| --- Log opened Tue Nov 16 00:00:08 2010 | ||
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| archels | "As for the future, your task is not to forsee it, but to enable it." | 03:33 |
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| dbolser | how would you go about disenableing it? | 03:51 |
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| Utopiah | GREEN FLOAT - a Floating City in the Sky : DigInfo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXbYRxl16SA | 05:10 |
| Utopiah | http://www.shimz.co.jp/english/theme/dream/greenfloat.html | 05:11 |
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| dbolser | http://chronicle.com/article/The-Shadow-Scholar/125329/ | 05:20 |
| dbolser | The Shadow Scholar | 05:20 |
| dbolser | The man who writes your students' papers tells his story | 05:20 |
| cluckj | :( | 05:39 |
| cluckj | that's why participation in class and taking notes is like 40% of my students' grade | 05:39 |
| archels | You evaluate their notes? | 05:40 |
| cluckj | well, they're structured note-taking sheets with questions and stuff on them | 05:41 |
| Utopiah | (sick number of comments) | 05:42 |
| cluckj | yeah, I just finished reading through the main body, I'm not sure if I can handle reading through the comments | 05:42 |
| archels | cluckj: Out of curiosity, what field? Bio? | 05:44 |
| cluckj | science and technology studies | 05:44 |
| klafka | this is prety great | 05:44 |
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| cluckj | archels, it's a social sciences discipline | 05:45 |
| klafka | heh this is funny, it'd be much harder to do this in hard science graduate degrees | 05:45 |
| klafka | although apparently it's very very commonly done in china | 05:45 |
| cluckj | it's probably much harder where any original research is concerned | 05:46 |
| klafka | yeah | 05:46 |
| cluckj | and grading sucks just as much as taking tests or writing papers (unless you like writing papers) | 05:47 |
| klafka | apparently china has publication requirements for masters programs, and there is a booming industry of people creating fake journals and writing fake articles which you can then pay to have your name put on them | 05:47 |
| cluckj | and if you like writing papers, I will usually like reading them | 05:47 |
| cluckj | oh nice | 05:47 |
| klafka | yeah grading sucks a lot =\ | 05:48 |
| cluckj | I do agree with the author of that article about not throwing students to the curb for intellectual dishonesty | 05:49 |
| cluckj | it's the thing that infuriates me the most about teaching | 05:49 |
| cluckj | I really enjoy teaching, and helping people learn, so it's just a very personal insult to me when students cheat | 05:50 |
| klafka | i haven't gotten to that | 05:50 |
| cluckj | I was TAing in the biology department at my university for a bit and one student turned in their lab notes in two different handwriting styles | 05:51 |
| cluckj | when I got to the end of their notebook, I found someone else's name on the notes too | 05:51 |
| klafka | hah wow | 05:51 |
| archels | cluckj: Well, there's cheating by means of scribbling notes in 5pt font on a small piece of paper and smuggling it into the exam (which I have done numerous times, and don't consider unethical) | 05:51 |
| klafka | how is that not unethical? | 05:52 |
| archels | but having someone else write your paper for you with your name on it, that's a different matter entirely | 05:52 |
| cluckj | I was furious, and the instructor wouldn't let me fail them, I was told to just "not give them credit" for the assignments that weren't theirs | 05:52 |
| cluckj | archels that's different | 05:52 |
| cluckj | I don't really have any assignments that require rote memorization of stuff | 05:52 |
| cluckj | most of them center around 1) paying attention in class (which isn't too much to ask) 2) taking notes on what you are thinking about when reading the material and 3) showing me that you can synthesize the course materials together in some kind of coherent form | 05:53 |
| archels | On my neurobiology course, we're allowed to bring in one (and only one) sheet of A4, handwritten. | 05:54 |
| archels | Oh, and *no magnifying glass* (yes, he explicitly mentioned that). :) | 05:54 |
| klafka | cluckj, yeah it's not really so much the instructors fault either | 05:54 |
| cluckj | yeah, most of my undergrad courses allowed crib sheets like that | 05:54 |
| klafka | well if you're a professor you probably know that though | 05:54 |
| cluckj | my calculus 2 crib sheet was a beauty | 05:54 |
| klafka | the tremendous amount of pressure most schools put on faculty to retain students | 05:54 |
| klafka | it's fucking ridiculous | 05:54 |
| cluckj | and the process of making a crib sheet is a learning process too! | 05:55 |
| archels | cluckj: quite right. | 05:55 |
| cluckj | yeah absolutely, the fact that students are paying a ridiculous amount of money makes the institution want to retain them | 05:55 |
| cluckj | haha, I'm not a professor yet | 05:55 |
| cluckj | I'm an advanced PhD student | 05:55 |
| klafka | oh ok | 05:56 |
| archels | I can't wait to do some TA-ing or actual teaching. | 05:57 |
| cluckj | archels it's really fun sometimes | 05:57 |
| archels | Don't think I would care enough to see a student cheating like this as a personal insult, though. | 05:57 |
| archels | It's just a game--you try to catch them, they try not to get caught. | 05:57 |
| cluckj | eh | 05:57 |
| klafka | it undermines the entire point of teaching archels | 05:58 |
| cluckj | I am *not* a policeman | 05:58 |
| klafka | exactly | 05:58 |
| archels | Well, you'll have to deal with it one way or another. | 05:58 |
| archels | There are also online services that do automated fraud checking. | 05:58 |
| archels | Used by plenty of teachers all over the world, afaik. | 05:59 |
| Utopiah | can you actually teach or rather just help people alrady willing to learn in the first place? if the 2nd option then you can't feel bad about cheaters IMHO | 05:59 |
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| cluckj | by actually engaging with students I can figure out if they're really learning or not | 05:59 |
| archels | cluckj: Which sounds like a very good method. | 05:59 |
| klafka | Utopiah, what? | 06:00 |
