| --- Log opened Sat Dec 11 00:00:08 2010 | ||
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| Utopiah | NEC Dew - Records and Attaches Emotional Data to Pictures http://www.diginfo.tv/2010/12/10/10-0256-r-en.php | 06:25 |
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| delinquentme | hurro!! | 08:43 |
| kanzure | hello | 08:46 |
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| delinquentme | id love to get some feedback on this idea :D http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/45553-looking-for-biomed-research-expertise/ | 08:53 |
| delinquentme | anyone w something to say .. feel free to yap to me about it | 08:53 |
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| bdesk | hi | 09:14 |
| bdesk | did you guys see that subtractive reprap like thingy? | 09:14 |
| bdesk | http://www.mydiycnc.com/ | 09:18 |
| bdesk | it is trending on the intertubes | 09:18 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, u ever heard of cloudfab? | 09:18 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: is there a list of cool things people have made with it? | 09:20 |
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| delinquentme | umm good question ... he usually says "anything" haha but i should ask him about that ... i saw one of his models the other day ... blew my head man | 09:20 |
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| kanzure | bdesk: re: mylilcnc you should read http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1905510&cid=34517124 | 09:25 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: if you like cloudfab you should try mfg.com (they've been doin' it longer) | 09:25 |
| kanzure | i do like cloudfab's "raining gears" graphic though http://cloudfab.com/media/images/how_graphic.jpg | 09:26 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, the founder is a buddy of mine :D | 09:26 |
| kanzure | steve? | 09:26 |
| delinquentme | steve WAS the programmer | 09:26 |
| kanzure | pinkcston | 09:26 |
| kanzure | *nick pinkston | 09:27 |
| delinquentme | pinkston yeahh | 09:27 |
| delinquentme | haha how du guys know this shit? | 09:27 |
| kanzure | ? it's my job to know these things | 09:27 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: kanzure is like the NSA for this stuff | 09:27 |
| delinquentme | hahah! | 09:27 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: now he knows that you know that he knows... | 09:27 |
| kanzure | it's true http://diyhpl.us/cgit/meetlog/plain/meetlog.txt | 09:27 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, this is unreal .. is that your like list of contacts? | 09:28 |
| kanzure | yes | 09:29 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: it is the list that Ed You pays him to compile | 09:29 |
| kanzure | haha i wish | 09:29 |
| delinquentme | haha im still lost | 09:30 |
| delinquentme | wild though | 09:30 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: and probably half of the people on that list have written manifestos like the one you posted on your forum. | 09:32 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, well i kinda imagined it would be a common thought | 09:36 |
| kanzure | LA/GRG groupie has founded an autologous adult stem cell startup (for wound healing.. stuff) today | 09:36 |
| kanzure | bioelectric research corp http://www.bioerc.com/ | 09:36 |
| delinquentme | but theres TONS of people who have patents and stuff on it .. but no one does anything with it | 09:36 |
| bdesk | i like how their homepage is a single image file | 09:40 |
| delinquentme | baaahaha | 09:41 |
| delinquentme | thats kinda awesome | 09:41 |
| delinquentme | it seems like MANY bio companies thats the dig haha ... like someone made this thing in 98 | 09:41 |
| delinquentme | Oh and i read something today about some russian scientist whos claiming to have a cure aging pill | 09:42 |
| delinquentme | and he talks about .. not extending life .. but extending YOUTH | 09:42 |
| * delinquentme checks his channel | 09:42 | |
| * delinquentme check! checked himself | 09:42 | |
| delinquentme | which conveys much better what were after | 09:42 |
| bdesk | http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/153890/larry-king-show | 09:47 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, lol | 09:48 |
| delinquentme | PS .. BTW . .. arent pluripotent cells just as good as embryonic? | 09:49 |
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| kanzure | so far i haven't heard anything to the contrary.. | 09:50 |
| bdesk | i think that there is something called 'totipotent' which might be less differentiated than pluripotent. | 09:50 |
| bdesk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_potency | 09:50 |
| delinquentme | wooties :D | 09:51 |
| delinquentme | i had a convo w my mum about living forever | 09:52 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: you are not going to be able to afford to live forever | 09:52 |
| delinquentme | shes wants to die bc people she knew died | 09:52 |
| delinquentme | thats weird. | 09:52 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: the russian you are thinking of is Vladimir Skulachev <skulach@belozersky.msu.ru> | 09:52 |
| kanzure | something about skq1 | 09:52 |
| bdesk | did that caltech thing happen yet? i forget when it was supposed to be. | 09:53 |
| kanzure | bdesk: yep. dec. 4th/5th | 09:53 |
| bdesk | how was it | 09:53 |
| kanzure | it went better than i thought it would.. | 09:53 |
| bdesk | how was your talk and the aging debate | 09:54 |
| kanzure | my talk went fine (i still need to upload it to youtoob) | 09:54 |
| kanzure | the aging debate was the same-old same-old so i didn't listen to it | 09:54 |
| kanzure | but i did have a round with aubrey at the pub.. that was fun | 09:54 |
| delinquentme | 2,3-dimethylhydroquinone bound through decane to a triphenylphosphine | 09:54 |
| delinquentme | simply put i fail to see how any other pursuit is even worth it | 09:55 |
| delinquentme | if you're a creationist i can see why not | 09:55 |
| delinquentme | but if youre not .. eh | 09:55 |
| bdesk | Life and death appeared to me ideal bounds, which I should first break through, and pour a torrent of light into our dark world. | 09:56 |
