| --- Log opened Fri Feb 11 00:00:10 2011 | ||
| kanzure | reprap gen3 protocol v1 https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcWKwJ2SAxDzZGd6amZyY2NfMmdtODRnZ2Ri&hl=en | 00:09 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | why is this in a google docs file? | 00:09 |
| kanzure | aw crap my russians don't understand open source software development | 00:28 |
| kanzure | "From my previous experience I figured an empirical rule: the more you talk to people (on business), the more you and they accomplish. It also called team-building. That's what we need right now." | 00:28 |
| kanzure | "I know very little about open-source project management, but in general case the right step now would be to talk to everyone who is willing to contribute (but evidently are not doing it right now) - review what should be accomplished in near future, break the work down into chunks to be handled by 1 person" | 00:28 |
| kanzure | "It's hard to do something alone, or when feeling alone." | 00:28 |
| kanzure | either you build a patch or you don't.. if i build it for you what's the point | 00:29 |
| kanzure | (this is about nanoengineer) | 00:35 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 06:28 |
| JayDugger | fenn, kanzure, good work on SKDB. | 06:28 |
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| Director_X | anybody here a member of humanity plus las vegas? | 07:25 |
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| kanzure | http://transitlab.org/2010/citizen-science-why-it-matters | 08:42 |
| kanzure | "why it matters: because you get to explain snailbait" | 08:43 |
| kanzure | what? | 08:43 |
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| kanzure | crazy mouse for 3d navigation http://axsotic.com/ | 09:16 |
| JayDugger | I'll stick to my SpaceNavigator (http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacenavigator.html, Flash-heavy) | 09:18 |
| strages | you guys see this http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/researchers-develop-thinking-cap-aids-in-creative-development/story-fn5fsgyc-1226002236002 | 09:20 |
| JayDugger | Saw it, but I don't know if I'd use it. | 09:21 |
| kanzure | how is this different from tdcs or rtms? | 09:21 |
| kanzure | looks like tdcs to me http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016655 | 09:21 |
| strages | right, it is | 09:22 |
| strages | in a wearable device form | 09:22 |
| Lukas_ | Interesting | 09:30 |
| Lukas_ | Good afternoon gentlemen | 09:30 |
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| strages | got disconnected, what did I miss? | 09:40 |
| kanzure | nothing | 09:40 |
| kanzure | btw there's logs if you ever get bored http://gnusha.org/logs/ | 09:41 |
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| strages | k, thanks | 10:12 |
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| archels | alright, this is the third e-mail from KurzweilAI about Transcendent Man in a couple of hours. | 11:31 |
| kanzure | "marketing" | 11:34 |
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| archels | http://www.herbarium.lsu.edu/ | 12:39 |
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| kanzure | i heart the internet | 13:11 |
| kanzure | http://o-bio.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4049&p=21014#p21014 | 13:11 |
| kanzure | "hi, i'm the author of that paper on dna synthesis, is there anything i can do for you bryan" | 13:12 |
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| thesnark | kanzure somebody casually mentioned skdb to me irl and my jaw dropped | 13:43 |
| thesnark | kanzure pretty sure your visibility is going way up | 13:43 |
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| Technicus | Hello, has there been any discussion here about: [ http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/ ]? | 15:02 |
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| Director_X | Technicus, are you with the zeitgeist people? | 15:16 |
| Technicus | Director_X: No, I just watched the video, and there was discussion about the Peprap project. | 15:17 |
| Technicus | I am very interested in the Reprap. | 15:18 |
| Technicus | . . . and I oftem think about how in the "Star Trek" reality there is no currency. I often wonder how it could be achieved. | 15:19 |
| Director_X | did you look through the venus project stuff? | 15:19 |
| Technicus | Exchanging and sharing in the value of life based on the merrits of contribution rather than greed. | 15:20 |
| Technicus | Director_X: No, what is that? | 15:20 |
| Technicus | Please educate me. | 15:20 |
| Technicus | I don't want to be ignorant, and I want to participate in a project of substantial value. | 15:20 |