| klafka | how are you defining teaching? | 06:00 |
| cluckj | it usually works itself out | 06:00 |
| cluckj | the stuff I teach is pretty easy to learn if you pay attention | 06:00 |
| Utopiah | I meant you can't coerce people to learn, you can eventually get them to memorize simple things under pressure but to me actual learning comes from a desire of the person | 06:00 |
| cluckj | it's my damn job to make sure people can understand it | 06:01 |
| cluckj | Utopiah yes, and that's why I still hand out failing grades | 06:01 |
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| kanzure | looks like another 100kgarages/cloudfab/mfg.com http://makerfactory.com/ | 06:40 |
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| kanzure | livestream/aubrey de grey http://www.newamerica.net/events/2010/never_say_die | 06:46 |
| archels | kanzure: Where at in the schedule? Panel I? | 06:49 |
| archels | specifically Ana Maria Cuervo? | 06:49 |
| kanzure | looks like panel 1 yes | 06:50 |
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| superkuh | Now he's on. | 07:04 |
| archels | Not enough money for four mikes eh. | 07:21 |
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| twilightstar | hi | 07:42 |
| archels | hello | 07:42 |
| twilightstar | what is the main topic in this channel | 07:43 |
| twilightstar | biotech? | 07:43 |
| archels | There seems to be a high percentage of biologists here. | 07:45 |
| dbolser | bio++ | 07:46 |
| dbolser | archels: I think you'll get some info on your hunt for a school from ppl in htere | 07:46 |
| dbolser | here | 07:46 |
| klafka | lots of crossover though :P | 07:47 |
| twilightstar | ok | 07:47 |
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| dbolser | hey klafka | 07:49 |
| dbolser | ;-) | 07:49 |
| archels | I'm not hunting for a school per se, but it's good to know I'm among academics. :) | 07:49 |
| kanzure | hi twilightstar | 07:49 |
| klafka | :P | 07:50 |
| twilightstar | hi kanzure | 07:50 |
| kanzure | twilightstar: we talk about transhuman tech, human enhancement, manufacturing, diybio, open source hardware | 07:50 |
| twilightstar | any one in the online masters at jhu? | 07:50 |
| twilightstar | for biotech | 07:50 |
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| archels | kanzure: Any progress on the channel registration? | 08:00 |
| archels | heh, the laymen from the public asking questions all sound so nervous. | 08:01 |
| kanzure | archels: no progress :( | 08:04 |
| archels | Will nagging the opers help? | 08:05 |
| archels | and/or spamming their mailboxes. | 08:05 |
| kanzure | possibly | 08:05 |
| kanzure | i'm really at a loss for how to proceed | 08:05 |
| archels | What's the status so far? The request is basically in limbo, right? No yes, no no. | 08:06 |
| kanzure | i talked with them recently (within the past month) and they said "oh to expediate the process also send an email to xyz", so i did, but it's probably a blackhole | 08:06 |
| archels | mhrm, followup "dear sir/madam, sent mail, no reply, plz to be acknowledging" etc? | 08:07 |
| kanzure | plz to be acknowledged | 08:07 |
| kanzure | haha | 08:07 |
| kanzure | that's an indian phrase isn't it? | 08:07 |
| archels | I've no idea | 08:07 |
| kanzure | "please be the following" or something | 08:07 |
| archels | no hits for that +"native american" | 08:08 |
| kanzure | ferrouswheel: what is vzillion | 08:09 |
| kanzure | and why is ben goertzel "director of engineering" | 08:11 |
| ferrouswheel | kanzure: heh, if i knew I'd tell you. | 08:11 |
| archels | oh god is that a flash intro page. | 08:11 |
| ferrouswheel | urgh yes. their spiel kind of gets lost in the delivery mechanism | 08:13 |
| archels | oh, no, wait. That's their entire site. | 08:13 |
| archels | <!-- text used in the movie --> <!-- about, all, around, as, | 08:18 |
| archels | but, is, for | 08:18 |
| archels | nice keywords. | 08:18 |
| kanzure | bioethics.gov meeting is go | 08:24 |
| kanzure | http://www.tvworldwide.com/events/bioethics/101116/ | 08:24 |
| kanzure | details: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/401c6d5726437c14 | 08:24 |
| kanzure | oops, i should have explicitly said: | 08:25 |
| kanzure | stream: http://www.tvworldwide.com/events/bioethics/101116/ | 08:25 |
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| kanzure | genomera contest thingy http://blog.genomera.com/so-you-think-you-can-science | 08:42 |
| klafka | ahahaha | 08:42 |
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| kanzure | http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/distributed-manufacturing-milestone-or-hula-hoop/2010/11/12 | 09:18 |
| superkuh | ...haha! | 09:37 |
| superkuh | Did anyone else just hear that? | 09:37 |
| superkuh | "3D printing will mean money won't matter because we won't have to work for anything." | 09:38 |
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| cluckj | lol | 09:39 |
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| kanzure | haha ray kurzweil talking about 3d printing too | 10:04 |
| kanzure | http://www.kurzweilai.net/ask-ray-we-could-have-had-the-benefits-of-the-singularity-years-ago | 10:04 |
| kanzure | "I agree with you that open source software is a vital part of our world, allowing everyone to contribute. Ultimately, software will provide everything we need when we can turn software entities into physical products with desktop nanofactorie" | 10:04 |
| kanzure | "s (there is already a vibrant 3D printer industry and the scale of key features is shrinking by a factor of a hundred in 3D volume each decade). It will also provide the keys to health and greatly extended longevity as we reprogram the outdated software of life." | 10:04 |
| kanzure | "I believe we will achieve the original goals of communism ("from each according to their ability, to each according to their need"), which forced collectivism failed so miserably to achieve. We will do this through a combination of the open source movement and the law of accelerating returns (which states that the price-performance and capacity of all information technologies grows exponentially over time)." | 10:04 |
