2010-08-18.log

--- Log opened Wed Aug 18 00:00:17 2010
kanzure"where did i say that?" is evidence of needing sleep :) didn't see that you said "what do they mean" and not "what do you mean when.."00:14
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kanzureslashdot seems broken00:16
kanzurehttp://2020science.org/2010/08/17/synthetic-biology-ethics-and-the-hacker-culture/00:20
fennshouldn't you be sleeping?00:22
* fenn takes his own advice00:22
kanzurewait00:26
kanzurefenn: are you still around?00:26
* fenn blinks00:29
kanzuregah where is he00:30
kanzuremulti-people objective functions are so hard to solve for00:30
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kanzurehi elevenarms 00:32
elevenarmshey fenn00:32
fennhi00:32
kanzurefenn: see pm00:32
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kanzureand we're getting paid for this?01:48
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Utopiahhttp://future-bnci.org/ (not sure that it actually has content...) http://bci.tugraz.at08:42
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kanzurediybio needs bill nye09:08
kanzurehttp://www.billnye.com/09:10
kanzure".. where one of his professors was Carl Sagan" well that explains it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nye09:19
kanzureoh boy yet another secret silo! http://groups.google.com/group/genspacenyc/09:27
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kanzurehrm he was at ut last year in april. i even got the email :/09:34
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kanzuretechshop article .. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/business/11ping.html?_r=209:52
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panaxhi kanzure10:03
kanzurehello panax 10:03
panaxim reading your post on open cpus10:04
kanzureyeah?10:04
panaxseems like fpga would be sufficient most of the time10:05
panaxthough as far as open source asic magic is good10:05
panaxthough i cant find too many designs freely available10:06
panaxit works, i use magic daily10:07
panaxbut doesnt seem like theres much of a community around it besides professors10:07
kanzurewait, is "asic magic" a program?10:08
panaxits cad software for vlsi design10:08
panaxhttp://opencircuitdesign.com/magic/10:08
kanzurecool10:08
panaxit would be easy if people would make their designs available online10:09
panaxbut noone does maybe its so old few people use it10:10
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kanzurehi genehacker 10:55
kanzuregenehacker: how wast he sls/fab conference11:06
kanzure*was11:06
kanzure*the11:06
genehackerNASA wants to use electron beam freeform fabrication on a large scale to make stiffeners for rocket tanks11:06
genehackerthe cornell guys have a machine parameter description language11:07
genehackerit's xml based11:07
kanzurewas that the fab@home file format thingy you mentioned?11:08
genehackercornell guys have also managed to print food, as in real food, food that taste good11:08
kanzure"supposedly better than stl"11:08
genehackerstuff like cookies and meat11:08
genehackerit's sort of like .stl11:08
kanzureand it's parameters for operating a machine?11:08
genehackerit's more like g-code though11:09
kanzurecool when i google for "fab@home machine parameter description language" i get 11:09
kanzurehttp://www.hplusmagazine.com/articles/toys-tools/hackerspace-your-garage-downloading-diy-hardware-over-web11:09
kanzurebut it's not what i was looking for11:10
genehackerhmmm... they haven't put it online yet11:11
genehackerthe cornell guys have also managed to print foam11:12
genehackerEl Paso is making 3d circuits11:13
genehackerThey also discovered that electron beam melting produces unique and possibly editable microstructures11:14
genehackerwhich means if they manage to edit the microstructures, they'll change the design paradigm11:15
genehackersomeone's managed to get submillimeter position sensing with wiimotes11:16
fennlink to machine parameter language?11:17
fennor at least some more keywords11:18
kanzurefab@home11:19
kanzuretheir ilk11:19
kanzurefenn: i bet it's just an xml format for loading up some parameters to a fab@home device.. nothing spectacular11:20
kanzurebut if it's a gcode replacement then it could be as bad as "we replaced gcode syntax with xml syntax"11:20
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fennok nevermind11:20
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kanzuredave suggested if necessary we could just hire opencascade to not suck11:21
kanzuredunno if i'd trust them though :)11:21
fenni'm over here thinking 'machine parameter' is stuff like maximum bed travel, stiffness, power, etc11:21
genehackerspeed and deposition rate mainly11:25
genehackerthey also have some path stuff in there too11:25
genehackerit's possible to change the path algorithm real easily with it11:25
genehackeralso someone's making a microstereolithography system accurate to 1 micron with an off the shelf DLP projector for less than $30011:26
genehackerbut that's not in the proceedings...11:27
fennproceedings of the national academy of fab@home?11:29
genehackerof the solid freeform fabrication symposium11:31
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kanzurehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor11:43
kanzure"It was designed primarily as an air superiority fighter, but has additional capabilities that include ground attack, electronic warfare, and signals intelligence[5] roles."11:43
kanzureelectronic warfare?11:43
UtopiahEMP?11:43
genehacker electronic warfare as in jamming radar11:45
genehackersnooping, etc11:45
