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| kanzure | lawl wtf http://www.programming.e-cnc.com/ | 00:31 |
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| kanzure | http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/FSF-initiates-Respects-your-Freedom-hardware-endorsement-1107844.html | 08:31 |
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| kanzure | in-browser chemical structure editor http://scitouch.net/ketcher-demo/ketcher.html | 08:50 |
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| kanzure | java api for solidworks http://www.abraxis.com/niceguy/swjava/ | 11:11 |
| kanzure | looks like that's by Jim Sculley <niceguyj@wisdomteeth.comcast.net> | 11:15 |
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| kanzure | kevin kelly's new book "what technology wants" is out | 13:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.kk.org/books/what-technology-wants.php | 13:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0670022152/ref=nosim/kkorg-20 | 13:29 |
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| kanzure | http://io9.com/5663276/a-gorgeous-homemade-time-machine-running-on-open-source-hardware | 13:37 |
| kanzure | hmm are these guys genuinely interested in open source hardware standards? | 13:38 |
| kanzure | http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2010/10/automating-the-maker-revolution.html | 13:38 |
| kanzure | http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/10/14/automating-the-maker-revolution/ | 13:38 |
| kanzure | i don't know why marcin could never quite get convinced | 13:38 |
| kanzure | the humanity+ conference has only one slot available for a talk.. should i choose joseph jackson or forrest higgs? :( | 13:44 |
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| kanzure | comments have been left on http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v467/n7316/full/467634a.html | 15:28 |
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| fenn | i think i should set up a filter blocking out anything written by annalee newitz | 15:52 |
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| kanzure | fenn: you're better off just filtering out io9 | 16:03 |
| * kanzure is trying to figure out how to automatically generate commit messages for changes to CAD files O_o | 16:05 | |
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| kanzure | (humans will approve/rewrite these messages) | 16:06 |
| kanzure | bay area reprap meeting at techshop 7pm | 16:06 |
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| kanzure | hi mheld | 16:21 |
| mheld | Hey y'all | 16:21 |
| kanzure | fenn: mheld will be in your area soon | 16:21 |
| mheld | (and kanzure) | 16:22 |
| fenn | welcome | 16:22 |
| fenn | kanzure: is there a canonical webpage for skdb yet? | 16:22 |
| mheld | Thanks, fenn | 16:22 |
| kanzure | do'h | 16:22 |
| kanzure | uh uhh | 16:22 |
| fenn | (again) | 16:22 |
| fenn | would like to reply to adafruit ala "we're doing this see" | 16:22 |
| kanzure | you can link to http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/ if you want, but no | 16:22 |
| kanzure | frankly the dokuwiki page just had lots of rhetoric iirc | 16:23 |
| kanzure | could you maybe think of something better and i'll go do that? | 16:23 |
| fenn | yeah but it's my rhetoric :( | 16:26 |
| fenn | what i mean is advocating "wikis of all sizes and shapes" sucks | 16:26 |
| kanzure | shouldn't she know that? | 16:27 |
| kanzure | i don't think it was your rhetoric, wasn't it mine? | 16:27 |
| kanzure | why don't we have a whitepaper | 16:27 |
| mheld | I'm planning on heading over to SF for an undetermined period of time, any thoughts as to what I should hit up? | 16:31 |
| kanzure | mheld: stop by noisebridge, biocurious, hacker dojo (near anybots), techshop, singularity university (at NASA Ames in mountain view) | 16:32 |
| kanzure | maybe langton? | 16:32 |
| mheld | Heh, sounds fun. Anybody here from those places? | 16:33 |
| kanzure | well there's actually #noisebridge and #hackerdojo but yes | 16:33 |
| mheld | Ah | 16:34 |
| mheld | I'll check those out too | 16:34 |
| fenn | i guess i'm "from" all of those places (except singularity university) | 16:38 |
| kanzure | oh also siai house if you like cults | 16:38 |
| fenn | they also have a lot of whiteboards | 16:38 |
| fenn | and juice | 16:39 |
| kanzure | fenn: mheld and i were talking a few min ago in #startups | 16:39 |
| kanzure | and i mentioned the whiteboards :( | 16:39 |
| mheld | Haha | 16:39 |
| kanzure | 16:19 < mheld> kanzure: http://singinst.org/aboutus/opportunities/visiting-fellow | 16:39 |
| kanzure | 16:19 < kanzure> whiteboards are what i remember most | 16:39 |
| kanzure | 16:19 < kanzure> they aren't exaggerating on that. | 16:39 |
| fenn | anyway langton is a much cooler cult, we are expanding in all directions wildly | 16:39 |
| mheld | I may have to bug you when I get back to my mahoney | 16:39 |
| mheld | Machine | 16:40 |
| kanzure | langton isn't a very good cult, who's your leader | 16:40 |
| fenn | is mahoney your machine's name? | 16:40 |
| kanzure | distributed control cult | 16:40 |
| fenn | kanzure: we're controlled by the intestinal microflora we share | 16:40 |
| kanzure | kinky | 16:40 |
| mheld | Haha, iPhone spellcheck | 16:40 |
| kanzure | (he's on an iphone :() | 16:41 |
| mheld | Gotta run | 16:41 |
| mheld | Ttys | 16:41 |
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| kanzure | somehow i respect him less for trying irc on an iphone | 16:41 |
| kanzure | is this like a reverse hipster maneuver | 16:42 |
| fenn | i was just setting up irssi on my (new to me) nexus one | 16:42 |
| fenn | it's sorta difficult scrolling back with screen | 16:42 |
| fenn | not sure why | 16:43 |
| jrayhawk_ | I'm told tmux is a lot more pleasant than screen, fwiw. | 16:43 |
| kanzure | fenn: i'm writing a solidworks plugin | 16:44 |
| fenn | you'll pry my screen from my cold titanium endoskeleton | 16:44 |
| kanzure | and i'm trying to automatically generate commit messages | 16:45 |
| kanzure | (which will be human reviewed) | 16:45 |
| fenn | well it's rather hard to capture the intent of a geometry change, isn't it | 16:45 |
