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| JayDugger | Good night, everyone. | 08:59 |
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| kanzure | ok.. now they want to give $20k for an open source dna synthesizer project | 14:12 |
| jrayhawk | Who does? | 14:23 |
| kanzure | h+ :/ | 14:24 |
| kanzure | they decided not to do the scouter because fenn was too slow or something | 14:24 |
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| jrayhawk | hplus attempting to accomplish something useful seems like something you should encourage | 15:08 |
| kanzure | yeah, i gave them a huge ilst of projects to pick from | 15:09 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html | 15:09 |
| kanzure | uh, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html | 15:09 |
| jrayhawk | though, as usual, i suspect you'll be better off working with a non-profit run by people you can actually trust | 15:09 |
| kanzure | yeah. | 15:09 |
| kanzure | i don't really have time for all this bullshit anyway | 15:09 |
| jrayhawk | a lot of this would actually be better as an open-source commercial outfit | 15:10 |
| kanzure | yes | 15:10 |
| kanzure | although, i'm not sure about upfront development | 15:11 |
| kanzure | i.e. making a platfrom from nothing seems to be something that a non-profit could do | 15:11 |
| kanzure | then a company to develop it further as a business | 15:11 |
| kanzure | startups can't really handle the risk of working on a platform that nobody actually wants until it's completed [and even then, they might not want it] | 15:11 |
| kanzure | or how did trolltech do it? | 15:14 |
| jrayhawk | trolltech is not a paragon of anything except obnoxiousness | 15:14 |
| jrayhawk | I assume you'd be working more on the scale of bdale garbee | 15:15 |
| kanzure | of who? | 15:15 |
| QuantumG | trolltech was aptly named | 15:15 |
| QuantumG | they made their money by trolling anyone who used their software and had money | 15:15 |
| jrayhawk | http://altusmetrum.org/ | 15:15 |
| QuantumG | "hey, you have money, you have to pay to use our software" "yeah, ok little fly, here's your few thousand dollars per year to go away" | 15:16 |
| kanzure | huh. | 15:16 |
| kanzure | didn't know about them, jrayhawk | 15:16 |
| kanzure | there's no.. buy button? | 15:17 |
| jrayhawk | I guess they sortof did start off as a nonprofit in the form of PSAS | 15:17 |
| kanzure | oh, that's another site wtf | 15:17 |
| jrayhawk | http://auric.gag.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=56 | 15:18 |
| kanzure | anyway, my original statement stands | 15:18 |
| kanzure | show me a company that was founded specifically to build a certain non-existing open source platform, and then did a business model on top of that later on | 15:18 |
| kanzure | (or as they were making it) | 15:19 |
| jrayhawk | I don't see bdale very often, but I can ask keithp if he any thoughts on the advantages and disadvantages of doing open source R&D under a non-profit umbrella and selling the resulting product commercially | 15:19 |
| kanzure | well, "selling the resulting product commercially" is not the only way to do a business of course | 15:19 |
| kanzure | services/contracting/other-stuff/etc. | 15:19 |
| jrayhawk | As opposed to developing it commercially as well. | 15:20 |
| kanzure | right | 15:20 |
| kanzure | if you're going to ask for startup monies to "develop a technology, then release it as open source", you'll be laughed at | 15:20 |
| kanzure | from a practical point of view, the company has no clue whether or not anyone would actually use their future platform | 15:21 |
| jrayhawk | Well, you don't really need outside funding for some of this stuff | 15:21 |
| kanzure | so investors have a right to laugh like that | 15:21 |
| kanzure | well we're talking about hardware R&D presumably | 15:21 |
| kanzure | resource requirements are somewhat higher | 15:21 |
| jrayhawk | at least, not for the numbers you're talking about. $2,500 is not hard to come by. | 15:21 |
| kanzure | ok sure | 15:21 |
| kanzure | but that's because i know hackers/developers who are already in progress on a related project | 15:22 |
| kanzure | and because they are undervalue their man-hour dollar value because they are subsidizing their time in exchange for doing open source dev on something they need/want/value, presumably | 15:22 |
