2011-08-07.log

--- Log opened Sun Aug 07 00:00:14 2011
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delinquentmeanyone know what a "low-z" material is?05:47
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delinquentmekanzure, im about to write an email to andressen horowitz08:11
delinquentmeim trying to decide if i should make the email more imressive sounding or cut more shit out08:12
foucistdelinquentme: limit emails to 2-3 paragraphs08:16
delinquentmefoucist, yeah im keeping it to like 4 sentences08:17
delinquentmeid like it to be read in its entirety at first glance08:17
kanzurehttp://vinay.howtolivewiki.com/blog/other/the-gupta-state-failure-management-archive-a-public-resource-for-hard-times-263608:31
kanzuredelinquentme: still waiting for your email so that i can get aubrey and the others in on it08:32
delinquentmeperfect08:33
foucistde gray?08:36
delinquentmeya08:37
delinquentmehes a good dude08:37
foucistwhat's the email about08:38
kanzuredelinquentme is looking to work somewhere focusing on legit longevity/rejuvenation/life extension projects08:41
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delinquentmeOK!09:01
delinquentmeim gonna send it to his personal email ... the one you sent me09:02
kanzurewhat?09:04
kanzuredo you want me to review it first?09:04
delinquentmekaeber@u.washington.edu09:04
delinquentmesure!09:04
kanzureyeah i'm not sure you should email that guy, i'm pretty sure i can hook you up with some better projects than that09:04
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kanzureagain shoot me the email so i can get aubrey and steve and the others offering advice09:04
kanzurehi ianmathwiz709:04
delinquentmehttp://pastie.org/233493009:05
kanzurelol dude they won't read pastie or a pastebin09:05
delinquentmehahah no no i have it as a PDF09:05
delinquentmeill email you that09:05
ianmathwiz7hey09:05
delinquentmekanzure, I say hit em all09:06
delinquentmei emailed DNA nexus last night and asked if they've got any public intention to study aging09:06
delinquentmeso ill see if that gets a response09:06
delinquentmehalcyon id LOVE to work with .. so im working on their internship questions as we speak09:07
delinquentme( I think if i get my foot in the door i could handle the rest )09:07
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kanzuredelinquentme: their internship questions?09:15
kanzureyeah don't do their internship.. that's bogus09:15
kanzurego get an actual position there09:15
delinquentmekanzure, im ok with going in at the humble end09:16
delinquentmeand just carve out a niche for what im really good at09:16
kanzureyeah but nobody gets a job by applying lolz09:21
kanzuregot your email.. i'll send it up the tubes09:21
delinquentmehaha09:22
delinquentmethis is true09:22
delinquentmeso i shouldnt send it to him?09:22
kanzuredelinquentme: eh, i guess.. go ahead09:22
kanzurebtw, in your cover letter09:23
kanzureeveryone in this community knows peter thiel.. he's not a big deal :P09:23
delinquentmelol whaaat09:23
kanzureoh, also09:23
kanzureplease remove your compensation section09:23
delinquentmegod yeah id love to be able to claim that09:23
kanzurelike, absolutely remove it09:23
delinquentmeyou dont think thats a good idea?09:23
kanzureno not at all09:23
kanzureit's ok if you want to work for cheap but don't tell them taht09:24
kanzure*that09:24
kanzurejesus09:24
kanzureit shows that you're not valuable09:24
delinquentmegood enough09:24
kanzurewhich isn't the reality.09:24
delinquentmeappreciate!09:24
delinquentmeok sweet09:25
delinquentmeima shoot this over to him09:25
kanzuresend me back an updated version09:25
delinquentmesure .. i think its safe to assume hes got a doctorate?09:26
delinquentmewas going to address it to him09:26
delinquentmeyup PHd09:27
delinquentmekanzure,  you got it09:30
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fennmwahaha09:40
kanzuresup fenn09:49
kanzuredelinquentme: hah "An error occurred and your email was not sent" give it a few moments09:49
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delinquentmekanzure, thats perfect09:50
kanzuredelinquentme: a few of us in here are gonna work on a collaborative web app09:51
delinquentmerails?09:51
kanzurethesnark, ybit, maybe foucist, Nam-Ereh-Won are sorta sitting around09:51
kanzureyeah09:51
delinquentmeyes.09:51
kanzurei figure a 1-month project by 4 people could be much better than just 1 person working on a demo thing09:51
delinquentmethat is all haha "yes"09:51
kanzureanyway no particular idea has been finalized yet09:52
QuantumGdepends on the 1 person or the 4 people09:52
kanzureeither an entry to a competition, something that could make money, or something that couldn't make money but would be cool to have on a resume09:52
delinquentmecurrently my forte is going to be graphics. UI HTML and jquery09:52
kanzuredelinquentme: yeah i know you're a good fit for that :)09:52
delinquentmeim pretty good w ruby as well ... and still learning my way about the rails framework09:53
kanzurewait you're new to rails?09:53
kanzurei thought you did web dev09:53
delinquentmeoh i've done it .. as well as built apps09:53
delinquentmejust i feel its not my strongest category09:54
delinquentmebut can i work with it? absolutely09:54
kanzurek09:54
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delinquentme^^^^^09:54
kanzurehey bdesk09:54
kanzurewelcome back09:54
bdeskhi09:55
kanzuredelinquentme: so ideas are still open, if there's some itch you've been meaning to scratch.. let's hear it09:55
