| --- Day changed Fri Jun 25 2010 | ||
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| kanzure | http://twitter.com/search?q=%23singularityu | 03:41 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | looks like they want to revive the nematode upload project | 03:41 |
| kanzure | dan barry wants retirement homes in space | 03:44 |
| kanzure | "We will sell more one-way tickets to space than round-trip Who will buy them? The elderly and the disabled." | 03:44 |
| kanzure | "We'll collect your life insurance, launch a hospice in space, and send you as a shooting star above your funeral." | 03:44 |
| kanzure | ha ha | 03:44 |
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| kanzure | "for bonus points, we'll do it when you're in cryostasis, so we can eventually catch up to you and thaw your body" | 04:08 |
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| splicer | h+ ... it's for people who like acid | 05:28 |
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| kanzure | i wonder if disney would invest in making a theme park on the moon | 09:13 |
| pmetzger | it is unlikely to meet their ROI at the moment. | 09:24 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 09:53 |
| pmetzger | good afternoon. | 09:57 |
| fenn | i'm currently sitting next to steve rayhawk @ http://drupal.mscomp.org/orcp2010 | 10:05 |
| pmetzger | looks like a fun set of talks. | 10:08 |
| pmetzger | I'd be interested in what looks like the highest performance platform discussed for high performance computation... | 10:09 |
| Utopiah | high perf computation? | 10:09 |
| Utopiah | like meteorology? | 10:09 |
| Utopiah | http://www.top500.org/ | 10:09 |
| pmetzger | HPC = scientific computing of all sorts, including computational chemistry (which is my interest here) | 10:17 |
| kanzure | fenn: say hi to steve for me :) | 10:21 |
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| kanzure | diybio-leuven taking off? http://www.securitynewsportal.com/securitytwits/article.php?title=security4all_Actually_its_tonight_June_25th_8pm_at_the_Universum._diybio_leuven_via_at_maradydd | 10:44 |
| kanzure | diy microscopes hall of fame http://hackteria.org/?p=241 | 10:46 |
| kanzure | someone from singularityu.org (david dalrymple) mentioned to me a nematode upload project | 10:46 |
| kanzure | so i had to remind him about http://web.archive.org/web/20080520053440/http://minduploading.org/research.html | 10:46 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: were you around for that? eugen was involved in it, somehow | 10:46 |
| fenn | hee @ langton people meet siai people | 11:11 |
| fenn | why is the nematode upload page gone? | 11:13 |
| fenn | "we dont want to accidentally give off the impression of actually doing useful research" | 11:13 |
| fenn | sphinx for documentation http://sphinx.pocoo.org/ | 11:17 |
| fenn | seems like i've asked this question of "how to make good text/html/pdf documentation" and never got a good answer, sphinx might be it | 11:17 |
| fenn | also, cython is badass | 11:18 |
| kanzure | sphinx is a pretty standard python documentation tool.. | 11:18 |
| pmetzger | I wasn't around/involved in the nematode thing, no. | 11:18 |
| kanzure | gah you're just leanring about cython? | 11:18 |
| fenn | pmetzger: you should check out cython | 11:18 |
| fenn | kanzure: no, but it seems to have improved and become more mature since i last looked at it | 11:18 |
| kanzure | ah | 11:19 |
| kanzure | okay, i feel better :P | 11:19 |
| kanzure | fenn: did the langton people just totally assrape the siai people? :) | 11:19 |
| fenn | it used to just be a fork of pyrex, but now it's actually a python module instead of its own language | 11:19 |
| fenn | i dunno, they all sort of rushed out of the room.. silly me is watching the conference talk | 11:19 |
| kanzure | the nematode upload project was eugen leitl and randal a. koene (randal is now working at halycon molecular) | 11:20 |
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| fenn | a video i recorded yesterday, lee felsenstein talks about designing the osborne-1 luggable computer, and the silly business stuff around it: http://vimeo.com/12854256 | 11:23 |
| fenn | sort of reminded me of the makerbot scene | 11:23 |
| fenn | in 1981 | 11:23 |
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| kanzure | elevenarms and i found this "DARPA" computer in a case.. it was literally a box with a keyboard that flipped out | 11:24 |
| kanzure | a "luggable luggage" computer | 11:24 |
| Utopiah | rugged laptops? | 11:26 |
| kanzure | well, not the one i saw :P | 11:26 |
| kanzure | it was more like a mini-atx board in side of a brief case | 11:26 |
| kanzure | with a monitor built into the side | 11:27 |
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| mheld | hey y'all | 11:31 |
| kanzure | hi mheld | 11:31 |
| mheld | hey kanzure | 11:31 |
| kanzure | we were talking about a nematode mind uploading project | 11:31 |
| mheld | what's going on? | 11:31 |
| mheld | ooh! | 11:31 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20080520053440/http://minduploading.org/research.html | 11:31 |
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| kanzure | hi Joeconyers | 11:33 |
| kanzure | this is a secret front for a world domination task force | 11:33 |
| fenn | did anyone know that matplotlib came out of a brain electrode implant visualization project? (john hunter) | 11:33 |
| kanzure | i've tried matplotlib a few times, it's .. quirky | 11:33 |
| Joeconyers | kanzure: so I'm in the right place? | 11:34 |
| kanzure | Joeconyers: absolutely | 11:34 |
| kanzure | indoctrination part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ex52LYDe8 | 11:34 |
| kanzure | indoctrination part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUVd0skbc8 | 11:34 |
| fenn | this is just neato http://www.archive.org/details/scipy09_day1_05-Andrew_Straw | 11:40 |
| Joeconyers | kanzure: great stuff | 11:41 |
| fenn | hmm seems to be the whole talk. anyway, they're projecting images of an opengl cylinder with texture mapping on 4 walls of a box, to trick the fruit fly into staying within a small virtual cylindrical volume inside the box | 11:41 |
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| lepton | So I'm gonna be giving a talk on open hardware at Burning Man this year | 11:52 |
| kanzure | cool. | 11:52 |
