAFK | isn't ybit in oklahoma? | 18:17 |
| kanzure | alabama | 18:18 |
| kanzure | todo: http://www.guykawasaki.com/ | 18:34 |
| kanzure | interesting how longevity-interests recently exploded on diybio | 18:57 |
| kanzure | i didn't know there was that many of us lurking | 18:57 |
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| kanzure | hey Spance3000 | 20:19 |
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| kanzure | fenn: freecad seems to be using opencascade | 20:43 |
| kanzure | and it's terrible/hard to use | 21:07 |
| kanzure | god why can't i have a simple "click to rotate" function in something using opencascade | 21:08 |
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| ybit | heyo | 22:26 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/~bryan/screenshots/2009-12-26-skeinforge.png | 22:27 |
| kanzure | holy shit wtf is wrong with this world | 22:27 |
| fenn | yarr. the backlog has defeated me | 22:27 |
| ybit | you suck | 22:28 |
| * ybit just got through with it | 22:28 | |
| ybit | fenn: all you need to know is that you are needed at some conf | 22:28 |
| fenn | too many n00bs | 22:28 |
| kanzure | noob to boob ratio is off :( | 22:28 |
| fenn | taxin' my spirit | 22:28 |
| ybit | i'm kind of alive, i should be out of it in about an hour as this trazadone kicks in | 22:29 |
| * ybit was cutting down trees with a chainsaw today | 22:29 | |
| fenn | omg skeinforge is so terrible | 22:30 |
| katsmeow-afk | making a log fabhouse, ybit? | 22:30 |
| ybit | kanzure: ask me to finish that script when i'm not lazy, i.e. after the weekend is over | 22:30 |
| ybit | katsmeow-afk: heh, no, had to cut down some trees so that we can haul dirt in | 22:31 |
| katsmeow-afk | o | 22:31 |
| katsmeow-afk | large log fabhouse might look nice | 22:31 |
| ybit | need to fix a part on the tractor so i can bush hog, then we'll bring in the bulldozer | 22:31 |
| * ybit isn't a fan of wooden houses | 22:32 | |
| ybit | i do have a trailer i'm considering putting a few hundred in | 22:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | slab the logs and attach to the sides of a house that's less fuel-looking | 22:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | sawn length wise | 22:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | 2 "logs" for the price of one | 22:33 |
| ybit | ..so i can go ahead and live on the property... but i need power... and i don't want to pay for a damn pole to be placed on the land, because supposedly once it's there, it's there for good | 22:33 |
| ybit | and supposedly it's about $30/10ft | 22:33 |
| katsmeow-afk | how much power do you require? | 22:33 |
| ybit | i haven't figured it up yet | 22:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | well, then i cannot suggest anything yet | 22:34 |
| ybit | feel free to suggest away for the fun of it :) | 22:34 |
| ybit | it's irc, it's allowed | 22:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | i was gonna say run s trech 2ft down where the driveway goes, before it's graveled/cherted, and lay in 2 inch cheap grey pvc to pull wire in later | 22:35 |
| katsmeow-afk | then put a small service hut at the road for the utilities to hit | 22:35 |
| katsmeow-afk | lay in the water too | 22:35 |
| katsmeow-afk | at 2ft, you sholdn't have freeze problems | 22:36 |
| katsmeow-afk | you can pull 100amp service, triplex, in 2inch pvc, iirc | 22:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | and the triplex is cheap,, rather | 22:37 |
| ybit | we have large metal tubes | 22:38 |
| ybit | i don't even know what they are called | 22:38 |
| katsmeow-afk | conduit? | 22:38 |
| ybit | ah | 22:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | i set a trailer service pole (10ft tall) at the road, all plumbing and electrical on my property is mine, utilities stop at that pole | 22:39 |