kanzurei'd like to keep the project under one month in duration09:55
kanzureand, i'd like it to *not* be "free work for some company that needs work done"09:56
kanzureianmathwiz7: got your email today.. don't forget ##hplusroadmap ;) when talkin' about irc09:57
kanzurebut thanks for the shout out.09:57
bdeskdidnt this used to be only one # instead of ##09:57
klafkawhat sort of collaborative web app?09:58
klafkaya09:58
bdeski tried to join earlier and i just assumed that this channel had somehow disappeared09:58
ianmathwiz7what email, you mean my discussion post?09:58
bdesklike all the transhumanists and singularitarians had decided to just give up, or that the channel had become too mainstream09:59
kanzurebdesk: yep09:59
kanzureianmathwiz7: yep09:59
ianmathwiz7transhumanists giving up? seems unlikely :P09:59
delinquentme^^^^09:59
klafkaor perhaps they'd already transcended09:59
ianmathwiz7I was mostly focusing on biohack.me on that post09:59
kanzureklafka: haven't decided yet.. could be something totally random, or something specific to our interests09:59
klafkaah09:59
bdeskit was like i was Left Behind09:59
delinquentmeyeah kanzure just let me know what you guys want to do10:00
kanzureklafka: the important thing is that everyone should want to work on it10:00
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kanzurehey gedankenstuecke10:00
gedankenstueckehi10:00
kanzurewhat's up?10:00
klafkai have been thinking of making an event promotion website, but i am kinda thinking that social networks are sort of a crowded field10:00
kanzureuh.. yeah10:00
klafkathere is no good event promotion website anymore though :(10:00
kanzureeventbrite, badgecardly?10:01
delinquentmeout for a bit :D ttyl~10:01
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gedankenstueckesunday afternoon, lazy-time with the cats and irc-idling  ;)10:01
klafkaeventbrite is ok, it's much more of a ticket selling website though really10:01
bdeskthat is what your event promotion would turn into anyway10:02
kanzureoh i assumed they sold tickets so that they could collect conference data10:02
kanzureare they just doing tickets? that's lame10:02
kanzureone idea is to brighten up http://diyhpl.us:9000/10:02
kanzureand turn that into a real "thing"10:02
klafkahey let's go host and organize that jstor torrent10:03
klafka:P10:03
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kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us:9000/random10:03
kanzurehi evolv10:03
evolvhey10:03
evolvis that where all the cool cats chat?10:03
evolvI wanna be a cool cat10:03
bdeskyes10:03
kanzurewe're only cool when you're not here10:03
evolvthat's an unfortunate truth10:03
kanzuresee /topic for logs10:04
bdeskthis is where the young unemployed idealists chat before they get old and take corporate jobs10:04
klafkalol10:04
kanzureyeah i'm kinda surprised about how many of you are unemployed10:05
klafkai'm barely employed10:06
klafkathat's almost employed10:06
klafkaer unemployed10:06
gedankenstuecke+110:06
kanzurehttp://www.labwear.com/shop/fashion-lab-coats.htm10:19
kanzurewasn't there someone who was selling patches and did mail order lab coats with your patches?10:19
kanzurei.e. the patches were things like the logos for diybio, rails, django, python, rubygems logo, atomic science, other things10:20
bdeskdoes anyone who does diybio actually wear a labcoat10:20
kanzurei saw lab coats hanging up at genspace10:21
bdeskwell maybe for the photo ops10:21
bdesksome probably not only wear lab coats, but wear lab coats all the time.10:22
bdesklike when they are cooking or grocery shopping10:23
bdeskif you guys want to do something that is feasible with current technology and might help advance science, and doesnt involve blatantly doing free work for a corporation, then how about setting up a good free legal academic journal system.10:30
kanzureyou mean like "open journal system"?10:30
kanzurehttp://pkp.sfu.ca/?q=ojs10:30
bdeskyeah i didnt know that was a thing10:30
bdeskbut i do know that people have thought about this before.10:30
bdeskkanzure: is that project good?10:31
kanzurea lab protocol sharing site might be interesting.. but it's not like a website is going to solve the real problems in that area10:31
bdeskthere was openwetware10:31
kanzurebdesk: i know a few people who have used it.. seemed to work10:31
kanzurei haven't looked at the code10:31
kanzureopenwetware is still around, but it's just a wiki10:31
bdeskfor the free journal system a single website is certainly not enough.10:32
bdeskthere are all the intricacies involving the politics among the editors, reviewers, authors, publishers, etc.10:33
kanzureyour options are:10:33
kanzure1) copy something that already works and make it slightly better10:33
kanzure2) find something that needs to be built that nobody has thought of yet10:33
bdeskare you talking about the journals or the lab protocols10:33
kanzure3) create something totally new10:33
kanzurejust in general for project chocies10:33
kanzure*choices10:33
kanzureyou aren't going to solve any significant lab problem in 1 month as far as i can tell ;)10:34
Utopiahis it listed by order of difficulty?10:34
kanzureeverything's way too broken there10:34
kanzureno10:34
bdeskI think that there's a lot of inertia behind the current journal system, but that it is possible that it could be stably replaced by a free system.  already peer reviewers do the work for free and authors submit their work without pay.10:35
kanzurea simple/cheesy project might be.. "make a site that reviews android science-related apps, and make a downloadable market app and be that thing in that space"10:35