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| Director_X | its the zeitgeist utopia city project-thing....trying to find a link | 15:22 |
| Director_X | http://www.thevenusproject.com/ | 15:23 |
| Director_X | these guys are kind of like the communist current of transhumanism | 15:23 |
| Director_X | I'll take some lip for saying that, I'm sure | 15:24 |
| Director_X | I'm sure there are some zeitgeist guys on here that could tell you more about it. I don't like it myself. | 15:26 |
| Director_X | all I know is they are very aggressive about recruiting in the h+ community right now. | 15:27 |
| kanzure | oh please.. | 15:29 |
| kanzure | marcin jakubowski kicks the crap out of vensu project | 15:29 |
| kanzure | venus project | 15:29 |
| Director_X | ^WHO? | 15:31 |
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| Technicus | kanzure: What is: [ marcin jakubowski ]? | 15:33 |
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| kanzure | i don't know, where did you copy/paste that from? | 15:36 |
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| Technicus | Thank you for the assignment. | 15:41 |
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| kanzure | huh? | 15:41 |
| kanzure | what's up with that one | 15:41 |
| Director_X | so wtf was with this marcin guy? | 15:46 |
| kanzure | venus project is just a marketing stunt as far as i can tell | 15:47 |
| kanzure | marcin is building the 'global village construction set' on factor e farm | 15:47 |
| kanzure | http://openfarmtech.org/ | 15:48 |
| Director_X | interesting | 15:53 |
| Director_X | no hidden commie agenda? | 15:53 |
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| Lukas_ | Good evening | 16:46 |
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| Lukas_ | Hello Director X | 16:49 |
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| Director_X | hey Lukas | 16:50 |
| Lukas_ | What's going on? | 16:51 |
| Director_X | been trying to do this haptic project | 16:51 |
| Lukas_ | Have you picked a location yet? | 16:53 |
| jebba | cool. i saw haptic pads in tokyo science museum. very cool stuff. | 16:54 |
| Director_X | lukas: I'm just doing the prototype thing first. I haven't commited to a location | 16:55 |
| jebba | ah. I think you're talking about something totally different. ;) | 16:56 |
| Director_X | a little different | 16:57 |
| Lukas_ | <Kanzure>: Marcin Jakubowski's project actually seems practical. I had no idea about Open Source Ecology | 16:59 |
| Director_X | jebba: you are talking about the hand control haptic pads, right? | 16:59 |
| Lukas_ | Is there any similar projects with applications to space? | 16:59 |
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| kanzure | Lukas_: marcin's videos are up on my youtube account | 17:09 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpGyDjvTqaQ | 17:09 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2mzNhQG0ug | 17:09 |
| Lukas_ | excellent, thanks | 17:10 |
| kanzure | http://openfarmtech.org/wiki/CEB_and_Other_Videos | 17:10 |
| jebba | director_x (who is gone...) nope, talking about pads that are electronic that you touch and they have different feels depending upon the program. bbiab | 17:14 |
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| kanzure | economic impact of the printing press in europe http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/6092 | 17:40 |
| kanzure | sadly "Printing was from the outset a for-profit enterprise." | 17:40 |
| kanzure | "The movable type printing press was developed by Johannes Gutenberg and his business partners in Mainz, Germany around 1450 (as you know) ... The key innovation in printing – the precise combination of metal alloys and the process used to cast the metal type – were trade secrets. The underlying knowledge remained quasi-proprietary for almost a century. The first known “blueprint” manual on the production of movable type was only printed in | 17:41 |
| kanzure | 1540." | 17:46 |
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| kanzure | "make fake phone call" button on a cell phone http://craphound.com/images/e7KOe.jpg | 18:53 |
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| kanzure | "Those sound like great projects, but are they the highest priority & most appropriate for the mission and goals of H+?" | 19:17 |
| kanzure | "well, as director of r&d for humanity+, yes, patri, they are" | 19:18 |
| kanzure | "Personally I think funding for a fulltime executive director would be the best H+ project." | 19:18 |
| kanzure | aw crap | 19:18 |
| kanzure | that's going to be such a huge drain of money | 19:24 |
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| Lukas_ | I hope that was a joke | 19:28 |