| ybit | i was googling away, closes thing i could find was 'square tubing' | 22:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | they wanted to put two poles on my place | 22:39 |
| ybit | it's been sitting on the land for quite some time unused, we have various sizes of conduits | 22:39 |
| -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 22:40 | |
| Aliks | finally back | 22:40 |
| katsmeow-afk | i wanted all service underground, they said no, i said i'd do it myself then, and i did | 22:40 |
| Aliks | sheesh | 22:40 |
| kanzure | hello aliks | 22:40 |
| ybit | hi Aliks | 22:40 |
| Aliks | hey kanzure | 22:40 |
| Aliks | my laptop got unplugged and its battery is totally dead | 22:40 |
| ybit | kanzure: i've been into wikiversity and p2pu, maybe i'm the guy you were referencing | 22:40 |
| Aliks | then had to go somewhere | 22:40 |
| kanzure | ybit: sadly not | 22:40 |
| kanzure | ybit: there was someone else | 22:40 |
| ybit | though michel knows the guy over p2pu | 22:41 |
| Aliks | you were mentioning something in need of some web dev... feel free to shoot me some info on what it needs | 22:41 |
| ybit | it needs a good dosage of web 2.0 | 22:41 |
| kanzure | Aliks: did you see it? http://heybryan.org:8081 | 22:42 |
| kanzure | it looks terrible because it is | 22:42 |
| ybit | s/omnifab/fabhow | 22:42 |
| kanzure | whatever | 22:42 |
| ybit | speaking of p2pu, i find it funny that i'm the only one ever in #p2pu even though it's mentioned on the site as a point of contact | 22:44 |
| kanzure | i can't remember who PeerInfinity is | 22:44 |
| kanzure | but i think he's the contact point for that? | 22:44 |
| ybit | "IRC/Webchat: #p2pu on irc.freenode.net, or use the web client at http://p2pu.org/chat" | 22:44 |
| kanzure | Aliks: so yeah, it's supposed to be a website to kill http://thingiverse.com/ and http://instructables.com/ | 22:45 |
| kanzure | in the backend it's running OpenCASCADE | 22:45 |
| kanzure | so it's literally a CAD kernel exposed to the web | 22:45 |
| kanzure | projects are maintained in git repositories | 22:45 |
| Aliks | back, was making update to my other site | 22:57 |
| Aliks | yeah I did see it last time | 22:57 |
| Aliks | looking at your competition now | 22:57 |
| kanzure | it's not "exact" competition since the sites serve different purposes, but it's the closest thing i can point you at | 22:57 |
| kanzure | i actually hate their designs | 22:57 |
| kanzure | we just need to look better than that crap | 22:57 |
| Aliks | right | 22:58 |
| kanzure | or "not suck as much as presently" | 22:58 |
| Aliks | got any ideas what you want it to look like? | 22:58 |
| kanzure | anyway, if you drop some tips or ideas that would be awesome | 22:58 |
| fenn | Aliks: i personally want something simple and reliable | 22:59 |
| fenn | even on weird browsers that don't have every stupid proprietary plugin installed | 22:59 |
| Aliks | http://www.templatesbox.com/ for-pay templates (to browse), http://www.oswd.org (free) | 22:59 |
| kanzure | haha everyone i talk with just says take someone else's template | 22:59 |
| kanzure | i should just take thingiverse's and scratch out their name | 22:59 |
| Aliks | well or get a better one | 22:59 |
| Aliks | and the thing is, basically I'm saying, find a template that's CLOSE to what you want | 22:59 |
| Aliks | and then it's easier to tweak it | 23:00 |
| Aliks | rather than start from nothing and change it 7 times | 23:00 |
| kanzure | back in my day, we wrote our xhtml from scratch | 23:00 |
| Aliks | I still do | 23:00 |
| Aliks | lol | 23:00 |
| kanzure | god i feel old | 23:00 |
| Aliks | I dont use any editors other than a color highlighter | 23:00 |