| lepton | Just got off the phone with someone to get it in the event directory | 11:52 |
| lepton | I'm interested in trying to get other people to contribute, join | 11:53 |
| fenn | lol.. some student was banned from using their cluster because he used all the matlab licenses in parallel so nobody else could use matlab when his job was running | 11:54 |
| kanzure | ybit: why aren't you talking to me in here | 11:59 |
| ybit | here i be | 12:04 |
| kanzure | so, ybit contacted me today to talk about how a lot of different people behind diybio are making kit stores | 12:04 |
| ybit | so kanzure and i were talking about so many people wanting to start kit stores around diy science | 12:04 |
| kanzure | to me, it seems like a landrush | 12:04 |
| kanzure | fundamentally for anyone making a kit store, the number one importance is sales, marketing, promotion | 12:05 |
| ybit | it might be a landrush, but if it gets people involved, it might not be too terrible | 12:05 |
| ybit | i don't know, adafruit does a good job of not being shitty | 12:06 |
| kanzure | that's not what i'm seeing | 12:06 |
| kanzure | instead what i'm seeing is people going behind each other's backs to work on *their* super-awesome kit store | 12:06 |
| kanzure | jacob shiach was perhaps the first public figure to start this off | 12:06 |
| kanzure | tito did it a little bit, but everyone knows how terrible his products are | 12:06 |
| ybit | if someone wants to start a store, why is this a bad thing? | 12:06 |
| kanzure | it's not a bad thing- what i'm seeing though is their behavior | 12:07 |
| ybit | when i was talking with bobe earlier today, it seems mac has the same idea of giving people who come up with kits a chunk of the money | 12:07 |
| kanzure | i.e., promises for involving multiple people andn ot following through | 12:07 |
| kanzure | i.e. territorial behavior | 12:07 |
| kanzure | yes but that's mac's version of a store | 12:07 |
| kanzure | in that version, he wants to do a startup and put the kit makers as cofounders (for about 10 people) | 12:07 |
| ybit | i was looking @ giving 33% of a cut as well | 12:07 |
| kanzure | btw are these open hardware kits that you're talking about? | 12:08 |
| ybit | the co-op idea is awesome, but as i mentioned earlier, i don't know how i could live on that kind of income | 12:08 |
| kanzure | what income are you thinking of | 12:08 |
| ybit | with a store here, i can sell locally | 12:08 |
| kanzure | why wouldn't you be able to sell locally anyway | 12:09 |
| ybit | i'm looking into making a store to sell open science kits | 12:09 |
| kanzure | but it sounds like they aren't too "open" if there's some proprietary nugget that the inventor gets licensing rights for (33% apparently) | 12:09 |
| kanzure | *inventor gives licensing rights for | 12:10 |
| ybit | licensing is another issue, i like TAPR | 12:10 |
| kanzure | then why would the "inventor" get a percentage of all sales? | 12:11 |
| ybit | the way i figured, 33% would give the tinkerer money for their cool projects but also allow me and allow me to continue making these kits.. you have to pay your fellow workers money to work ya know | 12:11 |
| kanzure | yes but imho it doesn't sound like you've thought about this a lot | 12:11 |
| kanzure | anyone can just take an open hardware kit and go sell it elsewhere, even if they aren't the inventor | 12:11 |
| ybit | i estimated that i can only make $20k/yr and have about 4 others making the same | 12:12 |
| kanzure | so you're not going to become rich because you had the "first idea" | 12:12 |
| ybit | i'm not trying to be rich obviously good sir, $20k isn't much :) | 12:12 |
| kanzure | who cares | 12:12 |
| kanzure | $20k could be obtained through other means than licensing your kits in exchange for a percentage of their sales | 12:13 |
| ybit | what about a business being involved with the co-op? | 12:13 |
| kanzure | hm? what about it? | 12:13 |
| ybit | i'm not seeing the other means currently on how one could obtain ~$15-20k/year | 12:14 |
| kanzure | suppose this situation: you get paid a salary (or a lump sum) to work on new kits | 12:14 |
| kanzure | then, an "affiliate marketing" network is in place for commission-based incentives on kit sales | 12:15 |
| ybit | well, i think you are kind of peeved about someone overlooking the co-op, i don't want to overlook the co-op.. i came to you, i'm going to each person individually to see how we can cooperate, doing my best to make sure everyone is on good terms... | 12:16 |
| kanzure | imho the business model you've proposed to me sounds incompatible with TAPR and so on | 12:16 |
| ybit | how so? | 12:16 |
| ybit | what you mentioned above sounds exactly like what i and mac are planning | 12:16 |
| kanzure | the licensing where you get 33% of all sales for the kit via the license | 12:16 |
| kanzure | ha ha, i doubt it | 12:17 |
| kanzure | i talked with mac about it | 12:17 |
| kanzure | why is mac planning with you anyway? this should all be public | 12:17 |
| ybit | sorry, one sec while i get comfy | 12:17 |
| ybit | @ rivertown coffee shop | 12:17 |
| ybit | okay | 12:18 |
| ybit | i haven't talked with mac yet, bobe directed me to him since we both have similar efforts underway.... | 12:18 |
| ybit | guess i will have to RTFM about TAPR and why the 33% idea is incompatible | 12:18 |
| kanzure | because it's an exclusive license for them to sell the kit | 12:18 |
| kanzure | (with some contractual arrangements) | 12:19 |
| ybit | hrm | 12:19 |
| kanzure | if i may make a prediction | 12:19 |
| ybit | yes sir? | 12:19 |
| kanzure | i suspect that the majority of the community who each want to individually make their own kit store | 12:19 |
| kanzure | are really genuinely interested in selling kits | 12:19 |
| kanzure | regardless of whether or not they are open source hardware kits or not | 12:20 |
| kanzure | after all, the community this is coming from is diybio, which while has some open source roots, it primarily does not | 12:20 |
| ybit | hrm, i dunno | 12:20 |
| ybit | my entire life is dedicated to open everything | 12:20 |
| kanzure | yeah, there are a few people who want to do open source hardware kits | 12:20 |
| kanzure | but look at i.e. scitoys | 12:20 |
| ybit | brb, need some water | 12:21 |
| kanzure | so anyway, if you find out that the co-op is actually what mac wants to do, that would be great | 12:21 |
