| --- Day changed Wed Jun 16 2010 | ||
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| Utopiah | another article using "yak shaving" http://sheddingbikes.com/posts/1276624594.html (on the nice tiny Fossil-SCM) | 00:42 |
|---|---|---|
| jrayhawk | Huh, that looks handy. | 00:49 |
| Utopiah | (my notes on Fossil http://fabien.benetou.fr/Tools/Fossil?action=print ) | 00:50 |
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| Utopiah | Go To University, Not For CS http://sheddingbikes.com/posts/1275258018.html | 02:32 |
| Utopiah | (IMHO, f*cking brillant blog post...) | 02:35 |
| faceface | my web design friend sent me some unsolicited feedback on http://gnusha.org/ | 02:42 |
| faceface | just passing it on in case it's remotely usefull | 02:42 |
| faceface | Is that mono-space? That is a long article. I'm not sure who its aimed at. The type isn't as bad or as hard to read as I first thought but I think it is a deliberately technical looking which is mistake if this is an introduction to n00bs. | 02:42 |
| faceface | The copy (the little I have read) is good, but I think a sharp summary is missing. | 02:43 |
| faceface | It could benefit from some clear heading, and I'm not sure about including links in the middle of articles (although I don't have a real solution, maybe further reading section?) | 02:43 |
| faceface | Also the three youtube pannels are blank on my machine, with nothing to tell mat they are there. | 02:43 |
| Yocttar | Utopiah - not a very much convincing article - only covers one side of the story ;) | 02:45 |
| Utopiah | care to elaborate | 02:46 |
| Yocttar | and the education today imho MUST have a revolution.. | 02:46 |
| Utopiah | sure | 02:46 |
| Yocttar | about the 1 side, its obvious the editor is on the "learn in the university" side, almost nothing objective in that arcticle | 02:47 |
| Yocttar | article* | 02:47 |
| Yocttar | sure people need to get some sort of education, but not the way we get it today | 02:48 |
| Yocttar | most of the time people use only 5% of what they've learned | 02:49 |
| Yocttar | which means you waste more then 3.5 years of your best years for nothing. | 02:49 |
| Yocttar | (this is the general case today) | 02:49 |
| Utopiah | I think the dichotomy he's doing is IT job straight out of high school for self-taught genious programmer vs. going to uni to broaden your scope and for example use your CS skills for bioinformatics | 02:50 |
| Utopiah | or just because IT in itself is not enough and plainly a risky bet if you dont understand the industry | 02:50 |
| Utopiah | (which is most likely the case when you are very young and still discovering the technology, not the economy) | 02:50 |
| Utopiah | I dont think he is against p2p uni, self-education, etc | 02:51 |
| Yocttar | well, the way I get it, he wants everyone to go to the uni. | 02:53 |
| Utopiah | the way I get it is that you are a very young self-tought programmer he thinks he'll conquer the world with his mad asm/Haskell skills ... and that's very short sighted so beware | 02:54 |
| Utopiah | (I don't mean "you" as Yocttar ;) | 02:54 |
| Yocttar | I kinda agree on that part | 02:56 |
| Yocttar | but in my country (Israel), getting to that state of mind is pretty difficult, if you are a good programmer, the army will put you in the right place (where you will learn CS ofc, along with life science) | 02:58 |
| Utopiah | in the short run it's a good bet | 02:59 |
| Utopiah | and the truth is, IMHO, if you can educate yourself though other means, as you suggested, it might very well be the best option | 03:00 |
| Utopiah | but it's not necessarily easy | 03:01 |
| Yocttar | and the harder the task you accomplish, the better you become. (just like in video games) | 03:04 |
| Utopiah | supposing you learn from your mistakes | 03:06 |
| QuantumG | or even successes | 03:08 |
| Utopiah | maybe harder to understand | 03:09 |
| Utopiah | I mean that often you can test why sth failed but sucess you dont really know which specific component or the the network of actions lead to it, no? | 03:09 |
| Utopiah | (except if you can reproduce the sucess several times) | 03:10 |
| QuantumG | either way to have to assign kudos | 03:12 |
| QuantumG | or, if you prefer, blame | 03:13 |
| splicer | (You test both success and failiure scenarios the same by setting up falsifiable hypothesis.) | 03:13 |
| jrayhawk | University, as with all things in life, is a twentieth as effective if you do not have a self-actualized value system with which to establish goals for yourself to pursue. | 03:14 |
| jrayhawk | Schools, unlike most things in life, are specifically structured to undermine your capacity to self-actualize. | 03:14 |
| jrayhawk | Thus you cannot enter university with the expectation that you will be better for it for no other reason than that it is university. | 03:15 |
| QuantumG | I thought you were going to say it was a degenerative form of bending for a minute there | 03:15 |
| jrayhawk | s/cannot/cannot safely/ | 03:16 |
| Utopiah | splicer: but with failure you remove a component and it fails, so it's easy to check, but sucess you only know that the system overall works as expected | 03:16 |
| Utopiah | you dont necessarily each step that lead to it and why | 03:17 |
| Utopiah | you dont necessarily know each step that lead to it and why | 03:18 |
| splicer | Utopiah: so you remove the component you think leads to success and see what happens. | 03:19 |
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| Utopiah | but then the system don't work | 03:21 |
| splicer | and then you have a clue as to why | 03:21 |
| Utopiah | you have multiple variables to judge efficiency, it's more complex then work/dont work | 03:21 |
| splicer | i don't think science knows of another way | 03:22 |
| QuantumG | there's statistical analysis | 03:22 |
| QuantumG | basically the passive version of what you just said | 03:22 |
| Utopiah | sure, Im just saying it's more costly | 03:22 |
| jrayhawk | Re: Gnusha.org design: I think that, unless it switches to centered text, font colors/sizes/weights/typefaces/styles that change every paragraph, and adds lots of tangential incomprehensible charts, it'll never be taken as seriously as timecube. | 03:32 |
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| splicer | gnusha.org design: very transhumanist | 03:39 |
| QuantumG | Dear NASA employees, things you hear while hanging at the water cooler are not "facts". kthxbye. | 03:43 |
| QuantumG | I'd love to extend that to internal briefings too | 03:44 |
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| kanzure | faceface: maybe your design friend would like to do better for me? | 04:28 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: +1 for mentioning timecube | 04:28 |
| Utopiah | for you I bet no, for the cause you defended during H+ summit, sure ;) | 04:28 |
| splicer | kanzure: why don't you just throw it up in a cms like wordpress or something? | 05:28 |
| Utopiah | ? http://test.brandchemistry.com.au/diy-chemistry/ | 05:37 |
| splicer | (chemistry as in chemists-shop/drug-store) | 05:39 |
| kanzure | because content management systems are for wimps | 05:40 |
| splicer | i forgot | 05:40 |
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| kanzure | hi pmetzger | 06:03 |
| kanzure | (08:07:06 AM) Brian Degger: i am interested in the possibility SKDB, where you ask the system for a thing and it gives a prediction on whenthat will occur | 06:04 |
| kanzure | looks like someone doesn't understand :/ | 06:04 |
| pmetzger | Morning, Kanzure. | 06:05 |
| pmetzger | Prediction is difficult, especially of the future. | 06:06 |
| pmetzger | For myself, even my record of predicting the past is flawed. | 06:06 |
| kanzure | no i mean he got the idea of skdb wrong ;-) | 06:07 |
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| kanzure | hi JayDugger | 06:10 |
| JayDugger | Good morning, kanzure. | 06:10 |
| splicer | is time a parameter in skdb, as in 'with this tool this widget will take s seconds to manufacture'? | 06:10 |
| pmetzger | That could depend on multiple parameters. | 06:11 |
| kanzure | not at the moment, although time estimates might be doable (they will probably be "expected worst-case scenario estimates") | 06:11 |
| kanzure | or expected best case scenario estimates (but these are useless since best case scenarios don't happen all the time) | 06:11 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: would an atom-by-atom API for constructing designs of nanotech be useful to you? | 06:16 |