| fenn | it is a joke, just not an intentional one | 19:31 |
| kanzure | i sent that to patri (since he offered to "shop the proposals around") | 19:33 |
| kanzure | and to ben | 19:33 |
| kanzure | ben just wrote a reply suggesting "you should start a $100k open source hardware fund!" | 19:33 |
| kanzure | to be fair i guess the total cost of all the projects i listed was $1,700,000 | 19:33 |
| kanzure | if anyone cares: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html | 19:36 |
| kanzure | a lot of the dollar amounts are random | 19:36 |
| kanzure | a few thousand here, a few thousand there.. | 19:36 |
| kanzure | "Funding is needed to make bring" oops | 19:36 |
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| kanzure | fenn: what do you think about goertzel's suggestion that i do a 'oshw fund'? | 19:57 |
| kanzure | dunno if it makes heaps of sense.. | 19:58 |
| kanzure | maybe i should call it a 'transhuman tech fund' haw haw | 19:58 |
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| fenn | i thought we've been talking about it for years | 20:16 |
| fenn | the bounty thing | 20:17 |
| kanzure | that's the execution side, what about the fundraising side | 20:17 |
| fenn | also you can do split bounties, 50% before completion or something | 20:17 |
| fenn | darpa/sbir often does things in a progressive fashion.. start off with small theoretical or proof of concept projects, proceed to higher levels of technology readiness and eventually commercialization | 20:19 |
| fenn | fwiw i think most of your dollar amounts should be multiplied by 5-10x | 20:20 |
| kanzure | yeah.. nobody is going to take me seriously asking for $5k for an AFM | 20:20 |
| kanzure | half the time this small amount works because someone is already working on such a project anyway, so additional money means more parts and things happen | 20:21 |
| kanzure | but in the commercial world, anything under $100k in costs would sound crazy | 20:21 |
| fenn | you have to realize that most of research costs is educated labor | 20:21 |
| kanzure | right.. open source development is either directly funded by a company (or whatever) or the developer is subsidizing his time | 20:22 |
| kanzure | s/time/time-cost/ | 20:22 |
| fenn | typical researcher salary is 50-100k$/yr so the formula goes "how long will this take, how many people do we need" and multiply away | 20:22 |
| fenn | but i don't think that's the sort of thing we are dealing with here | 20:23 |
| kanzure | if we did that we'd end up with 20 jonathan clines asking for $150k/year salaries | 20:23 |
| fenn | that's why i like the bounty idea, it makes people forget about comparison with other "real jobs" and makes them concentrate on how to solve the fucking problem | 20:24 |
| kanzure | goertzel rewrote the bounty idea or something so now the phrase has less meaning to me | 20:24 |
| kanzure | uh could you re-define it | 20:24 |
| fenn | wha? | 20:25 |
| fenn | okay | 20:25 |
| kanzure | "rewrote" i mean in an email he re-expressed the idea but it was all wrong and now i'm confused | 20:25 |
| kanzure | he made it sound like a consulting project (which might work) | 20:25 |
| fenn | say you have $100k to fund open hardware development, you could blow it all on one researcher's salary for a year, or you could divide it up into tasks with a given dollar amount for accomplishing each task | 20:25 |
| kanzure | but a 'bounty' is traditionally 'you bring me this finished product, you get the money' | 20:26 |
| fenn | right, and most of the developers we are targeting don't have funds to pay for their equipment or materials | 20:26 |
| fenn | so you can establish their trustworthiness/competence by a series of increasingly difficult milestones | 20:27 |
| kanzure | oh right, i remember, doubling the amount i throw at them | 20:27 |
| fenn | "bottom-rung" bounties should come up often enough, documentation projects or whatever | 20:27 |
| kanzure | sure | 20:27 |
| kanzure | (documentation is hard) | 20:27 |
| kanzure | so is it hiring contractors for these teensy milestones? | 20:28 |
| kanzure | or is it "bring it and the money is yours" | 20:28 |
| fenn | uh, the goal is to get shit done, but we can't fund everybody to do everything | 20:28 |
| fenn | so i guess this is a depth first search | 20:29 |
| fenn | starting at the leaf node :P | 20:29 |
| fenn | anyone should be able to submit a claim for a bounty, it's just that we'll be funding some of them | 20:30 |
| kanzure | i think there needs to be a specific definition of 'bounty' | 20:30 |
| kanzure | "payment or reward (especially from a government) for acts such as catching criminals or killing predatory animals or enlisting in the military" | 20:31 |