| bdesk | kanzure: i imagine he would not go for alcohol | 09:57 |
| kanzure | aubrey? he drinks like crazy | 09:57 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19120018 | 09:57 |
| bdesk | lol | 09:57 |
| delinquentme | nope! the dude digs it haha | 09:57 |
| delinquentme | OOO! you guys would know this | 09:57 |
| delinquentme | what are all these short codes that people in bio use | 09:57 |
| kanzure | i only recently saw this but really his wikipedia article is p. good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey_de_Grey | 09:58 |
| delinquentme | that skq1 thing | 09:58 |
| kanzure | compared to all of the other awful wikipedia entries on transhumanist stuff :/ | 09:58 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: usually gene names | 09:58 |
| kanzure | skq1 is just a nickname for plastoquinonyl-decyl-triphenylphosphonium kind of like a brand name for a drug :P | 09:59 |
| delinquentme | is it some arbitrary number? | 10:00 |
| delinquentme | it doesnt look like it corresponds?? | 10:00 |
| delinquentme | number = alpha numeric :D | 10:00 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, where can i find the full text of this? | 10:02 |
| bdesk | http://singularityhub.com/tag/skq1/ | 10:03 |
| bdesk | it removed a cataract from his eye omg!!1!!!11! | 10:03 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: http://content.imamu.edu.sa/Scholars/it/VisualBasic/bcm_1329.pdf | 10:03 |
| delinquentme | got it! | 10:04 |
| delinquentme | thanks | 10:04 |
| delinquentme | btw | 10:04 |
| delinquentme | http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/interview-of-gene-sequencing-expert.html | 10:04 |
| delinquentme | i <3 this guy | 10:04 |
| kanzure | well, you'd be super excited if you had funding/money too | 10:04 |
| kanzure | i suspect the andregg brothers just happened to know the right people or something | 10:05 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, yeah lol | 10:05 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, they know how to work the VC game | 10:05 |
| delinquentme | and come on .. if we could program DNA like i program rails | 10:05 |
| delinquentme | EFFFfff | 10:05 |
| delinquentme | id be making myself girlfriends | 10:05 |
| delinquentme | oh wait.. they'd still have to grow up .. jettison that | 10:05 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: sk is for skulachev | 10:06 |
| kanzure | bdesk: you sure? | 10:06 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: q1 is for quinone | 10:06 |
| bdesk | kanzure: yes | 10:06 |
| delinquentme | quinone | 10:07 |
| delinquentme | and that ties into ? | 10:07 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: plastiquinonyl | 10:07 |
| kanzure | plastoquinone | 10:07 |
| delinquentme | OH! | 10:07 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastoquinone | 10:07 |
| delinquentme | SO | 10:08 |
| delinquentme | taken into consideration these guys arent in the US | 10:08 |
| delinquentme | they dont have to deal w the FDA... so like they take rusky prisoners and make em eat it right? | 10:08 |
| kanzure | i think russia has an FDA-like entity | 10:08 |
| delinquentme | and if they're not dead the next day its approved for public consumption right? | 10:09 |
| bdesk | they take a mouse and make it eat it | 10:09 |
| bdesk | also you can double median lifespan without extending max lifespan | 10:10 |
| delinquentme | SERIOUSLY weve got the dudes who are working on BioCoder .. employed by microhard .. and doing nothing | 10:10 |
| delinquentme | Ehhhhhh | 10:10 |
| uniqanomaly_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noopept this is insane | 10:10 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, you mean stay younger .. but die @ same age? | 10:11 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, ^^ so its like adderalL? | 10:11 |
| uniqanomaly_ | to 1k times more potent than piracetam where pramiracetam is just 8-30x times more potent | 10:11 |
| uniqanomaly_ | nootropic | 10:11 |
| uniqanomaly_ | GABA receptors | 10:12 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: i just mean that when you do tests on mice that die at various ages then you can increase the age at which half the mice are still alive without increasing the age at which the oldest mouse is still alive | 10:12 |
| uniqanomaly_ | Adderall is stimulant | 10:12 |
| delinquentme | ohhh | 10:12 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, you've lost me | 10:13 |
| delinquentme | nm | 10:13 |
| delinquentme | googling! | 10:13 |
| uniqanomaly_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic | 10:13 |
| uniqanomaly_ | a 'little' list | 10:13 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, sooo these dont pass the american FDA? | 10:14 |
| kanzure | i used to have a list of nootropic stuff over here http://heybryan.org/leveraging-nootropics.html | 10:14 |
| kanzure | man, it's weird having heybryan.org back up | 10:14 |
| delinquentme | or drug companies pay to keep them out? | 10:14 |
| kanzure | i should probably fix the content/pages | 10:14 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, are you the dude form heybrian?? | 10:14 |
| bdesk | to me it seems like stimulants are not healthy because otherwise your body would make them naturally in the right quantities, but i assume that this is a minority luddite opinion here. is there a good argument against this? | 10:15 |
| uniqanomaly_ | delinquentme: THE dude, lol | 10:15 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, i <3 caffeine :D | 10:16 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, lol oh thats cool ... ive seen the website a few times :D | 10:16 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: yes i'm heybryan.org | 10:16 |
| delinquentme | my websites arent as informative .. but they're pretty :D | 10:16 |
| kanzure | also i apologize for how awful the site is | 10:16 |
| delinquentme | slightly usable :P | 10:16 |
| uniqanomaly_ | bdesk: if youre crazy enough you can mix stimulants with anxiolytic drugs | 10:17 |
| kanzure | yeah i don't care about css or looks much | 10:17 |
| kanzure | unless you pay me piles of cash | 10:17 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, it just looks like a programmer made it :D | 10:17 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: you can put his website on rails | 10:17 |
