| --- Log opened Fri Jul 09 00:00:17 2010 | ||
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| cluckj | kanzure well, I have an evil twin | 03:58 |
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| kanzure | markus schmidt is up on the stream at the moment | 06:24 |
| kanzure | http://www.tvworldwide.com/events/bioethics/100708/globe_show/default_go.cfm?live=1&type=flv | 06:25 |
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| kanzure | "gutenberg of biology" >_> | 06:26 |
| kanzure | "german ethics council" "ethics council of the german parliament" | 06:30 |
| ybit | my ass hurts | 06:33 |
| ybit | maybe i should sleep | 06:34 |
| * ybit creates more noise in the irc room | 06:34 | |
| ybit | noise! eek! | 06:34 |
| kanzure | cool second time human enhancement has been brought up | 06:34 |
| ybit | going on ~30 hours of no sleep, wondering if this will be broadcasts @ some other point, maybe on cpsan's site? | 06:36 |
| kanzure | synbiosafe.eu had a documentary film? | 06:36 |
| ybit | http://synbiosafe.eu/ for you clickers | 06:36 |
| ybit | kanzure: hrm, http://www.synbiosafe.eu/DVD/Trailer.html | 06:37 |
| kanzure | http://www.bio-fiction.com/ | 06:40 |
| ybit | yar | 06:40 |
| ybit | yay, no slides, time to rest the eyes | 06:42 |
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| ybit | i like this guy :) | 06:53 |
| kanzure | did you watch yesterday? | 06:54 |
| ybit | nope | 06:54 |
| kanzure | buchanan's talk is worth watching | 06:54 |
| uniqanomaly | yeah, fuck religion | 06:54 |
| kanzure | uh | 06:54 |
| ybit | he's not saying this :P | 06:55 |
| kanzure | uniqanomaly: i don't feel that your opinion on fucking theology is healthy | 06:55 |
| ybit | do they have an archive of the talks? | 06:55 |
| kanzure | ybit: actually, yes | 06:55 |
| uniqanomaly | theology is *fucking* interpretation, not using religion to guide your life | 06:55 |
| kanzure | uniqanomaly: there are some very thoughtful theologians that are not completely crazy | 06:56 |
| uniqanomaly | perhaps, in oposite to stupid fucking fanatics believers who cannot think by themselves | 06:56 |
| uniqanomaly | well, they just cant | 06:57 |
| kanzure | can you go away? i don't know if you've ever said anything insightful in here | 06:57 |
| uniqanomaly | ;-] | 06:57 |
| uniqanomaly | please don't look at me, I'm not worth it | 06:58 |
| kanzure | wtf? | 06:58 |
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| kanzure | the transcriber sucks again | 06:59 |
| uniqanomaly | ahahahah | 07:00 |
| kanzure | ybit: are you watching the stream? | 07:00 |
| kanzure | ybit: i just screwed something up.. can you copy and paste the entire transcript when it's done? | 07:00 |
| ybit | hrm, i can try | 07:00 |
| kanzure | hm http://www.streamtext.net/text.aspx?event=100708_bioethics&chat=false&control=false&header=false&footer=false&title=false&fs=12&bgc=333333&ff=Verdana&content-style=color:white | 07:01 |
| kanzure | cool you can set chat=true | 07:01 |
| ybit | is anyone else chatting? :) | 07:03 |
| ybit | david who? | 07:05 |
| ybit | David Rejeski | 07:05 |
| kanzure | do you have all of the text from the previous speakers? | 07:06 |
| ybit | i saw some of your stuff in email | 07:06 |
| ybit | nothing here though: http://www.bioethics.gov/meetings/transcripts/ | 07:06 |
| kanzure | um | 07:06 |
| kanzure | that's not what i'm asking | 07:06 |
| kanzure | on the live stream page, there's a stream of text | 07:06 |
| ybit | right | 07:06 |
| kanzure | i'm asking you to copy and paste that | 07:06 |
| kanzure | into, say, an email | 07:06 |
| ybit | oh, i was waiting until they ended | 07:07 |
| kanzure | k | 07:07 |
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| kanzure | interdigitate? | 07:12 |
| kanzure | "interdigitation - An interlinking that resembles the fingers of two hands being locked together" i guess | 07:12 |
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| ybit-grr | as i was saying before losing cnxn, kanzure, i sent you the log that i had since i figured you are now logging | 07:26 |