kanzurebdesk: the real reason that doesn't exist is because nobody is going to submit to your no-name journal10:36
bdeski agree10:36
kanzureelsevier owns something like 10,000 journals10:36
kanzurethe majority of them are 5-10 professors that have known each other for 40+ years10:36
bdeskim not saying that it's simple, just that it could be stable if it could ever become established.10:36
kanzurethe problem there isn't making a new system, but rather convincing all of them that something different is better10:37
bdeskkanzure: agreed on all counts, that's where my remark about politics comes from.10:37
Utopiahbdesk: it's long and old but I think well written http://www.arl.org/resources/pubs/mmproceedings/138guedon.shtml10:37
kanzureheh "How Commercial Publishers Managed to Harness the Digital Revolution into a Counterrevolution"10:38
klafkai am still of the opinion that the idea of peer review in its current form needs to be replaced by a more reddit-like organization10:41
klafka \ social network situation10:41
kanzurehuh never knew about cnslp10:42
bdeskI think peer review could stay in its current form.  It's not like the peer reviewers are being paid right now anyway.  Neither are the authors.10:42
kanzureyeah, an experimental peer review site might be fun..10:42
kanzurewhere you give the link to the reviewers and they write down everything wrong on the site10:42
klafkawell bdesk lets think about what the point of peer review10:42
klafkaexactly kanzure10:42
kanzurewith an ipad app (web view) and other shit10:42
klafkaand you can apply points to the paper10:43
kanzurethen you can do a peer reviewing economy.. blah blah blah10:43
klafka_however_ points should not be applied equally10:43
bdeskIm just saying that if you want to change the publishing system then it is possible to make it free without also changing the review system.10:43
klafkai agree10:43
klafkabut i kind of want to change both10:43
klafkaI think peer review is not the best10:43
bdeskIf you want to turn it into reddit at the same time, then this will only be more things to change at once.10:43
klafkafaceface and i have talk about this a lot10:43
kanzurenobody would use reddit for peer review10:44
klafkabdesk so your basic idea is that cataclysmic change will never work10:44
kanzurewhat they will want is a private, locked-down login system, etc. etc.10:44
klafkakanzure i'm not saying use reddit10:44
klafkai'm saying a login system tied to your actual credentials10:44
klafkain some cases anonymity on the web is good10:44
klafkasometimes its not10:44
bdeskI'm saying that changing to a free system is cataclysmic enough, as kanzure has pointed out already.  and that redditizing it is unneccesary excess calamity to add to the process.10:44
klafkabdesk it may be the case that you must radicalize past a certain point for people to embark on the process10:45
klafkaperhaps it has to be so completely different10:45
klafkano i don't really believe that10:45
kanzureheh "If, through the manipulation of the number of articles in a given database, a publisher manages to affect the rate of use of its own articles, it also stands to reason that this publisher is able to affect the citation rate of its articles."10:47
bdeskI think that the journal system can be replaced by a free system with basically zero difference from the perspective of authors and reviewers.10:47
klafka agreed10:48
klafkai think bdesk that is slowly happening10:48
klafkahonestly10:48
kanzure"The European Union has quietly blocked the merging of Reed-Elsevier with Kluwer that had been announced in October 1997, but the Anglo-Dutch giant has recently acquired Academic Press."10:48
klafkawe need the death of IEEE and ACM and Jstor and elsevier10:48
kanzureand acs10:50
fennthere will be a private showing of "limitless" at ardent west tomorrow.. anyone in the bay area?10:51
bdeskis that another kurzweil film10:51
kanzure:( i want to go10:51
fennno10:51
kanzurebdesk: hell no10:51
Utopiah(and that before they die they open all their usage statistics)10:51
fennit's about some loser who takes drugs10:51
fennand then he is not a loser anymore :)10:52
kanzurethat's pretty much it..10:52
fennok now you dont need to see it10:52
fennanyone know what the shape in the middle is called? not the icosahedron: http://fennetic.net/irc/icosa_somethingorother.jpg10:54
fennand inscribed ____10:54
bdeskdoes it have 20 sides10:55
bdeskfaces10:55
kanzurelooks like 12 faces?10:55
bdeskdodecahedron?10:55
bdeskis it regular10:55
fennso it's a regular dodecahedron10:55
bdeskare its faces pentagons10:56
fennyou can see how close i am by how close the white spots are to the center of the triangles10:57
fennbdesk yeah10:57
fenncan you not see images?10:57
fennsave our race. know the truth! http://anti-dolphin.org/11:00
fennhmm, youtube-dl is busted11:02
kanzurefenn: the real truth http://web.archive.org/web/20020324181447/http://dolphinsex.org/11:02
bdeskall this time ive been eating non-dolphin-safe tuna because it tastes better, now i know it is also the morally superior choice11:02
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fennnew invention allows humans to live forever!!!!!!!!11:06
fenn"A male dolphin could snap your neck in a accidental thrust, and that would be the end of that relationship.11:08
fennwhy the hell am i reading this11:08
kanzurehahahah11:08
kanzureyou wanted the truth! it's out there.11:08
fenni watched enough x-files, thank you11:10