| delinquentme | ja ja ja | 10:17 |
| delinquentme | www.black-glass.com is my current | 10:18 |
| delinquentme | its old though | 10:18 |
| delinquentme | my RIGHT NOW project is top secret u know | 10:18 |
| delinquentme | id tell you but id have to kill you, but i dont anyone to die so literally, youll just never know. | 10:18 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: i thought you wanted to democratize research | 10:19 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, for what ends? | 10:19 |
| delinquentme | to make $$? fuck that. | 10:19 |
| delinquentme | so i dont have to test out my moms pearly gate hypothesis | 10:20 |
| kanzure | i prefer django over rails | 10:20 |
| kanzure | but i don't really see a strong need to put my homepage on top of django or rails | 10:20 |
| kanzure | maybe ikiwiki and a git repo but that's about it. | 10:20 |
| delinquentme | eh ppl go on and on about frameworks | 10:21 |
| delinquentme | use what works | 10:21 |
| bdesk | you should just make a facebook like everyone else | 10:21 |
| bdesk | that way they wont think you are weird | 10:21 |
| delinquentme | facebook1337 | 10:21 |
| kanzure | ok updated http://diyhpl.us/cgit/meetlog/log/ | 10:21 |
| kanzure | ph33r | 10:21 |
| delinquentme | oh so back to skq1 ... | 10:22 |
| delinquentme | so lets say the russian clinical trials work | 10:22 |
| delinquentme | what happens then? | 10:22 |
| kanzure | the professor probably has a company under which the trials are being executed | 10:23 |
| kanzure | .ru university gets a cut from some sort of patent transfer/cross licensing agreement | 10:23 |
| kanzure | big pharma probably won't touch the drug so he'll get a few investors | 10:24 |
| kanzure | in 10 or 15 years it'll end up as some expensive product on some shelf | 10:24 |
| kanzure | every university has an "office of technology commercialization" if you haven't seen yet | 10:26 |
| delinquentme | check. | 10:27 |
| delinquentme | well phuck if that works i can move onto other projects ?? | 10:27 |
| kanzure | ? | 10:27 |
| kanzure | there's no silver bullet- this is not a wonder drug | 10:27 |
| delinquentme | explain plz | 10:27 |
| delinquentme | ( im a programmer) | 10:28 |
| bdesk | kanzure: good to see ur signing NDAs. next you can help pillage teh hackerspaces for startups | 10:28 |
| kanzure | bdesk: :( | 10:28 |
| kanzure | i feel really bad about signing NDAs | 10:28 |
| kanzure | i signed one for halcyon molecular | 10:28 |
| kanzure | and was very disappointed | 10:28 |
| kanzure | this stuff could be derived from first principles | 10:29 |
| kanzure | in fact, half of it was stuff i've already looked into and thought was the right way forward (the rest is what they think is magic sauce, but not really) | 10:29 |
| delinquentme | first principles? | 10:29 |
| kanzure | i.e. sitting around on your ass | 10:29 |
| bdesk | at this point i think you are more demonstrably pro-ip than i am | 10:29 |
| kanzure | of course, execution matters, but it helps to know a good direction | 10:29 |
| kanzure | wow | 10:29 |
| kanzure | bdesk: that hurts man :( | 10:29 |
| delinquentme | was there a missing letter ? | 10:30 |
| delinquentme | pro-ipo? | 10:30 |
| bdesk | and i love ip :D | 10:30 |
| kanzure | i'm very much against IP/IPR | 10:30 |
| delinquentme | OHHH | 10:30 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: intellectual property | 10:30 |
| delinquentme | jsut googled | 10:30 |
| bdesk | although i realize that intellectual property is not necessarily the same thing as signing a contract saying to to discuss certain things, but it is close. | 10:31 |
| bdesk | *not to | 10:31 |
| kanzure | i need to upload these somewhere: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/longevity_papers.txt (skq1 is not the end of the rainbow) | 10:31 |
| delinquentme | i think im just gonna stop breathing so much | 10:32 |
| * delinquentme holds breath | 10:32 | |
| bdesk | delinquentme: also eating | 10:32 |
| delinquentme | yeah i watch what i eat already | 10:32 |
| delinquentme | excercise regularly | 10:32 |
| delinquentme | bang sluts | 10:32 |
| delinquentme | etc | 10:32 |
| delinquentme | oh, wait. | 10:33 |
| bdesk | aging is just a population genetically evolved method of social control, and you can disrupt this tyranny using the skq1 chemical. | 10:34 |
| delinquentme | i think its fascinating how balance is a big factor in humans | 10:34 |
| delinquentme | like x dose does this ... x+5 does the opposite | 10:35 |
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| bdesk | delinquentme: that sounds dangerously like homeopathy. what about 10^-20 x? | 10:35 |
| delinquentme | haha | 10:36 |
| kanzure | bdesk: nah you need something like "aging is a lie perpetuated by elitist neoluddites in charge of global world feudalism, everyone who knows of skq1 will be murdered" | 10:36 |
| delinquentme | well it was more of a factor 10x | 10:36 |
| delinquentme | O_o;;;; | 10:36 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, you're scaring me | 10:36 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: we're trolling you | 10:37 |
| bdesk | but to some degree natural death really is adaptive for a population, right? isn't this the mainstream thought? | 10:37 |
| delinquentme | FALSE | 10:37 |
| bdesk | i mean having a genetically controlled average lifespan limit | 10:37 |
| delinquentme | these are all presidents based on OLD ideas | 10:37 |
| delinquentme | tenets call them what you will | 10:37 |
| bdesk | you mean like lincoln? | 10:37 |
| uniqanomaly_ | yeah, it is forcing some genetic/memetic progress | 10:37 |
| uniqanomaly_ | i guess | 10:38 |
| kanzure | bdesk: to some extent but i imagine selective pressures are stronger on humans that can reproduce, rather than negatively on social structures that take care of their elderly (which is a more subtle selective pressure) | 10:38 |
| bdesk | uniqanomaly_: i don't know much about the literature so i might be saying discredited things | 10:38 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, haha well thats one way to get people up in arms .. i thought about going at this from a pull approach .. with stuff like that | 10:38 |
