| --- Day changed Sun Jun 06 2010 | ||
| Utopiah | http://bps-research-digest.blogspot.com/2010/05/doubt-cast-on-maxim-that-time-goes.html (since we briefly discussed time perception before) | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
| Utopiah | Molecular robots guided by prescriptive landscapes (13 May 2010, 1 year to publication) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v465/n7295/full/nature09012.html | 00:13 |
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| Yocttar | genehacker, thats my whole point, I try not taking a class on it, just think of me as some african without any options of taking a class on the subject (altough in Israel biotech is developing rapidly), now what do I do, where do I start? I did read a biotech book, saw some lectures over the inet but still, knowledge and practical expirience are different. | 00:19 |
| Utopiah | in browser CAM http://www.carveit.ca/partkam/ (unstable, cf http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106198 ) | 00:32 |
| Yocttar | heh cute xD | 00:38 |
| Utopiah | Optimizing the marriage market: An application of the linear assignment model http://ow.ly/1UE6N | 00:40 |
| Utopiah | OR ftw :> | 00:40 |
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| Yocttar | Error Sorry, your request could not be processed because the format of the URL was incorrect. Contact the Help Desk if the problem persists. [SD-001] | 00:43 |
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| Utopiah | then http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0377221709004251 | 00:44 |
| Yocttar | http://blog.makerbot.com/2010/06/04/a-makerbot-self-replicates/ ! | 01:05 |
| Yocttar | roflcopter :D | 01:06 |
| genehacker | no class available | 01:54 |
| genehacker | that's no fun | 01:55 |
| genehacker | I'm very much a beginner too | 01:56 |
| genehacker | no experience here either | 01:56 |
| Yocttar | >.>< | 02:11 |
| Yocttar | shame on you! | 02:11 |
| Yocttar | I scratch your back, you scratch my? :D | 02:11 |
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| Yocttar | I see.. | 02:15 |
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| Yocttar__ | :O | 02:36 |
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| kanzure | Yocttar: seriously, read the plasmid techniques.. that's "insertion" | 06:44 |
| splicer | http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=19 | 06:46 |
| phryk | Om nom nom | 06:51 |
| phryk | So I'mma go do some "normal people" stuff | 06:52 |
| splicer | cu | 06:53 |
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| Yocttar | So does any1 got some nifty plasmid techniques guide? I'll be looking myself as well right now, but if you do, drop a link ;) | 07:25 |
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| fenn | you could start with protocol-online.org | 07:32 |
| fenn | http://www.protocol-online.org/prot/Molecular_Biology/Transformation/index.html | 07:33 |
| fenn | protocols don't really explain why you're doing what you're doing though | 07:34 |
| fenn | i learned all this in school so i don't know any good online resources | 07:34 |
| fenn | we have some molecular bio textbooks in ebook form if you want them | 07:34 |
| fenn | tell me if you see anything you like: http://fennetic.net/irc/EBOOK.tree | 07:37 |
| fenn | anyone else too | 07:38 |
| Yocttar | I actually know the theoretical stuff | 07:40 |
| Yocttar | not the practical | 07:40 |
| Yocttar | ;D | 07:40 |
| fenn | i'm not convinced | 07:40 |
| Yocttar | i got ebooks and lectures on video | 07:40 |
| fenn | prettier: http://fennetic.net/irc/EBOOK.tree.html | 07:47 |
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| splicer | Berkeley has lab some lab preparation lectures.... they're on iTunes for instance. Most probably other universities have them too. | 07:53 |
| Utopiah | (grumble grumble iTunes grumble grumble) | 07:53 |
| splicer | ((well... universities publish there)) | 07:54 |
| Yocttar | fenn, giving any one a list of all science books available won't help ;) btw, I do have many of those on my computer already. | 07:56 |
| Yocttar | splicer: link? ^^ | 07:58 |
| kanzure | Yocttar: yes but have you read them? | 07:58 |
| Utopiah | (I know, Im not criticizing you for sharing a nice hint, Im just disappointed that universities dont understand Apple lock-in mechanism which doesn't, to me at least, goes toward the free exchange of knowledge which should be the role of universities) | 07:58 |
| kanzure | fenn: paul emailed me and said "oh well, it's probably your thought" when i told him about the smartphone dev legal bullshit i've run into (he's doing android apps these days) | 07:59 |
| kanzure | *your fault | 07:59 |
| Yocttar | kanzure I did. | 07:59 |
| kanzure | i laughed though :) "oh well, it's probably your fault" is not his common textdump for me.. it's usually "oh well, most people just suck" | 07:59 |
| kanzure | Yocttar: then how is it that you don't know about incubator chambers? | 08:00 |
| kanzure | O_o | 08:00 |
| Yocttar | the explain plasmids, vectors, proteins, hormones etc etc.... they say that some1 got made a vector, but dont tell you how exactly... | 08:00 |
| kanzure | are you interested in synthesizing your own vector or buying one? | 08:00 |
| kanzure | plasmid vector, i mean | 08:00 |
| Yocttar | making | 08:01 |
| Yocttar | synthesizing | 08:01 |
| kanzure | so you want to synthesize your own plasmid vector, as well as use it? just making sure | 08:02 |
| Yocttar | well eventually yes | 08:03 |
| Yocttar | the question is | 08:03 |
| Yocttar | if it is possible by simple means | 08:03 |
| Yocttar | as in KISS .. | 08:03 |