| ybit-grr | heather lady? | 07:27 |
| ybit-grr | kanzure: hope you're logging these people's names :) | 07:27 |
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| kanzure | diybio-nyc update http://codexlib.blogspot.com/2010/07/problem-of-modern-web-centric-age.html | 07:44 |
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| ybit-grr | go you server for getting back on your feet | 08:00 |
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| ybit | http://www.streamtext.net/text.aspx?event=100708_bioethics&chat=true&control=true&header=true&footer=true&title=true&fs=12&bgc=333333&ff=Delicious&content-style=color:white | 08:24 |
| ybit | chat=true does nothing | 08:24 |
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| kanzure | ybit: it makes a chat room for me :) | 09:24 |
| kanzure | okay, emailed out the day-two transcript | 09:33 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/tree/browse_frm/thread/08b5da86b61a8154/c383a5b14adea1a3?rnum=1&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fdiybio%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F8b5da86b61a8154%3F#doc_8011b22bc6ee0501 | 09:37 |
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| kanzure | "it is possible to push a human's visible spectrum into the IR range, with a long treatment of Vitamin A (http://www.edkeyes.org/blog/050825.html)" | 12:57 |
| kanzure | http://www.edkeyes.org/blog/050825.html | 12:58 |
| kanzure | "No behavioral studies were done, but they did extract the retinas and perform some spectral analysis, with the result that there was indeed some alteration of the photopigments, specifically the addition of a second form with sensitivity shifted redward by about 20nm." | 12:58 |
| kanzure | http://vm.uconn.edu/~lundquis/links.html#sensation | 13:00 |
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| cluckj | cool | 13:08 |
| cluckj | time to get some vitamin a | 13:08 |
| kanzure | Sekuler, R., and Blake, R. (1994). Perception (3rd ed.). Springfield, Ill.: Thomas. pg 62-63 | 13:13 |
| kanzure | Rubin, M. L., and Walls, G. L. (1969). Fundamentals of visual science. Springfield, Ill.: Thomas. | 13:13 |
| kanzure | "The following story dramatizes how photopigments determine what one can see. During World War II, the United States Navy wanted its sailors to be able to see infrared signal lights that would be invisible to the enemy. Normally, it is impossible to see infrared radiation because, as pointed out earlier, the wavelengths are too long for human photopigments. In order for humans to see infrared, the spectral sensitivity of some human photopigme | 13:14 |
| kanzure | " Vision scientists knew that retinal, the derivative of vitamin A, was part of every photopigment molecule and that various forms of vitamin A existed. If the retina could be encouraged to use some alternative form of vitamin A in its manufacture of photopigments, the spectral sensitivity of those photopigments would be abnormal, perhaps extending into infrared radiation. Human volunteers were fed diets rich in an alternative form of vitamin | 13:14 |
| kanzure | "Over several months, the volunteers' vision changed, giving them greater sensitivity to light of longer wavelengths." | 13:14 |
| kanzure | "Though the experiment seemed to be working, it was aborted. The development of the "snooperscope," an electronic device for seeing infrared radiation, made continuation of the experiment unnecessary (Rubin and Walls, 1969). Still, the experiment demonstrates that photopigments select what one can see; changing those photopigments would change one's vision." | 13:15 |
| cluckj | hehe | 13:16 |
| kanzure | "snooperscope" really? that's the best name they could come up with? | 13:16 |
| cluckj | still a sweet experiment | 13:17 |
| cluckj | I wanna augment my vision! | 13:17 |
| kanzure | cluckj: have you seen http://designfiles.org/papers/Emergence%20of%20novel%20color%20vision%20in%20mice%20engineered%20to%20express%20a%20human%20cone%20photopigment.pdf | 13:18 |
