| --- Log opened Fri Jan 14 00:00:04 2011 | ||
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| kanzure | Khamilia Bedelbaeva, Andrew Snyder, Dmitri Gourevitch, Lise Clark, Xiang-Ming Zhang, John Leferovich, James M. Cheverud, Paul Lieberman, and Ellen Heber-Katz. Lack of p21 expression links cell cycle control and appendage regeneration in mice. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2010; DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1000830107 | 00:16 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | in the news: http://www.physorg.com/news187879295.html | 00:16 |
| kanzure | pdf: http://www.chri.org/images/April%207,%202010_Kieran_Ritchie_PNAS-2010-Bedelbaeva-5845-50.pdf | 00:17 |
| joshcryer | Wow. | 00:17 |
| kanzure | oops bad pdf link :( | 00:18 |
| kanzure | pdf: http://www.pnas.org/content/107/13/5845.full.pdf | 00:19 |
| joshcryer | Cute evolutionary discussion on the thread. | 00:20 |
| kanzure | also, "robocop" is a much more bizarre movie than i recalled | 00:20 |
| joshcryer | Hehe | 00:21 |
| joshcryer | I have not seen that movie since I was a kid, I tried, but, I couldn't bare to watch. | 00:21 |
| joshcryer | Ahh, that's a rather dated development, wonder why I didn't hear of it. | 00:23 |
| joshcryer | I guess I wasn't lurking around here at that time. | 00:24 |
| --- Log opened Fri Jan 14 02:34:52 2011 | ||
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| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio http://bit.ly/diybionews http://gitduino.com/ http://hplusmagazine.com/ http://gadaprize.org/ | logs: http://gnusha.org/logs/ | 02:34 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Thu Dec 23 15:28:23 2010] | 02:34 | |
| [Users ##hplusroadmap] | 02:34 | |
| [ AlonzoTG] [ dbolser ] [ Helleshin] [ kanzure_1] [ QuantumG ] | 02:34 | |
| [ archels ] [ drazak ] [ Jappe2 ] [ mjr ] [ saurik ] | 02:34 | |
| [ augur ] [ elmom ] [ JaredW ] [ nchaimov ] [ superkuh ] | 02:34 | |
| [ bkero ] [ epitron ] [ jebba ] [ niftyzero] [ timschmidt] | 02:34 | |
| [ CIA-67 ] [ ferrouswheel] [ joshcryer] [ nsh ] [ Utopiah ] | 02:34 | |
| [ clemux ] [ g4k ] [ jrabbit ] [ pasky ] [ wrldpc2 ] | 02:34 | |
| [ Daeken ] [ gnusha ] [ jrayhawk ] [ phryk ] [ ybit ] | 02:34 | |
| -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 35 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 35 normal] | 02:34 | |
| -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 | 02:34 | |
| -!- Irssi: Join to ##hplusroadmap was synced in 4 secs | 02:34 | |
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| jrayhawk | whois Grin | 02:46 |
| jrayhawk | whoops | 02:46 |
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| mjr | https://blog.itu.dk/efficientcomputation/2011/01/12/np-hardness-in-first-grade/ | 03:14 |
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| Lukas__ | Good morning | 03:39 |
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| Grin | whoops indeed | 04:01 |
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| Grin | Really? | 04:17 |
| Grin | You sad little man. | 04:17 |
| Grin | Perchance I was misled. | 04:21 |
| Lukas__ | ? | 04:35 |
| Grin | As to the character of this channel's inhabitants. | 05:43 |
| Grin | But then, it is important not to judge based upon first impressions. | 05:43 |
| archels | whois Grin | 05:49 |
| archels | OOPS | 05:49 |
| mjr | indeed, one could get the impression of you being a total wanker | 05:49 |
| Lukas__ | XD | 05:51 |
| Grin | I tend to give what I get. | 06:02 |
| Grin | Which in this case would be blind hostility. | 06:03 |
| archels | so bitter :( | 06:05 |
| Lukas__ | Hello Grin | 06:09 |
| Grin | Salutations. | 06:10 |
| Lukas__ | Nice to meet you | 06:11 |
| Lukas__ | I'm relatively new here | 06:11 |
| Grin | I'm entirely new here. | 06:12 |
| Grin | In fact, I haven't been on IRC in over two years. | 06:13 |
| Lukas__ | Nice | 06:13 |
| Lukas__ | This is the first IRC channel I've been on | 06:13 |
| Grin | My friend spoke of it very highly. | 06:14 |
| Lukas__ | It's alright | 06:20 |
| Lukas__ | so who told you about this place? | 06:20 |
| Utopiah | (feedback on quora?) | 06:21 |
| Grin | Gleapsite | 06:22 |
| Lukas__ | never heard of him/ her | 06:22 |
| Lukas__ | but then again, I am a neewbie | 06:23 |
| Lukas__ | :D | 06:23 |
| Lukas__ | ah Thingiverse | 06:23 |
| Grin | Not surprising. He has a notirously short attention span. He isn't the type to linger. | 06:27 |
| Lukas__ | heh | 06:28 |
| Lukas__ | well, welcome to hplusroadmap | 06:28 |
| Grin | My welcome was having some petty asshat from oregon registering my handle while I slept. | 06:30 |
| Grin | Because apparently the multiple identities he has already aren't enough to compensate for his passive-aggressive cowardice and/or small penis. | 06:30 |
| Grin | It's a pity I missed the conversation about lucid dreaming as well. | 06:40 |
| Lukas__ | D: | 06:42 |
| Lukas__ | I am sorry | 06:44 |
| Lukas__ | I really have no idea who would do that to you | 06:44 |
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| Grin | this "jr" character, apparently | 07:06 |
| Grin | It actually woke me up this morning... all the beeping from him trying to get me disconnected | 07:08 |
| Grin | I'm still trying to remember what all the commands are | 07:11 |
| Grin | So, you're from London? I had a chance to visit there this past summer. Not for long though... mostly did touristy shit. Hopefully I'll get a chance to head back some day and go off the map a little. | 07:13 |
| Utopiah | ( http://www.couchsurfing.org can help against "touristy shit" ) | 07:16 |
| Grin | Well, time contraints were my issue. I spent three or four days apiece in Berlin, Amsterdam, and London. | 07:19 |
| Grin | In retrospect it was probably too much moving around... I was just getting my bearings in one place when I had to move on. | 07:19 |
| Grin | Plus it was during the world cup... kinda crazy. | 07:19 |
| Grin | But I don't know when I'll have the means to travel again so it was worth it seeing so much in one trip I guess. | 07:22 |
| kanzure_1 | if you want to read the backlogs re: lucid dreaming, see: | 07:39 |
| kanzure_1 | http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-01-12.log | 07:39 |
| kanzure_1 | http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-01-13.log | 07:39 |
| kanzure_1 | also, for our bay area dwelling robots, there's a 'personalized medicine conference' on the 18th http://www.pmwc2011.com/ | 07:40 |
| Grin | I should start a dream log, but I hardly ever remember anything even upon first waking. | 07:46 |
| Grin | I think ironically, the more abstract and surreal your dreams are, the harder it can be to realize that you're dreaming sometimes. | 07:47 |
| Grin | It's always the most mundane detail that tips me off, never the crazy shit. | 07:48 |
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| Lukas__ | heh, that is interesting | 08:08 |
| Lukas__ | I find no problem having lucid dreams | 08:08 |
| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 08:11 |
| Grin | I've never had any of the normal dreams that most people talk about...being late somewhere and forgetting your clothes and things like that | 08:12 |
| Grin | Sometimes I'm not even in my dreams, really. I'm just kind of watching from a bird's eye view. | 08:13 |
| Grin | morning | 08:13 |
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| kanzure_1 | http://omicsomics.blogspot.com/2011/01/chromothripsis-cratering-of-chromosomes.html | 09:19 |
| kanzure_1 | is about: Massive Genomic Rearrangement Acquired in a Single Catastrophic Event during Cancer Development Cell, 144 (1), 27-40 : | 09:19 |
| kanzure_1 | doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2010.11.055 | 09:20 |
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| kanzure_1 | hm.. http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2011/0113/34-000-year-old-bacteria-discovered-and-it-s-still-alive | 10:24 |
| kanzure_1 | "34,000-year-old bacteria: The microbes were discovered in trapped inside tiny bubbles in salt crystals buried in Death Valley, in a state of suspended animation." | 10:24 |
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| Grin | Oh look | 10:25 |
| kanzure_1 | Microbial communities in fluid inclusions and long-term survival in halite | 10:25 |
| kanzure_1 | abstract: http://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/archive/21/1/article/i1052-5173-21-1-4.htm | 10:25 |
| Grin | The Wanker-King has returned | 10:25 |
| kanzure_1 | pdf: http://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/archive/21/1/pdf/i1052-5173-21-1-4.pdf | 10:26 |
| kanzure_1 | "Fluid inclusions in modern and ancient buried halite from Death Valley and Saline Valley, California, USA, contain an ecosystem of “salt-loving” (halophilic) prokaryotes and eukaryotes, some of which are alive. Prokaryotes may survive inside fluid inclusions for tens of thousands of years using carbon and other metabolites supplied by the trapped microbial community, most notably the single-celled alga Dunaliella, an important primary pro | 10:26 |
