| --- Log opened Sat Aug 28 00:00:17 2010 | ||
| kanzure | http://howfuckedismydatabase.com/ | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 00:24 |
| ybit | moin | 00:59 |
| ybit | fenn or kanzure: do you have linkage to the effort on code.google.com to create a cad kernel? it was mentioned awhile back.. | 01:00 |
| * ybit forgets fenn is away | 01:00 | |
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| ybit | i think this is it: http://code.google.com/p/wildcat-cad/ | 01:02 |
| kanzure | i've been working on a glut/wx display for visualization | 01:24 |
| kanzure | but one of the things i can never quite get right is the interface to this sort of viewer | 01:24 |
| kanzure | some 3D viewers use arrow keys for rotation, others for moving the camera in xy | 01:24 |
| kanzure | and then some allow the use of the mouse. does anyone have some preferences worth sharing | 01:24 |
| ybit | this is what i want: http://cad4arch.com/cadtools/ | 01:41 |
| ybit | and i want it to be GPL now | 01:41 |
| ybit | freecad's page looks much more pretty than i recall: http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/free-cad/index.php?title=Main_Page | 01:41 |
| * ybit considers yet another effort to bring CAD to blender | 01:43 | |
| kanzure | ybit: please read http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cadfaq/ before going on a stupid blendercad crusade | 01:54 |
| ybit | hehe, okay | 01:54 |
| kanzure | also you should try my python CAD engine before doing anything rash | 01:55 |
| ybit | i'd like this explained... | 02:02 |
| ybit | meh, nevermind. | 02:03 |
| ybit | kanzure: so why are you working on something for wildcat-cad? | 02:06 |
| ybit | s/something/display | 02:07 |
| ybit | the license of occ? | 02:07 |
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| Utopiah | Social Prosthetic Systems (SPS) http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~kwn/Kosslyn_pdfs/2006Kosslyn_chap_in_EvCogNeuro_SocialProstheticSystems.pdf | 03:10 |
| JayDugger | MoyUMg3K1 | 03:29 |
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| JayDugger | Sigh...wrong window. Time to change THAT password. | 03:29 |
| joshcryer | Why would it be in your clipboard in the first place? :/ | 04:41 |
| JayDugger | I admit to sloppiness. | 04:48 |
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| patrickmclaren | good evening/morning | 05:40 |
| JayDugger | Good morning. | 05:40 |
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| katsmeow-afk | gratings and solutions | 07:51 |
| katsmeow-afk | greetings and salutations | 07:51 |
| katsmeow-afk | nvm | 07:51 |
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| kanzure | http://seasteading.org/blogs/main/2010/08/28/patri-says-help-us-create-a-compelling-book-proposal | 09:31 |
| kanzure | ybit: i am not working on wildcat-cad | 09:32 |
| kanzure | and it's not because of the license for opencascade | 09:32 |
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| QuantumG | hmm, SeaDragon + Seasteading? | 09:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | SeaDragon? | 09:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | it's a baot, a rocket, a dive business, a "fish",, etc,, which do you mean? | 09:38 |
| QuantumG | the rocket | 09:38 |
| katsmeow-afk | ah | 09:39 |
| QuantumG | we were talking about it for an hour about 40 minutes ago | 09:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | support services for sat launches seems real specialised | 09:39 |
| QuantumG | http://www.spacevidcast.com/spaceup/spaceup-pod-one/ | 09:39 |
| QuantumG | SpaceUpDC is on and streaming live | 09:39 |
| QuantumG | well, SeaDragon really wouldn't be for sat launches.. more like colonizing space. | 09:39 |
| joshcryer | More like peppering the moon with large constructors and material processing tech. | 09:40 |
| joshcryer | You wouldn't want to fly on a Sea Dragon. | 09:40 |
| QuantumG | colonizing space is predominately about launch costs | 09:41 |
| QuantumG | or magical compressed manufacturing technology and already in-space resources :) | 09:41 |
| joshcryer | I don't see us miniturizing replicator tech until after the 2050s. | 09:42 |
| QuantumG | oh, speaking of which, I was looking at electric aluminum furnaces | 09:42 |
| joshcryer | So it's going to be shipping container sized, imho. | 09:43 |
| QuantumG | http://www.dansworkshop.com/aluminum-foundry/homebuilt-electric-melting-furnace.htm is pretty cool | 09:43 |
| joshcryer | (which is still ridiculous when you are talking about being able to make anything) | 09:43 |
| joshcryer | Does that use induction heating? | 09:43 |
| * joshcryer looks | 09:43 | |
| QuantumG | yeah, I don't actually know.. that furnace is made from materials that could be processed from lunar regolith.. how big the heat-brick-making-machine and the perlite-making-machine would be is another story | 09:44 |
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| QuantumG | you need a heat-brick carving robot of some sort (I say some sort of 3d printer type cutter) | 09:45 |
| QuantumG | err, s/3d printer/programmable xy surface/ | 09:45 |
| joshcryer | Nope, it's a resistance furnace. | 09:46 |
| joshcryer | (eg, current to cause heat rather than resonnance) | 09:46 |
| QuantumG | fun | 09:46 |
| QuantumG | then you'd need some rollers to make sheet metal | 09:46 |
| joshcryer | I've seen those plans before (the original Gingery plans) | 09:46 |
| QuantumG | vacuum welding arms of some sort | 09:47 |
| joshcryer | I'm on the Gingery Machine Yahoo! group but it's fairly inactive. | 09:47 |
| QuantumG | wire pulling | 09:47 |
| QuantumG | and then there's the whole solar power collection issue | 09:47 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: "magical compressed manufacturing technology" is our speciality :P | 09:48 |
| joshcryer | I'm a fan of CSP / sterling engines. | 09:48 |
| joshcryer | I used to rant about it ALL the time in #space. | 09:48 |
| QuantumG | it's getting big but not a whole shipping container big. | 09:48 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: gingery_machine is fairly active actually- especially the metal labelling discussion recently | 09:48 |
| QuantumG | you could conceivably fit it all on a pallet. | 09:48 |
| kanzure | i can also proudly say i've received a dmca takedown notice from vince gingery :( | 09:49 |
| joshcryer | Lemme know when you can fab a laptop from raw dirt in a machine the size of a microwave, pls. | 09:49 |
| kanzure | and that's partly why designfiles.org isn't up at the moment (the other reason is that i'm not allowed to fix the issues) | 09:49 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, typical. | 09:49 |
| QuantumG | kanzure: are you violating? | 09:49 |
| kanzure | there's numerous issues going on but basically the dmca stuff is fixed now that the machine is dead | 09:49 |
| kanzure | but it opened up a new set of problems | 09:49 |
| kanzure | anyway, don't mind me. /me gets back to work | 09:50 |
| QuantumG | when receiving a dmca takedown there's three options: comply, file a counternotice, or just ignore the fucktard. | 09:50 |
| kanzure | he filed it through the university | 09:50 |
| joshcryer | brb or I'll miss this geek session | 09:50 |
| kanzure | so they took it slightly more seriously | 09:50 |
| QuantumG | ahh, painful | 09:50 |
| kanzure | and i think got matt (my professor/advisor) in trouble | 09:51 |
| kanzure | who is away in germany.. | 09:51 |
| kanzure | and i can't just walk in there and steal the computer.. that would be in bad form, and it's bolted down to the table anyway, blah blah blah | 09:51 |
| katsmeow-afk | speaking of machine, can i grind/cut the taper for a 5C collet directly into the end of a spindle while it's in the mill? | 09:51 |
| kanzure | "Approaching black rock city, out of cell range til Sept 8. Wish me luck!" | 09:52 |
| kanzure | wtf kinda adventure is this guy on | 09:52 |
| kanzure | "black rock city"? | 09:52 |
| joshcryer | FYI if you'd like to redistribute the DMCA'd files to me, I'd be pleased. | 09:52 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: :) in good time | 09:53 |
| QuantumG | katsmeow-afk: I wish I could answer. | 09:53 |
| katsmeow-afk | i wish you could also :-) | 09:53 |
| * katsmeow-afk goes afk-er to do more real life stuff | 09:55 | |
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| kanzure | institute of unnecessary research http://www.unnecessaryresearch.org/ | 11:35 |
| kanzure | anna showed up on my radar a few times before because of her involvement with the blue brain project (and with diybio) | 11:36 |
| kanzure | 2~ | 11:36 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Dumitriu | 11:37 |
| joshcryer | Aptly named. | 11:37 |
| kanzure | http://tintarts.org/exhibitions/unleashed-devices/ | 11:42 |
| kanzure | i think i recognize the name 'andrew back'.. he runs the open source hardware user group in london | 11:42 |
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| ybit | kanzure: what's the visualizer based on if not wildcat? | 13:57 |