| splicer | yocttar: try searching on 'biology lab' in the iTunesU section. | 08:04 |
| Yocttar | not involving me having to buy stuff from other nations | 08:04 |
| kanzure | hm | 08:04 |
| kanzure | that'/s an interesting constraint :) | 08:04 |
| kanzure | i like it | 08:04 |
| Yocttar | ill repeat what I said before, think of me as an African guy, having nothing around but the Internet, a Computer and a junk yard... So... knowledge comes easy, practice - not. now will you help me?! :D | 08:06 |
| splicer | you mean like foreign aid? | 08:06 |
| Yocttar | lol | 08:06 |
| Yocttar | you can say that! :D | 08:06 |
| Yocttar | basically my question is that after 40 years, is there any simple method to create a vector and insert it in some bacteria or algae | 08:12 |
| Yocttar | 40 years since it was first done | 08:13 |
| kanzure | fenn: heh, apparently paul knows mitch free | 08:14 |
| kanzure | see your inbox for fwd'd stuff | 08:14 |
| fenn | it's going to be hard to get a sample of K12 E. coli without "buying stuff from other nations" | 08:16 |
| fenn | and most standard biotech tools for that matter | 08:17 |
| Yocttar | why do I need K12 e.coli | 08:17 |
| fenn | it's like "why do i need a pentium processor" | 08:17 |
| kanzure | nah, israel should have a stockpile of biotech equipment | 08:17 |
| Yocttar | cant I just use any e.Coli? | 08:17 |
| Yocttar | we do | 08:17 |
| Yocttar | but its not what I want.. | 08:17 |
| kanzure | fenn: i think Yocttar is lying to us about his "knowledge" | 08:17 |
| kanzure | fenn: so, did i tell you about the adopt-a-lab-rat idea? | 08:18 |
| fenn | no | 08:18 |
| kanzure | well.. basically, lab animals are divided into control groups and experimental groups | 08:18 |
| kanzure | the control group is usually sacrificed at the end of a study | 08:18 |
| fenn | slightly OT (re: mitch free and mfg.com) http://cloudfab.org | 08:19 |
| kanzure | it would be a cute diybio gig i think to redistribute these rats and mice :) | 08:19 |
| kanzure | yeah i met the cloudfab.com guys through suresh fernando, and then in person at sxsw | 08:19 |
| kanzure | nick pinkston? | 08:19 |
| kanzure | something like that | 08:20 |
| fenn | huh. "The SolidScape process deposits melted wax using an ink jet system." then why the fuck have i never heard of it until now | 08:21 |
| kanzure | inkjet can do melted wax? hm | 08:22 |
| kanzure | i guess i never tried that | 08:22 |
| kanzure | wonder if it's a custom wax | 08:22 |
| fenn | i've been rambling about it for years now | 08:22 |
| kanzure | "the singularity is near" has recently been serving as my laptop rest while i'm sitting on a bed or on my lap (because the heat exhaust thing points downward lap-wards) | 08:24 |
| fenn | they have all of 2 case studies on the 'non-dental' page | 08:24 |
| kanzure | the book was written based off of emails from the extropy-chat mailing list | 08:24 |
| kanzure | i think it's time for a book from the diybio/om lists :P | 08:24 |
| fenn | already written, see "Makers" | 08:24 |
| kanzure | oh right | 08:24 |
| kanzure | no way cory is the next ray clone | 08:25 |
| kanzure | although he's about as popular i guess | 08:25 |
| kanzure | even my dad had ray kurzweil and eric drexler books on his shelf | 08:25 |
| kanzure | (that probably sounds biased, but they were books he didn't really focus on) | 08:26 |
| fenn | i just want to point out that your grandma sends you books on AR | 08:27 |
| fenn | your family is not normal | 08:27 |
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| kanzure | my grandma was probably influenced by me, not the other way around | 08:28 |
| fenn | same result | 08:28 |
| kanzure | stupid tangled cause-effect relationships. blah | 08:28 |
| kanzure | aristotle's "final cause" came into the night and stabbed me behind my back | 08:28 |
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| kanzure | online blood testing service http://personalabs.com/ | 08:35 |
| fenn | did mitch actually read paul's novel? | 08:41 |
| kanzure | probably not.. mitch didn't read my email (for all i know) | 08:41 |
| Yocttar | "<kanzure> fenn: i think Yocttar is lying to us about his "knowledge"" I guess I won't get much help from you. | 08:42 |
| kanzure | what? | 08:43 |
| kanzure | why do you say that | 08:43 |
| kanzure | i've expressed interest in helping you, but some things just don't add up | 08:43 |
| kanzure | like.. why don't you know about incubators? or plasmid synthesis? you claimed to have read textbooks, but.. | 08:43 |
| Yocttar | As I've said, they never explain how... I know there are cutting enzymes, I know that I can make recombinant DNA hence a vector, I know I can put that vector in a bacteria or ucariot (typo) cell and make it replicate and create w\e protein whose code I inserted into it | 08:45 |
| Yocttar | But I don't know _how_ | 08:46 |
| kanzure | sorry, i'm having trouble understanding what it is that you /do/ know if you don't know the "how" | 08:46 |
| kanzure | the vocabulary? | 08:46 |
| kanzure | ucariot -> eukaryote :) | 08:47 |
| kanzure | i am not being mean- just trying to make sure i understand what's going on | 08:47 |
| Yocttar | OK, let me give you an example... (sec looking for it) | 08:48 |
| Yocttar | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d6phzXnRYo | 08:48 |
| fenn | the process of making a recombinant organism is still long and complicated, even in 2010 | 08:48 |
| fenn | especially if you want to do everything from scratch | 08:48 |
| fenn | you aren't going to find a step by step guide | 08:49 |
| Yocttar | well thats a good answer... | 08:49 |