| * Grin slaps jrabbit around a bit with a large trout | 10:26 | |
| * Grin slaps jrayhawk around a bit with a large trout | 10:26 | |
| Grin | Howdy friend. | 10:27 |
| kanzure_1 | microscopy: http://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/archive/21/1/figure/i1052-5173-21-1-4-f05.htm | 10:27 |
| -!- kanzure_1 is now known as kanzure | 10:27 | |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ | 10:28 | |
| @kanzure | medical design and manufacturing conference feb7-10 http://www.mdmwest.com/ | 10:33 |
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| @kanzure | Adrian Cheng, J Tiago Gonçalves, Peyman Golshani, Katsushi Arisaka, Carlos Portera-Cailliau. Simultaneous two-photon calcium imaging at different depths with spatiotemporal multiplexing. Nature Methods, 2011; DOI: 10.1038/nmeth.1552 | 10:40 |
| @kanzure | news: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110112110749.htm | 10:40 |
| @kanzure | abstract: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.1552.html | 10:40 |
| @kanzure | pdf: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/bio/Simultaneous%20two-photon%20calcium%20imaging%20at%20different%20depths%20with%20spatiotemporal%20multiplexing.pdf | 10:40 |
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| Utopiah | "versatile package to perform molecular dynamics" http://www.gromacs.org | 10:44 |
| @kanzure | Utopiah: nanoengineer uses that :) | 10:44 |
| Utopiah | nice (I have to agree, he's op) | 10:45 |
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| Utopiah | (glad to see a proper topic btw ;) | 10:47 |
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| @kanzure | heh makerbot.com is down because bre is live on CNN at the moment :P | 11:00 |
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| @kanzure | hi jmil | 11:13 |
| jmil | hiya | 11:14 |
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| jmil | why the change from #hplusroadmap to ##hplusroadmap? | 11:15 |
| Utopiah | freenode rules | 11:15 |
| @kanzure | also so that we can have ops in here | 11:15 |
| @kanzure | fyi i just pushed csg.py to http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad as a sample of how i hope to use lolcad someday | 11:17 |
| Lukas__ | It's pretty annoying | 11:17 |
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| Lukas__ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ODzO7Lz_pw&feature=sub | 11:37 |
| Lukas__ | "How to build a toaster from scratch | 11:42 |
| Lukas__ | " | 11:42 |
| @kanzure | john cumbers is posting up some jobs for his synthetic biology startup | 11:49 |
| @kanzure | http://ubm.theresumator.com/apply/xG5AjD/Senior-Scientist-Biochemist-Synthetic-Biologist-Biochemical-Engineer.html | 11:49 |
| @kanzure | http://ubm.theresumator.com/apply/5T9Y3v/Senior-Genetics-Scientist-Synthetic-Biologist.html | 11:49 |
| @kanzure | http://ubm.theresumator.com/apply/U1rPJ9/Junior-Researcher-Biochemist-Biochemical-Engineer-Synthetic-Biologist-Molecular-Biologist-Geneticist.html | 11:49 |
| Lukas__ | O.O | 11:51 |
| Lukas__ | thanks | 11:51 |
| Lukas__ | grr - why does everything have to start up on the West Coast? | 11:55 |
| uniqanomaly_ | culture & environment ;P | 11:55 |
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| Lukas__ | :( | 11:59 |
| uniqanomaly_ | sad it is | 11:59 |
| Lukas__ | what is the size and fame of New York good for if nothing new goes on here? | 12:03 |
| uniqanomaly_ | for exploiting work force (->http://venturebeat.com/2010/12/22/google-new-york-office/) | 12:04 |
| uniqanomaly_ | :P | 12:05 |
| uniqanomaly_ | in general it have something to do with local mindset I guess | 12:05 |
| uniqanomaly_ | so much for free will | 12:06 |
| uniqanomaly_ | ;) | 12:06 |
| Lukas__ | I suppose .... | 12:09 |
| Lukas__ | hrm, that will have to change | 12:09 |
| @kanzure | http://stop.zona-m.net/2011/01/the-open-data-open-society-report-2/ | 12:09 |
| uniqanomaly_ | Lukas__ not really | 12:09 |
| @kanzure | "Scientists introduce DNA directly into the cell nucleus using protein nanodisks" http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-01/uadb-ngt011111.php | 12:09 |
| uniqanomaly_ | inertia, perhaps you've heard about it in context of physics | 12:10 |
| uniqanomaly_ | it applies to everything | 12:10 |
| @kanzure | better: http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/01/dna-directly-put-into-cell-nucleus.html | 12:10 |
| @kanzure | Esther Vázquez, Rafael Cubarsi, Ugutz Unzueta, Mónica Roldán, Joan Domingo-Espín, Neus Ferrer-Miralles, Antonio Villaverde. Internalization and kinetics of nuclear migration of protein-only, arginine-rich nanoparticles. Biomaterials, 2010; 31 (35): 9333 DOI: 10.1016/j.biomaterials.2010.08.065 | 12:10 |
| uniqanomaly_ | from personality, local mindsets, law to global economy | 12:10 |
| @kanzure | abstract: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TWB-5137KBD-3&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2010&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=011a92d4bdc2b84790e43afa7841d050&searchtype=a | 12:10 |
| @kanzure | " | 12:10 |
| @kanzure | Internalization and kinetics of nuclear migration of protein-only, arginine-rich nanoparticles | 12:10 |
| @kanzure | hrm where's my paperbot | 12:11 |
| Lukas__ | thanks kanzure | 12:11 |
| Lukas__ | to be honest uniqanomaly, I am not sure if I want to move all the way out there, but if that is where moves are being made ... | 12:12 |
| @kanzure | Lukas__: i haven't moved to the bay area and things are going fine for me | 12:13 |
| @kanzure | though i do travel often, but i imagine i'd be traveling anyway | 12:13 |
| Lukas__ | That's probably how I'm going to turn out as well | 12:16 |
| Grin | I think I'm off to go do some traveling myself. | 12:16 |
| Lukas__ | :D | 12:17 |
| Grin | Too long have I left the depths of my subconcious unplumbed. | 12:18 |
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| Lukas__ | Kanzure, if you find anything about immune responses and new types of gene therapy, give me a heads up (please) | 12:23 |
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| thesnark | hey kanzure | 12:26 |
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| Grin | A pleasure making acquaintances, fare thee well. | 12:31 |
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| Lukas__ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKqfUPcaiM0 | 12:36 |
| Lukas__ | D: | 12:36 |
| Lukas__ | This is like deepblue part II | 12:37 |
| archels | GOFAI | 12:41 |
| gleapsite1 | watson needs to meet eliza and have turing capable babies. | 12:43 |
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| * uniqanomaly_ - joke detected | 12:44 | |
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| @kanzure | hi thesnark|busy | 12:54 |
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| @kanzure | what where'd this come from? http://kprize.wordpress.com/prize-specifications/ | 14:54 |
| @kanzure | oh it's the same text | 14:55 |
| kanzure2 | though there is a FAQ.. | 15:00 |
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| kanzure2 | howdy fenn | 15:30 |
| kanzure2 | two things: | 15:30 |
| kanzure2 | 1) how would you use the $80k from the reprap grand prize? | 15:30 |
| fenn | bounties | 15:30 |
| kanzure2 | humanity+ agrees in general | 15:30 |
| kanzure2 | 2) brainport + eye tracking i/o for lucid dreamers? | 15:31 |
| fenn | brainport is overkill | 15:31 |
| fenn | unless you mean EEG | 15:31 |
| kanzure2 | tongue tactile display thingy | 15:31 |
| fenn | also, i dont really see the point. do people even think logically during lucid dreams? | 15:31 |
| kanzure2 | REM corresponds to eye gaze in dreams but i have serious doubts about using trained EEG stuff.. i mean it's hard enough while you're awake.. | 15:31 |
| kanzure2 | it's entertaining at least. *shrug* | 15:32 |
| kanzure2 | i doubt there's any particular advantage | 15:33 |
| kanzure2 | but if you're cursed with lucidity in your dreams then you might as well take advantage | 15:33 |
| fenn | at most it'd be useful for a sort of bookmark or "ok i just slayed the dragon, now what" and you can then look at the rest of the eeg data with a bit more understanding | 15:33 |
| kanzure2 | if tongue tactile displays work in your dreams you could do 3D virtual environments on your computer | 15:33 |
| fenn | but you're already doing 3d virtual environments in your head | 15:34 |
| kanzure2 | yes but not really primed with any outside stimulus [during the dreaming] | 15:36 |
| kanzure2 | or, if it is primed by outside stimulus, it's mostly just sounds in your house or whatever, not particularly high throughput data transfer | 15:37 |
| kanzure2 | it's just entertaining | 15:37 |
| kanzure2 | anyway, back to the gada prize stuff, i can change things up and turn it into bounties or even directly hired work for specific projects | 15:38 |
| kanzure2 | reprappers get things done v. cheap | 15:39 |
| kanzure2 | maybe i should make a massive todo list and just set price tags for what i think it should cost? | 15:40 |