| ybit | pythonocc? | 13:58 |
| kanzure | opengl | 13:58 |
| ybit | why? :) | 13:59 |
| ybit | why not use pythonocc or freecad?* | 13:59 |
| kanzure | opencascade sucks immensely | 14:00 |
| ybit | or heekscad | 14:00 |
| kanzure | freecad and heekscad are built on top of opencascade | 14:00 |
| ybit | ah, so you're building a cad kernel | 14:00 |
| ybit | to replace occ | 14:00 |
| kanzure | what i have right now is python code to build and export STEP files | 14:01 |
| kanzure | at some point i'll work on the wrapper that makes stuff like sphere.fuse(box) possible | 14:01 |
| kanzure | the idea is that as someone is typing out those commands, they could also see what they are making in an opengl window thingy | 14:01 |
| ybit | oh, i like that idea :) | 14:01 |
| kanzure | basically this is openscad except it really does do CAD | 14:01 |
| kanzure | also the only dependencies so far are on internal python libraries and pyopengl | 14:02 |
| kanzure | i think a dependency on pyopengl is reasonable | 14:02 |
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| ybit | comcast! | 14:19 |
| * ybit angrily waves an or two at them | 14:19 | |
| ybit | any python library is reasonable, i suck at packaging anything more than this..thus i suck at life too | 14:20 |
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| kanzure | hehe | 16:21 |
| kanzure | forrest and i were hanging out at a restaurant talking about diybio stuff | 16:21 |
| kanzure | and someone slapped down a handful of business cards on our table "please call me if you ever need jobs" | 16:21 |
| kanzure | and quickly walked off | 16:21 |
| joshcryer | What were the business cards? | 16:22 |
| kanzure | some guy working at xbiotech.com | 16:25 |
| kanzure | oh boy.. monoclonal antibody therapeutics | 16:26 |
| joshcryer | Nice facility. | 16:26 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: why is heekscad.org broken? did i do that? | 16:36 |
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| klafka | man monoclonal antibody therapeutics is a big thing lately isn't it | 16:38 |
| klafka | there is a company my friend's father owns that does that | 16:38 |
| kanzure | paaaaatents | 16:40 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i fixed it, but why was it not in /etc/apache2/sites-enabled/ ? | 16:41 |
| joshcryer | At least the google code page works. | 16:41 |
| joshcryer | I'm going to check out HeeksCAD> | 16:41 |
| kanzure | owen taylor attempted some python+openscad crap: http://rocklinux.net/pipermail/openscad/2010-August/000573.html | 16:41 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: the .org should work now :) | 16:41 |
| kanzure | like hell i'm memorizing a longass code.google.com address.. | 16:41 |
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| klafka | uggh | 16:46 |
| klafka | fuck patents | 16:46 |
| klafka | fuck them | 16:47 |
| * kanzure nods | 16:47 | |
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| klafka | so kanzure you're very up on 3d printing huh? whatdo you think of the reprap v2 ? | 16:48 |
| kanzure | i'm not as up as i should be | 16:48 |
| kanzure | is that darwin or mendel | 16:48 |
| klafka | mendel i think | 16:48 |
| joshcryer | I like mendel because it can scale. | 16:49 |
| klafka | i heard it's a lot more rigid too | 16:49 |
| joshcryer | Add a bit more features to the thing and iterate it several times (say, 10), and it could build a car. | 16:49 |
| joshcryer | Yeah, I'm talking crazy talk, but I truly believe that. | 16:49 |
| klafka | can it still basically only make semi-soft plastic? | 16:50 |
| klafka | i want it to be able to make multi-colored things | 16:50 |
| joshcryer | Pretty much. | 16:50 |
| joshcryer | They haven't even gotten solder to work exceptionally well. | 16:51 |
| joshcryer | Basically I love the low center of mass that it has. | 16:51 |
| joshcryer | That's what professional CNC do. | 16:51 |
| klafka | aah | 16:51 |
| joshcryer | The base handles full y axis, the hanging bit is x, and of course z is up and down. | 16:51 |
| joshcryer | Ideally x and y would be fully on the base, but then you run in to geometry problems, so I think what they have is ideal. | 16:52 |
| klafka | aah | 16:52 |
| joshcryer | (since it's fully self-contained) | 16:52 |
| joshcryer | Sadly it's more metal than it is plastic. :) | 16:53 |
| joshcryer | So until it can make metal it ain't going to be terribly useful except to make trinkets and maybe a mug or two. | 16:53 |
| klafka | aah | 16:53 |
| klafka | yeah | 16:53 |
| klafka | well if i were to make one i'd probably use it to make music event decorations | 16:53 |
| klafka | but it would need to be able to do multi-colored plastic | 16:54 |
| joshcryer | That's why I give it ten iterations to live up to my overwhelming expectations. :D | 16:54 |
| klafka | heh | 16:54 |
| klafka | it may be worth doing in like 2-3 iterations for what i want | 16:55 |
| joshcryer | They had color examples but I'm not quite sure how they did them. | 16:55 |
| joshcryer | I think it required manually feeding at various steps in the printing process. | 16:55 |
| klafka | yeah | 16:55 |
| klafka | i could see that | 16:55 |
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| klafka | it'd be interesting to see generative 3d art using music as seeds and then printing them on a 3d printer | 16:56 |
| joshcryer | What'd be cool is a printhead that could take three colors of plastic feedstock and automatically combine them to make a few dozen or a few hundred different colors. | 16:56 |
| klafka | yep | 16:56 |
| joshcryer | (there are CNC machines that can do this) | 16:56 |
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| klafka | REALLY? | 16:56 |
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| klafka | it seems like CNC machines can offer a lot that 3d printers can't , but CNC machines aren't fully self-contained/automated, is that right? | 16:57 |
| joshcryer | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-JOJ91p9Wc | 16:59 |
| kanzure | klafka: no, cnc machines are usually fully automated | 16:59 |
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| joshcryer | Ahh, this may be a misunderstanding on my part. | 16:59 |
| kanzure | and many even have metal loading machines wired up to them in something called a cell | 16:59 |
| joshcryer | I kinda don't differentiate much between CNC and 3D printing. | 16:59 |
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| kanzure | you know, i think this calls for a link to my machine porn playlist | 16:59 |
| kanzure | klafka: http://www.youtube.com/user/kanzure#p/c/0EB93E6E02E5CF17 | 17:00 |
| joshcryer | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QP73uTJApw <- was what I was thinking of | 17:00 |
| joshcryer | kanzure :D | 17:00 |
| kanzure | like dis: http://www.youtube.com/user/kanzure#p/c/0EB93E6E02E5CF17/0/RnIvhlKT7SY | 17:00 |
| klafka | so what advantages does 3d printing have over cnc machines? | 17:00 |
| joshcryer | Do we have CNC that can do color printing? | 17:01 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: spray painting? :D | 17:01 |
| joshcryer | grr I shouldn't say 'printing' | 17:01 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, ahh, yes, that would work. | 17:01 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, or, possibly, colored plastics for things like gadget cases. | 17:01 |
| klafka | spray paint has different color/texture than polymer color | 17:01 |
| joshcryer | Agreed, my keyboard, for instance, isn't painted, I could crack it and the color (though distressed at the crack points) is the same throughout. | 17:04 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: whoops, sorry. it was one of my test cases for the dynamic setup. | 17:04 |
| joshcryer | So my idea is that you want a machine that can make itself first. | 17:07 |
| joshcryer | But you want physical tools that can be made by that machine which can then futher, make things more effectively. | 17:07 |
| joshcryer | So for instance, you have your magical machine that can make itself, and, with care, could make an engine for a car, it'd be better suited toward making another machine which makes car engines more effectively (be they combustion, electrical, etc). | 17:08 |
| kanzure | i think that a better place to start would be just defining those sets of tools that can make each other | 17:08 |
| kanzure | and then you can systematically size it down into a single machine | 17:08 |
| joshcryer | The car making engine machine could be designed by tools which allow you to take their constituant parts and mass manufacture them using geometric techniques. | 17:09 |
| joshcryer | This way you could design a chair making machine just as easily. | 17:09 |
| joshcryer | Or a bottle making machine or a toy robot dog making machine. | 17:09 |
| joshcryer | Eh, I think 90% of this is software. | 17:09 |
| kanzure | sure, absolutely.. that's what skdb is about :P | 17:10 |
| joshcryer | 10% is just chemistry and physics. :D | 17:10 |
| klafka | CORNUCOPIA DEVICE | 17:11 |