| Yocttar | So how about making an easy process? :D | 08:49 |
| kanzure | what? | 08:49 |
| fenn | you really aren't going to find a series of youtube videos :\ | 08:49 |
| Yocttar | http://www.pacificbiosciences.com/ | 08:50 |
| kanzure | that's a supplier | 08:50 |
| Yocttar | an example of DNA sequencing | 08:50 |
| Yocttar | simple to understand (to me at least) | 08:50 |
| kanzure | oops, my bad | 08:50 |
| kanzure | why is it simple to understand ? the page doesn't explain how it works.. | 08:51 |
| Yocttar | http://www.pacificbiosciences.com/video_lg.html | 08:51 |
| Yocttar | you can make a cell that creates the phosphate linked nucleotides etc etc.. | 08:53 |
| fenn | Yocttar: i'd suggest doing some simple demo experiments like doing a digestion and running a gel before you go off and try to do full blown genetic engineering | 08:54 |
| Yocttar | eventually, if you know programming, electronics, some optics and mechanics maybe, you can actually make that machine (eventually) | 08:55 |
| fenn | the pacific bio people have been trying to get that thing to work for 10 years, and it still doesn't work right | 08:55 |
| Yocttar | actually as far as I know, it already does | 08:55 |
| kanzure | you're missing the point | 08:56 |
| Yocttar | your idea sounds good.. so digestion? running a gel? :D | 08:56 |
| kanzure | fenn: it occurs to me that people would pay a premium for us to make it seem like everything is simple, even when in reality it is not | 08:56 |
| kanzure | do you remember xp_prg? and tons of others coming in here asking for a one-click solution? | 08:57 |
| Yocttar | if its easy in software, mechanics and electronics, why wont it be easy here as well? | 08:57 |
| kanzure | it's easy if you know what you're doing | 08:57 |
| fenn | so this is some sort of one-time-customer information barrier scam? | 08:57 |
| kanzure | why am i thinking about money? this is stupid | 08:57 |
| kanzure | i guess | 08:57 |
| kanzure | i think the universities have a monopoly on that market | 08:58 |
| fenn | 'it's SO easy, try it for only $44.95" and then they try it and it doesn't work out as expected | 08:58 |
| kanzure | people would pay it :( | 08:58 |
| fenn | of course they would | 08:58 |
| kanzure | get bre pettis and andrew hessel to do the marketing | 08:58 |
| kanzure | hahah | 08:58 |
| kanzure | "robots that make things!" | 08:58 |
| kanzure | "cells that make things!" | 08:58 |
| fenn | Yocttar: software mechanics and electronics were designed by humans. biology "just happened" | 08:58 |
| fenn | biology doesn't neatly decompose into abstraction layers the way designed systems do | 08:58 |
| kanzure | "robots that make things!" is their slogan but ironically it's the humans that make their makerbots | 08:58 |
| fenn | in their defense, the laser cutter does most of the work | 08:59 |
| fenn | but yeah they totally downplay the amount of fiddling required to get it to do anything useful | 08:59 |
| Yocttar | well fenn, try to think of a way it will fit into abstraction layers ... | 08:59 |
| fenn | Yocttar: it's not my job | 08:59 |
| Yocttar | heh | 09:00 |
| Yocttar | its the job of any biologist | 09:00 |
| Yocttar | :) | 09:00 |
| fenn | i'm not a biologist :P | 09:00 |
| fenn | and anyway you're wrong | 09:00 |
| Yocttar | biology enthusiast? | 09:00 |
| fenn | abstraction layers are the wrong approach to biology imho | 09:00 |
| kanzure | fenn: but enough people are bashing their heads against it- like biobricks, sbml, "synthetic biology" bullshit | 09:00 |
| kanzure | andrew ellington has your same stance, btw | 09:00 |
| kanzure | and when drew endy or someone is "successful", they're going to make this huge stink about it | 09:01 |
| fenn | i think biobricks could work | 09:01 |
| parolang | All I can think of, reading the current discussion, is that I wonder to what extent examining real, flying birds had hindered the development of human flight. | 09:01 |
| kanzure | Yocttar: you should focus on making the equipment necessary to run the protocols | 09:01 |
| fenn | birds provided an existence proof, without which powered flight probably never would have happened | 09:01 |
| kanzure | a genetic engineering project requires a PCR technique, so you should make the equipment necessary for PCR | 09:02 |
| fenn | we would have jumped straight to rockets | 09:02 |
| parolang | fenn: Could be. But think we also tried to skipped a couple of generations in design and adopt nature's design. | 09:02 |
| kanzure | did the chinese have gun powder and rockets before da vinci's time? | 09:02 |
| fenn | yeah | 09:02 |
| parolang | *skip | 09:02 |
| Yocttar | kanzure, I could build it really but first I need to understand why do I need it. | 09:03 |
| kanzure | i thought you already had the textbook smarts | 09:03 |
| kanzure | >_> | 09:03 |
| fenn | lulz | 09:03 |
| kanzure | i am so confused | 09:03 |
| * fenn goes to buy some hummus because he's too lazy to make it from scratch | 09:03 | |
| Yocttar | I need to get to the stage where I actually need the PCR | 09:03 |
| fenn | pcr is pretty basic | 09:04 |
| fenn | if you dont need pcr you aren't doing anything | 09:04 |
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| Yocttar | prior to PCR I need to make a vector right? | 09:04 |
| kanzure | uh, no | 09:05 |
| kanzure | i guess you could design your vector on your computer, if that makes you happy, but that's not really doing much | 09:05 |
| kanzure | plasmid vector | 09:05 |
| kanzure | (i am trying to stay away from the blanket "vector" term because it genuinely means the different methods.. whereas plasmid vector is somewhat more specific) | 09:05 |