| delinquentme | marketing approach | 10:38 |
| bdesk | kanzure: but more broadly why can people only reproduce until a certain age? this might be part of the same adaptive genetically controlled program. | 10:39 |
| uniqanomaly_ | bdesk if most people from Middle Ages would be alive today i guess we wouldn't make much progress | 10:39 |
| bdesk | uniqanomaly_: isn't that heresy on this channel? | 10:39 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, it doesnt make sense to me to conclude that EVERY nuance of what it means to be human should be viewed as "adaptive" | 10:40 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: absolutely right. | 10:40 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, though this point does worry me a bit | 10:40 |
| bdesk | for example the breathing/swallowing/talking mess | 10:40 |
| delinquentme | and i think what DOES drive innovation is the young crowd | 10:41 |
| kanzure | yawn.w | 10:41 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, lol | 10:41 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: but is it because of their chronological age or because of their reproductive ability or because of their lack of senility or dementia? | 10:42 |
| delinquentme | id say its due to the transition from novelty to judgement | 10:42 |
| uniqanomaly_ | i mean backward ideas have to die out eventually | 10:42 |
| delinquentme | thats a psychological answer haha | 10:42 |
| * delinquentme fears for his life now | 10:42 | |
| bdesk | kanzure: i think this is an important issue for life extension. if there is adaptive genetic governor on lifespan then it is more easily subverted than if death is just caused by slings and arrows which we were unable to prevent | 10:43 |
| delinquentme | MAYBE it could be tied to the fact that we cant enjoy all the novelty that we have as children bc physical decay?? | 10:43 |
| uniqanomaly_ | problem is when some people were nurtured with some retarded memes like 'killing for god' | 10:44 |
| kanzure | bdesk: i don't see the difference | 10:44 |
| kanzure | bdesk: i also don't see the difference in determining whether or not aging has any involvement from genetics or not | 10:44 |
| kanzure | it's clear that elderly people have genes, 'nuf said | 10:44 |
| kanzure | now lets go fix the problems | 10:44 |
| uniqanomaly_ | i guess my idea is 'just' memetic eugenics | 10:45 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, im not following what point you're working towards w the death by nature vrs sticks and stones | 10:45 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, corresponding question .. is if we had no religion would LE be more of an issue for people | 10:46 |
| delinquentme | questionmark. | 10:46 |
| bdesk | i'm just considering two possibilities with very different implications for life extension research. 1) you have a limited life 'on purpose'. in this case you can play mad scientist and trick your body into living forever. 2) your body is already trying to live forever and is failing. | 10:46 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, ??? | 10:47 |
| kanzure | #1 just seems to be a subset of possible reasons why #2 is failing | 10:47 |
| kanzure | so i don't really get it | 10:47 |
| bdesk | the only way i can imagine that the russian's chemical works is if (1) is true. | 10:47 |
| bdesk | if (2) is true then adding a chemical won't do jack | 10:48 |
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| delinquentme | bdesk, if adding the chemical removes damage ... this presupposes both those questions does it not? | 10:49 |
| delinquentme | if the damage => aging | 10:49 |
| delinquentme | its totally unnecessary to worry whether is meant to or not | 10:49 |
| delinquentme | fuck what evolution tells our bodys to do | 10:49 |
| delinquentme | my MIND says this is what i want it to do | 10:49 |
| delinquentme | lol | 10:49 |
| delinquentme | that sounded ignorant sorry | 10:49 |
| delinquentme | but i mean we've got control of our own evo now | 10:50 |
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| delinquentme | from a biological standpoint .. not just the selective fitness standpoint | 10:50 |
| kanzure | hi evolv | 10:50 |
| evolv | hi | 10:50 |
| uniqanomaly_ | delinquentme: i think religion is correlated with being small minded, more people who overcome it are pro LE i guess | 10:51 |
| bdesk | evolv: in this channel we discuss a chemical that doubles the median life expectancy | 10:51 |
| uniqanomaly_ | sorry for long response times btw | 10:51 |
| kanzure | evolv: http://content.imamu.edu.sa/Scholars/it/VisualBasic/bcm_1329.pdf | 10:51 |
| evolv | bdesk, marijuana? | 10:52 |
| bdesk | im not a chemist but i doubt it | 10:52 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, umm i would say theres a STRONG correlation | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | evolv, i've heard! | 10:53 |
| bdesk | evolv: kfc | 10:53 |
| evolv | haha | 10:53 |
| evolv | I don't know if I want to spend time critiquing this paper | 10:53 |
| evolv | it's definitely a funding grabber | 10:54 |
| kanzure | evolv: delinquentme thinks it's a magic bullet *shrug* | 10:54 |
| evolv | but I'm sure there are glaring problems this has with life history traits | 10:54 |
| evolv | like all aging studies | 10:54 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, thats why this is a frikken awesome pursuit ... you've got to be a retard to _ NOT _ want this product | 10:54 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, actually i was waiting for an explanation on this | 10:54 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: what if they are lying | 10:55 |
| kanzure | are you asking "what is a magic bullet?" | 10:55 |
| delinquentme | as i said im a programmer not a biologist ... so i just want to know more | 10:55 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: damn it the whole phrase "there is no silver bullet" comes from software engineering anyway | 10:55 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet | 10:55 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, i thought the implications of your response "its not a magic bullet" precluded that " theres OTHER stuff involved with LE" | 10:55 |