genehackeralso the next joint strike fighter might have SFF'd  components in it11:46
genehackerbecause it's cheaper to make them that way11:46
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kanzurei was wondering if it was just some lame way of saying they installed nmap on the raptor11:49
ybitfrom what i can tell, iphone is way more popular than android-based phones, and android based phones are way more popular than maemo/meego phones12:02
ybitkind of makes me feel like a bsd dev working on meego 12:03
genehackernot nmap12:03
genehackermore like FUCK YO MISSILE GUIDANCE12:04
phrykwhat is meego? the maemo iterative?12:04
genehackersheesh haven't you guys read anything about tactile missiles?12:05
phrykNo, any recommendations?12:06
genehackerthe AIAA's book on tactile missile design is interesting12:07
genehackeruseful for rocket design stuff too12:07
ybitphryk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meego12:09
phrykheh12:09
ybitwhoops, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeeGo12:09
phrykah yes right12:10
phryki was planning on getting an n900 next month or so12:10
phrykanyone got a better recommendation?^^12:10
phryki mainly want to use it to browse and be in irc and do ssh stuff and shit like that12:10
phrykso keys are a priority12:11
genehackerare we talking smutphones?12:11
genehackerI need to crack one12:12
phrykyes i am talking smutfoenz12:13
phrykcurrently i plan on gettin an n900 12:14
phrykFOOOD12:14
fennneato song graph for automated remixing http://blog.echonest.com/post/597162554/earworm-and-capsule12:15
genehackerthe thing nokia's touting as a hacker phone?12:15
fenni think the n810 is supposedly the hacker phone12:15
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phrykerr12:17
fennmeego just looks awful12:17
phryki wanted to say12:17
fennlike they did it on purpose even12:17
fennlike an iphone, but suck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meego-handset-launcher.png12:18
phrykI plan on getting an n900 with hspa/edge/foo "flatrate" and use it for irc/ssh, browsing and other misc. stuff i do12:18
fennwhoever drew that camera aperture icon should be fired12:18
phrykCan't you configure around that so you get an actual list?12:20
fennyeah set xdm = qtopia in your xorg file12:20
fennisnt this nicer? http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3034/2806071451_dfdfcea082.jpg12:21
fennas list http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/thumb/e/e0/Qtopia005.png/240px-Qtopia005.png12:22
fennbut whatever, i dont have a dog in this race12:22
phrykheh12:22
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ybitwow, $400 for each session you have with the rTMS here: http://www.psychiatry.uab.edu/patients/rtms/12:42
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ybitfenn: did steve mann go over exactly how his latest setup works?13:04
ybitit looks awesome13:04
jrayhawkthe n810 is not a phone13:09
jrayhawkI think something better than the n900 is supposed to come out in late Q4, but I haven't heard much on that lately.13:09
fennybit: he seemed more interested in talking about his hydraulaphone, unfortunately13:10
fenni got a pic of his old setup; the new version is just half of a myvu (literally hacksawed in half at the nose piece, with a camera pointing at the back of the myvu mirror (it has a 45 degree front surface mirror to reflect the image from the LCOS chip into your eye, which is perfect for an eyetap)13:11
kanzurejames clement claims that steve has somewhere on his website where he posts full videos of his daily activities13:13
kanzurejames also claims he found it once and saw a video clip of him and jata meeting with steve..13:13
jrayhawkwell, i guess the n810 can do VoIP and can be found with a 3G modem if you're careful.13:15
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fennprobably on glogger.mobi13:18
fennhis website is years of cruft piled up in a dense thicket though, there could be anything in there13:18
kanzuresounds like heybryan.org13:18
kanzurei like his tag cloud. http://glogger.mobi/13:19
kanzurewhat's with the whole not using whitespaces in tags thing?13:19
ybitpaper request: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20521875 "Positive effects of repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation on attention in ADHD Subjects: a randomized controlled pilot study."13:20
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fenncame from shitty interfaces that didnt understand quotes13:20
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fenniglogger features include "Emergency Alert and Monitoring System for autism or wandering individuals"13:24
fennseems like if they had an iphone you could just call them? maybe i'm biased13:24
ybiti don't quite understand why he wears large goggles, maybe it's so the entire reflected image is visible?..13:30
fennlarge goggles" are just his prescription glasses i think13:30
fennunless you have a pic that shows otherwise13:30
ybiti have no pic that shows otherwise :)13:31
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ybithttp://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/under-surveillance/1253588.bin?size=620x40013:32
ybiti just know no one, except him now, that has glasses that large13:32
fennthat almost looks like vacuum formed acrylic13:33
ybitwhoops, those aren't his glasses, here they are http://www.glogger.mobi/userpub2.php?username=mann&i=2010_08_17_12_28_17_4512790013:34
ybitand i guess they aren't that big compared to the last linked image13:34
fennhave you seen me in there yet?13:35
ybitnot yet13:35