| kanzure | "But proprietary software has an important role to play as well. Why do you think it persists? If open source forms of information met all of our needs why would people still purchase proprietary forms of information. There is open source music but people still download music from iTunes, and so on. Ultimately, the economy will be dominated by forms of information that have value and these two sources of information — open source and proprietary â | 10:05 |
| kanzure | ray has always been more interested in proprietary tech i think | 10:05 |
| kanzure | oh neat there's a follow-up from the original submitter | 10:05 |
| archels | Ray needs an editor. | 10:08 |
| kanzure | you think he wrote TSiN? | 10:10 |
| kanzure | heh | 10:10 |
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| kanzure | "Advanced Design Optimization Lab" hmm sounds a little too much like ADL to me http://adoptlab.csufresno.edu/ | 10:15 |
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| kanzure | "that will really drive diybio underground because they will be up in arms (and rightly so) that we are requiring them to register anything they think they are doing" haha | 12:11 |
| kanzure | "anything they think they are doing" hee | 12:12 |
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| jmil | kanzure: link? | 12:20 |
| kanzure | jmil: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/401c6d5726437c14 | 12:21 |
| kanzure | jmil: stream: http://www.tvworldwide.com/events/bioethics/101116/ | 12:21 |
| kanzure | (they just went on break, and i'm not going to watch the rest of it) | 12:21 |
| kanzure | twilightstar: what brings you here? | 12:31 |
| twilightstar | well I was trying to learn more about biotech | 12:33 |
| twilightstar | I'm thinking of getting a masters | 12:33 |
| twilightstar | so it is always nice to know about the university from people going there | 12:34 |
| kanzure | uh, why do you think this channel is related to that masters degree? | 12:35 |
| twilightstar | not so much masters | 12:36 |
| twilightstar | I went to bioinformatics and asked about a channel that is related to biotech | 12:37 |
| twilightstar | and they sent me here | 12:37 |
| twilightstar | lol | 12:37 |
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| kanzure | crap it's on twitter now http://twitter.com/lepht_anonym | 14:18 |
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| jmil | thanks kanzure ! | 14:29 |
| kanzure | transcripts related to transhumanism http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/people-blog/ | 14:34 |
| kanzure | "Future Current" as michael refers to it | 14:34 |
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| futuresoon | scrapheap transhumanism, huh | 15:02 |
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| kanzure | hi Xeones-afk | 18:53 |
| kanzure | oh, futuresoon | 18:53 |
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| kanzure | wtf is up with that graphic http://hplusmagazine.com/editors-blog/problem-solved-new-h-magazine-project | 19:47 |
| kanzure | wtf http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2659/problemsolvednew.jpg | 19:47 |
| kanzure | wtf x2 http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9625/donatehorangelogo.jpg | 19:48 |
| kanzure | i .. i give up | 19:48 |
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| fenn | donate thx-1138! | 19:55 |
| fenn | the problem is more with the article content than the graphic | 19:56 |
| fenn | answer: donate to starving/parasite infested africans, duh | 19:57 |
| fenn | but that's not really what "transhumanism" is about now is it | 19:57 |
| kanzure | this is making me cry | 19:58 |
| kanzure | oh fwiw i have a git-based hardware hosting site written now | 19:58 |
| fenn | linky plz 1138 | 19:59 |
| kanzure | dave suggests i just make a javascript front-end website to github and call their restful api but i'm i'm experiencing NIH about "just use github for the git hosting" | 19:59 |
| kanzure | no link yet | 19:59 |
| kanzure | i need to figure out a ui, html goodness and such.. | 19:59 |
| fenn | is github even open source? | 19:59 |
| kanzure | no | 19:59 |
| kanzure | parts of it are (like backend daemons in some places) | 19:59 |
| kanzure | http://develop.github.com/ | 20:00 |
| fenn | so, er, that's not really a solution then | 20:00 |
| kanzure | sure it is | 20:00 |
| kanzure | one sec | 20:00 |
| kanzure | blah i can't find the name of the package | 20:01 |
| kanzure | but there's a compiler that takes json/yaml and turns it into a full javascript application | 20:02 |
| kanzure | he's right about the whole "this is just a different viewer for the same content in a git repo" thing | 20:02 |
| kanzure | and, it shouldn't really matter *where* the git repo is ultimately hosted.. but i'm inclined to say no on this one and just host them locally | 20:02 |
| fenn | yeah but you can't do any processing on that info that can't be done in javascript | 20:02 |
| fenn | i.e. rendering openscad files | 20:03 |
| kanzure | "everything can be done in javascript!" | 20:03 |
| kanzure | cloudscad.js :P | 20:03 |
| kanzure | raphael.js | 20:03 |
| kanzure | javascript > variables | 20:03 |
| fenn | yeah, and the lisp revolution is only 20 years away | 20:03 |
| kanzure | i found this hilarious http://dev.pocoo.org/~blackbird/github-vs-bitbucket/bitbucket.html | 20:03 |
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| fenn | i wish someone would hurry up and write a dvcs translation meta program so we could stop having this 'my dvcs is better than yours' flame war | 20:05 |
| kanzure | huh? there are a efw | 20:05 |
| kanzure | *are a few | 20:05 |
| kanzure | although there's some weird stuff in git that doesn't get converted into hg properly, last i looked | 20:05 |
| QuantumG | yeah, but your favourite dvcs meta program sucks | 20:05 |
| kanzure | personally i'm fine with git/hg/bzr | 20:05 |
| kanzure | fenn: what did you think of the ne-1 transcript email? | 20:07 |
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| fenn | i haven't read it yet | 20:11 |
| kanzure | what have you been up to | 20:13 |
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| kanzure | the moment you try to observe fenn he disappears | 20:25 |
| QuantumG | quantum fenn | 20:27 |
| QuantumG | Heisen-fenn | 20:28 |