| klafka | i think at this point it should be focused on a machine being able to make and use multiple types of materials | 17:11 |
| kanzure | "it should be" what is it=? | 17:11 |
| klafka | idk | 17:12 |
| kanzure | i don't know what you are talking about | 17:12 |
| kanzure | anyway, this channel originally started as a strategic plan for designing and then building a kinematic self-replicating machine | 17:12 |
| joshcryer | I believe the word following the quoted text indicates context. | 17:12 |
| joshcryer | If clumsily. | 17:12 |
| joshcryer | Understood, kanzure. | 17:12 |
| klafka | i thought we were still talking about well "3d printers" or self-replicating machines | 17:12 |
| kanzure | huh? no i'm just giving some history | 17:12 |
| kanzure | 3d printers != self-replicating machines | 17:13 |
| joshcryer | Just musing a thought I had with regards to the software behind a machine like this. | 17:13 |
| klafka | well they are aiming to be that kanzure | 17:13 |
| kanzure | and don't give me that "it can print its own plastic parts" crap | 17:13 |
| kanzure | klafka: they are liers | 17:13 |
| klafka | right | 17:13 |
| kanzure | liars | 17:13 |
| joshcryer | Shh, shh. | 17:13 |
| kanzure | do you remember the article in the new york times about how the reprap can self-replicate? | 17:13 |
| joshcryer | We had this discussion. | 17:13 |
| klafka | kanzure what i mean is, the goal of 3d printing or those hobbyists is to be able to do that | 17:13 |
| joshcryer | 5 years ago. | 17:13 |
| joshcryer | About RepRap. | 17:13 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: yeah but nothing has fraken changed | 17:13 |
| joshcryer | Don't be terribly militant about it, friend. | 17:13 |
| kanzure | sebastien is | 17:13 |
| kanzure | :( | 17:13 |
| klafka | but a major problem with 3d printing doing this, is like joshcryer said, it can't even freaking solder | 17:14 |
| kanzure | anyway.. i'm glad you agree that software can help the design front of such a thing | 17:14 |
| joshcryer | I'm going to make the thing make itself, if it kills me. :) | 17:14 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: why are you so attached to insisting on reprap as a self-replicating machine though? | 17:14 |
| klafka | fuck reprap make something else that's better that can do this | 17:14 |
| kanzure | i mean, you should be focusing on a kinematic self-replicating machine no matter what the substrate is | 17:14 |
| joshcryer | I don't think I said that. | 17:14 |
| joshcryer | I said it could be, man. | 17:14 |
| joshcryer | In 10 iterations. | 17:14 |
| joshcryer | That's a lot of versions. | 17:14 |
| kanzure | "I'm going to make the thing make itself" sorry it sounds like you're talking about reprap here | 17:14 |
| joshcryer | I'll be helping by version 3. | 17:15 |
| klafka | kanzure but atm the substrates it can work with are the major limiting factor | 17:15 |
| kanzure | klafka: the reprap? sure | 17:15 |
| joshcryer | If their goals aren't ultimately to make the thing make itself entirely (which is absolutely not the rheotric I get by the top guys in that project) then I'd have to join someone else. | 17:15 |
| kanzure | i just mean that a self-replicating machine doesn't have to be hacked on top of a 3D printer / rapid prototyping platform | 17:15 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: that's just rhetoric. they don't really have a design strategy or proof of replication.. sorry :-/ | 17:15 |
| kanzure | btw didn't you say something about you reading the AASM study recently? | 17:16 |
| kanzure | i forget | 17:16 |
| klafka | kanzure atm how do you think that self-replicating machines should proceed then? | 17:16 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, then I'm gunna have to start from scratch. | 17:16 |
| kanzure | klafka: manufacturing processes that are defined in at least some way | 17:16 |
| kanzure | and then looking at what sort of cycles you can find in a graph | 17:16 |
| joshcryer | Who else comes close to doing what we want? | 17:16 |
| kanzure | i.e. process X can be used to make the machine for process B, which makes the parts for process X | 17:16 |
| joshcryer | Don't say SKDB. | 17:16 |
| kanzure | skdb isn't a machine | 17:16 |
| kanzure | klafka: did that make sense? | 17:17 |
| kanzure | if on average adding one new manufacturing process to the set requires (on average) at least one new part/process, then you have an unbounded series and you're screwed :P | 17:18 |
| joshcryer | Nah, because the machine itself has a limited amount of processes necessary to make it. | 17:19 |
| kanzure | it might turn out that the first kinematic self-replicating process that we come across happens to use 3D printers or something | 17:19 |
| klafka | mm so you're more interested in the process as opposed to the device | 17:19 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: that's true, but if you need part Y, which requires tool Z, tool Z might require things that might not be present in the system yet, etc. | 17:20 |
| klafka | see i see self-replication as a side-utility | 17:20 |
| klafka | i mean at least on a macro scale | 17:20 |
| kanzure | side-utility of what | 17:20 |
| kanzure | in the case of building something that can be kinematically self-replicating it doesn't have to be a single machine, although ultimately that is a nice goal of course | 17:20 |
| klafka | of a i guess rapid prototyping device, unless it's a self-replicating configuring kinematic device | 17:20 |
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| klafka | so you can make it do something useful other than just replicate itself | 17:20 |
| kanzure | i mean, once you get kinematic self-replication going, you can reduce the geometry and size and integrate the processes/machines together anyway | 17:20 |
| klafka | mmm | 17:21 |
| klafka | good point | 17:21 |
| joshcryer | klafka, self-replication, total replication (to let kanzure know that I know what that means) is a very very very important goal. | 17:21 |
| kanzure | i was kind of sad when i learned why fablabs will never be interested in self-replication | 17:21 |
| kanzure | like how they refuse to build their own tools for the next fablab being built or whatever | 17:21 |
| kanzure | (it has to do with grants and spending money i guess?) | 17:21 |
| joshcryer | I've been out of the RepRap loop but that one guy indicated to me that was their goal. | 17:21 |
| joshcryer | I forgot his name. | 17:21 |
| joshcryer | Andrew or something, let me look. | 17:21 |
| kanzure | but overall the concept is at least nice :P of a hackerspace building the tools necessary to build another hackerspace | 17:21 |
| kanzure | andrew plumb | 17:22 |
| kanzure | andrew back | 17:22 |
| kanzure | unless you mean adrian.. | 17:22 |
| kanzure | anyway, they *claim* that is their goal, but if it was, why are they so obsessed with hacking crap on to a 3D printer? | 17:22 |
| joshcryer | Not Andrew, Adrian Bowyer. | 17:23 |
| kanzure | i'm not convinced that "going down a rabbit hole and praying it will work out in the end" is a good strategy | 17:23 |
| joshcryer | Yes, I admit, it is disappointing that 80% of Mendal is a list to sites to buy its components. | 17:23 |
| kanzure | not only that, i'm so unconvinced that i have an alternative (via skdb) that happens to also be useful in general to people making repraps/makerbots anyway :P | 17:24 |
| kanzure | i.e. apt-get for hardware | 17:24 |
| kanzure | and all that conceptual stuff. | 17:24 |
| joshcryer | http://www.foresight.org/gadaprize.php | 17:25 |
| joshcryer | OK I see what you mean. | 17:25 |
| joshcryer | The grand prize for this is to make it "replicate faster." | 17:25 |
| klafka | joshcryer, i agree it's a very very important goal, but it seems almost like it would come as a side effect of increasing the ability of what a replicating machine can do | 17:25 |
| joshcryer | Not to "make it replicate actually." | 17:25 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: so did i tell you how they are transfering the management of the gada prize over to me? | 17:26 |
| kanzure | i guess that's a kinda important thing to bring up | 17:26 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, no I just realized that this is happening. | 17:26 |
| joshcryer | As I said I've been out of the loop. | 17:26 |
| joshcryer | I've been super low bandwidth for a year. | 17:26 |
| kanzure | well gada prize stuff hasn't been "in the loop" to be honest | 17:26 |
| joshcryer | Information overload is very bad for me. | 17:26 |
| kanzure | and fixing that is one of my goals at least | 17:26 |
| kanzure | i mean, gada prize has been kind of "separated" and "isolated" from community happenings | 17:26 |
| kanzure | so at the very least i'll be an interface or something | 17:27 |
| kanzure | klafka: in general i agree that adding capabilities to tools is important and useful. | 17:27 |
| joshcryer | Ugh, Gada Grand Personal Manufacturing prize. | 17:28 |
| joshcryer | It's so loaded. | 17:28 |