Utopiahwow didn't know http://gnuplot.sourceforge.net/demo_canvas/ that's ... pretty trendy for an "old" GNU tool :-#13:36
fennpretty lame that his images aren't timestamped (uploaded 2010/8/17 is all we get?)13:37
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ybiti want this http://www.jneuroengrehab.com/content/2/1/6EMG 13:38
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ybitfenn: closest thing to it: http://glogger.mobi/u.php?u=mann13:39
ybitit == timestamps13:39
fenni'm overall pretty disappointed in iglogger13:40
fennit's just a crapload of cellphone pictures13:40
fennwho cares13:41
fennkanzure: stanley knutson on left http://glogger.mobi/userFunctions/imageResize/imageResizer.php?username=mann&prefix=2010_08_17_12_28_18_41559000&suffix=jpg&width=800&height=800&quality=8513:43
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kanzurefenn: hey wait, i saw that guy14:23
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kanzurethe aadl workflow is weird14:27
kanzurethe final output is a distributed real-time app to run on some hardware set?14:28
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kanzurea sysml mailing list is the last place i expect to find someone linking to c2.com15:05
kanzurehttp://groups.google.com/group/sysmlforum/msg/e1b4ef8838c7a18015:05
kanzureQuantumG: what's "space packet protocol"?15:10
QuantumGno idea15:10
QuantumGmy guess would be data transmission over packet radio configured for longer light times15:11
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kanzure"# SysML is an open standard and supports XMI and ISO 10303-303 (AP233) allowing for information interchange to other systems engineering tools such as CAD, electrical and engineering-analysis tools."15:28
kanzureaccording to wikipedia, ISO 10303-11 (not 21) is an example of something in the same class as sysml15:30
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kanzuresysml criticsm http://archive.eiffel.com/doc/manuals/technology/bmarticles/uml/page.html15:39
kanzure"Here you have to learn all this monstrous complexity just to build diagrams of a possible future system."15:39
kanzure".. and rectangles and diamonds and solid lines and dotted lines and solid ellipses and dotted ellipses and arrows of all kinds and keywords such as "const" and "sorted" (not to be confused with "ordered") and different semantics for a class depending on whether its name appears in roman or italics; but at least a programming language, even the worst of languages, is executable!"15:40
Utopiahhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executable_UML15:40
kanzure"Further evidence of the joke is provided by the frequent reference to "use cases" as a central element of the method. Back when "use case" was the buzzword of the Web-year I tried to understand what all the fuss was about, and had a hard time until I asked my grandfather, who explained it all to me: it's the new name for the top-down functional design of his adolescence."15:44
kanzure"You look at what the system must do ("use cases"), and deduce the system architecture from that analysis. This is the exact opposite of object-oriented design, which consciously refuses to pay too much attention, during the early phases, to the main function or functions of the system, because they are so subject to change, because they reproduce the behavior of previous systems (those which we are trying to replace with a new system),"15:44
kanzure"because they lead to early commitment to the order of operation (the most volatile aspect of the software), and because they focus on superficial properties of a system -- its interface to the rest of the world -- rather than its fundamental properties."15:44
QuantumGuhh huh.  Some people are attuned to thinking about engineering problems from an ontology perspective and think that what you actually do with the concepts in the domain is irrelevant.15:46
kanzure"Good software must be efficient -- oh, sorry, this is implementation-related, and we don't talk about implementation in polite company. (If UML addressed implementation it would have to address software issues; the good thing about bubbles and arrows, as opposed to programs, is that they never crash.)"15:46
QuantumGat the other end of the spectrum you have people who are used to thinking about what must be done and never stop to define their terms.15:46
QuantumGthe good engineer is somewhere in the middle15:46
kanzureUtopiah: i'm sorry, but this is insane.15:49
Utopiahyep15:49
QuantumGI have a friend of mine who has been saying "we should write this program together, we'd be rich!" and I keep saying to him "write down what you're talking about"15:49
QuantumGgetting domain knowledge out of experts remains like pulling teeth.15:50
kanzuresorry, but uml and sysml doesn't facilitate, in any way, getting domain knowledge out of experts, at all15:51
kanzureif anything it makes them type lots of CamelCaseCrap and point arrows at OtherCamelPoop15:51
QuantumGit really doesn't matter how you write it down, or visualize it15:53
QuantumGjust that you do15:53
kanzurehave you even looked at sysml stuff? :P15:54
kanzurecheck this out.. here's an attempt to model a telescope and active phasing experiment in sysml/uml15:55
kanzurehttp://mbse.sysmod.de/documents/Cookbook.pdf15:55
QuantumGdoesn't look particularly helpful.15:59
kanzure(that's my point)15:59
QuantumGbut, err, I can show you examples of webpages that are not particularly helpful, doesn't mean none exist that aren't.16:00
kanzurei thought the point of this was to make stuff look helpful though.16:03
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QuantumGhttp://quantumg.blogspot.com/2010/08/prospectors-skymap.html16:52