| fenn | it's 2010 and we don't have a fast spheres and cylinders rendering library yet? | 20:34 |
| QuantumG | glut? | 20:35 |
| * fenn shrugs | 20:36 | |
| QuantumG | no.. libglu | 20:36 |
| QuantumG | does parametric cylinders and spheres | 20:36 |
| fenn | kanzure: so you have access to the cvs repo? | 20:37 |
| futuresoon | Some might argue that in its preference for "organic" food and concern over cellphone radiation and GMOs, the left has some of its own "anti-science" positions to answer for. http://www.hplusmagazine.com/editors-blog/top-five-cautions-futurists | 20:37 |
| fenn | might as well just put it up on github, it's gpl after all | 20:37 |
| futuresoon | i don't get it---does this guy dislike organic food and like gmos? | 20:37 |
| QuantumG | gmos rock | 20:38 |
| futuresoon | what's the difference between a gmo and an o? | 20:38 |
| QuantumG | gm? | 20:38 |
| QuantumG | (wtf?) | 20:39 |
| futuresoon | except for not, right? | 20:39 |
| fenn | O_0 | 20:39 |
| futuresoon | i'm saying all organisms incur genetic modification | 20:39 |
| QuantumG | oh, many things are labelled "organic" to mean that they're "ethical" | 20:39 |
| fenn | go read up on recombinant dna, sonny | 20:39 |
| QuantumG | and so on | 20:39 |
| fenn | QuantumG: no, that's not correct | 20:40 |
| futuresoon | organic most certainly is better than non-organic by a wide margin and on average | 20:40 |
| fenn | there's significant overlap between fair trade and organic purchasing market demographic, but most people know the difference | 20:41 |
| QuantumG | people label stuff "organic" even where there is no genetically modified alternate.. so clearly labelling shit "organic" is not just a backlash to GMO foods | 20:41 |
| fenn | and "organic" doesn't mean "not gmo" | 20:41 |
| kanzure | fenn: i'm getting access to the cvs repo sometime this week | 20:41 |
| kanzure | but yeah, it'll be on github, etc. | 20:41 |
| fenn | there's a whole raft of other stuff, but mostly it means no synthetic fertilizers or pesticides | 20:41 |
| fenn | oddly enough recombinant BT toxin is ok | 20:42 |
| QuantumG | anyway.. I recently said.. I'm calling for non-GMO foods to be labelled: as inferior. | 20:42 |
| fenn | that's stupid | 20:42 |
| fenn | you're just trolling | 20:42 |
| kanzure | racial purity of my food? | 20:42 |
| futuresoon | sickle cell anemia is the tribute racial purity pays to biodiversity | 20:43 |
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| fenn | quote i heard at work today, "pregnant republican feminists deserve to be blown up" | 20:44 |
| fenn | say it with an australian accent and you're gold | 20:44 |
| QuantumG | was that generated by a computer? | 20:44 |
| fenn | sort of | 20:45 |
| fenn | "it came from the internet" | 20:46 |
| kanzure | max more wants to make a "social network for transhumanists" | 20:48 |
| kanzure | sigh | 20:48 |
| futuresoon | moar soshul netwerks | 20:49 |
| fenn | didnt he do that in like 1980? | 20:49 |
| fenn | lol '"DNA tests are an anti-feminist appliance of science" that have "removed from women a powerful instrument of choice" to name the father she prefers.' | 20:49 |
| QuantumG | nice | 20:50 |
| fenn | someone's been taking too much fuckitol | 20:50 |
| kanzure | i pointed max at http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/people/ | 20:51 |
| kanzure | but it turns out michael didn't make that.. his "staff" did | 20:52 |
| fenn | what a bitch "That eminently sensible Jewish custom, whereby Jewishness is passed through the mother, was based on the fact that we only really knew who our mothers are" | 20:55 |
| QuantumG | I don't think a woman should have a right to child support in countries where abortion is legal, and she makes the decision to keep an unplanned pregnancy. I'd be happy to make an exception for people with religious convictions that prohibit them from having abortions.. although perhaps it should be her responsibility to ensure the man knows her convictions before copulating. | 20:56 |
| kanzure | what are you reading? | 20:56 |
| kanzure | and more importantly why | 20:56 |
| fenn | some random thing linked from hplusmagazine | 20:56 |
| fenn | though this is cool "how to build an electric telegraph in the wilderness, using nothing modern except information." | 20:57 |
| futuresoon | spark gap transmitter? | 20:57 |
| QuantumG | nope.. he builds a battery and that's it | 20:57 |
| QuantumG | it doesn't even make wire | 20:58 |
| QuantumG | s/it/he/ | 20:58 |
| kanzure | quick rollcall.. what transhumanists do we know in australia? mitchell porter, tony smith, trent, patrick mclaren, julian savulescu, .. | 21:00 |
| kanzure | am i missing anyone obvious/unobvious? | 21:00 |
| QuantumG | no idea.. what are those fellow aussies like? | 21:00 |
| fenn | heh if you watch the videos he's wearing a tuxedo of some sort while smelting copper | 21:00 |
| kanzure | fenn: gotta have pride in your work | 21:01 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: i'm not sure how to answer thta | 21:01 |
| kanzure | *that | 21:01 |
| kanzure | tasty? | 21:01 |
| QuantumG | ok, do they do anything? | 21:02 |
| kanzure | do you? | 21:02 |
| QuantumG | can't think of anything :P | 21:02 |
| kanzure | patrick does diybio-melbourne/cchs | 21:02 |
| kanzure | julian does random human enhancement podcasts | 21:02 |
| joshcryer | I know I am responding to something old. | 21:02 |
| QuantumG | joshcryer! | 21:02 |
| joshcryer | But many things are labeled organic because the people labeling are liars. | 21:02 |
| kanzure | tony.. writes scifi? | 21:02 |
| kanzure | mitchell.. i don't really know what he's up to | 21:03 |
| joshcryer | QuantumG :) | 21:03 |
| kanzure | and trent.. well | 21:03 |
| joshcryer | How do you humans handle your colds? | 21:03 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: you should meet trent sometime | 21:03 |
| joshcryer | Because this is the first I've had in 3 years and it is quite unbearable. | 21:03 |
| QuantumG | kanzure: I listen to "Trent from Australia" on The Space Show.. | 21:04 |
| joshcryer | QuantumG, haha, I'm so confused by what kanzure is saying. | 21:04 |