| joshcryer | Simple economics makes it winnable with *no innovation* in a few years. | 17:28 |
| joshcryer | That's obscene. | 17:28 |
| joshcryer | Whoever thought that up should lose their position. | 17:29 |
| kanzure | :) | 17:29 |
| kanzure | so .. i'll be able to fix this stuff | 17:29 |
| joshcryer | Make it so that it doesn't have any monetary attachment at all. | 17:29 |
| joshcryer | Require at *least* 50% structural replication and 25% electronic replication. | 17:29 |
| kanzure | another important thing i need to do is increase publicity of the fact that the $80k technically doesn't actually exist | 17:30 |
| kanzure | the other prize money does though ($17,500) | 17:30 |
| joshcryer | So you are in charge of the Gada Prize now? | 17:31 |
| kanzure | it's not quite official yet | 17:31 |
| kanzure | paperwork still flying aruond | 17:32 |
| kanzure | *around | 17:32 |
| joshcryer | Oh cool, I have inside info. | 17:32 |
| joshcryer | It's nice to know you and Trent. | 17:32 |
| joshcryer | ;P | 17:32 |
| kanzure | heh | 17:32 |
| kanzure | what i don't understand is why gada chose foresight institute | 17:33 |
| kanzure | i mean, i like the foresight institute | 17:33 |
| kanzure | but it's not the first thing that pops into my mind when i think "where do i put reprap prizes" | 17:33 |
| joshcryer | Sadly, I think that monetary incentive will not produce significant innovation, since any rules to coerce innovation out of the developers will require more effort than it's worth. | 17:33 |
| kanzure | there's some tricks up my sleeves | 17:34 |
| kanzure | but in general i agree, this isn't going to be something mindblowing | 17:34 |
| kanzure | but on the other hand, encouraging competition between the 10 teams in existence or something | 17:34 |
| kanzure | would be hawt | 17:34 |
| kanzure | even if the final result is "we've built something that everyone knew is possible and isn't actually, truly innovative, but it's still completely awesome and important that we've done this work" | 17:34 |
| joshcryer | The gnusha.org people? | 17:34 |
| joshcryer | (I know that's you, but the list of projects there) | 17:35 |
| kanzure | wait, what? | 17:35 |
| kanzure | what about the gnusha.org people? i think i missed something | 17:35 |
| joshcryer | The "ten teams in existence." | 17:35 |
| joshcryer | I am not clear on what ten teams you're talking about. | 17:35 |
| kanzure | they are listed on the reprap.org wiki or something | 17:35 |
| joshcryer | Ahh | 17:35 |
| kanzure | there's a list somewhere | 17:35 |
| kanzure | sebastien has been trying to impose rules on the | 17:35 |
| kanzure | *on them | 17:35 |
| kanzure | "you must reveal everything to me" | 17:36 |
| joshcryer | I thought you meant 10 competing or distinct projects. | 17:36 |
| kanzure | that'd be nice too but it was my understanding that in prize systems the idea is to get some teams competing for the prize money | 17:36 |
| joshcryer | They've turned into a dirty bureaucracy now? | 17:37 |
| joshcryer | :P | 17:37 |
| kanzure | something like that, we'll see | 17:37 |
| kanzure | increasing the communication between the management of the prize and the participants can't be that bad :) | 17:37 |
| joshcryer | I can't find the "reveal everything to me" clause. | 17:39 |
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| kanzure | it's just his behavior that i noticed on a few occassions, it's not a big deal | 17:39 |
| joshcryer | http://reprap.org/wiki/Full_Documentation <- that? | 17:40 |
| kanzure | no that seems to be for the reprap.org wiki in general | 17:40 |
| joshcryer | In any event, I can't find any open CPU projects. | 17:42 |
| kanzure | have you checked the opencores site? | 17:42 |
| kanzure | or is that not what you want | 17:42 |
| joshcryer | I mean, I see lots of people *designing* CPUs (such as on OpenCores), but not actual *fabrication*. | 17:42 |
| kanzure | oh | 17:42 |
| kanzure | probably because they just use FPGAs in the end :P | 17:42 |
| kanzure | but yeah, uhh. hrm. | 17:42 |
| kanzure | wolfspraul: hey, are you around? | 17:43 |
| joshcryer | I think in principle we could do our own 120nm CPU. | 17:43 |
| kanzure | wolfspraul: maybe you have some insight into this | 17:43 |
| joshcryer | Or 180nm or whatever the old 8088s were. | 17:43 |
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| kanzure | hi JayDugger | 17:43 |
| JayDugger | Good evening, everyone. | 17:44 |
| JayDugger | Still working on my second cup of coffee, so don't expect much. | 17:44 |
| JayDugger | Though I _will_ take more care to correctly focus windows before typing passwords. | 17:44 |
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| joshcryer | Ahh, you typed it, eh? | 17:46 |
| joshcryer | You're forgiven then. ;) | 17:46 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, and swore at the input field for not correctly showing what I'd touch-typed. | 17:47 |
| JayDugger | As ever, the machinery lies at fault first. | 17:47 |
| wolfspraul | kanzure: yes, here | 17:48 |
| kanzure | wolfspraul: any open source CPU design projects that also do the fabrication of their designs? | 17:49 |
| wolfspraul | I'm not aware of one | 17:50 |
| wolfspraul | I mean the Sun T1 etc. was manufactured, right? | 17:50 |
| joshcryer | PCBs, resistors, capacitors, transformers, resonators, transducors, etc are all stuff in principle I can get my head around and make. | 17:50 |
| wolfspraul | but the manufacturing process was not documented afaik, at least there was no gain of freedom or knowledge after it. | 17:50 |
| joshcryer | But a CPU is like a whole other entity. | 17:50 |
| wolfspraul | joshcryer: why that? | 17:51 |
| joshcryer | I can understand CPU *design* and *logic* but not how to actually lay out the transistors on a die. | 17:51 |
| joshcryer | Are there at least some books on the process in principle? | 17:52 |
| kanzure | oh, absolutely | 17:52 |
| kanzure | tons | 17:52 |
| joshcryer | Because it seems like to me everything is locked up in manufacture secrets. | 17:52 |
| kanzure | and not only that but the original way to manufacture these was wax + horse tail hairs or something :P | 17:52 |
| kanzure | there's quite a lot locked up, sure, but geometry and layout optimization and netlist stuff is common iirc | 17:53 |
| wolfspraul | I am also still learning, but in the end ICs are also just a fabrication process. Sure some equipment can be expensive, or rare, but if you want to start with ICs you should start with older processes | 17:53 |
| joshcryer | Yeah | 17:53 |
| joshcryer | I originally mentioned the 8088, or you could do the 8086 (own design of course I'm talking about the manuf. tech) | 17:53 |
| wolfspraul | joshcryer: it's locked up because nobody documents what they do, so over time the level of uncertainty over what is really going on inside the magic fab increases. | 17:53 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, oh I bet the companies have the design schematics somewhere, the fab processes, somewhere. | 17:54 |
| wolfspraul | but I can assure you - it's not magic :-) (even though I also have not been able to go inside the latest fabs, of course) | 17:54 |
| joshcryer | Boxed in some locker somewhere. | 17:54 |
| wolfspraul | yes but we can pull it out | 17:54 |
| wolfspraul | we just have to start | 17:54 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, so are you at liberty to talk about the chemical processes? | 17:54 |
| wolfspraul | and we shouldn't do like OGD1 did as in "once we have 2 million USD we start" and then of course it never gets there | 17:54 |
| wolfspraul | we should start with small ICs | 17:55 |
| wolfspraul | 500nm process | 17:55 |
| joshcryer | Absolutely. | 17:55 |
| wolfspraul | I just need to find a really good application then I will just do it. | 17:55 |
| joshcryer | Do you have any material that tells you how to do it? | 17:55 |
| wolfspraul | joshcryer: liberty? I am lacking the knowledge ;-) so I have the liberty, but my brain still can't :-) | 17:55 |
| wolfspraul | I am a software engineer turned manufacturing guy over the last 3-5 years. | 17:55 |
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| kanzure | wolfspraul: maybe you should drop some links to qi hardware | 17:56 |
| wolfspraul | joshcryer: last I did was to visit the IC design center at the university of Xi'An in China | 17:56 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, well, I wouldn't want you to get in trouble though I'd encourage you to completely ignore any perpetual NDAs you may have signed in the past. | 17:56 |
| wolfspraul | nice people there, I spent about 2 days there and learnt a lot | 17:56 |
| wolfspraul | I have some crazy notes somewhere, of limited value maybe because I never cleaned them up but still, ... one sec... | 17:57 |
| joshcryer | Ahhhh | 17:57 |
| wolfspraul | I am not signing NDAs, or let's say very hard to get me to sign one. | 17:57 |
| joshcryer | I'd completely overlooked that schools do that sort of thing. | 17:57 |
| JayDugger | Good man! | 17:57 |
| wolfspraul | schools? | 17:57 |