| fenn | bounty is a well defined goal with a dollar amount provided for accomplishing it | 20:31 |
| kanzure | so someone accomplishes it, tells me, and i give them the money assigned to the bounty? | 20:31 |
| fenn | s/provided for/provided after/ | 20:31 |
| kanzure | i see | 20:31 |
| fenn | right | 20:31 |
| kanzure | as opposed to giving money up front? | 20:31 |
| fenn | right | 20:31 |
| fenn | enlisting in the military? wtf | 20:32 |
| kanzure | so, in many cases, people in #reprap can't get a project done because they don't have the money in the first place | 20:33 |
| kanzure | otoh, i do want to avoid situations like lasersaurus or openpcr or biocurious where people get money upfront and then sit around dicking off | 20:34 |
| fenn | heh google pays up to $1337 per browser vulnerability reported | 20:37 |
| kanzure | didn't they bump that up to $3000? | 20:37 |
| kanzure | also, google summer of code is a nice model | 20:37 |
| kanzure | but it subsidizes developer time/salary and not costs (like a computer or software, which a programmer already has) | 20:38 |
| fenn | i've been hemming and hawing about graphics cards, trying to learn CUDA programming | 20:40 |
| kanzure | some of the wannabe nanoengineer people keep bringing that up | 20:40 |
| kanzure | yesterday matvey emailed me saying i need to give the russians "specific tasks" | 20:40 |
| kanzure | ... | 20:40 |
| kanzure | i mean.. it's pretty obvious at this point :P | 20:41 |
| kanzure | "get it running" | 20:41 |
| kanzure | wait, one thing at a time | 20:42 |
| kanzure | how does "you get the money at the end" do anything | 20:42 |
| kanzure | summer of code doesn't do that. | 20:42 |
| fenn | er, yes they do? | 20:43 |
| QuantumG | you get the money at the end is the perfect way to do it - if the purpose is to create an industry | 20:44 |
| QuantumG | here's how much we'll pay if you can deliver, you'll have to raise your own capital to deliver though. | 20:44 |
| QuantumG | it's like a prize, except there's only one competitor. | 20:45 |
| kanzure | fenn: they only pay out at the end? evidence please | 20:45 |
| fenn | Accepted students in good standing with their mentoring organization will receive a 500 USD stipend shortly after coding begins on May 23, 2009. | 20:46 |
| kanzure | http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2011/faqs#payments_work | 20:46 |
| fenn | Students who receive passing mid-term evaluations will receive a 2000 USD stipend shortly after the mid-term evaluation deadline, July 13, 2009. | 20:46 |
| kanzure | "# Students who receive passing mid-term evaluations will receive a 2250 USD stipend shortly after the mid-term evaluation deadline, July 15, 2011." | 20:46 |
| fenn | Students who receive passing final evaluations and who have submitted their final program evaluations will receive a 2000 USD stipend shortly after the final evaluation deadline, August 26, 2009. | 20:46 |
| kanzure | gsoc has the advantage of 1-on-1 mentorships | 20:47 |
| fenn | we could do a similar model | 20:47 |
| jebba | you can build something like an AFM for $2,500? hmm | 20:48 |
| kanzure | gonna be hard.. open source hardware mentors that i'd actually trust? i dunno | 20:48 |
| kanzure | jebba: for much less... $2500 to do the initial design work and testing and screwups | 20:48 |
| fenn | you dont have to trust them, just their judgement :P | 20:48 |
| kanzure | i imagine a finished afm might cost $100 to $250 | 20:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: where ami gonna get these mentors | 20:49 |
| fenn | i've been wondering how different the "pro" afm designs are from the amateur piezo speaker thingies | 20:49 |
| kanzure | gmail gives me ads for commercial AFMs all the time.. $20,000+ | 20:49 |
| fenn | mentors are people who seem to be able to distinguish bullshit, and have at least a modicum of vision and ambition | 20:49 |
| kanzure | fenn: have you ever done gsoc or talked with mentors | 20:50 |
| fenn | i'm sure you know many such people from mailing lists etc | 20:50 |
| kanzure | i mean, they tend to be your average open source tech gurus | 20:50 |
| kanzure | maybe.. there's not many gurus in open hardware yet | 20:50 |
| fenn | yeah i attempted to do gsoc this summer on beagleboard remember? | 20:50 |
| kanzure | software guys will probably be fine | 20:50 |
| jebba | Also, why does a company with drexler on board need a paltry $10k? | 20:51 |
| jebba | (well, comparatively) | 20:51 |
| kanzure | jebba: the company was closed | 20:51 |
| kanzure | they were blowing $1M/year | 20:51 |
| fenn | $10k is to keep it from going down the memory hole | 20:51 |
| kanzure | i'm basically the new project maintainer | 20:51 |