| QuantumG | joshcryer: I had something like food poisoning on the weekend .. probably from a hamburger. I'll take a cold instead. | 21:04 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: just listing people in australia. transhumanists. | 21:05 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, yeah, OK. I guess telling QuantumG to meet Trent was a joke. | 21:06 |
| kanzure | huh? | 21:06 |
| QuantumG | twas | 21:06 |
| kanzure | no i'm serious | 21:06 |
| joshcryer | Trent who? | 21:07 |
| kanzure | waddington | 21:07 |
| joshcryer | Haha, you're fucking with me. | 21:07 |
| joshcryer | Fuck you, I'm really out of it. | 21:07 |
| * QuantumG = Trent Waddington | 21:07 | |
| QuantumG | but you know this. | 21:07 |
| kanzure | hmm | 21:07 |
| kanzure | something is wrong with the internets | 21:07 |
| joshcryer | Yeah he's messing with me. :( | 21:07 |
| joshcryer | Or rather, I'm just being really stupid right now due to fever killing brain cells or whatever. | 21:07 |
| QuantumG | [that noise you hear is kanzure trying to figure out how his people tracking software failed to attack my nick to my name] | 21:10 |
| QuantumG | attach* | 21:10 |
| joshcryer | I'm so old school, I actually fill out the name field on my IRC client. | 21:12 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: the sound is me "fixing things" | 21:12 |
| QuantumG | joshcryer: did ya see the tables in http://unreasonablerocket.blogspot.com/ | 21:13 |
| QuantumG | pretty cool. | 21:13 |
| joshcryer | I lost all my logs for weeks there, dunno how long I was disconnected. :( | 21:13 |
| joshcryer | Oh that was posted today somewhere. Cool. Looking. | 21:13 |
| kanzure | fenn: please bug me about the hardware hosting site | 21:15 |
| kanzure | i might actually work on the ui/layout stuff | 21:15 |
| joshcryer | I saw this posted in another channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPB19tIQSUo | 21:16 |
| kanzure | you know how i'm always complaining about CSS? | 21:16 |
| joshcryer | And I thought... wow, that's how our drone killing machines will look. | 21:16 |
| kanzure | i think SASS may have fixed my CSS issues.. http://www.feedmagnet.com/blog/grid-design-with-sass/ | 21:16 |
| joshcryer | When we decide to destroy the worlds militaries. | 21:16 |
| joshcryer | :P | 21:16 |
| kanzure | holy shit variables in CSS \o/ | 21:16 |
| kanzure | .. sort of | 21:16 |
| joshcryer | QuantumG, MR = mass ratio? | 21:17 |
| QuantumG | yeah | 21:17 |
| QuantumG | obviously some gross / propellant style | 21:18 |
| QuantumG | I prefer propellant / gross myself | 21:18 |
| QuantumG | or dry / gross even | 21:18 |
| QuantumG | actually, it's probably gross / dry | 21:18 |
| QuantumG | yeah, that'd be it | 21:19 |
| QuantumG | m0/m1 | 21:19 |
| fenn | holy shit that is some amazing piloting | 21:21 |
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| joshcryer | Now just put some robot guided commands in it and we can solve the issues in, eg, Somolia, or Darfur or where ever. | 21:22 |
| joshcryer | QuantumG, where's this Breeds guy located? Can he fly this thing legally? I seem to recall the Nanosat guy saying that he'd need FAA clearance and lots of hoop jumping. | 21:23 |
| QuantumG | he goes out to FAR to fly | 21:23 |
| QuantumG | Friends of Amateur Rocketry | 21:23 |
| fenn | is that in black rock? | 21:25 |
| fenn | hm, mojave | 21:25 |
| QuantumG | yep | 21:26 |
| joshcryer | I think he's going to run in to problems once he starts suggesting orbital achievement though. | 21:26 |
| QuantumG | he's aiming to compete in the nanosat challenge | 21:27 |
| QuantumG | having NASA in your court really helps to get the FAA on side | 21:27 |
| joshcryer | Fair enough. | 21:28 |
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| futuresoon | i wish there was some sort of problem selection metric that would allow us to identify the important problems to solve | 21:41 |
| kanzure | http://humanityplus.org.au/ why does this say "rise of the citizen scientist" | 21:41 |
| fenn | ARISE, CITIZEN SCIENTIST | 21:44 |
| genehacker | anyone here following the Microsoft Kinect hacks? | 21:46 |
| QuantumG | I saw a few | 21:47 |
| fenn | jamie oshea gets up to some funny stuff http://www.substitutematerials.com/timetravel/timetravel.html | 21:47 |
| QuantumG | how much does one pay to get a working Kinect system to hack? | 21:47 |
| genehacker | $150 | 21:48 |
| QuantumG | really? plus the xbox 360 right? | 21:48 |
| genehacker | nope | 21:48 |
| genehacker | no xbox needed | 21:48 |
| QuantumG | ahh.. nice. So it's a $150 3d point cloud generator. | 21:48 |
| genehacker | $150 is 3 orders of magnitude cheaper than other similar systems on the market | 21:49 |
| QuantumG | yes | 21:49 |
| genehacker | it's not just a point cloud generator it's a point cloud generator that does 30 Hz | 21:49 |
| joshcryer | Nice. | 21:49 |
| joshcryer | I didn't hear about this. | 21:49 |
| QuantumG | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinect | 21:50 |
| QuantumG | it has a motorized pivot too? | 21:50 |
| genehacker | hell who even needs complicated robot vision processing when you have something like this | 21:51 |
| QuantumG | sheesh, that's awesome | 21:51 |
| QuantumG | is there a module for ROS yet? | 21:51 |
| QuantumG | yes, yes there is | 21:51 |
| QuantumG | http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/kinect-ros-awesome-slam?xg_source=activity | 21:51 |
| joshcryer | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free60 | 21:51 |
| joshcryer | LOL, I love stuff like this. | 21:51 |
| joshcryer | Man I want this. | 21:52 |
| genehacker | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRBozGoa69s | 21:52 |
| joshcryer | Took him a few hours: http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/10/we-have-a-winner-open-kinect-drivers-released-winner-will-use-3k-for-more-hacking-plus-an-additional-2k-goes-to-the-eff/ | 21:53 |
| QuantumG | http://www.ros.org/news/2010/11/kinect-drivers-for-ros-coming-together.html | 21:54 |
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| genehacker | so now what someone really needs to do with kinect is make a "get me a beer robot" | 21:55 |
| QuantumG | since yesterday I've been watching http://quantumg.net/wg/ | 21:56 |
| QuantumG | I'm up to video 89 of 116.. they're doing some great work. | 21:57 |
| QuantumG | Kinect + a pan-tilt camera will give you some good point clouds. | 21:58 |