| kanzure | i can't decide between (1) comparing the last saved file with the latest version | 16:45 |
| kanzure | or (2) just append a list of changes as the user goes along | 16:45 |
| fenn | i think save points should be commits | 16:45 |
| kanzure | with solidworks i can do per-entity tracking | 16:45 |
| kanzure | are you sure? i usually save even when i'm half-way through | 16:45 |
| fenn | otherwise you get too many insignificant changes and the signal to noise ratio goes into the pooper | 16:45 |
| kanzure | i obsessively save | 16:45 |
| kanzure | as much as i alt+tab perhaps | 16:45 |
| kanzure | i.e. i might add a few more sketches or a new object, and save, but that doesn't mean my endmill adapter is done | 16:46 |
| fenn | with infinite undo and automatic saving, "save" is just another word for "take a snapshot of this state and preserve it for later easy finding" | 16:46 |
| kanzure | have you used google docs, in particular their revision control? | 16:47 |
| kanzure | i obsessively save | 16:47 |
| kanzure | crap | 16:47 |
| kanzure | it's awful-- it's like "revisions 24,050 to 24,394" without an explanation | 16:47 |
| fenn | heh that's neat to see my laptop irssi session scroll magically in synchrony | 16:48 |
| kanzure | i guess some people might want "micro revision mode" | 16:49 |
| kanzure | but i don't know how to do the opposite (only revision/save on major milestones or changes) | 16:50 |
| QuantumG | "save" also often means "remove the revision history" | 16:51 |
| kanzure | wtf? please explain | 16:51 |
| QuantumG | well, say you have infinite undo and automatic saving | 16:52 |
| kanzure | actually, in solidworks, once you save you no longer have undo (i mean, when you reopen the file you no logner have undo) | 16:52 |
| QuantumG | obviously it's using a revision control system of some sort to save changes | 16:52 |
| fenn | that's an evolutionary remnant from age when we had limited storage space to keep udno history | 16:52 |
| fenn | not a behavior you actually want to keep | 16:52 |
| kanzure | so maybe i can have it pop and say "undo history is about to eb lost, would you like to save?" | 16:52 |
| kanzure | or something | 16:52 |
| QuantumG | so often people have a "Save" command that actually produces a version of the data without the revision history | 16:53 |
| QuantumG | often so whoever you give the file to can't see the changes. | 16:53 |
| kanzure | let's say you're making a cnc machine in solidworks | 16:53 |
| QuantumG | (that lead to that state) | 16:53 |
| fenn | i think that sort of thing should be explicit | 16:53 |
| kanzure | and you've started today, and made the base designs | 16:53 |
| kanzure | should it be committing on each time you save the file (since you're afraid you might lose the work) | 16:53 |
| kanzure | or should it only commit.. when? when you reach milestones? | 16:53 |
| kanzure | but how would it detect that? | 16:54 |
| kanzure | "save" should be tied into my plugin and should be synonymous with 'commit' IMHO | 16:54 |
| kanzure | i.e., totally passive to a user's typical workflow | 16:54 |
| QuantumG | well, normally revision control is explicit.. but there's no reason why you couldn't have continuous snapshots on a regular interval. | 16:54 |
| fenn | in the context of solidworks, well, you have all this baggage from the history of UI development over the last 30 years | 16:54 |
| kanzure | continuous snapshots on a regular interval doesn't give you usable commit messages | 16:55 |
| kanzure | except maybe "edge 'bob' has been changed" | 16:55 |
| kanzure | but that's way different from a person's commit message | 16:55 |
| kanzure | although maybe people just write awful commit messages, so i shouldn't let them? | 16:55 |
| QuantumG | yeah, the commit message would be something like: autosave [date/time] | 16:55 |
| QuantumG | and you'd ignore them when looking at revision history I guess | 16:56 |
| kanzure | but then you're cluttering up my repo | 16:56 |
| kanzure | oh | 16:56 |
| kanzure | ok when would a user write a commit message, if ever? | 16:56 |
| fenn | 'save' also might mean 'share this with others' | 16:56 |
| QuantumG | I guess when they want a retrievable milestone | 16:57 |
| kanzure | ok maybe a File->New Milestone button or something | 16:57 |
| kanzure | actually, i was thinnking that whenever a commit happens, it auto-generates the text, | 16:57 |
| kanzure | and the human reviewsi t and changes it if he wants | 16:57 |
| * fenn jeers at the absurdity of a 'file' menu | 16:58 | |
| fenn | you're never going to get auto-generated text worth a crap, so don't autogenerate any text at all, just leave it blank please | 16:58 |
| kanzure | i think it could be pretty good.. "changed 2 edges" | 16:58 |
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| kanzure | or "changed: 2 edges, 5 surfaces, entity names: [list]" | 16:59 |
| kanzure | (git auto-generates this for files, although it doesn't provide any information on each file in the commit message itself) | 16:59 |
| fenn | saw this at autodesk, it's a list of commands sorted by frequency, and edges going to whatever command is next in the sequence http://www.autodeskresearch.com/img/infovis/command_usage_arc/ArcDiagramsFig6.png | 16:59 |
| fenn | so 50% of your autocommits will be 'erased something' | 17:00 |
| fenn | i just dont see any of those commands telling me anything useful | 17:00 |
| fenn | you should autogenerate a thumbnail of whatever was on the screen when you hit save | 17:01 |
| fenn | that would be killer | 17:01 |
| kanzure | those are commands, not the entity names on which they operate | 17:01 |
| kanzure | solidworks renders a bitmap image for each save you do | 17:02 |
| kanzure | it's a separate part of the .sldprt file, you can even extract it with some linuxy tools | 17:02 |
| fenn | how linuxy? | 17:02 |
| kanzure | which is how windows explorer displays the model on the file icon | 17:02 |
| fenn | as in, runs on linux? | 17:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: linux enough to have been posted to OM.. one sec | 17:02 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/16fd8ebe6c677f2c | 17:02 |