| kanzure | but i'm having trouble keeping up on my own with all of my other projects | 20:51 |
| kanzure | i mean, there's a *lot* of components that need to be upgraded | 20:51 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer | 20:51 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/nanoengineer-dev | 20:53 |
| jebba | ah cool, cuz I was going to say, you can't download it from their site.... | 20:53 |
| fenn | the best thing you could possibly do for ne-1 is getting it in debian | 20:54 |
| kanzure | or get it to actually run with relatively recent libraries.. | 20:54 |
| jebba | kanzure, so you're saying you'll be able to develop a AFM that is open hardware of some sort for $2.5k? | 20:55 |
| kanzure | yes | 20:55 |
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| kanzure | more specifically i'd be using timschmidt | 20:55 |
| kanzure | or fenn (if he wants) but i don't think fenn has his tools at the moment | 20:55 |
| kanzure | timschmidt: ping | 20:55 |
| jebba | isnt he a bit busy? ;) | 20:57 |
| kanzure | depends on the timeline i guess | 20:57 |
| kanzure | fenn: so, i like the gsoc model in general | 20:58 |
| jebba | How will heeks be improved? who is working on it? who will? | 20:58 |
| jebba | and why not openscad or whatever else is out there? | 20:59 |
| kanzure | jebba: i'd ask dan heeks specifically, there's a long todo list of things that need to get done | 20:59 |
| kanzure | yeah, sure, that'd be great too | 20:59 |
| kanzure | just as some brief backgruond.. | 20:59 |
| kanzure | this list was sent to some billionaire | 20:59 |
| kanzure | so i was just writing down a broad selection of projects that need support | 20:59 |
| kanzure | openscad would be a good choice | 21:00 |
| kanzure | fenn: so with a gsoc-like model, how does that effect bounties or doubling of project payouts? | 21:08 |
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| kanzure | why does this post exist http://blog.automenta.com/2011/02/engineerables-and-generalizing-skdb.html | 21:27 |
| jebba | ok. i'll take the AFM, plz. Where do I sign up? (i mean i dont need the AFM itself, the just open/libre plans) | 21:43 |
| kanzure | wait you mean you have money for this | 21:46 |
| jebba | ya, if you can make something like that for $2.5k, sign me up. Oh, but dont bug tim about it cuz he's busy ;) | 21:48 |
| fenn | hey is there some sort of bounty middleman service, and if it doesn't exist why not | 21:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: do you feel up for AFM madness :P | 21:50 |
| fenn | i don't know anything about AFM | 21:50 |
| fenn | i mean i've read a few webpages but that's it | 21:50 |
| kanzure | yes you do.. we've been over the design of this a few times now | 21:51 |
| kanzure | well, true | 21:51 |
| kanzure | photodiode, reflective material, expensive component is the set of sharp tips | 21:51 |
| kanzure | plus figuring out some software for interpreting the signals | 21:51 |
| kanzure | "signal processing" *handwaving* | 21:52 |
| fenn | heh | 21:52 |
| fenn | i guess i could read over your linkdumps | 21:52 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20080106164837/http://www.biophysik.physik.uni-muenchen.de/PlasticAFM// | 21:53 |
| jebba | oh boy, that's quite the build setup for nanoengineer, heh. | 21:54 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/AFM/ | 21:54 |
| kanzure | jebba: yeah.. it's crazy | 21:54 |
| kanzure | oh crud. that papers/AFM/ link is bad | 21:54 |
| kanzure | i thought it was the same as heybryan.org/papers/AFM/ where i had the stl files and links | 21:54 |
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| kanzure | http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Project.html | 21:55 |
| kanzure | crud geocities is dead | 21:55 |
| fenn | so there seem to be a number of AFM projects already; why are they inadequate? | 21:56 |
| kanzure | it's packaging, presentation, testing, documentation | 21:56 |
| fenn | jurgen muller's looks pretty well documented at a first glance | 21:56 |
| kanzure | http://www.nanotech-now.com/James-Logajan/stm.htm | 21:57 |
| kanzure | well, we need skdb packages | 21:57 |
| kanzure | jürgen müller's http://www.e-basteln.de/ | 21:57 |
| fenn | possibly over-documented | 21:59 |
| fenn | haha | 21:59 |
| kanzure | "# Budget – a fairly complete list of components and their costs, included for the benefit of those not easily bored by the other topics. The current total is approximately 2000 DM, or $1100 US. This includes all major STM components, HOPG graphite samples and PtIr tip wire. " | 21:59 |
| fenn | has a multi page bibliography | 21:59 |
| kanzure | collaboration seems like an ok idea if he's up for it | 21:59 |