| jrayhawk | I guess it'd be best to discuss development model acceptableness with them instead. | 15:23 |
| jrayhawk | meh. | 15:23 |
| kanzure | oh if you're sending signals that you don't want to talk about this, i haven't picked up on that | 15:24 |
| kanzure | say you have a giant R&D project.. like a space shuttle | 15:24 |
| kanzure | starting a company to design and build an open source space shuttle, even | 15:24 |
| QuantumG | and you're not in the US ;) | 15:24 |
| kanzure | and your name is copenhagen suborbitals | 15:24 |
| QuantumG | well, he says he's gunna put up his designs but he hasn't actually done it yet | 15:25 |
| QuantumG | (as far as I know) | 15:25 |
| kanzure | so say you need 10 people to design build and test it, for 2 years | 15:26 |
| kanzure | you ask for $4M from an investor | 15:26 |
| QuantumG | $200k per person/year .. but I guess you're gunna burn through materials and facilities too | 15:27 |
| kanzure | right | 15:27 |
| kanzure | so you face a few problems, just like any other company: | 15:27 |
| kanzure | 1) you have no sales | 15:27 |
| kanzure | 2) no revenue | 15:27 |
| kanzure | 3) in this case, there's not really much of a market for space shuttles | 15:28 |
| kanzure | so.. no market | 15:28 |
| kanzure | 4) investors can't tank the company and sell the IP to liquidate the 'assets' | 15:28 |
| QuantumG | you missed something | 15:29 |
| kanzure | so it's perhaps an even larger gamble | 15:29 |
| kanzure | than the normal gamble you make in dumping shitloads of cash on a startup | 15:29 |
| kanzure | and the payoff seems to be about average? dunno | 15:29 |
| QuantumG | one of the primary things first-round investors look for is what you're going to do that is going to attract the next round investors | 15:29 |
| kanzure | i'm just rambling now; my original point was that it would be interesting to explore charities as the originating developer of giant platforms for tech | 15:30 |
| kanzure | and that there's some benefit to having "lots of tech just laying around that any business can use to make THE FUTURE" | 15:31 |
| kanzure | and that it's more like for open source hardware/R&D to get into business in that sort of way.. | 15:31 |
| kanzure | but i've lost my train of thought and i'm grumpy because i haven't eaten. i'll bbl | 15:31 |
| AaronBarr | hey sounds like you should start a hackerspace ;) | 16:29 |
| AaronBarr | in space :O | 16:29 |
| kanzure | the membership fees should be ONE MILLION DOLLARS | 16:35 |
| kanzure | (per month) | 16:35 |
| QuantumG | have I moaned to you about my local hackerspace lately? | 16:36 |
| kanzure | cchs? | 16:37 |
| QuantumG | ? | 16:37 |
| kanzure | wrong australia | 16:37 |
| QuantumG | it's the brisbane hackerspace. | 16:37 |
| QuantumG | and while they all seem to be a bunch of nice guys, the space is just that.. space. | 16:37 |
| QuantumG | there's some benches and some manual/small tools | 16:38 |
| QuantumG | but nothing that you'd wanna pay $60/month to get access to. | 16:38 |
| AaronBarr | right | 16:41 |
| AaronBarr | well, there's more to it than that | 16:41 |
| AaronBarr | im not part of the brisbane hackerspace, i started the local hackerspace in orlando, Florida | 16:41 |
| AaronBarr | for a long while it was just that | 16:41 |
| kanzure | just to reiterate, i don't think the "membership fees" business model is smart | 16:42 |
| AaronBarr | but most of the people in florida already had most of these tools just sitting around | 16:42 |
| kanzure | it should be a business that produces something or expands | 16:42 |
| AaronBarr | kanzure: for most hackerspaces, the 'membership fees' is a way to ensure that the members matter to the organization | 16:42 |
| AaronBarr | if it's 100% membership fee supported for critical services like rent, when the members no longer feel the lab is necessary, it dissolves | 16:42 |
| AaronBarr | instead of living long past it's term and just wasting space like too many huge multinational conglomerate corporations | 16:43 |
| AaronBarr | it doesnt need to expand | 16:43 |
| AaronBarr | there just need to be more of them | 16:43 |
| AaronBarr | people need to learn to incorporate in their own countries and municipalities | 16:44 |
| AaronBarr | we're not cogs in the machinery, man | 16:44 |
| kanzure | blah blah blah | 16:44 |
| kanzure | membership fees suck, go to hell | 16:44 |
| AaronBarr | i agree that membership fees for tools is a little unreasonable | 16:44 |