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kanzurei seem to be in violation of rfc 1855: "Don't send large amounts of unsolicited information to people.17:26
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kanzurehi JayDugger 17:38
JayDuggerGood evening, everyone. 17:38
JayDuggerI haven't had even a single cup of coffee yet, and so my daily resurrection hasn't yet finished.17:39
fenn"Mail should have a subject heading which reflects17:40
fennthe content of the message"17:40
fennif only people followed that17:40
fennsubject (no content)17:40
JayDuggerAmen to that, fenn.17:44
fenn"in general, it's not possible to retrieve messages once you have sent them" - is there a mail delay feature that would wait an hour or whatever before sending so you can tack on the 6 things you forgot to say?17:44
JayDuggerGoogle mail has a delayed send.17:44
JayDuggerIf you write the Subject after the body of an email, you can write a more accurate one sentence summary for the Subject.17:45
fennhuh?17:45
JayDuggerIf you write the Subject after the writing the content, instead of writing it before the content, then you'll probably write something that "reflects the content of the message."17:46
JayDuggerAt least that works for me when I remember to do it.17:47
fenn'be sure you understand the implications of export restrictions when you post' - remember to read top secret document #58699 before writing ANY mail!!117:47
kanzureJayDugger: most email seems to be people replying to other messages, thus the subject line is pre-populated17:49
fenni'm thinking about buying a $100 backup battery which could be used for either 19V (laptop) or 5V usb17:50
JayDuggerThat's true--but I've yet to see the Subject line in an un-editable state17:50
fennif i had more time i'd probably build one from scratch (assuming infinite time)17:50
fenni dont think my beagleboard system is going to be operational before burning man, and i can'tt run my laptop from usb17:51
JayDuggerWill you save time worth at least $100 to you by buying this battery?17:51
fenni dont have time to do it is the problem17:51
fennanyway i'd certainly spend more than 4 hours to build a 19V boost supply and battery management circuit17:52
fennbut it'd be worth more than $100 to me and the rest of the world17:52
fennsth like this from 3.7V lithium http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-Circuits/12vlaptopsupp.htm17:53
JayDuggerSpend the money and buy the part.17:53
fennle sigh17:53
JayDuggerI think I missed your point, fenn.17:53
fenni wish the beagleboard worked when i bought it, then i never would have gotten this laptop in the first place17:53
JayDuggerA working beagleboard would have substituted for the laptop?17:54
fennalternatively i could try stringing 5 li-po cells together in series17:54
fennyes17:54
fennwell, no, not really17:54
fennfsvo "working"17:54
JayDuggerAh.17:55
fenni just hate committing to spend money i haven't actually received yet, hence the whining17:56
JayDuggerThat's not whining, that's just good sense.17:56
fennalso, stereo microphones are way super duper overpriced17:57
JayDuggerThe beagleboard  and stereo microphones go together in a project of yours?17:57
kanzureJayDugger: how many cups have you had?17:58
JayDuggerTime for cup number two.17:58
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fennsee i'm hesitating because an extra battery for my laptop is only $50, and they have the same watt-hour rating, but that battery wouldn't be usable with any other laptop17:59
fenntrying to come up with a system where i dont have to buy special batteries for everything18:00
JayDuggerRight. Why buy a specialized product when a general solution exists?18:00
fennthe specialized product costs 1/2 price and may work better (laptop knows its running off battery)18:01
JayDuggerYeah, there is that.18:01
fennits just stupid that the laptops dont have an external battery port18:01
JayDuggerInconvenient for the end user, but vendor lock-in benefits the sellers.18:01
fennsorta, you can buy generic batteries for every laptop18:02
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fennso i'm realizing that "li-po usb charger" should have been on my shopping/todo list a long time ago18:05
JayDuggerkanzure, BAA: Related project (via Strategy Page, Metamodern, & Global Guerillas)   http://tinyurl.com/2cpmd5n18:10
kanzureJayDugger: yeah, i linked to that in here a few days ago. i liked that article.18:10
JayDuggerkanzure, BAA: Mobile Technology Complex / Mobile Parts Hospital ... never mind18:11
kanzure"bottomless cargo container"18:11
fennwhatever that means18:11
JayDuggerYeah, Strategy Page has an ugly website, even with AdBlock.18:11
JayDuggerOh, it's just hyperbole for a cargo container that can make parts.18:11
JayDuggerrather holds a machine shop.18:11
kanzurebut you got to that from BAA-10-86?18:13
JayDuggerNo, I saw that on the 14th. It reminds me of BAA-10-86.18:13
jrayhawkrfc1855: 'Never send chain letters via electronic mail. Chain letters are forbidden on the Internet. Your network privileges will be revoked. Notify your local system administrator if your ever receive one.'18:13
kanzure"Chain letters are forbidden on the internet." <318:13
kanzurewait18:14
jrayhawksomehow attempting to legislate the internet seems less embarassing from an RFC than from law18:14
kanzurehahah18:14
kanzureno what's worse is that you should send the chain letter on to your sysadmin18:14
jrayhawkno18:14
jrayhawkfuck you18:14
kanzure"when you perpetuate the chain letter, just be sure to also send it to your sysadmin"18:14