| kanzure | and we should try to channel and focus efforts together instead of doing different things | 12:21 |
| kanzure | however, i was talking with mac at hplus summit, and he was saying things like he wanted maybe up to 10 kit makers to be cofounders on a startup | 12:22 |
| kanzure | and some other things that seemed mutually inconsistent at the time that i couldn't write down (we were walking+talking) | 12:22 |
| kanzure | ybit: can you give me the list of people you're talking about? | 12:23 |
| lepton | I'm jumping in here when I should really be focused on my EMC2 bring up, but I'm thinking that selling completely build open source products is a more viable avenue than kits | 12:26 |
| kanzure | sure, that's definitely something that a kit store should do | 12:26 |
| lepton | There are often more people that want something built and working NOW, who don't have the capacity/time to build it themselves | 12:26 |
| ybit | right | 12:26 |
| ybit | i think that's a given on these kind of stores | 12:27 |
| lepton | and even if something is open, there's a learning curve to making it efficiently and well | 12:27 |
| ybit | kind of the way makerbot industries does it | 12:27 |
| lepton | yeah, that's a good example | 12:27 |
| ybit | so how can we make this work? | 12:28 |
| ybit | a few kits we are working on here, microbial fuel cell kit (seems mac is further along than we are), cheap arduino based microscope ala hackteria, stm, weather monitoring via vlf receivers | 12:30 |
| ybit | ordered some su-8 today, don't have the money currently to start making the stuff myself, but we are going to experiment with some the microfluidics stuff | 12:31 |
| kanzure | how are you going to pattern the su-8? | 12:31 |
| ybit | hehe | 12:31 |
| ybit | microsoft.xxx | 12:31 |
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| ybit | kanzure: i'm not sure yet | 12:32 |
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| lepton_ | How can systems like kickstarter fit in? | 12:33 |
| kanzure | lepton_: well, what i was doing for a while was writing an open source kickstarter | 12:33 |
| ybit | lepton_: i didn't know this | 12:33 |
| kanzure | where the projects would be git repositories, and as they get funded and go down the milestones, they turn into something that can be sold | 12:33 |
| kanzure | and then it's just like ikiwiki- anyone could just download all of the hardware projects and setup their own branded store | 12:34 |
| kanzure | (since everyone wants that) | 12:34 |
| ybit | heh | 12:34 |
| lepton_ | ybit: check out kickstarter.com | 12:34 |
| ybit | lepton_: i'm quite familiar | 12:34 |
| kanzure | i'm sure ybit knows about kickstarter | 12:34 |
| lepton_ | gotcha | 12:34 |
| lepton_ | kanzure: I think having a structure for projects having public repos is a very important thing | 12:35 |
| * kanzure nods | 12:35 | |
| ybit | yup | 12:35 |
| lepton_ | there are a lot of "open hardware" projects that don't have any data posted at all! | 12:35 |
| ybit | uhuh | 12:35 |
| lepton_ | Like the "Open CNC Center" that MFG funded | 12:35 |
| kanzure | lepton_: i've talked with mitch about that | 12:35 |
| kanzure | but didn't get anywhere | 12:35 |
| lepton_ | That's makes me sad | 12:35 |
| ybit | btw, i finally got the spikerbox schematic yesterday | 12:36 |
| ybit | was damn near impossible to find on the site :) | 12:36 |
| kanzure | paul also talked with mitch back in 2004 or something | 12:36 |
| kanzure | and also didn't get anywhere :P | 12:36 |
| ybit | but both tim and greg are cool guys | 12:36 |
| ybit | yar, it was impossible to get in touch with mitch | 12:36 |
| ybit | they seemingly still have the files though | 12:37 |
| ybit | cad files* | 12:37 |
| kanzure | it doesn't matter that much, the design isn't particularly stunning anyway | 12:37 |
| lepton_ | nah | 12:37 |
| lepton_ | We're actually gonna be working on something very similar this year >:) | 12:37 |
| lepton_ | Or we expect to | 12:37 |
| lepton_ | First half of this year was becoming half way decent CNC machinists, now we're working on becoming half way decent EMC2 users | 12:38 |
| lepton_ | once we cross that hurdle we can start doing more exciting things | 12:38 |
| lepton_ | but I digress... | 12:38 |
| ybit | somoene mentioned this in the co-op google doc: " | 12:39 |
| ybit | Third parties, like small and mid-sized businesses might join the co-op to increase their available infrastructure." | 12:39 |
| kanzure | one idea that was pitched to me was equipment rentals | 12:40 |
| kanzure | ybit: do you know how affiliate marketing works? | 12:40 |
| ybit | i'm familiar yes | 12:41 |
| kanzure | did i or.. uh | 12:41 |
| ybit | don't have exp in it though | 12:41 |
| kanzure | okay, so you get the idea of people taking 30% commissions or something per sale or whatever | 12:41 |
| ybit | yes, you told me about that | 12:41 |
| kanzure | and routing in massi-- okay. good. | 12:41 |
| kanzure | guess i forgot | 12:41 |
| ybit | er.. wait, i was speaking of spam :) | 12:41 |
| kanzure | yeah, not spam | 12:42 |
| ybit | okay, carry on then :) | 12:42 |
| kanzure | okay, so there's a number of 'affiliate marketing websites' out there | 12:42 |
| kanzure | like clickbank, hydra networks, etc.-- i counted about 150 of them in early 2010 | 12:42 |
| kanzure | people who sell products go to these networks and setup a deal, like a percentage on each sale | 12:42 |
| kanzure | then the affiliate marketers register on the site, and get a few links that they send their customers towards | 12:42 |
| kanzure | and if the customer buys through that link, the affiliate gets the commission | 12:43 |
| kanzure | typical commission stuff. even amazon has an affiliate program. | 12:43 |
| kanzure | so, one idea is to do this with the co-op | 12:43 |
| kanzure | the co-op would have a kit store that focuses on branding and obsessive ease-of-use | 12:43 |
| kanzure | and an army of salesmen who are automated through this sort of affiliate system | 12:44 |
| kanzure | money from the sales would go back to cover the manufacturing and materials cost | 12:44 |
| kanzure | and then to fund the people who are making/designing new kits and doing various other ridiculously awesome projects | 12:44 |
| kanzure | fenn and i were talking the other day about a potential funding mechanism or way of dolling out funds within the co-op | 12:44 |
