2010-11-30.log

--- Log opened Tue Nov 30 00:00:08 2010
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kanzureupcoming SETI announcement http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2010/nov/HQ_M10-167_Astrobiology.html05:36
archels"Spirit rover mysteriously unstuck, on-board camera image clearly shows three-digit hand"05:39
kanzurei'm hoping for cyborg sagan05:40
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archelsWe should just get on with building better neutrino detectors so we can tap into subspace radio.05:53
archelswoo, I just noticed that the chief editor of Neurocomputing is one of my old profs.05:55
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archelsDear lord, Hugo de Garis uses an @yahoo.com e-mail address.06:19
kanzureyeah a lot of people you'd otherwise respect don't know how to setup their own mail servers06:24
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archelsGoertzel also seems to like publishing his @gmail address right next to his ben@goertzel address.06:41
kanzurehm?06:43
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archelsDon't know why the redundancy.06:46
kanzurefitzsim: any ideas on why there's so many blank commits here? http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer-fixed/log/?ofs=550006:48
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JayDuggerGood morning, everyone.07:08
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kanzurefitzsim: hey, what do you make of these commits?08:30
kanzure595cae8186ed11a54c267aa2a47d9e9cae09d09608:30
kanzure270f4de3e289dbef469475b7b9d6a1cc1387afcd08:30
kanzure9ce3f07d4a8d72cb5c5efa4416442524179eaaba08:30
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fitzsimkanzure: they're not blank when I do: "git checkout <ref>; git diff HEAD^..HEAD"09:30
fitzsimkanzure: I did see a lot of empty log messages09:31
fitzsimkanzure: and gitg had trouble (or maybe was just slow) displaying the contents of some commits09:31
fitzsimwhich made me think they were blank, but on the command line they weren't09:31
kanzurethe git diff for this commit is wildly differing from the svn diff http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/weird_commit.txt09:38
kanzure(9ce3f07d4a8d72cb5c5efa4416442524179eaaba or r11019)09:38
kanzureoh it was moving files09:39
kanzurestill that doesn't explain why the commit message is "Moved remotely"- the move looks local to me..09:40
kanzureyeah especially with 52ab73a5cdf8bc64088550f4d2519d4fe5992b98 as the origin of the files09:45
kanzureok i'll just ignore those commits then09:45
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kanzurefitzsim: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/pairs.txt are the commits that i'm going to be fixing10:41
kanzurejust fyi.10:41
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fitzsimkanzure: ok, I didn't check them11:53
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fitzsimkanzure: so you're fixing the pairs of commits with matching timestamps, right?12:19
fitzsimkanzure: as opposed to all "Moved remotely" messages12:19
fitzsimkanzure: re: 9ce3f07d4a8d72cb5c5efa4416442524179eaaba, isn't the difference just that the SVN commit message shows just the directories moving, whereas git is showing all the files being moved?12:22
kanzurethat's how git shows files being moved yes (i realized my mistake a second later when i said "oh it was moving files")12:25
kanzurebut yes i'm fixing those pairs of commits12:25
fitzsimok12:31
fitzsimdepending how far you want to go you might even turn all the branches into first-class git branches12:32
fitzsimwhere, e.g. checking out remotes/origin/cad-ninad_20071211_selectMode_split would give you a full tree instead of just a subset of files12:33
fitzsimnot sure you could figure that out easily from the logs though12:33
kanzureyeah maybe i'll recover branch history too12:36
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer-fixed/log/?h=cad-ninad_20071211_selectMode_split12:36
kanzurei mean obviously this stuff existed before that first fcb5 commit12:37
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fitzsimdid you look at conkeror.git?12:50
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kanzuredraft brief overview video of humanity+ and its mission http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgm85XVhWzQ16:38