| Utopiah | sounds hard and tedious | 15:41 |
| kanzure2 | "hard and tedious" is my middle name | 15:41 |
| kanzure2 | hrm wait. | 15:41 |
| archels | ... | 15:41 |
| Utopiah | sounded naughty | 15:41 |
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| kanzure | Utopiah: any alternatives? | 15:47 |
| kanzure | google summer of code is relevant i guess | 15:53 |
| kanzure | i wonder why ben hasn't done this for opencog? i guess he has undergrad slave labor | 15:56 |
| jebba | kanzure what's this $80k you're talking about anyway? Are the gada folks upping the amount and allowing you to redo the rules (!)? | 15:57 |
| kanzure | 1) i am the gada folks | 15:59 |
| kanzure | 2) $20k was raised but originally the stink back in jan. 2010 was about the $80k "grand prize" | 15:59 |
| kanzure | in reality it was the interim prize ($20k) that was funded | 16:00 |
| kanzure | http://gadaprize.org/ has deets | 16:00 |
| kanzure | buuut the whole idea of a prize here is just a little weird | 16:01 |
| fenn | where is the money assumed to be coming from anyway? | 16:01 |
| kanzure | because it breeds secrecy in an otherwise open source project | 16:01 |
| kanzure | kartik gada is just some financial | 16:01 |
| kanzure | oops | 16:01 |
| kanzure | fenn: kartik gada's buddies | 16:01 |
| fenn | so why isn't it funded yet? | 16:01 |
| kanzure | so some of it rests on making kartik happy :P | 16:01 |
| kanzure | dunno. | 16:01 |
| fenn | well, that's stupid. | 16:02 |
| jrayhawk | that's slightly horrifying | 16:02 |
| kanzure | jebba: so, i'm thinking that this money ca be used more efficiently | 16:02 |
| kanzure | *can be used | 16:02 |
| kanzure | there's a long list of things that need to get done that money would accelerate | 16:02 |
| Lukas__ | yup | 16:02 |
| kanzure | the main philanthropy tagline that gadaprize.org has is that the money goes directly to the reprappers or whatever (no management overhead fees) | 16:03 |
| kanzure | i feel that, more importantly, it's the fact that the target project is open source | 16:03 |
| kanzure | so saying $2500 to make a better plastruder isn't too much of a stretch in my opinion | 16:06 |
| jebba | ya, more like microfinancing projects than some superprize would likely serve everyone better | 16:06 |
| kanzure | SUPERPRIZE | 16:06 |
| kanzure | the Kartik M. Gada Humanitarian Innovation Prize in Personal Manufacturing for RepRap | 16:06 |
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| jebba | SUPERSIZEPRIZE | 16:06 |
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| Lukas__ | Someone should start selling something | 16:07 |
| fenn | how about your mom | 16:07 |
| kanzure | 15:03 < fenn> he survives on a diet solely consisting of humans | 16:07 |
| Lukas__ | D: | 16:07 |
| kanzure | jebba: on the other hand, i have this weird thing "against" kickstarter | 16:08 |
| kanzure | lasersaur raised $20k on kickstarter for an open source laser cutter | 16:08 |
| kanzure | then went and had a giant party | 16:08 |
| kanzure | kickstarter is great and all though :) and donations to non-profits are usually crowdsourced (especially cancer orgs) | 16:08 |
| jebba | there's a guy locally here that is developing a 32bit board, but wants to make it some sort of CC "not for commercial use" or somesuch, but is open to having it gplv3 or CC-truly-open for pay. As an example. | 16:08 |
| kanzure | eh, open source hardware licensing is still a clusterfuck | 16:09 |
| kanzure | copyright doesn't necessarily do what you want it to do here. | 16:09 |
| fenn | i dont really get the whole 'non commercial thing' | 16:09 |
| gleapsite | kanzure: not everyone on kickstarter is a non-profit. alot of them are LLCs | 16:09 |
| kanzure | gleapsite: really? kickstarter says they are anti-business | 16:09 |
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| fenn | nobody's going to bother selling your open source thingy until there's a proven market for it, in which case you should already have a large market share | 16:10 |
| fenn | but, said people would never have bought your thingy unless it was open source in the first place, so either you get 1) a fair sized amount of sales or 2) nothing | 16:11 |
| fenn | it's the classic fairness bias | 16:12 |
| gleapsite | lemme find you an example kanzure, but I think what they mean when they say anti-business is more anti-publishing/venture capital firms | 16:12 |
| kanzure | kickstarter is how people are doing market testing | 16:12 |
| kanzure | gleapsite: i just mean from looking at their terms on the 'create a project page' | 16:12 |
| gleapsite | here's an example of an LLC funded via kickstarter: http://www.mysterybrewingco.com/tag/kickstarter/ http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mysterybrewing/mystery-brewing-company | 16:13 |
| fenn | another one http://www.theglif.com/ | 16:14 |
| gleapsite | yeah. | 16:14 |
| kanzure | anyway, it just seems like scraping the bottom of the barrel for funding | 16:15 |
| gleapsite | also, just saw that pioneerone episode 2 is out | 16:15 |
| kanzure | since humanity+ is a non-profit i can just set up a merchant account and do something similar anyway | 16:15 |
| kanzure | but traditionally the org has got large 5-digit-or-more donations from philanthropists | 16:15 |
| kanzure | i have no idea *why* but it's happened. | 16:15 |
| gleapsite | this is something you operate? | 16:16 |
| kanzure | gleapsite: i'm a director of r&d for http://humanityplus.org/ | 16:16 |
| kanzure | a non-profit for transhumanism/human enhancement tech | 16:16 |
| gleapsite | awesome | 16:16 |
| kanzure | fuck yeah! | 16:16 |
| gleapsite | I started my first non-profit about this time last year | 16:16 |
| gleapsite | sadly its not H+related | 16:17 |
| kanzure | so, i need to figure out how to manage money like this for open source projects | 16:18 |
| kanzure | i'm not a big fan of grant proposal requests because they tend to be in too many directions | 16:19 |
| kanzure | "directed philanthropy" is neat in concept (but all too often (like with the myelin repair foundation) it's all about gaming the intellectual property system and proprietary info) | 16:19 |
| gleapsite | crowdsourcing venture capital is a fairly new funding model | 16:20 |
| QuantumG | kiva ftw | 16:20 |
| kanzure | gleapsite: not really.. cancer orgs raise hundreds of millions every year | 16:20 |
| kanzure | by crowdsourcing. | 16:20 |
| gleapsite | venture capital is a bit different than donations | 16:20 |
| gleapsite | which have always been crowdsourced | 16:21 |
| kanzure | huh? kickstarter projects don't give you equity | 16:21 |
| gleapsite | no. but you're free to make a profit from the funds so long as you meet the terms for the donations | 16:21 |
| QuantumG | indeed. Kickstarter is just "promise to give me money if enough people also promise and I'll give you some rewards" | 16:22 |
| kanzure | speaking of which, i could really use some more volunteers for nanoengineer | 16:24 |
| kanzure | as a last resort i can start paying someone to be an active maintainer or something | 16:24 |
| kanzure | i'm clearly not performing as well as i should be | 16:24 |
| kanzure | certainly not at the original nanorex salaries :P | 16:24 |
| gleapsite | is it OSS? | 16:25 |
| kanzure | uh hell yes? | 16:25 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer | 16:26 |
| kanzure | image gallery: http://nanoengineer-1.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=50 | 16:26 |
| kanzure | it's open-source nanotech/molecular machine CAD | 16:26 |
| gleapsite | I see python | 16:26 |
| gleapsite | what modules are you using? | 16:26 |
| kanzure | written mostly in python, yeah | 16:26 |
| kanzure | oh man, tons of crap | 16:26 |
| kanzure | a lot of the code is python 2.3 plus minor fixes | 16:26 |
| gleapsite | numpy, scipy | 16:27 |
| kanzure | qt4 | 16:27 |
| kanzure | gromacs | 16:27 |
| gleapsite | My full time job is developing 3d electromagnetic modeling/simulation systems in python | 16:27 |
| kanzure | do you work for enthought | 16:27 |
| kanzure | opengl | 16:28 |
| gleapsite | no. | 16:28 |
| gleapsite | I contract to the MDA | 16:28 |
| gleapsite | =(missile defense agency) | 16:28 |
| kanzure | i don't recall seeing numpy in the ne-1 sources, but i'd be surprised if the answer is no | 16:28 |
| Lukas__ | O_O | 16:29 |
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| gleapsite | most of my knowledge revolves around digital signal processing. chemistry (and by association nanotech) is a dark black magic to me | 16:30 |
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| kanzure | hi timschmidt | 16:30 |
| timschmidt | howdy | 16:30 |
| kanzure | gleapsite: there's a few books/papers i can point you at | 16:30 |
| kanzure | http://rfreitas.com/ for papers | 16:30 |
| kanzure | hrm.. when i finish my uploading this will work: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/nanotech/ but right now it's not up yet :( | 16:31 |
