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| kanzure | parallax is going to be selling some open source hardware product at radioshack soon | 08:56 |
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| kanzure | beep | 09:31 |
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| kanzure | http://www.arsbiologica.org/2011/08/diybio-los-angeles-interview-with-romie.html | 10:00 |
| kanzure | http://diybiosummit.eventbrite.com/ | 10:00 |
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| kanzure | http://www.openhardwaresummit.org/attend-2011/ | 11:12 |
| kanzure | september 14th, 15th | 11:12 |
| kanzure | fossasia is nov. 11-13 | 11:12 |
| kanzure | cool no conflict.. was worried for a moment | 11:12 |
| kanzure | open science summit is oct. 22-23 | 11:13 |
| kanzure | manchester diybio is oct. 29 | 11:13 |
| kanzure | icontvl (a transhumanist conference in israel) is oct. 24 http://www.icon.org.il/2011/en/CFPposthumanismcon2011 | 11:14 |
| kanzure | ephemerisle 2012 is june 9-10 | 11:16 |
| kanzure | quantified self 2012 is may 26-27 | 11:16 |
| kanzure | personalized life extension 2012 undecided | 11:16 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: have you read http://protocol-online.org/ yet | 12:42 |
| delinquentme | yeahhh ive got it saved | 12:44 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, i think im gonna send them my resume and just stay on them till they put me in touch with someone in computation | 12:45 |
| delinquentme | :D | 12:45 |
| delinquentme | they will let me help them | 12:45 |
| delinquentme | but yeah i was looking over the minipreps on those | 12:45 |
| delinquentme | but like with the convo with tyr the other day | 12:45 |
| delinquentme | im starting to realize that theres TONS of specialization within research | 12:45 |
| delinquentme | so like most people are going to be able to give me the general overview I want | 12:46 |
| delinquentme | OK H+ ers.. | 12:53 |
| delinquentme | whats the quickest way to learn biology :D | 12:53 |
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| kanzure | one does not learn biology.. only to tolerate it | 13:10 |
| kanzure | i can't remember the exact number but didn't someone say something like "on average people take 2 months per protocol" or whatever? | 13:11 |
| kanzure | ok boys and girls, who wants to guess whether netconsole is tcp or udp | 13:12 |
| delinquentme | 2 months per protocol? | 13:23 |
| delinquentme | i dont follow kanz | 13:23 |
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| kanzure | hrm i'm trying to follow this http://sarah.thesharps.us/2010-03-26-09-41 | 13:25 |
| kanzure | [ 632.180045] console [netcon0] enabled | 13:25 |
| kanzure | [ 632.180056] netconsole: network logging started | 13:25 |
| kanzure | i get to that part; | 13:25 |
| kanzure | but when i type "logger 'yo'" on the machine, it appears in dmesg but isn't sent over netconsole | 13:25 |
| kanzure | huh weird, unknown keycodes get sent over but not anything i type via "logger" | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, 2 months / protocol to understand it? to memorize it? to what | 13:29 |
| delinquentme | design one from scratch maybe | 13:29 |
| delinquentme | 2 months = long ass time | 13:29 |
| kanzure | to get it right | 13:30 |
| kanzure | there are many hundreds of variables that people screw up on when running a protocol | 13:30 |
| kanzure | damn it the one time i bother to set up logging before i turn on my wifi driver, the kernel doesn't crash! | 13:30 |
| kanzure | <--- rage | 13:30 |
| kanzure | what is this devil magic | 13:30 |
| kanzure | not cool | 13:32 |
| kanzure | maybe the ethernet connection is making the wifi driver not be awful | 13:34 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, y humans no machine like | 13:34 |
| delinquentme | this is all im saying. | 13:34 |
| kanzure | what? i don't understand what you just said | 13:34 |
| kanzure | fffuuuu there it goes | 13:36 |
| kanzure | crashed... and nothing shows up in the log | 13:36 |
| kanzure | rtl819xSE:EnableHWSecurityConfig8192:, hwsec:1, pairwise_key:2, SECR_value:c | 13:37 |
| kanzure | rtl819xSE:====>to setKey(), dev:f4de0000, EntryNo:4, KeyIndex:0, KeyType:2, MacAddr00:23:69:40:4f:7d | 13:37 |
| kanzure | where's my kernel panic? i was promised a kernel panic | 13:37 |
| kanzure | well.. there's this? https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=85504 | 13:41 |
| delinquentme | in what ways would synthetic bio push life extension forward? | 13:43 |
| kanzure | what do you mean by "synthetic bio"? | 13:44 |
| kanzure | honestly you should just read 10 of these per day for the next few years: | 13:45 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ | 13:45 |
| kanzure | actually there's not that many | 13:45 |
| kanzure | maybe enough for a few months | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | haha | 13:47 |
| delinquentme | research journals are nuts | 13:47 |
| kanzure | here's a kaeberlein paper http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/Molecular%20basis%20of%20ageing.pdf | 13:47 |
| delinquentme | im reading a protocol now | 13:47 |
| delinquentme | call me nuts | 13:48 |
| delinquentme | the 94th annual Boehringer ingelheim Fonds international titisee | 13:48 |
| delinquentme | conference | 13:48 |
| delinquentme | but | 13:48 |
| delinquentme | whut | 13:48 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: | 13:49 |
| kanzure | http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/338 | 13:49 |
| kanzure | http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/318 | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | that sounds so damn obscure | 13:49 |
| Utopiah | recently on aging http://www.pnas.org/content/108/32/13029 | 13:49 |
| kanzure | this is the one about protocols http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/290 | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | read it | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | cool concept | 13:49 |
| kanzure | back to microfluidics http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/280 | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | but if the proto is still fucked | 13:49 |
| kanzure | ok just making sure | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | it wont work :D | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | its gotta be a software driven thin | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | thing* | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | i was going back and forth about this earlier ... right so we like pretty UI designs | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | BUT | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | whats scalable | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | CODE. not UI designs | 13:50 |
| kanzure | what UI are you talking about ?? | 13:51 |
| kanzure | anyway, biologists are not going to sit around writing up their protocols into machine code | 13:51 |
| kanzure | they tend to be pretty bad programmers | 13:51 |
| kanzure | like.. awful programmers that don't know they are awful, which makes them 10x more deadly | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | duh | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | BUT | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | thats catering the tech to the researchers | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | when were talking automation | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | maaaannn | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | like that one article .. ru kidding me .. a github for bio? | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | no more lots protocols | 13:52 |
| kanzure | what's wrong about git-controlled software-defined protocols? | 13:53 |
| delinquentme | nothing! | 13:53 |
| delinquentme | im saying that it is the bees-knees :P | 13:53 |
| delinquentme | so what if current biologists dont like to code | 13:54 |
| delinquentme | maybe thats the direction i need to talk | 13:54 |
| delinquentme | ... go hunt down tecan and say .. i want to automate | 13:54 |
| delinquentme | meh. | 13:54 |
| delinquentme | ok wait. * keeps going * | 13:54 |
| delinquentme | right .. complete integration and removal of humans .. | 13:55 |
| delinquentme | GRANTED | 13:55 |
| delinquentme | theres still a pay wall there | 13:55 |
| delinquentme | BUT that is OK in the case where its all automated | 13:55 |
| delinquentme | bc people could just be coding up protocols and have it run | 13:55 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure you really groked what jonathan was writing about | 13:56 |
| delinquentme | which solves that other big issue of ... if anyone can make a research grade bio lab ... how do we worry about those who might do bad things with it | 13:56 |