kanzurehahah18:14
JayDuggerhttp://www.cleggind.com/specialstructures/mobilepartsmachineshop.htm18:15
JayDuggerand in PDF, http://www.cleggind.com/50_Moving_Technology_Forward.doc.pdf18:15
kanzure"7-ton Mazak Lathe" is that honestly necessary?18:15
fennneat, http://www.instructables.com/id/Heavy-duty-portable-charger-for-usb-devices-phone/step2/The-circuit-overview/18:16
JayDuggerClegg Industries out of "808  Bobwhite Road  .  Victoria, TX 77905"18:16
fennexcept for the PIC, that's lame18:16
JayDuggerSounds good, doesn't it?18:16
jrayhawkrfc1855 should us more traditional RFC language, like MUST and SHOULD18:17
kanzure"In the 27,000 pound mobile mini-manufacturing center is a Mazak Integrex 100Y machining center tooled with Valenite VM Modular Tooling. Included in the standard package are (10) different sizes of OD turning VM 63 tools, (4) different sizes of grooving and cutoff tools, (9) different end mill adapters, (8) different turning adapters, (4) different ID boring VM63 tools, (5) different boring bar adapters, (3) different shell mill adapters, (8) differ18:17
jrayhawkalso lots of ascii diagrams18:17
kanzurehttp://www.cleggind.com/specialstructures/valenite.htm18:17
JayDuggerSurely they've a local design buffer, and don't get all of it via satellite...18:18
fenn[______________]  <- clue-by-four18:18
JayDuggerHeh.18:18
kanzureall the rfc1855 pages i find via google suck18:19
kanzurethis looks better: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc185518:19
JayDuggerfenn, kanzure: I invited you both to the marked-up copy of the BAA.18:19
kanzureJayDugger: yeah i have the link around here..18:19
kanzurehttps://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1rh_AC_wBhIYw7pcV9vPcxGMSG0jw2Grht3Y_ZEOF1j4&hl=en#18:19
JayDuggerThat looks right.18:20
kanzurewait, no18:20
kanzurehttps://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1xb-ttVVyvZJ6TAA9W1-ZlCkZ0MutD-ORL9KxtRQkqMI&hl=en&authkey=CJzf5r8N18:20
kanzurethere we go18:20
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JayDuggerCan your robot arm do this? http://www.robotspodcast.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=92818:20
kanzureJayDugger: chances are we're going to be using a prime contractor in DC18:21
kanzureso that wheel is already in motion18:21
kanzure"Restrictive notices notwithstanding, proposals may be handled, for administrative purposes only, by a support contractor." heh i didn't see that line originally18:22
JayDuggerMany eyes, shallow bugs, so to speak18:23
JayDuggerBAA: Summary of the costs of the proposed research, including total base cost, estimates of base cost in each year of the effort, estimates of itemized options in each year of the effort, and cost sharing if relevant; 18:24
kanzurebut yeah, it's pretty clear they want access control restrictions on specific revision control repositories, especially for ITAR guidelines18:24
JayDuggerRight.18:25
kanzureand that seems reasonable enough, although i don't know how they typically implement ITAR restrictions when it comes to development/engineering/programming18:25
fennany suggestions on making battery packs from cellphone batts? i was thinking of tearing apart power supply connectors for the plated spring copper electrodes, then embedding the whole pile in shapelock (plastic goo)18:25
kanzure(no digital records? only dead tree format? who knows)18:25
fennthe issue being how to get power out of the battery once you've charged it in a wall charger18:26
JayDuggerAnecdote: a co-worker came to my employer from LM's F-35 plant. He claims they took ITAR just as seriously as security clearances.18:26
JayDuggerFenn: no idea. I've considered similar projects, but ended up buying batteries instead.18:26
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JayDuggerBAA: No human or animal use in this project, so that's one less problem.18:27
fennbaaaa18:27
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JayDuggerBAA: Ask the support/prime contractor to handle the proposal documentation. If you have to do it with them, see if they have templates for the Word, PowerPoint, and PDF documents.18:29
kanzureyep18:29
kanzurethat's in motion18:29
kanzuretelecon with 'em on the 23rd18:29
JayDuggerBAA: Good.18:29
JayDuggerBAA: See if they've worked examples for similar successful projects, if you can't assign the whole proposal work load to them.18:30
kanzurenah, we don't want them to make up crap that we're not going to be doing18:31
kanzurebut yeah..18:31
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kanzurei'm really tempted to suggest we throw something together for META-2 as well18:32
kanzureunder "technical area three"- they are basically asking for the development of a component library or hardware repository18:32
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kanzureand frankly they have enough funding attached to this project18:32
kanzureso if it would take a few million dollars to go find some experts and sit down with them to develop the hardware packages, then that would be doable18:32
JayDuggerBAA: 2.6 Personnel, Qualifications, and Commitments--If you pay them, prove the credentials and contributions.18:33
JayDuggers/the/their/18:33
JayDuggerWell...the same program manager handles META and vehicleforge.mil, accoring to his LinkedIn profile.18:33
JayDuggerAnd if the two duplicate effort, you might end up working on it de facto if not de jure.18:34
fennwow, $1.80 per 2800mAh 18650 cell18:34
JayDuggerThat said, I don't know if those BAAs remain open.18:34
kanzurethe forge is an opportunity to grow the part library too if i execute it well enough. so there's always that.18:34