| AaronBarr | but membership fees should be low | 16:45 |
| AaronBarr | like $20 | 16:45 |
| AaronBarr | whatever people are willing to pay | 16:45 |
| AaronBarr | i consider myself mostly socialist and don't see the need for money, but as long as money is going to exist, i want people to have it. so if i expect people are going to have money, i dont feel bad about asking them for $20 a month. and if they can't afford $20/mo, we help them find work to afford $20/mo | 16:46 |
| kanzure | you're just justifying your business model | 16:46 |
| AaronBarr | well you haven't entirely justified yours | 16:47 |
| AaronBarr | 'businesses should be self sufficient' i believe it was | 16:47 |
| kanzure | to avoid rent seeking? | 16:47 |
| AaronBarr | it takes a lot to get people to feel like something is theirs. people are more likely to throw away something worth a lot of money if they got it for free. if they pay for it, at least they care that much. we want people to feel like the lab is actually theirs, just shared amongst other people | 16:48 |
| AaronBarr | so, giving it away feels wrong | 16:49 |
| AaronBarr | plus you're subservient to whoever is actually paying your rent | 16:49 |
| AaronBarr | university, some company, stockholders, clients | 16:49 |
| kanzure | are you tryign to explain why i should like your model | 16:49 |
| AaronBarr | yep | 16:49 |
| kanzure | ok. it's not working :p | 16:49 |
| kanzure | i was trying to figure out what you're trying to do | 16:49 |
| kanzure | if you want to just have an emo bath of people feeling like stuff is theirs, just go do a social program or something | 16:50 |
| kanzure | hackerspaces aren't just knitting circles- this is machines, and tools | 16:50 |
| kanzure | and building projects together instead of skyping our schematics to each other | 16:50 |
| AaronBarr | QuantumG: the Hackerspace gives you a space and a force for communal buying power. if your space hasn't used that yet to raise funds for cool machinery you wanna get, try a kickstarter :) | 16:50 |
| AaronBarr | QuantumG: I got to playing with Amazon FPS recently, and I think it'd be great to make a general equipment-buying Kickstarter for hackerspaces | 16:51 |
| QuantumG | well that's the thing.. I think the membership fees are too high for what they've already got and there's no plans to group buy anything else | 16:51 |
| AaronBarr | kanzure: I think you belittle knitting circles | 16:51 |
| kanzure | i don't want a knitting circle | 16:51 |
| kanzure | is my point | 16:51 |
| AaronBarr | QuantumG: I guess that was our problem at FAMiLab until I started the Laser Cutter kickstarter | 16:51 |
| QuantumG | yes, a knitting circle is basically what it is | 16:52 |
| kanzure | with $60/mo membership fees ;) | 16:52 |
| AaronBarr | our membership boomed after I dropped the dues to $20 and we got a laser cutter | 16:52 |
| AaronBarr | kanzure: I know that you're comparing hackerspaces to other corporate models, because that's what you're used to | 16:53 |
| QuantumG | yeah.. I try to tell my friends about the hackerspace and they're like "I don't get it" | 16:53 |
| AaronBarr | but the interesting thing was that most of us who started them hadn't ever thought about incorporating | 16:53 |
| AaronBarr | or starting any sort of company | 16:53 |
| AaronBarr | or renting business properties | 16:53 |
| AaronBarr | QuantumG: we had some people try to explain to us exactly what you're saying now, the dues are too high, you dont have anything worth coming in for, get some funding for better tools, and maybe ill come in | 16:54 |
| AaronBarr | but we all work full-time jobs and can't afford to hire anybody with like 10 members at $60/mo when rent is $700 | 16:54 |
| AaronBarr | so whos gonna get us the funding? | 16:55 |
| kanzure | "other corporate models" i think you're just not listening to me | 16:55 |
| AaronBarr | kanzure: the membership-driven nonprofit business model has existed for a very long time and has been successful for some businesses | 16:56 |
| QuantumG | the hackerspace needs to have profit making "drives" | 16:56 |
| AaronBarr | it's not profit | 16:57 |
| AaronBarr | if it's a nonprofit | 16:57 |
| AaronBarr | its just capital | 16:57 |
| QuantumG | find someone who is willing to pay for labor that the members could provide, and then ask the members to donate their time.. with all resulting funds going to the space | 16:58 |