| kanzure | if you have a protocol language in code then you can automatically generate labs-on-a-chip to run those protocols | 13:56 |
| kanzure | so you could just print those out on a laser cutter (or whatever other method you use) | 13:56 |
| kanzure | laser cutter microfluidics haven't been so hot/working lately | 13:56 |
| delinquentme | ohh | 13:56 |
| kanzure | like ASIC but for mini labs | 13:57 |
| kanzure | so he wrote some code to parse lab protocols in english | 13:57 |
| kanzure | if you have a set of standard components for each type of step you could imagine laying out a lab on a chip to do that cheaply | 13:57 |
| kanzure | tbh when i was writing code to generate microfluidic circuits a big stumbling block was how awful the output looked | 14:00 |
| kanzure | like the svg output | 14:00 |
| delinquentme | lemme finish clines paper here .. 1 sec | 14:02 |
| delinquentme | ok so here was my issue | 14:02 |
| delinquentme | I think his expectations for the NLP | 14:02 |
| delinquentme | were a bit high | 14:03 |
| delinquentme | additionally | 14:03 |
| delinquentme | while its a solution for existing protocols | 14:03 |
| delinquentme | you're still relying on the human element for its input | 14:03 |
| kanzure | heh hiding torrents in .png http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=702654 | 14:09 |
| delinquentme | as a prevention for filtering of torrent files? | 14:11 |
| kanzure | hm http://torrentbutler.eu/ | 14:11 |
| delinquentme | isnt the bigger issue making the data transfers less traceable? | 14:11 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, the issues with microfludics among other things is the physics at that level right | 14:18 |
| delinquentme | protocols arent the same between ml and uL | 14:18 |
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| kanzure | http://gizmodo.com/5832735/lego-3d-milling-machine-is-too-bloody-awesome-for-words | 14:53 |
| kanzure | it's cute dunno about awesome though | 14:53 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_, what plastic parts do you use in your instrument? | 14:57 |
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| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, zip ties | 15:06 |
| delinquentme_ | the body / frame heated / bent plastic | 15:06 |
| delinquentme_ | i relocated the compression to a metal body though | 15:06 |
| delinquentme_ | but i've since redesigned that compression housing | 15:06 |
| delinquentme_ | which i think can now be made w plastic | 15:07 |
| delinquentme_ | so Tyrant i got solidworks installed today :D | 15:09 |
| delinquentme_ | any protocols for me :D? | 15:10 |
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| gcpopell | Hey | 15:14 |
| kanzure | hello gcpopell | 15:16 |
| gcpopell | I'm sorta surprised there's so many people in here. | 15:16 |
| kanzure | gcpopell: why's that | 15:17 |
| gcpopell | Most 'niche'/'special interest' ircs, even for active movements, are pretty dead | 15:17 |
| gcpopell | and the transhumanist webspace is sad at points | 15:17 |
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| kanzure | gcpopell: yeah, the majority of actually-transhumanist-stuff is happening via the biohacking/diybio groups | 15:22 |
| gcpopell | right, but even so for discussion forums | 15:22 |
| gcpopell | people are using mailing lists, etc. and poorly designed webforums | 15:22 |
| kanzure | forums suck.. makin' me click everywhere grr | 15:22 |
| kanzure | the mailing lists are dead and haven't grown since 2003 | 15:22 |
| gcpopell | I've generally been of the opinion (though clearly some people disagree) that there's far more usability in forums than mailing list stuff | 15:23 |
| kanzure | yeah i don't care about that any more | 15:23 |
| gcpopell | google groups = modern day mailing list setup | 15:23 |
| kanzure | go write a forum2mail gateway & stfu | 15:23 |
| kanzure | google groups isn't modern at all.. it's broken and hugely behind mailman | 15:23 |
| gcpopell | Heh | 15:23 |
| kanzure | which is sad because mailman is pretty bad too | 15:23 |
| gcpopell | imminst is sorta weirdly set up | 15:24 |
| gcpopell | LW uses the reddit system | 15:24 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_, what do you mean protocols? just read the included tutorials, solidworks' help files are quite good | 15:25 |
| kanzure | lesswrong is a plague that i wish would die | 15:25 |
| kanzure | imminst is "longecity" now (whatever the hell that means) | 15:25 |
| kanzure | but at least their nootropics forum is active... | 15:25 |
| gcpopell | lesswrong is doing good things for the cause | 15:25 |
| kanzure | uhh | 15:25 |
| gcpopell | regardless of what you think of the members proclivities | 15:25 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, i mean bio :D | 15:25 |
| kanzure | are you an eliezer yudkowsky worshipper | 15:25 |
| gcpopell | they've increased signups to cryogenic preservation | 15:25 |
| gcpopell | nope | 15:25 |
| delinquentme_ | more stuff for me to do with a dispensing only liquid handler | 15:26 |
| kanzure | /kickban gcpope-- | 15:26 |
| kanzure | oh | 15:26 |
| gcpopell | I take severe umbrage at his interpretation of many worlds theory | 15:26 |
| Tyrant | dispensing only? huh | 15:26 |
| Tyrant | ? | 15:26 |
| kanzure | okay | 15:26 |
| gcpopell | and some of his decision theory | 15:26 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah just because ive got the fixed head | 15:26 |
| kanzure | great, i really dislike his decision theory | 15:26 |
| kanzure | ok so why is lesswrong worth bringing up here ? | 15:26 |
| Tyrant | well | 15:26 |
| Tyrant | pcr, transfection | 15:26 |
| gcpopell | Because its a decently set up venue for people in the movement, even if its ones you disagree with, to communicate | 15:27 |
| kanzure | what movement? rationality? | 15:27 |
| gcpopell | and transhuman | 15:27 |
| kanzure | uhrm | 15:27 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-07-10.log | 15:28 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_, one sec, let me see if i have the notebook with me where i took my notes wen meeting with labs | 15:28 |
| gcpopell | I understand their philosophy, even if I disagree at points, but they've got a couple things going for them | 15:29 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, how did you go about getting those meetings? | 15:29 |
| gcpopell | 1) They have an easily accessible venue, and 2) They're trying to educate and be ambassadors to people who don't understand | 15:29 |
| kanzure | gcpopell: "so, in a way, they're trying to combat AI singularity with human rationalist singularity, and that just seems dumb to me considering that rationalism isn't really all that empowering." | 15:29 |
| gcpopell | err, I disagree | 15:30 |
| gcpopell | I feel they're trying to prepare as much as possible and guide the AI singularity | 15:30 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_, a few were in the mentor network for te fellowship and for the rest I got introductions through serendipity | 15:30 |
| gcpopell | a number of the posters there work on hard AI research | 15:30 |
| kanzure | yes i'm well aware | 15:30 |
| delinquentme_ | Hmmmm | 15:30 |
| kanzure | i was a siai volunteer for a while | 15:30 |
| gcpopell | of course, I don't believe in provably non-dangerous AGI, I think you can have inductively non-dangerous AGI though | 15:31 |
| gcpopell | a sufficiently general intelligence is capable of deception... | 15:31 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, does SI work w anything bio? | 15:31 |
| gcpopell | of course, I'm not really an AI guy, I'm more a 'current problems' with nano guy | 15:31 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: no, they ignore it :( | 15:31 |
| gcpopell | that's my thesis, actually | 15:31 |
| gcpopell | nanoprinting | 15:31 |
| kanzure | gcpopell: great.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/ | 15:31 |
| kanzure | gcpopell: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer | 15:32 |
| delinquentme_ | colon open paren indeed -[ | 15:32 |
| delinquentme_ | =[ ** | 15:32 |
| gcpopell | not much of a programmer | 15:32 |
| gcpopell | although ahaha | 15:32 |
| gcpopell | open source nano cad? | 15:32 |
| gcpopell | man | 15:32 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: they are more about masturbation mathematics | 15:32 |
| kanzure | gcpopell: yeah dude | 15:32 |
| gcpopell | my work fits that perfectly | 15:32 |
| kanzure | get with the times :) | 15:32 |
| gcpopell | I'm writing a control system that will allow for sub micron printing at will using taylor cones | 15:32 |
| gcpopell | granted, you have expense issues | 15:33 |
| kanzure | you mean a driver for piezos? | 15:33 |
| gcpopell | no | 15:33 |
| kanzure | bbl | 15:33 |
| gcpopell | more like building fundamental theory for near field (sub 30 micron) printing at high frequency | 15:33 |
| gcpopell | it hasn't been done yet | 15:33 |