| kanzure | heh $1100 so my $2500 estimate was ok :D | 22:00 |
| fenn | a significant portion of that is machined hunks of brass and "fine thread screws" | 22:00 |
| kanzure | which.. isn't actually mandatory | 22:01 |
| fenn | yeah, and the dsp too | 22:01 |
| kanzure | jebba: there was one that was "mostly" 3D printed | 22:01 |
| jebba | cool | 22:01 |
| kanzure | so having a mostly-reprapped AFM would be really neat. | 22:01 |
| jebba | i dont get this part of skdb: a computer can write instructions specific to an end-user's inventory | 22:01 |
| fenn | supposedly the brass helped with noise isolation | 22:01 |
| kanzure | jebba: abstractly.. consider situations where there are two ways to do things, and you have only tools for doing it the first way ;) | 22:02 |
| jebba | you mean just keeping count? | 22:02 |
| jebba | ah ok ya | 22:02 |
| fenn | jebba: its like printing on a laser printer, you don't have to manually set up the print job and do typesetting and postscript translation etc etc | 22:02 |
| kanzure | oh god please no | 22:02 |
| kanzure | i've wasted way too much time futzing with laser cutter settings | 22:02 |
| kanzure | i should just calibrate once and be done with it (until i purposefuly fuck it up) | 22:02 |
| fenn | oh i read the question wrong, sorry | 22:03 |
| jebba | it seems you should check out the manufacturing stuff out there already for this that skdb is doing. Or put another way, why not tie this into something like openerp that has tons of those issues built into it (afaict). | 22:03 |
| fenn | i'm allergic to anything "enterprise" | 22:03 |
| kanzure | because skdb isn't CRM | 22:03 |
| jebba | crm is just one small part. | 22:03 |
| jebba | just dont load the crm module. | 22:04 |
| jebba | the inventory/BOM/manufacturing/master production schedule etc.... is the parts to use (in python!) | 22:04 |
| kanzure | http://www.openerp.com/products/manufacturing | 22:04 |
| kanzure | just looking at these screens.. it's really not what skdb is | 22:04 |
| kanzure | none of these enterprise systems really implement things like package management.. | 22:04 |
| jebba | that's one screen of an order... | 22:05 |
| fenn | yeah this is for running a manufacturing business with slaves | 22:05 |
| jebba | they do with things like BoM though. | 22:05 |
| kanzure | BoM is just a list and is easy :) | 22:05 |
| fenn | no and no | 22:05 |
| kanzure | "Compute schedulers. The scheduler is the heart of the ERP system in terms of planning. It organises manufacturing orders based on priorities (sub-products manufacturing, dates required, etc), launches purchase orders for missing components and assigns products in stock." | 22:05 |
| kanzure | "The procurement order will schedule a proposal for automatic procurement for the product which needs replenishment. This procurement will start a task, either a purchase order form for the supplier, or a production order depending on the product's configuration." | 22:06 |
| fenn | if you have a person to sit there and figure out how to *actually* acquire every item on the list, then sure it's "easy" | 22:06 |
| fenn | but to have an unattended computer do it is much harder | 22:06 |
| kanzure | fenn: realize where jebba is coming from.. he's starting up his aleph corp | 22:06 |
| fenn | i have no idea what that means | 22:06 |
| kanzure | he's building reprap kits | 22:06 |
| fenn | i've seen jebba buying a bunch of 3d printers for unknown reasons | 22:07 |
| jebba | fenn, well i looked at all the floss i could find for managing a project such as building a number of repraps (or similar) and openerp came out far on top. | 22:07 |
| kanzure | jebba: we're not against "linux for a fablab" of course | 22:07 |
| jebba | fenn, i have 3 engineers (locally) working for me on repraps now (looking for more). | 22:07 |
| kanzure | but erp is basically "take traditional papers and forms, and make them ELECTRONIC!" | 22:07 |
| jebba | kanzure, ya, most of it is a bunch of horrible java shit. | 22:08 |
| jebba | just download the code and ignore the marketing for a moment :P | 22:08 |
| kanzure | i'm knee deep in java this month (android development BS) | 22:08 |
| fenn | also why is everything in capital letters | 22:09 |
| kanzure | jebba: what are you suggesting openerp be used for in skdb? | 22:09 |
| * fenn is cranky today | 22:10 | |
| jebba | well, i am trying to figure out what skdb would exactly do, if not do EDI (parts ordering) and such. I get the definition of the file format, but then what do you feed it to, if not something like openerp? | 22:10 |
| jebba | and I think it even has logic built in to make decisions like "should i build a screw or buy one?" | 22:11 |