| AaronBarr | dude | 16:58 |
| kanzure | non-profit memberships suck- i work for a few 501c3s and it's just awful | 16:58 |
| AaronBarr | if you're paying $60/mo are you going to want to do extra work for some other asshole? | 16:58 |
| AaronBarr | for free? | 16:58 |
| QuantumG | who are you referring to as the asshole? | 16:59 |
| AaronBarr | the client or the hackerspace member organizing the effort | 16:59 |
| QuantumG | which? | 16:59 |
| AaronBarr | members will see it as either | 16:59 |
| QuantumG | the client obviously isn't an asshole.. he's willing to pay for amateur work over hiring professionals | 16:59 |
| AaronBarr | a hackerspace isn't a labor force | 17:00 |
| QuantumG | there isn't any identifiable person that is running our hackerspace.. it's a committee | 17:00 |
| AaronBarr | i would upset, as a member, if the committee decided i was going to do work for some guy | 17:00 |
| AaronBarr | and when they held sign-ups i wouldnt join | 17:00 |
| AaronBarr | the work effort | 17:00 |
| QuantumG | it's no different than a knitting circle having a bake sale | 17:01 |
| AaronBarr | our members saw it differently | 17:01 |
| AaronBarr | QuantumG: alls im saying is, you're not even a member, id just suggest telling your local hackerspace flat out that dues are too high and they should get funding for some serious equipment | 17:02 |
| AaronBarr | there are good sources of funding for nonprofit organizations, especially because its all tax deductable | 17:03 |
| AaronBarr | money is kind of free for nonprofits | 17:03 |
| QuantumG | I'm not a member no.. | 17:03 |
| AaronBarr | actually, looking at their lab, i dont see what you're bitching about | 17:13 |
| AaronBarr | it's a good place to find work, honestly | 17:14 |
| QuantumG | you talking to me? | 17:14 |
| AaronBarr | and it's a little community you can contribute to | 17:14 |
| AaronBarr | yeah | 17:14 |
| AaronBarr | maybe its just not for you, an | 17:14 |
| AaronBarr | man* | 17:14 |
| AaronBarr | idunno | 17:14 |
| QuantumG | what are you looking at? | 17:14 |
| AaronBarr | http://hsbne.org/ | 17:14 |
| AaronBarr | http://www.hsbne.org/about/the-space/bigpano_inside_space.jpg?attredirects=0 | 17:14 |
| QuantumG | so you'd pay $60/month for access to benches and screwdrivers? | 17:16 |
| AaronBarr | maybe $3 | 17:17 |
| AaronBarr | $30* | 17:17 |
| AaronBarr | but we put our lab on our resumes | 17:17 |
| AaronBarr | and the last 3 job offers i got were through my lab | 17:17 |
| AaronBarr | i went from $20k/yr to $40k/yr in 2010 | 17:17 |
| QuantumG | aint nothing like that happening here.. it's not a lab, it's a club house | 17:18 |
| AaronBarr | at $50/mo, that was $600 i spent for a $20,000 raise in pay | 17:18 |
| AaronBarr | could you do it better? | 17:19 |
| QuantumG | I'm trying to understand how it could be done better... I imagine the probably is that there isn't an avalanche of hardware donations like there has been at other hackerspaces. | 17:21 |
| QuantumG | s/probably/problem/ | 17:22 |
| AaronBarr | yeah, we had a lot of equipment dropped off at our doorstep | 17:23 |
| AaronBarr | with no expectations | 17:23 |
| QuantumG | also, there's virtually no discussion in the group on how to increase membership.. or why members should even care about increasing membership | 17:23 |
| AaronBarr | how many members are there? | 17:24 |
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| QuantumG | I think there's mid 20s.. I've never seen more than 12 at a time | 17:24 |
| AaronBarr | it gets cozy around 20 | 17:27 |
| AaronBarr | you can finally pay the bills | 17:27 |
| QuantumG | yeah, they make rent and electricity ok | 17:28 |
| AaronBarr | maybe its time for another space ;) | 17:28 |
| QuantumG | I think it's time to make a purchase that will attract more members | 17:28 |
| AaronBarr | do you have any particular items in mind | 17:29 |
| QuantumG | sure :) a metal lathe or mill | 17:29 |
| AaronBarr | i see they have a drill press | 17:30 |
| AaronBarr | we have a few really great members at familab that helped us grow a reasonable set of tools | 17:30 |
| QuantumG | I've seen one guy use it once... give up, use a hand drill | 17:30 |
| QuantumG | it's in the corner, gathering dust | 17:30 |
| AaronBarr | oh | 17:30 |
| AaronBarr | drill presses are pretty cheap | 17:30 |
| AaronBarr | $70 | 17:30 |
| QuantumG | yeah I know | 17:31 |
| AaronBarr | we have a rule at familab that people can bring in their tools | 17:31 |