| delinquentme_ | gcpopell, wait you're printing sub microns | 15:34 |
| delinquentme_ | printing with ** | 15:34 |
| gcpopell | that's the goal, yes | 15:34 |
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| delinquentme_ | or at the sub micron level | 15:34 |
| gcpopell | rather, it's been done, I'm building the mathematical model | 15:34 |
| delinquentme_ | do you know about this machine .... | 15:34 |
| delinquentme_ | ... more | 15:34 |
| gcpopell | to describe with minimal error what's happening from start to finish | 15:35 |
| gcpopell | the theory may apply all the way down to the <10nm level, but we're not there yet | 15:35 |
| delinquentme_ | ohhhh ok | 15:35 |
| kanzure | speak to us in latex math notation | 15:35 |
| gcpopell | if you're interested, look up 'taylor cones' and 'electrohydrodynamic jet printing' | 15:35 |
| delinquentme_ | so this kind of is a software and physics junction | 15:35 |
| kanzure | but really bbl.. | 15:35 |
| gcpopell | nah, it's physics/engineering | 15:35 |
| gcpopell | the software is just simulink | 15:35 |
| gcpopell | I'm a terrible programmer, though I'd like to fix that | 15:36 |
| delinquentme_ | http://dvice.com/archives/2011/07/crazy-looking-m.php | 15:36 |
| delinquentme_ | dar is duh machine | 15:36 |
| gcpopell | we're going from the other direction, shrinking what we can do | 15:36 |
| gcpopell | instead of increasing rate at which molecular assembly happens | 15:36 |
| gcpopell | it'll meet in the middle (lab wise) in estimation 10 years | 15:36 |
| gcpopell | industrially 15? | 15:36 |
| kanzure | simulink :( you might as well be using dynamol or dynma | 15:37 |
| kanzure | or modelica | 15:37 |
| gcpopell | eh, the math's the same | 15:37 |
| gcpopell | and I'm only a masters student | 15:37 |
| gcpopell | I'm out of here ASAP to go work as a defense consultant in predictive modeling | 15:37 |
| gcpopell | I'd like to start a policy think tank for legislative policy based on the societal effects of transhuman technologies | 15:38 |
| kanzure | rrgh | 15:38 |
| kanzure | that totally failed though | 15:38 |
| gcpopell | ie what happens when people want to replace limbs due to prosthetics being better, legal implications of that, etc. | 15:38 |
| kanzure | ieet sucks balls | 15:38 |
| gcpopell | I don't want to be a nonprofit | 15:38 |
| gcpopell | :D | 15:38 |
| gcpopell | I want to be more on the consulting side of the think tank I guess | 15:39 |
| gcpopell | we'll see | 15:39 |
| gcpopell | doing venture capital may take up a lot of my time | 15:39 |
| gcpopell | I'd also like to see better ambassadors out of the H+ community, instead of insular cliques | 15:39 |
| kanzure | i worked as a director of r&d for humanity+ for a while | 15:40 |
| kanzure | i could tell you all the reasons they will never amount to anything | 15:40 |
| gcpopell | H+ as a movement, not as an organization | 15:40 |
| kanzure | so please don't rely on humanity+ | 15:40 |
| gcpopell | sorry, shorthand for transhumanism | 15:40 |
| kanzure | nah they have effectively run the h+ thing into the ground | 15:40 |
| kanzure | (not transhumanism though) | 15:40 |
| gcpopell | I'm supposed to write an article for the magazine | 15:41 |
| gcpopell | I feel like the transhumanist movement has been really terrible at outreach | 15:41 |
| kanzure | did michael coerce you into that | 15:41 |
| gcpopell | Kurzweil is great but he needs to shut up about his dead dad. | 15:41 |
| gcpopell | nah, I volunteered | 15:41 |
| gcpopell | I like having visibility | 15:41 |
| gcpopell | I'm vain, greedy, and proud of it :) | 15:41 |
| kanzure | i have the hplusmagazine stats since i wrote their code, | 15:41 |
| kanzure | and trust me.. they have no readers | 15:41 |
| gcpopell | That's a shame | 15:42 |
| gcpopell | that won't help me get visibility | 15:42 |
| kanzure | the blog is pretty bad | 15:42 |
| kanzure | goertzel sometimes writes a long ok review article but meh | 15:42 |
| gcpopell | the intersection of people interested in transhumanism and people who are able to deal with the larger gaussian area of society isn't very large | 15:43 |
| gcpopell | heh | 15:43 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure that's important | 15:44 |
| kanzure | in fact, humanity+ has proven how useless that is | 15:44 |
| gcpopell | if you want to shape how people perceive and how policy will be made I think it is | 15:44 |
| kanzure | not really.. i mean look at the diybio policy stuff popping up | 15:44 |
| gcpopell | but I think it needs to be a bit more geared towards the 'old white men' group :P | 15:44 |
| kanzure | fuck humanity+ for not getting involved | 15:44 |
| kanzure | pcsbi went pretty well on our own | 15:44 |
| gcpopell | is diybio actually mostly bio? | 15:44 |
| kanzure | (president's commission for the study of bioethical issues) | 15:44 |
| kanzure | hrm? yeah? | 15:45 |
| gcpopell | eh | 15:45 |
| kanzure | there's a lot of transhumanist lurkers in the diybio community | 15:45 |
| gcpopell | there really needs to be a well designed non-subject specific community | 15:46 |
| kanzure | including some people working on longevity/rejuvenation projects, | 15:46 |
| kanzure | augmentation projects, etc. | 15:46 |
| kanzure | i think blog readers vs. forum-goers vs. email monkeys are pretty segregated | 15:46 |
| gcpopell | there's a lot of blogs | 15:47 |
| gcpopell | there's a lot of emails | 15:47 |
| gcpopell | and there's some google groups | 15:47 |
| gcpopell | the forums are almost universally terribly designed, though | 15:47 |
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| kanzure | new diybio article.. | 15:52 |
| kanzure | http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/08/mf_diylab/ | 15:52 |
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| jrayhawk | wasn't your complaint with h+ something about them being more concerned with prestige than evangelism? | 15:55 |
| kanzure | oops am i being inconsistent | 15:56 |
| kanzure | evangelism-for-the-sake-of-evangelism is also pretty bad | 15:56 |
| gcpopell | why do you believe that? | 15:56 |
| kanzure | because look how awful they have made things | 15:57 |
| gcpopell | things have been pretty awful for a while, no? | 15:57 |
| jrayhawk | elaborate | 15:57 |
| gcpopell | it's a very fractured movement | 15:57 |
| kanzure | it's not fractured just incompetent | 15:58 |
| kanzure | i'm sorry but you can't all be "self-promotion evangelists" | 15:58 |
| * fenn glances at some words | 15:58 | |
| kanzure | they are just words don't mind them | 15:58 |
| gcpopell | the problem is that different people want different things and don't respect the fact other people may not want what they want, imo | 15:58 |
| kanzure | except maybe delinquentme_'s crap.. he might need more guidance | 15:58 |
| fenn | "102797 have signed up for the ai class" | 15:58 |
| delinquentme_ | yeap! | 15:58 |
| delinquentme_ | lost child :D | 15:58 |
| gcpopell | nothing wrong with evangelizing, imo | 15:58 |
| gcpopell | I think of it as counter propaganda | 15:59 |
| kanzure | who cares? | 15:59 |
| delinquentme_ | haha was just afk for like 10 mins there .. yapping w a friend about open Hrdware | 15:59 |
| gcpopell | you don't, but other people do | 15:59 |
| kanzure | no i mean... | 15:59 |
| kanzure | how is this directly helping you | 15:59 |
| gcpopell | evangelizing? | 15:59 |
| gcpopell | it means that I can more directly espouse viewpoints without worry of ostracization as they become more mainstream | 16:00 |
| kanzure | yes; are you learning new skills to build nootropics, prosthetics, implants, rejuvenation therapies, or acquiring tools, equipment or other means to acheive our shared ends? | 16:00 |
| kanzure | ok why do you care about what the mainstream thinks so much :/ | 16:00 |
| gcpopell | because there are more of them than us, and they have more money than us | 16:00 |
| gcpopell | and my goals depend on having large quantities of money | 16:00 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, stagnation is a powerful thing | 16:00 |
| kanzure | that's true for just about anything.. | 16:00 |
| gcpopell | and the more you convince | 16:01 |
| gcpopell | the faster it goes | 16:01 |
| kanzure | not really.. look at all the people humanity+ has "convinced" | 16:01 |
| gcpopell | I didn't say they'd done well | 16:01 |
| gcpopell | I said that there goal wasn't ignoble | 16:01 |
| gcpopell | *their | 16:01 |
| kanzure | here's a better strategy, i think | 16:02 |
| kanzure | assume that there will be 0 growth and proceed anyway | 16:02 |
| gcpopell | I disagree, a bit | 16:02 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, h+ didn't really seem like they were structured to get new people involved, more just to increase their own level of authority. | 16:02 |
| kanzure | it's a little funny.. even singularity university isn't skilling people, heh | 16:03 |