| kanzure | no | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | oh. | 10:56 |
| kanzure | don't waste your life on a prayer about skq1 | 10:56 |
| evolv | taking the study on face value, there needs to be follow up studies to examine consequences | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | check! so i've STILL got a job to do!! | 10:56 |
| bdesk | my discussion about evolution was related to the question of the possibility of the existence of an anti-aging magic bullet. | 10:56 |
| evolv | also, mice don't live that long as it is | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | ... what would i even do if i was young for 1000 years | 10:56 |
| kanzure | bdesk: i think any anti-aging system would look like a magic bullet in the end, so that muddies your argument up | 10:57 |
| bdesk | my logic was that if evolution causes us to live only 100 years then we could give it the middle finger by eating a chemical and screwing up its chemical pathway. | 10:57 |
| kanzure | ok so what about two molecules | 10:57 |
| kanzure | or three or N? | 10:57 |
| delinquentme | id have lots of sex .. now that HIV has been cured ... http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.poz.com%2Frssredir%2Farticles%2Fhiv_berlin_cure_761_19563.shtml%3Fsms_ss%3Dfacebook%26at_xt%3D4d02a090069f03b9%252C0&h=12d6f .. id shit .. umm do the same thing but maybe at a slower pace? | 10:57 |
| delinquentme | drive F1 cars! | 10:57 |
| evolv | is delinquentme a troll/ | 10:57 |
| kanzure | bdesk: at which point is your magic bullet theory of anti-aging over extending itself | 10:58 |
| kanzure | evolv: probably | 10:58 |
| delinquentme | lol what?! | 10:58 |
| bdesk | kanzure: i think it is possible to have an anti-aging system without a magic bullet, but it would be a lot of work. | 10:58 |
| delinquentme | im just saying! these are relevant considerations are they not?? | 10:58 |
| evolv | how is this chemical supposed to protect against mutations caused by sunlight and the issue with telemeres? | 10:58 |
| kanzure | evolv: telomerase is just one factor out of many in aging :P | 10:58 |
| uniqanomaly_ | some responses to http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/12/09/worms.health/index.html are great example of small mindedness | 10:59 |
| kanzure | actually, this is where aubrey comes in | 10:59 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategies_for_Engineered_Negligible_Senescence | 10:59 |
| evolv | kanzure, which is wh I mentioned mutations caused by sunlight | 10:59 |
| kanzure | hiyaah | 10:59 |
| uniqanomaly_ | "Man finds extreme healing eating parasitic worms" | 10:59 |
| bdesk | evolv: perhaps those issues are on purpose and we can eat a chemical that will ensure more fidelity in our dna copying | 10:59 |
| uniqanomaly_ | "The impact of mucus alone is not a scientific explanation for the possible improvement attributed to the worms," says Dr. Stephen Hanauer, a member of the board of trustees of the American College of Gastroenterology." | 10:59 |
| bdesk | which is the issue behind both of those forms of damage | 10:59 |
| kanzure | evolv: yeah but radiation damage + telomerase is not the full story. | 10:59 |
| kanzure | evolv: read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategies_for_Engineered_Negligible_Senescence | 10:59 |
| kanzure | also i have Aubrey.zip somewhere on heybryan.org.. which is basically everything aubrey has ever published on this topic | 11:00 |
| evolv | kanzure, no shit. I was giving a few examples | 11:00 |
| bdesk | evolv: so you're saying that there are so many things causing people to die, that a single chemical is unlikely to address enough of them to double our median lifespan? | 11:01 |
| kanzure | bdesk: anyway, my point is that your magic bullet idea just seems like it could be applied to basically anything | 11:01 |
| evolv | bdesk, I'm sure there is the magic chemical. Just like the magic chemical to cure all cancer | 11:01 |
| kanzure | bdesk: however, specifically stating "there is a single chemical or set of N chemicals that will stop human aging genetic programs" (or something even more specific) might be a valid hypothesis | 11:01 |
| evolv | bdesk, I heard squeezing the juices of a snake and rubbing it on the cancerous spot will cure cancer | 11:01 |
| bdesk | you guys should be arguing with each other not with me lol | 11:02 |
| kanzure | evolv: re: curing cancer, one interesting approach is to use oncolytic viruses to attack cancers (once you identify/bioposy your cancer); not really a cure or immunity to cancer but it is one solution. | 11:02 |
| kanzure | *biopsy | 11:03 |
| bdesk | evolv: i don't think there is a magic chemical. i was just imagining a far-fetched scenario under which such a magic bullet would be possible. | 11:04 |
| evolv | I was just being cheeky | 11:04 |
| evolv | I thought that's what we were all doing | 11:04 |
| bdesk | evolv: no kanzure thinks its possible | 11:05 |
| evolv | man, if science was that easy | 11:05 |
| bdesk | evolv: also delinquentme with his russian pdf | 11:05 |
| kanzure | bdesk: one simple model is a death hormone that accumulates wrt lifespan, and the death hormone triggers death. thus, stopping this, or a genetic regulatory equivalent, would be what you call ripe for a magic bullet cure | 11:05 |
| delinquentme | ^_^ | 11:05 |
| kanzure | what do i think is possible? | 11:06 |
| bdesk | kanzure: i agree. this is exactly what i was talking about. | 11:06 |
| delinquentme | actually im checking out more about the 7 deadly SENS right now ... im wanting to say they all stem from a single issue | 11:06 |
| kanzure | bdesk: i know. i don't think you're reading my messages | 11:06 |
| evolv | death hormone that triggers death | 11:06 |
| evolv | wtf | 11:06 |
| evolv | lol | 11:06 |
| kanzure | evolv: yes i think it's stupid too | 11:06 |
| bdesk | evolv: it's possible though right? | 11:06 |
| kanzure | ugh | 11:06 |
| kanzure | bdesk: now i'm starting to think you're the troll | 11:07 |
| evolv | lol | 11:07 |
| bdesk | im not trolling, i'm just considering under what circumstances it would be possible to have the magic bullet chemical. | 11:07 |