| AaronBarr | we accept no responsibility if they break | 17:31 |
| QuantumG | that's all people do at this hackerspace | 17:31 |
| AaronBarr | but our membership is respectable enough that they stay in working order | 17:31 |
| AaronBarr | bring in their own tools? | 17:31 |
| QuantumG | they bring in their tools, do their own job, and take them away again | 17:31 |
| AaronBarr | oh | 17:31 |
| QuantumG | it's just a space to them. | 17:31 |
| AaronBarr | well, yeah | 17:32 |
| AaronBarr | at one level it's just a space | 17:32 |
| AaronBarr | $60/mo for a workspace is actually cheap | 17:32 |
| AaronBarr | industrial space is like $500/mo minumum | 17:32 |
| QuantumG | indeed, it's cheaper than a storage shed. | 17:32 |
| AaronBarr | yeah | 17:32 |
| AaronBarr | nothing wrong with that | 17:32 |
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| AaronBarr | some people in our neck of the woods have really big machines they just need someplace to house | 17:33 |
| QuantumG | I think one or two members actually joined with the idea that they could shove their shit in a corner and no-one would mind | 17:33 |
| AaronBarr | so we let them keep them in our storage unit ;) | 17:33 |
| AaronBarr | what kind of shit | 17:33 |
| QuantumG | junk.. stuff that isn't of use to anyone.. although one guy said he's going to bring in a bunch of tools and store em there and we're all like "yes, yes do that" .. not sure if he's done it yet :) | 17:34 |
| AaronBarr | thats a great idea | 17:35 |
| AaronBarr | its hard to get used to | 17:35 |
| AaronBarr | but honestly | 17:35 |
| AaronBarr | if you arent making a lot of money off membership dues | 17:35 |
| AaronBarr | the only place new tools are gonna come from are members | 17:35 |
| AaronBarr | so we had to get used to the idea of buying $50 in tools like every week | 17:35 |
| AaronBarr | i'll tell ya | 17:36 |
| AaronBarr | my girlfriend was very glad to see some of my own stash go ;) | 17:36 |
| QuantumG | yeah, I intend to buy a $500 water pump at the middle/end of the year.. I expect I'll be saying "I will donate this to the space so long as it doesn't leave the space" | 17:37 |
| AaronBarr | what do you use a $500 water pump for?! | 17:37 |
| QuantumG | pressure testing | 17:37 |
| AaronBarr | i dont know anything about water pumps. that sounds cool. | 17:38 |
| QuantumG | it's a hand pump.. you put a garden hose on one side and the tank you wanna test on the other side | 17:38 |
| QuantumG | pump until you get the desired pressure (or until the tank bursts) | 17:39 |
| AaronBarr | neat | 17:40 |
| AaronBarr | maybe you could convince them to start a lower cost membership | 17:40 |
| QuantumG | of course, the big problem with that idea is that the hackerspace doesn't have water :) | 17:40 |
| AaronBarr | oh | 17:40 |
| AaronBarr | right | 17:40 |
| AaronBarr | yeah | 17:44 |
| AaronBarr | getting hackerspaces to move is pretty hard | 17:44 |
| AaronBarr | we need to move | 17:44 |
| AaronBarr | but man, its hard | 17:44 |
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| jrayhawk | hackerspaces should really decide beforehand whether to be based on a market economy or a gift economy and stick to it | 19:18 |
| QuantumG | how do you base 'em on a market economy? | 19:24 |
| kanzure | for aaron later; another model is the almighty incubator | 19:25 |
| * kanzure needs to work on the copy/text for hoppersdk.com | 19:29 | |
| pasky | jrayhawk: gift economy is awesome for the community, but then awesome members of the community think it would be great to do these awesome things for a living | 19:39 |
| QuantumG | sometimes I'm sure I'm not talking to another human when I talk to my cow-orkers | 19:55 |
| QuantumG | they seem to have to trouble modelling what the other person knows. | 19:56 |
| QuantumG | me: what did you see? | 19:56 |
| QuantumG | them: I saw the class had its flags. | 19:56 |
| QuantumG | me: what flags? | 19:56 |
| QuantumG | them: the flags its supposed to have. | 19:56 |
| QuantumG | me: what ARE they? | 19:57 |
| QuantumG | them: what they're supposed to be. | 19:57 |
| QuantumG | me: what do you think they're supposed to be? | 19:57 |
| QuantumG | them: 5 | 19:57 |
| QuantumG | me: they're supposed to be 6. | 19:57 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Mar 28 00:00:10 2011 | ||
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