| kanzure | sudo apt-get install libgsf-bin | 17:03 |
| kanzure | gsf cat mydrawingfile.SLDDRW PreviewPNG > preview.png && eog preview.png | 17:03 |
| kanzure | png, not a bitmap. my bad | 17:03 |
| QuantumG | so I discovered why I was down on OpenCog | 17:04 |
| QuantumG | I wasn't looking at the latest branch. | 17:04 |
| fenn | neato | 17:04 |
| kanzure | fenn: how important do you feel writing a non-solidworks-based solidworks file writer/reader is? | 17:05 |
| QuantumG | there's only 60 files out of 1100+ that haven't been modified in 2008.. and I guess it's because they're good enough. | 17:05 |
| QuantumG | s/in/since/ | 17:05 |
| kanzure | .sldprt has a zlib-compressed section that is just raw parasolid data that could be extracted/tested, if i sat aside some time | 17:05 |
| fenn | just seeing the preview is a massive boost in "do i care enough about this file to figure out how to run solidworks" | 17:06 |
| kanzure | heh | 17:07 |
| fenn | what's the difference between .sldprt and .sldasm? just whether you reference an external file in an assembly or not? | 17:08 |
| kanzure | do you have sw-reverser.zip? | 17:08 |
| fenn | no | 17:09 |
| kanzure | bunch of old solidworks files and other formatsi saved | 17:09 |
| kanzure | dunno about .sldprt/.sldasm differences.. maybe .sldasm doesn't have parasolid data? | 17:09 |
| kanzure | anyway, to solve up the previous issues: (1) commit messages will be whatever (unless user goes to file->save as and explicitly writes a commit message in a box i add), (2) all commits will have a preview png, (3) autosave & save will do microrevisioning/commits without user review of commit message | 17:11 |
| kanzure | when should the revision state be pushed | 17:11 |
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| fenn | when the user tells it to | 17:12 |
| kanzure | my goal is zero user interaction | 17:12 |
| fenn | i'm not exactly excited about trying to build this into an existing (closed source) commercial application | 17:12 |
| kanzure | heh' guess i should tell you what i've been doing | 17:13 |
| fenn | it seems hard enough to get it right even when we _can_ futz with every element of the UI | 17:13 |
| fenn | you need to have explicit "share with the rest of the world" because otherwise everybody is looking at half baked useless crap | 17:14 |
| fenn | you don't publish a half written draft | 17:14 |
| kanzure | huh? | 17:14 |
| kanzure | one of your messages switched topics i think? | 17:14 |
| fenn | 'when should the revision state be pushed' | 17:14 |
| kanzure | ok | 17:14 |
| mheld | eyh y'all | 17:14 |
| kanzure | dropbox does. | 17:14 |
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| mheld | hey y'all | 17:16 |
| fenn | that thought trainwreck came from me thinking about how to switch between branches from inside solidworks | 17:16 |
| fenn | but solidworks has no conception of revision history, the undo would get all screwed up. you really need to build the UI from the ground up around having a revision control system backend | 17:16 |
| kanzure | undo state doesn't get saved anyway, so i don't know what you're talking about | 17:17 |
| fenn | undo state IS revision history | 17:17 |
| kanzure | not really-- the programs assume a single HEAD, so a single branch | 17:17 |
| fenn | yeah, and that's not good | 17:17 |
| kanzure | well, it's what the users are doing and using | 17:18 |
| fenn | not when you want to merge in (some but not all) changes from your buddy | 17:18 |
| fenn | and then go back and edit the seamlessly merged history | 17:18 |
| kanzure | "not when.." well they don't do merges like that anyway ;) | 17:19 |
| kanzure | i'm sure they would if they (easily) could | 17:19 |
| fenn | most programs will blast away the "redo" history once you make any changes at all | 17:19 |
| kanzure | yep. | 17:19 |
| fenn | fuck that | 17:19 |
| fenn | i put all that effort into making downstream changes, i don't want to have to do it again. that's what computers are for | 17:19 |
| kanzure | lol "vaults" http://picasaweb.google.com/dscarlsbad/2009WorkGroupPDMIn11Steps?feat=flashslideshow#5253885998063329362 | 17:20 |
| QuantumG | I think it's 3ds max that lets you edit the change log by inserting actions | 17:20 |
| fenn | to give the pointy haired boss a sense of security | 17:20 |
| QuantumG | pretty soon that becomes like programming | 17:21 |
| QuantumG | (which is not necessarily a bad thing) | 17:21 |
| kanzure | it is programming (autolisp) | 17:21 |
| kanzure | except.. screwed up | 17:21 |
| fenn | looks like a tube weaving machine (the funky radially symmetric metal thing on slide 1) | 17:22 |
| kanzure | the next few slides explain pdmworks and "the vault" (basically, centralized version control, with lots of locks) | 17:23 |
| fenn | i'm not interested in pdmworks | 17:24 |
| fenn | the whole 'pdm' mindset is so far from where i'd like to be | 17:24 |
| kanzure | thomas paviot was doing a plm thing before/while he started pythonocc | 17:25 |
| fenn | their paradigm is "a moment of pure divine inspiration proceeds through various levels of bullshitification until it ends up on the consumer's breakfast plate, drizzled in marketing goop and with a hastily scribbled note saying where to call in case of total annihilation" | 17:25 |
| QuantumG | so there's a question for ya | 17:25 |
| fenn | it's a very one-way street | 17:25 |
| kanzure | yep | 17:26 |
| QuantumG | did you decide that you're going to have a programming language that produces these cad models? | 17:26 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: lolcad, but that's not what we're talking about | 17:26 |
| QuantumG | so that's what you're doing with lolcad? cool | 17:26 |
| fenn | lolcad is just a library from what i gather | 17:27 |
| kanzure | sorry, fenn is right | 17:27 |
| kanzure | you'll just be using python | 17:27 |
| QuantumG | python bindings to it or something then? | 17:27 |
| QuantumG | right | 17:27 |
| kanzure | i fugre why reinvent the wheel | 17:27 |
| kanzure | figure | 17:27 |
| QuantumG | (it's pretty bad when I start reading kanzure's mind) | 17:27 |