| kanzure | something like carbon[12].append(some_nitrogen) or even higher-level stuff for 100 to 1000-atom large constructs | 06:17 |
| pmetzger | It would be difficult to do. Unfortunately, atoms aren't as easy to manipulate as tinkertoys. :| | 06:18 |
| pmetzger | I mean, if that was possible it would be cool, but chemistry doesn't work exactly like machining. :| | 06:18 |
| pmetzger | Ultimately, designs will have to come with construction instructions, but I think we'll need more research before we understand what those instructions look like. | 06:19 |
| pmetzger | In particular, right now we know approximately how to construct diamondoid blocks, which can be used to build crude machines. We don't know how to construct things like the very precise bearings you find in Nanosystems, though we're reasonably sure they can be built. | 06:20 |
| pmetzger | (FYI, I suspect what we'll do is build fairly large, inefficient machines out of diamondoid and then use them to build better.) | 06:20 |
| kanzure | have you seen this before? the productive nanosystems movie thingy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqyZ9bFl_qg | 06:21 |
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| pmetzger | yes. | 06:23 |
| splicer | stupid question: Are there other large non repetitive molecules than DNA and proteins? | 06:23 |
| pmetzger | Yes. There are other aperiodic polymers, both in nature and manufactured. | 06:23 |
| pmetzger | the manufactured ones tend to be randomly aperiodic. | 06:23 |
| splicer | ah.. thanks | 06:24 |
| pmetzger | (the result of polymerizing two monomers with random attachment) | 06:24 |
| pmetzger | in nature, there is of course RNA, and there are a bunch of carbohydrates that are composed of multiple sugars (though not, to my knowledge, in a designed aperiodic pattern.) | 06:24 |
| pmetzger | There may be others in nature. | 06:26 |
| kanzure | i uploaded more stuff: http://designfiles.org/papers/nanotech/ | 06:31 |
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| kanzure | hi LilxHK | 06:39 |
| LilxHK | hi | 06:39 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: have you ever met freitas? | 06:39 |
| pmetzger | yes. | 06:40 |
| pmetzger | multiple times. | 06:40 |
| kanzure | what's he like in person? i haven't run into him yet | 06:40 |
| pmetzger | He's fairly sedate. | 06:40 |
| kanzure | but KSRM is like my bible for skdb-related stuff | 06:40 |
| pmetzger | He tends to read his talks off of a piece of paper. He's insanely thorough. | 06:41 |
| kanzure | "insanely thorough" indeed | 06:41 |
| pmetzger | You've read his Nanomedicine books? | 06:41 |
| kanzure | no, but i've read (most of) KSRM | 06:41 |
| pmetzger | I haven't read KSRM. I keep meaning to. | 06:42 |
| pmetzger | I suppose I should buy a copy first. :) | 06:42 |
| JayDugger | pmetzger: Did you work at or visit Zyvex? | 06:46 |
| pmetzger | No, never been there. | 06:49 |
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| pmetzger | Not in either incarnation of Zyvex... | 06:49 |
| faceface | kanzure: quite possibly.. I'll ask him | 06:52 |
| pmetzger | BTW, that nanofactory animation is both good and bad. It is cool in that it gives you the general idea, but it has some inaccuracies in it. For example, what's holding the acetylene molecules onto that rotor? | 06:52 |
| pmetzger | How do "grippers" hold on to a depassivated diamond block without reacting with it? | 06:53 |
| pmetzger | this is not to say that the concepts are wrong at a high level, but they are often wrong at a low level. | 06:53 |
| kanzure | oh. i liked it because of the low level stuff.. the other stuff is "obvious" | 06:54 |
| pmetzger | :) | 06:54 |
| pmetzger | not every part of the low level stuff is wrong, just a bunch of it. The idea of sorting rotors is correct, for example. | 06:54 |
| pmetzger | or at least a real idea. :) | 06:54 |
| pmetzger | I had a conversation once with Merkle about taking molecule sorting further and making sure you ended up with no carbon thirteen or tritium or what have you in your final product to reduce the risk of radiation damage from internal decays. Might not be worth it, I never calculated the internal damage vs. cosmic ray rate. (I suppose I could look both of those up in Nanosystems. I' | 06:56 |
| pmetzger | ve been lazy.) | 06:56 |
| kanzure | what's eugen's jabber server and username? | 06:57 |
| pmetzger | I'm asking him if he minds, hang on... | 06:58 |
| pmetzger | (He doesn't answer IMs very fast.) | 06:59 |
| pmetzger | If you have his gmail address though you already know. | 06:59 |
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| kanzure | oh | 07:02 |
| kanzure | that's kinda disappointing actually | 07:02 |
| pmetzger | ??? | 07:02 |
| kanzure | it implies that he uses the gmail.com interface | 07:03 |
| pmetzger | not really. | 07:03 |
| pmetzger | they have jabber servers. | 07:03 |
| kanzure | right, which is what i use 8) | 07:03 |
| pmetzger | I don't know what interface he uses, but I've used gmail.com sometimes with ichat or pidgin... | 07:03 |
| * kanzure nods | 07:05 | |
| kanzure | does anyone know what's up with this? http://trillennium.com/ | 07:05 |
| kanzure | they told me to contact them | 07:05 |
| pmetzger | looks pretty random. | 07:08 |
| pmetzger | back in a couple of hours. | 07:08 |
| JayDugger | Business consultants? | 07:19 |
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| JayDugger | I've not heard of them before now. | 07:21 |
| kanzure | the guy was very enthusiastic to meet me and gave me four or five business cards to emphasize how much he wanted a follow-up | 07:22 |
| JayDugger | I really don't know enough about business consulting and "process engineering" to give good advice. | 07:23 |
| JayDugger | In fact, I've deleted more lines than I've typed on this subject. Rather than pad my ignorance with text, I'll just keep quiet. | 07:25 |
| kanzure | http://idsa.org/ industrial designers society of america | 07:52 |
| kanzure | http://www.idsa.org/absolutenm/templates/?a=5120&z=31 | 07:52 |
| kanzure | DIY: Threat or Opportunity | 07:52 |
| kanzure | "With the advance of technology and globalization, anyone can design, customize and build almost anything. Whether it is catering to one or catering to the masses, the DIY movement has created a multi-billion dollar market. DIY is a means of self-expressions, and has inspired companies like Nike, T-Mobile and Apple to empower and engage customers." | 07:52 |
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| kanzure | hahah $1700 to attend? wtf | 07:53 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: that's in your neck of the woods, fyi | 07:53 |
| kanzure | haa! smari is going to have to get a new name | 07:55 |
| kanzure | http://tangible.media.mit.edu/ | 07:55 |
| kanzure | i <3 media lab | 07:55 |
| kanzure | http://tangible.media.mit.edu/project.php?recid=122 | 07:55 |
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| kanzure | hi parolang, hi eridu | 07:59 |
| parolang | hey | 07:59 |
| * parolang is getting his computer today :) | 08:00 | |
| kanzure | i have no idea what's going on here: http://fare.tunes.org/plan.txt | 08:04 |
| kanzure | "I won't tell you my Vietnamese name, because it doesn't fit the iso-latin-1 encoding." | 08:04 |
| kanzure | http://ciev.meta.ph/ | 08:05 |
| kanzure | http://meta.ph/or/ | 08:05 |
| eridu | kanzure: hello | 08:08 |
| kanzure | stalk: François-René Rideau | 08:09 |
| kanzure | stalk: Ðang-Vu Bân | 08:09 |
| parolang | He at least used to be on freenode. | 08:10 |
| parolang | As `fare'. | 08:11 |
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| mheld | I'm planning on getting one pragprog book, should I pick up Programming Scala or Seven Languages in Seven Weeks? | 08:55 |
| kanzure | hm.. scala is kinda trendy these days | 08:56 |
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| mheld | well, I'm learning scala regardless | 08:57 |
| mheld | and I come from a FP background | 08:57 |
| mheld | I just don't know whether or not I want to dive deep into scala or learn a bit about a few languages I haven't had a chance to dive into | 08:58 |
| mheld | clojure won't be too new to me | 08:58 |
| mheld | ruby I'm great with | 08:58 |
| mheld | io should be pretty fine (JS) | 08:58 |
| mheld | and I've got some erlang experience | 08:58 |
| mheld | it's mostly prolog, haskell, and scala that I'd be playing around with | 08:59 |
| mheld | and I want an epub | 08:59 |
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| pmetzger | Fare is a lisp hacker. Was at H+. | 09:33 |