| kanzure | basically they spliced in a human cone photopigment | 13:18 |
| kanzure | and the mice could see colors | 13:18 |
| cluckj | haha | 13:19 |
| cluckj | yeah, I saw that last year | 13:20 |
| cluckj | pretty cool | 13:20 |
| cluckj | there's been some success with genetically-modified viruses injected into the eye | 13:20 |
| cluckj | I bet that soon we could get some sweet photopigments spliced in... | 13:20 |
| kanzure | http://amasci.com/amateur/irgoggl.html | 13:21 |
| cluckj | that's also cool | 13:22 |
| kanzure | http://radar.oreilly.com/2010/07/hardware-hacking-heaven-at-osc.html | 13:27 |
| kanzure | interesting.. there's no mention of open source hardware licensing issues :/ | 13:27 |
| kanzure | man, it's weird how i care about that | 13:27 |
| kanzure | i guess i don't want it to fuck anyone's life up | 13:27 |
| kanzure | http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2010/public/schedule/topic/Hardware | 13:28 |
| kanzure | oh i guess it's mostly software layer stuff for hardware platforms | 13:29 |
| kanzure | http://openhardwaresummit.com/ | 13:42 |
| kanzure | lovely.. the deadline was yesterday | 13:42 |
| kanzure | and nobody mentioned it in the blogs | 13:47 |
| kanzure | or anywhere on the net | 13:48 |
| kanzure | On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Alicia Gibb <alicia.gibb@buglabs.net> wrote: | 14:06 |
| kanzure | > Holy cats! How did find out? Lol, we actually haven't officially opened it | 14:06 |
| kanzure | > up yet :) We're planning on announcing it next week. So you have time! | 14:06 |
| kanzure | but.. then why was the deadline yesterday? | 14:07 |
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| kanzure | bad link though- it's actually http://openhardwaresummit.org/ | 14:12 |
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| AJollyLife | kanzure: thanks for the link i passed it on to a friend and shes super interested | 14:36 |
| kanzure | which link :P | 14:38 |
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| ENKI-][ | http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1992/03/02/1992_03_02_036_TNY_CARDS_000362534?currentPage=all#ixzz0tCYi089K | 14:58 |
| ENKI-][ | it occurs to me that while the LINF spec for 5g computers is bullshit, it should be possible to not only create a spec for speed of logical inference measurement that is measurable, but one that is more or less computable | 15:00 |
| ENKI-][ | because for a well-defined n and a well-defined big-o expected case for logical inferences you can determine the LINF rate for anything with a defined FLOP rate | 15:02 |
| ENKI-][ | unfortunately, even high-LINF parallel systems are kind of useless. but, i'm a scruffy | 15:03 |
| kanzure | http://www.dragonjar.org/biohacking-conceptos-basicos.xhtml | 15:34 |
| kanzure | 15:28:05 omg/user: hey bryan how hard would it be to design a platform of actuated variable-length variable-compliance mechanical struts with damage-tolerant power and communications buses made of cheaply mass-producible interchangeable units (user) | 15:34 |
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| fenn | variable compliance seems hard | 15:42 |
| fenn | also, define cheap | 15:42 |
| fenn | damage-tolerant communication is fairly easy, just use ethernet | 15:43 |
| kanzure | uh i guess you could talk to him in the chat room he's in | 15:46 |
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| fenn | this kinda takes the fun/mystery out of pi: 4 * (1/1 - 1/3 + 1/5 - 1/7 + 1/9 - ...) | 16:27 |
| ENKI-][ | 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55? | 16:31 |
| jrayhawk | that's taking the fun/mystery out of spirals | 16:32 |
| jrayhawk | different thing | 16:32 |
| fenn | how did i manage to make it through school without learning that series expansion for pi? | 16:36 |
| fenn | How much pi could you see? Naturally, the brothers had considered this project. They had imagined a computer built from the universe. Here's how they estimated the machine's size. It has been calculated that there are about 1079 electrons and protons in the observable universe; this is the so-called Eddington number of the universe. | 16:40 |