| kanzure | maybe individual kit designers get a salary or per-project lump sum | 12:44 |
| kanzure | or, we start off with microgrants + something like kickstarter | 12:45 |
| lepton_ | or a cut of kit sales? | 12:45 |
| kanzure | the way the microgrants would work is someone would submit a proposal for funding, and we'd consider it and give them, say, $50 for their first project | 12:45 |
| kanzure | if they are successful, they could submit a grant asking for $100 next time, and it keeps doubling like that | 12:45 |
| kanzure | this way, we can filter people who can get stuff done | 12:46 |
| ybit | a cut of kit sales | 12:46 |
| kanzure | why | 12:46 |
| ybit | or not, i dunno.. that seems the easiest way | 12:46 |
| kanzure | if a kit developer wants a cut of kit sales, he should just be all closed source | 12:46 |
| lepton_ | The increasing tiers of grants based on previous project success is an interesting motivator of people to jump in | 12:46 |
| kanzure | lepton_: :) | 12:47 |
| lepton_ | and do good work from the start | 12:47 |
| kanzure | and it has like zero risk for me | 12:47 |
| lepton_ | I'd be pretty stoked to see a working system like that | 12:47 |
| kanzure | so what if i lose $50 on a bunch of crummy projects? at least i know those people don't perform | 12:47 |
| kanzure | $50 is like a dinner, chump change | 12:47 |
| lepton_ | Wow, you eat fancy dinners | 12:47 |
| lepton_ | :p | 12:47 |
| ybit | $50 is what i'm living on for the next month | 12:47 |
| kanzure | or i'm horrendously fat | 12:47 |
| kanzure | :P | 12:47 |
| lepton_ | I feel 'ya ybit, I'm on the start up company diet | 12:48 |
| kanzure | raman? | 12:48 |
| ybit | caloric restriction ftw | 12:48 |
| lepton_ | At least a pretty girl feed me ceral this morning :) | 12:48 |
| kanzure | fed | 12:48 |
| lepton_ | feed me cereal | 12:48 |
| ybit | the coffee shop is good about giving me cheap coffee and water | 12:48 |
| lepton_ | yeah, me no type so good | 12:48 |
| lepton_ | fed* | 12:49 |
| lepton_ | damn! | 12:49 |
| ybit | :) | 12:49 |
| bkero | c0ffee | 12:50 |
| ybit | so i want to help with the co-op, who doesn't.. i think everyone likes the idea... i'm going to start selling repraps me thinks..how does this fit in the co-op model? | 12:50 |
| kanzure | would you be building the repraps? | 12:50 |
| ybit | yes | 12:50 |
| kanzure | well, at the very least, time/salary+material for the building | 12:50 |
| lepton_ | But is it worth it to sell reraps when you could make something different and sell that? | 12:50 |
| ybit | lepton_: i estimate that i can make $120k year | 12:51 |
| lepton_ | really? | 12:51 |
| ybit | yes | 12:51 |
| ybit | that pays for five people working full-time and inventing new open kits | 12:51 |
| ybit | kits/projects | 12:51 |
| lepton_ | That'd be pretty great, and I know people are having a hard time sourcing reprap parts, but what makes you think there's that much of a market? | 12:52 |
| lepton_ | I'm just playing the skeptic :) | 12:52 |
| Utopiah | ybit: if you go for co-op biz, you might want to considerate http://www.lovemachineinc.com/2010/03/the-rewarder-a-better-kind-of-bonus-system/ model | 12:52 |
| kanzure | ybit: i don't know if a cut of some certain kit's sales would make sense in the co-op or not | 12:52 |
| kanzure | i want to hear what fenn thinks | 12:52 |
| kanzure | it's certainly a motivator for the person designing up a new kit | 12:53 |
| ybit | that's the business idea... selling repraps and using that money to fund projects | 12:53 |
| kanzure | lepton_: the weird thing is that i already have funding for the co-op microgrant rounds | 12:53 |
| kanzure | but i don't want to spend it on rent or recurring expenses like hackerspace memberships | 12:53 |
| ybit | so kanzure, fenn..how does this business model fit in with the co-op? | 12:54 |
| kanzure | which one? | 12:54 |
| kanzure | selling repraps? | 12:54 |
| ybit | yar | 12:54 |
| kanzure | i thought i just explained | 12:55 |
| lepton_ | So why not spend it on people who already have *some* resources and deal with rent and such themselves? | 12:55 |
| kanzure | but maybe not | 12:55 |
| kanzure | ybit: repraps would be sold through the co-op's salesforce, kit store, but of course also any other kit store you can get it into | 12:55 |
| kanzure | (or ebay for instance) | 12:55 |
| kanzure | sales through the co-op would have a percentage cut off for the affiliate marketer, and another percent cut off for the co-op | 12:56 |
| kanzure | and at least a materials/time calculation somewhere in there | 12:56 |
| lepton_ | kanzure: is the workflow: microgrant > viable kit > co-op sales force, marketing partners, etc | 12:56 |
| kanzure | seems to be, but i'm open to suggestions | 12:56 |
| ybit | how does the co-op get money from this exactly? the salesforce, whoever that is... gets a cut... the original project starter guy/gal gets a cut... how does the co-op suffice? | 12:56 |
| kanzure | say the final price of a kit is $100 | 12:57 |
| ybit | s/suffice/survive | 12:57 |
| kanzure | an affiliate marketer gets someone to buy it, and takes 20% ($20) | 12:57 |
| lepton_ | It almost seems like there needs to be an element just focused on building the stuff. If something gets popular you've gotta start committing machines to production for extended periods of time | 12:57 |
| kanzure | then there's $80 left | 12:57 |
| lepton_ | Seems like the 100k garages model of distrubting production can fit in there | 12:57 |
| kanzure | let's say it cost $50 to build in time/parts | 12:57 |
| kanzure | so now there's $30 left | 12:57 |
| kanzure | that $30 would go to the co-op, or some other negotiated rate i guess (?) | 12:57 |
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| ybit | the co-op needs this explained simply on the site, the site also needs a facelift, it's kind of ugly :) | 12:58 |
| kanzure | yeah, well, i seem to be unable to hire damn web designers | 12:59 |
| ybit | for some reason ugly sites don't look legit | 12:59 |
| kanzure | i should probably just post something up on 99designs.com | 12:59 |
| kanzure | mac has always been better at branding | 12:59 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure if the gnusha name should stick ;) | 12:59 |
| ybit | yar, it's a cute mascot, not sure about the name though :) | 13:00 |
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| pmetzger | http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470112697.html | 13:00 |