| timschmidt | I've just decided (in another conversation) that Alestair Crowley gave the members of Lead Zeppelin +8 tight jeans of charisma... thought I'd share. | 16:31 |
| kanzure | timschmidt: so, i'm thinking about ditching the grand reprap prize in exchange for just using the money to directly pay for the desired developments | 16:31 |
| timschmidt | hmmm | 16:31 |
| timschmidt | tempting | 16:31 |
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| jrayhawk | 403 forbidden | 16:31 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: because it's not there yet | 16:32 |
| jrayhawk | bah | 16:32 |
| kanzure | that's rsync's fault | 16:32 |
| kanzure | actually, all of the subdirectories of papers/ should be accessible | 16:32 |
| jrayhawk | oh, you're doing -a? | 16:32 |
| kanzure | but i seem to have to manually chmod +x each of them | 16:32 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: yes | 16:33 |
| timschmidt | so the hard part in this might be deciding what developments are desired | 16:33 |
| jrayhawk | weirdo | 16:33 |
| timschmidt | specifically | 16:33 |
| kanzure | i don't want random grants and to have to approve them, | 16:33 |
| kanzure | i'd like a reprap roadmap and say "we're going in this direction, make it do XYZ here's $10k" | 16:33 |
| timschmidt | heh | 16:33 |
| timschmidt | I'd love that too | 16:33 |
| kanzure | or "here's $2k for an skdb/reprap demo" | 16:33 |
| timschmidt | but Adrian will not | 16:33 |
| kanzure | why not? | 16:34 |
| kanzure | he's not getting this money anyway | 16:34 |
| kanzure | adrian is involved in the gada prize, as a judge and advisor, so he's in the loop | 16:34 |
| timschmidt | Because he has some romantic theory about development being some sort of unguided evolution | 16:34 |
| kanzure | that's fine.. but not when money is involved | 16:34 |
| timschmidt | agreed | 16:34 |
| kanzure | unless you have some development you want to convince me to pay for, in which case i'll listen | 16:34 |
| kanzure | i feel a little dirty for suggesting skdb-related stuff should be involved if the $80k doesn't go towards a grand prize | 16:35 |
| jrayhawk | Most likely having an 'official' fund would actually be socially disruptive anyway. | 16:35 |
| timschmidt | I do... not $80k worth, and others should have their say as well | 16:35 |
| kanzure | but on the other hand, hardware packages are really needed | 16:35 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: what? socially disruptive in a bad way? | 16:35 |
| kanzure | reprap research foundation could have their own fund if they want but i don't think they want to? | 16:35 |
| kanzure | or what's up with that anyway | 16:35 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, Debian tried it for a while and wound up alienating a surprising number of developers. | 16:36 |
| timschmidt | RRRF is gone | 16:36 |
| kanzure | what was debian funding? | 16:36 |
| kanzure | do they still pay for traveling to conferences? | 16:36 |
| kanzure | what a waste of pay.. :P | 16:36 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.google.com/search?q=dunc+tank | 16:37 |
| kanzure | http://ianmurdock.com/debian/dunc-tank-debian-and-leadership/ | 16:37 |
| kanzure | i don't really see what the specific problem was | 16:38 |
| timschmidt | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HumMyN0Q8Gc | 16:40 |
| jrayhawk | There are a lot of different motivations behind what DDs do; the introduction of money made the atmosphere much more political. | 16:40 |
| timschmidt | money errodes trust | 16:40 |
| kanzure | well, prizes breed secrecy | 16:41 |
| kanzure | or, prize money specifically | 16:41 |
| timschmidt | agreed | 16:41 |
| gleapsite | In his book remix lessig proposed that there are two economies: the one that trades on capital (money for goods) and one that trades on karma (how you associate w/ your friends/family) He was looking at how to create a hybrid of the two | 16:42 |
| jrayhawk | The idea is to keep your prizes project-unofficial so project managers don't wind up being viewed as playing favorites. | 16:42 |
| timschmidt | right | 16:42 |
| timschmidt | that seems a good idea | 16:42 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: we're talking about getting rid of the prize faccade | 16:42 |
| kanzure | and replacing it with "here's $2500 to build a super reprap" | 16:43 |
| kanzure | er, "and package it and make it work" | 16:43 |
| timschmidt | I would gladly build a SLS reprap for $2500 :D | 16:43 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, but even your current level of collusion is a little socially dangerous; it's really not a good idea to attack adrian for wanting to stay neutral. | 16:43 |
| kanzure | attack? | 16:44 |
| jrayhawk | 16:34 < timschmidt> Because he has some romantic theory about development being some sort of unguided evolution | 16:44 |
| timschmidt | jrayhawk: I didn't mean to attack him, only you point out that he might not be willing to create a roadmap | 16:44 |
| timschmidt | with specific goals | 16:44 |
| timschmidt | it's not his type of thing | 16:44 |
| jrayhawk | Okay, well, if his theory is romantic, it is, at least, I think, also rational by coincidence. | 16:44 |
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| kanzure | i think it's fine that he doesn't have specific goals | 16:45 |
| timschmidt | I don't think it's particularly rational to say that things will 'just happen' in the way that's best. Software development (which RepRap _is_) takes planning. | 16:46 |
| timschmidt | but we're off topic at this point | 16:46 |
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| kanzure | timschmidt: jrayhawk is trying to point out some social history from debian that is largely relevant | 16:46 |
| timschmidt | certainly | 16:46 |
| kanzure | k | 16:46 |
| timschmidt | and I agree wholeheartedly with that | 16:46 |
| timschmidt | an outsider should administer the funds | 16:47 |
| kanzure | aww i'm an outsider :( | 16:47 |
| timschmidt | :P | 16:47 |
| jrayhawk | ha ha ha | 16:47 |
| kanzure | stop laughing at my expense! i have money, i'm important!! | 16:47 |
| timschmidt | :) | 16:47 |
| timschmidt | the hard part, as I mentioned earlier, will be coming to a consensus on a list of worthwhile goals | 16:48 |
| timschmidt | perhaps you can get Adrian's sign-off to use your own judgement? | 16:48 |
| jrayhawk | That would be wise on his part. | 16:48 |
| kanzure | heh if this works i'm totally going to commission a study on the theory of replication | 16:49 |
| kanzure | and force adrian to co-author with freitas and hod lipson for once | 16:49 |
| kanzure | (not really- that's probably not needed) | 16:50 |
| timschmidt | what about the theory are you interested in finding out | 16:50 |
| timschmidt | ? | 16:50 |
| kanzure | timschmidt: i'm suggesting adrian's theoretical framework for self-replication is less developed than freitas' theoretical analysis in KSRM and AASM | 16:50 |
| kanzure | http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/ | 16:50 |
| kanzure | http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/5.6.htm | 16:50 |
| kanzure | i'm primarily mentioning this since adrian sees himself as a scholar, btw | 16:51 |
| kanzure | so scholarly things probably intrigue him. | 16:51 |
| timschmidt | indeed | 16:51 |
| kanzure | so, from the perspective of humanity+, stuff that would be nice to fund related to reprap | 16:52 |
| kanzure | is making jordan miller's tissue printing stuff more open source | 16:52 |
| kanzure | skdb | 16:52 |
| kanzure | cheaper BOMs | 16:52 |
| kanzure | better support for multiple materials | 16:52 |
| kanzure | openscad/lolcad/brlcad-related stuff | 16:53 |
| timschmidt | printable lab equipment? | 16:53 |
| kanzure | yep | 16:53 |
| kanzure | but i dunno if that qualifies as being directly under the reprap umbrella *shrug* | 16:53 |
| timschmidt | me either | 16:53 |
| timschmidt | meh | 16:53 |
| QuantumG | printable pets | 16:53 |
| kanzure | diybio equipment that would be nice to build: | 16:54 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/BOMs/diybio-equipment.yaml | 16:54 |
| kanzure | various transhuman tech projects: | 16:54 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/diytranshuman_projects.v3.txt | 16:54 |
| timschmidt | good to know | 16:54 |
| timschmidt | I may work on some of this stuff just for fun | 16:54 |
| timschmidt | finding something to design is the hardest part | 16:54 |
| kanzure | orly | 16:54 |
| timschmidt | rly | 16:54 |
| kanzure | i think a lot of this stuff is already out there on lots of random DIY sites | 16:55 |
| kanzure | so packaging is a big priority | 16:55 |
| gleapsite | dude. I can funnel you tons of ideas for things to design | 16:55 |
| kanzure | or fixing the crap out there | 16:55 |
| timschmidt | gleapsite: timschmidt at gmail dot com | 16:55 |
| kanzure | typical fablab equipment: | 16:56 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/tree/doc/BOMs/comparison/fablab.yaml | 16:56 |
| timschmidt | I picked up a 1/6 horse AC motor today for $2 | 16:56 |
| timschmidt | I'll need something to use it with | 16:56 |