kanzureit's ben goertzel.16:38
bdesknice.  "out of the breadth of our mission comes some very specific action items ... creating beneficial artificial general intelligence" made me lol (not so specific?)16:47
bdeski guess i should clarify that 'beneficial artificial general intelligence' might mean something very specific to some people but to an audience reached by a youtube video it might not.16:52
kanzureyeah..16:57
kanzurei haven't re-routed my audio to let youtube use it16:58
kanzurewhat does the video say16:58
bdeskbut this was very informative as a draft overview of the plans for hplus, thanks.16:58
kanzurewhat plans?16:58
kanzureas director of r&d, i am not told any plans16:59
bdeskwell its mission.16:59
kanzurewhat's the mission again?16:59
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kanzureor at least your understanding after watching the video16:59
bdeskkanzure: you don't have an audio or transcript of the video?16:59
kanzurei haven't bothered to switch to pulse on linux16:59
kanzurei'm still on poor old alsa16:59
kanzureno i don't17:00
kanzurei was just asking for a quick summary of what those actual missions are or whatever17:00
kanzureplus it's beneficial to hear them from an "outsider"17:00
bdeskkanzure: well one specific item is the 'internet of things'17:00
kanzurehaha what17:01
bdeski had not heard that phrase before, but it reminded me of your project17:01
bdeskwell one of your many projects.17:01
kanzureoh "internet of things" is ranked up there with "cloud computing" these days17:01
bdeski see.17:01
bdeskhe mentioned r.u.serious has hplus plans for 2011, which i like the idea of.17:02
QuantumGwhy is vimeo so shit?17:03
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bdeskis there a google thingy that can auto-trascript the audio of the youtube?17:03
bdesktranscribe i guess that owuld be17:03
bdeskspeech to text17:04
QuantumG.. and considering that vimeo is so show, why do people keep using it?17:04
QuantumGbdesk: yes, youtube does that.. it's horrible though17:04
bdeski bet it could do this video. he tries to talk slow and there is no background audio17:05
QuantumGhow long is it?17:05
bdeskhow do i do this?17:05
bdesk5:4317:05
QuantumG5 minutes?17:05
kanzureit's probably for the thiel foundation thing17:05
kanzureaw crap17:05
kanzurehe's going to tell peter thiel to fund opencog on behalf of humanity+?17:06
QuantumGjust what opencog needs.. more paid programmers.. why do they even bother pretending its an open source project17:07
QuantumGif you wanna fund something for opencog, fund someone to manage the development.. herd the cats.. etc17:07
bdeskopencog is goertzel's AGI project?17:07
QuantumGyes17:08
kanzureQuantumG: open-source projects often do have paid programmers17:08
bdeskit is an open source software initiative17:08
QuantumGkanzure: they're usually the minority though.. and are paid by a number of sources that want to actually use the software.17:09
QuantumG.. and don't get special treatment.17:10
QuantumGthat said, opencog is certainly more open than, say, Qt17:12
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bdeskkanzure: you are going to their dec. san francisco conference?17:23
kanzureyou mean los angeles17:26
kanzureand yeah :)17:26
kanzurei'm speaking apparently17:26
bdeskoh los angeles.  the video specifically mentions anti-aging research with respect to this conference.17:28
kanzureaubrey is showing up.17:30
bdeski think he said a bunch of researchers in this area, but maybe i misheard or he was exaggerating.  i still haven't found a way to get a transcript from the audio...17:30
bdeskwait doesn't kurzweil do speech to text, and isn't a big part of this channel dedicated to kurzweil fanboyism?  maybe i could get some help here?17:33
bdeskoh i see that the internet of things isn't about things going through the tubes, it is about the things that you already have acting as tubes for 'social data'17:34
kanzurewe don't do kurzweil fanboyism17:36
kanzuremore like kurzweil character assassination17:36
bdesko17:37
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kanzurehi lepton17:37
leptonkanzure17:37
leptonI was hoping you'd be around17:38
leptonI'm doing an ignite talk on cool things hackerspaces have accomplished17:38