| ybit | reading Utopiah's and pmetzger's linked articles.. | 13:00 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: um, why did you link to that? | 13:01 |
| pmetzger | anyone starting an enterprise should go through the exercise. | 13:02 |
| pmetzger | it is a valuable reality check. | 13:02 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: i feel like you might be lacking a lot of context here | 13:02 |
| ybit | Utopiah: sounds like the model i have in mind :) | 13:02 |
| pmetzger | it doesn't matter if an organization is small or large, nonprofit or profit, etc., it is always good to formally figure out all the parameters. | 13:03 |
| ybit | pmetzger: working on the business plan good sir | 13:03 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: yes, that's true, but why are you telling us this | 13:03 |
| kanzure | $TRUE_FACT | 13:03 |
| ybit | as well as the whitepaper | 13:03 |
| pmetzger | you guys all started discussing what are essentially parts of business plans. :) | 13:03 |
| ybit | yup | 13:04 |
| kanzure | so? | 13:04 |
| pmetzger | but there were all sorts of missing assumptions, like, if you think you can make X doing Y, what are the assumptions that go into that... | 13:04 |
| ybit | yup | 13:04 |
| pmetzger | anyway, never mind. | 13:04 |
| kanzure | ybit: stop being a yes man | 13:04 |
| ybit | :) | 13:04 |
| ybit | i'll quit with the yesses and emoticons for awhile | 13:04 |
| pmetzger | I just think it is a good book for the purpose, it is what I've used in the past. | 13:04 |
| kanzure | ybit: i suspect pmetzger hasn't done a business plan for open source hardware | 13:04 |
| kanzure | ah okay | 13:04 |
| pmetzger | I've done one for open source software. | 13:04 |
| kanzure | it was a book recommendation. got it. | 13:05 |
| ybit | i was writing one for the hackerspace here, but decided that i was actually wanting it to be for a busineess to promote open science.. so it's been turned into humcie | 13:05 |
| pmetzger | well, more than one, but one got funded and launched. | 13:05 |
| ybit | pmetzger: what was it? | 13:05 |
| pmetzger | the company? dead now. "Wasabi Systems". | 13:05 |
| kanzure | mm wasabi | 13:06 |
| ybit | the software, is it still around? | 13:06 |
| pmetzger | Long ugly story. | 13:06 |
| ybit | kanzure: hehe | 13:06 |
| pmetzger | The software was NetBSD, so yes. | 13:06 |
| ybit | kanzure: i'm thinking about you in l.a. making your anime reference | 13:06 |
| kanzure | anime reference? which one did i make | 13:06 |
| ybit | kanzure: naruto iirc | 13:07 |
| ybit | while eating sushi... | 13:07 |
| kanzure | ybit: if you want to find a graphics web designer person for me, i have money to pay for something to get done for the co-op website | 13:13 |
| kanzure | but without knowing what the branding might end up as, that might not be appropriate | 13:13 |
| kanzure | i could also just steal a layout from somewhere, but i don't know why i don't like doing that | 13:13 |
| ybit | kanzure: i'm going to be afk for about 20 mins, going to pick up edward from his apartment, we are going to play with sharpie microfludic designs and we are constructing this as well: http://www.instructables.com/id/20-CNC-Machine/ | 13:14 |
| ybit | i'll need to think about this today, i might be a decent designer as it turns out :\ | 13:14 |
| ybit | but i bet we can find someone better than myself | 13:14 |
| ybit | if you are willing to spend money, there are lots of great services out there for this kind of stuff | 13:15 |
| ybit | the handout we give during the art events: http://ybit.ath.cx/images/tl-handout-page1.png | 13:15 |
| ybit | http://ybit.ath.cx/images/tl-handout-page2.png | 13:15 |
| lepton_ | Seems like Drupal could be a good infrastructure for the website, and there's so so so much already done with it graphically | 13:15 |
| ybit | okay, bbl | 13:15 |
| kanzure | lepton_: i was writing the website in python with cherrypy for a while actually | 13:16 |
| kanzure | the kickstarter/ikiwiki/github/gitorious combothing | 13:16 |
| lepton_ | How'd that go? | 13:16 |
| kanzure | i coded myself into a hole and realized cherrypy might not be ideal :) | 13:16 |
| kanzure | i previously did django work, and i'm back to using django more regularly | 13:16 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure drupal would be a good idea | 13:17 |
| kanzure | well | 13:17 |
| kanzure | the original reason why i was doing something inhouse was because the skdb package format for hardware was this weird mix between yaml and python | 13:18 |
| kanzure | so if the website is in python too, you could just literally "import" the python module that represents the hardware package | 13:18 |
| kanzure | and then use that to generate particular pages, screenshots, whatever | 13:18 |
| kanzure | 3D models, etc. | 13:18 |
| kanzure | but having python files in each package is probably a terrible architectural idea | 13:18 |
| kanzure | the reason why we did that at first was so that we could write python functions to compute things like the strength of a screw | 13:19 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/packages/screw/ | 13:19 |
| kanzure | see metadata.yaml and screw.py | 13:19 |
| kanzure | i suppose a php module for drupal could be added to read the metadata.yaml stuff | 13:20 |
| lepton_ | You can always run python seperately on the server | 13:21 |
| lepton_ | or make a drupal skdb module that interfaces with python | 13:21 |
| lepton_ | but I'm not a web developer at all | 13:21 |
| lepton_ | so I don't really know what I'm talking about :) | 13:21 |
| kanzure | i am. i started off as a web developer. | 13:21 |
| lepton_ | I started off as a mechanical engineer | 13:23 |
| kanzure | how old were you | 13:23 |
| lepton_ | were? | 13:23 |
| kanzure | uh | 13:23 |
| lepton_ | when do you mean? | 13:23 |
| kanzure | i was doing web dev stuff when i was like 11 and 12 | 13:23 |
| kanzure | that's what i mean by started off :P | 13:23 |
| lepton_ | Ah, I think I made a star trek themed web page when I was 10 or so | 13:23 |
| lepton_ | I got really into 3d modeling around then | 13:24 |
| lepton_ | did some visual basic and such to make RPGs | 13:24 |
| kanzure | yeah, i did lots of MMORPGs.. one was in visual basic :( | 13:24 |
| fenn | kanzure: steve waves back | 13:24 |
| kanzure | another was in C++ though | 13:24 |