| gcpopell | has anyone worked on a modern day transhumanist non-fiction book but without kurzweil's particular variety of preaching? | 16:03 |
| kanzure | well the concept of this channel was originally about a do-it-yourself transhumanism roadmap | 16:04 |
| gcpopell | I'm keeping very detailed notes of my rederivations so to save time for the phd students who work on nanoprinting after me | 16:04 |
| kanzure | what happened to my transhumanism bootcamp idea | 16:04 |
| kanzure | i think the problem was something like "they won't pay $25,000 to learn real things" | 16:05 |
| gcpopell | how would you run a transhumanist bootcamp? You can't get any two people to agree--and you seem to have issues with people that you disagree with how the movement should go | 16:05 |
| kanzure | well, i'd do the training for biology, molecular biology, mechanical engineering, programming, etc. | 16:05 |
| kanzure | oh also the longevity/nanotech/microfluidics/diybio areas | 16:06 |
| kanzure | singularityu works primarily because people are cool with paying $25k to meet other people who can pay $25k to learn about those topics | 16:06 |
| delinquentme_ | transhumanist bootcamp would work except thats a shit monitization strat | 16:07 |
| jrayhawk | "works" | 16:07 |
| kanzure | i didn't confirm this but i'm pretty sure they wouldn't want to be militant about building things | 16:07 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: "gets people to pay" | 16:07 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: actually, singularityu makes money | 16:07 |
| delinquentme_ | the reason you can do that with college educations .. is societal support .. to an outsider trans humanist bootcamp = cult | 16:07 |
| kanzure | it's not college | 16:07 |
| kanzure | (that's just the name) | 16:07 |
| delinquentme_ | im saying its a college pay model | 16:07 |
| kanzure | not really, i don't think people are getting student loans for it | 16:07 |
| kanzure | gcpopell: there's been a few people in here (in this channel) for a few years and i've sorta failed them | 16:09 |
| kanzure | i mean they still don't even know how to use screen | 16:09 |
| kanzure | and i think you're on webirc :/ | 16:09 |
| gcpopell | Yes, because this isn't my primary computer | 16:09 |
| kanzure | this isn't supposed to be the butt-end of technology | 16:09 |
| gcpopell | I'm on vacation | 16:09 |
| kanzure | yeah not you specifically of course.. just met you | 16:09 |
| gcpopell | screen being a bio thing? | 16:09 |
| kanzure | it's a shell tool to keep different terminals attached when you disconnect over ssh or whatever | 16:10 |
| kanzure | very simple tool | 16:10 |
| gcpopell | Ah | 16:10 |
| gcpopell | linux? | 16:10 |
| kanzure | well i guess you can ssh into windows but i don't see why | 16:11 |
| gcpopell | I don't use linux, heh | 16:11 |
| kanzure | osx? | 16:11 |
| gcpopell | W7. | 16:11 |
| gcpopell | I'd never use an apple product. | 16:12 |
| gcpopell | their marketing/aesthetic irritates me | 16:12 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: out of curiosity, how is your makefile-fu or automake/autogen-fu? | 16:12 |
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| kanzure | eudoxia: hope you like the book | 16:13 |
| kanzure | man my demeanor makes me sound depressed today | 16:14 |
| foucist | gcpopell: microsoft's marketing/aesthetic doesn't irritate you? :P | 16:15 |
| gcpopell | not nearly as much | 16:15 |
| gcpopell | For one thing, they don't act like they're not a massive corporation | 16:16 |
| kanzure | why not linux? they don't act like you're a moron | 16:16 |
| kanzure | and if you happen to be a moron it turns out ok too | 16:16 |
| gcpopell | Because the input effort/output effort isn't worth it on linux? | 16:16 |
| gcpopell | For what I do? | 16:16 |
| kanzure | have you tried | 16:16 |
| kanzure | well, i guess it depends on what proprietary software you really need | 16:17 |
| kanzure | simulink is probabyl windows only | 16:17 |
| gcpopell | No, but I've observed time input of various friends | 16:17 |
| kanzure | probably | 16:17 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_, sorry i forgot about the notes, dont have them with me in LA | 16:19 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: did joseph's la thing happen | 16:19 |
| Tyrant | Which LA thing | 16:20 |
| kanzure | ha i guess anything | 16:21 |
| Tyrant | I didnt know he was working on anyhting in LA | 16:22 |
| delinquentme_ | would it be innapropriate for me to send an email to the jcvi with this >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKZ-GjSaqgo <<< and " lol " | 16:22 |
| Tyrant | the stuff he is working on is chile and carlsbad or something | 16:22 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: there's a few biohackers/transhumanists in the diybio community that work for jcvi | 16:22 |
| kanzure | so if you ever have something serious to show them.. | 16:23 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah i want JCV to tell me what protocols to automate to his iphone | 16:23 |
| kanzure | what? | 16:23 |
| kanzure | the iphone isn't a biology lab dude | 16:24 |
| kanzure | that's just an interface.. | 16:24 |
| delinquentme_ | " what to automate " is the question | 16:24 |
| delinquentme_ | correct | 16:24 |
| delinquentme_ | run the shit in browser | 16:24 |
| kanzure | no.. | 16:24 |
| kanzure | you need physical things man | 16:24 |
| kanzure | like equipment | 16:24 |
| delinquentme_ | let them do prep work from a browser | 16:24 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah duh | 16:24 |
| delinquentme_ | browser >> equip | 16:24 |
| kanzure | ok then who cares if it's a browser or native code or what? | 16:24 |
| kanzure | anyway, | 16:25 |
| kanzure | how about you pick a project and just automate it | 16:25 |
| delinquentme_ | entrance strat | 16:25 |
| delinquentme_ | bc its got to be worth something | 16:25 |
| kanzure | automate the design and production of microfluidic labs-on-a-chip | 16:25 |
| delinquentme_ | i guess i could pick a very few # | 16:26 |
| delinquentme_ | but the thing is physics gets wonk at that size | 16:26 |
| kanzure | there's tons of papers man | 16:26 |
| delinquentme_ | not to mention it would need to be a beginning to end expiriment | 16:26 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/ | 16:26 |
| kanzure | many protocols have been ported to microfluidics | 16:27 |
| kanzure | including pcr and other basic stuff | 16:27 |
| kanzure | but also dna sequencing, dna synthesis, etc. | 16:27 |
| kanzure | ah there we go.. just got 187wpm | 16:27 |
| kanzure | http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile?username=kanzure | 16:27 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: I rarely write makefiles, and have never really dealt with auto* | 16:28 |
| kanzure | i see | 16:28 |
| kanzure | i am about to shoot myself in the foot.. | 16:28 |
| kanzure | i'm setting up some infrastructure for compiling opengl es 2.0 shit to iphone/android native sdk | 16:28 |
| kanzure | so gcc arm-7 cross compiling or something (i'm not entirely sure on the details) | 16:29 |
| jrayhawk | it seems unlikely that you're the first person to do so | 16:29 |
| kanzure | well there's others, but they started companies and charge $4000/year per developer per license | 16:29 |
| kanzure | unity3d, airplaysdk, etc. | 16:29 |
| jrayhawk | does the iphonedevonlinux project help you? | 16:30 |
| kanzure | no i think that broke after iOS SDK 2 or something | 16:31 |
| kanzure | oh, 3.1 | 16:31 |
| kanzure | still pretty old | 16:31 |
| kanzure | anyway i don't mind doing my builds on osx as long as i can get them hosted at a colocation facility or something | 16:31 |
| jrayhawk | I guess saurik would probably be the guy to ask about this stuff | 16:33 |
| kanzure | saurik: why haven't you re-ported iOS SDKs back to linux recently | 16:33 |
| kanzure | (kidding) | 16:33 |
| saurik | kanzure: toolchains don't really rot | 16:34 |
| saurik | like, I just compiled some new packages using my linux toolchain a few days ago | 16:34 |
| kanzure | doh i wonder if i even tried it | 16:34 |
| kanzure | saurik: handy links? | 16:35 |
| saurik | also, my main reason for having a linux toolchain was a) to compile complex ports (I actually modified the compiler, linked, and assembler, as required to get linux stuff compiling better), and b) legality: 2.0b6 was under NDA, but had no outright "strings attached", so I can use it for all of my stuff without worry | 16:36 |
| saurik | (that said, cydia now officially compiles using the apple SDK, as it makes it easier to get contributors) | 16:36 |