| JayDugger | NDAs. | 17:57 |
| joshcryer | Universities. | 17:57 |
| joshcryer | No, no, that schoools had IC fabs. | 17:58 |
| wolfspraul | yes sure but they are pretty independent, like a business | 17:58 |
| wolfspraul | we can work with them, but of course have to pay | 17:58 |
| joshcryer | I'm not interested in having them make a CPU I designed. | 17:58 |
| joshcryer | Though I'd be happy to do that if I could learn how the *process* actually *works.* :) | 17:58 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: local community colleges usually have small IC fabs too.. | 17:58 |
| panax | designing ICs is so time consuming its so much faster on an fpga where you can just program it... | 17:58 |
| joshcryer | I know that they use some type of lithography. | 17:58 |
| joshcryer | panax, we still need to know how to *fabricate* the FPGA... | 17:59 |
| panax | lithography... | 17:59 |
| joshcryer | photo-lithography? | 17:59 |
| panax | lots of books out there on vlsi and on fabrication | 17:59 |
| panax | yeah | 17:59 |
| joshcryer | Let me look up the terms. | 17:59 |
| joshcryer | panax, any recommendations? | 17:59 |
| wolfspraul | joshcryer: don't worry, of course not. once you are the customer all documentation is yours. or at least if that's not the case you won't become the customer. | 18:00 |
| wolfspraul | gate designs may be owned by fabs btw, that's another story | 18:00 |
| wolfspraul | but that's what we need to dig into | 18:00 |
| panax | if you want to design ICs you can use cadence which is proprietary and expensive but i use this open source software which is decent http://opencircuitdesign.com/magic/ | 18:01 |
| wolfspraul | below 500nm the fabs may own some IP that they are not willing to open up for a customer. unless the customer buys the whole fab that is :-) | 18:01 |
| wolfspraul | once someone invests money of course they want to make that back, understandably | 18:01 |
| panax | like im using it right now designing a chip with a 0.5 um process | 18:01 |
| wolfspraul | the lower you go the more people invest, and the more 'closed' it gets | 18:01 |
| panax | and really all you need to know are the design rules- minimum dimensions of things which you can find in tables | 18:01 |
| joshcryer | panax, I played with a VLSI thing before, I'm not particularly interested in it, I'm more interested in the manufacturing / fabbing process. | 18:02 |
| panax | http://www.mosis.com/support/text-books.html | 18:02 |
| panax | i had a fab class the book we used was introduction to microelectronic fabrication by jaeger | 18:02 |
| panax | it was ok not great | 18:02 |
| joshcryer | I think this might be good: http://hotfile.com/dl/3892912/fa840bc/Semiconductor_Device_Fundamentals_2nd.book.rar.html | 18:03 |
| panax | there was a better one im trying to remember the name... | 18:03 |
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| kanzure | for the record, netlists and vlsi design issues are of great interest to me :) but also the manufacturing | 18:03 |
| joshcryer | (fyi if I post a link in here I make no allusions to its legality in your country) | 18:03 |
| panax | Silicon VLSI Technology by Plummer is pretty good | 18:03 |
| wolfspraul | joshcryer: for the free fpga, we need to manufacture free ASICs first, FPGAs come next evolutionary | 18:03 |
| kanzure | wolfspraul: are you looking into making ASICs? if so, anything in particular? | 18:04 |
| panax | and for small projects most ppl use mosis | 18:04 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, I'm fine with that, definitely, I made little proggies in 8086 assembly language when it was cool | 18:04 |
| joshcryer | (early 90s) | 18:04 |
| wolfspraul | yes sure | 18:05 |
| joshcryer | Can we make it big endian though. | 18:05 |
| joshcryer | :D | 18:05 |
| wolfspraul | my main thing is a copyleft hardware project called Qi hardware (#qi-hardware on freenode) | 18:05 |
| wolfspraul | everybody interested in free IC production very very welcome to join there | 18:06 |
| wolfspraul | so we are working on a bunch of things. what we are selling right now is a very humble product (ahem), a little dictionary-like pocket computer with a proprietary CPU :-) | 18:06 |
| wolfspraul | long way... | 18:06 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, you have this project already. Nice. | 18:06 |
| wolfspraul | then we are working on a free IC design named Milkymist | 18:06 |
| wolfspraul | and of course a real board for it called Milkymist One | 18:07 |
| wolfspraul | http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One | 18:07 |
| wolfspraul | Milkymist is a GPL licensed IC design (in Verilog mostly I think) around the LatticeMico32 core | 18:08 |
| joshcryer | Who's fabbing it? | 18:08 |
| wolfspraul | fabbing what? the IC, Spartan-6, is fabbed by Xilinx/Samsung | 18:08 |
| wolfspraul | 45nm process | 18:08 |
| wolfspraul | he he. I wish that would be ours :-) | 18:08 |
| wolfspraul | the rest is 'fabbed' by my small Hong Kong copyleft hardware manufacturing company called Sharism | 18:09 |
| wolfspraul | of course everything we do is freely documented, check that Milkymist_One URL | 18:10 |
| joshcryer | :O | 18:10 |
| joshcryer | http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_SMT/DIP_Process_Flow | 18:10 |
| wolfspraul | unfortunately the design itself was done in Altium (though the files are released), we are attempting to do it all in KiCad now | 18:10 |
| wolfspraul | yes, all there. gerbers, drill files, stencils, ai files, impedance reports, etc. | 18:10 |
| joshcryer | How many users you have atm? | 18:11 |
| joshcryer | (don't want to do a hit and run in your channel) | 18:11 |
| wolfspraul | don't understand | 18:11 |
| wolfspraul | users? | 18:11 |
| wolfspraul | hit and run? | 18:11 |
| joshcryer | in your channel | 18:11 |
| wolfspraul | 40 maybe | 18:11 |
| wolfspraul | there are two channels | 18:11 |
| joshcryer | hit and run = /join #chan /part #chan | 18:11 |
| wolfspraul | #milkymist is the IC design projet | 18:11 |
| wolfspraul | project | 18:11 |
| wolfspraul | maybe about 20 there | 18:11 |
| wolfspraul | #qi-hardware is the copyleft hardware project, there are several copyleft activities there, maybe 40 | 18:12 |
| wolfspraul | #qi-hardware is logged, see http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs | 18:12 |
| joshcryer | <3 thanks wolfspraul | 18:14 |
| joshcryer | I will lurk in there (I have a small 'server' that is on 24/7) | 18:15 |
| wolfspraul | joshcryer: here are my embarassingly messy notes from Xi'An http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/ASIC_production_notes | 18:15 |
| wolfspraul | yes please of course | 18:15 |
| joshcryer | I don't like to lurk in smaller channels because I don't want to be a "community builder" (had some bad community building efforts on freenode, don't want to do it again) | 18:15 |
| wolfspraul | I am very very interested in IC manufacturing | 18:15 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, awesome, so am I. | 18:15 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, here's one for you... | 18:15 |
| wolfspraul | so like I said, here are my current beliefs, or what I think I learnt: | 18:16 |
| wolfspraul | free ASIC comes before free FPGA | 18:16 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, what do you think of ternary computing, ie, making a ternary CPU? | 18:16 |
| wolfspraul | first time I hear that term :-) | 18:16 |
| joshcryer | -1, 0, +1 states | 18:16 |
| wolfspraul | another reason why I love what I am doing - always be inspired and learn amazing things from others! | 18:16 |
| wolfspraul | yes I will check it, thanks for bringing it up | 18:16 |
| wolfspraul | one sec let me just tell you my current thinking | 18:16 |
| wolfspraul | so free ASIC first | 18:17 |
| kanzure | wolfspraul: please go on about free asic first- what's next? or how do we get there | 18:17 |
| wolfspraul | some people think reverse engineering Xilinx bitstream format is the way to go | 18:17 |
| panax | id like a probability based cpu more | 18:17 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, please by all means. | 18:17 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, I agree with you so far. | 18:17 |
| wolfspraul | I think that's a great hacking project, but independent of a manufacturing process. | 18:17 |
| JayDugger | What good does that reverse-engineering do? | 18:17 |
| wolfspraul | well it's all knowledge that at some point needs to be in the open | 18:17 |
| wolfspraul | so then, for ASIC, I think I want to make a small IC first, 5k gates, 10k gates, something like that | 18:18 |
| kanzure | what's the xilinx bistream format? i haven't heard of it | 18:18 |
| wolfspraul | digital before analog | 18:18 |
| kanzure | yeah, a small ASIC sounds like a good idea | 18:18 |
| kanzure | a pgp asic maybe? | 18:18 |
| wolfspraul | maybe 500nm process, is a good compromise between performance and how hard it is to get our partners to open up everything for us as we manufacture | 18:18 |
| wolfspraul | yes sure, could be anything | 18:19 |