| kanzure | yeah, i had his card and was trying to do a follow-up thing | 09:38 |
| pmetzger | He works for ITA. Hacks airline software for them in common lisp. I think they're in negotiations to be bought by google. | 09:42 |
| pmetzger | I'm making up new cards. They say only "Mad Scientist" and my email. :) | 09:42 |
| kanzure | ANGRY scientist, i'm an ANGRY scientist | 09:47 |
| fenn | fwiw many bacteria use a specific sequence of sugars in a chain in order to identify themselves | 09:49 |
| pmetzger | I'm just mad. | 09:49 |
| fenn | as part of their LPS coat | 09:49 |
| pmetzger | fenn: I thought many eukaryotes did that too. | 09:49 |
| pmetzger | though my molbio foo is weak. | 09:49 |
| pmetzger | s/foo/fu/ | 09:50 |
| pmetzger | In vertibrates, we use MHC for a similar purpose, but that's a protein... | 09:51 |
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| kanzure | how much money should i ask for | 10:03 |
| fenn | over 9000!!! | 10:04 |
| kanzure | not helpful | 10:09 |
| fenn | pff whatever | 10:09 |
| kanzure | how much would it cost to get you out of the business world | 10:10 |
| fenn | a plane ticket to brazil | 10:10 |
| kanzure | why brazil? | 10:10 |
| * fenn shrugs | 10:10 | |
| kanzure | huh. okay. | 10:11 |
| kanzure | that's actually not much.. | 10:11 |
| kanzure | would a rickety boat be acceptable? | 10:11 |
| fenn | no | 10:11 |
| kanzure | heh | 10:11 |
| fenn | actually i would like to have some money of my own, so as not to be constantly at the mercy of whatever | 10:11 |
| kanzure | sure | 10:12 |
| kanzure | cool andrew did a ted talk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehBeMeH69O0 | 10:12 |
| pmetzger | TEDx. | 10:13 |
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| fenn | aka faketed | 10:13 |
| fenn | oh wait that's bil, lol | 10:13 |
| fenn | fakefaketed | 10:14 |
| kanzure | heh | 10:15 |
| pmetzger | some TEDx talks end up on the main TED site. | 10:16 |
| fenn | hum i guess i dont have nanosystems after all | 10:18 |
| pmetzger | my mantra: easily bought cheap used via amazon. :) | 10:20 |
| fenn | but that's just some pieces of paper, not THE BOOK | 10:20 |
| pmetzger | ? | 10:20 |
| * pmetzger doesn't quite understand. | 10:20 | |
| fenn | when will people learn that having an end product laying around is not equivalent to owning it | 10:20 |
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| pmetzger | ah, you mean you want elecronic copy. | 10:21 |
| fenn | say an iphone crashes in the year 1969, can they do anything useful with it? not really | 10:21 |
| pmetzger | but a scan is in turn not as good as having the original source... | 10:21 |
| fenn | bullshit | 10:21 |
| kanzure | well, "a scan" maybe.. | 10:21 |
| pmetzger | Very hard to OCR the equations correctly. | 10:22 |
| kanzure | then latex them | 10:22 |
| pmetzger | and presumably one would, in an ideal world, like to have many of them as a mathematica notebook... :) | 10:22 |
| pmetzger | ah, but latexing them = having the source, if only by reconstructing it. :) | 10:22 |
| fenn | i'd rather they not use hieroglyphics in the first place | 10:22 |
| pmetzger | still, I have to confess that I don't understand what we're talking about really. :) | 10:22 |
| * kanzure nods | 10:22 | |
| pmetzger | heiroglyphics? | 10:23 |
| kanzure | math | 10:23 |
| kanzure | math symbology crap | 10:23 |
| fenn | those funny almost arbitrary squiggles that academics like to use in order to frustrate non-academics | 10:23 |
| pmetzger | the language of physics is math. hard to convey math without symbols. | 10:23 |
| fenn | hard to convey math with hieroglyphics | 10:23 |
| kanzure | :) | 10:23 |
| fenn | it's so non-rigorous | 10:23 |
| pmetzger | you prefer what, formal systems? | 10:24 |
| fenn | a defined syntax that i could look up wtf X stands for would be nice | 10:24 |
| pmetzger | having worked with formal systems, you don't want a book written in, say, the calculus of inductive constructions... | 10:24 |
| pmetzger | I have to confess I have no trouble reading the math in "Nanosystems". My main problem with Drexler is that he hasn't updated the book in 20 years, but it is still almost completely relevent. | 10:25 |
| fenn | any ideas why a virtualbox vm would only download ~50kB of stuff each time i do apt-get and then stall? (i can keep doing it over and over and get another 50kB each time) | 10:25 |
| kanzure | hrm | 10:25 |
| pmetzger | tcpdump is your friend. | 10:25 |
| pmetzger | run tcpdump on the host and watch all the packets. it usually tells you what has happened. | 10:26 |
| pmetzger | or if you're less macho, whatever they renamed ethereal to... | 10:26 |
| fenn | host is windows | 10:26 |
| pmetzger | run tcpdump on the guest then. | 10:26 |
| pmetzger | less good but beggars can't be choosers... | 10:26 |
| pmetzger | I presume this is debian or ubuntu? | 10:27 |
| kanzure | he can't install software on the windows box i think (but how'd he get virtualbox?) | 10:27 |
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| fenn | i'm admin on the windows box | 10:28 |
| fenn | i just dont know how to use windows :P | 10:28 |
| pmetzger | you show great taste in your ignorance. | 10:28 |
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| pmetzger | If I could forget how to use windows I would. | 10:28 |
| fenn | well i see packets going by but i dont see any reason they should stop | 10:32 |
| fenn | http seems to work fine in a web browser.. wtf | 10:35 |
| kanzure | http://www.geyservac.com/articles/vacuum-beginners-guide.html A Complete Beginner's Guide to Vacuum History, Terminology, & Technology | 10:36 |
| kanzure | Technology | 10:36 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes but are you loading >50kb | 10:36 |
| kanzure | in the browser | 10:36 |
| fenn | yeah | 10:36 |
| kanzure | hrm | 10:36 |
| kanzure | what are the repositories? | 10:36 |
| kanzure | in /etc/apt/sources.list | 10:36 |
| kanzure | standard stuff? | 10:37 |
| pmetzger | As I said, when I have this sort of issue, I find tcpdump is the only way to go. | 10:37 |
| fenn | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehBeMeH69O0 | 10:37 |
| fenn | hm | 10:37 |
| pmetzger | for example, it might turn out that you're having window scale negotiation issues with the server | 10:37 |
| pmetzger | or some other crap like that. | 10:37 |
| fenn | copy paste doesnt work huh | 10:37 |
| fenn | us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ lucid main restricted (etc) | 10:37 |
| pmetzger | of course, if you can't read the output, it won't do you any good... | 10:37 |
| kanzure | looks like a fairly standard repo | 10:38 |
| fenn | yeah i just downloaded the cd iso and booted it up | 10:38 |
| fenn | apparently vim didnt make the cut | 10:38 |
| kanzure | what about vi? | 10:38 |
| fenn | god knows what else they put in the other 699 MB | 10:38 |
| kanzure | porn | 10:38 |
| fenn | weird. vi works and shows the VIM splash screen | 10:39 |
| kanzure | ok, i have enough data | 10:39 |
| kanzure | theory: windows makes fenn more stoopid | 10:39 |
| fenn | it might be the drugs they put in the water | 10:39 |
| pmetzger | I presume there is a firewall between you and the internet? | 10:39 |
| fenn | must.. satisfy customer ... requirements | 10:40 |
| fenn | yeah there's a firewall. you think they are squelching ubuntu.com? | 10:40 |
| pmetzger | My suggestion: turn off tcp window scaling and see if it suddenly works. | 10:40 |
| pmetzger | no, my suspicion is that it fucks up TCP window scaling. | 10:40 |
| fenn | how do i do that? | 10:40 |
| pmetzger | sysctl. | 10:40 |
| pmetzger | hang on, I'll find you the right sysctl. | 10:41 |
| kanzure | oh on ubuntu? | 10:41 |
| fenn | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehBeMeH69O0 | 10:41 |
| fenn | gah | 10:41 |
| fenn | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehBeMeH69O0 | 10:41 |
| fenn | fuck this | 10:41 |
| kanzure | ahah | 10:41 |
| fenn | sysctl net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=0 sound right? | 10:42 |
| pmetzger | no. | 10:42 |
| pmetzger | but I'll know when I've read the man page. | 10:42 |
| fenn | echo "net.ipv4.tcp_window_scaling=-">>syctl.conf ? | 10:42 |
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| pmetzger | no, type sysctl -w net.ipv4.tcp_window_scaling=0 | 10:43 |
| pmetzger | you can add that to sysctl.conf later. | 10:43 |
| pmetzger | but first just try it out. | 10:43 |
| pmetzger | and I found it just as you typed that. | 10:43 |