kanzuredo you want to join deliquentme, ybit, thesnark and Nam-Ereh-Won on a one-month project?11:13
kanzurethe peer review app might work if everyone likes that11:13
fennno i'm busy11:14
kanzureokie dokie11:14
fennmaybe after burning man11:14
fenn(mid september)11:14
kanzureooh i'll be back in time for like.. one day of burning man11:14
kanzureoh "sold out" what?11:15
kanzurethere's tickets?11:15
fennpff forget it, you're like 6 months too late11:16
fennyou'd die instantly anyway11:16
kanzureheat?11:16
fenn"what no internet? ah.. ah.. aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrggghh..."11:16
kanzurei'm not that bad without internet access11:17
kanzurebut i would be confused: aren't these the cool people who should be carrying around mesh networks and shit?11:17
fennno internet, phone, running water, air conditioning, and an infestation of hippies who want to hug you with their sweaty dusty patchouli scented bodies11:17
fennand yes there are cool people who _should_ be carrying around mesh networks11:18
fennbut last year that didnt work so well for me11:18
fenni could get like one bar of wifi from my dish pointed across the city, managed to get a dhcp lease and like 1 ping to google11:18
kanzureoh google would be cool. i meant local network anyway.11:19
fennhm it looks like i managed to send some emails from center camp on 2010-09-0211:21
klafkai  had to sell my tickets11:21
klafka;(11:21
kanzurehere's another idea..11:29
kanzurecrowdsourced "industrial infrastructure" mapping11:29
kanzurewith a mobile app to take photos of factories11:29
kanzurethen view the entries on a map online or on the phone11:29
kanzure(so photos of factories and other facilities)11:29
kanzurea nootropics site might be fun11:30
klafkaso basically organizing iminst and journal info?11:31
kanzuremaybe that, or competitions, or data collection, or sales11:31
kanzuredunno.11:31
klafkaah11:31
kanzuremobile silkroad.. hah11:33
kanzurehttp://ianxz6zefk72ulzz.onion/ etc. etc.11:34
fennif y'all wanna compile nootropics prices (scrapers would be hot) and present in a clear consistent format, that'd be nice11:41
kanzurewhat about "complimentary mass spectroscopy and testing"11:41
kanzureeh nevermind that's not gonna happen in a month11:41
kanzurethe problem with a shopping aggregator is that it makes me feel grimy/sleezy11:42
kanzurei agree that it would be useful11:42
kanzurefenn: can you link to some sources?11:42
kanzureebay stores, alibaba users, shady sites?11:43
fennthis is all i got http://fennetic.net/irc/drug_prices11:43
fennand smart-drugs.net11:44
kanzuresmarterdrugs.org is available11:44
kanzureactually, you could probably make an argument that a nootropics site like that should be a subscription service11:48
kanzure"because it's smart to pay for this"11:48
kanzurehah11:48
fennmeh11:48
fennrather do referral revenue11:48
fenndon't get int he way11:49
kanzureNam-Ereh-Won: ping11:51
Nam-Ereh-Wonpong11:53
kanzurefenn: Nam-Ereh-Won is an old high school friend of mine currently moving into what might be a hosting company job11:53
kanzureprolly what you did for whoever it was11:53
fennblegh11:53
fenntell him to ask for more money11:54
Nam-Ereh-Wonbeats end luser support11:54
fennoh hi11:54
Nam-Ereh-Wonyo11:54
kanzureso i'm trying to convince him to do a project with ybit and thesnark11:54
kanzurepossibly this nootropics aggregator shopper thing or the factory mapper11:54
* fenn mumbles something about giving away all his ideas11:55
fenni'm manfred macx11:56
fenngod what a terrible book11:57
kanzurewhat about a site to organize http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/12:01
kanzuredeliquentme might like that12:01
kanzureeightpennies is always complaining that nobody reads enough12:01
kanzurei can't think of anything particularly practical though.. i mean that's more like a blog12:02
kanzuregitduino-for-microfluidics (way easier than writing lolcad.. that's for sure)12:03
fenna site to organize journalz?12:03
fennbut you're not swedish..12:04
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kanzurefenn: how about android marketplace for science apps12:08
fennum, no12:09
kanzureit's a pretty standard model.. the site does a market app, does reviews/aggregation, etc.12:09
kanzureproblem is that most science apps seem to be lame so far12:09
fennwho looks at a website for android apps? nobody, that' swho12:09
fennnobody^212:09
kanzureno i'm talking about a market12:09
kanzureit's the same exact model as a debian mirror12:10
fennso i have to figure out how to install a new market on my phone? not gonna happen12:10
kanzureyou click "download" and you're done12:10
fennwell, i dont get it12:10
kanzurethe default market app sucks12:10
fennwhy not just make some science apps instead?12:10
superkuhDoes anyone do anything scientific or engineering related on an android device?12:11
fennno12:11
kanzurepeople carry around smartphones into their labs but all the equipment is so old you couldn't interface 'em even if you wanted to12:11
kanzurecowell has been using photography as a way to get people at bosslab to document their work12:11
kanzurephotos are posted to a web server12:11
fennusb to rs232 not good enough?12:11
kanzureand then they are forced/required to tag and comment on what the heck they were doing12:11
fennok sure a documentation app12:12
fenna hackerspace management app12:12
kanzurefenn: well someone on the biologigaragen list was doing a cell counting app.. meh12:12
fennyes that sounds useful too12:12
kanzurefenn: that's not a "solved" problem even on desktop really12:12