| wolfspraul | so that's the next problem - which ASIC? which opportunity? | 18:19 |
| wolfspraul | I dont' like to waste money. that's why I do this whole NanoNote thing. | 18:19 |
| wolfspraul | I need a platform and a reason to add my own small IC :-) | 18:19 |
| wolfspraul | I sold about 900 Ben NanoNote since it was launched in February until today. | 18:19 |
| JayDugger | Really? | 18:19 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, congrats. | 18:20 |
| wolfspraul | will continue to sell that thing, and continue to open up the technology. | 18:20 |
| JayDugger | Any stand out user applications? | 18:20 |
| * joshcryer afks for a few moments | 18:20 | |
| wolfspraul | ah well, of course it's loosing money everywhere. | 18:20 |
| wolfspraul | JayDugger: vi :-) | 18:20 |
| wolfspraul | here's a good review that was written recently http://thebeezspeaks.blogspot.com/2010/08/pure-fun-but-not-for-faint-hearted.html | 18:20 |
| wolfspraul | so anyway, it's called 'Ben' NanoNote | 18:21 |
| wolfspraul | the plan is to have a series - Ben, Ya, Mu, Guo | 18:21 |
| wolfspraul | root, branch, sprout, flower - something like that | 18:21 |
| wolfspraul | so I could make a small IC that I add to the Ya NanoNote | 18:21 |
| wolfspraul | (I just explain my background and thinking now) | 18:22 |
| JayDugger | http://projects.qi-hardware.com/ | 18:22 |
| JayDugger | Right. I'll listen. | 18:22 |
| wolfspraul | in parallel I support projects like Milkymist One (big fat proprietary FPGA running GPL licensed SoC) and Milkymist-derivatives like the Xue camera (adding a CMOS image sensor) | 18:22 |
| wolfspraul | so there could also be an opportunity for a small IC in the Xue camera | 18:29 |
| wolfspraul | of course I am very eager to go into analog/RF ICs, but everybody is telling me to get my fingers burnt with digital first :-) | 18:30 |
| wolfspraul | so I will obey... | 18:30 |
| panax | digital isnt hard you just have to deal with so many more gates and components | 18:36 |
| wolfspraul | I think we need to be smart in mixing and matching free and proprietary stuff for a while. | 18:37 |
| JayDugger | What do you mean, "smart?" | 18:37 |
| wolfspraul | if we go 100% free, then any device we build, especially mobile devices which is where I come from, will have a distinct 60's feel to them :-)0000000 | 18:38 |
| wolfspraul | smart means sometimes picking proprietary ICs to combine with some free stuff we are able to do, and sometimes not | 18:38 |
| wolfspraul | the exact criteria are hard to define and to communicate | 18:38 |
| JayDugger | Sure. But you mean technical, not legal, criteria? | 18:39 |
| wolfspraul | on the surface the two extremes are easy, say on the proprietary side something like an iphone :-) | 18:39 |
| wolfspraul | on the extreme free side there are some cool projects too, like this GPS receiver http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/navsats/gps1.jpg | 18:41 |
| wolfspraul | http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/navsats/theory.html | 18:41 |
| wolfspraul | but like I said, if you compare that thing to a Garmin or so, oh well. no hiking anymore... so we need to find a middle way to open it up while still having usable products in the meantime (while we are on our journey). | 18:42 |
| wolfspraul | at least that's what I think | 18:42 |
| wolfspraul | JayDugger: legal... don't know. what is smart in legal? Yes I mean technical, I'm a technical guy. I live in China but I don't mean finding a backdoor into a fab so they make a few extra wafers with some films they have around overnight... | 18:43 |
| JayDugger | I meant intellectual property more than "borrowing" manufacturing tools. That the phrase "legal" applies to both reinforces your point, "what is smart in legal." | 18:45 |
| JayDugger | Terms too broad in scope help discussion only a little. | 18:45 |
| JayDugger | That's a neat amateur receiver, if it picks up multiple constellations. | 18:46 |
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| joshcryer | wolfspraul, trinary computing: http://web.archive.org/web/20030202161729/http://www.trinary.cc/ | 18:50 |
| wolfspraul | JayDugger: I respect IP, I work along the lines of the GPL/CC-BY/CC-BY-SA licenses in copyright law. I would not ingringe on other people's trademarks. I try to stay away from the patent mess as much as possible, meaning that I don't patent anything myself, don't join any defense pools, and remove patented technologies once it becomes clear what exactly is being enforced (for example: mp3, mpeg4, etc) | 18:53 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, really good article on the elegance of trits: http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/third-base/6 | 18:53 |
| joshcryer | Oops, that should be: http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/third-base/1 | 18:53 |
| joshcryer | My goal would be to fab my own resistors, capacitors, FCBs, one thing at a time though. | 18:55 |
| wolfspraul | good | 18:55 |
| wolfspraul | document lavishly :-) | 18:55 |
| wolfspraul | where can we follow your progress? | 18:56 |
| joshcryer | I wouldn't know about patents though, I'd just do what I know. | 18:56 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, haven't started yet, but I'll have a site for sure. | 18:56 |
| wolfspraul | do you have a blog? | 18:56 |
| wolfspraul | please let me know once you have it, if you have an RSS feed I'd like to add it to our copyleft hardware planet, for example | 18:56 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, right now I am trying to compile information to get started with. | 18:56 |
| wolfspraul | what is 'FCB' btw? | 18:56 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, absolutely, I'll let this channel know of anything I come up with. | 18:56 |
| joshcryer | My bad | 18:57 |
| wolfspraul | we are back in #hplusroadmap, announce it in #qi-hardware as well | 18:57 |
| joshcryer | PCB, printed circuit board | 18:57 |
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| joshcryer | (yeah I know I'm in #hplusroadmap, I wanted to show you that 3 bit computer idea) | 18:58 |
| joshcryer | Do you think a 3 bit computer is feasible? | 18:58 |
| joshcryer | that is, transistor states of -1, 0 (for small values of 0 of course) and +1. | 18:58 |
| wolfspraul | it's probably too experimental for me. I already work on 20 fronts, everyone I can kick out is great for me. | 18:58 |
| wolfspraul | I don't know. | 18:58 |
| joshcryer | Haha, I'm the same way. | 18:58 |
| joshcryer | I can't collaborate with too many people. | 18:58 |
| joshcryer | Have so many people wanting me to join their (non-fab related) projects. | 18:58 |
| joshcryer | Gamedev guys, mostly. | 18:59 |
| wolfspraul | one feedback from me - the list of things you want to manufacture seems a bit random | 18:59 |
| wolfspraul | I really suggest you focus along the lines of some end result you are going to. | 18:59 |
| wolfspraul | of course you can etch your own PCBs, or drill them. | 19:00 |
| joshcryer | Yeah, PCBs are probably the easiest thing on the list. | 19:00 |
| wolfspraul | and it may be a big advantage in some cases, very fast turnaround | 19:00 |
| wolfspraul | for example to finetune PCB antenna designs | 19:00 |
| joshcryer | But eventually I want to be able to make my own 100% free hardware computer. | 19:00 |
| joshcryer | (I call it free hardware as in the Moglen inspired, free software inspired concept, not necessarily monetarily free, but maybe one day.) | 19:01 |
| wolfspraul | yes OK, but my point is this: there are thousands of companies working together on this. | 19:01 |
| wolfspraul | with millions of people | 19:01 |
| wolfspraul | your life is too short to dig all this up and reformat it in a way that you are comfortable with | 19:01 |
| joshcryer | Very true. | 19:01 |
| JayDugger | joshcryer: This Moglen? http://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox | 19:01 |
| joshcryer | That's where collaborators hopefully come in. | 19:01 |
| wolfspraul | I live in China, I have seen and worked with endless manufacturers already. | 19:01 |
| joshcryer | JayDugger, that Moglen! | 19:01 |
| wolfspraul | and there is an infinite amount more still involved. I know nothing! | 19:01 |
| wolfspraul | the freedom box is a joke, really | 19:02 |
| wolfspraul | freedom box built on Marvell technology, ha ha | 19:02 |
| joshcryer | JayDugger, check out his speeches on wikisource, he's great (I think he is the forefront of the freedom movement, even above Stallman, who hasn't had any good ideas in ages). | 19:02 |
| wolfspraul | I actually went to Marvell HQ, had to click-through pages of whatnot to even enter the building | 19:02 |
| wolfspraul | so I guess I'm not allowed to say here what they told me there | 19:03 |
| wolfspraul | :-) | 19:03 |
| JayDugger | I get it. You mean they work farther up the "Vertical Freedom Stack?" | 19:03 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, well, Moglen is surrounded by software guys, so they want something working asap as opposed to a ground up reinvention of the wheel. | 19:03 |