| bdesk | the death hormone is a good example. | 11:07 |
| uniqanomaly_ | http://ceri.com/deprenyl.htm | 11:07 |
| uniqanomaly_ | death hormone, wtf? | 11:08 |
| kanzure | bdesk: most people who believe in magic bullet cures to aging use the genetic regulatory network cascading collapse model (instead of death hormone) or oxidation damage or telomerase damage models | 11:08 |
| bdesk | uniqanomaly_: the idea is that if there is a death hormone and the russian chemical blocks this, then it might actually work. | 11:08 |
| uniqanomaly_ | i would cut out this death hormone with Occam's razor | 11:09 |
| delinquentme | do the "super oxides" Vladomir Putin talks about shorten telomeres? | 11:09 |
| -!- jennifer2 is now known as mindthestep | 11:09 | |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, it holds up to occams razor! you've cured aging! | 11:09 |
| uniqanomaly_ | i mean concept of death hormone | 11:10 |
| bdesk | kanzure: if you want my honest opinion about anti-aging, it is that it might be possible but it would be very expensive and invasive. | 11:10 |
| kanzure | bdesk: WIRT or whatever in SENS has "step 2: remove all bone marrow and replace with fresh marrow" | 11:10 |
| kanzure | *painful* | 11:11 |
| bdesk | yes, invasive on the order of that. | 11:11 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, wtf?? | 11:11 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: stem cell replacement therapy stuff. | 11:11 |
| kanzure | http://www.di.fm/mp3/vocaltrance.pls | 11:11 |
| delinquentme | what step of sens is "remove marrow" | 11:11 |
| bdesk | the sadistic step. its actually completely unnecessary | 11:12 |
| delinquentme | lol | 11:12 |
| kanzure | hmm where is this step | 11:12 |
| delinquentme | you guys | 11:12 |
| kanzure | actually i might be blowing poop up your ass, i don't see 'marrow' on the wikipedia page | 11:12 |
| kanzure | where did this come from | 11:12 |
| delinquentme | not http://www.sens.org/forums/sens | 11:12 |
| kanzure | http://acceleratingfuture.com/hplusroadmapwiki/Roadmap | 11:13 |
| kanzure | "AdG suggests stem cell replacement therapy every decade, a massive animal experiment to engineer immortal animals (for testing purposes and to stay ahead of us), and longevity-mice experiments within the next ten years. Insert here a more thorough summary of his papers (from the zip file)." | 11:13 |
| kanzure | wait a sec | 11:13 |
| kanzure | i wrote that :( | 11:13 |
| kanzure | oh that's hplusroadmapwiki | 11:14 |
| bdesk | lol | 11:14 |
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| kanzure | http://fixourgenes.com/ | 11:16 |
| kanzure | well i'm at a loss | 11:16 |
| delinquentme | GRAAA | 11:16 |
| delinquentme | theres sooo many ways to go at this problem :D | 11:16 |
| kanzure | bdesk: am i making up this bone marrow transplant stuff? | 11:18 |
| bdesk | i dunno but it sounds like a good idea | 11:19 |
| bdesk | i bet it would feel so refreshing | 11:20 |
| kanzure | "De Grey suggests replacing a person's stem cells every 10 years with engineered varieties" | 11:20 |
| kanzure | "Here we mean regular (every 10 years) replacement of stem cells population" | 11:20 |
| bdesk | i think that blood comes from stem cells in your marrow | 11:20 |
| bdesk | so it seems plausible | 11:20 |
| delinquentme | "99% of the time 'it' turns into harmless water... but the 1% of the time it turns into 'superoxide' " | 11:20 |
| delinquentme | whats the it | 11:20 |
| kanzure | you know maybe it's just been me making this 10yr replacement thng up | 11:21 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/b84cf53add0a4800 | 11:21 |
| kanzure | "As it happens, WILT has never been my favorite strategy in SENS - which is interesting, given that it is just as scientifically sound as the rest." | 11:22 |
| kanzure | `I think that my instinctive objection stems from it being the one portion of SENS we can point to today and say "that would need a touch-up procedure every 10 years ... or else."` | 11:22 |
| kanzure | "The need to return to the clinic exists because a WILT recipient has no more telomerase anywhere, including - especially - the stem cell populations vital to health. There are genetic diseases that tell us what happens when your stem cells stop being able to lengthen their telomeres; it's a slow and unpleasant way to go, taking about a decade to show up in earnest, and running downhill from there as regeneration and repair starts to shut down." | 11:22 |
| kanzure | "So the WILT recipient of 2030 would have to receive new stem cell populations, or more likely some form of gene therapy that restored telomere length in the existing populations, every decade or so." | 11:23 |
| kanzure | "To me, ten years is not a broad enough margin to account for error, falling into bankruptcy, heading out to the backwaters of the solar system and back again, and so forth. It's all too easy for something to go wrong. The ideal hypothetical longevity therapy (or component of longevity therapy) lengthens your life span even if you never see another clinic again - but WILT dramatically reduces your life span under that set of circumstances." | 11:23 |
| kanzure | ok so it was the WILT part of SENS | 11:23 |
| delinquentme | damn im lost | 11:24 |
| kanzure | "Whole-body Interdiction of Lengthening of Telomeres" | 11:24 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: in order to stay alive your cells need to keep dividing. each time they divide they lose a bit of dna off the ends. when too much dna is lost you die. | 11:24 |
| kanzure | aha here we go | 11:24 |
| kanzure | the 2005 publication of WILT | 11:24 |
| kanzure | http://www.bioscience.org/2005/v10/af/1707/list.htm | 11:24 |
| kanzure | "Aubrey D.N.J. de Grey" what the hell aubrey | 11:25 |
| delinquentme | dbolser, ummm when cells divide they snip a bit of the telomere off the end ... | 11:25 |
| delinquentme | im not sure about the whole die when its gone | 11:25 |
| delinquentme | but i thought INSTEAD that the CELLS no longer replicate in a clean manner after the telomeres are gone? | 11:26 |
| delinquentme | all we need to do is develop a really, really good cure for cancer | 11:26 |
| delinquentme | thats part of the WILT discussion on SENS | 11:26 |