leptonSo I thought I'd solicite you for ideas17:38
kanzurebdesk: another article just went up17:38
kanzurehttp://hplusmagazine.com/editors-blog/michael-rose-aubrey-de-grey-contrasting-views-biological-immortality-humanity-caltech-c17:38
bdeskl0pht was a hacker space and they invented buffer overflow hax17:39
JayDuggerGood evening, everyone.17:39
kanzurelepton: lookup copenhagen subortbital, and maybe one of the hackerspaces defcon videos17:40
leptonoh yeah, copenhagen suborbital is on our list17:40
leptonIt's too damn cool to forget!17:40
kanzurelepton: maybe biocurious, but that's more upcoming than established17:41
kanzurehttp://earth.hackerspaces.org/17:41
kanzureor maybe one of the fablab presentations (like on ted talks)17:41
leptonyep yep17:42
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bdeskmaybe some hackerspaces have accomplished spinning off cool for-profit corporations17:47
bdeski still cant' make the youtube give me a transcript, but i found an article that i think said that google uses speech recognition to improve search.17:49
bdeskso like you type a thing and google shows you a video where they say that thing.  but they don't actually show you the transcript.17:49
QuantumGyou upload the video to youtube.. it makes a transcript17:49
bdeskso i cna't have it scan one that is already up?17:50
QuantumGyou can edit the transcript.. or replace it with your own (which almost everyone does cause their autotranscripts suck)17:50
QuantumGno17:50
kanzurebdesk: i'll watch it later17:50
bdeski guess i could rip the youtube video or at least the audio part and then upload my own dupe video and ask for the autotranscript17:51
bdeskkanzure: i'm interested in speech to text technology too, not just getting the transcript for this one video.17:51
QuantumGyeah.. or just transcribe it yourself if you want a transcript.. if what you want is a substitute for watching the video, it won't be.17:51
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bdeskmaybe when we have beneficial artificial general intelligence in a few years the speech to text will come automatically and in a socially responsible way17:55
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JayDuggerWhat do you mean by the phrase "socially responsible way?"17:56
bdeskJayDugger: i mean in a way that gets the future right.17:58
kanzuremechanical turk == socially responsible? :P17:58
JayDuggerI didn't mean that as a Socratic question. I really didn't understand its meaning.17:59
bdeskkanzure: that's actually a legit question i think17:59
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bdeskJayDugger: not just the technology but making the technology really work for all of us, and those who come after us.18:01
QuantumGyawn18:04
QuantumGcan't even make it work let alone make it ponies and sunflowers18:04
kanzureis pony technology socially responsible?18:05
kanzurenot everyone has pony dony18:05
kanzurewhat theh ell18:05
kanzurei meant to type "not everyone has pony dna"18:05
bdeskQuantumG: "2010-11: simple English conversation and imitation/reinforcement learning"18:08
bdeskthis would probably have to involve some amount of speech understanding.  although i guess 'english conversation' could mean texting.  or even if it 'understands' speech this doesn't necessarily mean that it could transcribe it into written text.18:09
bdeskkanzure: "the primary unit of labor on the site is a task (rather than an hour, or a project), so posters needn't worry about minimum wage laws, overtime, health insurance, or other policies designed to protect workers."18:15
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JayDuggerI wonder what legal treatment such piecework actually gets.18:19
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kanzurebdesk: did you know about mechanical turk?18:20
bdeskyes i've heard of it18:21
bdeski knew it was a chess playing hoax a long time ago and then a clever name for an amazon service where you pay people per task, often a micropayment for some job that would be annoying to automate.18:22
QuantumGapparently ROS has some modules that farms out the computer vision tasks to the MT.. which I guess is only possible because the P2 is so damn slow.18:22
QuantumGthey only used it in one project I think18:23