| JayDugger | They==the FreedomBox? | 19:03 |
| joshcryer | Since frankly I think a lot of the information we need is too tied up in proprietary technology. | 19:03 |
| wolfspraul | please guys - a freedom box with marvell technology is like Gandhi buying some AK47 | 19:03 |
| JayDugger | A house built on sand, perhaps, but once you've the software part running, what's to stop a later switch to open hardware? | 19:04 |
| joshcryer | wolfspraul, like I said, they're software guys, they believe if they can run their software on some hardware, freely, then they've won. | 19:04 |
| wolfspraul | nothing, you are entirely true. but you better always keep that distinction in mind, crystal clear | 19:05 |
| joshcryer | Absolutely. | 19:05 |
| JayDugger | Do you expect some hardware lock-in effect, or simply point out the inconsistency? | 19:05 |
| joshcryer | And Moglen has never explicitly made the leap toward free hardware. | 19:05 |
| joshcryer | It's open hardware. | 19:05 |
| joshcryer | (distinction) | 19:05 |
| wolfspraul | what we call 'hardware' has dramatically changed over the last 30 years | 19:05 |
| joshcryer | But the implication is there (I know kanzure hates my inferences). | 19:05 |
| wolfspraul | you can get in a 8x8mm package today what no supercomputer could have given you in the early 80s | 19:05 |
| JayDugger | Tell me about it. I work with 30 year-old hardware and 3-month-old hardware. | 19:05 |
| wolfspraul | most so called 'hardware companies' have become 'fabless semiconductors' right? | 19:06 |
| wolfspraul | what do you think a 'fabless' (!) semiconductor is? :-) | 19:06 |
| joshcryer | What does that mean? | 19:06 |
| joshcryer | They outsource its manufacture? | 19:06 |
| wolfspraul | yes | 19:07 |
| joshcryer | No offense but isn't that what you're doing? | 19:07 |
| wolfspraul | and it brings the hardware company much closer to a software company | 19:07 |
| wolfspraul | I'm not there yet. Maybe you misunderstand me, there is nothing wrong with it. | 19:07 |
| wolfspraul | from the perspective of TI, Marvell, etc. the whole free software world is a temporary smaller issue. | 19:08 |
| joshcryer | Well if you wanted to you could hit up the FreedomBox guys and tell them you have hardware you're developing for it to run on. | 19:08 |
| wolfspraul | they mostly like it because it helps them put some of their partners under margin pressure | 19:08 |
| joshcryer | That's publicity for you even if you don't come into the picture for 3-4 revisions. | 19:08 |
| wolfspraul | they wouldn't care | 19:08 |
| wolfspraul | because yes they are all software people, and they accept any hardware black-boxing without asking many questions | 19:09 |
| wolfspraul | the project will fail on the freedom side anyway | 19:09 |
| joshcryer | I don't think that's fair to their project. | 19:09 |
| wolfspraul | just need to wait :-) or talk to Marvell, he he | 19:09 |
| joshcryer | I mean, there are much more interesting things to bash their technology over. >:P | 19:09 |
| wolfspraul | well let's just wait. I've done my work, and came to my conclusions. No house can be built on quicksand. | 19:12 |
| wolfspraul | it's a noble project, for sure | 19:12 |
| wolfspraul | (on Moglen's side) | 19:12 |
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| any30949605 | er,,, a houseboat could be | 19:15 |
| joshcryer | any30949605, what? | 19:15 |
| joshcryer | Hi | 19:15 |
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| any30949605 | [21:12] <wolfspraul> well let's just wait. I've done my work, and came to my conclusions. No house can be built on quicksand. | 19:17 |
| -!- any30949605 is now known as katsmeow | 19:17 | |
| joshcryer | Ahh | 19:17 |
| joshcryer | That depends on the nature of the quicksand I suppose. | 19:17 |
| joshcryer | If it congeals it could add increasing weight to the house | 19:17 |
| katsmeow | having weather here atm, it's a "3rd world" place, weather kills the landlines | 19:18 |
| joshcryer | Ahh, my silly quips are probably wasted on you then. ;D | 19:18 |
| katsmeow | no, i understand the sentiment :-) | 19:18 |
| katsmeow | just the same, you can jump into stuff if you are prepared | 19:19 |
| QuantumG | backlog indicates some self-replication talk.. that's about all I read :) | 19:19 |
| joshcryer | I got into my (hopefully) decadal discussion with kanzure about how RepRap is/isn't a replicator project. He keeps having to remind me it's not, so much. | 19:19 |
| joshcryer | (I say decadal because it was the last decade in which we had the argument) | 19:20 |
| QuantumG | uh huh | 19:20 |
| JayDugger | wolfspaul, you've worked in fabrication. Please tell me how big a deal vacuum quality is. | 19:20 |
| joshcryer | I second JayDugger's question. | 19:20 |
| QuantumG | JayDugger: Did you hear Pete Worden on The Space Show the other day? | 19:20 |
| kristianpaul | wolfspraul: joshcryer may be we can use milkymist as fredom bos later as rtems get better supported and we can achive hgiher speed that seems required by demand ;) | 19:21 |
| JayDugger | QuantumG, no...saving it for my next commute. | 19:21 |
| QuantumG | apparently people at NASA Ames have been buying various consumer electronics and testing them in vacuum | 19:21 |
| joshcryer | kristianpaul, milkymist still isn't 100% free hardware, afaict. | 19:21 |
| kristianpaul | btw will be nice wolfspraul talking about marvel in the #freedombox channel in debian | 19:21 |
| JayDugger | Did Worden beat up most of the space cadet development fantasies? | 19:21 |
| JayDugger | Really? | 19:21 |
| QuantumG | prettimuch everything works just fine | 19:21 |
| JayDugger | That surprises me. | 19:21 |
| joshcryer | QuantumG, as expected. | 19:21 |
| JayDugger | I would've guessed vacuum welding would cause erratic failures. | 19:22 |
| joshcryer | Why? Silicon doesn't have air pockets. :) | 19:22 |
| QuantumG | all the small phones in particular.. which he found encouraging for amateur satellite use. | 19:22 |
| kristianpaul | joshcryer: that may be true because xlinnx i guess, but welll.. | 19:22 |
| kristianpaul | we have the free HDL code | 19:22 |
| JayDugger | OTOH, terrestrial vacuum chambers!=LEO!=cislunar space!=... | 19:22 |
| QuantumG | he also said that an Android had already flown in space. | 19:22 |
| joshcryer | Has iPhone? | 19:23 |
| QuantumG | but I didn't hear the details, so who knows. | 19:23 |
| JayDugger | joshcryer, if you go to the Space Show site's guest list, you can probably find an email contact for Worden. | 19:23 |
| kanzure | pete worden? | 19:24 |
| JayDugger | Yes. | 19:24 |
| kanzure | yeah his contact info is all over the place | 19:24 |
| kristianpaul | hardware is clue in freedom wo why call this freedom box when is fulled off non-free hardware | 19:24 |
| kanzure | also apparently he is an advisor for singularityu.org | 19:24 |
| joshcryer | He's everyhwere. | 19:24 |
| joshcryer | He's also awesome. | 19:24 |
| QuantumG | hehe awesome | 19:25 |
| joshcryer | (haven't slept yet ;) | 19:25 |
| joshcryer | Someone on SpaceUP claimed Worden coined the moon bombing meme. | 19:26 |
| joshcryer | Which if true is the greatest troll ever. | 19:26 |
| JayDugger | Moon bombing? | 19:26 |
| QuantumG | I believe it. | 19:26 |
| joshcryer | LCROSS | 19:27 |
| QuantumG | LCROSS | 19:27 |
| JayDugger | Oh. | 19:27 |
| joshcryer | (it was a moon impact experiment, which made the news as us 'bombing' the moon, one of the political sites I frequent went insane about it, it was quite amusing) | 19:27 |
| * katsmeow goes looking for her Gingery stash | 19:27 | |
| * QuantumG punches joshcryer | 19:27 | |
| JayDugger | I remember LCROSS. I'd forgotten the silly fuss. | 19:28 |
| joshcryer | Sorry, QuantumG, tired, stream of consciousness. | 19:28 |
| joshcryer | No one let me talk about how software is more important than hardware for a self-replicator. But, alas. | 19:28 |
| QuantumG | nah, you spoke before someone said your name :P | 19:28 |
| QuantumG | but then again, I didn't say "jinx" | 19:29 |
| kanzure | LCROSS? | 19:29 |
| kanzure | oh it was LCARS that was the star trek interface | 19:29 |
| katsmeow | yeas | 19:30 |
| QuantumG | joshcryer: from one of the SeaDragon pdfs "A command module of the Apollo type provides the guidance and control and communication functions, and will be capable of separation, re-entry, and recovery as well as abort functions." wtf? | 19:31 |
| JayDugger | SeaDragon pdfs? | 19:31 |
| katsmeow | [21:31] <katsmeow> tiggr, define LCARS | 19:31 |
| katsmeow | [21:31] <Tiggr> LCARS : Library Computer Access/Retrieval System ; In the Star Trek fictional universe, LCARS is a fictional computer operating system depicted in the Star Trek television series and motion pictures. Within Star Trek chronology, the term was first | 19:31 |
| katsmeow | [21:31] <Tiggr> used in Star Trek: The Next Generation and in subsequent shows. In a real-world context, the term "LCARS" is frequently used to describe the style of the computer displays of the LCARS syst | 19:31 |