| fenn | 10^79 | 16:40 |
| fenn | "If pi doesn't show systematic behavior until more than ten to the seventy-seven decimal places, it would really be a disaster," Gregory said. "It would be actually horrifying." | 16:41 |
| fenn | "I wouldn't give up," David said. "There might be some other way of leaping over the barrier--" | 16:41 |
| fenn | the restaurant at the end of the universe | 16:42 |
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| kanzure | not a terrible representation of diybio | 18:03 |
| kanzure | http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-07-08/man-made-life-a-boon-with-risks-for-terror-and-error.html | 18:03 |
| kanzure | http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2010/07/bioethics-council-hears-pleas.html | 18:04 |
| kanzure | http://news.opb.org/article/8161-when_in_doubt_about_emerging_science_create_a_commission/ "U.S. Presidents, faced with potentially controversial biomedical research, have found an easy out: Create an ethics commission, and ask them to figure it out." | 18:04 |
| fenn | "Create a superintelligent AI, and ask them to figure it out" | 18:12 |
| kanzure | "You may wonder why we are offering all these details about specific countries, patenting of chemical processes, and pharmaceutical products. For a very simple reason: if patents were a necessary requirement for pharmaceutical innovation as claimed by their supporters, the large historical and cross country variations in the patent protection of medical products should have had a dramatic impact on national pharmaceutical industries." | 18:37 |
| kanzure | "In particular, at least between 1850 and 1980, most drugs and medical products should have been invented and produced in the United States and the United Kingdom, and very little if anything in continental Europe." | 18:37 |
| kanzure | "Further, countries such as Italy, Switzerland and, to a lesser extent, Germany, should have been the laggards of the pharmaceutical industry until recently. Instead the opposite was true for longer than a century." | 18:37 |
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| fenn | "as the material heats up, it changes the spacing between its layers, which means that lets a slightly different light wavelength through, changing color effectively. So all you have to do is put this at the focal plane of your camera, shine a reference light through it, and take an image of that, ... letting you see a heat image with a regular camera." http://redshiftsystems.com | 20:04 |
| fenn | i wonder what happened to the "lenslet" optical DSP | 20:13 |
| fenn | a vector optical analog computer.. zoinks | 20:16 |
| fenn | 3d flash terrain map: http://kosmosnimki.ru/3d/ | 20:19 |
| fenn | "When your dreams become reality, they are no longer your dreams." | 20:42 |
| fenn | http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/zzzzsteak12.jpg | 20:45 |
| kanzure | i think pam non-stick cooking spray has an effect on my brain | 20:52 |
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| kanzure | does monocuortrichlormethane, difluorodichloromethane, or lecithin ring any bells for anyone? | 20:52 |
| kanzure | i guess i meant monofluortrichlormethane | 20:53 |
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| kanzure | Effects of exposure to Freon 11, 1,1,1-trichloroethane or perchloroethylene on the lipid and fatty-acid composition of rat cerebral cortex. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3387963 | 20:54 |
| klafka | lecithin does | 20:56 |
| klafka | it's supposed to be a precursor to umm acetylcholine | 20:56 |
| klafka | people recommend taking it w/ piracetam | 20:56 |
| kanzure | hm that article was more about long-term effects on membrane composition (i.e. phospholipids) | 20:56 |
| kanzure | klafka: any sources on that? | 20:56 |
| klafka | on it being a precursor to acetylcholine? | 20:56 |
| * kanzure nods | 20:57 | |