JayDuggerEww...I dislike that. I don't mind a robot watching me, but someone looking through its cameras?18:24
JayDuggerI suppose a lot of practices that vanished when people stopped hiring domestic servants will return as robots become more sophisticated.18:25
bdeskyes in the future we will have robot maids like in the jetsons18:25
QuantumGit's not like that.  It has a task like "pick up the cup" and it's vision system can identify that there's cups on the table, but not exactly where the cups are.. so it sends a picture of the table to the cloud and the kids in the sweatshops draw boxes around the cups..18:26
QuantumGit uses the resulting data right away, but it also stores it away and runs learning algorithms on it.. the next time it does the task it performs better, and eventually doesn't need to farm any of the processing out.18:27
bdeskthey should make one that plays chess18:28
JayDuggerI don't much mind that actual practice, QuantumG, the principle and potential for abuse bothers me more.18:28
QuantumG.. and presumably the kids go back to solving captchas18:28
JayDuggerI doubt we'll have robot maids a la The Jetsons anytime soon. A general-purpose robot sufficient for housekeeper work would have many other and more valuable uses.18:29
bdeskthey go back to looking at the TSA nudie pics for smuggled items18:29
QuantumGpersonally, I wonder if you could make a dirt cheap teleoperated robot and leverage offshore "labor" remotely.18:30
bdeskthe TSA should use mechanical turk for its scanners18:30
JayDuggerYeah. :) As an aside, the TSA had its scanners turned off at KDEN and KDFW when I traveled over the holiday.18:30
JayDuggerNo enhanced pat-down.18:30
JayDuggerAnd the TSA should stop doing its security theater performances. 18:30
QuantumGthey didn't boil that frog slow enough18:30
JayDugger:) You ever read Nick Szabo's blog post on "How Our Frog Was Boiled."?18:31
kanzureno pat down during the holiday? 18:31
JayDuggerCorrect.18:31
kanzurebut they are missing the bulk of travelers18:31
bdeskwait i thought you guys wanted your consciousnesses uploaded into the cloud.  how much more personally invasive of privacy can you get than that?18:31
kanzurebdesk: fuck the cloud18:32
QuantumGI bet you can these days18:32
kanzuremaybe a few copies in "the cloud" but honestly i want my own servers18:32
JayDuggerAssuming such a thing is possible, and assuming it would be public, both of which I doubt but will allow for the argument's sake--18:32
JayDuggerso what? It beats being dead.18:32
JayDuggerI had two problems with the TSA, both at KDEN.18:33
JayDuggerOne, extremely long lines. That happens because KDEN has bad architecture, like Kansas City's airport.18:33
JayDuggerTwo, a lecherous old goat reviewing boarding passes who gave extra attention to every female in his line.18:34
JayDuggerThis made the line go very slowly.18:34
JayDuggerI think you could outsource specific teleoperated tasks, such as folding clothes.18:34
JayDuggerCould you do that more cost-effectively than hiring local manual labor? Some places, sure.18:35
bdeskkanzure: your talk is about the debian-for-items or about the open-physical-item-modeling-software or something?18:35
kanzurebdesk: i'm just giving a general talk on reprap and the gada prize18:35
kanzurehttp://gadaprize.org/18:35
JayDuggerRight now teleoperation only happens where humans fit poorly in the system (pilots and other aircrew) or where remote operation costs little more than direct operation (system administration).18:36
kanzureeh.. http://hplusmagazine.com/editors-blog/top-5-human-enhancement-must-haves18:36
JayDuggerOther examples? 18:37
kanzurefairly basic article.. just a giant list?18:37
kanzurebrain/body enhancement is missing i/o throughput18:37
JayDuggerNo LASIK?18:37
JayDuggerOnly what you can't yet get?18:37
kanzureheh dunno18:38
bdeskthe 'replaceable genes' sounds ambitious18:38
JayDuggerHair dye is an enhancement, but at one extreme of the range.18:38
kanzurei don't know what that means18:38
kanzuredoes she mean retroviral/lentiviral therapy?18:38
bdeski guess it is not unreasonable.18:39
JayDuggerI assume so. The editor might have caught vaguely phrased statements. :/18:39
bdeskespecially compared to 'seamless relay between platforms, avatars and syn-bios'18:40