| QuantumG | http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19880069339_1988069339.pdf http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19880069340_1988069340.pdf | 19:31 |
| JayDugger | Thank you. | 19:32 |
| joshcryer | QuantumG, yeah they wanted to put people on it. | 19:32 |
| joshcryer | QuantumG, which was this side of insanity. | 19:32 |
| QuantumG | that hilarious | 19:32 |
| QuantumG | btw, I'm reading "Lunar Descent" right now and it's a dinospace wet dream | 19:33 |
| JayDugger | Dinospace? :) | 19:33 |
| QuantumG | as opposed to NewSpace | 19:33 |
| QuantumG | BoeLockMart with NASA at the helm. | 19:34 |
| JayDugger | Got it. | 19:34 |
| JayDugger | Good Lord..."The rocket [Sea Dragon] would then be towed to a launch site, where the LOX and LH2 would be generated on-site using electrolysis; " | 19:36 |
| JayDugger | "Truax [the designer] suggested using a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier as a power supply during this phase. " | 19:36 |
| JayDugger | Nothing succeeds like excess, I guess. | 19:36 |
| QuantumG | "It uses RP-1 fuel pressured by methane (CH4) using a unique pressurization technique called Secondary VaPak." I've never heard that part of the story before, or even the technique. | 19:36 |
| JayDugger | And I haven't noticed any of these launching, so excess succeeds like nothing. | 19:37 |
| JayDugger | TRW validated the design? | 19:37 |
| QuantumG | hmm.. I've heard of VaPak.. it's when you use boiloff to pressurize the tank. I guess the "secondary" just means it's not the primary propellant that is doing it. | 19:38 |
| katsmeow | like using LPG to pressurise diesel fuel | 19:38 |
| JayDugger | I find it hard to believe they could've achieved anything like the claimed costs if they had to borrow a nuclear carrier for each launch. | 19:39 |
| joshcryer | Design was never validated, afaik. | 19:39 |
| joshcryer | It never got beyond cost analysis (which proved reasonable). | 19:39 |
| katsmeow | given time between launches, they could accumulate it | 19:39 |
| joshcryer | They used shipyard techniques to design it. | 19:39 |
| QuantumG | yeah, it was the Phase I study that was validated by TRW | 19:39 |
| joshcryer | QuantumG gave me the interesting design of pistonless pumps, which I'm looking in to. | 19:39 |
| joshcryer | Would be great if workable. | 19:39 |
| joshcryer | And possibly fixes an inert mass issue I was coming across. | 19:40 |
| QuantumG | of course, the primary purpose of using a pump, any pump is that it lets you have a less heavy tank | 19:40 |
| QuantumG | that's not really relevant for the first stage. | 19:40 |
| QuantumG | cause lighter tanks will break up on splashdown | 19:40 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, I don't believe that accounting considered the costs (and caprice) of the US Navy allowing a carrier to sit off the California cost devoting its power to the lauch. | 19:40 |
| katsmeow | heck, even being stationary | 19:42 |
| katsmeow | "one sitting duck, coming up!" | 19:42 |
| QuantumG | http://ralph.open-aerospace.org/PDF/2009.04.14%20-%20HCG%20White%20Paper%20-%20VaPak%20Overview.pdf | 19:42 |
| QuantumG | Jan 09 on the arocket list John Carmack explains his VaPak experience with LOX/Methane | 19:45 |
| QuantumG | mahaha.. they short loaded LOX into the rocket and then flew it (under tether) until it burned out.. towards the end of the burn it actually transitioned to burning cold GOX. | 19:47 |
| joshcryer | That was what idiom said Sea Dragon would do. | 19:49 |
| joshcryer | Thus the inert mass estimates were fine. | 19:49 |
| joshcryer | You can tell I don't know what to believe. | 19:50 |
| QuantumG | sounds like a nice bit of experimental evidence for him. | 19:50 |
| joshcryer | Thus my question to VAX. | 19:50 |
| joshcryer | Possibly. | 19:50 |
| joshcryer | I'd like to test fire it to be sure. | 19:50 |
| joshcryer | But I don't have a million bucks. :P | 19:50 |
| joshcryer | (ot 10 mil or whatever nonsense it would be to do a full firing) | 19:50 |
| QuantumG | yeah, I just love the way that pdf from '88 says 24 million for refurbishment of the first stage like it's cheap. | 19:53 |
| QuantumG | the whole thing is justified on cost/lb and that presumes there's actually a market for that many lbs. | 19:54 |
| joshcryer | There is. | 19:54 |
| JayDugger | Manned Mars mission, then, and now? | 19:54 |
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| QuantumG | for some reason "no seas on Mars" popped into my head then :P | 19:55 |
| joshcryer | (assuming government is the buyer and taxpayers like fiscal responsiblity and want cheap and affordable space access along with orbital stations and so on and so forth!) | 19:55 |
| joshcryer | One can dream. | 19:55 |
| QuantumG | well, let's put it this way, the net cost of SeaDragon was less than what has been spent on Ares I to-date. | 19:55 |
| QuantumG | (I haven't bothered adjusting for inflation, but I expect that's still true) | 19:56 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, yeah, yeah... | 19:56 |
| JayDugger | and the cost of the Iraq War would've paid for a permanent moon base and a manned Mars mission two or three times, depending on how you count. | 19:57 |
| JayDugger | I know, I know...:( | 19:57 |
| joshcryer | QuantumG, I think jumpboy calculated that it was under the cost of Ares V, but yeah. | 19:57 |
| joshcryer | Plus, 80% of the cost or something like that was the billions (inflation adjusted) they spent on test firing. | 19:57 |
| joshcryer | Something we can mostly do with models for a fraction of the cost. | 19:57 |
| QuantumG | arocket is my glossary | 19:59 |
| QuantumG | I'm reading this document, I see a word that my brain says "I read about that once" and I go search my gmail and get 4 or 5 good posts explaining the concept and its history. | 20:00 |
| QuantumG | the LH2 love in SeaDragon is a little annoying. I wish they'd done numbers for an all RP-1 version | 20:02 |
| QuantumG | it violates the simplicity principle something fierce. | 20:03 |
| joshcryer | They claimed to not have had the time or money to do it. | 20:04 |
| joshcryer | Plus everyone knows second state LH2 is win. | 20:04 |
| QuantumG | everyone did "know" that | 20:04 |
| QuantumG | but the whole point of SeaDragon was to challenge those assumptions | 20:04 |
| QuantumG | just like everyone "knew" that turbopumps were win | 20:05 |
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| thesnark | Good evening everybody | 20:06 |
| JayDugger | Good evening. | 20:06 |
| joshcryer | QuantumG, I'm not even sure why second stage LH2 is win, to be honest. | 20:07 |
| joshcryer | But I know SpaceX is or was going to do it. | 20:07 |
| joshcryer | I can't remember. | 20:07 |
| joshcryer | *sighs* exhaustion | 20:07 |
| QuantumG | normally, the answer is "performance" | 20:07 |
| QuantumG | but really, the answer is "the customer wants it" | 20:07 |
| QuantumG | for SeaDragon, neither of those make sense. | 20:07 |
| QuantumG | the performance argument is just wrong because if you choose to use a pressurized feed system then you're obviously not after performance. | 20:08 |
| QuantumG | and no customer ever said they wanted SeaDragon :) | 20:08 |
| joshcryer | Maybe they just had that mentality. | 20:09 |
| QuantumG | indeed | 20:09 |
| joshcryer | idiom would tell them to use methane/lox | 20:09 |
| joshcryer | (for second stage, or both really) | 20:10 |
| QuantumG | use RP-1 | 20:10 |
| QuantumG | RP-1 is freakin' mana from heaven | 20:10 |
| QuantumG | I like the methane pressurization though, that's groovy | 20:11 |
| QuantumG | load up LOX/RP-1 for both stages in port, add some methane to the RP-1, then set sail.. when you leave port neither chamber is highly pressurized | 20:12 |
| QuantumG | err, tank. | 20:12 |
| QuantumG | as the methane heats the RP-1 becomes pressurized. | 20:12 |
| joshcryer | I keep meaning to ask idiom if his methane thin tanks could survive the first stage reuse splashdown. | 20:12 |
| QuantumG | same with the LOX, but less so. | 20:12 |
| QuantumG | to pressurize the LOX you need to actively heat it. | 20:13 |
| joshcryer | Almost certain that the original design would survive several beatings of that kind. | 20:13 |
| QuantumG | with a nice heat exchanger.. possibly RP-1 powered. | 20:13 |
| QuantumG | the result is, if you're going to have a tank pressurization failure, it'll be at sea, not in port. | 20:14 |
| joshcryer | Heh | 20:14 |
| joshcryer | The margins were so high such a failure would be unlikely. | 20:14 |
| joshcryer | It would produce a bigger explosion than hiroshima. | 20:14 |
| * katsmeow sighs at the bs still in archives | 20:21 | |
| QuantumG | oh, and in regardly to ullage, the first pdf says there's a minimum 100 psi of internal pressure on the tanks | 20:22 |
| QuantumG | which is important for splashdown survival | 20:22 |
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| JayDugger | Good night, everyone. | 20:38 |
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