| bdesk | no longer replicate in a clean manner = you die | 11:26 |
| delinquentme | thats AWESOME .. because theres LOTS of people working on cancer | 11:26 |
| bdesk | that's not just cancer... | 11:26 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: it is like if every cell in your body turned into a cancer cell. | 11:27 |
| kanzure | let's use better terminology instead of cancer | 11:27 |
| kanzure | "replicates a fuckload often" | 11:27 |
| bdesk | i meant thae 'no longer replicate in a clean manner' part | 11:27 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, im confused though .. w the harvard telomere research .. they were talking about extending the telomeres resulting in cancer | 11:27 |
| delinquentme | telomeres ... WHICH WOULD ... result in cancer ..e xcuse me | 11:28 |
| kanzure | hmm there's probably another set of pathologies or words to describe that, which i'm forgetting | 11:28 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: what harvard stuff? the recent stuff in the newsS? | 11:28 |
| kanzure | *news | 11:28 |
| delinquentme | yeah w the mouses | 11:28 |
| delinquentme | HAR! | 11:28 |
| kanzure | yeah that was bullshit | 11:28 |
| delinquentme | wink wink nudge nudge | 11:28 |
| delinquentme | yeahhh | 11:28 |
| delinquentme | i spammed it all over FB | 11:28 |
| delinquentme | then realized it wasnt that impressive | 11:29 |
| kanzure | they genetically engineered the mice to have retarded telomerase | 11:29 |
| kanzure | so guess what happens when you fix the telomerases! | 11:29 |
| delinquentme | they dont die! | 11:29 |
| delinquentme | OK! | 11:30 |
| delinquentme | so no the correlation is | 11:30 |
| kanzure | for your purposes you should just know that there's a set of molecular enzymes and tools to copy DNA from one cell to the next | 11:30 |
| kanzure | as well as DNA repair mechanisms and all sorts of goodies | 11:30 |
| kanzure | and sometimes these break and fuck up in really bad ways | 11:30 |
| kanzure | really subtle really bad ways | 11:30 |
| delinquentme | cancerous cells reproduce @ furious rate ( duh ) .. the reproduction causes the telomeres to wear away hella quick ... and when a cell rusn out of telomeres it self-destructs | 11:31 |
| bdesk | kanzure: "Alex's talk will be divided in three parts. The first will explain the selective advantage of aging, or why biology evolved a genetic program to age." | 11:31 |
| kanzure | bdesk: yeah | 11:31 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, fuck biology :D | 11:31 |
| delinquentme | i dont want to | 11:31 |
| bdesk | kanzure: you believe this? | 11:32 |
| kanzure | bdesk: yeah, it's pretty clear.. hell look at molecular embryology | 11:32 |
| kanzure | those cells don't just spontaneously form into a human | 11:32 |
| delinquentme | ps.. di evolv ignore me bc i said sex? | 11:33 |
| bdesk | kanzure: you think it might be possible to find a chemical which would disrupt the biologically evolved genetic program to age, at a point somewhere between adulthood and death? | 11:33 |
| kanzure | disrupt in what way | 11:34 |
| bdesk | or more basically, do you think that disrupting the biologically evolved genetic program to age is a valid approach to life extension? | 11:34 |
| kanzure | there's lots of ways to disrupt genetics.. viruses, RNA silencing, nutrient starvation, diet, blah blah blah | 11:34 |
| kanzure | yes i think it's worth our time and attention :P | 11:35 |
| kanzure | but realize that aging is also something that is not directly genetically controlled as well | 11:35 |
| kanzure | don't ostrich-face yourself into that | 11:36 |
| kanzure | uh | 11:36 |
| kanzure | pidgeon hole? there's another phrase there | 11:36 |
| kanzure | pidgeotto hole | 11:36 |
| kanzure | on another note, | 11:38 |
| kanzure | there was an article out in the news recently about tom pals' work with those 150 SNPs that i linked to yesterday | 11:38 |
| kanzure | the article briefly interviewed a few of the participants from the study, like the khan brothers | 11:38 |
| delinquentme | SNPs? | 11:39 |
| kanzure | turns out they own an investment firm http://www.kahnbrothers.com/ | 11:39 |
| kanzure | and they have been at it for 80 years or something and they just won't die | 11:39 |
| kanzure | $500M under management (a respectable- but not awesome- sum) | 11:39 |
| kanzure | the son of one of the khan bros. recently retired from the firm at age 74.. :P | 11:40 |
| bdesk | wat a baby | 11:40 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: single nucleotide polymorphisms.. basically SNPs tell you what allele you have in a specific spot on a gene in your genome | 11:40 |
| kanzure | this is what 23andme.com looks at (for a limited subset of SNPs) | 11:40 |
| delinquentme | ummm | 11:41 |
| delinquentme | damn kanz you're a wealth of info haha | 11:41 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: so this study by tom pals was to look at what interesting SNPs that centenarians (people older than 100 years) have that might be helping 'em out | 11:41 |
| delinquentme | you've got all this shit stored? | 11:41 |
| delinquentme | OH! i see | 11:42 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: yeah if you bug me i'll re-upload the papers listed in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/longevity_papers.txt | 11:42 |
| kanzure | here's the paper/supplemental material (with SNP list) http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2010/06/30/science.1190532.DC1/Sebastiani_SOM.pdf | 11:42 |
| bdesk | kanzure: i bet the genes that make them not poor have been helping them out | 11:42 |
| kanzure | oops it was tom perls not tom pals | 11:42 |
| kanzure | "Genetic signatures of exceptional longevity in humans" 2010 | 11:43 |
| kanzure | bdesk: not all centenarians are investment bankers :P | 11:43 |
| delinquentme | bdesk, LOL | 11:43 |
| bdesk | kanzure: right but homeless are not centenarians | 11:43 |
| delinquentme | INTERESTING question : du think theres a correlation between net worth and stress level?? | 11:43 |
| kanzure | yeah they tend to have families (apparently) | 11:43 |
| delinquentme | BLUE ZONES! | 11:45 |
| delinquentme | you guys know about that stuff | 11:45 |
| kanzure | evolv: i should apologize, the channel isn't usually this awful. | 11:45 |