| kanzure | oops i meant | 16:56 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/BOMs/comparison/fablab.yaml | 16:56 |
| kanzure | also techshop stuff: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/BOMs/comparison/techshop.yaml | 16:56 |
| timschmidt | I'll start dumping some of this into the reprap wiki tonight | 16:57 |
| kanzure | why | 16:57 |
| kanzure | isn't that a step backwards :P | 16:57 |
| timschmidt | A bit... but it's a nice temporary scratch space | 16:57 |
| Lukas__ | Are any of the diytranshuman projects active? | 16:59 |
| kanzure | presently no | 16:59 |
| kanzure | humanity+ might sponsor biocurious | 16:59 |
| kanzure | especially if joe gets rid of tito and eri | 17:00 |
| Lukas__ | Explain please? | 17:00 |
| kanzure | does someone else want to explain tito/eri for me | 17:00 |
| timschmidt | I have no idea | 17:00 |
| Lukas__ | Damn are they that bad? | 17:01 |
| kanzure | they seem to more be into this stuff to attach their names to so they get more publicity | 17:01 |
| kanzure | they are like a social plague or something | 17:02 |
| Lukas__ | oh, those types | 17:02 |
| timschmidt | I just want my damn singularity | 17:02 |
| Lukas__ | I hope humanity+ sponsors biocurious | 17:02 |
| kanzure | the other obvious thing to do is for me to do a hackerspace for transhuman tech | 17:02 |
| kanzure | but i'd need money to pay rent | 17:03 |
| timschmidt | right | 17:03 |
| Lukas__ | how much money are you talking about? | 17:03 |
| timschmidt | rent for a decent size building is likely to run $1000 / month | 17:03 |
| kanzure | well, some sort of steady stream of money so that rent can be paid monthly for enough time to be relevant | 17:03 |
| kanzure | i.e. 3mo of rent (what biocurious raised?) is totally worthless | 17:03 |
| gleapsite | we're running hack.rva on 20 members paying 30$/mo. supplemented w/ tuition for classes we teach | 17:04 |
| kanzure | yeah i'm not interested in praying that i pick a location with 20 transhumanists who "just so happen" to be lifetime members | 17:04 |
| kanzure | doesn't seem like a good strategy :( | 17:04 |
| Lukas__ | Yea, that'd be terrible | 17:04 |
| Lukas__ | Market approach? | 17:04 |
| timschmidt | kanzure: you need an endowment | 17:05 |
| timschmidt | :) | 17:05 |
| kanzure | timschmidt: i have one somewhere but apparently i'm not old enough? | 17:05 |
| timschmidt | hmmm | 17:06 |
| Lukas__ | Shouldn't your activity in the community count for something? | 17:06 |
| timschmidt | if you could get 4% interest, on $80k, that's $3200 | 17:06 |
| timschmidt | yearly | 17:06 |
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| timschmidt | I would almost rather see that set up ($3000 / year paid reprap development) | 17:06 |
| QuantumG | so long as it is adequately directed, sure | 17:07 |
| timschmidt | then if people want to add to the endowment, they can | 17:07 |
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| QuantumG | if all they're going to do is more of the same then what's the point | 17:07 |
| QuantumG | and that's what the reprap community seems to be doing for the most part | 17:07 |
| kanzure | so, my original idea back in 2009 was to structure this as a co-op | 17:08 |
| timschmidt | most of the current effort has been toward lowered BOM (which has been done stunningly well), and replication | 17:08 |
| kanzure | so that the co-op owns the tools and equipment, which get put somewhere | 17:08 |
| kanzure | this way, you don't need an absolute location, just where-ever co-op members happen to be | 17:08 |
| kanzure | co-op members would 'rent' from the co-op to use equipment in their business or whatever, | 17:08 |
| QuantumG | printing PCBs is a great idea.. but no machine has been built.. not even attempts as far as I'm aware | 17:08 |
| kanzure | and that rent would be used to sustain some central location | 17:09 |
| kanzure | this could also work through a non-profit i suppose | 17:09 |
| timschmidt | kanzure: that sounds possible | 17:09 |
| kanzure | a fleet of 50 laser cutters bringing in $1/min for 200 min/mo is $10k/mo which definitely covers a hackerspace's expenses ;) | 17:10 |
| kanzure | (that's without factoring out local overhead from each rented laser cutter) | 17:10 |
| Lukas__ | what does the initial investment look like? | 17:11 |
| timschmidt | can you buy 50 laser cutters for $80k? | 17:11 |
| kanzure | based on the price i paid for my last one.. yes | 17:11 |
| timschmidt | huh | 17:11 |
| kanzure | it's a little old school though :) | 17:12 |
| timschmidt | I've seen small 12" square 40W units on ebay for $700ish | 17:12 |
| timschmidt | plus shipping | 17:12 |
| kanzure | haha that's way overpriced | 17:12 |
| kanzure | unless it was built.. yesterday | 17:12 |
| timschmidt | they were new | 17:14 |
| fenn | or you could have one laser cutter running constantly for the same amount | 17:15 |
| kanzure | 200 min/mo ea. was a lower estimate because i have no idea what the market demand is for laz0rs | 17:16 |
| kanzure | laz0rz | 17:16 |
| fenn | depends on the local hype field | 17:16 |
| kanzure | i've had one or two people pay to use my cutter | 17:16 |
| fenn | what did they make? | 17:16 |
| kanzure | (although i'm doing no word of mouth or advertizing) | 17:17 |
| kanzure | perforated cardboard advertisements | 17:17 |
| fenn | yeah i actually forgot you had one | 17:17 |
| kanzure | cabinet wood designs | 17:17 |
| gleapsite | so take a magnetic sheet printed w/ robot eyes and nobs and dials and laser cut them out. then sell it so people can put them on their home appliances to turn everything into robots. | 17:18 |
| Lukas__ | XD | 17:18 |
| Lukas__ | Market solution ftw | 17:18 |
| Lukas__ | I had an idea | 17:25 |
| Lukas__ | since I make youtube videos, I figured I can start advertising for the respective hackerspaces and their latest projects | 17:25 |
| Lukas__ | to build some more internet support for what's going on | 17:26 |
| Lukas__ | it's the best I can do, seeing as how I am a poor college student | 17:26 |
| kanzure | fenn: renting a fleet of laser cutters out doesn't trigger your anti-rent-seeking gland in your brain? | 17:29 |
| fenn | huh | 17:30 |
| fenn | i just dont think it's realistic because not that many people want to use laser cutters | 17:30 |
| fenn | at least, not pay for them per minute | 17:31 |
| kanzure | oh, that's actually how most laser shops do it | 17:31 |
| fenn | then you're competing with ponoko or whoever | 17:31 |
| kanzure | ponoko isn't particularly cheap :P | 17:32 |
| fenn | i was surprised how cheap shapeways is | 17:39 |
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| CryptoQuick | so, joshcryer, finally loaded up the IRC again :) | 19:51 |
| kanzure | hi CryptoQuick | 19:53 |
| CryptoQuick | Hi, kanzure! I subscribe to the Open Manufacturing list, so I see your messages... often :) | 19:54 |
| kanzure | sorry about that | 20:04 |
| kanzure | om is getting kind of slow lately | 20:04 |
| CryptoQuick | hey, it's all good. hey, RepRap seems to be making some progress these days | 20:04 |
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| kanzure | hi thesnark | 20:14 |
| thesnark | hey kanzure | 20:14 |
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| CryptoQuick | so, kanzure, what are you up to these days? and why you greeting everybody? lonely? :) | 20:19 |
| kanzure | i don't know what i'm up to please tell the internet to stop sending me email | 20:19 |
| * kanzure is away doing stuff at the moment | 20:20 | |
| * thesnark knows that feeling | 20:23 | |
| kanzure | but you can read logs from today | 20:29 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-01-14.log | 20:29 |
| alystair | would be cool if we could see tomorrow's logs :p | 20:50 |
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| CryptoQuick | :) | 21:06 |
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| JayDugger | Good evening, everyone. | 21:55 |
| CryptoQuick | good hi | 21:55 |
| CryptoQuick | off to make an h plus pizza, bbiab | 21:56 |
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| joshcryer | wtf hey CryptoQuick | 22:38 |
| * jebba printed (personal) first 3d object. wrench.gcode :) | 22:40 | |
| joshcryer | QuantumG, did fucking congress just force NASA to build Falcon XX? http://commerce.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=67657ee7-1953-4b62-a78c-ae1d4a9e1a29 | 22:43 |
| joshcryer | Saw your tweet. | 22:43 |
| joshcryer | (well, retweet of Jeff Foust's tweet) | 22:43 |
| joshcryer | Hilarious sidenote: NASA choses Falcon XX, Congress whines that it kills jobs. Lulz continue. | 22:44 |
| * joshcryer reads NASA's prelim report to see if it even mentions Falcon XX | 22:47 | |
| JayDugger | joshcryer, I think you've got a rare case of a government agency making an honest, good-faith, and accurate project estimate. | 22:47 |
| JayDugger | It doesn't. | 22:48 |
| JayDugger | Congratulations, jebba! | 22:48 |
| joshcryer | JayDugger, I think it's pretty crazy that they'd dare tell Congress that they can't afford the thing, haha. Wow. | 22:49 |