| fenn | again, i prefer names that describe the thing being named | 17:27 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/lolcad.git | 17:27 |
| kanzure | skdb is an awful name | 17:27 |
| fenn | indeed | 17:27 |
| kanzure | k | 17:27 |
| kanzure | i think it's my fault anyway | 17:28 |
| QuantumG | it's always your fault | 17:28 |
| fenn | yeah, i wanted to call it autogenix | 17:28 |
| kanzure | also a bad name :P | 17:28 |
| kanzure | (although not as bad) | 17:28 |
| kanzure | uh, so anyway | 17:28 |
| kanzure | fenn: if i am going to do revision control correctly with cad, i'll do it via lolcad if anything | 17:28 |
| fenn | lolcad is just a library | 17:28 |
| fenn | you'd have to make an actual user interface in order to "do it correctly" | 17:29 |
| kanzure | how about the opengl terminal? | 17:29 |
| fenn | it's really hard to specify "that corner" by typing on a command line | 17:29 |
| kanzure | entities in a sketch should have names, period | 17:29 |
| fenn | you can't name every corner | 17:29 |
| kanzure | yes you can | 17:29 |
| jrayhawk_ | 17:21:06 omg/jblake: I'm very firmly in the "generate a commit every time anything at all changes (even more frequently than autosaving is) and just give them an 'autogenerated commit' message" camp. | 17:29 |
| fenn | no | 17:29 |
| kanzure | alphabet, whatever | 17:29 |
| jrayhawk_ | 17:22:16 omg/jblake: It's not like commit messages are useful for anything except sharing patches, and you'd just rebase into a prettier patch series if you wanted to do that. | 17:29 |
| jrayhawk_ | 17:24:16 omg/jblake: (It's worth noting that I have a 155MiB git repo that I use regularly with about 43% of the commit messages literally "Noise.") | 17:30 |
| jrayhawk_ | 17:25:11 omg/jblake: If I only look at commits from the last year, it's 92% "Noise.". | 17:30 |
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| kanzure | fenn: what's with your newfound insistence on clicky UIs? | 17:30 |
| QuantumG | so, a cad design is an object with many child objects, like lines and points and whatever. You could have a tree structure to show the parent-child relationships, and a visualizer to show the current state of the object. So if you select a point in the tree it does something in the visualizer to indicate what point you've selected, and maybe you can move the point in the visualization, so then you have the beginnings of an editor. | 17:30 |
| kanzure | a clickable UI doesn't exclude naming conventions for geometries | 17:30 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: jules sucks and he should just be in here. | 17:31 |
| fenn | humans have a very strong inbuilt comprehension of geometry, and all that goes to waste when using a command line | 17:31 |
| fenn | if we're doing something like PCB design, i agree, command line makes a lot more sense | 17:31 |
| kanzure | so is it still just a library if it includes clicky routines for the opengl viewport | 17:32 |
| kanzure | and is it bad if it remains "just a library" | 17:32 |
| fenn | QuantumG: i don't agree with your premise "a cad design is an object with many child objects" | 17:32 |
| fenn | but i dunno why you brought that up anyway | 17:32 |
| kanzure | or were you trying to make another point with that just-a-library comment :P | 17:32 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: yeah, i was planning on having a "zoom/move to recently changed geometry portion" function in the wxWidgets interface, plus a few shortcut keys to go back to previous/default view | 17:33 |
| kanzure | alibre.com has a zoom/switch-to-interacted-segment functionality, it's pretty hot :) | 17:33 |
| fenn | kanzure: i'm enthusiastically for keeping lolcad tightly scoped as just a binding to useful functions for reading writing and modifying nurbs geometry and various file formats that store nurbs geometry such as STEP | 17:33 |
| kanzure | hm | 17:34 |
| fenn | in other words, there should be more than one interface that uses lolcad | 17:34 |
| fenn | apologies if i'm rambling incoherently today | 17:34 |
| kanzure | wasn't the original complaint that nobody would use lolcad if they can't see what they are doing? | 17:34 |
| kanzure | i'm fine with decoupling the visualiation from lolcad, that's the whole point yes | 17:34 |
| kanzure | but the only option for users is something like heekscad/opencascade | 17:35 |
| kanzure | which totally defeats the purpose of me avoiding OCC | 17:35 |
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| fenn | the only option to do what? | 17:35 |
| kanzure | to visualize their lolcad-generated STEP file | 17:35 |
| fenn | oh, right | 17:35 |
| fenn | yeah there should be a 'generate view' program | 17:35 |
| fenn | or function, or whatever | 17:35 |
| kanzure | my nurbs visualizer is "immediately update the view" | 17:35 |
| fenn | a program that calls that function | 17:35 |
| QuantumG | ahh, but ya see, the "undo history" is a program to create a lolcad object | 17:36 |
| fenn | a very simple wrapper script | 17:36 |
| kanzure | openscad/povray "generates once in a blue moon" is idiotic | 17:36 |
| fenn | yeah i dont get why openscad takes so long to render | 17:36 |
| kanzure | it's because their rendering strategy is retarded | 17:36 |
| kanzure | they don't actually use opengl or anything | 17:36 |
| fenn | QuantumG: i'm fine with that | 17:36 |
| kanzure | it's like compiling a program.. just to render it | 17:36 |
| fenn | QuantumG: as long as i can modify the source code for the original modification and then show the result after other (in-UI) changes have been applied | 17:37 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: lolcad gets to have (1) revision control of .py files that import the library, and (2) python-god-given introspection of your CAD objects | 17:37 |
| fenn | s/original modification/original import/ | 17:37 |
| kanzure | jblake: obviously we're not talking about revision control via solidworks plugins, now. | 17:37 |
| kanzure | jblake: but basically we came to the conclusion that using the preview png embedded in .sldprt files as the commit message or an indicator would be useful. | 17:38 |