| pmetzger | once you've turned off window scaling, try an apt-get and see what happens. | 10:44 |
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| pmetzger | it is easier to diagnose this with tcpdump but I take it you can't read raw TCP packets... | 10:44 |
| pmetzger | if window scaling isn't the issue, my next guess is path mtu discovery fuckage. | 10:45 |
| pmetzger | but I don't know if it would be easy to fix that. | 10:45 |
| pmetzger | so anyway, did it do anything? | 10:45 |
| fenn | no | 10:45 |
| pmetzger | can you check that it was set (use sysctl -a and grep for the setting) | 10:46 |
| fenn | says 0 | 10:46 |
| pmetzger | okay, so it took. | 10:47 |
| pmetzger | really the right thing to do here is to run tcpdump... | 10:47 |
| pmetzger | I will walk you through that. | 10:47 |
| fenn | ok | 10:47 |
| pmetzger | first, is tcpdump installed on the box? | 10:47 |
| pmetzger | if it isn't, we have recursive fuckage since apt-get won't work. :) | 10:47 |
| fenn | yeah tcpdump is installed | 10:48 |
| fenn | and i can install things, it just takes a while | 10:48 |
| pmetzger | okay, I presume the fake eithernet controller is en0? | 10:48 |
| fenn | eth0 | 10:48 |
| pmetzger | that's what I meant. | 10:48 |
| pmetzger | so you want to do tcpdump -i eth0 host whateverthenameofthepackageserveris | 10:48 |
| pmetzger | in one window | 10:48 |
| pmetzger | while you do an apt-get in another | 10:48 |
| fenn | so i see some stuff like 10:47:28.1234134 IP lotus.ovt.com.domain > fenn-virtualbox.local.40876: 34458 NXDomain 0/1/0 (100) | 10:49 |
| pmetzger | I'll want to see the last few packets from the connection. | 10:49 |
| pmetzger | if you don't do the "host blah" thing it will show you *all* packets on the interface | 10:49 |
| fenn | fenn-virtualbox.local.mdns > 224.0.0.251.mdns: 0 PTR (QM)? 2.2.0.10.in-addr.arpa. (39) | 10:49 |
| pmetzger | that one is again not a packet from your package server. :) | 10:49 |
| pmetzger | you want to see only the ones from that server so you need the "host" restriction | 10:50 |
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| fenn | the package server changes each time, it's named after dead scifi authors or something | 10:50 |
| fenn | ok i will just grep for canonical.com | 10:51 |
| pmetzger | nah. | 10:51 |
| pmetzger | buffering will kill you then. | 10:51 |
| fenn | seems to work ok | 10:51 |
| pmetzger | just nail down the server by editing the apt config file. | 10:51 |
| pmetzger | if it works it works. | 10:52 |
| fenn | anyway i can tell you the last lien if you want | 10:52 |
| pmetzger | I'll want to see the last three or four packet exchanges | 10:52 |
| fenn | 10:51:30.123123 IP drescher.canonical.com.www > fenn-virtualbox.local.56872: Flags [.], seq 178061:179481, ack 420 win 65535, length 1420 | 10:52 |
| fenn | oh maybe i can just ssh from inside the virtualbox | 10:53 |
| kanzure | hah | 10:53 |
| fenn | ok that works | 10:53 |
| pmetzger | do you have the last four packet exchanges in both directions? | 10:55 |
| pmetzger | it is hard without seeing both the data packets and the acks... | 10:55 |
| fenn | http://pastebin.ca/1884526 | 10:55 |
| fenn | see anything unusual? | 10:56 |
| pmetzger | the one you sent me before in icb has a length of 1420. these have lengths of 1380. that's odd. | 10:57 |
| pmetzger | also the push flag is set, which is really really weird. | 10:57 |
| fenn | a lot of them have length 0 | 10:57 |
| pmetzger | those are the acks from you to them. | 10:57 |
| pmetzger | they would have a length of zero because the only thing important in the packet is the ack itself. | 10:58 |
| pmetzger | you aren't sending them data | 10:58 |
| fenn | ok | 10:58 |
| pmetzger | so it hung hard after line 43, not doing anything else? | 10:58 |
| pmetzger | and for how long? | 10:58 |
| pmetzger | I would have expected to see a retransmit of your ack. | 10:59 |
| fenn | sorry, i hit ctrl-c for some reason | 10:59 |
| fenn | 10:58:52.723543 IP drescher.canonical.com.www > fenn-virtualbox.local.52263: Flags [P.], seq 66309650:66311030, ack 2021303126, win 65535, length 1380 | 10:59 |
| fenn | 10:58:52.723592 IP fenn-virtualbox.local.52263 > drescher.canonical.com.www: Flags [.], ack 1380, win 65535, length 0 | 10:59 |
| pmetzger | could you do the dump into a file, do the apt get, wait until it times out, ^C the tcpdump and paste the grep? | 11:00 |
| pmetzger | but the first two things I don't get at all are why your length is 1380 and why they're setting push. | 11:00 |
| pmetzger | no fucking sense in either thing | 11:00 |
| fenn | that's what i thought i did. anyway, will dump the whole thing again | 11:01 |
| pmetzger | wait until the apt-get dies. | 11:01 |
| pmetzger | which may take some minutes | 11:01 |
| fenn | of course now it's working correctly :\ | 11:01 |
| pmetzger | it is? perhaps we fixed it! :) | 11:01 |
| fenn | -_- | 11:01 |
| pmetzger | so anyway, you know how to read what you're seeing here for the future? | 11:02 |
| fenn | sort of | 11:02 |
| pmetzger | each packet is preceeded by the timestamp. | 11:02 |
| pmetzger | you then get source and dest addresses | 11:02 |
| pmetzger | the > is a mnemonic for which is which | 11:02 |
| fenn | right | 11:02 |
| pmetzger | the port numbers are included so you can distinguish different connections | 11:02 |
| pmetzger | "flags" tells you what flags are set on the packet. ack, push, syn, reset are the most prominent ones. | 11:03 |
| pmetzger | oh, and fin (end of connection) and urgent. | 11:03 |
| pmetzger | the sequence number increments for every byte sent, it is independent per direction | 11:04 |
| pmetzger | the reciever acks up to a particular sequence number, saying it has gotten everything up to that point. | 11:04 |
| fenn | for every byte? not each packet? | 11:04 |
| pmetzger | correct. | 11:04 |
| pmetzger | retransmissions can combine data from multiple packets if they were under the MTU length. | 11:04 |
| pmetzger | the window is how far behind you can be on getting acks before you'll stop transmitting. | 11:05 |
| pmetzger | this allows you to deal with the latency on real lines -- multiple packets can be in flight at once. | 11:05 |
| pmetzger | most of the rest is pretty easy to puzzle out. | 11:05 |
| pmetzger | you can usually figure out what is going wrong with the network by looking right at it this way. | 11:05 |
| pmetzger | though in our case, other than the mysterious short length of these data packets, the fact that they have PUSH set for no obvious reason, and the fact that it fixed itself, I have little to note. :) | 11:06 |
| fenn | right, well, thanks for the help even if we have no idea what was going on | 11:06 |
| pmetzger | :) | 11:06 |
| kanzure | as punishment for your ignorance you must now go rewrite the tcp stack layer in the kernel | 11:07 |
| pmetzger | again? | 11:07 |
| pmetzger | I hate doing that. | 11:07 |
| fenn | shore thing boss, where do yu want it stacked? | 11:07 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: i meant fenn :) | 11:07 |
| pmetzger | my guess is still that the firewall/NAT was interfering with MTU discovery or the window negotiation, but that's a guess. | 11:08 |
| eridu | kanzure: where are the logs for this channel again? | 11:12 |
| pmetzger | gnusha.org/logs ? | 11:13 |
| eridu | pmetzger: thanks | 11:14 |
| eridu | darn, that seems to be out of date | 11:15 |
| eridu | does anyone have a link to that fake yudkowsky twitter account? | 11:15 |
| pmetzger | fakeelizer | 11:15 |
| pmetzger | http://twitter.com/FakeEliezer | 11:15 |
| pmetzger | hrm. he says one should ignore anything he wrote before about 2001. | 11:17 |
| fenn | he says that every year | 11:17 |
| pmetzger | I will admit that his comments to Marvin Minsky were a few years before that. | 11:17 |
| pmetzger | (significantly in fact) | 11:18 |
| pmetzger | he was a teenager at the time, perhaps one shouldn't in fact hold him to such things. | 11:19 |
| eridu | I would hope not | 11:21 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/irclogs.txt is the most recent version, but it's a big download | 11:22 |
| eridu | !help | 11:22 |
| eridu | I wish they were dated | 11:22 |
| kanzure | wish what were dated? | 11:23 |
| pmetzger | the logs I presume. | 11:23 |
| kanzure | irclogs.txt are dated.. the day changes are mentioned in the logs, but they can be hard to spot | 11:23 |
| eridu | just saw that | 11:23 |
| pmetzger | it is dangerous to date logs. you can get splinters in very uncomfortable places. | 11:23 |