| kanzure | i mean, anything in particular that you recommend linking to :P | 20:57 |
| klafka | lemme see | 20:57 |
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| klafka | i got a lot of this knowledge from the iminst a few years ago | 20:57 |
| kanzure | no doubt | 20:57 |
| kanzure | AJollyLife: you have some sources? | 20:58 |
| kanzure | i know he hangs out on imminst nearly constantly :) | 20:58 |
| klafka | i sorta stopped after i realized people were basically just dosing themselves on shit on the basis of supposition or really really scarce research | 20:58 |
| klafka | and they'd get contradictory reports come out and everyone would switch off of one thing to something else | 20:59 |
| klafka | so lecithin in the supplement world refers specifically to phosphatidyl choline | 20:59 |
| kanzure | yeah, imminst.org users do *not* know how to design experiments | 21:00 |
| fenn | http://photothrow.com if you can get past their horrific website "combines the art of photography and knitting" by switching colored threads around to make images | 21:00 |
| fenn | i can provide anecdotal evidence that lecithin prevents "headaches" for lack of a better term after taking large doses of piracetam | 21:02 |
| kanzure | a lot of the imminst.org stuff i'm seeing is about long-term dietary effects and so on | 21:09 |
| kanzure | especially on brain composition | 21:09 |
| kanzure | however, if it's a precursor to acetylcholine then i would expect to see more talk about neurotransmitters and their synthesis pathways | 21:09 |
| kanzure | well, i guess this says it pretty clearly | 21:11 |
| kanzure | http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/202/4364/223 "Lecithin consumption increases acetylcholine concentrations in rat brain and adrenal gland " | 21:11 |
| kanzure | "Consumption of a single meal containing lecithin, the major source of choline occurring naturally in the diet, increased the concentrations of choline and acetylcholine in rat brain and adrenal gland. Hence, the concentration of acetylcholine in the tissues may normally be under direct, short-term nutritional control." | 21:12 |
| kanzure | so is it bad of me to feel encouraged by the abstract since it maps to something i was suspecting might be happening? | 21:13 |
| kanzure | pdf: http://designfiles.org/papers/neuro/Lecithin%20consumption%20increases%20acetylcholine%20concentrations%20in%20rat%20brain%20and%20adrenal%20gland.pdf | 21:14 |
| kanzure | oops, nevermind | 21:14 |
| kanzure | does anyone have access to that paper? | 21:16 |
| fenn | This is a MEMS device consisting of a linear array of thin reflective ribbons that can be electrostatically driven up or down, with a separation of just a few microns, and movements of just a single micron. The general idea is very similar to the micromirror display chips from TI, but in this case instead of operating by the reflection of any type of light, the GLV chip works as a diffraction grating for a particular wavelength of laser, either r | 21:16 |
| fenn | actually, nevermind, that is useless | 21:17 |
| fenn | "so is it bad of me to feel encouraged by the abstract" - the point of an abstract is so you dont have to spend so much time reading the paper just to confirm your existing hunch | 21:21 |
| kanzure | yeah but doesn't "hunch hunting" make me just as bad as imminst.org users? | 21:26 |
| kanzure | hrm i should dig out my old mediawiki hdd.. i had a lot of notes on acetylcholine and sustained attention | 21:28 |
| kanzure | uh maybe not | 21:33 |
| kanzure | From The Transhumanist Wiki | 21:33 |
| kanzure | Jump to: navigation, search | 21:33 |
| kanzure | Previous (Suspended animation) | 21:33 |
| kanzure | Next (Symbol) | 21:33 |
| kanzure | er | 21:33 |
| kanzure | http://transhumanistwiki.com/wiki/Sustained_attention | 21:33 |
| kanzure | "Repeated pretreatment with amphetamine sensitizes increases in cortical acetylcholine release" | 21:34 |
| kanzure | i suppose my massive adderall intake might have something to do with it | 21:34 |