bdeskwhich i'm pretty sure means uploading your consciousness to the cloud.18:41
bdeskthe TSA will scan your consciousness as it is being uploaded.18:41
kanzurehave you been practicing this?18:41
bdeskbut maybe that's what the finessed emotions helper is for18:41
bdeskwat18:42
QuantumGwhat another word for ontology?18:45
bdeskkanzure: the idea behind the gada prize looks pretty interesting to me.  i know that they have been wanting to print electrictronically relevant parts, or at least usefully conductive.18:45
QuantumGwhat's the word for "a hierarchical classification system"18:45
bdeskQuantumG: taxonomy18:45
QuantumGTaxonomy18:45
QuantumGthanks18:46
kanzurethere's been a number of conductive prints done on a reprap before18:46
kanzuredunno about usefully conductive though ;)18:46
QuantumGguess I can ask the question I was trying answer.. is there a standard taxonomy for protein function?18:47
kanzureactually yes18:47
kanzurehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EC_number18:47
kanzurebut this is primarily for catalysis in enzymes18:47
QuantumGAntibodies, Contractile Proteins, Enzymes, Hormonal Proteins, Structural Proteins, Storage Proteins, Transport Proteins <- that's the closest I've found.. and it's pretty flat18:48
kanzurehttp://www.pantherdb.org/18:49
kanzurehttp://reactome.org/ (honestly i preferred the older version with the diagram on the front page)18:49
bdeskQuantumG: there is a protein folds/sub-family/family/superfamily hierarchy i think18:49
QuantumGyeah, that's structure not function though18:49
bdeskQuantumG: or maybe SCOP, CATH, and InterPro have their own18:50
bdeskoh18:50
bdeskstructure is usually very related to function in proteins.18:50
QuantumGwhat I love about microbiology.. they have so much trouble with the basics.18:51
QuantumG"what sort of thing is this?"18:51
kanzurethis isn't microbiology18:52
QuantumGmolecular biology18:52
kanzure(just fyi)18:52
QuantumGsorry.18:52
kanzurethat's better :)18:52
bdeskQuantumG: looking at your list, maybe you want a hierarchical classification of all of the things that a cell does, and then lists of which proteins participate in each cellular function?18:52
QuantumGmicrobiology does suck at the taxonomies too though.. but at least they have 'em.18:52
QuantumGbdesk: sure, if you've got one18:53
bdeskprotein function isn't like the dewey decimal system.  proteins can function in more than one cellular process.18:53
bdeskQuantumG: there is GO18:54
bdeskQuantumG: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Ontology18:54
bdeskhttp://amigo.geneontology.org/cgi-bin/amigo/browse.cgi18:58
QuantumGantioxidant activity, binding, catalytic activity, channel regulator activity, chemoattractant activity, chemorepellent activity, electron carrier activity, enzyme regulator activity, metallochaperone activity, molecular transducer activity, morphogen activity, nucleic acid binding transcription factor activity, nutrient reservoir activity, protein binding transcription factor activity, protein tag, receptor regulator activity, structural molecule a19:00
QuantumGctivity, transcription regulator activity, translation regulator activity, transporter activity 19:00
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QuantumGand the cellular_component tree is pretty good too19:03
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bdeskkanzure: is the dec31 2012 a deadline for the prize, when the prize will be discontinued?19:07
JayDuggerGood night, everyone.19:09
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kanzurebdesk: yep. after that point if none of the submissions have qualified humanity+ will decide what to do with the prize money (i.e., extend the date, whatever)19:10
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kanzurefitzsim: well. it sort of worked.. but not really. git is having trouble keeping track of revision history of the individual files through the move19:29
kanzuresubtree merge might work http://pastebin.com/ZJRrBxd419:30
kanzureanother option is to make up some more fake commits so that the filenames aren't renamed until after the merge19:33
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kanzuregreg bear married poul anderson's daughter?20:32
kanzureyeah that's not incestuous in the slightest..20:32
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