kanzurebut since they crank out proposals it might be beneficial to aim for it?18:35
fennoh nm that's an active auction, not buy-it-now18:35
JayDuggerIf they do, check with the prime/support contractor about whether the extra effort seems practical.18:35
kanzurefenn: how would you build a hardware repository if you had a few million dollars18:36
JayDuggerThey should have experienced professional judgment for that call, and if not, why use them?18:36
kanzureor a component library or whatever you call it18:36
kanzureincentives/prizes? hiring someone to just tell you what you need to know?18:36
fennhis is a pretty sweet deal on 18650's too: http://search.ebay.com/39022681838918:37
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fennkanzure: first of all there are large repositories of freely available "stuff" in various cad formats18:37
fenni would pay people to convert all that stuff, (using scripts) into the same format18:38
fennthen take a look at it and see what's there, what we need to cover a decent working set18:38
JayDuggerBAA: 2.7 Schedule and Milestones--Program Management by pretty picture...best left to a professional who can judge what will convince the audience. I.e., NOT the engineers. (no offense)18:38
kanzuregantt charts probably18:38
fennalso i'd negotiate with mcmaster for usage rights to their catalog18:38
kanzureooh mcmaster negotiations18:39
kanzureor we could just scrape their data (primarily the parameters)?18:39
fennthey have cad models too18:39
fenni dont know how representative the cad data is wrt the exact parameters18:39
katsmeow-afkspeaking of such, i am scraping digikey atm, if anyone needs such data18:39
kanzurekatsmeow-afk: octopart.com has that sorta scraped data, i thought18:39
fennalso there is a photo, which is more informative than a cad model sometimes18:39
kanzurekatsmeow-afk: but yes i'd like to take a look at it18:40
JayDuggerYeah, but think of the slides at hardware presentations..."Gadget X at TRL Z by YYYY!" I suspect they want a certain amount of PowerPoint porn here.18:40
katsmeow-afkkanzure, it's arranged differently18:40
JayDuggerI Am Not A Program Manager (IANAPM)18:40
JayDuggerBAA: 2.8 Statement of Work (SOW) This matters a lot. Make sure it meets the spirit and preferably the letter of the BAA.18:41
katsmeow-afkkanzure , looking at http://octopart.com/parts/category--memory--ram/search?c=4297, i get more data outside the pdf from digikey18:41
JayDuggerBRB.18:42
kanzurefenn: well, other than models, there's also the issue of basic equations (even simple stuff like hooke's law) and presumably that's not systematically documented and attached to components anywhere18:42
katsmeow-afkoctopart.com:18:42
katsmeow-afkVishay  -  IRFPE50PBF datasheet: pdf  18:42
katsmeow-afkmosfet, n, 800v, 7.8a, to-247ac; transistor type:mosfet;...18:42
katsmeow-afk[20:42] <katsmeow-afk> tiggr, define IRFPE50PBF 18:42
katsmeow-afk[20:42] <TiggrBot>  IRFPE50PBF : MOSFET N-CH 800V 7.8A TO-247AC ; Vishay/Siliconix ; MOSFET N-Channel, Metal Oxide ; Standard ; 1.2 Ohm @ 4.7A, 10V ; 800V ; 7.8A ; 4V @ 250uA ; 200nC @ 10V ; 3100pF @ 25V ; 190W ; Through Hole18:42
kanzureoctopart has to deal with a lot of really terrible data18:43
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kanzurein case i wasn't clear, i'd really like to see the data you've scraped18:43
katsmeow-afki just gave you a line18:44
kanzurei think we're having a communication error again...18:44
katsmeow-afki have it in html tables as well18:44
fenndo you know what those fields correspond to?18:45
kanzureyou mean values :)18:45
katsmeow-afktoday, i added 14,857 unique mosfet part numbers, in what way would you like to see how much of what part ?18:45
katsmeow-afkfenn, yeas18:45
katsmeow-afki abbreviated the data a bit too much , even for irc, i can add tags for each data item back in18:45
fennkatsmeow-afk: i'd like them sorted by wattage per price18:46
katsmeow-afkfenn, you would18:46
katsmeow-afkoddly, i can do that, but not set up for that atm18:46
JayDuggerBAA: 3. Cost This  also matters, since it has no page limit. I lack experience to make  suggestions. Best left to the prime/support contractor. 18:46
fennmy main beef with digikey is not being able to sort by price18:46
kanzureJayDugger: at least three (maybe four) full-time developers 18:47
katsmeow-afkfenn, i was setting the data up for irc, i an guessing you want another format18:47
kanzure"full-time"18:47
fennyeah irc is not the best databse query result format18:47
ybitping18:47
kanzurepong18:47
katsmeow-afkpingles18:48
ybitpongles18:48
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kanzuredongles18:48
katsmeow-afkfound that out the hard way one nite, someone asked Tiggr for a ton of data, she got klined18:48
JayDuggerBAA: The acceptance/rejection notice will arrive by snail mail to the mailing address of the Technical Point of Contact. Make sure that address has reliable delivery, and see if DARPA will do registered mail.18:49
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any01751249erg18:50
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JayDuggerBAA: VI. B. 1. Meeting and Travel Requirements: Dog and pony shows at DARPA's option? Does this happen, or do they just keep the option open? Ask Dave and the support/prime.18:51
kanzurethe prime is in dc for a reason18:52
kanzurebasically i'm willing to go to dc once or twice, but that's it. they'll know this.18:52
JayDuggerBAA: "DARPA may elect to award other award instruments due to the need to apply publication or other restrictions." I doubt this will happen, given the stated open source licensing goal, but it does lie in the fine print.18:53