| genehacker | you hardly even need the tilt part | 22:01 |
| genehacker | the only problem with kinect is the field depth | 22:01 |
| genehacker | it can't see things that are too close | 22:01 |
| QuantumG | how "too close"? I imagine the tilt will help | 22:01 |
| joshcryer | 1 meter too close. | 22:02 |
| joshcryer | There are videos of it in IR, which show the empty space of the projections. | 22:02 |
| joshcryer | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvvQJxgykcU | 22:03 |
| futuresoon | is there a standard in robot arm types? | 22:04 |
| futuresoon | cause it would be nice to build workflows for open source hardware around just a couple kinds of arms | 22:05 |
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| genehacker | what do you mean by standard? | 22:06 |
| genehacker | like standard configuration? | 22:06 |
| genehacker | like serial manipulator, SCARA, etc? | 22:07 |
| futuresoon | i mean if i have x-thing that human hands do y-thing to, how do i design the ergonomics of the handhold for the "average robot" | 22:07 |
| genehacker | very carefully | 22:10 |
| genehacker | but probably something like an amputee claw | 22:10 |
| genehacker | as those were found to be best after years of study | 22:10 |
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| futuresoon | then i hope everything's built around an amputee claw rather than trying to build a luke or anakin arm | 22:12 |
| genehacker | do you mean the end effector or the parts the end effector is manipulating? | 22:14 |
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| futuresoon | i'm saying i bet there's a lot of intelligence you can put into the items manipulated rather than the arms themselves | 22:14 |
| genehacker | so you can design for automatic assembly? | 22:15 |
| futuresoon | i'd go so far as to say you should have several types of arm, but one kind of floor, walls, layout | 22:15 |
| futuresoon | the important thing is what are you building, not how good can you pick and place | 22:16 |
| futuresoon | s/good/well | 22:16 |
| genehacker | so a work cell? | 22:16 |
| futuresoon | sure. why should the robotics be in the arm. why not put it in the factory floor | 22:16 |
| genehacker | I'm not quite sure what you mean... | 22:17 |
| futuresoon | i just mean that you could probably save a lot of resources in arm design if you have carefully laid out the parts the effector manipulates | 22:18 |
| futuresoon | just make a box that's a life support system, or that automatically makes a succession of products with economic value (same thing, really) | 22:19 |
| futuresoon | standardize that box with a kinect inside it | 22:19 |
| genehacker | so design the parts to be made to be easily assembled by robots | 22:19 |
| futuresoon | it's not a "robot" it's a "workflow" | 22:19 |
| futuresoon | if it so happens that something needs to freely wheel around all robot like on occasion, then that can happen too | 22:20 |
| futuresoon | all the better if it doesn't | 22:20 |
| genehacker | so at the current time, there are no robot work cells that can assemble multiple products without being reprogrammed to do so | 22:21 |
| futuresoon | are you asking me or telling me | 22:22 |
| genehacker | telling | 22:22 |
| genehacker | also it sounds like you are essentially refering to design for automatic assembly | 22:23 |
| genehacker | http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.12.4772 | 22:23 |
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| futuresoon | putting aside assembly, figuring out what the output should be, as well as what intermediate outputs to standardize, would go a long way | 22:25 |
| futuresoon | outputs of food, electricity, heat, treated water, etc. sound good | 22:25 |
| genehacker | more robots | 22:26 |
| genehacker | and more robots | 22:26 |
| genehacker | and microwave/light energy | 22:27 |
| futuresoon | putting out more robots, hmm | 22:27 |
| joshcryer | BTW, I found this torrent recently: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4859975/147_Books_on_Robotics | 22:27 |
| joshcryer | My brother was demanding I find conspiracy stuff for him and the hoster of that .torrent has a lot of that sort of crazy stuff. | 22:27 |
| futuresoon | see the robot sounds like an intermediate goal that should be more closely tied with identifiable end goals | 22:28 |
| genehacker | why not put out more robots? | 22:29 |
| genehacker | with robots of course | 22:29 |
| genehacker | robotic self-replication enables production to go exponential | 22:29 |
| futuresoon | well the complexity of building robots that can build robots is a lot greater than the complexity of building robots that can build anything you'd want for its own sake | 22:29 |
| joshcryer | genehacker, we'll get there eventually. ;D | 22:30 |
| futuresoon | first step is to get a kinect-enabled robot that can manage all the menial labor that frees up time to build a better robot | 22:31 |
| futuresoon | silly things like food, energy, wastewater treatment processes | 22:31 |
| futuresoon | shelter construction | 22:31 |
| futuresoon | a little nasa style life support system | 22:33 |
| genehacker | I'm not so sure about that | 22:33 |
| genehacker | define complexity | 22:33 |
| futuresoon | about the complexity being greater? | 22:33 |
| futuresoon | well, define robot | 22:33 |
| futuresoon | if you mean that the principal capital infrastructure should be replicable using itself, then yeah that's a goal | 22:34 |
| futuresoon | but is an xbox kinect principal capital infrastructure? | 22:34 |
| futuresoon | or something you buy once + spare at the store and move on | 22:34 |
| joshcryer | Maybe as a toy. | 22:35 |
| joshcryer | For research. | 22:35 |
| futuresoon | kinect is not a toy, it's a reality in robotics now | 22:36 |
| genehacker | brooks definition | 22:36 |
| futuresoon | it's just something you can't reproduce yourself, you rely on microsoft | 22:36 |
| genehacker | also define complexity | 22:36 |
| genehacker | can't? | 22:36 |
| futuresoon | complexity conditions the capacity for consciousness (not a definition i know) | 22:36 |
| joshcryer | Right, that's why I call it a toy. | 22:36 |
| genehacker | I don't like to say can't | 22:36 |