| saurik | (but stuff like veency still uses my toolchain) | 16:37 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_, from what ive gathered, stuff like browser or mobile based interfaces to the tools are gimmicks to labs. they dont care about them. they have enough trouble getting reasonably priced equipment with even semi decent interfaces | 16:37 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, so end goal is to make automated biology programming driven | 16:37 |
| delinquentme_ | because i say so | 16:37 |
| delinquentme_ | however | 16:37 |
| delinquentme_ | giving someone the option to start a protocol while theyre relaxing somewhere seems of benefit to me .. if nothing else its slightly novel .. and sufficient to get some noise | 16:38 |
| Tyrant | novel but gimmicky | 16:39 |
| delinquentme_ | at the same time .. as im typing this .. an API which drives a liquid handler wouldnt be so bad :D | 16:39 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, what adult doesnt like an iPad? | 16:39 |
| delinquentme_ | big kid toys | 16:39 |
| Tyrant | making an API to drive a liquid handler is incredibly simple as long as you've got some control over the hardware | 16:39 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, thoughts on adding an API to your LH? | 16:40 |
| Tyrant | it already has one | 16:40 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, my thing is i've got web and programming exp .. id like to put some of this to use | 16:40 |
| delinquentme_ | whats the input format? | 16:40 |
| delinquentme_ | make it JSON | 16:40 |
| delinquentme_ | OR XML | 16:40 |
| Tyrant | currently has three commands: move to (x,y), lower or raise pipettes, intake or dispense liquid | 16:40 |
| Tyrant | i can make it whatever i want | 16:41 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah im saying though you should use one of those two | 16:41 |
| delinquentme_ | JSON is kinda the hot shit right now ... and its sufficient | 16:41 |
| Tyrant | currently the code is in python, converts directly to GCode with some extra commands | 16:41 |
| delinquentme_ | python can work with JSON | 16:42 |
| Tyrant | why are you so obsessed with json and xml? | 16:42 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, because i know of the web :D | 16:42 |
| delinquentme_ | API | 16:42 |
| delinquentme_ | this is more than just programming | 16:42 |
| delinquentme_ | API is the magic which allows Rubyist to work side by side with pythonistas as well as java'ers | 16:43 |
| Tyrant | so keep using XML and JSON on the web. adding a json or XML parser to a microcotnroller is also gimmicky | 16:43 |
| delinquentme_ | O_o | 16:43 |
| delinquentme_ | too low level!!!!! | 16:43 |
| Tyrant | and a waste of time | 16:43 |
| delinquentme_ | dude. | 16:43 |
| delinquentme_ | i think i should just come up with a pitch | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | and hit up thermofisher | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | and tecan | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | be like | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | BITCHES | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | give me money | 16:44 |
| Tyrant | you wont get through the front door | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | this is what ima do. | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | HA | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, its cool man | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | lol | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | damn. | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | you | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | me | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | were on the same team here | 16:44 |
| delinquentme_ | "doing" is your call | 16:45 |
| delinquentme_ | im making suggestions with what im seeing this transform into | 16:45 |
| Tyrant | you're focusing on entirely the wrong thing though | 16:46 |
| delinquentme_ | fact or opinion | 16:46 |
| delinquentme_ | ^^^ | 16:46 |
| delinquentme_ | im saying the evolution of bio research | 16:46 |
| delinquentme_ | is not to be contained to warm bodies within a lab | 16:46 |
| delinquentme_ | im saying. | 16:46 |
| delinquentme_ | that this shit will become more of a computer | 16:47 |
| Tyrant | how can you talk about the evolution of bio research when you've never really been in a lab? | 16:47 |
| delinquentme_ | operations normally performed without humans WITHIN the lab | 16:47 |
| delinquentme_ | logical fallacy | 16:47 |
| delinquentme_ | ummm red herring? | 16:47 |
| delinquentme_ | anyways. | 16:47 |
| delinquentme_ | no | 16:47 |
| delinquentme_ | ad hominem | 16:47 |
| Tyrant | are you serious? | 16:47 |
| delinquentme_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem | 16:47 |
| delinquentme_ | yes. | 16:47 |
| delinquentme_ | now do you want to attack my character | 16:48 |
| delinquentme_ | or do you want to talkin motherfuckin science | 16:48 |
| delinquentme_ | =] | 16:48 |
| delinquentme_ | ( srsly im being nice right now ) | 16:48 |
| Tyrant | I'm not attacking your character, I'm attacking your experience with regards to biolabs | 16:48 |
| delinquentme_ | ok so lets continue | 16:48 |
| delinquentme_ | why, do humans need to be in labs | 16:48 |
| delinquentme_ | allow me to liken a lab of sufficiently advanced degree | 16:49 |
| delinquentme_ | to where you can liken it to the inside of a computer case | 16:49 |
| Tyrant | because we lack the algorithms, cost effective robotics, computational power to replace them | 16:49 |
| delinquentme_ | all of which are problems being worked on | 16:49 |
| delinquentme_ | right? | 16:49 |
| Tyrant | oh and we very much lack an open ecosystem where equipment is both digitally and robotically interoperable | 16:49 |
| delinquentme_ | yes? | 16:50 |
| Tyrant | no. not really. | 16:50 |
| Tyrant | it's being worked on by a fringe group of people | 16:50 |
| delinquentme_ | O_o | 16:50 |
| Tyrant | who aren't even remotely well funded | 16:50 |
| delinquentme_ | http://marciovm.com/i-want-a-github-of-science | 16:50 |
| delinquentme_ | ^^^^ | 16:50 |
| delinquentme_ | im kind of taken aback right now? | 16:51 |
| Tyrant | algorithms are being worked on, computational power is being worked on, but for the most part robotics and interoperability are not | 16:51 |
| delinquentme_ | theses are all things i just see as being | 16:51 |
| delinquentme_ | apparent | 16:51 |
| Tyrant | Then make a github for science | 16:51 |
| delinquentme_ | the issue with walking into the HQ of tecan and b eing like | 16:51 |
| delinquentme_ | " give me a machine to automate on a high level through UI and API " | 16:52 |
| delinquentme_ | is that theres still that fucking paywall | 16:52 |
| delinquentme_ | however its a step in the direction of the automation | 16:52 |
| delinquentme_ | in the spirit of software | 16:52 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: to be fair, there are people working on robotics for lab stuff | 16:53 |
| kanzure | but | 16:53 |
| Tyrant | kanzure: yeah im over generalizing | 16:53 |
| kanzure | once you throw in a company, suddenly you're paying your engineers $100k/year | 16:53 |
| kanzure | and then you're paying for patent licensing | 16:53 |
| Tyrant | yep | 16:53 |
| kanzure | and then you're paying for health care | 16:53 |
| Tyrant | Results of that are Benchbot | 16:53 |
| Tyrant | yay benchbot -_- | 16:53 |
| kanzure | there's others though.. i wish i could remember them | 16:53 |
| kanzure | what about that 'robot scientist' from the uk | 16:54 |
| kanzure | is that benchbot? | 16:54 |
| kanzure | sure looks similar.. | 16:54 |
| Tyrant | benchbot is velocity | 16:54 |
| Tyrant | which was acquired by perkinelmer | 16:54 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, what i was getting at with the github example is ... where is this headed | 16:54 |
| Tyrant | no sorry agilent | 16:54 |
| delinquentme_ | like what is the next BIG thing within laboratories | 16:54 |
| Tyrant | I dont know about others. I hear a lot about lab automation but i reserve my judgements till i talk to someone who has to use them | 16:55 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_, the next big thing imo isn't laboratories | 16:55 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, how much of an issue are lost protocols | 16:55 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: lab-on-a-chip was spouted as the "next big thing" | 16:55 |
| kanzure | in labs at least. | 16:55 |
| delinquentme_ | protocols which arent reproduceable | 16:55 |
| delinquentme_ | is that not huge? | 16:55 |
| delinquentme_ | what about when people want to make iterative processes ontop of existing protocols | 16:55 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_, that's huge. every lab i know writes their own by experimenting with existing ones | 16:56 |
| delinquentme_ | currently | 16:56 |
| delinquentme_ | they're running the whole damn thing over | 16:56 |