| Yocttar | but PCR is only used to duplicate DNA right? or im wrong? | 09:06 |
| Yocttar | and in order to duplicate the DNA I want, I must manipulate it first somehow.. | 09:08 |
| Utopiah | I thought PCR implied selection the section you were interested in | 09:09 |
| Utopiah | s/ion/ing/ | 09:09 |
| kanzure | Yocttar: if you want to just order a plasmid from a scientific supply company, you can try | 09:09 |
| kanzure | but if you want to do it on your own, you're going to need to read protocols and build the equipment necessary to carry out the protocols | 09:10 |
| kanzure | gel electrophoresis is a very important way to check your DNA, and without PCR, you don't have a lot of DNA to work with | 09:10 |
| kanzure | usually they ship you a few nanograms or something | 09:10 |
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| Yocttar | I'll go check around for gel electrophoresis , " digestion "? , PCR and biobricks for now =) | 09:16 |
| Yocttar | Thanks for all the help ;) | 09:17 |
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| splicer | fenn: what did you mean by 'abstraction layers are the wrong approach to biology imho'? | 09:36 |
| splicer | you meant that having he engineering approach is wrong? | 09:38 |
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| fenn | i mean it's the wrong way to try to understand it | 09:46 |
| fenn | certainly engineered systems can be built from simple subcomponents that exist already | 09:47 |
| fenn | but we don't have that yet | 09:47 |
| fenn | and trying to think it into a box is futile | 09:47 |
| * kanzure tries to put fenn into a box with his mental rays | 09:51 | |
| fenn | if orange juice came in durable reusable containers i probably wouldn't be cleaning it off the floor right now | 09:51 |
| splicer | I think understand how you mean... abstraction is ok but our models still suck... so abstracting by seeing the cell as a collection of cog wheels fails... because it's not a collection of cog wheels | 09:51 |
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| fenn | splicer i think we could make a cell out of "cog wheels" | 09:51 |
| fenn | but the cells that exist right now are more intertwingled | 09:52 |
| splicer | that's what evolution does to you | 09:52 |
| fenn | heh police were called out in response to noisebridge's "how magnets work: an explanation for juggalos" | 09:55 |
| fenn | "fuckin' magnets... how do they work?" Magnets were like magic to me as a kid. You could move things across the table without actually touching them! I found that shit amazing and I still do. If you don't like that, have a dick for dinner. | 09:59 |
| kanzure | the muddling around that you have to do with biotech is a lot like the muddling in building mechanical equipment | 09:59 |
| kanzure | i thought skdb was supposed to solve that pain point? | 09:59 |
| kanzure | instead it introduced another (packaging and figuring out a simple packaging format) | 09:59 |
| kanzure | (and getting people to actually package) | 09:59 |
| fenn | skdb solves the reinventing-the-wheel problem, not the initial muddling | 10:03 |
| kanzure | why does muddling take so long | 10:05 |
| fenn | hofstadter's law | 10:06 |
| fenn | it's because of all the yaks that need to be shaved | 10:07 |
| Alystair | can someone explain the problem to me | 10:07 |
| Alystair | as a 3rd party | 10:07 |
| fenn | skdb can put the yaks in correct order but not eliminate them | 10:07 |
| * Alystair is now lost | 10:07 | |
| fenn | also, if nobody's solved the problem before, then you don't know the correct order to shave yaks | 10:08 |
| kanzure | Alystair: secretly we're all tibetan monks hurding yaks on a hilltop in second life, or something | 10:08 |
| fenn | it's a GNU thing | 10:08 |
| * kanzure nods | 10:08 | |
| splicer | fenn: when I have played with the 'perfect cell' idea... it seems to me that cell still isn't a traditional machine... in the sequential scaffolding biobricks sense.... but that one of the main features of that cell is that it's human readable. | 10:09 |
| fenn | um. why do you say that? | 10:09 |
| splicer | that the code is structured.. so one can get a grip of how it works | 10:09 |
| splicer | because cells aren't machines... biobricks is a bit of an ugly hack on them. | 10:10 |
| fenn | semantics | 10:10 |
| kanzure | i wonder why they bothered to call it a "brick" | 10:10 |
| kanzure | fenn: never underestimate the inability of others to follow a line of conversation | 10:10 |
| kanzure | Alystair: did you ask us to give an explanation of SKDB? | 10:11 |
| fenn | any mechanical or electrical device that transmits or modifies energy to perform or assist in the performance of human tasks <-- i think it qualifies | 10:11 |
| splicer | fenn: was that for me? | 10:11 |
| fenn | sorry, that was the definition for "machine" | 10:11 |
| splicer | yeah yeah... a cell is a machine... only not a neat sequential one | 10:12 |
| splicer | you don't understand what I mean if I say biobricks are a hack on a cell? | 10:13 |
| kanzure | warning: communication integrity is at an all time low | 10:13 |
| kanzure | biobricks are snippits of DNA with metadata | 10:14 |
| splicer | yes? | 10:14 |
| splicer | biobricks is appying an engineering approach to biology.... biology isn't engineering. | 10:15 |
| splicer | biobricks is not how the cell would solve that problem itself | 10:16 |
| splicer | but because our models for how the cell patways works are still bad... it's as good as it gets for now | 10:17 |
| kanzure | Alystair: ping? | 10:18 |
| fenn | california got hot all of a sudden | 10:21 |