| joshcryer | Sorry, I'm hard line about this sort of thing. | 22:36 |
| genehacker | ... | 22:37 |
| futuresoon | doesn't mean it's a toy, just means it's an exotic part the system shouldn't be "dependent" on to work | 22:37 |
| joshcryer | It obviously has far more applications beyond a toy. | 22:37 |
| joshcryer | But one shouldn't tie their research to "Kinect." | 22:37 |
| futuresoon | no, it should be simple hardware and complex software and a kinect (for now cause it's cheap and available) | 22:37 |
| futuresoon | so that should be the new standard for robotics because it improves availability | 22:38 |
| futuresoon | but you can reduce software complexity by standardizing more and more hardware | 22:38 |
| futuresoon | you just need to version control what hardware problems are really "solved" | 22:38 |
| futuresoon | not to mention what problems you'd like to solve on a wide basis to improve adoption and most of all, just for the sake of actual, you know, progress | 22:39 |
| futuresoon | so i look at kinect plus a robot operating system and ask how i could integrate it into vermicomposting, aquaponics, living machines for wastewater treatment, CNC production of pre-fab houses | 22:40 |
| joshcryer | Is Kinect really the best solution for robotic spatial awareness? | 22:41 |
| joshcryer | I mean, for fabrication. | 22:41 |
| futuresoon | kinect is just a catch-all for anything chaotic that happens in your well-planned system i guess | 22:42 |
| joshcryer | Since a robot can assume, magically, that what isn't there isn't there in a fab space. It has full virtual understanding of what the fab space looks like. Even if it has no eyes, so to speak. | 22:42 |
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| futuresoon | i bet a kinect could print ikea like assembly instructions on translucent goggles where human assembly is needed | 22:43 |
| futuresoon | or at least on a monitor | 22:44 |
| joshcryer | Possibly, if you don't need high resolution. | 22:44 |
| futuresoon | you need less resolution if parts are standardized | 22:44 |
| futuresoon | which brings me back to putting the intelligence into the parts, not the robotics | 22:44 |
| futuresoon | paint similar but different parts red, green and blue if you have to | 22:45 |
| joshcryer | Since I don't have millions of dollars to invest in this sort of thing, my point of view is to keep as much of the thing virtual as possible. | 22:47 |
| futuresoon | if by millions you mean two | 22:48 |
| genehacker | put intelligence into the parts? | 22:48 |
| genehacker | you might like this then: www.roboticsproceedings.org/rss05/p16.pdf | 22:48 |
| joshcryer | am I missing a typo in that | 22:51 |
| joshcryer | 'cause it's not downloading | 22:51 |
| genehacker | it's downloading here | 22:53 |
| genehacker | probably a typo | 22:53 |
| futuresoon | works here | 22:53 |
| futuresoon | yeah the cyclic fabrication process is good | 22:53 |
| genehacker | so you read that before? | 22:53 |
| futuresoon | no but it's being done in real life here http://openfarmtech.org/weblog | 22:54 |
| futuresoon | reprap is just one of the technologies that, taken together, reproduce themselves | 22:54 |
| futuresoon | so it's reprap plus some other CNC XYZ tables | 22:54 |
| genehacker | plus some oil wells, plus catalytic crackers, plus iron mines, etc, etc | 22:55 |
| futuresoon | what are the oil wells and catalytic crackers for? | 22:56 |
| futuresoon | just plastic or something? | 22:56 |
| futuresoon | anyway, i guess it's all about starting with the low hanging fruit, always | 22:57 |
| futuresoon | anyway, i'm going to go pass out the better for waking up tomorrow | 22:57 |
| genehacker | I don't believe openfarmtech and and that paper have anything to do with each other... | 22:58 |
| futuresoon | A cyclic fabrication system (CFS) is a network of materials, tools, and manufacturing processes that can produce all or most of its constituent components. It is cyclic in the way the game “rock-paper-scissors” is cyclic: tools, materials, and fabrication processes are chosen such that one process creates tools used in the next process, which is used in the next, and so on until a final process produces tools needed to perform the | 23:00 |
| futuresoon | in the case of openfarmtech, the torch table cuts the legs for the torch table | 23:01 |
| genehacker | by itself? | 23:01 |
| genehacker | how are the motors made? | 23:01 |
| futuresoon | "or most of its constituent components" and "low hanging fruit" | 23:01 |
| futuresoon | also eventually hydraulic motors will be made with metal casting i would guess | 23:02 |
| futuresoon | hot rolling and cold rolling are planned for the future | 23:02 |
| futuresoon | not sure their relevance, it's probably casting anyway | 23:02 |
| futuresoon | anyway, there's a torch table / wood router / plasma table (3 in 1) | 23:02 |
| futuresoon | there's a printed circuit board table | 23:03 |
| genehacker | and how are the printed circuit boards made? | 23:03 |
| futuresoon | a reprap, a drill-mill-lathe 3-in-1 | 23:03 |
| futuresoon | printed circuit board table is another CNC XYZ machine running on an arduino | 23:03 |
| futuresoon | the precision on that may be tough, not sure | 23:03 |
| genehacker | how are the raw materials made? | 23:03 |
| futuresoon | but then again it's possible to make crappy boards | 23:03 |
| futuresoon | well, i usually leave commodities out of it | 23:04 |
| genehacker | how are the chips made? | 23:04 |
| futuresoon | the raw commodities | 23:04 |
| genehacker | that's no fun | 23:04 |
| futuresoon | now obviously the chips are an exotic material, but you COULD get to a 1990s level of fab | 23:04 |
| genehacker | or go all the way back to relay computers | 23:04 |
| futuresoon | if you want a 1990s level of chip fab, it can be done in a small town | 23:04 |
| genehacker | so what exactly makes a 1990s level chip fab? | 23:05 |
| futuresoon | anyway, i say why not compartmentalize the high hanging fruit and work on the rest | 23:05 |
| futuresoon | the factories weren't gargantuan then | 23:05 |
| futuresoon | they were actually pretty small | 23:05 |
| genehacker | what made them small? | 23:05 |
| fenn | sounds like kinect needs some reading glasses | 23:06 |