| delinquentme_ | why. | 16:56 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: maybe i'm missing something but what is the appal of cnc and steppers over piping liquids around? | 16:56 |
| kanzure | yeah, a very simple thing btw | 16:56 |
| kanzure | would be a way to beautify pre-existing protocols | 16:56 |
| kanzure | just the damn formatting even | 16:56 |
| delinquentme_ | well | 16:56 |
| Tyrant | kanzure: what do you mean piping liquid around? | 16:56 |
| delinquentme_ | let me phrase it like this | 16:56 |
| delinquentme_ | the protocol | 16:56 |
| delinquentme_ | needs to be CAUSAL to the expiriment | 16:57 |
| delinquentme_ | currently they are not | 16:57 |
| Tyrant | what do you mean casual | 16:57 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: microfluidics, mems, lab-on-a-chip | 16:57 |
| delinquentme_ | as in the current protocol | 16:57 |
| delinquentme_ | doesnt drive the expiriment | 16:57 |
| delinquentme_ | experiment damn. | 16:57 |
| kanzure | protocols are anything but casual | 16:57 |
| delinquentme_ | instead | 16:58 |
| kanzure | i don't think you understand how much debugging goes into a single protocol | 16:58 |
| delinquentme_ | exactly^^^^^^^^^^^^ | 16:58 |
| kanzure | this is also the same with that opencures/the-vegas-group guy | 16:58 |
| kanzure | he's like "herp derp why should i test my protocols" | 16:58 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_: the protocol IS the experiment for all intents and purposes | 16:58 |
| kanzure | "fuck you that's why" | 16:58 |
| delinquentme_ | if once a protocol is written | 16:58 |
| Tyrant | all you do is change a variable | 16:58 |
| delinquentme_ | like in software | 16:58 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, no | 16:58 |
| delinquentme_ | its not | 16:58 |
| delinquentme_ | protocols are human made | 16:58 |
| delinquentme_ | and error prone | 16:58 |
| delinquentme_ | they're being run by humans for christsake | 16:59 |
| delinquentme_ | wtf | 16:59 |
| delinquentme_ | let us do the concepting | 16:59 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: most protocols involve more than that though, especilaly when something goes wrong | 16:59 |
| delinquentme_ | let machines do tasks | 16:59 |
| kanzure | especilaly | 16:59 |
| kanzure | especially | 16:59 |
| Tyrant | kanzure: I'm not very well versed with what's happening in microfluidics. if they're anything like lab automation it will take a long time for adoption | 16:59 |
| kanzure | geeze. for someone who types 187wpm i sure do typo all over the place. sorry. | 16:59 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: lots of labs have adopted it | 16:59 |
| kanzure | even churchlab has done lots of microfluidics stuff | 16:59 |
| kanzure | but the projects are definitely "one-off" | 16:59 |
| kanzure | dunno if that's a big issue or not.. disposable projects is fine with me i think | 17:00 |
| kanzure | since you usually dispose of everything anyway ('cept you freeze your samples) | 17:00 |
| Tyrant | That depends on how cost effective it is | 17:00 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, so if you had a lab which is run by program code... instead of physical warm bodies flopping about | 17:00 |
| Tyrant | again I dont know how the industry is going outside of the labs ive worked with | 17:00 |
| delinquentme_ | with intelligent algos to manage / time the expiriments | 17:01 |
| delinquentme_ | how much more research could be done | 17:01 |
| delinquentme_ | 45 metric fucktons | 17:01 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_: if you want to do some shit programming wise for automation look into CLIPS | 17:01 |
| delinquentme_ | never heard of it | 17:01 |
| Tyrant | i've been looking at expert systems to run my automation software | 17:01 |
| Tyrant | instead of programming you say "Fill Sample A with 20uL of Reagent B" and the expert system decides the course of action | 17:02 |
| kanzure | that's just natural language processing | 17:02 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, so you dont see the logical evolution of the lab being removal of humans for all purposes save for repair? | 17:02 |
| delinquentme_ | because thats how i see it changing | 17:02 |
| kanzure | there was a link earlier today where jonathan was parsing english protocols into some code | 17:02 |
| Tyrant | the parsing yes, but the expert system has to decide what to do when given the parsed instructions | 17:02 |
| delinquentme_ | ... like sure | 17:02 |
| delinquentme_ | i guess? | 17:02 |
| delinquentme_ | seems easier to make them programmers | 17:03 |
| delinquentme_ | and compile the code before running | 17:03 |
| kanzure | nope.. they are very bad programmers | 17:03 |
| delinquentme_ | ok hold up | 17:03 |
| Tyrant | you'll never make them programmers | 17:03 |
| delinquentme_ | inherently | 17:03 |
| delinquentme_ | SCIENTISTS = BAD PROGRAMMER | 17:03 |
| delinquentme_ | stop | 17:03 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: so one of my earlier projects was to take those parsed instructions and generate lab-on-a-chip designs for one-offs | 17:03 |
| delinquentme_ | this is fucking flawed | 17:03 |
| delinquentme_ | they pipette shit and programming is a corollary | 17:03 |
| delinquentme_ | thats why they suck | 17:03 |
| delinquentme_ | make it their primary function | 17:04 |
| delinquentme_ | give them a mui tai | 17:04 |
| Tyrant | if you try to teach biologists computer science along with making them biologists you'll increase their education time by a couple of years | 17:04 |
| kanzure | nah | 17:04 |
| delinquentme_ | and put em on a beach letting them program protocols .. and im telling you .. thats where its going | 17:04 |
| Tyrant | lol | 17:04 |
| Tyrant | no | 17:04 |
| Tyrant | a programmer can't make shit for protocols | 17:04 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: most biologists do learn some form of coding at some point.. matlab, some c, whatever | 17:04 |
| kanzure | they are just pretty bad :) | 17:04 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, this is FLAWED | 17:05 |
| delinquentme_ | you're talking traditional edu systems | 17:05 |
| delinquentme_ | come on. | 17:05 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_: biologists are biologists. believe it or not most of their education is theoretical, most of their WORK is labor | 17:05 |
| delinquentme_ | realllly? | 17:05 |
| delinquentme_ | nah man make everyone a fucking programmer :D | 17:05 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: if you want to design somethng new go right ahead | 17:05 |
| delinquentme_ | we live in a world of machines | 17:05 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah i want to lol | 17:05 |
| kanzure | but it might not fit your market | 17:05 |
| delinquentme_ | whats the quickest way to $$ though | 17:06 |
| kanzure | haha there you go | 17:06 |
| Tyrant | : / | 17:06 |
| delinquentme_ | im saying | 17:06 |
| delinquentme_ | what downside | 17:06 |
| delinquentme_ | is there to making bio a programming language centric operation | 17:06 |
| delinquentme_ | OMG people learn more | 17:06 |
| delinquentme_ | come on | 17:06 |
| delinquentme_ | we all learn more as it is | 17:06 |
| delinquentme_ | you're learning new management software and other stuff within a lab | 17:07 |
| kanzure | nobody said there is a downside | 17:07 |
| delinquentme_ | shit at least this is scalabled | 17:07 |
| delinquentme_ | derp | 17:07 |
| delinquentme_ | scaleable | 17:07 |
| kanzure | they won't pay for it right now, or possibly ever | 17:07 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, so where is the lab going then | 17:07 |
| kanzure | i'm totally down for useful/correct/architecturally-useful designs | 17:07 |
| Tyrant | like i said, my goal is a command like "Add 20uL of Reagent B to Sample A and then run them through Mass Spectrometer #2" | 17:07 |
| kanzure | which is why i keep talking about skdb or downloadable hardware | 17:07 |
| kanzure | "pretty printed protocols" i should really do that sometime | 17:08 |
| kanzure | instead of 1 page of compressed text, make it a 5 page icon-based beautiful-on-the-eyes document | 17:08 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, but cant you see | 17:08 |
| delinquentme_ | that that is already programatic | 17:08 |
| delinquentme_ | its a simple ass language | 17:08 |
| delinquentme_ | but its syntactic | 17:08 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: so are you arguing that the market will buy that? | 17:08 |
| delinquentme_ | im not saying drive the shit with C++ pointers and all its var funk | 17:09 |
| Tyrant | Then why teach them how to program? | 17:09 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, the market will buy this because 1) no lost protocols 2) iterative speed on subsequence protocol improvements 3) sheer SPEED and 4) everything else is being automated | 17:09 |
| Tyrant | use NTLK and CLIPS to parse that statement into actions | 17:09 |