| kanzure | fenn: the wavelag is quite high :) | 13:24 |
| lepton_ | got into cars when I was in highschool, that lead to mechanical engineering in college. Then I realized that cars aren't really all that interesting and got into power electronics and controls | 13:24 |
| kanzure | heh | 13:24 |
| lepton_ | and then I got a job at a start up, it folded, so I got a CNC and started my own | 13:25 |
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| lepton_ | and here I am | 13:25 |
| lepton_ | blabbering on IRC when I should be wiring up a 3 phase contactor | 13:25 |
| kanzure | hi victor_ | 13:26 |
| fenn | the message got stuck in a fenn-buffer | 13:26 |
| kanzure | those fenn buffers are always terrible | 13:26 |
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| fenn | i agree | 13:26 |
| Yocttar | hey =) | 13:26 |
| ybit | kanzure: cherrpy isn't ideal? oh noes! why is that? | 13:35 |
| kanzure | ybit: http://designfiles.org/skdb/web/web.py i think it just grew out of control | 13:36 |
| kanzure | django is more easy to maintain | 13:36 |
| kanzure | cherrypy is great for very quick prototypes | 13:36 |
| ybit | [09:17:29] <kanzure> fenn: the wavelag is quite high :) | 13:39 |
| ybit | ^ made me laugh | 13:39 |
| fenn | hm backlogs | 13:39 |
| ybit | fenn: yar, we were talking about the co-op and open science startups | 13:39 |
| fenn | i think people have the wrong idea thinking about it as "startups" | 13:43 |
| ybit | fenn: it ==? | 13:44 |
| fenn | "startup" typically implies you have some VC funding. there simply isn't enough of a market for a vc to get interested | 13:44 |
| ybit | oh | 13:44 |
| fenn | it == open hardware science kits | 13:44 |
| kanzure | fenn: they probably want to call it a startup because they are thinking in terms of "their slice of the pie" | 13:45 |
| kanzure | backyard brains is apparently a 'startup' (or so tim says) | 13:45 |
| kanzure | and same with livly.org (which did get some VC) | 13:45 |
| ybit | if you're making money on a routine basis and it's paying for people to work together and continue this cycle, it's a business... i've always considered a startup to be a business starting.. | 13:47 |
| ybit | fenn: apparently bobe is a fan of the quantified self group there | 13:47 |
| kanzure | ybit: a startup is usually something involving VC funding | 13:48 |
| ybit | wikipedia defines it as "a recently formed company" and wikipedia is never wrong ;) | 13:49 |
| Yocttar | pacific bio is a start up | 13:50 |
| Yocttar | .. | 13:50 |
| fenn | kanzure: but there's not really much of a pie is my point | 13:54 |
| fenn | 0/5 is still 0 | 13:55 |
| fenn | and 0 won't grow to >0 unless there's something new happening, like (real) open source hardware | 13:55 |
| lepton_ | I'm with ybit in my take on the term "startup" as simply a buisness that is beginning | 13:56 |
| lepton_ | VC investment isn't necessary for a startup to exist | 13:57 |
| lepton_ | There are plenty of startups around here with Federal Grants, Angel Investors (not VC), or self funded stuff like us | 13:57 |
| kanzure | fenn: apparently there's enough of a pie for 400+ makerbot orders, and $7k+ in donations to OpenPCR, $10k+ to makerbeam, .. | 13:59 |
| kanzure | and these are just donations | 13:59 |
| kanzure | well, not the makerbot stuff | 14:00 |
| bkero | Damn | 14:02 |
| fenn | author of mayavi speaking now | 14:02 |
| fenn | not about mayavi, about python in science and engineering in india.. | 14:03 |
| kanzure | interesting people speaking there, fenn | 14:04 |
| kanzure | i wonder how many of these people will be at scipy2010 | 14:04 |
| lepton_ | I wish I could come :/ | 14:06 |
| lepton_ | We need an open source jet | 14:06 |
| lepton_ | pack | 14:06 |
| * fenn mumbles something about a telepresence rig | 14:08 | |
| fenn | http://fossee.in "free open source science + engineering in india" | 14:13 |
| fenn | education* | 14:14 |
| kanzure | prosthetic paws http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100625/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_bionic_cat | 14:16 |
| fenn | i see possibility for a demotivational poster | 14:17 |
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| fenn | everybody here pronounces "LaTeX" as "latek" | 14:23 |
| fenn | this could be useful, a quick intro to how to do things the hacker way http://fossee.in/review | 14:24 |
| cluckj | mmm that is some good yogurt | 14:32 |
| fenn | $ apt-get install sagemath | 14:55 |
| fenn | Need to get 313MB of archives. | 14:55 |
| fenn | 129 newly installed, 878MB of additional disk space will be used. | 14:55 |
| fenn | ah well at least there's fat pipes here | 14:59 |
| bkero | 313MB = fat pipez? | 15:01 |
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| jrayhawk | That is how LaTeX is pronounced, yes | 15:11 |
| fenn | well if you dont want to download it you can just use http://sagenb.org | 15:16 |
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| fenn | heh, sage calculates (10^6)! in 0.7 seconds | 15:20 |
| fenn | sage can give you a list of assembly instructions from a math expression :0 | 15:26 |
| bkero | jrayhawk: 'laytech' is how LaTeX is pronounced. | 15:28 |
| fenn | it looks like an X, not a chi | 15:29 |
| fenn | all right, this is just ridiculous http://sagemath.org/doc/reference/ | 15:32 |
| fenn | >4000 pages | 15:33 |
| pmetzger | knuth says, at the start of the TeXbook "if you pronounce it correctly, your terminal will become slightly moist" | 15:33 |
| bkero | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95849 | 15:37 |
| jrayhawk | English doesn't have an equivalent to the sound that's supposed to be made, but "k" is definitely closer than "ch" | 15:42 |
| jrayhawk | "The voiceless velar fricative /x/ is dialectal, occurring largely in Scottish English. In other dialects, words with these sounds are pronounced with /k/." | 15:43 |
| jrayhawk | 'loch' being the classical example. | 15:44 |
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| jrayhawk | The thought of hocking something up while telling someone about typesetting sounds fun, though, so I think I'll try for the Scottish version from now on. | 15:46 |
| jrayhawk | The "La" portion is a matter of taste since there's nothing canonical to work from. | 15:49 |
| fenn | wow this is so cool http://sagenb.org/home/fenn/0/ | 16:00 |