| Aliks | mainly I look at templates for ideas/inspiration, since I'm more of a coder than a "designer" | 23:00 |
| fenn | xhtml? what's that? some newfangled html extension? | 23:00 |
| kanzure | no | 23:00 |
| Aliks | I can do some design, but it's not my #1 specialty | 23:01 |
| fenn | </oldfart> | 23:01 |
| kanzure | xhtml is strict html | 23:01 |
| kanzure | well, sort of | 23:01 |
| kanzure | i don't know the exact w3 history | 23:01 |
| Aliks | but yeah I never ever use the XHTML that comes with a template even if I end up using their layout... usually I just rechop the images and make my own CSS/xhtml to display it | 23:01 |
| kanzure | how do you chop your images? most people used to do something with photoshop iirc | 23:01 |
| kanzure | and then had terrible tables with background images everywhere | 23:02 |
| Aliks | I also chop in either photoshop or paintshop | 23:02 |
| Aliks | tables/divs/other depends on the type of layout it is | 23:02 |
| Aliks | I mean in reality EVERYONE chops images that way, it's a totally separate part of the process | 23:02 |
| kanzure | sure | 23:03 |
| Aliks | in production shops you usually have a dedicated "graphic designer/layout man" who creates photoshop images of the site | 23:03 |
| kanzure | i just mean that creating a layout completely out of graphics | 23:03 |
| kanzure | makes for big downloads on the end-user | 23:03 |
| Aliks | nah | 23:03 |
| Aliks | not if you optimize | 23:03 |
| kanzure | what? | 23:03 |
| Aliks | like you dont actually chop out the ENTIRE background and make it the background | 23:03 |
| Aliks | you chop a 1 px wide slice | 23:03 |
| Aliks | and do repeat-x or repeat-y in CSS | 23:03 |
| Aliks | etc. | 23:03 |
| kanzure | i see | 23:03 |
| kanzure | yes i guess | 23:04 |
| Aliks | basically you want to find graphics that are easily "optimizable" | 23:04 |
| Aliks | you use photoshop to get the exact clean, good looking effects you want | 23:04 |
| Aliks | but keeping in mind you dont want colors everywhere all over the page that would force you to chop out these huge 200px by 200px squares of images | 23:05 |
| Aliks | so mostly you just focus on buttons etc. | 23:05 |
| kanzure | have you ever seen csszengarden? | 23:05 |
| Aliks | yeah | 23:05 |
| Aliks | they're actually total shit | 23:05 |
| kanzure | oh? | 23:05 |
| Aliks | yeah, in my opinion, from a production design standpoint | 23:05 |
| kanzure | is there something better? | 23:05 |
| Aliks | well its not about the look really | 23:05 |
| Aliks | it's about, how flexible is that stuff really? | 23:05 |
| kanzure | they were showing off a bit "look how much bang for the buck we get" | 23:05 |
| Aliks | their stuff is nice dealing with their specific example | 23:05 |
| Aliks | but in real situations their approach often doesnt work | 23:05 |
| kanzure | but if there's something else that's a better example, please show | 23:05 |
| kanzure | ah | 23:06 |
| Aliks | also they use absolute positioning all over the place | 23:06 |
| kanzure | ouch | 23:06 |
| kanzure | yes i hate absolutes | 23:06 |
| Aliks | its not about the look | 23:06 |
| Aliks | you can make anything look good, CSS or not | 23:06 |
| ybit | katsmeow-afk: i was under the impression that it's illegal for you to lay your own underground power cables to direct energy from transmission lines, i.e. you have to pay for the city to hook up the power... that is unless you aren't linked into them | 23:06 |
| Aliks | it's about, in the real world, how much time/money/flexibility does it have | 23:06 |
| Aliks | er ... have/take | 23:06 |
| Aliks | like, I know guys that refuse to use tables categorically on layouts | 23:06 |
| Aliks | guess what.. they dont work for me | 23:07 |
| kanzure | you have people working for you? | 23:07 |