| bdesk | ;_; | 11:45 |
| delinquentme | theres also a high correlation between longevity and funny hats | 11:45 |
| bdesk | delinquentme: haha | 11:45 |
| delinquentme | @_@ is this bad for the channel?? | 11:46 |
| kanzure | this is low quality | 11:46 |
| kanzure | yes | 11:46 |
| delinquentme | really?? | 11:46 |
| bdesk | no it's always like this when i'm here. oh wait... | 11:46 |
| delinquentme | like i find this all fascinating | 11:46 |
| kanzure | yes it is fascinating | 11:46 |
| delinquentme | and incredibly pertinent to transhumanism | 11:46 |
| delinquentme | im just sad that i think i pissed off a chan op?? | 11:47 |
| delinquentme | wasnt trying to do that -_- | 11:47 |
| kanzure | you haven't pissed off anyone | 11:47 |
| delinquentme | ?? he asked if i was troll lol | 11:48 |
| delinquentme | im not trying to trollolol | 11:48 |
| delinquentme | =[ | 11:48 |
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| bdesk | delinquentme: i think that was when you posted something about riding bikes | 11:49 |
| delinquentme | lol! | 11:49 |
| kanzure | brb someone should force me to summarize http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/PathDiamMolMfg.htm when i get back | 11:49 |
| delinquentme | i dont know whether to laugh or ... | 11:49 |
| delinquentme | i like prostitive inforcement | 11:50 |
| delinquentme | they've got misformed alleles | 11:50 |
| archels | delinquentme: tell us about your religious background. | 11:51 |
| kanzure | nooo | 11:52 |
| archels | too obvious? | 11:52 |
| delinquentme | archels, im roman catholic | 11:53 |
| archels | alright, well, go on | 11:53 |
| * archels grabs the popcorn | 11:53 | |
| evolv | I've been busy | 11:53 |
| delinquentme | archels, thats it | 11:54 |
| delinquentme | praise jesus i havnt been mislead | 11:54 |
| archels | delinquentme, what is God to you? | 11:54 |
| bdesk | kanzure: but i thought we loved drexler and hated merkle | 11:54 |
| bdesk | or was it the other way around... | 11:55 |
| uniqanomaly_ | delinquentme: are you against contraception? | 11:55 |
| bdesk | kanzure: o it was smalley nvm | 11:55 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, i am contracontraception | 11:55 |
| delinquentme | i just think that if what gods selling us is "everlasting life" | 11:55 |
| delinquentme | why the fuck should we die to get it | 11:56 |
| evolv | delinquentme, do you like the wang? | 11:56 |
| uniqanomaly_ | if you have doubts you're not true believer | 11:56 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, oh yeah absolutely im not down w the pope being infallible | 11:57 |
| bdesk | kanzure: i dont believe that this is worse than normal | 11:57 |
| uniqanomaly_ | wtf of believer are you | 11:57 |
| uniqanomaly_ | you'll burn in hell | 11:57 |
| delinquentme | oh i see hahah is evolv bring normalcy back? | 11:57 |
| uniqanomaly_ | i'm serious | 11:57 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, ehhh thats a rough spot | 11:58 |
| evolv | delinquentme, do you take any medication? | 11:58 |
| evolv | aderol? | 11:58 |
| evolv | xanax? | 11:58 |
| kanzure | bdesk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqyZ9bFl_qg amuse yourself | 11:58 |
| * kanzure is now really gone/brb | 11:58 | |
| delinquentme | evolv, just mdma urethreally | 11:58 |
| delinquentme | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz4lFeqJPdU | 11:59 |
| uniqanomaly_ | delinquentme: pope is god sent determinant of truth, you should know that | 11:59 |
| delinquentme | O_O behold t3h majesty of god | 11:59 |
| archels | kanzure: 360p? :\ | 11:59 |
| delinquentme | SLASH whats stated in the first comment in the above video | 12:00 |
| delinquentme | uniqanomaly_, dont tell me what i believe OK!? | 12:00 |
| delinquentme | lawlz | 12:00 |
| uniqanomaly_ | ok, it's yours integrity of identity at stake after all | 12:01 |
| uniqanomaly_ | just trying to help | 12:01 |
| delinquentme | haha | 12:02 |
| delinquentme | no im reformed | 12:02 |
| delinquentme | born again agnostic | 12:02 |
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| delinquentme | archels, are you dissapointed? | 12:05 |
| delinquentme | SERIOUSLY as soon as i understand the breakdown of scales and what is inside what of the human cell/chromosome/dna/molecule actions .. im gonna inforgraphic that shit | 12:10 |
| delinquentme | the way it is now is WAY to disparate | 12:10 |
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| delinquentme | HA | 12:29 |
| delinquentme | i didnt know DNA was a molecule | 12:29 |
| uniqanomaly_ | delinquentme: yeah, make like >10 dimensional infographic with zoom for different levels of abstraction | 12:32 |
| uniqanomaly_ | breakthrough in visualization + many minds just blown | 12:33 |
| delinquentme | i was thinking it would be simple enough to make a absolutely MASSIVE image .. and just do them to relative scale | 12:33 |
| klafka | delinquentme, mdma urethrally, you should probably take it through DMSO absorption | 12:37 |
| delinquentme | klafka, the means justify the ends | 12:38 |
| klafka | so you're saying you enjoy sticking drugs into your uretha more than you enjoy the feeling of the drugs? | 12:38 |
| kanzure | mormon transhumanist association looking for a volunteer to play secretary http://news.transfigurism.org/2010/12/opening-for-volunteer-secretary.html | 12:40 |
| delinquentme | wtf would ever make you want to be BOTH transhumanist AND mormon | 12:42 |
| bdesk | if you wanted to troll | 12:43 |
| delinquentme | lol | 12:45 |
| delinquentme | oiy my head hurts | 12:45 |
| delinquentme | i need a hot biologist | 12:45 |
| bdesk | how about a secretary instead? just start a catholic transhumanist association... | 12:47 |
| delinquentme | yum! | 13:02 |
| archels | bdesk: Isn't there a Mormon transhumanist association? | 13:22 |
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| archels | http://transfigurism.org/ | 13:29 |
| uniqanomaly_ | "What the fuck am I seeing?" | 13:31 |
| uniqanomaly_ | well, actually it's nice adaptation | 13:32 |
| uniqanomaly_ | 'adapt or die' | 13:32 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Dec 12 00:00:07 2010 | ||
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