| fenn | sorry, apparently i have to publish it first http://sagenb.org/home/pub/2182/ | 16:01 |
| fenn | blah. well if it doesn't work, i just copypasted from here http://wiki.sagemath.org/interact/dynsys | 16:04 |
| fenn | dunno why they don't have real live demos of @interact | 16:04 |
| kanzure | is this an online mathematica-like notebook? i am not bothering to click (yet) | 16:04 |
| AJollyLife | woo, alcor signup complete, I have my shiny new necklace/wristband :) | 16:05 |
| kanzure | :) | 16:05 |
| kanzure | now don't die | 16:05 |
| AJollyLife | dont die is the primary goal, cryonics is just the backup plan | 16:05 |
| AJollyLife | i'm going to have to shorten this wristband though, its too big for my wrist | 16:07 |
| fenn | kanzure: yeah, with sliders and pulldowns that automatically get generated and plots that get updated | 16:15 |
| fenn | and java3d visualizations of surfaces | 16:15 |
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| kanzure | fenn: sympy has something like that brewing, btw | 16:40 |
| kanzure | it's a javascript/ajax/django+sympy demo at the moment | 16:40 |
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| fenn | django? :\ | 17:07 |
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| ybit | hrm | 17:23 |
| ybit | fail | 17:24 |
| ybit | the water did nothing when we placed it in between the slides | 17:24 |
| ybit | not sure why either | 17:24 |
| ybit | pirahna might help | 17:25 |
| pmetzger | pirahna bath!? | 17:34 |
| pmetzger | (Ancient adage: Do Not Fuck With Pirhana Bath, unless you have serious safety equipment.) | 17:37 |
| pmetzger | (see, for example, the 4th message down in this archive: http://yarchive.net/chem/piranha_solution.html ) | 17:43 |
| kanzure | ybit: how about RainX instead | 17:54 |
| ybit | that works | 17:54 |
| kanzure | does it? | 17:54 |
| ybit | thanks for the suggestion | 17:54 |
| ybit | dunno, think i have some @ the house though | 17:55 |
| kanzure | cool. | 17:55 |
| pmetzger | I know some folks who sometimes rinse the surface of their glassware with HF when they have trouble with it. That's almost as nutty, perhaps nuttier, than H2SO4+H2O2... | 17:56 |
| pmetzger | I'm glad I'm not regularly in a wet lab these days, though I suppose I may have to be in one again someday. | 17:56 |
| kanzure | ybit: also, there's not really going to be any spontaneous liquid propulsion | 17:57 |
| ybit | pcr via paper based microfluidics? | 18:00 |
| ybit | ideas? | 18:00 |
| ybit | guess it's time to RTFM and figure it out | 18:02 |
| pmetzger | what are you trying to do? (just curious, I likely have no ideas.) | 18:02 |
| fenn | way up here on the internet high ground... so i took advantage of the 3MB/s upload http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNYdmKLVyyY | 18:04 |
| ybit | i don't know, 90C might be too hot for the transparent film... | 18:05 |
| ybit | pmetzger: i'm just contemplating what to do when the su-8 makes it here | 18:07 |
| pmetzger | su-8? | 18:08 |
| * pmetzger possesses no context at all... | 18:08 | |
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| kanzure | why'd you buy su-8 if you don't know what to do with it? | 18:10 |
| kanzure | it's not exactly a toy :P | 18:10 |
| kanzure | oh well | 18:11 |
| kanzure | i'm off to visit the mores | 18:11 |
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| ybit | well, i'm reconstructing some of the stuff from whitesides papers, but i'm curious how difficult it might be to do pcr or if it's even possible | 18:12 |
| pmetzger | su-8 photoresist? | 18:15 |
| ybit | pmetzger: yes | 18:27 |
| ybit | interesting idea, http://designfiles.org/papers/unsorted/Molecular%20Motors%20Meet%20Microfluidic%20Systems.pdf | 18:27 |
| pmetzger | http://nobodyscores.loosenutstudio.com/index.php?id=556 | 18:33 |
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| ybit | heh, i like metzer's link :) | 21:58 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 22:18 |
| kanzure | hm i seem to have acquired the entire extropian mailing list archives | 22:54 |
| JayDugger | Really? | 22:54 |
| JayDugger | How far back? | 22:54 |
| JayDugger | Specifically, what do you have from the early 1990s? | 22:55 |
| kanzure | 1993 | 22:55 |
| JayDugger | Neat. | 22:56 |
| JayDugger | May I have a copy, if convenient for you? | 22:56 |
| kanzure | hm also 1991 | 22:57 |
| kanzure | i don't know if i was supposed to get this in the first place | 22:57 |
| JayDugger | Ah... | 22:57 |
| JayDugger | While I'd like to have copies of emails from that era, if inconvenient. No worries. :) | 22:57 |
| kanzure | heh it was hosted on gnu.ai.mit.edu | 22:58 |
| JayDugger | Oh, the email list? | 23:03 |
| kanzure | cool i've never had files on my system from 1991 | 23:05 |
| JayDugger | Heh. Don't you have a copy of any works of literature? | 23:06 |
| JayDugger | Shakespeare's plays don't have mtimes, but their creation times stretch pretty far back. :) | 23:06 |
| JayDugger | 1991 < Shakespeare < The Illiad < Gilgamesh | 23:07 |
| kanzure | isn't that pre-unix time? | 23:10 |
| JayDugger | History began before Unix. | 23:10 |
| kanzure | yes but not according to ext3 timestamps | 23:11 |
| JayDugger | Yes, yes: $0.02 for the off-topic jar and the same again for heresy. | 23:11 |
| kanzure | *valid ext3 timestamps | 23:11 |
| JayDugger | brb | 23:12 |
| kanzure | heh i love this stuff | 23:14 |
| kanzure | "As an immortalist I want to live forever. Not just for a thousand or a googolplex of years but forever. It is the almost universal opinion of scientists and philosophers that the universe we currently live in will become uninhabitable with the passage of time, and this is accepted at face value by many people." | 23:15 |
| kanzure | "Such people can dismiss the idea of personal immortality because they see it as incompatible with a universe in which life is an ephemeral phase. This article will expose the total falsity of this mindset, by the simple expedient of applying a modicum of logic to this situation." | 23:15 |
| AJollyLife | kanzure: i just want to make death optional | 23:17 |
| QuantumG | kanzure: does it go on? | 23:17 |
| kanzure | heh they cite illya prigogine | 23:17 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: yeah, for a few more pages | 23:17 |
| QuantumG | does it have a point? | 23:17 |
| kanzure | old school .txt zines | 23:17 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: i don't think so O_o | 23:17 |