| fenn | is there a way to get the screen shot instead? | 17:38 |
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| kanzure | fenn: from .sldprt files? | 17:38 |
| fenn | preview png is always from the same angle, right? | 17:38 |
| kanzure | the preview png is the screenshot that solidworks last saved | 17:38 |
| kanzure | no | 17:38 |
| fenn | ok | 17:38 |
| kanzure | just, last angle you were using | 17:38 |
| fenn | good | 17:38 |
| fenn | not so good for catalog of parts, but good for revision control | 17:39 |
| fenn | would be nice to have two thumbnails of the part | 17:39 |
| kanzure | ever try to load a huge directory of thumbnails of any sort :P | 17:39 |
| fenn | one for last commit, another from an isometric view that's the same for all members of that part family | 17:39 |
| kanzure | thingiverse does stl2pov to render the object.. i could do server-side view rendering for each commit pretty easily | 17:39 |
| fenn | does solidworks save the view settings? | 17:40 |
| fenn | like where you were zoomed in on and what angle | 17:40 |
| kanzure | for your last view. dunno about anything else | 17:40 |
| fenn | ok | 17:40 |
| kanzure | wouldn't be hard to save zoom magnitude, camera vector | 17:41 |
| fenn | you could theoretically do some script that opens up solidworks, switches to a standard isometric view, and take a screenshot, yes? | 17:41 |
| kanzure | (if needed) | 17:41 |
| kanzure | yep | 17:41 |
| kanzure | headless solidworks is doable. | 17:41 |
| fenn | where would you run it? | 17:42 |
| jblake | precommit hook? | 17:42 |
| kanzure | fenn: amazon ec2 | 17:42 |
| fenn | somehow you'd have to communicate with a windows instance inside a VM | 17:42 |
| * kanzure has been making a vmware image | 17:42 | |
| kanzure | *cough* | 17:42 |
| fenn | yes and OF COURSE we are all using our gratis student editions of said software | 17:44 |
| fenn | so anyway, how do you talk to the vm? | 17:44 |
| kanzure | http | 17:44 |
| kanzure | also ssh | 17:44 |
| kanzure | jblake: precommit hooks where? | 17:45 |
| fenn | in the git repo on server side | 17:45 |
| jblake | omg If you're generating these thumbnails for commit messages, then presumably you have a local solidworks running, because otherwise you would not have just generated a commit? | 17:45 |
| fenn | so when i push to dev.gnusha.org it renders everything as it gets integrated into the gnusha repo | 17:45 |
| jblake | er, feh. stupid irc. | 17:45 |
| kanzure | jblake: well, there's two things going on there | 17:46 |
| * fenn mumbles something about a bot to bridge with omg/wallhack | 17:46 | |
| kanzure | one, the preview in .sldprt already | 17:46 |
| kanzure | two, i suppose you would do a headless solidworks yes | 17:46 |
| kanzure | buttbot doesn't do butt bridging, and for good reasons | 17:46 |
| fenn | an unfounded statement of your value system, an opinion | 17:48 |
| kanzure | :P | 17:48 |
| kanzure | i wouldn't be upset. | 17:48 |
| fenn | some people won't be running our plugin, we get solidworks files all the time being posted to thingiverse | 17:49 |
| kanzure | huh? | 17:50 |
| jblake | o i c | 17:50 |
| kanzure | oh i see. | 17:50 |
| kanzure | fuck | 17:50 |
| kanzure | screw you | 17:51 |
| kanzure | fenn: have you played with amazon ec2 yet? | 17:54 |
| kanzure | http://www.arenasolutions.com/democenter/index.html | 17:54 |
| fenn | huh? "SolidWorks pioneered the ability of a user to roll back through the history of the part in order to make changes, add additional features, or change the sequence in which operations are performed. Later feature-based solid modeling software has copied this idea." | 17:54 |
| kanzure | hmmm | 17:55 |
| kanzure | oh | 17:55 |
| fenn | i know a fair amount about ec2 but i haven't used it yet | 17:55 |
| kanzure | they are talking about the parametric file format | 17:55 |
| kanzure | so, i.e., changing the sketch dimensions and then re-applying the extrudes, chamfers, etc. | 17:55 |
| jblake | It seems like they're fairly obviously talking about the rollback bar. | 17:55 |
| kanzure | which isn't the same thing as what we're talking about | 17:55 |
| kanzure | uh, rollback bar? | 17:55 |
| fenn | well, it is, sorta | 17:55 |
| kanzure | i've never seen a rollback bar | 17:56 |
| jblake | In the hierarchy of the part you have open, there's a little bar below the last thing in the list. | 17:56 |
| kanzure | oh. | 17:56 |
| kanzure | i thought that was a graphics error :x | 17:56 |
| jblake | Grab it, and pull it up. It rolls back the project to only show you stuff that happened above the bar. | 17:56 |
| jblake | That's why aspects of the project can only be defined in terms of things above them in the hierarchy. | 17:57 |
| kanzure | yeah, i usually just double click on the older/top-level features | 17:57 |
| fenn | damn, you mean your puny software can't even violate causality? | 17:59 |
| jblake | realistically in a constraint-based solver like solidworks there's no particularly good reason to disallow acausal systems | 18:02 |
| jblake | the only reason they do appears to be so they can simplify their UI slightly :-/ | 18:02 |
| kanzure | the top of solidworks feels a lot like a "ribbon" | 18:03 |
| jblake | solidworks ui is hilariously better than the ribbon | 18:03 |
| jblake | mostly just because it's so customizable | 18:04 |
| fenn | what's "the ribbon"? | 18:04 |
| jblake | use a new version of ms office | 18:04 |
| kanzure | "the ribbon" was introduced in ms office 2008 | 18:04 |
| kanzure | i had the displeasure of using it throughout high school and college | 18:05 |
| jblake | they got rid of customizable toolbars *and* the menubar at the same time | 18:05 |
| fenn | oh, so, a shitload of buttons with cryptic diagrams? | 18:05 |
| jblake | with a bunch of irritating whitespace, no consistent size for the buttons, and organized in a fairly arbitrary manner that the user isn't allowed to override | 18:06 |
| kanzure | http://cybernetnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/OfficeThemes.jpg | 18:06 |
| fenn | how the hell did 'clipboard' come to mean 'paste buffer' anyway | 18:07 |
| jrayhawk | Everything had an 'office' metaphor for marketing purposes. | 18:07 |