| kanzure | austin hot? | 10:22 |
| splicer | ;) | 10:23 |
| lepton | *returns from idle* It's slightly hot in Colorado | 10:23 |
| splicer | around 25C in north of sweden, that's hot for here | 10:25 |
| lepton | So I finally have a bit of free time, after 33 days with no time off, and I'm switching our CNC over to EMC2, finally | 10:25 |
| fenn | no, not even close | 10:25 |
| fenn | http://www.accuweather.com/us/ca/menlo-park/94025/forecast-month.asp | 10:25 |
| fenn | hm i thought for sure it was hotter than 80 | 10:26 |
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| kanzure | i need to figure out a way to defeat yak shaving | 10:28 |
| kanzure | i thought getting other people to shave them would work | 10:28 |
| fenn | "Brought to you by the #'s 9, 23 & 42 the Letters G, K & S, the color purple and the non-color black. " | 10:28 |
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| kanzure | fenn: i'm still not reall sure how yaks even show up in the first place | 10:55 |
| kanzure | they are a byproduct of previous human activity, right? | 10:55 |
| genehacker | yaks? | 10:56 |
| kanzure | http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/Y/yak-shaving.html | 10:57 |
| kanzure | yak shaving: [MIT AI Lab, after 2000: orig. probably from a Ren & Stimpy episode.] Any seemingly pointless activity which is actually necessary to solve a problem which solves a problem which, several levels of recursion later, solves the real problem you're working on. | 10:57 |
| kanzure | http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2005/03/dont_shave_that.html | 10:58 |
| kanzure | "I want to wax my car today" -> "oops my hose is still broken from the winter, i need a new one" -> need to go to home depot -> ""But Home Depot is on the other side of the Tappan Zee bridge and getting there without my EZPass is miserable because of the tolls." | 10:59 |
| kanzure | -> need to borrow neighbor's ezpass -> "Bob won't lend me his EZPass until I return the mooshi pillow my son borrowed, though." -> stuffing has been falling out of the pillow, so you need to get some yak hair to restuff it | 10:59 |
| kanzure | and the next thing you know, you're at the zoo, shaving a yak, all so you can wax your car. | 10:59 |
| kanzure | i see scenarios like this quite often in machine shops and hackerspaces | 11:01 |
| lepton | Indeed | 11:02 |
| kanzure | before we install the electronics on the mechmate, we need to fix the welding error, but before we fix the welding error we need to go get the welding equipment from greg, and to do that we need to get permission from les (who isn't availably most of the time anyway) | 11:02 |
| kanzure | and so on, and so forth | 11:02 |
| kanzure | lepton: i'm still thinking about the issues i raised with you a while back re: how long it takes to get stuff done in a shop | 11:03 |
| kanzure | or the time differential between how long it takes to get stuff done on a computer (sometimes) versus in hardware | 11:03 |
| kanzure | i guess it helps when you already have all of the tools necessary and they are in working condition | 11:03 |
| lepton | If there were 10,000 companies/groups like what I'm trying to do, then there might be a healthy ecosystem of indepent groups trying to solve their own problems, but also contracting to shave other group's yak's as a means of income and interest | 11:03 |
| kanzure | but if that's your situation, you're already done, now aren't you? | 11:03 |
| fenn | here's an example from my life: "i want to see in infrared! ok, lets make a heads-up display. gotta drive it somehow, how about a beagleboard? oh but the beagleboard isn't working, send it back and get a new one. while waiting for the beagleboard let's make a case for it instead of duct-tape and cable ties. ok let's use the makerbot at noisebridge, oh wait it's not big enough! ok let's make a mendel on the makerbot at noisebridge. (3 months pass | 11:04 |
| kanzure | btw did you ever send it back | 11:04 |
| fenn | ... we find out hero running a business selling repraps on ebay | 11:04 |
| fenn | no, i never sent it back :\ | 11:04 |
| kanzure | s/out/our/ ? | 11:04 |
| lepton | Once you've accomplished a working set of design, programming, fixturing, etc, our CNC workflow increases by a factor of 2 - 6, I'd say | 11:04 |
| fenn | yes | 11:05 |
| lepton | so I think that reproducing other people's work (skdb apt-getting) could potentially be a lot easier than one's own origional work | 11:05 |
| lepton | hey Fenn! We need to talk about that project | 11:05 |
| kanzure | as fenn pointed out earlier, skdb just gets the yaks in the right order | 11:05 |
| kanzure | the original package maintainer (or whatever) still needs to actually shave the yaks | 11:05 |
| lepton | I've done a lot of machine vision work on Gumstix boards, same OMAP processor as the Beagleboard | 11:05 |
| kanzure | and get everything sorted out | 11:06 |
| lepton | but with a parallel camera interface | 11:06 |
| fenn | really | 11:06 |
| lepton | yeap | 11:06 |
| fenn | what camera did you use? | 11:06 |
| fenn | i might switch to gumstix eventually because it's smaller | 11:06 |
| * lepton pulls up old svn | 11:06 | |
| kanzure | i wonder how a yak shaving economy would work. they show up in the most unsuspecting places, so it's hard to figure out how any of this would be automated or streamlined | 11:06 |
| fenn | yeah sometimes i think yak shaving is just what we're here for | 11:07 |
| fenn | all that fancy dreaming up dreams would happen even if nobody existed | 11:07 |
| lepton | My whole big scuba-hardware project I've been working on for the past two months is essentially yak shaving | 11:07 |