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| kanzure | hi streety | 12:02 |
| streety | hi | 12:03 |
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| pmetzger | going to try switching to colloquy as my client, bbiaf. | 12:16 |
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| pmetzger | Hopefully this is working. :) | 12:22 |
| pmetzger | oh, wild. the topic video starts with Patri Friedman. :) | 12:23 |
| kanzure | :) | 12:27 |
| pmetzger | Okay, Colloquy is definitely buggier than I like. | 12:27 |
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| pmetzger | anyone have recommendations on OS X IRC clients? | 12:56 |
| genehacker | pmetzger could you give me a link to the process for making diamond mechanosynthesis tooltips in solution and the process for making them from other tooltips? | 12:59 |
| pmetzger | there are no papers for making them in solution per se. there are papers on the chemistry of adamantanes out there. IIRC the wikipedia article on adamantanes is pretty good. (I presume you have an organic chem background?) | 12:59 |
| pmetzger | as for making them from other tooltips, the big tooltip paper by Merkle & Freitas is what you want, let me find a link. | 13:00 |
| genehacker | I don't | 13:00 |
| genehacker | I've probably read that one | 13:00 |
| genehacker | http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/PathDiamMolMfg.htm | 13:00 |
| pmetzger | http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/MinToolset.pdf | 13:01 |
| genehacker | anyway if you want IRC clients try wikipedia, they have a list of pretty much all of them | 13:01 |
| pmetzger | The list isn't by OS sadly. I looked. :) | 13:01 |
| pmetzger | anyway, if you don't have a background in orgo and you're interested, I'd start by reading an orgo text (say Maitland Jones', that one is pretty good...) | 13:02 |
| genehacker | oh thanks | 13:02 |
| genehacker | I was about to ask that | 13:02 |
| pmetzger | Making the tooltips by conventional synthesis is not necessarily feasible. | 13:02 |
| pmetzger | I suspect it is, but I don't know it for sure. | 13:02 |
| genehacker | btw would knowing organic chemistry help me with synthesizing simple compound? | 13:04 |
| pmetzger | yes. | 13:04 |
| pmetzger | if you're interested in Jones' text, I just checked Amazon and they shat out a 4th edition that they're charging like $140 for. | 13:05 |
| pmetzger | I'd just get the third edition used. | 13:05 |
| pmetzger | it isn't like you're going to benefit from all the big advances in intro organic chemistry in four years. | 13:05 |
| pmetzger | and you can get that edition for like $40 or less used. | 13:05 |
| pmetzger | you might also poke around on the net. | 13:06 |
| pmetzger | Unfortunately, DIY organic chem labs are now looked at askance by the feds. Buying glassware and the right kinds of compounds is a good way to get a visit from the DEA etc. | 13:06 |
| pmetzger | which pisses me endlessly off, but... | 13:07 |
| genehacker | I know what you mean, which is why I want to make a small one | 13:07 |
| pmetzger | ever work with glassware etc.? if not, I can recommend books on lab technique if you get serious. | 13:08 |
| pmetzger | BTW, the solutions for the problems in Jones are available as a second book you can buy. | 13:09 |
| genehacker | I've worked a bit with glassware | 13:11 |
| genehacker | but what I want to do is make a chemical factory on a chip | 13:11 |
| pmetzger | My one major piece of advice: there's lots of stuff you can play with in organic synthesis, unlike DIY mol bio projects, which can get you killed. One routinely works with very toxic substances if you're doing synthetic work. I worked in a lab for a while to get experience, and we had professional safety equipment, and even then I was often uncomfortable with instructions to, say, boil stuff in liquid bromine... | 13:11 |
| pmetzger | in a professional lab, you have fume hoods, toxic waste disposal systems, benchtops made from impervious crap, fire extinguishers, etc. in your garage, not so much. that would make me nervous. Doing PCR and stuff like that on the other hand, the worst that happens to you is you waste some money. | 13:16 |
| pmetzger | for an idea of what it can get like: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/things_i_wont_work_with/ | 13:19 |
| pmetzger | some of the entries there are utterly priceless | 13:21 |
| pmetzger | this is one of the better ones: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time.php | 13:24 |
| genehacker | this is a pretty funny one: | 13:48 |
| genehacker | http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2006/03/08/how_not_to_do_it_liquid_nitrogen_tanks.php | 13:48 |
| genehacker | no one was hurt | 13:48 |
| streety | that site is a dangerous time sink. Interesting though :) | 13:51 |
| Yocttar | gotta agree with streety ;) | 13:51 |
| * fenn snickers | 13:54 | |
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| fenn | "[Anselm Levskaya] came fully formed out of a mine, nurtured on a steady diet of coal dust, hardened by the eons of brutal compression deep below the surface, cut by diamonds to a chiseled finish. And then, of course, raised by a pack of carpenter wolves on the Virginian tundra." | 13:56 |
| streety | kanzure: is there a plan/consensus for which service is being used for the conference call yet? | 14:10 |
| fenn | so apparently there's no way to quote text in outlook except by manually adding > marks??? | 14:13 |
| pmetzger | outlook is very reminiscent of a real mail client. | 14:14 |
| fenn | it reminds me of hotmail after MS fucked it up | 14:14 |
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| Ian_Daniher | kanzure: just added you on skype. talk in 40min? | 14:22 |
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| kanzure | yep, skype it is | 14:26 |
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| kanzure | streety: skype | 14:26 |
| kanzure | hi pdfernhout | 14:26 |
| Alystair | so I'm making the worlds worst easteregg/bookmarklet ever | 14:27 |
| kanzure | please message me on skype to get included on the call (or else i might forget you) | 14:27 |
| kanzure | fenn: mesa electronics stuff has arrived and is with the arm now | 14:28 |
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| cluckj | kanzure are you "kanzure" | 14:29 |
| pdfernhout | hey bryan | 14:29 |
| kanzure | cluckj: yes | 14:29 |
| cluckj | k | 14:30 |
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| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ex52LYDe8 | 14:31 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUVd0skbc8 | 14:32 |
| Alystair | http://isitout.com/ez/doom.html - keep on the downlow about this | 14:34 |
| Alystair | still a WIP :) | 14:34 |
| Alystair | going to be in touch with a certain html5 canvas guru to get some crazy site destruction actually happening | 14:34 |
| Alystair | with gravity etc | 14:34 |
| Alystair | so you can shoot images off the wall as it were | 14:34 |
| dustbin | youtube did that once | 14:35 |
| dustbin | website falling apart | 14:35 |
| Alystair | yeah the gravity thing | 14:35 |
| Alystair | but not with guns, or rocket launchers | 14:36 |
| dustbin | heh | 14:36 |
| dustbin | I think they just used the html5 transforms | 14:36 |
| Alystair | it wasn't "just" | 14:36 |
| Alystair | it's a mess if you look at the code really | 14:36 |
| dustbin | no canvas involved as far as I remember | 14:36 |
| Alystair | trust me it's canvas trickery | 14:37 |
| dustbin | I've done some interesting things with canvas, but I don't think it's required for this if you don't want to use it | 14:37 |
| Alystair | well if you're a js pro that wants to help out... | 14:37 |
| dustbin | what do you need to know | 14:38 |
| Alystair | well the thing is you can't do "free" rotation of elements outside of canvas afaik? | 14:39 |
| dustbin | by free rotation you mean? | 14:39 |
| Alystair | as in instead of just changing x/y also rotate elements | 14:40 |
| dustbin | ok | 14:40 |
| Alystair | that's a canvas thing | 14:40 |
| kanzure | "Spatiotemporal control of cell signalling using a light-switchable protein interaction" | 14:40 |
| kanzure | http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7266/full/nature08446.html | 14:40 |
| Alystair | ok you know what I actually need to get going, I'll bug people in a more applicable channel about this later | 14:41 |
| dustbin | I seem to remember seeing it before with safari not sure if it's a common thing | 14:41 |