| jblake | the selection buffer is pretty clearly superior to clipboards anyway | 18:07 |
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| fenn | i'm still befuddled by shift-insert, never know what it's going to paste | 18:09 |
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| jrayhawk | X has conflicting copy/paste extensions; shift-insert is almost always the client-to-client buffer. | 18:10 |
| jblake | In most programs, shift-insert pastes from the clipboard. | 18:10 |
| jblake | The selection buffer is a hell of a lot simpler to reason about. | 18:10 |
| fenn | yeah, whatever is selected | 18:11 |
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| jblake | I suppose the big problem is that a bunch of xterms and mozilla programs got it in their heads that selecting something should *also* change the clipboard; that's mostly what winds up making the clipboard impossible to use. | 18:13 |
| jblake | Older programs and toolsets that obey the very simple "PRIMARY is current selection; CLIPBOARD is last thing explicitly copied" rule are always predictable. | 18:13 |
| jblake | Admittedly, cut buffers were just a huge mistake; fortunately everyone pretty consistently ignores them nowadays | 18:15 |
| kanzure | what should i do with humanity+? | 18:16 |
| QuantumG | kick it into high gear :) | 18:16 |
| kanzure | they are begging me for something to do | 18:16 |
| kanzure | but i don't really have a master scheme | 18:16 |
| kanzure | esp. since most of them are more into media/advertizing | 18:16 |
| jblake | master haskell is better, anyway | 18:16 |
| fenn | kanzure is there actual money for media development? | 18:17 |
| kanzure | nope, they want to raise money for their blog | 18:17 |
| kanzure | but natasha/max and i figured it'd be better.. not to. | 18:17 |
| fenn | "raise money for their blog" lol | 18:17 |
| kanzure | :( it's so sad | 18:17 |
| kanzure | humanity+: at the butt-end of tech | 18:17 |
| fenn | first of all, blogs dont cost anything | 18:17 |
| kanzure | this one does, oh man | 18:17 |
| fenn | second, why are they paying money for something that's free? | 18:18 |
| fenn | third what sort of business model is that? | 18:18 |
| kanzure | it's not a business, it's a non-profit :P | 18:18 |
| fenn | it is? | 18:18 |
| kanzure | humanity+? | 18:18 |
| fenn | well fuck i didnt even realie that | 18:18 |
| fenn | go write some grants, or tell someone to write grants, or something | 18:18 |
| QuantumG | I'd probably have to read something on humanity+ to give you a fair suggestion of what to do with it | 18:18 |
| kanzure | yeah gada prize is successfully transferred (check is in the mail) | 18:18 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: used to be the world transhumanist association | 18:19 |
| fenn | plz take a picture of the check | 18:19 |
| joshcryer | yeah pic of check plz | 18:19 |
| kanzure | sure.. but why | 18:19 |
| joshcryer | fun | 18:19 |
| kanzure | don't banks snap shots of checks? | 18:19 |
| fenn | so we know which account to hijack :{ | 18:19 |
| kanzure | heh | 18:19 |
| joshcryer | fenn, heh | 18:19 |
| kanzure | get off my brain waves, joshcryer | 18:20 |
| fenn | you can make a blog post about it | 18:20 |
| kanzure | these them thoughts are copyrite | 18:20 |
| kanzure | yeah, there's going to be a post eventually | 18:20 |
| fenn | 'look, real money, fo realz, no srsly' | 18:20 |
| kanzure | but first i wanted them to fix http://humanityplus.org/ | 18:20 |
| QuantumG | ok, here's what to do with humanity+: track down medical people working on humanity+ interesting technology and incite them to do humanity+ type things with it. Promise them promotion. | 18:20 |
| kanzure | like what kind of fucking website is that | 18:20 |
| kanzure | i would rather have no website over that. | 18:20 |
| kanzure | member database is a collection of lots of old csv files | 18:20 |
| kanzure | why do they even have members, etc. etc. | 18:21 |
| kanzure | the only reason i can think to use a 501c3 non-profit like humanity+ is for accepting tax-deductible donations | 18:21 |
| kanzure | particularly for projects. | 18:21 |
| fenn | get rid of 'topics' list | 18:21 |
| fenn | did nobody realize it was the same content as the tag cloud? | 18:21 |
| kanzure | it's "SEO" | 18:21 |
| QuantumG | contact all the members and ask them if they would be interested in participating in some "plusing experiments" | 18:21 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: sadly they don't know all of their members | 18:22 |
| QuantumG | heh | 18:22 |
| kanzure | and, on top of that, wta-talk has no idea what h+ is doing | 18:22 |
| kanzure | it's like it's two different worlds | 18:22 |
| kanzure | so anyway | 18:22 |
| fenn | SEO has nothing to do with what is displayed visibly on the page | 18:22 |
| kanzure | gada prize seemed like a good way to use humanity+ | 18:22 |
| kanzure | fenn: ah, but it does when amy is doing the SEO | 18:22 |
| kanzure | (she's a "UX person") | 18:22 |
| kanzure | (who does SEO) | 18:22 |
| fenn | eri is doing some experiment involving butter and coconut fat for improving reaction time/math problems, she needs volunteers | 18:23 |
| kanzure | why would that need a 501c3 | 18:23 |
| fenn | seems like a way to get people at least interested | 18:23 |
| kanzure | people pay to be members of humanity+ | 18:23 |
| kanzure | i don't know why. | 18:23 |
| kanzure | so, that's why i'm saying if i had a set of concrete projects, it would be helpful | 18:23 |
| fenn | they don't know how else to contribute to what they think ought to be happening in the world | 18:24 |
| kanzure | in terms of "we need to move money somewhere useful!" or something | 18:24 |
| kanzure | who, the people running h+ or the members | 18:24 |
| fenn | uh both | 18:24 |
| kanzure | i think i have my head on straight pretty well | 18:24 |
| kanzure | but i am probably biased? | 18:25 |
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| fenn | sorry that was a irc temporal crosstalk failure | 18:25 |
| kanzure | heh | 18:25 |
| fenn | a way to get members and officials interested in their organization | 18:25 |