JayDuggerBAA:"There  shall be no dissemination or publication, ... without prior written approval of DARPA's Public Release Center  (DARPA/PRC)." I doubt you'll have any restrictions, but see if you can get a copy of  DARPA/PRC process, and ask Dave & prime/support how this works. 18:55
JayDuggerBAA: Get and read a copy of DoD Instruction 5230.27. Then ask Dave & prime/support.18:57
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JayDuggerBAA: I think the CFR, USC, and Executive Orders all live on-line and have search indexes.18:58
JayDuggerConsider reading everything first.18:58
JayDuggerThat's probably overkill, but it would help me sleep nights in your position.18:58
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JayDuggerBAA: Does vehicleforge.mil have to work with a screen reader, as suggested by VI.B.7? I suspect that's a purely formal requirement, but I do not know so.19:02
JayDuggerBAA: Add "DARPA-BAA-10-86@darpa.mil" to your address book.19:03
kanzuremeh i have some experience making screen-reader-compatible websites before anyway19:03
JayDuggerI hope it won't really prove important. Again, ask those who know.19:04
JayDuggerBAA: Ask Dave & prime/support--what's DFARS 252.227-7017?19:05
kanzureelevenarms won't know.19:05
JayDuggerBAA: DFARS 252.227-7017 from VIII.A.1.a19:05
JayDuggerThat's why you've a prime.19:05
kanzurehttp://farsite.hill.af.mil/reghtml/regs/far2afmcfars/fardfars/dfars/dfars252_227.htm#P1104_8298119:06
JayDuggerAwesome. That's a good site to bookmark.19:06
JayDuggerBAA: "Anticipated individual awards- Multiple awards are anticipated" Does DARPA plan to fund multiple teams?19:09
kanzureJayDugger: emailed you my bookmarks related to this..19:09
kanzureyes19:10
fenni think that means they don't give out the money in one lump sum19:10
kanzurethat's why i'm pondering META-2..19:10
kanzureyes but they also fund multiple offerors19:10
kanzurei mean, do you really think they'd spend $9M on 12 months of development effort?19:10
fennno19:11
JayDuggerOh, yeah, sure...19:11
kanzureme either.19:11
JayDuggerthat's not much money.19:11
kanzurewhat?19:11
kanzureare you kidding?19:11
JayDuggerFor sufficiently federal values of "much."19:11
JayDuggerDoD will spend $50,000 per round for artillery shells, after all.19:12
fennthere are expected salary ranges; i don't think they will fund >10x what an academic gets paid19:12
JayDuggerDifferent pot of money, but all the same department, and some bureaucracies keep score by budget size.19:12
JayDuggerGood point, fenn. They also want working hardware.19:12
JayDuggerSee II.1.13.19:13
fennhardware, software, the difference is people feel ok blowing millions on one but not the other19:13
* fenn grunts19:13
JayDuggerBAA: You can fork existing code forge code bases, if you watch the licensing.19:14
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kanzureyes that's right19:14
kanzuregitorious is one option, but i think it sucks19:14
fennbtw quirky.com looked intriguing19:15
kanzurepiny/ikiwiki/git might be interesting. lots of options available.19:15
JayDuggerHave y'all thought about the three-year support requirement?19:15
kanzureyes19:15
fenngetting paid wads of cash for three years isn't a bad deal19:15
kanzurewell there's also the possibility of a third party support system (which dave and i have outlined if necessary)19:16
JayDuggerYeah, and I yet think asking ESR about extracting data from code forges makes sense. He's the only person I've heard of working on that problem. No doubt others exist, though.19:16
kanzurewhat?19:16
JayDuggerYeah...did you think about hiring that out? Do you really want to do tech support for the next three years?19:16
kanzurei'm sorry, but there's shitloads of people working on web-exposed revision control systems19:16
fennthat's a stupid problem.. contact admin, database dump to distributed revision control, done as far as i'm concerned19:16
JayDuggerThat doesn't surprise me. I don't follow that problem.19:17
kanzurethat's why i'm making the dev team ;)19:17
JayDuggerI don't think it's quite so easy as that, but I admit I've not tried.19:17
fennesr was scraping the data, which seems like a horrible thing in this day and age19:17
JayDuggerI.e., near-total ignorance on my part.19:17
fennfrom an open source host19:17
fennguh19:17
kanzurereally?19:17
kanzuresurely you're lying fenn19:17
fennyes19:18
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fenni'm just making shit up actually19:18
kanzurejrayhawk: where's the everyone loves eric raymond link19:18
JayDuggerNo, he ended up doing that, per his blogging, anyway.19:18
JayDuggerI assumed he had good reason, but lack competence to judge it.19:18
kanzureanyway19:18
JayDuggerYeah, I need to prepare soon for work.19:19
fenndoes ikiwiki not suck yet?19:19
kanzurejrayhawk: ping19:19
JayDuggerI'll work more on this tomorrow.19:19
JayDuggerGood night, everyone.19:20
kanzuregood night19:20
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fennin other news, i redid my lifelog parser with pyparsing19:20
kanzurewas it painful19:21
fennstuck on something, not sure why it doesnt work right19:21
kanzureapparently the pyparsing guy lives in austin19:21
jrayhawkeric raymond rarely has good reason for anything19:21
kanzurebreathing?19:21
fennit didnt work at all for the longest time, then something clicked and i realized i had to use Group() to make a tree19:21
jrayhawkhaha19:21
jrayhawkJayDugger could really use a persistent client.19:22
kanzureagreed19:22
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kanzurehi shepazu 19:22