| QuantumG | hehe | 23:17 |
| kanzure | heh the next article is one on gradient descent algorithms | 23:18 |
| kanzure | "The question is how to find the steepest slope in our multi-dimensional space. Looking everywhere in the space would take an impossibly long time. Fortunately, it has been mathematically proven that a more general version of the perceptron-learning rule (which is also known as the delta rule) corresponds to gradient descent." | 23:18 |
| kanzure | "(For a formal proof, see Chapter 8 of Rumelhart and McClelland's Parallell Distributed Processing, MIT Press, 1988). As described in my last article, the delta rule says the following: See what the output is for the network with a particular set of inputs and weights. Take the difference ("delta") between this output and the desired output, and multiply each weight by that difference." | 23:18 |
| kanzure | `ECOCALYPSE - (from ecological and apocalypse) n. A projected ecological catastrophe which would destroy all life on Earth. [Mark Plus; August 1991]` | 23:20 |
| kanzure | "CEREBROSTHESIS - (from cerebral and prosthesis) n. An electronic device interfaced with the brain to overcome a neurological deficiency, such as normal human intelligence. (Cf. neuroprosthesis - see Extropy #7). [Mark Plus; August 1991]" | 23:21 |
| QuantumG | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_PrQoLhf6Q | 23:22 |
| kanzure | hm 'smart drugs' have been in the popular press/news/media since 91? | 23:22 |
| kanzure | damn, time to deliver | 23:23 |
| kanzure | "Chaum's approach to the protection of privacy can be thought of as having three layers." | 23:25 |
| kanzure | "The first layer is public-key cryptography, which protects the privacy of individual messages." | 23:25 |
| kanzure | "The second layer is anonymous messaging, which allows people to communicate via electronic mail ("email") without revealing their true identities." | 23:25 |
| kanzure | ELECTRONIC MAIL! | 23:25 |
| QuantumG | OMG! | 23:26 |
| kanzure | hrm what were the "co-enzyme Q10 experiments"? | 23:27 |
| kanzure | huh: "Apart from transforming ourselves in order to keep up, we would-be immortals will find self-transformation necessary for a fulfilling, meaningful life." odd way to argue for it | 23:29 |
| QuantumG | translation: self-transformation is awesome baby. | 23:30 |
| kanzure | " In the 21st Century, the depth and significance of self-transformation and augmentation will far exceed our current experience. Within a decade biologists will have decoded the human genetic program, and we will then accelerate our ability to understand and correct genetically-related physical (and psychological and intellectual) deficits, and to enhance normal abilities to transhuman levels." | 23:31 |
| kanzure | "Today's gene therapy is a magnificent achievement, but will seem minor once nanomedicine is able to alter any of the DNA of a developed, adult human. Each of us can then choose to alter mildly or massively our physical constitution. We can boost our immune systems, alter our facial features, become taller or shorter, stronger or more delicate, and sharpen our senses." | 23:31 |
| kanzure | you know, a lot of this is pretty general | 23:31 |
| kanzure | but at least it's written down somewhere :/ | 23:32 |
| kanzure | wut? "If the changes are positive changes, these new peaks in the evolutionary landscape will be transhuman." | 23:32 |
| QuantumG | is "transhuman" just a less politically offense way of saying "superhuman"? | 23:33 |
| kanzure | in some cases yes | 23:36 |
| kanzure | an example of where it is not 'superhuman' is where clearly something seems nonhuman i guess | 23:36 |
| kanzure | but this is just wordplay | 23:36 |
| QuantumG | but the better-than-human aspect seems to be fixed | 23:37 |
| kanzure | "The appearance, in 1993, of the first generation of personal digital assistants (PDAs) heralds an era of increasingly portable personal computing power and communications flexibility. Soon you will be able to contact most people, and access remote databases, no matter where you happen to be." GASP | 23:37 |
| kanzure | "Software agents and 'knowbots' will help us to gather the information that interests us, relieving us of tedious work hunting down and managing information." GASP | 23:38 |
| QuantumG | for example, if I suggested limiting the intelligence would make people happier and suggested some technology to do that (haha youtube) you wouldn't call that transhuman. | 23:38 |
| kanzure | i'd call it people programming :P | 23:38 |
| kanzure | "Increasingly, those of us desiring bodies beyond those evolved by natural processes, will engage in a process of what I call transbiomorphosis - the engineering of improved bodies by intervening in biological processes, and by incrementally replacing our biological forms with synthetic life-sustaining bodies." | 23:40 |
| kanzure | it's funny how a lot of this feels like preachy stuff | 23:40 |
| kanzure | but then turns out to be a prediction of something that the author had no involvement in making a reality :/ | 23:40 |
| kanzure | " The 1990s have seen the beginning of gene therapy; we can expect genetic engineering to progress from restoring defective systems (today's medical paradigm) to pushing back natural limits (tomorrow's medical paradigm)" | 23:41 |
| kanzure | some of these past set of quotes were from an article called "technological self-transformation: expanding personal extropy" from extropy #10 | 23:44 |
| kanzure | i wonder why the term 'morphological freedom' never caught on | 23:45 |
| JayDugger | Too many syllables, I suspect. | 23:46 |
| JayDugger | However--I definitely have a tin ear for euphonious phrasing. | 23:46 |
| kanzure | hm there was an extropians-essay mailing list | 23:49 |
| kanzure | when did piracetam and the other *acetams show up on the scene? | 23:51 |
| kanzure | lucidril, hydergine too while you're at it | 23:51 |
| AJollyLife | hm, theyve been around for at least 5 years, but thats just cause I started using them then | 23:53 |
| kanzure | fenn: what is bricolabs and the bricophone? | 23:58 |
| kanzure | "The Extropian mailing list is brought to you by the Extropy Institute, through hardware, generously provided, by the Free Software Foundation - neither is responsible for its content." | 23:59 |
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