| kanzure | timeliness isn't something that labs care that much about.. | 17:10 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, it seems you're kind of designing this | 17:10 |
| delinquentme_ | to work with the current hissy fit of " im a scientist ... not a programer" | 17:10 |
| delinquentme_ | anyone like that | 17:10 |
| delinquentme_ | is a shitty scientist | 17:10 |
| delinquentme_ | ill say that now | 17:10 |
| delinquentme_ | if you cant see the evolution of this | 17:10 |
| delinquentme_ | you're lazy | 17:10 |
| Tyrant | heh | 17:11 |
| kanzure | ok i'm still trying to figure out what's going on here | 17:11 |
| kanzure | you're talking about two things: | 17:11 |
| kanzure | 1) things that make sense to technologists | 17:11 |
| kanzure | 2) markets | 17:11 |
| kanzure | do you want to work on this even if #2 doesn't add up? | 17:11 |
| delinquentme_ | like Tyrant you're absolutely right | 17:11 |
| delinquentme_ | like that would work | 17:11 |
| delinquentme_ | it seems like additional work | 17:11 |
| delinquentme_ | but like if the scientists you're working with | 17:11 |
| jrayhawk | i would like to add that scientists are not architects are not engineers | 17:12 |
| jrayhawk | attempting to treat them as such is inviting frustration | 17:12 |
| delinquentme_ | and yes, perhaps NLP will get to the point where someone can destroy the shit out of their language and it will still correctly extract a protocol step | 17:12 |
| delinquentme_ | buy damn its like HTML | 17:12 |
| delinquentme_ | doesnt everyone know how to do it? | 17:12 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: the way i see it, | 17:12 |
| kanzure | it's kind of like gentoo | 17:12 |
| kanzure | people who know what they want will go for gentoo | 17:12 |
| delinquentme_ | so why are we worrying about it | 17:12 |
| kanzure | but it doesn't have to make money | 17:12 |
| kanzure | so are you still interested in longevity/rejuvenation even if it doesn't make you money? | 17:12 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, absolutely | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | hold up | 17:13 |
| kanzure | ok then what's the problem.. get to work | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | haha damn | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | face palm | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | ok | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | lets do it | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | PCR machine >> lets you amplify DNA | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | right? | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | FASter cheaper better than before | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | ( TOOL ) | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | money | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | is a TOOL | 17:13 |
| delinquentme_ | for this reason | 17:14 |
| delinquentme_ | we seek it | 17:14 |
| delinquentme_ | yes for the whatever else | 17:14 |
| delinquentme_ | but the faster something makes $$ | 17:14 |
| delinquentme_ | example | 17:14 |
| delinquentme_ | JCVI | 17:14 |
| delinquentme_ | some of the best talent right? | 17:14 |
| delinquentme_ | ( right ) | 17:14 |
| delinquentme_ | you know the reason | 17:14 |
| delinquentme_ | bc hes bamf true.. but also .. he can pay for the best | 17:15 |
| delinquentme_ | jrayhawk, so if we create a tool .. which allows automation of all scientific processes | 17:16 |
| delinquentme_ | and the most effective way to conduct research is through programming | 17:16 |
| delinquentme_ | whats the advantage of sticking people into a lab and letting them possibly make mistakes | 17:16 |
| delinquentme_ | its that initial hump of automating everything in the lab | 17:16 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, ^^^ thats for you too | 17:16 |
| Tyrant | lol | 17:17 |
| delinquentme_ | ? | 17:17 |
| delinquentme_ | whats funny | 17:17 |
| delinquentme_ | yes automate everything >> difficult | 17:18 |
| Tyrant | that is the way it will hopefully end up but if you want to contribute it you need to see all of the hurdles | 17:18 |
| delinquentme_ | true. | 17:18 |
| kanzure | or just make it and not care about the money | 17:18 |
| delinquentme_ | sorry im deep breathing :D | 17:18 |
| delinquentme_ | chilling | 17:18 |
| Tyrant | and theres no sense in teaching any biologists to program. just give them a pretty UI that they can learn | 17:18 |
| Tyrant | and instruments that can interoperate | 17:18 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, you think im gonna automate a whole lab w/o cash? | 17:18 |
| delinquentme_ | thats weird | 17:18 |
| kanzure | why not? use your own money | 17:19 |
| kanzure | i'm not a fucking bank | 17:19 |
| kanzure | i can't fund you guys forever | 17:19 |
| delinquentme_ | lolol | 17:19 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, im ok with this | 17:19 |
| jrayhawk | Universities also tend to have the resources for these kinds of projects. | 17:19 |
| delinquentme_ | UI as well as API can work harmoniously | 17:19 |
| Tyrant | My api: start byte, command byte, length byte, extra data, end byte. | 17:20 |
| Tyrant | thats all the api you need | 17:20 |
| Tyrant | no xml no json | 17:20 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, | 17:20 |
| delinquentme_ | ghetto | 17:20 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: i don't know if you remember, | 17:20 |
| delinquentme_ | lol | 17:21 |
| kanzure | but i was starting this transhumanist co-op | 17:21 |
| kanzure | where the members would share tools and lab space and funding, | 17:21 |
| delinquentme_ | oh? | 17:21 |
| kanzure | and possibly some front-end for making cash (consulting, kits, other bullshit but nothing specific) | 17:21 |
| Tyrant | It's not ghetto. it's simple. weren't you the one preaching simplicity? | 17:21 |
| delinquentme_ | Tyrant, like thats the proto that my bot uses but it could be better | 17:21 |
| delinquentme_ | tyrant when you extrapolate this machine | 17:21 |
| Tyrant | It's simple and requires no extraneous parsing | 17:21 |
| delinquentme_ | to the scale of a lab | 17:21 |
| delinquentme_ | do you want to be the guy going through the protos being passed around | 17:22 |
| delinquentme_ | nah fuck that | 17:22 |
| delinquentme_ | if you can give it a unique searchable string | 17:22 |
| delinquentme_ | something that has meaning | 17:22 |
| delinquentme_ | that data is of much higher quality | 17:22 |
| delinquentme_ | sure binary works now | 17:22 |
| Tyrant | Not for a microcontroller it's not | 17:22 |
| delinquentme_ | for a human it is | 17:22 |
| delinquentme_ | debugging. | 17:22 |
| delinquentme_ | its cool now .. but im just thinking once it gets big | 17:23 |
| delinquentme_ | something with a little more description might be helpful | 17:23 |
| Tyrant | The byte code corresponds directly to commands | 17:23 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: be careful.. | 17:23 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: next he will ask you to run node.js on it | 17:23 |
| delinquentme_ | so why design it in byte code and introduce an unnecessary step | 17:23 |
| jrayhawk | hee | 17:23 |
| kanzure | and ningx | 17:23 |
| Tyrant | delinquentme_:... PARSING is unnecessary | 17:24 |
| Tyrant | no one will be programming in it | 17:24 |
| Tyrant | i have a 1:1 python interface | 17:24 |
| delinquentme_ | ;D | 17:24 |
| delinquentme_ | turn that lab into a mother fucking CPU :D | 17:24 |
| Tyrant | python outputs to libusb | 17:24 |
| kanzure | libhdi? :/ | 17:24 |
| Tyrant | hmm? | 17:25 |
| delinquentme_ | yeh i dont get either | 17:25 |
| kanzure | it's another usb interface that i've used with python | 17:25 |
| kanzure | doesn't matter | 17:25 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, SKDB? | 17:25 |
| Tyrant | Well actually it's currently serial, not even usb | 17:25 |
| Tyrant | but im expecting to switch to USB when moving to XMOS | 17:25 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: http://gnusha.org/skdb/ | 17:25 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: it's apt-get for hardware.. or it's supposed to be, if i get more people to help | 17:26 |
| Tyrant | kanzure: what would you recommend for publishing open hardware stuff? | 17:27 |
| kanzure | as many file formats as you have, | 17:27 |
| kanzure | .step, .iges, brlcad are all ok formats | 17:27 |
| kanzure | heekscad, freecad, brlcad, opencascade, pythonocc are all moderately workable open source cad systems | 17:28 |
| kanzure | there's a git repository structure proposed in the skdb project | 17:28 |
| kanzure | with a metadata.yaml file that lists.. well, metadata | 17:28 |
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| kanzure | and for BOMs etc. | 17:28 |