| lepton | to get money, to further primary projects... | 11:08 |
| kanzure | most business peeps would say "yak shaving? you should just spend money to have other people solve your problems for you!" | 11:08 |
| fenn | easy to say for someone with money | 11:09 |
| kanzure | i don't understand how having money fixes the problem though | 11:09 |
| fenn | les explained this to me many times | 11:09 |
| kanzure | fundamentally the problem is still the same | 11:09 |
| fenn | the way it works is you minimize the number of checks you have to write | 11:09 |
| fenn | if you can write one check and get it done, you do that no matter how much it costs | 11:09 |
| fenn | at least that's the operating principle of 90% of american businesses | 11:10 |
| kanzure | bah | 11:11 |
| kanzure | i have money and the yaks aren't disappearing | 11:11 |
| kanzure | i'm suspicious of this | 11:11 |
| kanzure | in many cases, the solution to yak shaving is to just do something else entirely | 11:12 |
| fenn | like go to the beach? | 11:12 |
| kanzure | or migrating to california, yes | 11:13 |
| fenn | Works For Me (tm) | 11:13 |
| fenn | that'd be a good name for an outsourcing business | 11:13 |
| kanzure | actually i meant it in another sense- like re-doing a strategy/plan/outline for a thingy that you're trying to do | 11:13 |
| fenn | oh like TRIZ or some such | 11:14 |
| lepton | fenn: the Micron/Aptina MT9P401 | 11:14 |
| fenn | "attack the problem by increasing the number of dimensions" | 11:15 |
| fenn | lepton: this was your flocculation thingy? | 11:15 |
| fenn | nice sensor | 11:16 |
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| lepton | yeap | 11:18 |
| lepton | We made 5 revisions of PCBs, I think | 11:19 |
| lepton | Needed to have continuous operation for 2 years at a time | 11:19 |
| lepton | Not that we had 2 years to test it | 11:19 |
| kanzure | lepton: so how would yak trading work? "you shave my yak, i'll shave yours" but in practice what would this look like? just a codified way of keeping track of your yak herd so that other people can search for yaks they have already shaved? | 11:19 |
| lepton | I've been wanting to do a head-up display with it for a while | 11:19 |
| lepton | I wonder if some sort of seed/leach ratio similar to bit torrent sites could be useful | 11:21 |
| kanzure | how would you codify the nature of a yak | 11:21 |
| kanzure | i mean, you could have anti-yaks and yaks, and then you figure out how to maximize the number of yak cancellations | 11:21 |
| fenn | it's just a task that needs to be done | 11:22 |
| kanzure | but this seems a bit too simplicity | 11:22 |
| kanzure | sure.. but like, some yaks are in the manufacturing space | 11:22 |
| kanzure | and yuo might have the tool required for it | 11:22 |
| kanzure | others have a different nature | 11:22 |
| lepton | some are just programming | 11:22 |
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| fenn | "SMOP" | 11:22 |
| lepton | some are just "find the damn broken dependancy and make it compile" | 11:23 |
| lepton | BTW we successfully compiled Arduino/LeafLabs STM32 FFT code for the light project :) | 11:23 |
| fenn | many are "read the documentation until you understand the example code" | 11:23 |
| fenn | what's the light project? | 11:24 |
| kanzure | heh i wonder if we can use mechanical turk for this | 11:24 |
| fenn | kanzure: have you actually used amazon turk for anything? | 11:24 |
| kanzure | nope, but i was making some hits | 11:24 |
| lepton | A burning man project to create a bunch of objects in a space that are sound responsive (doing frequency analysis) and can be programmed in a multiude of ways | 11:25 |
| kanzure | i was thinking of using turk for "contact 10 of your friends and ask them this question: " | 11:25 |
| fenn | it's a classic mistake for smart people to assume everybody is as smart as they are | 11:25 |
| fenn | i dont get it.. you're trying to do a pyramid scheme starting with amazon turk workers? | 11:26 |
| kanzure | as a way to find someone who can solve the problem | 11:26 |
| kanzure | turn them into recruiters | 11:26 |
| kanzure | anyway, it's a bad idea | 11:26 |
| fenn | i dont think that's what they signed up for | 11:26 |
| fenn | also, how do you kill the process tree once you've found a solution? | 11:27 |
| fenn | reminds me of some story about the chinese emperor | 11:28 |
| kanzure | what i'm thinking of is a website at yakherding.com or something | 11:28 |
| kanzure | where you upload or submit your yaks | 11:28 |
| Utopiah | o_0 | 11:28 |
| kanzure | but then are also somehow contributing to shaving | 11:28 |
| Utopiah | I want some of the stuff you're taking | 11:28 |
| kanzure | by shaving other people's aks, you get credit or something | 11:28 |
| kanzure | Utopiah: what's up? | 11:28 |
| Utopiah | p2p yakshaving, welcome to 2010 | 11:28 |
| fenn | duude, we're living in the future | 11:29 |
| Utopiah | doing except that I didn't catch your answer regarding your Google Web History script | 11:29 |
| Utopiah | s/ /good / | 11:29 |
| kanzure | re: rate limiting? they didn't. | 11:29 |
| fenn | anyone used dragon dictate? | 11:30 |
| kanzure | damien broderick uses it and swears by it | 11:30 |
| fenn | umm.. anyone used sphinx? | 11:32 |
| lepton | I set it up for a quadrapolegic friend | 11:32 |
| lepton | but he got a lot better and never needed to use it much, thankfully | 11:33 |
| lepton | ^Dragon, that is | 11:33 |
| Utopiah | is there an international research project directory? listing by date (including current period) research projects being conducted thanks to public funding, also included discipline categories and such | 11:33 |