| dustbin | k | 14:41 |
| pmetzger | kanzure: do you have a nature sub? | 14:41 |
| kanzure | designfiles.org does :) | 14:42 |
| pmetzger | ah. | 14:42 |
| pmetzger | (I'm a subscriber...) | 14:42 |
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| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/papers/Spatiotemporal%20control%20of%20cell%20signalling%20using%20a%20light-switchable%20protein%20interaction.pdf | 14:45 |
| kanzure | hi Dennis_Jones | 14:45 |
| Dennis_Jones | Hey. | 14:46 |
| Dennis_Jones | Bryan, did you close the chat or did i get booted? | 14:46 |
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| streety | hi | 14:47 |
| kanzure | hi streety | 14:47 |
| Dennis_Jones | Hi streety | 14:47 |
| kanzure | Dennis_Jones: i'm not sure O_o | 14:47 |
| cluckj | o_O | 14:47 |
| kanzure | * introductions / names (No, you don't have to tell everyone who you are) | 14:48 |
| kanzure | oops | 14:48 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/papers/Spatiotemporal%20control%20of%20cell%20signalling%20using%20a%20light-switchable%20protein%20interaction.pdf | 14:48 |
| pmetzger | we can use the IRC channel for a backchannel. | 14:51 |
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| kanzure | pmetzger: | 14:52 |
| kanzure | yesa | 14:52 |
| kanzure | *yes | 14:52 |
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| pmetzger | what is to be discussed anyway? | 14:53 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: introductions; hackerspace updates; journal club (we're presenting anselm's paper) | 14:53 |
| pmetzger | I have had people attempt to call me too. | 14:53 |
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| pmetzger | (I'd say it by audio but this seems more efficient.) | 14:53 |
| cluckj | LOL | 14:54 |
| pmetzger | It is a good thing the iphone headset works with my macbook. | 14:55 |
| pmetzger | because I'd never find my dedicated headset, I use it so infrequently. | 14:55 |
| cluckj | I'm just using my built-in mic on my tablet pc | 14:55 |
| pmetzger | built in mikes are very noisy... | 14:56 |
| Dennis_Jones | Cluckj: say something so we can hear how noisy it is... | 14:56 |
| pmetzger | the quality is poor to me. | 14:57 |
| pmetzger | yours is a lot nicer. | 14:57 |
| cluckj | :P | 14:57 |
| pmetzger | I usually find mike quality is significant on these things. | 14:58 |
| randallagordon | I got dumped out of the conf...did another get made, or is my connection being silly? | 14:58 |
| cluckj | hehe | 14:58 |
| cluckj | mine has two microphones | 14:59 |
| cluckj | for what, I don't know | 14:59 |
| randallagordon | two mics, generally for noise cancellation goodness. | 14:59 |
| Dennis_Jones | What? I got kicked again... | 14:59 |
| kanzure | hmm | 15:00 |
| kanzure | Dennis_Jones: i can't figure out why you getkeep getting kicked | 15:00 |
| kanzure | randallagordon: i'm trying to get you in | 15:00 |
| randallagordon | I'm in now, thanks :) | 15:00 |
| ybit | feel free to add me on the buddy list | 15:06 |
| ybit | skype name: aisrev | 15:06 |
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| pmetzger | I suspect people will get kicked at random no matter what you do. | 15:11 |
| ybit | proposal: everyone introduce themselves, where they are from, and what they are doing. i don't know everyone, and i'm sure it's the same for quite a few people | 15:11 |
| pmetzger | Feedback on the line right now.... | 15:17 |
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| kanzure | hi ericxfresh | 15:18 |
| ericxfresh | Hi. | 15:18 |
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| kanzure | telecon is going well | 15:18 |
| ericxfresh | I think my wireless was acting funky or was kicked from skype and was unable to join again. | 15:18 |
| pmetzger | pfernhout's mike is buzzing a bunch. | 15:19 |
| ericxfresh | good to hear | 15:19 |
| ericxfresh | Do you think that you could try again to ring me in? | 15:19 |
| kanzure | done | 15:20 |
| ericxfresh | odd, I'm not receiving anything. I'll restart skype and get back to you | 15:21 |
| parolang | Fare is logged into freenode now btw. | 15:21 |
| pmetzger | cluckj's mike is very hard to understand... | 15:22 |
| cluckj | sorry :( | 15:24 |
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| randallagordon | As I don't have a mic, I can't really introduce myself on the Skype conf... I'm a geek, designer, transhumanism ethusiast and generally just sit back and listen around here. I check in every once in a while and enjoy the links that get posted! :) | 15:24 |
| cluckj | I'll just type out what I said | 15:24 |
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| cluckj | I'm an anthropologist in the science and technology studies department at RPI in Troy, NY, doing a research project on DIY Bio, mostly with the DIY Bio Boston group | 15:25 |
| cluckj | I think it's turning into my dissertation, so I will probably be sticking around for a while :) | 15:25 |
| ericxfresh | That is awesome! | 15:26 |
| ericxfresh | Dennis or Bryan could you try to invite me again. I guess I shouldn't use a netbook to skype? | 15:27 |
| pmetzger | dropping off the call for five... | 15:29 |
| Ian_Daniher | skype die for anyone else? | 15:29 |
| kanzure | paul, jonathan, perry, dennis, randall, eric, chripis, and heath | 15:29 |
| Ian_Daniher | okay, fair enough. | 15:29 |
| ybit | linkage to paper | 15:30 |
| Dennis_Jones | http://designfiles.org/papers/Spatiotemporal%20control%20of%20cell%20signalling%20using%20a%20light-switchable%20protein%20interaction.pdf | 15:30 |
| ybit | thanks | 15:30 |
| pmetzger | ooh. half the people vanished from the call... | 15:30 |
| Dennis_Jones | I think, thats at least the one i got earlier | 15:30 |
| kanzure | paul, jonathan, perry, dennis, randall, eric, chripis, and heath | 15:30 |
| ybit | chirpis == edward monson | 15:31 |
| ybit | he's heading to some biolab @ vanderbilt | 15:32 |
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| pmetzger | dropping off for another five. | 15:34 |
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| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/papers/Intranasal%20delivery%20of%20cells%20to%20the%20brain.pdf | 15:35 |
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| cluckj | thx | 15:35 |
| Dennis_Jones | Bryan, got kicked again... send me a call? | 15:35 |
| ericxfresh | Me too | 15:36 |
| fenn | jeez how many people do you have on that conference call? | 15:38 |
| ybit | ~10 in and out | 15:38 |
| cluckj | 9? | 15:38 |
| fenn | also, i will expect a full transcription in my mailbox by 6 | 15:39 |
| * fenn goes off to crash some webcam firmware some more | 15:40 | |
| cluckj | kanzure that pcr microfluidics sounds cool | 15:44 |
| cluckj | you could run it 24/7.... | 15:44 |
| ybit | if you are interested in building reprap, a little info: http://tweaklabs.org/RepRap | 15:50 |
| Dennis_Jones | thanks | 15:50 |
| Ian_Daniher | piezo | 15:50 |
| cluckj | pdfernhout, stalker :) | 15:50 |
| pdfernhout | :-) | 15:50 |
| cluckj | david hess is in my department | 15:51 |
| cluckj | I'm taking a class with him next semester | 15:51 |
| cluckj | (I think) | 15:51 |
| pdfernhout | http://www.davidjhess.org/ | 15:51 |
| cluckj | yes | 15:52 |
| cluckj | he wrote the intro to that book you sent me | 15:52 |
| ybit | what was pmetzger talking about in tips, i was afk for a min, my niece was here | 15:53 |
| pdfernhout | Some of my work: :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jobless_recovery&oldid=352787802 (rapidly being eroded by those believing in mainstream economic theology) | 15:53 |
| streety | if you snap lots of wires eventually you'll get one with a tip which is suitable for use as a probe | 15:54 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: http://heybryan.org/graphene.html | 15:55 |
| pdfernhout | Writings by Langdon Winner at RPI has also been inspirational to me (assigned reading in a course on the history of technology in the 1980s) | 15:55 |
| cluckj | :) | 15:55 |
| cluckj | he is a great professor | 15:55 |
| cluckj | I took a course on technology with him | 15:56 |
| cluckj | I work with mike fortun (my advisor), nancy campbell, and ron eglash | 15:56 |
| pdfernhout | In a different world, it would be fun to hang out a few years at RPI doing studies about society and technology. It's mostly what I have written about over the past few years (like in that Wikipedia article or elsewhere). | 15:57 |
| cluckj | it is pretty damn fun | 15:57 |
| cluckj | I'm having a blast, especially with diy bio | 15:58 |