fenni know, mattyg is working on it12:12
fennanyway colony counting or bacteria counting is simple12:13
kanzureyup12:13
kanzureoh i wonder if my scraper finished12:14
kanzurefor that chemical inventory site12:14
kanzureheh yep12:14
kanzure1.1 GB12:14
kanzuretarring..12:15
QuantumGcareful, you might get someone saying you're racist for using the word "tar"12:16
kanzureheh professorstacks.. a comedy game where you submit pics of your professor's stacks/piles of papers in their offices12:17
kanzurecould be dangerous.12:17
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/quartzy/12:18
kanzureindex.txt is 28 MB be careful12:18
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kanzurequartzy_files.tar is 924 MB12:18
kanzuredelinquentme: see the backlog for a few ideas of projects.. (1) urban mapping of locations of factories via photo submission and google maps; (2) nootropics shopping aggregator and pricing site; (3) android marketplace for science apps and reviews12:19
kanzureoh and (4) science lab coat embroidery service (i.e. for software logos and other things)12:20
delinquentmeoh i thought these were supposed to be directly science / longev related12:21
kanzurethey could be12:21
delinquentmeshould we put everyones resumes up in a single spot?12:21
delinquentmeso we know what talent we're working with/12:21
kanzureyeah12:21
kanzurethe people are: delinquentme, ybit, thesnark, possibly foucist, possibly Nam-Ereh-Won12:22
kanzureif you have a 1-month project idea for longevity.. let's ehar it12:22
kanzurehear12:22
delinquentmemaria kov mentioned making a map12:24
delinquentmesomething which would allow people to add their own thoughts on the matter12:24
kanzureeh?12:24
kanzurewhat would that do?12:25
delinquentmewe've got the "whos who of biogerontology" available to us12:25
kanzureyeah i've got that database too..12:25
klafkaheh12:25
delinquentmemap >> allow people to contribute thoughts to what they might do with the extra time12:26
kanzureoh this is from forever ago but i suggested it to ybit12:26
kanzurea lab rat adoption service so that experimentalists don't have to sacrifice 'em12:26
delinquentmebut really i think id like to address those who already know they'd like to live longer12:26
delinquentmecute12:26
kanzure(so, the website primarily- not the actual service)12:26
kanzurei mean, not the actual rat keeping12:27
fennthey don't have to sacrifice them12:27
fennalso, they're still useful for other purposes12:27
delinquentme but dont these rats also have all kinds of stuff running through them12:27
delinquentmethey are after all biomedical expiriments12:27
delinquentmepersonally id like to say lets hit on the angle list12:27
kanzuredelinquentme: the cancerous mice and rats? sure..12:27
kanzurewhat? you don't even have a product lolz why would you post to angel list12:28
delinquentmewhat information can we provide to the VCs on angle list .. which would be of benefit to them12:28
delinquentmekanzure, i mean look at these guys12:28
gedankenstueckedelinquentme: thats the reason why they have to kill lab animals after your experiments in germany afair12:28
delinquentmeas customers12:28
delinquentmesay "this is the target market .. these are the guys we want to bring benefit to"12:28
kanzurewell someone did and that's why they came up with awful ideas like lunchwithme and shit12:29
delinquentmei bet every last one of them are in some way interested in life extension12:29
delinquentmebut why would a vc want to commoditize their time12:29
delinquentmethats a shitty idea12:29
delinquentmewhat do those VCs want12:29
kanzurei wish i had the link.. it's pretty hilarious12:29
delinquentmewe could easily make a service that would provide some kind of graphical representation of whats getting talked about in the DIY bio circles12:30
kanzurethey want peopel to stop bugging them with bad ideas, they want to make money, they want to negotiate terms that are good for them12:30
kanzurewhy would they care about that?12:30
delinquentmeinformation12:30
kanzureif they were going to invest in biotech why would they go to the software circles?12:31
kanzureand much less a non-commercial biotech group?12:31
delinquentmewhat would make the lives of those VC's who are experienced in biology ... to find more bio ventures .. or to better quantify those that are out there12:31
kanzure"don't invest $80 billion in someone with no product"12:32
delinquentmedo we have someone proficient in autocad?12:32
delinquentmethere is w/o a doubt money to be made in automation in bio12:33
kanzurei've used a lot of cad tools like autocad, solidworks, pro/engineer, catia, alibre, heekscad, brlcad, opencascade, openscad..12:33
delinquentmesweet12:33
kanzurewhere do you see that money coming from?? labs are way too cheap12:33
fennautocad sucks12:33
delinquentmekanzure, the machines out there .. or processes which havnt yet been automated12:33
kanzurethat's usually a market problem not an engineering problem12:34
kanzurei.e., the market is so messed up in its structure that they'd rather hire undergrads than buy equipment12:34
delinquentmeminiprep  >>  PCR >> gel electro12:34
delinquentmetrue but at the same time we could make those grads more productive12:35
delinquentmenow i've only been in 1 legit lab.. but from what i was told .. the work is all veryyy linear12:35
delinquentmewith lots of waiting time12:35
fennthis is what i'm going to be building soonish12:35
kanzurethere's lots of monotonous work, sure12:35
fennsomething grad students can afford themselves and tell the PI to fuck off12:35