| delinquentme_ | you guys think im safe with a student license for solidworks to publish open source stuff ja? | 17:29 |
| Tyrant | kanzure: btw, http://angel.co/labminds | 17:30 |
| Tyrant | cool little piece of automation | 17:30 |
| jrayhawk | There's probably a not-for-profit clause in there that's more relevant. | 17:30 |
| kanzure | unfortunately people would have to download solidworks | 17:30 |
| delinquentme_ | what is Nespresso | 17:30 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: they pay them $60/h? what? | 17:31 |
| kanzure | oh lab techs are $20/h | 17:31 |
| Tyrant | Their math is suspect either wa | 17:31 |
| Tyrant | 8 billion my ass | 17:31 |
| Tyrant | but the instrument is nevertheless cool | 17:31 |
| delinquentme_ | dude. | 17:31 |
| delinquentme_ | this is sweet | 17:31 |
| kanzure | hey i want some android/iphone books where do i download them | 17:39 |
| kanzure | i'm still confused about torrent trackers or which ones are useful these days | 17:39 |
| Tyrant | library.nu | 17:44 |
| kanzure | is gnutella still happening? | 17:44 |
| delinquentme_ | wait. | 17:48 |
| delinquentme_ | here we go. | 17:48 |
| delinquentme_ | so | 17:48 |
| delinquentme_ | biology, being the complex science that it is | 17:48 |
| delinquentme_ | and to parallel your sentiments Tyrant about multiplexing of experiments | 17:49 |
| delinquentme_ | is the huge number of iterative tests we can run most readily solved through UIs or programming languages | 17:49 |
| delinquentme_ | it just seems to me the natural answer is that for anything to be parallelized >>> programming = answer | 17:50 |
| Tyrant | kanzure: ever used pythonocc to work with STEP files? | 17:52 |
| kanzure | yes | 17:53 |
| kanzure | Tyrant: all the time.. | 17:53 |
| Tyrant | how well does it work, speed and conversion wise | 17:55 |
| kanzure | oh it's adequate | 17:56 |
| kanzure | and it works.. | 17:56 |
| kanzure | but if you ever need to fix a bug in it on your own, ha ha ha :) | 17:56 |
| kanzure | it's just a mess | 17:56 |
| Tyrant | great | 17:57 |
| Tyrant | lol | 17:57 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, do you know anyone with tickets to openhardware summit? | 17:57 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme_: i know the organizers of the summit.. you should give a talk | 18:22 |
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| delinquentme_ | i didnt think i was gonna be able to go :D | 18:22 |
| delinquentme_ | and its past registration date | 18:22 |
| delinquentme_ | aside from that yeah i'd talk about peristaltic pumps | 18:23 |
| delinquentme_ | so yeah kanzure if you can get a extra ticket thatd be aweso | 18:35 |
| kanzure | why wolud you need a ticket to give a talk | 18:36 |
| kanzure | would | 18:36 |
| delinquentme_ | http://citizensciencequarterly.com/2011/06/22/open-source-inkjet-based-oligonucleotide-synthesizer-and-microarrayer/ | 18:36 |
| delinquentme_ | oh... | 18:36 |
| delinquentme_ | *shrug* i just wanna go | 18:36 |
| delinquentme_ | i guess then a presenter is allowed in free? | 18:36 |
| kanzure | posam cost $20k or something to build | 18:38 |
| kanzure | really big/expensive | 18:38 |
| kanzure | some sort of crazy inert gas atmosphere | 18:38 |
| delinquentme_ | ooooo | 18:38 |
| delinquentme_ | fancy | 18:38 |
| kanzure | with apologies to the rest of the civilized world, | 18:55 |
| kanzure | i present to you my automatic ai-class.com registration spambot | 18:55 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/ai-class.py | 18:55 |
| kanzure | oops now it's up | 19:22 |
| kanzure | i should switch it to lxml | 19:24 |
| delinquentme_ | lol this does what | 19:51 |
| kanzure | increases the ai-class.com registration counter | 19:51 |
| kanzure | people are making a big deal out of the fact that 100,000 people registered | 19:52 |
| kanzure | as if it matters or something | 19:52 |
| kanzure | so assuming it somehow matters and would somehow influence future offerings, why not artificially inflate the number to something even more ridiculous | 19:52 |
| delinquentme_ | cool with my | 19:53 |
| delinquentme_ | so as far as your alibi | 19:53 |
| delinquentme_ | we were playing wow? | 19:53 |
| delinquentme_ | ( this whole time.. non stop ) | 19:53 |
| kanzure | my alibi is that i am you | 19:53 |
| delinquentme_ | lololol | 19:54 |
| Tyrant | oh kanzure why would you do that to yourself | 19:55 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, how did you assemble this list? | 19:55 |
| Tyrant | actually wait | 19:55 |
| Tyrant | why would you do that to delinquentme_?! | 19:56 |
| delinquentme_ | there are some legit foreign names in here | 19:56 |
| jrayhawk | revenge for attempting to inflict XML upon microcontrollers | 19:56 |
| delinquentme_ | lol | 19:56 |
| delinquentme_ | winnifred | 19:56 |
| delinquentme_ | ^^^ win. | 19:56 |
| delinquentme_ | ooo | 19:57 |
| * Tyrant high fives jrayhawk | 19:57 | |
| delinquentme_ | face book maybe | 19:57 |
| delinquentme_ | friends of friends etc.. groups .. parse names | 19:57 |
| jrayhawk | I would've just stolen it from 'rig', personally. | 19:58 |
| Tyrant | Alexander Alexanders | 19:58 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: census.gov data | 20:02 |
| kanzure | i have various word lists in case of emergencies | 20:03 |
| kanzure | .. this was such an emergency. | 20:03 |
| kanzure | i actually pasted the link to that script before i wrote it... heh | 20:03 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: what is rig | 20:13 |
| kanzure | oh, random identity generator | 20:13 |
| jrayhawk | i guess census.gov scrapings would be a good thing to contribute to rig | 20:29 |
| delinquentme_ | modified ecstasy "attacks blood cancers" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-14572284 | 20:32 |
| delinquentme_ | THIS IS SO SO AWESOME | 20:33 |
| klafka | 'modified ecstasy' | 20:35 |
| klafka | gah more pop sci articles need to have links to real science | 20:35 |
| klafka | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21850491 | 20:36 |
| klafka | anyone able to get the full article? | 20:37 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: http://www.census.gov/genealogy/names/dist.female.first | 20:39 |
| kanzure | http://www.census.gov/genealogy/names/dist.male.first | 20:39 |
| kanzure | http://www.census.gov/genealogy/names/dist.all.last | 20:39 |
| kanzure | cat dist.male.first | awk 'BEGIN { FS = " " }; { print tolower($1) }' > first.names.txt | 20:39 |
| kanzure | etc.. | 20:39 |
| kanzure | klafka: i wrote a website once that does that | 20:39 |
| kanzure | klafka: it worked as a bookmarklet | 20:39 |
| kanzure | so once you came to a popsci article, you'd click the tool and it would take you to the motherfucking pdf | 20:39 |
| kanzure | worked mostly based on user contributions though :( | 20:40 |
| kanzure | god this looks awful/painful http://www.thevoxelagents.com/agentlogs/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/JNI_presentation.pdf | 20:44 |
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| klafka | aah | 20:47 |
| klafka | heh | 20:47 |
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| kanzure | :( what am i getting myself into | 21:47 |
| kanzure | http://www.koushikdutta.com/2009/01/jni-in-android-and-foreword-of-why-jni.html | 21:47 |
| kanzure | ok boys and girls time to grab your hp touchpads for $100 | 22:00 |
| kanzure | http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3220862 | 22:01 |
| superkuh | Out of stock | 22:05 |
| kanzure | who is this dmitry skiba person and why do i keep running into it | 22:19 |
| -!- mayko [~mayko@69-36-214-157.dynamic.dsl.skybest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 22:44 | |
| -!- jmil [~jmil@c-68-81-252-40.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jmil] | 23:06 | |
| jrayhawk | i don't really get tablets | 23:27 |
| jrayhawk | they seem like all the disadvantages of a phone with all the disadvantages of a laptop | 23:27 |
| jrayhawk | actually more than the disadvantage of a phone; phones tend to come with keyboards | 23:28 |
| jrayhawk | maybe it's a futurist thing | 23:29 |
| kanzure | under what situation would i use swig on android's ndk/jni? | 23:43 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i'm pretty sure it's just that people have marginally more disposable income | 23:43 |
| kanzure | aboo? http://android.wooyd.org/JNIExample/files/JNIExample.pdf | 23:45 |
| kanzure | this looks bizarre http://dmitryskiba.github.com/itoa-jnipp/ it seems to wrap java classes back into the android ndk | 23:46 |
| -!- BaldimerBrandybo [~PixelScum@ip68-231-176-15.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:52 | |
| -!- PixelScum [~PixelScum@ip68-231-176-15.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 23:54 | |
| --- Log closed Sat Aug 20 00:00:32 2011 | ||
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