| Aliks | I subcontract frequently | 23:07 |
| Aliks | I have people I work with consistently | 23:07 |
| ybit | fenn: told you i was the only one in #p2pu :P | 23:07 |
| kanzure | cool, cool | 23:07 |
| Aliks | I can get something that looks right in all browsers in like.. 1 or 2 hours that have taken them DAYS to try to do with divs | 23:07 |
| Aliks | because they try to do it the "ideologically correct" way | 23:07 |
| Aliks | which kills profit margin | 23:07 |
| fenn | please don't swear | 23:07 |
| kanzure | hah | 23:08 |
| Aliks | huh? | 23:08 |
| ybit | 'profit margin' | 23:08 |
| Aliks | whats wrong with profit? | 23:08 |
| fenn | it's the devil | 23:08 |
| ybit | hiss | 23:08 |
| Aliks | its so not the devil | 23:08 |
| Aliks | what you guys want to work all day for some grey gruel? | 23:08 |
| kanzure | Aliks: we'd rather not have to have money | 23:08 |
| Aliks | come home to a shack? | 23:08 |
| Aliks | well thats what I'm saying, in the world as it is people work for money | 23:08 |
| kanzure | sorry but this isn't optimal | 23:08 |
| kanzure | anyway | 23:09 |
| Aliks | when the revolution happens, let me know | 23:09 |
| fenn | people have a hard time understanding what we mean, so forget about it | 23:09 |
| kanzure | neither are tables ;) but i'm not ideologically categorically excluding them :) | 23:09 |
| kanzure | i think i tried that for a while | 23:09 |
| kanzure | couldnt' get much done | 23:09 |
| kanzure | *couldn't | 23:09 |
| Aliks | I'm not a greedy person, but I do think there's not something wrong in principle with profit.... | 23:09 |
| Aliks | I mean, assuming a fair economic model anyway | 23:09 |
| Aliks | currently there's a lot of unfair gain going on | 23:09 |
| kanzure | we're not talking about economics | 23:09 |
| kanzure | seriously, forget it | 23:09 |
| Aliks | lol ok | 23:10 |
| Aliks | we'll have to talk about that sometime | 23:10 |
| Aliks | but... I'm about to run to get some coffee.. I'll be back in like an hour | 23:10 |
| ybit | hah, you guys and gals remember the 'so you want to be a hax0r' email i sent to my little cousins? here's the response: 'which one do i pick so i can steal my neigbors high speed internet" | 23:10 |
| kanzure | no? | 23:10 |
| fenn | ybit: network operations center | 23:10 |
| ybit | "make your computer wifi enabled, and then get back with me" should be my response | 23:11 |
| fenn | or just go to college, apparently | 23:11 |
| * fenn says from the screen session hosted on davinci | 23:12 | |
| fenn | we need to get a ronja unit up on the bell tower | 23:12 |
| kanzure | heh does anyone remember the poor math grad who came in here thinking i was in his class? | 23:13 |
| ybit | who offered free hosting recently? | 23:13 |
| kanzure | huh? | 23:13 |
| kanzure | i have some | 23:13 |
| kanzure | but what are you talking about? | 23:13 |
| ybit | okay good | 23:14 |
| kanzure | bkero's servers always seem laggy when i ssh in, ybit | 23:14 |
| ybit | marcin just contacted me, he wants a mirror in place for openfarmtech.org | 23:14 |
| ybit | same here | 23:14 |
| kanzure | oh i'll gladly do that | 23:14 |
| kanzure | hells yeah | 23:14 |
| ybit | great, i'll forward the email your way | 23:15 |
| kanzure | wonder why he asked you | 23:15 |
| ybit | i told him he needed to mirror awhile back and we got into a discussion about it | 23:17 |
| bkero | kanzure: You SSH in to my server? | 23:17 |
| bkero | Which server? | 23:17 |
| kanzure | bkero: 69.163.39.14 | 23:17 |
| ybit | bkero: would there be any chance of hosting, say, redmine there? | 23:18 |
| kanzure | what is redmine? | 23:18 |
| ybit | http://www.redmine.org | 23:18 |
| kanzure | ybit: i have a fast connection off of pdx.edu if we want some more reliable hosting than OSOU | 23:18 |