kanzureand i love me my equipment and robotics and automation12:35
kanzurefenn: ok, that might work12:36
fennand actually make it "actually open source"12:36
delinquentmethats a cool idea12:37
fenni havent even told you what i'm doing12:37
delinquentmeor even if you made something under the chump change number12:37
delinquentmeit'd be like a non issue to purchase12:37
fennobviously you dont understand lab funding politics12:38
delinquentmefenn dont they have a discretionary budget?12:38
delinquentmelike "common change" of like $500 or something12:38
fennyou couldn't buy so much as a pair of gloves if it was perceived as unjustified12:38
fennit depends on the institution12:39
delinquentmein no way would it be unjustified12:39
fenni said "perceived as"12:39
delinquentmeit just wouldnt have to be run through the purchase channels12:39
kanzureno they run everything through the purchase channels12:39
kanzurein fact they sometimes have required 'vendors'12:39
kanzure(vendors that have made deals with the institution and bought their souls, etc.)12:39
kanzureanyway, getting around that by something that the grad studens would buy is an interesting approach12:40
kanzure*students12:41
delinquentmenovel for sure12:41
delinquentmeare pipettes easy to build?12:41
delinquentmewell the usual better / cheaper  deal12:41
kanzuresomeone posted a spec sheet for pipettes on diybio about 15 months ago12:41
kanzurepipette tips, i mean12:42
kanzuredelinquentme: keep thinking about 1-month web/mobile app ideas12:43
kanzuredoesn't have to be something that makes money.12:43
delinquentmegilt group for medical equip?12:44
delinquentmedoesnt work with the purch structure though12:44
delinquentmeyeah ill stash it12:44
kanzureoh there's also my silly password recovery site idea.. the one that automatically switches out your password on 100s of sites12:46
Utopiah(related http://www.leavethenet.com )12:46
kanzurethere's another one.. d-something.me.. i can't remember the url12:47
kanzurebut they got monies, some cookie deleter.12:47
klafkacould you make pippette tubes with 3d printers?12:48
kanzurenot as efficiently as the factories :p12:48
kanzurealso i think cathal made a microcentrifuge tube on a makerbot or reprap about two years ago12:49
kanzurenot quite a pipette tip12:49
klafkaaa12:49
klafkawell yeah surprisingly not as efficient as factories :P12:49
klafkaprobably way more costly too12:49
klafkaoh hey you guys would probably know, what's a good place to look for job listings for startups/interesting companies in the bay area?12:50
delinquentmey combinator?12:51
delinquentmeerm hacker news i mean12:51
klafkathey seem to always have very few postings12:51
kanzurenews.ycombinator.com/item?id=283164612:51
klafkaooh that's cool12:52
klafkai'm actually applying for one of those jobs there12:54
Utopiahklafka: are there events organized by local incubators?12:59
klafkano12:59
klafkai am remote12:59
klafkai live in rochester ny12:59
klafkai want to move to sf though13:00
klafkaor rather, there probably are there13:00
kanzurethere are some fun jobs in nyc.. like stackoverflow13:00
kanzureand makerbot industries is hiring some more web dev knowhow13:00
klafkarochester ny is however 6hrs from nyc13:01
klafkai'm trying to find like entry level data mining / "engineer" jobs13:02
kanzurewhat the heck is "entry level"13:02
kanzuredo you have a resume i can look at?13:02
klafkasure13:02
klafkaemailed13:03
kanzurenice13:04
kanzurei like the formatting13:04
kanzureit almost hides the fact that you've only worked in labs13:05
klafkayup13:05
klafkathat is my problem, there aren't real jobs here13:05
kanzurewelp.. you wanna work on the 1-month project with the others in here?13:06
klafkasure13:06
kanzurepile on.. get some interesting non-research-related project on your resume13:06
klafkayeah i'm also working on extending pyMC13:06
kanzurecool.13:06
kanzurehave you used scikit.learn?13:06
klafkai want to extend it for various ensemble MCMC methods13:06
klafkahmm no13:07
kanzuretake a look at the crazy stuff going on here13:07
kanzurehttp://scikit-learn.sourceforge.net/stable/13:07
delinquentmeoh kanzure that reminds me13:07
klafkai assume it's built on matplotlib/scipy/numpy13:07
delinquentmeanother thing i was intersted in13:07
kanzureklafka: actually i don't know, i hope it's on top of scipy :)13:07
klafkahahaha13:07
delinquentmesmaller financial planning services ... it would be hella easy to provide montecarlos for them with AWS13:07
klafkainteresting kanzure, they don't have a lot of fancy techniques13:08
klafkabut very interesting13:08
kanzurethere was one that had tooons of crazy algorthims going on13:08
kanzurewas it somehow related to nltk? augur might know..13:08
klafkahmm maybe13:09
klafkais nltk any good?13:09
kanzurei used it a few times.. it did what i needed13:09
augurO_O13:09
klafkai was reading the book that goes with it but i got kind of sick of the book13:09
augurwhat13:09
kanzurehah there's a book!13:09
kanzurealright well that's.. something i'll have to avoid13:09
klafkahttp://www.nltk.org/book13:09
klafkait was just too much intro to python and intro to nl13:09
klafkanlp13:09
evolvno wonder why nobody talks in bioinfo anymore13:09
klafkaevolv i haven't talked in here or there in awhile13:10
klafkaactually13:10
auguri dont know jack about nlp13:10
delinquentmehmmm NLP for ruby >>> http://mendicantbug.com/2009/09/13/nlp-resources-for-ruby/13:10
kanzureaugur: i thought you did linguistic stuff13:10
auguri do.13:10
augurnlp isnt linguistics13:11
kanzureevolv: yeah this is sort of a crazy channel13:11