| JayDugger | Unusual, but perhaps it exemplifies brinksmanship. | 22:49 |
| joshcryer | jebba, can we please see pics? | 22:49 |
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| loopa | I'm trying to prepare an aluminum hydroxide gel from aluminum hydroxide powder. The paper I'm looking at calls for "... .. the aluminum hydroxide gel was the alpha-modification of [Willstatter, Kraut and Erbacher]". Does anyone have any suggestions on how to create this gel? | 22:52 |
| JayDugger | I don't, loopa. | 22:52 |
| joshcryer | Afraid not loopa, maybe try #chemistry ? | 22:55 |
| jebba | joshcryer: http://www.jebbaville.org/photos/2011/shapercube/f1rstprint/1024x768/ JayDugger thx | 22:56 |
| jebba | no masterpiece, but it workz | 22:57 |
| joshcryer | jebba, thank you! | 22:57 |
| joshcryer | It looks amazing! | 22:57 |
| joshcryer | Oh man that is prototyper porn. | 22:57 |
| jebba | lol | 22:58 |
| jebba | if you're that excited, the parent directory has some nice jams! ;) | 22:58 |
| jebba | err, well, up two and take a left | 22:58 |
| joshcryer | I hope you have a lot of bandwidth... ;) | 22:58 |
| jebba | oh, plenty enough for that image. | 22:59 |
| joshcryer | Nice camera, too. | 22:59 |
| joshcryer | (NIKON D3000) | 22:59 |
| jebba | thx nikon | 22:59 |
| jebba | i had a d70 once upon a time... | 22:59 |
| joshcryer | jebba, nice extrusion, could use some work, but I'm impressed. | 23:00 |
| joshcryer | Thanks so much for sharing those. | 23:01 |
| jebba | I tried to print another one asap after that one, but it just clogged up, which is quite a task to clean out. In this case, it's jammed in the extruder. | 23:02 |
| joshcryer | Do you find the metal encasing useful or is it just for looks? | 23:02 |
| jebba | I'm open to any suggestions you have, if you see things that are obvious to you (i've never even seen a 3d printer besides my own). | 23:02 |
| joshcryer | I mean I can possibly imagine heating problems and such. | 23:02 |
| CryptoQuick | sup joshcryer :) | 23:03 |
| CryptoQuick | pizza was delicious | 23:03 |
| joshcryer | jebba, I think I have more questions than suggestions, to be honest. I haven't made a RepRap yet. :/ | 23:03 |
| CryptoQuick | nice prototyper porn | 23:03 |
| jebba | Well, it makes the whole thing seriously solid. I have a Huxley I just started piecing together and they are in pretty different leagues. The shapercube is way more solid. But it is also sometimes hard to work inside the case. And its a hella lot of parts. So unjamming the extruder is quite more work that perhaps it could be. | 23:04 |
| joshcryer | Hey CryptoQuick | 23:04 |
| CryptoQuick | :) | 23:04 |
| jebba | ah joshcryer, fire away, i'll answer what i can, but i'm new at this too. | 23:04 |
| joshcryer | jebba, is that a power supply inside the back of the ShaperCube? | 23:05 |
| jebba | thx CryptoQuick | 23:05 |
| jebba | joshcryer: ya, ATX | 23:05 |
| joshcryer | Nice. :D | 23:05 |
| jebba | Note, this is Shapercube 1.0, which was released like April 2010. I just started putting it together in December (sat there for quite awhile over the summer). They have a shapercube 2.0 out now. | 23:06 |
| joshcryer | jebba, arduino's for the internal logic? They look like arduinos but I dunno. | 23:06 |
| jebba | Ya, megas | 23:06 |
| jebba | This is some older/earlier mendel electronics AFAIK | 23:06 |
| joshcryer | OOH, I thought this was your own prototyper that you named shapercube, hehe | 23:06 |
| keen_101 | jebba, it looks very nice. I like the case. | 23:06 |
| jebba | joshcryer: oh, by no means at all. I thought you seemed mighty impressed. I'm a mere assemble kiddie. ;) | 23:07 |
| joshcryer | jebba, I still like it, thought I admit I am less impressed, I will say that I am still impressed, just not as much. ;D | 23:07 |
| jebba | http://www.shapercube.com http://wiki.shapercube.com are the folks that made the kit. The kit, however, was about as absolutely disassembled as possible with occassional docs...so there is still quite a bit to putting the scuker together ;) | 23:08 |
| joshcryer | It still appears to take a lot of skill to put this thing together. | 23:08 |
| JayDugger | jebba, do you think the shapercube better than your huxley? | 23:08 |
| joshcryer | Yeah :D | 23:08 |
| CryptoQuick | lawdy, that shapercube is pretty sweet | 23:08 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, and they have a matching price tag. :) | 23:09 |
| joshcryer | Price tag is a bit steep for me. | 23:09 |
| CryptoQuick | paul krugman sez the euro is failing | 23:09 |
| jebba | JayDugger: i just started on the huxley recently so it hasnt printed anything. So I can't compare in terms of what i like better. The shapercube i know at least can print (though i may change the extruder). The huxley is waaaaaaaaaaaaay less parts and far less to assemble. | 23:10 |
| joshcryer | CryptoQuick, it's $1300. | 23:10 |
| JayDugger | jebba, did you get the Huxley from a kit? | 23:10 |
| CryptoQuick | joshcryer: I can do a google :V | 23:10 |
| joshcryer | CryptoQuick, I told marsbot to convert for me. ;P | 23:10 |
| jebba | http://techzonecom.com/detail.php?pr_id=48 <-- that's the Huxley I got. I can certainly say it was nicely packaged and organized. Came in a box only the size of a loaf of bread or so! | 23:11 |
| JayDugger | I like that price much better. | 23:11 |
| joshcryer | JayDugger, are Huxley print parts printed with a RepRap? | 23:11 |
| jebba | You could probably put together like 5 huxleys in the time of a shapercube. But the shapercube is ridiculously more solid. | 23:12 |
| joshcryer | JayDugger, yes I think that you can get a microitx board for the same cost as an arduino... | 23:12 |
| jebba | joshcryer: the huxley printed parts from techzone looked like they were printed from a mendel-like printer. | 23:12 |
| joshcryer | jebba, ahh, yes I should have asked you. That is very nice if so! | 23:12 |
| jebba | i was suprised how light all the parts are. But solid, reasonably. | 23:13 |
| JayDugger | Jebba, have you found the sturdiness of the Shapercube worth the extra money? | 23:13 |
| CryptoQuick | also, shapercube seems to have subtractive as well as additive prototyping :V | 23:13 |
| JayDugger | Oh? | 23:14 |
| joshcryer | jebba, looking at your Huxly pics now. | 23:14 |
| jebba | I'd suggest a Mendel Huxley or a Mendel Prusa for the first time, perhaps. | 23:14 |
| joshcryer | Wooden gears? | 23:15 |
| CryptoQuick | oh wait, CNC doesn't automatically mean milling :T | 23:15 |
| jebba | The shapercube2 is supposed to have dual extruders RSN. It's definitely a step up in complexity from huxley/prusa. | 23:15 |
| jebba | CryptoQuick: i do have a contraptor that just arrived this week too :) | 23:16 |
| jebba | That's an open CNC machine you use with a dremel-like tool. | 23:16 |
| CryptoQuick | there's so much awesome developments in this field besides reprap, I didn't even know | 23:16 |
| jebba | joshcryer: ya, those are wooden gears. They look so cool. I'll get a better pic of them next time i take fotos | 23:17 |
| jebba | thingiverse is getting a bit populated now too | 23:17 |
| kanzure | jebba: dunno if i blabbed to you about gitduino.com | 23:18 |
| kanzure | but i've been meaning to make a github+thingiverse site for a while now.. | 23:18 |
| kanzure | also @all, today/tomorrow is the last day to sign up at humanity+ to vote in the board of directors election | 23:19 |
| kanzure | here's the humanity+ newsletter with the candidate statements today: | 23:19 |
| kanzure | http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/692318/f22fe33e4c/282259487/ee40199c20/ | 23:19 |
| joshcryer | Are you telling me to vote for you? | 23:19 |
| CryptoQuick | oh hey, there you are Kanz | 23:19 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: that would be nice of you | 23:20 |
| jebba | http://www.makergear.com http://www.makerbot.com http://www.contraptor.org/ http://ultimachine.com/ http://www.botmill.com/ http://techzonecom.com <--- some useful links for reprappy stuff | 23:20 |
| kanzure | jebba: if you like contraptor you might like http://makerbeam.com/ | 23:20 |
| CryptoQuick | whoa, monthly membership fees | 23:21 |
| jebba | kanzure, oh ya, i'm familiar with makerbeam, although i havent seen any yet | 23:21 |
| jebba | dunno about gitduino unless its some part of skdb ;) | 23:21 |
| kanzure | think of gitduino as a secret front for skdb | 23:21 |
| kanzure | since thingiverse gets the data model all wrong (in terms of packaging/reuse) | 23:22 |
| joshcryer | CryptoQuick, omg, I just saw that. | 23:22 |
| joshcryer | Win. (Fail.) | 23:23 |
| joshcryer | I was all going to give kanzure my vote and everything. | 23:23 |
| CryptoQuick | you know how much nissin noodles $5 covers? much less $30... | 23:23 |
| kanzure | CryptoQuick: yeah, i don't know why we have members anyway | 23:23 |
| CryptoQuick | I wouldn't mind if it was, like, a yearly $30, that wouldn't be too bad | 23:23 |
| CryptoQuick | or $50 even | 23:23 |