| kanzure | OSOUSO :p | 23:18 |
| kanzure | bkero: of course i'm just yanking your chain. | 23:18 |
| kanzure | but really, the ssh lag is kind of nasty | 23:18 |
| fenn | aww dillo was dropped from ubuntu | 23:19 |
| kanzure | poor dillo | 23:19 |
| ybit | kanzure: is the pdx host static or vps? | 23:19 |
| kanzure | it's uh, svcs | 23:19 |
| kanzure | it's like a virtual private server except the kernel is shared | 23:21 |
| kanzure | don't think my explanation is good | 23:21 |
| kanzure | bkero: have you used svcs before? | 23:21 |
| bkero | SVC's, like solaris shit? | 23:23 |
| bkero | ybit: Yea, I've seen redmine before, I can't get it to scale. | 23:23 |
| bkero | kanzure: That's not at OSU, that's my colo in portland. | 23:24 |
| bkero | kanzure: traceroute to blueheaven? | 23:24 |
| bkero | Oh, SVC, like containers | 23:24 |
| kanzure | huh it's in portland too? isn't that where pdx.edu is | 23:25 |
| bkero | Yes | 23:25 |
| * ybit wonders... how exactly do people mirror a mediawiki site? | 23:25 | |
| bkero | Bandwidth for my colo is through cogent, I think pdx.net is through nero for commodity bandwidth, and i2 | 23:25 |
| ybit | i can backup everything, but mirroring... | 23:25 |
| ybit | that would require customized scripts, no? | 23:25 |
| bkero | Probably | 23:25 |
| kanzure | you probably backup the database periodically | 23:25 |
| kanzure | there's likely a script already written for that | 23:26 |
| kanzure | on a cron job probably | 23:26 |
| ybit | http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Fullsitebackup | 23:26 |
| ybit | that's a backup | 23:26 |
| kanzure | bkero: what do you want from the tracert? | 23:26 |
| fenn | maybe server 1 serves pages A-D server 2 serves E-J etc so you never have cross-server editing conflicts | 23:27 |
| kanzure | sorbonas.info, gi1-19.ccr01.pdx01.atlas.cogentco.com, te4-3.ccr01.sea01.atlas.cogentco.com | 23:27 |
| kanzure | i've never mirrored a wiki that needs to be resynchronized | 23:27 |
| kanzure | gee this feels like a job for distributed revision control | 23:27 |
| kanzure | owait | 23:27 |
| ybit | oh, there are plenty of articles on mirroring mediawiki sites | 23:27 |
| fenn | btw kanzure did you ever backup davinci? | 23:27 |
| kanzure | partially | 23:27 |
| kanzure | they only wanted /var/www/ | 23:28 |
| kanzure | but i can go back and do everything else | 23:28 |
| bkero | kanzure: pastebin the whole thing | 23:28 |
| fenn | ok | 23:28 |
| fenn | good enough for me | 23:28 |
| kanzure | bkero: can you install pastebinit? :p | 23:29 |
| kanzure | http://openmanufacturing.org/bkero_traceroute | 23:29 |
| * fenn has to go to bed to wake up in time to go to the opera tomorrow (golly gee whatsits) | 23:29 | |
| ybit | maybe something like this is the way to go: http://scytale.name/blog/2009/11/announcing-levitation | 23:29 |
| fenn | oh now my timezone handicap is backwards | 23:30 |
| kanzure | glad to see someone's doing that, ybit | 23:31 |
| ybit | oh | 23:31 |
| ybit | bah | 23:31 |
| ybit | wget --mirror | 23:31 |
| ybit | that's all we need, he offered ftp access | 23:31 |
| bkero | kanzure: patebinit? | 23:31 |
| kanzure | pastebinit is a program to submit stuff to pastebin | 23:31 |
| kanzure | but anyway, that link should give you the traceroute | 23:31 |
| bkero | kanzure: Er, I meant atraceroute to bluheaven.ws | 23:32 |
| bkero | That's going to DNS error :P | 23:32 |
| bkero | blueheaven.ws | 23:32 |
| kanzure | i thought "blueheaven" might have been in /etc/hosts or something | 23:32 |
| bkero | Oh, no | 23:32 |
| kanzure | ok updated | 23:32 |
| kanzure | ssh is still sluggish | 23:33 |
| kanzure | just fyi | 23:33 |
| kanzure | apparently i'm on maetel | 23:33 |