| jebba | (ERP can in general, not 100% about openerp) | 22:11 |
| kanzure | i'm sure each shop has their own custom setup for how they buy things and order parts | 22:13 |
| kanzure | so sure.. if someone is using openerp, spitting out data to that system is certainly possible.. | 22:13 |
| kanzure | i like to think of a machine shop as a giant UNIX system only asking for human help whenever it can't do something computationally (like physical labor- we don't quite yet have the automatic-fab-in-a-box deployment...) | 22:14 |
| jebba | actually, AFAICT EDI is somewhat of a standard. For instance fastenal says it will work with their system. | 22:14 |
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| kanzure | you mean the b2b language, EDI? | 22:15 |
| jebba | yes, afaict (havent implemented it) with openerp+edi+fastenal=auto parts ordering. As one example. | 22:15 |
| kanzure | yeah.. nobody exposes EDI over the web | 22:15 |
| kanzure | basically the surest way is to just write scrapers on top of sparkfun/digikey/octopart/amazon api/whatever | 22:15 |
| kanzure | fastenal does eh?? | 22:16 |
| kanzure | hrm | 22:16 |
| kanzure | http://www.fastenal.com/web/aboutUs.ex?action=ECommerce | 22:16 |
| kanzure | ebxml lol | 22:16 |
| jebba | i'm not certain it is over the web, i just presumed that. But i did ask them specifically about it and they said it would work fine. | 22:16 |
| jebba | They have a number of ways to do it (they claim) | 22:16 |
| fenn | i think EDI is just another way of obscuring your lack of API | 22:17 |
| kanzure | edi is old stuff, fenn | 22:18 |
| jebba | either way, it is at least *ONE* way. | 22:18 |
| jebba | perhaps there are more | 22:18 |
| kanzure | jebba: i'm not too concerned about auto-ordering-of-parts.. again, web scrapers can implement this very easily, or amazon api, etc. | 22:18 |
| fenn | i think it's a huge problem but not one that skdb can solve | 22:18 |
| jebba | ok. well, that was just one part. | 22:19 |
| jebba | I guess i just dont see what you do once you have foo.skdb. What do you feed it to? | 22:19 |
| fenn | existing solutions to this problem generally leverage some network effects to pressure businesses into sending data to the service provider in the format they want to receive | 22:19 |
| kanzure | jebba: that depends on your inventory and what's on /dev | 22:20 |
| fenn | jebba: the idea is foo.skdb already contains all the necessary settings for your foo printer | 22:20 |
| jebba | then you need all hardware to conform to .skdb ? hmm | 22:21 |
| kanzure | /dev/cnc would be scheduled by some crond printer spool, etc. etc. | 22:21 |
| kanzure | nah, you can generally convert stl to gcode for instance | 22:21 |
| fenn | there's drivers for each control system | 22:21 |
| kanzure | yeah. | 22:21 |
| fenn | emc2 could be considered a driver | 22:21 |
| fenn | gcode + sneakernet could be another | 22:21 |
| jebba | so you have skdb-daemon sitting there, gets my_screw.skdb, says "that's for repsnapper" and sends it over there? something like that? | 22:21 |
| kanzure | there's also manual labor parts of most tasks at this point.. i mean, it would be nice if everything could be 100% robotic, but a person does generally have to ferry parts from one machine to the next | 22:21 |
| fenn | yes | 22:22 |
| kanzure | jebba: yep. but in most cases it will probably be more complicated than that | 22:22 |
| jebba | ok. | 22:22 |
| jebba | i'll think about that model for awhile :) | 22:22 |
| fenn | we were talking about describing conversion programs in terms of what mime types they accepted as input and output/ | 22:22 |
| kanzure | 'conversion programs'? wait was this something i was talking about | 22:23 |
| fenn | i'm not convinced that just mime type has enough descriptive power though | 22:23 |
| fenn | yeah you wanted to do it for every program ever, based on getopt description | 22:23 |
| fenn | i forget the name of the library, it wasn't commonly used | 22:23 |
| kanzure | impressive memory sir.. | 22:23 |
| kanzure | gengetopt | 22:24 |
| kanzure | in case you care. | 22:24 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shell.html | 22:24 |
| * fenn was googling around for 'ggetopt' - close | 22:24 | |
| kanzure | anyway, there's no compiler yet for splitting up an skdb package to multiple devices or rendering human instructions | 22:25 |
| kanzure | or choosing to order some parts and not others etc. | 22:25 |
| kanzure | i do think that our current "package manager" in skdb.git is rather pathetic | 22:25 |
| fenn | "look, she does nothing" | 22:25 |
| kanzure | especially since we claim 1) dpkg/apt-get is not enough but 2) we currently even lack that much functionality.. | 22:26 |