kanzureevolv: we swing between "a bunch of losers on irc" and "wait you're using how many terajoules"13:11
evolv:D13:11
evolvsweet, I'm down with that13:12
kanzureaugur: :( ok13:12
augurNLP is to Linguistics as the design of genome scanners is to biology13:12
augurnot even, because genome scanners might be useful for biologists13:12
augurwhereas NLP provides nothing for linguists to use13:13
delinquentmelinguistics >> input for the NLP13:14
augurdelinquentme: not even13:14
augurNLPers basically ignore linguistics13:15
delinquentmeno?13:15
delinquentmehow?13:15
klafkaaugur modern nlp seems totally statistical13:15
delinquentmejust saying .. bc that doesnt sound to me like its accurate13:16
delinquentmeslash "makes sense"13:16
augurklafka: its not, but NLPers wont let you know that13:18
augurdelinquentme: it DOESNT make sense but its pretty much true13:18
klafka? i mean i guess a;ll the NLP is statistical learning/inference, like CRFs for PoS tagging say13:18
delinquentmeaugur, so you're saying its not based on statistic nor linguistics13:18
klafkaer that i've seen13:18
delinquentmewhats in the background ?13:19
augurdelinquentme: not _entirely_ statistics13:19
augurit makes heavy use of statistics13:19
augurbut NLPers will often say its _just_ statistics13:19
klafkaso the other part isn't linguistics?13:19
augurwhich is false13:19
augurklafka: indeed. the other part is whatever state machines/formal grammars work best for the task at hand13:19
auguror if its not a parsing-like task, whatever random idea they have13:20
klafkai see13:20
augurand fair enough, those extra bits often work and lead to interesting new ways of modelling the phenomenon in question13:20
auguror at least of getting better results13:20
augurbut they dont take any hints from linguistics13:20
augurand at this stage they probably dont _need_ to13:21
klafkai see13:21
klafkai guess i don't really know enough about linguistics to make intelligent comments about it13:21
augurNLP is like pre-newtonian physics13:21
klafkai'm starting to think that more and more, most fields are like biology13:22
klafkaand physics is hte exception13:22
augurthe step from aristotle to galileo vs the step from einstein to witten, or something13:22
klafkathat most fields are very heterogenous in nature and may not have a 'relatively' simple set of rules to model it13:23
klafkalike physics13:23
augurNLP is hacking away at big chunks, low hanging fruit, easy targets13:23
klafkai see13:23
augurand so what theyre doing can indeed make "huge" strides13:23
auguror if you want to compare it to art13:24
augurthink of the different between the initial whacks at a piece of marble that cut away big chunks of unnecessary marble13:25
augurvs the latter stages of the sculpture, where you have to be precise, nuanced, and you have to know the shape you're trying to make intimately well13:25
augurbeginning sculptors can get you a vague outline of a human13:26
augurbut only michelangelo can get you david13:26
augurthe statistical methods that NLPers use are the same as in cancer detection systems, for instance13:31
augurnot sort of, but literally.13:31
klafkaright13:31
augurive taken NLP courses. unabashedly NLP courses. and half the time, the explanations for the algos used these other tasks as examples13:32
augurwhich is fine, but it means that what NLP is currently doing is carving out the regularity that isn't really particular to language13:32
klafkaeh, it could be that the techniques generalize well13:33
klafkai mean regresion analysis is used for finance and biology13:33
klafkadoes that mean they are both immature ?13:33
auguryes13:33
augurit means that our understanding of finance and biology is very young13:34
augurfinance and biology are clearly different systems obeying different laws in one way or another13:34
klafkaeh, in kind but not overall, they (though they may not be ) abstractly be the same13:35
klafkai mean the advantage of modelling is to simplify the reality so that you can do something useful with it13:35
augurit depends on what you mean by abstractly13:35
augurat some level, EVERYTHING is abstractly the same13:35
augurits a matter of approximation13:35
klafkaright13:36
augurif you approximate, you can unify a lot of things13:36
augurbut approximations are approximations13:36
klafkayou seem to believe that the level of utility necessarily goes up as the level of detail does13:36
augurif you want better approximations, you have to specialize13:36
auguroh no this isnt about level of utility13:36
klafkait's just about the accuracy of the model?13:36
augurNLP as it is is incredibly successful at what its intended for13:37
augurbut what it's intended for is not understanding how language works13:37
klafkaoh13:37
klafkayeah totally13:37
klafkaagreed13:37
klafkait's for doing useful things13:37
augurfor some definition of useful :)13:38
klafkanot that that isn't necessarily useful13:38
klafkabut NLP seems muc more utilitarian13:38
klafkaparticularly w/ the web13:38
augurits very utilitarian in some sense13:38
auguri mean, yeah, a web example is good13:39
auguryou have to have the ability to handle noisy, poorly written text from all sorts of people13:39
augurnon-native speakers, children, regional variation, etc.13:39
klafkaidiots13:40
augurnot that this is what most NLPers are aiming for13:40
auguri mean, the big bucks come from crap like sentiment analysis13:40
augurand most sentiment analysis is crap13:40
augurbut it sells13:40
klafkainteresting13:41