fennso could any************19:22
fennbut it is allergic to unix, or something19:23
kanzureJayDugger is supposedly a debian user19:23
kanzurejrayhawk: fenn was wondering if ikiwiki has got rid of the suck yet19:23
jrayhawkHe'll have to define the suck first, but I doubt it.19:23
kanzurei don't know what to tell him19:23
kanzurefrankly ikiwiki has been much better for me ever since i didn't have to install it :)19:24
fennheh19:24
jrayhawkYeah, that really is the biggest issue.19:24
kanzure(thanks btw)19:24
jrayhawkJoey has an actual hosting service called 'branchable', now, if ever you decide you hate Piny.19:24
kanzurethis sounds way too web2.0 for a debian developer to be involved in19:25
kanzure"branchable"19:25
fennbranch.ly19:25
kanzureugh19:25
jrayhawkSpeaking of dubious trends, there's a mediocre WYSIWYGish interface for Markdown Ikiwiki partially provisions for.19:26
kanzurei wonder how he got branchable.com19:27
jrayhawkhttp://wmd-editor.com/examples/splitscreen19:27
kanzurehuh.19:27
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jrayhawkhttp://www.branchable.com/news/free_hosting_for_Free_Software/ is important, i guess19:35
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kanzure"Hey Bryan, I think your website is down. I was gonna show someone." - Amy19:37
kanzurewhere does this come from19:37
kanzurewho the hell is amy19:37
kanzure"Under the BAA/PRDA method, multiple awards are generally made based on the quality of the proposals and availability of funding.  Occasionally, the AF may be interested in buying only a certain portion (or portions) of a proposal.  The BAA/PRDA method provides the flexibility to make an award for only those portions or tasks of the proposal that are of interest to the Government."19:40
kanzure"You will be notified in writing if the Government intends on making an award based on your proposal.  The notification will indicate if all or only portions of your proposal will be included in the award."19:40
kanzureok yeah, multiple award recipients19:40
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kanzure"Henry Markram thinks he can do it by 2018. He's probably right."21:43
kanzure"If he gets the funding."21:43
kanzure"Funny thing, life. I just spent the weekend in Reno with my sweetie Shelly, who's considering moving there to do her doctorate with him working on the Blue Brain project. The catch?"21:43
kanzure"He's so desperately underfunded that he can't even afford to fund her (or any of his other grad students, for that matter). And now that he's alienated IBM by calling them on what he describes as a false and misleading claim to have modeled a cat's brain, he doesn't have access to their funding or use of their Blue Gene supercomputer any more."21:43
kanzure"This is the field that Shelly's been working in for the past few years, and she says it's not even a matter of time 'til we can simulate a human brain in a computer; at this point, it's merely a matter of money."21:43
kanzure"Kurzweil claimed that computational brain modeling problem that hundreds of thousands of scientists are working. In reality, the number is more like seven, all of them desperately underfunded, and all of them scraping and struggling to get together as much money as a typical university spends in a month on its football program.21:43
kanzurei laughed :)21:44
kanzurei guess that would be the result of calling them out on the cat simulation21:44
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QuantumGnice.  btw, when has Kurzweil said thousands of scientists?21:58
QuantumGcause that's a good time to say "cool, can you name 10 for me?21:58
kanzureit's very much a matter of throwing money at the right people21:59
kanzurea few million dollars to marvin minsky isn't going to get you the neurophysiology simulations of markram (in NEURON or whatever else)21:59
QuantumGas is everything in life21:59
kanzurewell what's weird is that the neurophysiology stuff was going on back in the 70s too.. about the time of a lot of the ai research22:00
QuantumGbut, to be honest, only this year have I heard anyone describe reverse engineering a brain in terms of actual numbers of man hours using technique x, y, z22:00
kanzurei've been seeing hard numbers since at least 2008..22:01
QuantumGwell, the video I saw may have been from that era22:01
QuantumGso yeah22:01
kanzurewhen was the ieee spectrum article?22:01
kanzurehttp://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/ethics/reverse-engineering-the-brain22:02
kanzurecool, june 2008.. 22:02
kanzurethanks confirmation bias!22:02
QuantumGnice :)22:02
QuantumGso yeah, saying "what's happened in the last two years?" would be reasonable22:02
kanzuremarkram has gained more publicity (and apparently lost his funding)22:02
kanzurea few new versions of NEURON have been released22:03
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kanzureopennurbs/swig is compiling again (now without errors)23:18
kanzurethe trick is that %ignore can be used with Namespace::MethodName without specifying all of the ridiculous pointer/const/const pointer combinations 23:19
kanzure%ignore Class::MethodName; // etc.23:19
kanzure"They tried that in Ontario, Canada, in the 1990's. Mike Harris pushed through legislation to cut welfare benefits to those who were not participating in workfare projects. One million unemployed people formed a mob outside the parliament (legislative) buildings, arguing that having to work for a living was slavery."23:43
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--- Log closed Thu Aug 19 00:00:17 2010

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