| fenn | i would guess not, since international collaborations are between entities (so which entity would keep track of all of them?) | 11:34 |
| fenn | NSF has a pretty good list of research being conducted in the US | 11:35 |
| Utopiah | discussion about AmazonTurk made me think of it, Im consider creating HITS for that | 11:35 |
| fenn | what is HITS? | 11:35 |
| Utopiah | any link in particular? | 11:35 |
| kanzure | a HITS is the unit that you have mechanical turk send out to its workforce | 11:35 |
| Utopiah | Amazon way to say "task" | 11:35 |
| fenn | http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/ | 11:36 |
| Utopiah | Human Intelligence Tasks or .HITs. | 11:36 |
| kanzure | "5secondyaks - yak shaving for the rest of us" | 11:37 |
| Utopiah | hmmm I guess I could populate the DB live with the equivalent of the RSS feed http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_list.jsp?org=NSF&ord=rcnt for each country | 11:37 |
| kanzure | maybe it should be tool-based only? "if user x has the tool required for yak A, and user y has the tool required for yak B, where user y has yak A and user x has yak B" | 11:42 |
| kanzure | or it could be some sort of collaborative strategy thingy where people try to figure out a better set of steps to follow than the ones you've been taking | 11:43 |
| kanzure | "try x, y, and z to get your board working, and if that doesn't work, at least i've got you a bit further along" (?) | 11:44 |
| Utopiah | sounds a bit like http://www.innocentive.com/ or http://www.ideo.com/ | 11:44 |
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| fenn | exchange yaks for whuffie | 11:53 |
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| fenn | this is practically what freenode is anyway | 11:54 |
| fenn | fun to see people i know on here http://www.voxforge.org/home/downloads/metrics | 11:56 |
| fenn | huh they only need 70 hours of speech? | 11:58 |
| fenn | er, 140 hours | 11:58 |
| fenn | same diff | 11:58 |
| fenn | it would be a lot easier to record speech samples if they weren't so totally weird and hilarious | 12:02 |
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| kanzure | another example: the other day, dave wanted to go over to the shop to laser cut some parts with me | 12:19 |
| kanzure | so we both drove over (separately) only to discover that the windows box hooked up to the cutter was acting all weird | 12:19 |
| kanzure | so then we started to go on a hunt to fix the windows box.. | 12:20 |
| kanzure | but it turns out that someone else was replacing the graphics card (or something?) | 12:20 |
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| fenn | that's a case of "if it ain't broke.." | 12:25 |
| kanzure | but it is broke :( | 12:28 |
| kanzure | i don't really have a good analogy to describe the problem (and i'm starting to obsess a little over it) | 12:32 |
| kanzure | "yak shaving" is an allegory story thing | 12:33 |
| fenn | my condolences | 12:34 |
| fenn | have you considered donating a speech sample today? | 12:34 |
| kanzure | i don't get it. is this about oxforge.org? | 12:34 |
| kanzure | *voxvorge.org | 12:34 |
| kanzure | god damn it | 12:34 |
| kanzure | voxforge.org | 12:34 |
| fenn | http://www.voxforge.org/home/read | 12:34 |
| fenn | it's amazing they have so few samples | 12:35 |
| fenn | since literally anyone with a microphone can spend five minutes and upload a sample | 12:35 |
| fenn | there's a mechanical turk task right there | 12:35 |
| kanzure | hm seems to require java | 12:36 |
| fenn | haha then the speech software would only understand indian accents | 12:36 |
| kanzure | mechanical turk actually has a disproportionate number of north american / western hemisphere folks on it | 12:36 |
| Utopiah | btw you can't request tasks if you are not american | 12:39 |
| * Utopiah didn't suggest it was organized slavery though :-# | 12:39 | |
| fenn | how do they know you're american? | 12:40 |
| fenn | and why does it matter? | 12:40 |
| kanzure | someone paid for some HITS for them to report it | 12:40 |
| kanzure | also, amazon keeps some data on it | 12:40 |
| kanzure | wut? http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/gec/ "A Programming Language for Genetic Engineering of Living Cells" | 12:40 |
| phryk | I don't like microsoft. | 12:41 |
| kanzure | http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/s0677975/synbiotool/ | 12:41 |
| Utopiah | fenn: AFAIK for taxes | 12:42 |
| kanzure | http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbw | 12:42 |
| kanzure | eww it depends on .NET | 12:42 |
| phryk | "A prototype Windows tool for [...]" | 12:42 |
| phryk | Sucks butt. | 12:42 |
| phryk | I think I am never going to use gec ;P | 12:42 |
| kanzure | it seems to be built on top of sbml | 12:43 |
| kanzure | i don't understand what they think it does, though | 12:43 |
| phryk | Also I'm pretty sure we'll get something gnooey about that^^ | 12:43 |
| kanzure | as far as i can tell, this tool is useless | 12:43 |
| kanzure | there was a paper: http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=79443 | 12:44 |
| kanzure | but i doubt it will explain what it is | 12:44 |
| Yocttar | Nighty night everyone ;) thanks again for the guidance! | 12:50 |
| genehacker | hopefully microsoft won't patent us or run winblows in our cells... | 12:50 |
| Utopiah | that's what the big pharma is for | 12:51 |
| kanzure | http://japhr.blogspot.com/2009/03/yak-shaving-is-new-dependency-hell.html (the article itself is just a particular instance of yak shaving) | 13:01 |