| pdfernhout | http://www.sts.rpi.edu/pl/faculty/michael-fortun | 15:58 |
| cluckj | I also work at the children's museum in troy part-time | 15:58 |
| cluckj | yep, that's him | 15:58 |
| pdfernhout | I consulted the RPI economics home page when I was working on that article, in terms of links to heterodox economics. | 15:58 |
| cluckj | cool | 15:59 |
| cluckj | what are you up to these days? | 15:59 |
| pdfernhout | It would be fun to take the ideas in that Wikipedia article and make them academic and formal and well supported through more research (and maybe some simulations etc.) in the RPI economics department. | 15:59 |
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| cluckj | apply for grad school there :P | 15:59 |
| pdfernhout | A mix of stuff, but mostly taking care of my son while my wife works, and making some Android software (musical phrases), sadly, a paid app, but with a promise to put it under the GPL in three years. Plus I've written a lot of essays. | 16:00 |
| pdfernhout | Did the teleconference just go away? | 16:01 |
| ybit | pdfernhout: no you went bye-bye though | 16:01 |
| cluckj | how old is your son? | 16:01 |
| pdfernhout | Bryan, can you connect me back to the conference? | 16:02 |
| cluckj | cause I work here: http://www.cmost.org | 16:02 |
| pdfernhout | He's been there once a few years back. | 16:03 |
| cluckj | ah | 16:03 |
| kanzure | pdfernhout: we're closing actually. | 16:03 |
| pdfernhout | It's a great place. I liked the video weather report. | 16:03 |
| pdfernhout | OK. | 16:03 |
| cluckj | we've got lots of new stuff, about to get an exhibit about australia | 16:03 |
| pdfernhout | I'll need to check it out again then. We never saw the movie (because we were avoiding media then). But now we are doing more media. | 16:04 |
| cluckj | and I'm putting together some neat planetarium shows with Nightshade | 16:04 |
| cluckj | ah :) | 16:04 |
| cluckj | well if you let me know if/when you decide to visit, I can get you a free pass (for the kiddo) and give you a tour | 16:05 |
| cluckj | save you $5 anyway :) | 16:05 |
| pdfernhout | Wow. That's great. | 16:05 |
| pdfernhout | I don't mind the fee. But a backstage tour would be great. | 16:05 |
| cluckj | there's not much backstage, haha | 16:06 |
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| pdfernhout | We're homeschooling (for secular reasons) and I think CMOST has some hands on things for homeschoolers (vaguely recall). | 16:06 |
| cluckj | yeah, we do homeschool programs | 16:06 |
| pdfernhout | I guess there are the classrooms that you can only go in if you are part of a class. | 16:06 |
| ybit | alright guys, i'll give my comments later on tonight, going to grab some dinner right now. | 16:07 |
| pdfernhout | Like the one in the back with the animals? | 16:07 |
| cluckj | o_O | 16:07 |
| kanzure | yeah i had fun | 16:07 |
| cluckj | oh the animal room | 16:07 |
| cluckj | we moved that to a public place | 16:07 |
| kanzure | i was worried that there would be too many people | 16:07 |
| cluckj | it's much cooler now | 16:07 |
| pdfernhout | http://www.cmost.com/programs/homeschool.php | 16:07 |
| cluckj | once I get the planetarium stuff working, we should have *real* planetarium shows instead of premade dome movies | 16:07 |
| pdfernhout | One of the nice things about living where we do is we can see the Milky Way. Although light pollution from Saratoga is still a bit of an issue. | 16:08 |
| cluckj | :) | 16:08 |
| pdfernhout | I should think about those homeschool programs. My kid might like them. And they look late enough in the day to get to (so many things start so early). But it looks like no summer programs. | 16:10 |
| kanzure | maybe he can go to waldorf and become a hippie like me? | 16:10 |
| kanzure | hippie indoctrination camp | 16:10 |
| kanzure | http://austinwaldorf.org/ | 16:10 |
| cluckj | we run camps during the summer | 16:11 |
| pdfernhout | We thought about the waldorf school in Saratoga. ;-) But 45 minutes away. http://www.waldorfsaratoga.org/ | 16:11 |
| cluckj | pdfernhout I have to go out, but ttyl, I idle in here pretty much all the time now | 16:11 |
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| pdfernhout | Great. Thanks for the CMOST info. | 16:12 |
| cluckj | yup, if you have any other questions, let me know | 16:12 |
| cluckj | I've been working there for a while | 16:13 |
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| pmetzger | Waldorf! Anthroposophy! The folks who believe kids tooth development is a way to measure intellectual progress! | 16:13 |
| pdfernhout | Everything is a mixed bag. :-) | 16:14 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: well, there's my deep dark secret for the night | 16:15 |
| kanzure | they kicked me out though | 16:15 |
| kanzure | i was too "wild" | 16:15 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/graphene.html since you mentioned it | 16:15 |
| pdfernhout | The CMOST camps look great, but they are too many days (five weeks?) for a long commute for us: http://www.cmost.com/programs/summercamp.php | 16:15 |
| streety | It was good speaking with many of you in the teleconference earlier. I'm going to take off now. Hopefully catch many of you on irc again over the next few days | 16:16 |
| kanzure | :) | 16:16 |
| kanzure | it was good, yeah | 16:16 |
| pdfernhout | Thanks for arranging the teleconference, Bryan. | 16:16 |
| pdfernhout | I don't know if I will keep up with them as they seem DIY-Bio oriented though (and I'm more into clanking stuff and programming). But, they are great for DIY-Bio aspects of OM. | 16:17 |
| kanzure | i dunno, AFM seems very OM-related | 16:18 |
| kanzure | molecular manufacturing for instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqyZ9bFl_qg | 16:18 |
| pdfernhout | That's true. There certainly is ovelap. | 16:18 |
| pdfernhout | overlap. | 16:18 |
| pdfernhout | Yest, true, I remember that video from a previous time you mentioned that link. Though we are still not there yet (if we ever will be, given the statistical aspects of working with things on a small scale, where bio processes dominate). | 16:19 |
| pdfernhout | Anyway, there's lots of room for all sorts of discussions with different emphasis. And it is true that open clanking stuff (like microscopes, containers, etc.) facilitates biotech. And good biotech, like to produce plastic, facilitates clanking stuff. | 16:21 |
| pmetzger | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_probe_microscopy | 16:21 |
| pmetzger | See "Probe tips" | 16:22 |
| pmetzger | as in: | 16:22 |
| pmetzger | An alternative and much quicker method is to take a thin wire and cut it with a pair of scissors or a scalpel. Testing the tip produced via this method on a sample with a known profile will indicate whether the tip is good or not and a single sharp point is achieved roughly 50% of the time. It is not uncommon for this method to result in a tip with more than one peak; one can easily discern this upon scan due to a high level of ghost images. | 16:22 |
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| pmetzger | in the undergrad lab class I was in, it took us more like ten attempts, and that was with help from someone who reputedly understood what they were doing well. | 16:22 |
| pmetzger | but it was possible, and it was cheap. | 16:22 |
| pmetzger | you can also buy probe tips commercially. | 16:23 |
| QuantumG | first comment on that video is gold | 16:24 |
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| pmetzger | BTW, I assume all the DIY Bio types have seen/read "Molecular Biology of the Cell" by Alberts. It is the book I taught myself from. | 16:30 |
| pmetzger | Expensive but really good. | 16:31 |
| Utopiah | http://warezforum.info/ebooks-tutorials/758674-molecular-biology-cell-5th-edition-dvd.html | 16:32 |
| marainein | on discount on that site | 16:33 |
| Utopiah | ;) | 16:33 |
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| pmetzger | Very deep discount. | 16:35 |
| kanzure | yeah it's a popular read | 16:36 |
| Utopiah | (but then I let everyone use his own sense of moral/ethics/justice/whatever, just saying it's available right now) | 16:37 |
| kanzure | hm i don't seem to have a copy of the svn repository for ne-1 | 16:40 |
| kanzure | but i have a dot_subversion_config file | 16:41 |
| kanzure | fenn: you're not in #emc | 16:46 |
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| kanzure | "Please send me a list of your hot topics, any neat URLs or books/magazines/zines, products, software, newsgroups, other organizations, great people, etc. that turns you on." | 17:16 |