| bkero | You just posted a traceroute from blueheaven.ws to blueheaven.ws | 23:33 |
| bkero | I meant from your computer you're coming from | 23:33 |
| kanzure | laadsl;kfa;ka | 23:33 |
| bkero | Sorry, Maetel = blueheaven.ws | 23:34 |
| kanzure | it gets really hung up at te4-4.ccr01.pdx01.atlas.cogentco.com | 23:34 |
| kanzure | ok file updated | 23:35 |
| bkero | Looks like you're hopping straight from roadrunner to cogent | 23:36 |
| bkero | austin->houston->dallas/fort worth->denver->seattle->portland | 23:36 |
| bkero | Try SSHing to your school, then to blueheaven.ws | 23:37 |
| kanzure | i don't know if this is because of the double effect or not | 23:38 |
| kanzure | it seems slightly more responsive | 23:38 |
| kanzure | yep definitely | 23:38 |
| bkero | Guess your ISPs peering with cogent is done through at 14.4 modem or something | 23:39 |
| kanzure | wonder why ybit also experiences this, does his isp also suck? | 23:39 |
| kanzure | give me an isp that doesn't suck, and you'll get yourself a new resident | 23:40 |
| bkero | Does ybit have roadrunner? | 23:40 |
| kanzure | ybit: ping | 23:40 |
| ybit | pong | 23:40 |
| kanzure | yes? no? | 23:40 |
| bkero | My connection isn't lagging at all, and I'm at 1 bar of stolen 802.11b from a neighbors modem in rural montana | 23:40 |
| ybit | no | 23:40 |
| kanzure | looks liek comcast | 23:41 |
| kanzure | bah bar isn't an actual unit :) | 23:41 |
| bkero | I'm not sure how to get units from OS X | 23:41 |
| ybit | er, google.com/linux says roadrunner is a supercomputer | 23:41 |
| kanzure | roadrunner is also a brand of internet service offered by time warner cable | 23:42 |
| bkero | rr.com | 23:42 |
| kanzure | it's pure evil and should be avoided at all costs | 23:42 |
| kanzure | anyway, thanks bkero | 23:42 |
| bkero | -85dB signal strength, -86dB noise | 23:43 |
| kanzure | btw use the "airport" command i think | 23:43 |
| bkero | Negotiated 2megabit with it | 23:43 |
| kanzure | (why do i know this?) | 23:43 |
| bkero | it's /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport | 23:43 |
| bkero | Not in the $PATH because...fuck, I don't know | 23:43 |
| ybit | bkero: the osl connection has been better recently | 23:43 |
| ybit | it hasn't been as slow | 23:43 |
| bkero | ybit: blueheaven.ws is in Portland now :) | 23:43 |
| ybit | bkero: i see you didn't mention xmonad on your post about WMs... | 23:45 |
| bkero | ybit: Tried it, don't know if it was worth mentioning | 23:46 |
| ybit | why not? | 23:46 |
| ybit | bkero: you could also try bluetile, it's an offspin of xmonad, more click friendly | 23:47 |
| ybit | http://hackage.haskell.org/package/bluetile-0.2 | 23:47 |
| bkero | I don't like programming my window manager in haskell :P | 23:47 |
| kanzure | heh | 23:47 |
| ybit | well, okay, i suppose that's an acceptable argument :) | 23:47 |
| kanzure | he has a point, ybit | 23:47 |
| bkero | Or lua | 23:48 |
| * bkero cringes | 23:48 | |
| bkero | Musca's pretty cool, but I've had to hack the keyconfigs all to hell to get it to behave like wmii | 23:48 |
| * ybit is off to bed | 23:49 | |
| ybit | enjoy the opera tomorrow fenn | 23:49 |
| ybit | ..i guess | 23:49 |
| bkero | oprah | 23:49 |
| * ybit doesn't know if the opera would be enjoyable | 23:49 | |
| bkero | Oh yea, my gift to you | 23:49 |
| bkero | http://staff.osuosl.org/~bkero/DEFCON%2017%20hacking%20conference%20presentation%20by%20Adam%20Savage%20-%20Failure%20-%20video.m4v | 23:49 |
| bkero | Adam Savage's talk at Defcon :) | 23:49 |
| ybit | gracias | 23:49 |
| ybit | y bn | 23:50 |
| kanzure | night | 23:51 |
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| -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap | 23:59 | |
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