| CryptoQuick | but monthly commitments scare me | 23:23 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty sure you can pay all at once | 23:24 |
| CryptoQuick | do they give you a discount? | 23:24 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, lol, I like your advocacy in public logs. | 23:24 |
| joshcryer | kanzure deserves to win. | 23:24 |
| kanzure | hm? | 23:24 |
| kanzure | public logs? | 23:24 |
| joshcryer | the logs aren't public? | 23:24 |
| kanzure | oh this channel? | 23:24 |
| kanzure | sure they are | 23:24 |
| joshcryer | right. | 23:24 |
| kanzure | but like 5 people read the logs | 23:25 |
| kanzure | big deal :P | 23:25 |
| CryptoQuick | there are logs? | 23:25 |
| CryptoQuick | should I, like, not say bad things then? | 23:25 |
| joshcryer | "potential board member for h+ 'doesn't know why h+ has paying members" | 23:25 |
| joshcryer | is that not lulzy? :P | 23:25 |
| joshcryer | CryptoQuick gets me. :P | 23:25 |
| kanzure | CryptoQuick: say whatever you want | 23:26 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: oh i know "why" | 23:26 |
| joshcryer | CryptoQuick, I say bad things all the time | 23:26 |
| kanzure | it's because "that's the way things are done" | 23:26 |
| CryptoQuick | dude, if I could get in on joshcryer , I would be <3 | 23:26 |
| kanzure | but there's no *reason* especially if they don't even bother to maintain a membership database | 23:26 |
| * CryptoQuick mancrushes joshcryer | 23:26 | |
| jebba | kanzure, other thing is thingiverse is easily censored. So if making something that fills that roll, make sure it isnt as easy to take out as a website. | 23:26 |
| kanzure | like what possible value does an average transhumanist get from humanity+? | 23:26 |
| joshcryer | 'nohomo' | 23:26 |
| kanzure | jebba: yeah.. git is awesome like that | 23:26 |
| CryptoQuick | I wonder how many penises have been uploaded to thingiverse | 23:27 |
| jebba | kanzure, but then do you have the entire git parts universe? | 23:27 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, I honest to god didn't even *know* that you had to pay, I mean, there was no indication that ther ewas anything to pay *for* | 23:27 |
| CryptoQuick | and how many penis-like objects have been taken off even though their original intention was not to be penis-like | 23:27 |
| joshcryer | at least imminst says "look shit is free but pay us and we'll do cool stuff" | 23:27 |
| kanzure | jebba: what? | 23:27 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: well exactly- what's their to pay for? | 23:27 |
| jebba | well, do you have *all* the parts in your git archive? | 23:27 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: one of the bad ideas floating around by the board members is a "private" social network lol | 23:28 |
| jebba | if so, that's one potentially huge git archive (with history, etc, which git never loses) | 23:28 |
| kanzure | jebba: sorry i was assuming you read package_spec already, um | 23:28 |
| uniqanomaly | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXorPRK41FE | 23:28 |
| kanzure | jebba: the concept is that individual hardware projects should be distributed as an skdb-defined hardware package, which are just git repos | 23:28 |
| * jebba goes back to look at it | 23:28 | |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/package_spec.yaml | 23:29 |
| kanzure | jebba: it was written basically.. yesterday | 23:29 |
| kanzure | so it's entirely possible it's not 100% clear | 23:29 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: what 'cool stuff' does imminst do? | 23:30 |
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| JayDugger | What status does Makerbeam have? | 23:30 |
| kanzure | "If you vote for me, I pledge to abolish the membership system." <-- self-defeating? | 23:30 |
| JayDugger | No. | 23:31 |
| jebba | ok, so lets say you have something like a reprap mendel. Would that be one git archive? Or a ton of little git archives? I guess it seems almost like a screw would have it's own git archive, and reprap would have a thousand git archives below it (??) | 23:31 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: sam putnam raised money via kickstarter, produced some physical instances, people were happy | 23:31 |
| fenn | jebba: the latter | 23:31 |
| kanzure | jebba: that's a good question.. to be fair, there is a reprap.git repo floating around here | 23:31 |
| JayDugger | Great. Where's the order form? | 23:31 |
| kanzure | jebba: reprap.skdb or reprap.git or whatever should depend on the 'screw' package | 23:31 |
| fenn | jebba: but there's be one "mendel" archive that makes the end product | 23:32 |
| jebba | ok, so you're talking potentially hundreds of thousands of git archives. | 23:32 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, a general donation doesn't do anything. | 23:32 |
| fenn | one per part family | 23:32 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, except pay for pizza / beer, afaik. | 23:32 |
| fenn | "potentially" is meaningless without a context | 23:32 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, but they have "other stuff" you can donate too. | 23:32 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: you probably have to email Sam Putman <sam@makerbeam.com> | 23:33 |
| QuantumG | hehe, every time there's a new Firefox 4 beta out people go apeshit over the changes | 23:33 |
| QuantumG | I've been using Minefield for so long now that I don't even notice them | 23:33 |
| JayDugger | Yeah...FF's still broken. | 23:33 |
| joshcryer | opera ftw | 23:33 |
| kanzure | if they haven't fixed threading then i don't care | 23:33 |
| kanzure | i mean in firefox, not on screws | 23:33 |
| kanzure | damnit | 23:33 |
| QuantumG | if by fixed you mean made lots worse, then yes, they've fixed it | 23:33 |
| kanzure | don't let the topics cross | 23:34 |
| fenn | oh no we've gotten cross-threaded | 23:34 |
| JayDugger | Semantic sorting is a user err^H^Hducation problem. | 23:34 |
| kanzure | jebba: there are millions of patents, btw | 23:34 |
| kanzure | a giant 50 page document for a 'patent' is basically useless to any advanced civilization | 23:34 |
| fenn | look, drawings! | 23:34 |
| kanzure | WORDS | 23:34 |
| fenn | old timey fonts! | 23:35 |
| AlonzoTG | om | 23:35 |
| joshcryer | KEY PRESSES | 23:35 |
| fenn | i love that we still use 1890s typography conventions for patent documents | 23:35 |
| kanzure | really? | 23:35 |
| joshcryer | I am going to patent wasd! | 23:35 |
| jebba | kanzure, then perhaps you could have something like a mendel be a "project" instead of a package. You grab a project that grabs a ton of packages (screws, threaded rods, motors). So the mendel.proj file could just be #!/bin/sh git clone this-screw.git ; git clone that-screw.git ; git clone foo-motor.git .... etc | 23:35 |
| kanzure | there was this funny graph in a research paper about debian | 23:35 |
| kanzure | it was projecting 100,000 packages by 2006 | 23:36 |
| fenn | jebba: you're missing the point, that packages depend on other packages | 23:36 |
| kanzure | instead debian tapered off around 20 to 30,000 i think, depending on how you squint | 23:36 |
| jebba | kanzure, ya i was just thinking about what it would be like managing so many git archives | 23:36 |
| fenn | that's why we have a package manager that pulls in all the dependencies | 23:36 |
| jebba | fenn ah si | 23:36 |
| kanzure | yeah a project/package is basically the same thing | 23:36 |
| kanzure | *it is the same | 23:36 |
| QuantumG | grr | 23:36 |
| fenn | no, a project is the people and institutions that create a thing.. see the spec :P | 23:36 |
| kanzure | (semantically you could argue a project is an instance of thing-creation) | 23:37 |
| AlonzoTG | Yeah, I have about 1,100 packages installed on my gentoo system. | 23:37 |
| kanzure | stop reading my brains fenn | 23:37 |
| QuantumG | John Lewis of Mining The Sky fame was on The Space Show yesterday and Dave hasn't archived the show yet | 23:37 |
| fenn | i have timestamps on my side | 23:37 |
| jebba | fenn: ah, now i actually recall that. sheez. in front of me too. ;) | 23:37 |
| kanzure | fenn: jrayhawk's jules recommended git modules instead of entire git repos | 23:37 |
| joshcryer | I'm going to be controversial: a project file is more typically used by a GUI to interface before building, a package does not typically need a GUI. | 23:37 |
| fenn | yeah i just recently discovered modules | 23:38 |
| fenn | need to play with that more | 23:38 |
| kanzure | timschmidt has been using it for MGED | 23:38 |
| kanzure | uh | 23:38 |
| kanzure | wait, wrong namespace | 23:38 |
| fenn | mcad | 23:38 |
| kanzure | MCAD | 23:38 |
| kanzure | MGED is the brlcad CAD.. oh just fuck it all. whatever. | 23:39 |
| fenn | it's basically just an include statement | 23:39 |
| kanzure | maybe i said the wrong thing then | 23:39 |
| timschmidt | ? | 23:39 |
| kanzure | jules was suggesting a way to compress an entire git archive | 23:39 |
| kanzure | i.e. not distributing all of the diffs? | 23:40 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: are you around? | 23:40 |