| kanzure | "Also send me a brief history of what you've been up to (detailed bio, resume, or CV) so I can prepare for our call to go over where we can connect and explore neat joint projects and funding opportunities." | 17:16 |
| pmetzger | who asked you that? | 17:16 |
| kanzure | someone i met at h+ summit | 17:17 |
| pmetzger | from that soi-dissant management consultant? | 17:17 |
| kanzure | soi? | 17:17 |
| kanzure | what does that mean | 17:17 |
| Utopiah | french sexyness | 17:18 |
| pmetzger | http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soi-disant | 17:18 |
| kanzure | i don't know if he was french | 17:19 |
| Utopiah | I mean the expression is french, like deja vu | 17:19 |
| kanzure | http://accelerating.org/downloads/SmartJ-2010-FutureoftheiPad.pdf | 17:19 |
| * kanzure is listening to John Smart talk | 17:20 | |
| kanzure | he's starting the first "future studies" master degree for emerging tech stuff | 17:20 |
| pmetzger | it means roughly "self proclaimed" | 17:20 |
| Utopiah | pmetzger: I also suggest latin and greek expressions once a day, always looks nice ;) | 17:20 |
| pmetzger | I'm just a sesquipedant. :) | 17:21 |
| ybit | so the point of the teleconference is to share what we've been doing and ask questions if we have any. then to discuss a paper of the week.. | 17:21 |
| pmetzger | http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sesquipedalian | 17:21 |
| kanzure | ybit: yes | 17:22 |
| kanzure | is that bad? | 17:22 |
| Utopiah | kanzure: news from NASA upcoming only conf (in SL or not) btw? | 17:22 |
| kanzure | haven't heard back from jessica | 17:22 |
| kanzure | sorry Utopiah | 17:22 |
| Utopiah | np | 17:22 |
| ybit | kanzure: no, but there's this wonderful technology that was invented in the 70s called email... :)( | 17:23 |
| ybit | :) * | 17:23 |
| ybit | i'm not quite sure what te point of voice instead of text... | 17:24 |
| ybit | the* | 17:24 |
| kanzure | yeah i'm not sure why people requested voice either | 17:24 |
| kanzure | most of the people who requested audio weren't even around | 17:24 |
| Utopiah | regarding books to buy, 2 friends launched tonight http://readerbroker.com/ (Amazon price comparisons over countries and marketplace) | 17:24 |
| ybit | yeah, i figured there would be ~30 people present | 17:25 |
| kanzure | mac messed up on timezone conversions | 17:25 |
| kanzure | and another fellow contacted me immediately after we closed the session | 17:25 |
| pmetzger | http://everytimezone.com/ | 17:26 |
| * ybit is curious why diybio is not listed on scienceforcitizens.net | 17:26 | |
| kanzure | can't i just use 'date' | 17:26 |
| kanzure | ybit: because scienceforcitizens is territorial i think | 17:26 |
| ybit | kanzure: did you get a chance to talk with darlene about anything? | 17:27 |
| kanzure | no | 17:27 |
| ybit | why would they be territorial, hrm.. | 17:27 |
| kanzure | same reason why mac is :( | 17:27 |
| kanzure | (incompetence?) | 17:27 |
| pmetzger | Date doesn't do the visualization so nicely. | 17:27 |
| kanzure | it's my answer to everything | 17:27 |
| pmetzger | the visualization in everytimezone is cool. | 17:27 |
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| ybit | who here does web design? | 17:29 |
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| ybit | y web dev | 17:29 |
| kanzure | blah i wish i knew more web designers | 17:32 |
| kanzure | i can do web dev, but i promised myself i'd never touch web design | 17:32 |
| kanzure | *never touch web design again | 17:32 |
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| kanzure | wtf is this? http://trillennium.com/ | 17:39 |
| Utopiah | seems compatible with the Hollywood IQ/Screen ratio | 17:43 |
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| kanzure | hi LilxHK | 17:46 |
| LilxHK | hi | 17:47 |
| * LilxHK going to watch s01e01 of Fringe | 17:48 | |
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| kanzure | dr. robert bishop was modeled after me | 17:50 |
| kanzure | walter bishop | 17:50 |
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| kanzure | hi elevenarms :) | 17:53 |
| elevenarms | hola kanzure | 17:54 |
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| kanzure | i think this channel has never been larger (was at 53 earlier today) | 17:58 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplusroadmap_users.dat | 18:00 |
| Utopiah | curve? | 18:00 |
| kanzure | well i'd need to plot dates with the points as well | 18:01 |
| pmetzger | kurzweil would draw an exponential curve based on that. | 18:02 |
| kanzure | ppft he'd draw an exponential curve based on your _mom_ | 18:03 |
| pmetzger | well, yes. | 18:03 |
| QuantumG | "according to this curve, your mother will be leaving 400 pairs of shoes at my house by the end of the year" | 18:04 |
| pmetzger | I loved how he was mentioning that the number of sequenced genomes was rising exponentially. He didn't bother to mention that eventually you run out of organisms to sequence, though as I tweeted during the conference, one could simply start sequencing the same individuals multiple times a day... | 18:04 |
| Utopiah | http://ow.ly/1ZxZu | 18:04 |
| QuantumG | how many organisms are there on Earth anyway? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | a few trillion biomass tons i'd guess | 18:05 |
| kanzure | actually more. nevermind. don't listen to me | 18:05 |
| kanzure | there are entire papers devoted to estimating the amount of biomass on the world | 18:05 |
| pmetzger | Freitas has estimates on his paper "Some limits to global ecophagy", aka the grey goo paper. | 18:05 |
| pmetzger | it is a cool paper. he predicts that it is technologically difficult to eat the world in less than eight to ten days. | 18:06 |
| pmetzger | http://www.rfreitas.com/Nano/Ecophagy.htm | 18:07 |
| pmetzger | of course, some of my friends have very big appetites, so who knows. | 18:07 |
| kanzure | updated: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/meetlog.txt (last update was 2010-06-07) | 18:12 |
| Utopiah | :| not the same file | 18:12 |
| Utopiah | it was 30Mo before, not 1Mo? | 18:13 |
| kanzure | no.. it has never been 30 MB | 18:13 |
| kanzure | you're thinking of irclogs.txt | 18:14 |
| Utopiah | yes, my bad I checked after, that's the processed file | 18:14 |
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| JayDugger | Orange is not your color, Bryan. http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgedvorsky/4707105075/in/photostream/ | 18:22 |
| kanzure | heh | 18:25 |
| kanzure | the other person is brian malow, "the science comedian" | 18:27 |
| eridu | if you run out of organisms to sequence you win | 18:34 |
| eridu | then you have to beat the elite four | 18:34 |
| kanzure | and watch out for red | 18:35 |
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| cluckj | hehe | 18:41 |
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| kanzure | hi Noahj | 19:03 |
| Noahj | Hey Bryan | 19:16 |
| kanzure | did you see the youtoob videos? :) | 19:16 |
| kanzure | http://current.com/technology/92489723_from-gears-to-genes-a-sea-change-in-transhumanism.htm | 19:19 |
| kanzure | http://technoccult.net/archives/2010/02/22/diy-transhumanism-on-the-cheap/ | 19:19 |
| kanzure | http://sapiensanonym.blogspot.com/ | 19:20 |
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| JayDugger | Good night, everyone. Time to commute for me. | 19:39 |
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| kanzure | stalk: Patrik Ronnqvist | 20:14 |
| cluckj | hmm | 20:21 |
| cluckj | three diy bio boston meetups =) | 20:22 |
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| kanzure | thesprouts.org uses django? http://thesprouts.org/ourstudioso#whats-up-at-your-space | 20:38 |
| kanzure | actually, i think i knew that when i read through sproutgarden.git | 20:38 |
| kanzure | does pokemon netbattle work on visualboy? | 20:40 |
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| kanzure | http://www.beyondbullets.com/2005/07/beyond_bullet_p.html interesting story | 22:42 |
| kanzure | i am tempted to do a film documentary on people who close multi million dollar deals | 22:42 |
| kanzure | some of these people are just, sick | 22:43 |
| kanzure | and ridiculously good at presentations | 22:43 |
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| klafka__ | is this book actually good | 22:45 |
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