| kanzure | "Human Retinas Synthesize and Release Acetylcholine" gur? | 21:38 |
| kanzure | fenn: what do you think the likelihood of semantic sensemaking leading to any meaningful results in neuroscience? | 21:43 |
| kanzure | part of the reason for human_brain.yaml was so that i could have a way to automatically query my 'knowledge' of the brain | 21:43 |
| kanzure | without having to review every single paper evar | 21:43 |
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| kanzure | experience vault for lecithin: http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Lecithin.shtml | 22:09 |
| kanzure | "lipotrophics cause the liver to produce lecithin" | 22:11 |
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| fenn | i think human_brain.yaml is a great start | 23:10 |
| fenn | i was just telling someone about it yesterday | 23:10 |
| fenn | aurelia had gotten out her 'human brain coloring book' for some reason | 23:10 |
| fenn | btw, 'machinery of life' by goodsell is a book i could just look at for hours | 23:11 |
| kanzure | my original scheme was to write some python library for navigating human_brain.yaml | 23:12 |
| kanzure | so, there's supposed to be some sort of standardized coordinate system for brains and so on | 23:12 |
| kanzure | but in reality, there's no mapping of different anatomical structures to the coords | 23:13 |
| kanzure | unless you have an fmri data set that you are playing around with | 23:13 |
| fenn | seems difficult, as it's sort of relational, i.e. 'from this lobe to this crevice is X' | 23:13 |
| kanzure | part of my scheme was to just say screw it and instead just work on it from a semantic layer | 23:13 |
| kanzure | right | 23:13 |
| kanzure | so instead, why not just some semantic navigation thingy | 23:13 |
| kanzure | where you could query "what is left of this structure" | 23:13 |
| kanzure | interactive fiction style i guess (?) | 23:13 |
| fenn | i think you would need some kind of graphical/coordinate based system to make any sense of it | 23:14 |
| kanzure | the allen brain institute released some software for navigating their mouse brain data in 3d | 23:14 |
| kanzure | dunno if you remember me showing you that | 23:14 |
| kanzure | you could turn on/off gene expression in different regions, and see a highlighted region of the brain in opengl | 23:14 |
| kanzure | but it wasn't granular at all | 23:14 |
| kanzure | not to the level of detail of individual pathways, thalamocortical circuits, or things like that | 23:14 |
| fenn | wait a minute, lecithin is supposedly a psychotropic? | 23:15 |
| kanzure | is it? | 23:15 |
| fenn | oh, no, just "a cure to brain ailment" | 23:16 |
| kanzure | yeah erowid didn't deliver :( | 23:16 |
| kanzure | what i would like is a map or general approximation of the different wiring diagrams of the brain | 23:18 |
| kanzure | and the f | 23:18 |
| kanzure | low of neurotransmitters and inhibitory or excitatory pathways | 23:18 |
| fenn | like a kegg diagram sort of? | 23:20 |
| kanzure | or http://reactome.org/ i guess | 23:20 |
| fenn | just throw a couple million dollars a few neuroscience institutes at it | 23:21 |
| kanzure | btw i'm thinking about applyingbtw i'm thinking about submitting a talk to http://openhardwaresummit.org/ | 23:23 |
| kanzure | sigh irssi | 23:23 |
| fenn | reactome is much easier to jump into | 23:24 |
| fenn | kegg has like crashed my browser or something | 23:24 |
| kanzure | i just deleted a full copy of kegg from davinci the other day | 23:24 |
| fenn | is there even any info about openhardwaresummit anywhere? did you just find their stub page with google? | 23:25 |
| kanzure | there's no info about it out there | 23:25 |
| kanzure | so yeah it was random googling | 23:26 |
| kanzure | hm wait a sec.. they changed their page | 23:26 |
| kanzure | well, my email had the relevant content | 23:26 |
| kanzure | i don't get it: http://www.luxresearchinc.com/ | 23:41 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 23:51 |
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