| fenn | dunno if it's really the best thing to raw include it as a module at the git level.. otherwise standard interfaces never develop, every package depends on its own specific version of whatever it was when they included it | 23:40 |
| kanzure | yeah that's bad. | 23:40 |
| fenn | fetch? checkout? something like that | 23:40 |
| fenn | you could always just tgz the working directory | 23:41 |
| timschmidt | I prefer not using git as part of the package | 23:41 |
| kanzure | i do forsee problems if most projects are like reprap.git (multiple gigabytes of bullshit) | 23:41 |
| timschmidt | eventually something better than git will be developed, then we're screwed | 23:41 |
| kanzure | fenn: also are we calling it reprap.skdb and screw.skdb or what? | 23:41 |
| fenn | timschmidt: as long as it's a dvcs it should translate fine | 23:42 |
| fenn | if it's not a dvcs then i don't want it | 23:42 |
| timschmidt | kanzure: some limited progress fomenting a coup within reprap tonight | 23:42 |
| timschmidt | it will (hopefully) be a velvet revolution though. | 23:42 |
| timschmidt | doing my best to prevent all-out forking | 23:42 |
| fenn | a velveeta revolution | 23:42 |
| timschmidt | :( | 23:43 |
| kanzure | fenn: so, jrayhawk also recommended that we write a specification for the package manager | 23:43 |
| fenn | how to make velveeta: sweep up all the cheese trimmings from the factory floor, add 30% cheese solvent, heat and stir | 23:43 |
| kanzure | i made some hasty decisions in 2009/2010 to put packages in /usr/share/local/skdb/ or something | 23:43 |
| kanzure | there also needs to be a standard way to see a user's installed inventory or physical inventory | 23:43 |
| fenn | i agree that was premature | 23:43 |
| joshcryer | timschmidt, RepRap's Tunsina moment? ;P | 23:44 |
| kanzure | and in future la-la land, hooked up with rfid of their tools or whatever other crazy schemes | 23:44 |
| fenn | we dont have any inventory spec | 23:44 |
| fenn | and your lists of random bullshit didn't help | 23:44 |
| timschmidt | joshcryer: not quite. I've been chipping away at things, along with Sebastian, and others for quite some time now | 23:44 |
| kanzure | fenn: the lists weren't meant to help in that capacity ;) | 23:44 |
| joshcryer | kanzure is an OCD list maker. | 23:45 |
| joshcryer | I think. | 23:45 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: i have ~/lists under revision control :( | 23:45 |
| kanzure | 15 MB presently. | 23:45 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, heh! | 23:45 |
| fenn | words! | 23:45 |
| CryptoQuick | you have a lists directory in your home? | 23:45 |
| CryptoQuick | that's 15 MB of text files? | 23:45 |
| CryptoQuick | (under revision control, which git makes hella bloated) | 23:46 |
| fenn | git isn't bloated | 23:46 |
| timschmidt | no, if anything git compresses the fuck out of items under it's control | 23:46 |
| kanzure | meetlog.git is 100+ MB for a 2 MB file.. mostly because the diffs are crazy | 23:46 |
| kanzure | CryptoQuick: but yes | 23:46 |
| CryptoQuick | insanity | 23:46 |
| kanzure | here's my ~/index.txt file http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/home-index.txt | 23:46 |
| CryptoQuick | I made a list the other day, on google calendar | 23:47 |
| CryptoQuick | it says: | 23:47 |
| CryptoQuick | - proposal | 23:47 |
| CryptoQuick | - biz cards | 23:47 |
| CryptoQuick | - appeal fafsa | 23:47 |
| fenn | many of those directory names look familiar | 23:48 |
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| joshcryer | Your fafsa wasn't approved? | 23:48 |
| joshcryer | :( | 23:48 |
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| CryptoQuick | joshcryer: yeah, nah | 23:48 |
| CryptoQuick | I'm still gonna go, just... shit might get effed | 23:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: silence or else i'll have to kill you | 23:48 |
| fenn | you'll get your come-uppance, youngun! | 23:49 |
| CryptoQuick | out of the four semesters I've been going to MSCD, I've never completed 100% of my classes for any semester | 23:49 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, financials should be in /usr/lib/brain dude | 23:49 |
| fenn | just wait until that world eating AI you're building convinces you to let it out of its box | 23:49 |
| kanzure | you mean list eating | 23:49 |
| fenn | same thing, from its perspective | 23:49 |
| joshcryer | fenn, it won't know it's in a box. | 23:49 |
| kanzure | so how would you do an inventory specification? | 23:50 |
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| kanzure | i think a package manager should be somewhat aware of what you already have laying around | 23:50 |
| kanzure | supporting (in the future) rfid-tagged libraries of tools is also important, or other schemes | 23:50 |
| fenn | uh, i think i actually did write an inventory spec, but it's perhaps too heavy for anybody to actually fill out completely | 23:50 |
| joshcryer | Just copy ipkg and suck in dependencies when needed! | 23:50 |
| QuantumG | like your mamma's clothes | 23:50 |
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| kanzure | if we need to get a good approximation of all existing tools, | 23:51 |
| kanzure | we can have a 'hackerspace census' and have people just type in tool names | 23:51 |
| kanzure | and material quantities/names | 23:51 |
| JayDugger | Have fun eliminating duplicates. | 23:51 |
| kanzure | then use this as fodder for unit testing | 23:51 |
| fenn | hm this is weird, why isn't it working? http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/data/ | 23:51 |
| joshcryer | skdb-pkg list | 23:51 |
| joshcryer | there | 23:51 |
| kanzure | fenn: it's not there? http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/tree/data/ | 23:51 |
| fenn | oh, i clicked on 'data' from http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/inventory | 23:51 |
| fenn | is data some keyword for cgit? | 23:52 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: yeah but people don't call their tools by their skdb package names | 23:52 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: fenn found a cgit bug | 23:52 |
| fenn | it does that with every subdirectory apparently | 23:52 |
| kanzure | not in http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/ | 23:52 |
| joshcryer | kanzure, this is where we employ fascism. | 23:53 |
| kanzure | although it does fuck up the directory names (like BOM) when you click the links | 23:53 |
| kanzure | joshcryer: yes but nobody *knows* the skdb package names because they don't exist yet | 23:53 |
| kanzure | plus, inventory tracking (like via rfid) *is* going to become more popular | 23:53 |
| kanzure | so having some support from that, at least conceptually, is important | 23:53 |
| fenn | i still think this is an ok amount of info to track http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/inventory/data/schema.original | 23:54 |
| kanzure | the point is to have the package manager know what's available | 23:54 |
| timschmidt | kanzure: you can mine thingiverse for tool names | 23:54 |
| timschmidt | http://www.thingiverse.com/tools | 23:54 |
| kanzure | timschmidt: yeah but consider "Sears Bowsaw" versus "bowsaw" | 23:54 |
| timschmidt | well... a quick read-through can eliminate dupes | 23:55 |
| timschmidt | getting the initial list with (not too many) dupes is the hard part | 23:55 |
| kanzure | it'd be like asking a debian user to type their debian package names :P | 23:55 |
| kanzure | i suppose | 23:55 |
| fenn | i dislike thingiverse's ontology | 23:55 |
| fenn | "automated tools" vs "power tools" vs "electrical tools" | 23:55 |
| timschmidt | add it to the list of things we don't like about thingiverse ;) | 23:56 |
| timschmidt | I would just dump all tools into one category | 23:56 |
| kanzure | fenn: maybe we should just say "these are the 200 basic packages that need to exist, and these are what their names will be" | 23:56 |
| kanzure | and then make very searchable descriptions so users can eventually select the "right" package from a list when the package manager looks at their ~/inventory.csv file and pukes with their awful ~~MY-LOVELY--BANDSAW~~ entries | 23:57 |
| fenn | sure | 23:57 |
| fenn | Did you mean... | 23:57 |
| kanzure | so, | 23:58 |
| kanzure | 1) where should packages be stored on the user's system? | 23:58 |
| fenn | red herring | 23:59 |
| fenn | who fucking cares | 23:59 |
| kanzure | 2) where should the package manager store a "sanitized" inventory data? | 23:59 |
| kanzure | fenn: someone who is writing a package manager would need to know these things | 23:59 |
| kanzure | plus, it's good to have the same filesystem structure for debugging purposes | 23:59 |
| kanzure | or at least the same set of environmental variables, etc. | 23:59 |
| fenn | specified in conf file, with a list of search paths defined in the spec | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Sat Jan 15 00:00:01 2011 | ||
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