| kanzure | jebba: have you seen the sudo make me a sandwich robot? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQOkMz3kiS0 | 22:27 |
| * jebba looks | 22:27 | |
| jebba | btw, these look to be the dependencies to build nanoengineer under fedora 14: | 22:28 |
| jebba | qt-devel python-numarray python-numeric numpy PyOpenGL | 22:28 |
| jebba | (or at least to get ./configure happy) | 22:28 |
| kanzure | sort of.. the qt library that nanoengineer uses is super old | 22:28 |
| kanzure | jebba: if you want notes on running/installing nanoengineer, see: | 22:28 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/compile_nanoengineer | 22:28 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/NE1InstallScriptFragment | 22:28 |
| fenn | updating nanoengineer to a modern qt would be a good bounty | 22:29 |
| kanzure | i haven't figured out the root of the problem actually | 22:30 |
| kanzure | if i run it under python2.5, it works with a more modern qt version | 22:30 |
| jebba | add hdf5-devel to that list | 22:30 |
| jebba | ... Pyrex | 22:31 |
| kanzure | yeah.. it's on the list | 22:31 |
| kanzure | http://www.nanoengineer-1.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=NE1_Build_Requirements | 22:31 |
| kanzure | http://www.nanoengineer-1.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=NE1_Build_and_Install | 22:31 |
| kanzure | oops, only the second one | 22:32 |
| kanzure | ack | 22:32 |
| kanzure | i meant this: | 22:32 |
| kanzure | http://www.nanoengineer-1.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Setting_up_an_NE1_Development_Environment_on_Linux | 22:32 |
| jebba | ya. Those are all the debian names, these are the fedora ones | 22:32 |
| kanzure | ok | 22:32 |
| kanzure | if you want to see nanoengineer in action, check out the machine gallery: | 22:33 |
| kanzure | http://nanoengineer-1.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=50 | 22:33 |
| kanzure | or technologiclee's tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqfXzTrwI3c&feature=related | 22:34 |
| fenn | hahaha "hey is it illegal to offer my customers a 10% discount, if you cancel your order with makerbot?" | 22:34 |
| jebba | the main.py in cad/src runs fine under F14 (where fine=it launches and looks ok at least). The rest didnt compile though, barfing. | 22:34 |
| kanzure | jebba: did you clone from diyhpl.us? | 22:34 |
| jebba | yes | 22:35 |
| jebba | kanzure, i'm getting the same RCSID_BENDS error that fitzim got here: http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-12-22.log But his pastebin fix is gone :( | 22:37 |
| kanzure | hmm that's weird. we committed his patches | 22:40 |
| kanzure | jebba: line 1051 and 1052 should be commented out in sim/src/newtables.c | 22:41 |
| jebba | ok | 22:41 |
| kanzure | huh i forgot to commit that change | 22:42 |
| kanzure | well.. probably because it's a stupid fix that doesn't actually solve the real problem | 22:42 |
| -!- keen_101 [~andrew@76.76.90.91] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:51 | |
| kanzure | hi keen_101 | 23:04 |
| kanzure | how goes your diybio arduino shield thingy | 23:05 |
| keen_101 | it's in stage "1" | 23:22 |
| keen_101 | LOL | 23:22 |
| keen_101 | kanzure, you think it's a good idea or not? | 23:23 |
| kanzure | i'm half asleep and don't know what the idea is | 23:23 |
| kanzure | some sort of logging shield? | 23:23 |
| keen_101 | yeah, just with an accurate RTC clock | 23:24 |
| -!- Technicus [~Technicus@71-89-22-80.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is.] | 23:24 | |
| keen_101 | i don't know, maybe an accurate RTC clock isn't really needed. | 23:25 |
| kanzure | no it's a good idea i think | 23:26 |
| kanzure | plus we need more projects out in diybio like this | 23:26 |
| keen_101 | yeah. If nothing else, it stimulated development | 23:27 |
| keen_101 | *will stimulate | 23:27 |
| keen_101 | hopefully | 23:28 |
| kanzure | oh btw, | 23:41 |
| kanzure | jebba: i'll figure out arrangements soon if you're serious about injecting money into a well-packaged, open source AFM, | 23:42 |
| kanzure | but i do want to point out that if you'd like i can make this tax deductible | 23:42 |
| kanzure | via humanity+ (since it's a 501c3) | 23:42 |
| fenn | probably the only thing humanity+ is good for | 23:43 |
| kanzure | yep | 23:43 |
| kanzure | tax deductible open source hardware development is sort of a double win | 23:43 |
| kanzure | (if you have high taxes) | 23:44 |
| kanzure | good night irc | 23:48 |
| -!- strages [~strages@c-71-207-215-204.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 23:51 | |
| --- Log closed Sat Feb 12 00:00:10 2011 | ||
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