| futuresoon | what made them small, not sure. | 23:06 |
| futuresoon | all that thin-filminess and nanowhatchama i guess | 23:06 |
| futuresoon | and moore's lawitude | 23:07 |
| genehacker | did they do the silicon refining and wafer cutting in house? | 23:07 |
| futuresoon | i believe so | 23:07 |
| genehacker | from sand? | 23:07 |
| futuresoon | my understanding is that it looks like making bread or something. not really sure though | 23:08 |
| futuresoon | couldn't tell you what bread making is like either | 23:08 |
| genehacker | did they synthesize the mask chemicals in house? | 23:08 |
| futuresoon | you mean in a 1990s chip factory? | 23:08 |
| genehacker | yes | 23:08 |
| futuresoon | don't know a lot about them. all i've heard it that that was a turning point between reasonable to insource and not reasonable to insource | 23:09 |
| futuresoon | don't plan on learning a lot about it either. plan on just using exotic parts from broken computers lol | 23:10 |
| genehacker | though do you REALLY need microchips? | 23:10 |
| genehacker | exotic parts for what? | 23:10 |
| futuresoon | for arduinos you need ICs | 23:10 |
| genehacker | for an arduino, you need a very specific IC | 23:10 |
| genehacker | all ICs are not interchangeable | 23:10 |
| futuresoon | hence i just chalk the atmega up to another in the short list of truly exotic parts that are unobtainium to the system but not unobtainium in "the real world" | 23:11 |
| futuresoon | i think it's helpful to think how FEW parts are really as non-insource-able and then stop thinking about them | 23:12 |
| genehacker | what about electrodes for welders and plasma torches and what not? | 23:13 |
| futuresoon | well the power electronics are for future development | 23:13 |
| genehacker | also where do you obtain the copper? | 23:14 |
| futuresoon | it's simple for a caveman to obtain copper apparently | 23:14 |
| genehacker | I don't really see how you can obtain closure with something as complex as that | 23:15 |
| futuresoon | all it takes is six weeks of hard work plus information | 23:15 |
| futuresoon | well you can obtain closure on a lot of complex systems if you know you can bootstrap to the appropriate information management system | 23:15 |
| genehacker | do you have copper ore in your backyard? | 23:15 |
| futuresoon | no but you can bootstrap to transportation can't you | 23:15 |
| genehacker | or are willing to use a large soil processing unit to leach every bit of it from the soil? | 23:16 |
| genehacker | bootstrap to transportation? | 23:16 |
| genehacker | not sure what you mean by that | 23:17 |
| futuresoon | well i'm not thinking in those terms anyway | 23:17 |
| futuresoon | just start from the piles of junk sitting in landfills | 23:17 |
| futuresoon | you have a lot more options from there | 23:17 |
| genehacker | so how do you get the electrodes for welders? | 23:18 |
| genehacker | also I'm into full closure | 23:19 |
| futuresoon | well let's say it was some simple emergency welders then | 23:19 |
| genehacker | also how do you make the gases? | 23:19 |
| futuresoon | anaerobic digester | 23:19 |
| genehacker | are you going to make a gas liquefaction plant? | 23:19 |
| futuresoon | eventually solid oxide fuel cells | 23:19 |
| genehacker | no for welding | 23:20 |
| futuresoon | not sure | 23:21 |
| futuresoon | i don't think they're needed in emergency welding though | 23:21 |
| futuresoon | so you get degraded materials, but it works | 23:21 |
| futuresoon | (i think, don't know) | 23:21 |
| genehacker | so what processes would you carry out in your junk yard? | 23:22 |
| futuresoon | i'd like a vermicomposting operation, wastewater treatment function, and vermicompost aquaponics modular greenhouse | 23:22 |
| genehacker | hydrofluoric acid leach, carbothermal process? | 23:22 |
| futuresoon | my "global village construction set" wouldn't center on the tractor to manage arable land but rather would produce soil from worms | 23:23 |
| genehacker | greenhouses require plastic sheeting, plastic sheeting cannot be insourced | 23:23 |
| futuresoon | one pump manages an arbitrarily large number of aquaponic units with improved nutrient profile from the vermicompost, and that pump could be no-electricity | 23:23 |
| genehacker | what do you make the pumps from? | 23:24 |
| genehacker | how do you make the pump motors | 23:24 |
| futuresoon | the pump is made like this | 23:24 |
| futuresoon | you hollow out a tree | 23:24 |
| futuresoon | that's been cut in twain | 23:24 |
| futuresoon | to make a salvonious rotor | 23:25 |
| futuresoon | the salvonious rotor turns within an eccentric | 23:25 |
| futuresoon | the eccentric pumps a straight rod | 23:25 |
| futuresoon | that manages a membrane pump | 23:25 |
| futuresoon | of a sheep's stomach | 23:25 |
| genehacker | what do you make the membrane from? | 23:25 |
| genehacker | ok | 23:25 |
| genehacker | how long does that last? | 23:25 |
| futuresoon | i dunno, i made up the last part :-) | 23:26 |
| futuresoon | something durable and airtight is probably the fail point | 23:26 |
| futuresoon | for the membrane | 23:26 |
| futuresoon | everything else is just fire hardened wood and such | 23:27 |
| futuresoon | a bellcrank | 23:27 |
| genehacker | so what do you make the membrane from? | 23:27 |
| futuresoon | a deerskin, i dunno | 23:27 |
| genehacker | how long would that last? | 23:27 |
| genehacker | not really getting the point of all that | 23:28 |
| futuresoon | well the pump is in the fish pond | 23:28 |
| futuresoon | the water goes up to an aquaduct of potted plants | 23:28 |
| futuresoon | potted in vermicompost | 23:28 |
| futuresoon | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozvrp_uTH98 | 23:29 |
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| futuresoon | anyway, i have to walk the dog and go to sleep | 23:29 |
| futuresoon | i like that you're keeping me on my toes though, it's good | 23:29 |
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| phryk | futuresoon: you building rube goldberg machines in your garden? | 23:36 |
| genehacker | sounds like some sort of global village thing | 23:44 |
| genehacker | not entirely sure what it should accomplish though | 23:44 |
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