| kanzure | http://blog.roogles.com/2008/06/on-shaving-yak.html | 13:01 |
| kanzure | "Monk Number Twenty-two," Gaspar said to Joshua, "you shall begin by learning how to sit." | 13:01 |
| kanzure | "I can sit," I said. | 13:01 |
| kanzure | "And you, Number Twenty-one, will shave the yak." | 13:01 |
| kanzure | "That's just an expression, right?" | 13:02 |
| kanzure | It wasn't. | 13:02 |
| kanzure | haha | 13:02 |
| kanzure | http://scanty-redis.heroku.com/past/2007/12/12/in_defense_of_yak_shaving/ | 13:04 |
| kanzure | heh, a funny instance: http://www.lafferty.ca/2005/11/23/yak-shaving/ | 13:05 |
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| kanzure | "Possibly the second-greatest act of yak shaving in history was Don Knuth temporarily stopping work on his magnum opus The Art of Computer Programming in order to write something to do better typesetting for it. Eight years later, he released TEX. Then he resumed work on the book." | 13:08 |
| fenn | d'eaux | 13:08 |
| Utopiah | so : clear focus + having enough resources -> going as far away from your goal as you have to finally reach it | 13:10 |
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| Trooem | How's it going Kanzure. | 16:57 |
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| Trooem | if only we got along... | 18:00 |
| * Trooem is watching the shining. | 18:07 | |
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| * kanzure is back | 19:23 | |
| kanzure | hm where did genehacker go? | 19:23 |
| QuantumG | I'm gunna take a guess it wasn't to hack genes | 19:23 |
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| kanzure | i showed him some shop space | 19:24 |
| Trooem | kanzure. | 19:35 |
| Trooem | i've missed ya buddy. how's it going? | 19:38 |
| Trooem | come on, let's get along. | 19:39 |
| QuantumG | http://lesswrong.com/lw/i5/bayesian_judo/ | 19:39 |
| Trooem | we never would've had problems if we met in person. It was all about the trust issue wasn't it. | 19:39 |
| QuantumG | shut your hole Trooem | 19:40 |
| Trooem | who the heck are you QuantumG | 19:40 |
| Trooem | you got problems with me? | 19:40 |
| QuantumG | I'm the guy telling you to stop talking to the guy who is obviously ignoring you | 19:40 |
| QuantumG | if you prefer, I'll just ignore you too | 19:41 |
| Trooem | .... | 19:41 |
| Trooem | don't tell me i was the only wrong one. | 19:42 |
| Trooem | come on kanzure. I may have something you might find incredibly interesting. | 19:43 |
| Trooem | how about i go straight there to texas. | 19:44 |
| QuantumG | what part of /ignore don't you understand? | 19:44 |
| QuantumG | he can't hear you | 19:44 |
| Trooem | what part of i don't give a damn don't you understand. | 19:44 |
| Trooem | whatever. | 19:44 |
| strages | kanzure: I don't know anything about hektor, tell me more. | 19:45 |
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| -!- Trooem is now known as Torreto90 | 19:55 | |
| -!- Noahj [~noah@pool-71-243-14-197.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 19:56 | |
| -!- Torreto90 is now known as Torreto | 19:56 | |
| Torreto | you may want to hear me out kanzure | 19:57 |
| Torreto | that's just fine, your loss :P | 19:58 |
| -!- Noahj [~noah@pool-71-243-14-197.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 19:58 | |
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| thesnark | What an ass | 20:00 |
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| kanzure | oh, i'm not ignoring Trooem | 20:01 |
| kanzure | i'm just not around | 20:01 |
| Torreto | oh | 20:01 |
| -!- Torreto is now known as Trooem | 20:01 | |
| Trooem | ok | 20:01 |
| kanzure | strages: hektor is this whiteboard pulley system thingy | 20:01 |
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| parolang | So...do you guys IRC each other within the same hackerspace? | 20:09 |
| -!- Noahj1 [~noah@pool-71-243-14-197.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 20:09 | |
| kanzure | parolang: it's been known to happen | 20:09 |
| bkero | Yea, especially at NYCResistor | 20:10 |
| parolang | heh | 20:10 |
| -!- thesnark [~michael@ppp-69-221-3-3.dsl.toldoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: "FFFFUUUU-"] | 20:10 | |
| kanzure | bkero: you're nowhere near nycresistor :P | 20:10 |
| parolang | xkcd could get a couple of comics out of that :) | 20:10 |
| bkero | kanzure: Yea, but I was there before. :P | 20:10 |
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| kanzure | i think randall has this explicit "if you tell me the idea, i will never ever use it" policy.. so you should let him come up with it on his own | 20:11 |
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| -!- Noahj [~noah@pool-70-22-200-77.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap | 20:24 | |
| Alystair | in hacklabto as well | 21:01 |
| kanzure | what? | 21:01 |
| Alystair | if people are in hack mode | 21:01 |
| Alystair | @parolang | 21:01 |
| kanzure | ah | 21:01 |
| Alystair | shit it's late no more IRC | 21:02 |
| Alystair | need to finish typing | 21:02 |
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| -!- Alystair [Alystair@bas1-toronto10-1279555684.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] | 21:58 | |
| Yocttar | Morning! | 22:14 |
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| -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:41 | |
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| Utopiah | (OVP: Fast Simulation, Free Open Source Models. Virtual Platforms for software development http://www.ovpworld.org/ ) | 23:31 |
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