| kanzure | ok so who cares | 18:25 |
| fenn | you do need a bit of momentum in order to start anything | 18:26 |
| kanzure | h+ doesn't really cater to any transhumanists | 18:26 |
| fenn | well why not | 18:26 |
| kanzure | it certainly doesn't cater to me | 18:26 |
| kanzure | because they are doing things wrong, so i need to provide them with that set of things that would be more helpful to me | 18:26 |
| kanzure | so i was hoping you would elaborate on what that set might be | 18:26 |
| fenn | yeah it's all "look at out twitter page about our twitter page" navel gazing | 18:26 |
| * fenn points at trans-tech.yaml | 18:26 | |
| fenn | any reason that's not up on the website? | 18:27 |
| kanzure | because i abhor the website. | 18:27 |
| QuantumG | they do some sort of news feed right? | 18:27 |
| kanzure | right now i think it would be better with no website | 18:27 |
| kanzure | until the organization has more of a direction/purpose/toolchain-for-something | 18:27 |
| fenn | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/tree/doc/proposals/trans-tech.yaml | 18:27 |
| fenn | fuck man, go at the website with a chainsaw | 18:28 |
| kanzure | so you mean they should be carrying out the projects? | 18:28 |
| fenn | tear out all the crap you don't like, add stuff you do like | 18:28 |
| kanzure | fenn: it's webmastering-by-committee (at this point) | 18:28 |
| fenn | then point at it | 18:28 |
| kanzure | i was thinking i'd just stage my own version of a better site | 18:28 |
| fenn | who is the committee? | 18:28 |
| kanzure | the board of directors | 18:28 |
| fenn | and do they not agree that the website sucks? | 18:28 |
| kanzure | (max, natasha, tom, ben, ...) | 18:28 |
| kanzure | well, they were going to install a new wordpress template but i don't think that fixes the systemic issues | 18:29 |
| kanzure | anyway, the trans-tech.yaml suggestion is more interesting to me as talkfodder | 18:29 |
| fenn | there should at the very least be some sort of front-page-visible taxonomy of "wtf is transhumanism anyway" | 18:29 |
| fenn | .. wordpress template.. who gives a flying fuck what the css is | 18:29 |
| kanzure | because they get to throw money at it and they feel better | 18:30 |
| kanzure | anyway, | 18:30 |
| kanzure | is there any value in directing lots of my own personal projects or other trans-tech.yaml-related-projects through humanity+? | 18:31 |
| QuantumG | anyway, if you want something to spend money on, hire a "correspondent" to follow up on transhumanist internet news. | 18:31 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: that's what hplusmagazine.com is (they pay RU Sirius) | 18:31 |
| QuantumG | do they ask the questions transhumanists want to ask? | 18:31 |
| kanzure | what? | 18:32 |
| kanzure | why would that matter | 18:32 |
| QuantumG | isn't that the point? | 18:32 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure media/entertainment/news should be the point anyway | 18:32 |
| QuantumG | nothing happens without information | 18:32 |
| QuantumG | educating the public about the transhumanist point of view | 18:33 |
| kanzure | i think we're not communicating well here | 18:33 |
| kanzure | (1) why do we need a non-profit to run a blog? | 18:33 |
| fenn | RU sirius is not a transhumanist | 18:33 |
| fenn | he's a yippie mostly i think | 18:33 |
| kanzure | (2) why do we need to pay RU Sirius to "educate the public" about human enhancement? | 18:33 |
| kanzure | right now the rest of the world is educating humanity+ about how tech works, and they ain't listening :P | 18:34 |
| kanzure | i don't know why i'm asking you guys to come up with ideas, why would you know the answer to these issues | 18:34 |
| fenn | i think there needs to be more information on the webpage about what sort of things can be done and why we think they're a good idea | 18:34 |
| kanzure | why would that need humanity+ | 18:35 |
| joshcryer | I hate running websites. | 18:35 |
| fenn | because it's not gathered into a convenient loation | 18:35 |
| QuantumG | example: a medical team creates an implant that fixes (insert handicap here), the news media reports it as a medical miracle but no-one bothers to ask the doctor "what could this do for healthy people?" In comes the Humanity+ correspondent and gets the medical practitioner on the record as either supporting or refuting the transhumanist agenda. | 18:35 |
| joshcryer | I hate thinking about running websites. | 18:35 |
| fenn | stuff scattered across the net | 18:35 |
| kanzure | ok fine, but that could just be any website | 18:35 |
| kanzure | anders sandberg's site v2 | 18:35 |
| fenn | yeah, and anders isnt keeping up | 18:35 |
| kanzure | yeah he's grown soft i think :( not sure | 18:35 |
| fenn | anyway i gotta go solder something bbl | 18:35 |
| joshcryer | Here's what you do. You put a big, 50 point font of a big H and a big + on the site. | 18:36 |
| kanzure | website aside, i see humanity+ mostly as a vehicle for projects and funding, at best | 18:36 |
| joshcryer | Then put a date. | 18:36 |
| kanzure | stop thinking about the site, it doesn't matter | 18:36 |
| joshcryer | Work toward that date and stop caring about the site. :P | 18:36 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: http://diyhpl.us/ done? | 18:36 |
| joshcryer | I see no deadline date! | 18:36 |
| QuantumG | ya need progress to estimate a deadline :P | 18:37 |
| joshcryer | I like the H+ logo though. | 18:37 |
| kanzure | they paid a lot for it | 18:37 |
| * kanzure pouts | 18:37 | |
| joshcryer | Really? | 18:37 |
| kanzure | yes | 18:37 |
| joshcryer | You are serious?! | 18:37 |
| joshcryer | OMG. | 18:37 |
| kanzure | RU Sirius. | 18:37 |
| joshcryer | QuantumG, that's why you estimate your dealine and triple how long you think it'll take, and you might be surprised when you make it. | 18:39 |
| QuantumG | random thought: when will robotic construction leave the factory? | 18:43 |
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| joshcryer | Not soon enough. | 18:44 |
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| joshcryer | Dang factory robots are so ridiculously specialized I duobt they'd be able to do much useful stuff outside of them. | 18:45 |