augursentiment analysis, btw, is stuff like looking at movie reviews and judging whether its a positive or negative review13:42
auguror that sort of thing13:42
auguris this blog post pro- or anti-israel13:42
auguretc13:42
augurthese are common themes in the sentiment analysis literature13:43
klafka*nod13:43
klafkai see13:43
klafkawhy do you think it sucks?13:43
klafkai mean you can view it as just a supervised learning problem13:43
klafkaif you have a lot of data13:43
klafkaor perhaps an unsupervised learning problem13:43
augurwhy do i think what sucks13:45
klafkasentiment analysis13:45
augurim not saying sentiment analysis sucks13:46
augurwhere did you get that impression13:46
augurwell ok13:46
augurmost sentiment analysis TECHNIQUES are crap13:46
auguryes13:46
augurbut thats just because people aren't actually applying real learning techniques to the task13:47
augurmost sentiment analysis is just shit like token counting or keyword finding13:47
augurthe real sentiment analysis people dont suck, they do proper work13:48
augurtheres just a lot of bs13:48
klafkaaah i see13:50
klafkagotchya13:50
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delinquentmekanzure, http://www.lifetechnologies.com/content/lifetech/en/home/about-life-technologies/grand-challenges.html?ICID=LTHP-LGC-061114:21
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kanzurevarious "plan b"s for patents http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=285539714:42
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kanzurehttp://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/17-07/st_singularity15:18
fennhttp://www.cremationsolutions.com/Personal-Cremation-Urns-for-ashes-c109.html15:18
kanzureglad to see tv/vcr repair a part of the singularityu curriculum15:19
kanzurefenn: someone should give one of osama to obama15:24
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kanzuredesai shukla?16:33
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delinquentmehttp://www.lifetechnologies.com/about-life-technologies/grand-challenges/speed.html17:05
delinquentmeso this is asking to halve the prep time on a sequence machine17:05
delinquentmeis that difficult?17:05
kanzuredepends on the machine17:06
kanzureit might be a design flaw17:06
delinquentmePostresQL!17:08
delinquentmehttp://www.lifetechnologies.com/about-life-technologies/grand-challenges/accuracy.html17:08
delinquentmeand this particular one is straightforward programming17:09
delinquentmekanzure, lol what is our institution name?17:14
delinquentmethe 4 internets-men?17:15
QuantumGis lolcad dead yet?17:17
klafkawhy isn't there a grand challenge to make viable cheap dna writing technology17:20
kanzurehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_virtual_communities_with_more_than_100_million_users17:25
kanzureQuantumG: not quite :)17:25
kanzure"As of july 11, 2011, the active QQ users accounts for QQ IM totaled 812.3 million"17:25
kanzure"The number of simultaneous online QQ accounts exceeded 100 million"17:26
QuantumGwhat's a QQ?17:28
klafkaprobably something chinese17:28
QuantumGahh, right17:29
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kanzurehi ferrouswheel17:33
kanzureQuantumG: most popular im program in the world17:33
delinquentmeQuantumG, kanzure >> http://xkcd.com/256/17:39
delinquentmewait thats not the right one!17:39
delinquentmehttp://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/online_communities_2_large.png17:41
delinquentmethere we go17:41
kanzurenot really accurate17:42
kanzureand that's very old17:42
delinquentmewonk brb17:44
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kanzuremy qq id is 230297676317:49
QuantumGit's an icq knockoff right?17:50
QuantumGI vaguely remember this17:50
kanzureeverything is an icq knockoff17:51
kanzureapparently you have to have an icq id to be big in porn or advertising17:51
kanzurethe lower the better..17:51
kanzurethose are the only two industries that still care about icq17:51
klafkahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4zw99VsoMA17:56
QuantumGor hacking17:56
QuantumGor credit card fraud17:56
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klafkakanzure i read that on reddit as well17:57
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kanzureQuantumG: nah, credit card fraud has migrated back to irc again18:13
kanzureit's a ciruclar thing18:13
QuantumGwell, the brief experiment with carding forums and tutorial archives, etc, did net a large number of convictions.18:14
kanzurehrm18:15
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kanzureheh fossasia is being hosted in ho chi minh city this year19:33
ferrouswheelg'day kanzure20:54
kanzurehi20:54
ferrouswheelmy icq was 9311884.... but then it got hacked and the icq website was hopeless to try to fix the issue.20:55
ferrouswheelbut at that stage the only contacts I really had on there we're teenage girls I'd never met (I was also a teenager!)20:56
kanzurei have 556283484 and possibly one in the 7000000 range20:56
ferrouswheelWhich probably meant half of them were men in their 40s.20:56
kanzuredunno man.. half of the teenaged girls on AIM turned out to be teenaged girls on AIM20:56
kanzurenow they are young 20-somethings on AIM :)20:57
ferrouswheelhaha20:58
kanzurenice: http://computationaltales.blogspot.com/p/posts-by-topic.html21:06
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kanzuredeliquentme: aubrey replied21:58
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--- Log closed Mon Aug 08 00:00:15 2011

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