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| kanzure | imho, it's the engineers who are making those specialized factories | 18:58 |
| joshcryer | Job security baby. | 18:59 |
| QuantumG | robots to put up a stadium.. that'd be awesome | 19:04 |
| kanzure | human robots? | 19:05 |
| QuantumG | that's what it is now :) | 19:05 |
| masked | the pyramids weer built with biofeedback | 19:08 |
| masked | were* | 19:08 |
| joshcryer | Robots to put up an entire theme park, dude. | 19:16 |
| joshcryer | Think big. | 19:16 |
| masked | ooh | 19:20 |
| masked | self-replicating rollercoasters?! | 19:20 |
| masked | some crazy old nut | 19:20 |
| masked | tried to tell me that credible scientists believe | 19:20 |
| masked | that the pyraminds were build with a brain interface | 19:21 |
| masked | for heavy machinery | 19:21 |
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| QuantumG | they were built by Ra's slaves before the uprising and the burying of the Stargate, duh. | 19:31 |
| masked | not by chuck norris's fist? | 19:31 |
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| joshcryer | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_XL_2011 | 19:46 |
| joshcryer | looks like premodeled stuff | 19:48 |
| joshcryer | shame | 19:48 |
| fenn | kanzure i dont know how you managed to make a blank webpage fuck up my computer | 19:49 |
| joshcryer | fenn, hahaha | 19:50 |
| joshcryer | H+ is doomed if one of the better users' computer was fucked up by a blank webpage. | 19:50 |
| fenn | well, it was using 100% cpu and making my music player skip | 19:51 |
| fenn | reniced audacious and closed the webpage, now ok again | 19:51 |
| fenn | H+ is doomed regardless | 19:51 |
| fenn | QuantumG: if ra had antigravity and teleportation technology, why did he need so many slaves? | 19:57 |
| fenn | like, we could just teleport this 50 ton brick to the top of the pyramid, but we're going to make you drag it there instead, out of spite | 19:58 |
| superkuh | The revivals in the sarcophagus made them overly aggressive and evil. | 19:58 |
| fenn | btw we need more robots to set up burning man, but currently the department of public works is staffed by masochists and won't tolerate any improvement upon their pain-filled existence | 19:59 |
| fenn | (it's sort of like a theme park, if you were wondering) | 20:00 |
| QuantumG | fenn: they're evil, they like seeing humans suffer | 20:11 |
| masked | gizmodo.com.au/2010/10/robot-punches-humans-in-order-to-learn-asimovs-rules/ | 20:12 |
| masked | http://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/news/local/news/general/how-to-invent-an-award/1775178.aspx | 20:14 |
| masked | http://www.enterpriserobotics.com/ | 20:14 |
| masked | a local guy made this robot | 20:14 |
| masked | 'risper' | 20:14 |
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| fenn | there are no fluid lines going to those {hydraulic, pneumatic,?} cylinders | 20:51 |
| fenn | what is it with australians and robots | 20:56 |
| fenn | seemed like half of ##robotics was australian | 20:57 |
| QuantumG | no idea | 20:58 |
| QuantumG | but I expect it has something to do with Australia leading the way in robotic mining technology (don't know if that's cause or effect though) | 20:59 |
| fenn | nobody i talked to had any experience with mining equipment at all | 21:02 |
| fenn | they all basically taught themselves from the internet and made hobby robot + ai from scratch | 21:03 |
| QuantumG | then, yeah, no idea | 21:07 |
| QuantumG | friend of mine runs robotparts.com.au | 21:07 |
| fenn | those are some expensive robot parts | 21:11 |
| fenn | i dont think the dollar conversion ratio accounts for it | 21:11 |
| fenn | some of them seem very specialized | 21:12 |
| QuantumG | yeah, I've not seen anything on it I'd like to buy :) | 21:13 |
| fenn | motor drivers maybe, all too expensive for my taste though | 21:13 |
| kanzure | back from another one of dave's famous 10pm meetings. | 21:14 |
| fenn | i can by Real(tm) industrial stuff from mesa electronics for those prices | 21:14 |
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| kanzure | i <3 patents http://www.google.com/patents?id=P4MpAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=5251294&pg=PA15#v=onepage&q&f=false | 21:39 |
| joshcryer | patent imagination! | 21:47 |
| QuantumG | http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1821690&cid=33904574 | 21:55 |
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| kanzure | :( mark zuckerberg has a lower slashdot id than me http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=61425&threshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=5774175 | 22:01 |
| masked | strangely enough | 22:04 |
| masked | i just went to meet someone regarding work | 22:05 |
| joshcryer | I never signed up with /. | 22:05 |
| masked | and it's the risper robot man haha | 22:05 |
| masked | risper runs windows 7 | 22:05 |
| masked | vb and c# | 22:05 |
| joshcryer | oh wow | 22:05 |
| joshcryer | Here's an idea I had recently. | 22:05 |
| joshcryer | OK so I can't make a magical replicator machine. | 22:05 |
| joshcryer | That's super damn hard. | 22:06 |
| joshcryer | But maybe I could make a robot cook. :) | 22:06 |
| masked | isn't that an oven? | 22:06 |
| kanzure | silence! | 22:06 |
| kanzure | robo-oven | 22:06 |
| joshcryer | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1191884/Flipping-brilliant-Now-Japan-invented-robot-cook-pancakes-breakfast.html | 22:07 |
| joshcryer | But a general purpose cook, that takes recipes and... makes follows them. | 22:07 |
| superkuh | My /. UID is 91035. | 22:07 |
| joshcryer | http://www.business-opportunities.biz/2010/04/27/wok-robot-can-cook-600-chinese-dishes/ | 22:07 |
| kanzure | steve rayhawk has 87427 http://slashdot.org/~srayhawk | 22:09 |
| kanzure | and his only post was about a better way to do moderation :x | 22:09 |
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| masked | no more flipping burgers | 22:28 |
| masked | just builderburgers | 22:29 |
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